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The Black Effect Podcast Network is the largest podcast publisher dedicated to black listeners, Charlamagne, the God calls it the place where black voices are heard. We have the most influential and trusted voices in black culture. There's comedy on the eighty five s show Sportstalk on all the smoke, justice and cultural and street politicians dating and relationships on horrible decisions and more experienced. All black. Everything, everything. Black is the black officer. Listen to all the Black Effect podcast network shows on Apple podcasts.


It's safe to say Twenty was one of the most difficult years ever for so many. That's why I'm here to ask you, how can I help? My name is Dr. Gail Saltz.


I'm a clinical associate professor of psychiatry at the New York Presbyterian Hospital, host of the new weekly podcast How Can I Help With Dr. Gail Saltz, brought to you by the Seneca Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio.


Join me every Friday where you can ask your most pressing questions and I will answer with specific advice and understanding. Listen to how can I help with Dr. Gail Saltz on the I Heart radio app, on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.


Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class A production of I Heart Radio. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy Wilson. And I'm Holly Fry. Way back in 2013, we did an episode on Edward Jenner and the smallpox vaccine. I think that's also been a Saturday classic. More recently in that episode, we mentioned Jenner's efforts to send the vaccine to anybody who needed it. But we really didn't get into any kind of detail about what it actually took to distribute the smallpox vaccine around the world.


We did briefly mention the voyage of Francisco Javier Doubleness, who carried the smallpox vaccine from Spain to the Americas using a chain of young boys who acted as living vaccine hosts. And in that 2013 episode, I said I wanted to do an episode on that someday. Given how much focus there is on vaccines in the world right now and on the logistics of actually getting the vaccines to the people who need them, this seemed like a good time for it.


But then, as I was researching this expedition, which I imagined is like a straightforward one part episode of the show, I kept going down a lot of rabbit holes, like how the vaccine got to other parts of the world and how it wound up already being established in some of the places that Bomas went on this expedition, like he would show up somewhere and they would be like, oh, we're vaccinated already. How did that happen? So this grew into a two parter.


Today, we are going to talk about the smallpox vaccine spread from England, where Agenor lived into other parts of the world and will set the stage for what led the Spanish empire to launch this huge expedition to take the vaccine to its colonies. And the next time we're going to talk about the expedition itself and its impact. And just as a heads up. The process of vaccinating people for smallpox and for propagating that vaccine in the 18th and 19th centuries, that was gross.


Like I kind of recapped the subject of this episode for some friends.


And I was like, I'm not going to get into the details as we're sitting here having this casual conversation because it's kind of gross. And a friend of mine who is a nurse was like, oh, I know how they did it and now I'm upset. So I've tried to put most specific medical details into, like one easily skippable part of the episode. But it's really not possible to talk about the details of this expedition and the challenges they faced without referring back to that at least somewhat.


So if things like sores and bodily fluids and needles really bother you, these two episodes might be a little more of a challenge.


We're not going to repeat the entirety of our 2013 smallpox episode, but we do need to set the stage with a little bit about the disease and its vaccine, including some of the details that were not in that episode. So smallpox is caused by the variola virus. It has been eradicated in the wild today. But while it was circulating freely in the world, it was a devastating illness in places that had a long history of smallpox outbreaks. It was typically fatal in about one third of cases.


But when it was introduced into places that had never encountered it before, it killed closer to half of the people who contracted. The disease was also particularly deadly in babies with a much higher mortality rate of between 80 and 90 percent. People who survived smallpox were typically immune to it afterward, but often they had extensive scarring and long term health effects. As early as the 11th century, practitioners in Asia developed a technique called very lation, which used material from smallpox sores or scabs to deliberately infect people with the disease.


And most of the time, people who contracted smallpox in this way had a milder and less deadly infection than they would have otherwise. And very lation was about 80 percent effective. Very lation could still cause fatal complications, though it involved transferring material from one person's body to another. So if that first person had some other illness, that could also be transmitted along with the inoculation and some of these illnesses that were otherwise involved were serious. These were things like syphilis and hepatitis and very lation was in use for centuries before people really made this connection.


About two percent of the people who were very related died either from smallpox or from another illness or infection that they contracted during the process. It was also possible for other people to develop full full-blown smallpox after exposure to someone who had been very related. So while very lation was safer than an uncontrolled smallpox outbreak, it still had some very serious risks. The practice of very lation spread first from Asia into Africa, and it's possible that enslaved Africans practiced it amongst themselves in the Americas.


But Europeans and European colonial officials didn't really start to become aware of it or involved with it until the 18th century. One of the biggest early proponents of regulation in Europe was Lady Mary Worley Montagu, who was the daughter of a duke and survived smallpox when she was 26. A couple of years later, her brother died from it. She learned about very lation while her husband was serving as the British ambassador to the Ottoman Empire. She had her son very elated in 1718 and her daughter in 1721, and she became a vocal advocate for this practice.


Also in 1721, very lation became more popular and more widely known in North America after a smallpox outbreak in Boston, Massachusetts, the Reverend Cotton Mather learned about very lation from an enslaved man named Onishi, Miss Mather and physicians. Abdelal Boylston used very lation to try to control the outbreak.


Legislation was introduced into Chile as early as the 1960s. But for the rest of the Spanish colonies in the Americas, it came a little later. Again, this is like the colonial authorities knowledge of it, not necessarily whether enslaved people were performing it among themselves. Dr Esteban Morales administered the first documented variation in New Spain in what's now Mexico in 1779, and the practice was introduced into other parts of the Spanish Empire in the 17th, 70s and 80s as well.


So we noted earlier that variation was still a risky procedure, and efforts to introduce it as a preventative measure could have unintended and devastating effects beyond complications for individual recipients. In 1789, a smallpox outbreak in Australia spread to its Aboriginal peoples who had. Encountered the disease before the source of this outbreak might have been smallpox material that British doctors brought to Australia for the purposes of inoculating people, although there is some debate about whether that material would have still been infective by the time the outbreak started in the late 18th century, various people in Europe noticed that milkmaids seemed to be immune to smallpox.


The connection here was another viral illness called cowpox, which is much milder and less lethal than smallpox. Edward Jenner was one of the people who made this connection and also one of the people who tried to intentionally expose people to cowpox with the hope of giving them immunity to smallpox. The word vaccine actually comes from the Latin word for cow.


For this reason, Jenner did this for the first time in 1796. And although he wasn't the first to try it or even the first to do it successfully, he did devote himself to it afterward. Later, he published a pamphlet called An Inquiry into the causes and Effects of Various Vaccination, which detailed his work with the vaccine and became a major source of information about it. He built an immunization clinic in his garden, which he called the temple of Xynthia, and he sent vaccine samples to anyone who asked for it.


As Tracy mentioned earlier, although it was still possible to transmit other diseases during the vaccine process, intentionally exposing someone to cowpox was far less risky than very lation was. So here is what this process actually involves, which will be the most squeamish part of these episodes. You would start by draining and collecting the limb from an active cowpox sore, and then you would use a lancet, a needle or some other instrument to pierce the skin of the vaccine recipients, typically on their arm, you would introduce the lymph into that opening.


And then if everything went well, the vaccine recipient would contract cowpox. And nine or 10 days later, they would have a sword that was ready to be harvested to make more vaccine. And then having recovered from cowpox, they would be immune to smallpox for years afterward. Ginner actually thought this immunity was for the rest of their life, but that turned out not to be true. Gener and others worked out some ways to preserve cowpox limb for future use.


This included impregnating silk threads with lymph and allowing them to dry or sealing lymph and vials. Another method was to dry the lymph and seal it between glass plates to be reconstituted before use. Eventually, people worked out ways to preserve viable lymph on the ends of Lancet's. But none of these methods were perfect. The lymph lost its potency over time, especially in hot or humid weather. And it was extremely common for Jenner and others to send vaccine samples that just did not work by the time they got to the recipient.


So the most reliable way to keep a viable supply of smallpox vaccine, especially for a long time, were in hot weather was by propagating it through the people who were being vaccinated. This was also known as the arm to arm method. Nine or 10 days after being vaccinated, people would need to return to the practitioner so their lymph could be used to make more vaccines than those recipients would do the same thing. And that would go on and on like a chain keeping a vaccine program going with this process required.


Some planning numbers vary based on the skill of the practitioner and the cowpox saw itself. But most of the time you could get multiple doses of vaccine from one cowpox saw. So at least in theory, the number of people you could vaccinate would grow over time, even if you were also trying to preserve some lymph as a backup. But if people stopped returning to have their lymph collected or if a community ran out of people to vaccinate, the chain would break.


Cowpox is also rare enough in the wild that it could take some time to find a new source if the human chain broke. At one point, Jenner had to stop his work for two years because he ran out of lymph and no active cases could be found in cattle.


So it was relatively easy to introduce smallpox vaccine into places with mild weather that were geographically close to each other. But beyond that, it got a lot harder. We'll talk about that after a sponsor break. I'm Bridget Todd, host of the podcast. There are no girls on the Internet, and I teach people to be skeptical online from covid and vaccine misinformation to Q And on conspiracy theories, we already know that this information can hold our democracy hostage, threaten our communities and spread chaos, uncertainty and fear.


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I'm Norma Kamali, I've been a fashion designer for over 50 years, and I'm so excited to tell you about my brand new book, name of it is I Am Invincible.


I'm Invincible is a handbook for women that gives me the opportunity to share my experiences and tips about beauty, style, wellness and living your best life. These are solutions that you can use to go through each decade. When a woman feels good about herself, she is invincible. You can find I am invincible wherever books are sold. And listen for more from me on some of your favorite I podcasts. Edward Jenner spent so much of his time and energy sending people smallpox vaccine that he started calling himself the vaccine clerk to the world, but a lot of other people were instrumental in introducing the vaccine beyond Britain and Ireland.


And some of those introductions were pretty complicated.


John DeCaro was a Swiss physician who moved to Vienna because of its prominence in the world of medicine in August of 1799. He performed the first smallpox vaccination in the Austro Hungarian empire. He got his limb from another Swiss physician, Alexander Gaspar Marcet, who is living in Edinburgh and had become close friends with Ginner. And after his first successful vaccination, KERO aggressively distributed the vaccine into Central Europe, Russia and Eastern Asia.


John DeCaro was also involved in introducing the vaccine into the Ottoman Empire. He was at a banquet with Mary and William Hamilton Nesbitt, whose daughter Mary was married to Thomas Bruce, the seventh Earl of Elgin. Yes, this is the same Elgon that we talked about in our two parter on the Parthenon Marbles. After this banquet, the Nesbitt's told the Elgin's about this vaccine. Elgin wrote to Cairo in September of 1800 to ask for a sample. When he got it, Elgin used that sample to vaccinate his son and then used his son's vaccine site to start vaccinating other people.


The Elgin's introduced a large scale vaccination program in Constantinople, and they also carried the vaccine to Greece. Meanwhile, two English doctors, Joseph A. Marshall and John Walker, worked with GENER to get passage aboard the HMS Endymion, where they introduced the vaccine to Minorca, Gibraltar and Malta over the last few months of eighteen hundred.


As all this was happening, the vaccine was also being introduced in North America. Gener sent samples of smallpox lymph to Newfoundland in early 1800 at the request of his friend John Clinch Clinch to use the threads that he received to vaccinate his family and then from there to vaccinate roughly 700 other people in Newfoundland. Benjamin Waterhouse, who was a professor at Harvard Medical School, also requested Jenners lymph in 1800, which he used to vaccinate his son. Then he used that son's vaccination site to prepare the vaccine for another son.


After these and other successful vaccinations, Waterhouse gave some of the vaccine to then Vice President Thomas Jefferson. This actually took them a few tries. The vaccine kept breaking down in the Virginia heat until Jefferson devised a nested box that used a layer of water to keep the inner contents cool. Once he had working vaccine, Jefferson tested it on his family and his enslaved workforce. After Jefferson became president, he and Waterhouse started planning mass vaccination campaigns, and Waterhouse tried to maintain a monopoly on the vaccine for his own financial gain.


This did not really work out for him, though. Getting the vaccine from Britain to northeast North America was relatively easy. A package ship could make the journey in roughly 20 to 30 days, and during that time it was in the cool climate of the North Atlantic. So when Waterhouse tried to make himself the sole source of vaccine in the United States, people just started writing directly to Jenner to get it from him instead.


I love that during all of this, Jefferson also started using the vaccine as a diplomatic tool with indigenous nations. Europeans introduction of smallpox into the Americas has been absolutely devastating to indigenous peoples. So then using a vaccine as a diplomatic gesture is really horrifying from a human rights perspective. Jefferson also ordered the Lewis and Clark expedition to carry a supply of the vaccine with them. But in Lewis's words, their supply had, quote, lost its virtue by the time they got it.


And there is no record of the expedition actually vaccinating anyone and no one.


Empress Dowager Marie Fair to Ravina, the widow of Tsar Paul, the first requested smallpox from Prussia, and then that was used to immunize orphans in Moscow. The first to be vaccinated was a young boy from Moscow Foundling Home who the Empress renamed Vaccine Off. Vaccination was then granted a lifetime pension and mixed feelings on that whole thing.


Me, to all the successful vaccine introductions that we have talked about so far have been over relatively short and relatively cool distances for longer, hotter trips. Things became a lot more complicated than just putting some threads of vaccine on a packet ship. Gener tried to send multiple samples of vaccine to the Indian subcontinent by sea, all of which were either lost in shipwreck. Or lost their potency before arriving, so he started trying to persuade Lord Hobart, secretary of state for war in the colonies, to send the vaccine using 20 unvaccinated people who would act as a living chain of hosts when Hobart didn't really seem interested in doing this.


Jenner offered to pay for it himself, and he only let this subject drop when he learned that the vaccine had been successfully introduced into India, which was also thanks to John DeCaro, who we talked about earlier. Caro had started getting his vaccine limp from Italy rather than from Britain. He sent some from Vienna to Constantinople, which is now Istanbul, where somebody was vaccinated with it. That person then traveled to Baghdad, where their lymph was used to immunize someone else.


That person traveled from Baghdad to the port city of Basra.


From there, the vaccine was carried by sea to Bombay, now known as Mumbai, on a ship appropriately called the recovery, with vaccines administered on the ship to keep the chain going. The first successful vaccination record on the Indian subcontinent was administered on June 14th, 1882. The recipient was an industrial age three, who was the daughter of a servant in a British captain's household. More than 1000 other people were vaccinated in Bombay over the next four months, and from there the vaccine was introduced to other parts of India.


Beyond this, the vaccine was introduced into several other parts of the world, again using these arm to arm chains of hosts in the early 19th century. Sometimes this was after other efforts had already failed. For example, the first shipment of vaccines since you Batavia, which is now Jakarta, Indonesia, had lost its potency by the time it arrived. A second successful attempt in 1884 involves 12 children who formed an arm to arm train during the sea voyage.


The first successful smallpox vaccinations in Australia were also administered in May of that year, although it's not totally clear which of the attempts to send the vaccine there was.


The successful one in 800 Portuguese authorities called for vaccination to be introduced into its colony in Brazil, but it's a roundabout way of doing so. Took five years, a group of enslaved children was transported from Bahia to Lisbon so that they could act as an arm to arm Cheyne on the return trip back to Brazil. And then in March of 1884, that plan was activated and the Prince Regent had his sons vaccinated in Lisbon to form the first link in that arm to arm chain as they traveled back to South America, got about the same time Britain was trying to introduce the vaccine to Fort Marlborough in western Indonesia.


And this involved a chain of four and five year old children from the Bengal Military Orphans Society. Many of these were either the orphaned children of British soldiers or they were the children of British soldiers born out of wedlock to Indian mothers. These children departed aboard the Carmarthen in December of 1883 in the care of two Indian nurses, and they arrived at the fort in February of 1884 after successful vaccinations at before the children were returned back to the Orphans Society. You have probably noticed that most of the arm to arm vaccination chains that we have talked about use children as hosts.


And there were several reasons for this. One was that widespread smallpox outbreaks tended to recur with several years in between. So young children were the least likely to have already been exposed.


If you tried to vaccinate someone who was already immune, no cowpox or would develop and that would break the chain.


And another was more of a publicity angle. And many parts of the world, there was a lot of resistance to the idea of injecting people with something that had come from an animal in general. There were just a lot of different social and cultural and religious objections to the whole idea of vaccination. So children were often seen as innocent and pure. And often when the vaccine was introduced into a new location, the first recipients were intentionally chosen to be children from, quote, good families to sort of serve as an example for the rest of the community.


Before we take a quick break, we have a couple of other quick points to note. One was that even though it was geographically close to other places where the vaccine was already in use, Japan was relatively late in receiving the vaccine.


Japan's borders at this point were closed to most of the rest of the world. And even the Chinese and the Dutch who had trading privileges with Japan were not allowed to bring children into port. Various efforts to send preserved lymph to Japan failed before viable vaccine finally arrived in 1849.


The other is that there just really does not seem to have been a meaningful. To introduce the vaccine or knowledge about the vaccine into sub-Saharan Africa during all this, if there was such an effort, I sure did not find it in my research. As we noted earlier, very lation had been established in many parts of Africa for centuries before Agenor started propagating his vaccine. Most documented efforts to try to control smallpox in sub-Saharan Africa focus on very lation rather than vaccination.


The shift to vaccination seems to have followed the scramble for Africa, in which European nations divided the continent of Africa up amongst themselves. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the earliest clear records of smallpox vaccine campaigns in sub-Saharan Africa really start with European colonial administrations in the early 20th century, rather than when we are talking about decades before that. We'll talk about what led to the Bahamas expedition, specifically after we first take a quick sponsor break. So everybody is talking about this information right now, and rightly so, but did you know that some of the first people to raise the alarm about the threat this information poses to our democracy and our communities or black women, but their voices were largely ignored.


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Since we're going to be talking about Spain's efforts to vaccinate its colonies against smallpox, we want to touch on a little bit about the disease's history in the Americas. Europeans introduced smallpox into the Americas in the 16th century, and the likely earliest case was on the island of Hispaniola in 1918. The first documented transmission on a South American continent was reportedly from an enslaved African who had been transported there by Pinfield, the Nava's of Spain, and 15 20 because the indigenous people of the Americas had never been exposed to smallpox.


They had no natural immunity to it, and the results were especially devastating and destructive. For example, the Aztec empire numbered at least 26 million people at the start of the Spanish conquest of the Americas. By 16 20, their population was reduced to roughly one point six million, with smallpox being a leading cause of death. This happened long before the development of the smallpox vaccine. And while there are reports of enslaved Africans practicing variation in the Americas, it was also before European and colonial governments were really aware of the practice.


In the late 18th century, multiple members of the Spanish royal family contracted smallpox king Carlos, the fort's brother Gabriel and his sister in law, Maria and Victoria, both died along with their newborn son, Queen Maria Luisa, and one of their daughters contracted smallpox and later recovered. But their daughter, Maria Teresa, died of it in 1794 at the age of only three. In response to all of this, the king and queen decided to have the rest of the royal family very elated.


And on November 30th, 1798, the king decreed that the general population should be very elated as well. Then, in 1799, an Italian doctor sent the king a copy of Edward Jenners book on vaccination. Many of the people who had been very elated in Spain after that 1790 decree had experienced scarring and other complications. So the king was invested in the idea of moving to a safer way of preventing smallpox within a year of the King. Getting a copy of Jenners book vaccination was widely available in Spain.


At the same time, multiple smallpox outbreaks were affecting Spain's colonies in the Americas. In December of 1882, the city government of Santa Fe to Bogota and what's now Columbia wrote to the king warning of this outbreak and asking for financial help and fighting an epidemic. This probably was not the only such communication the king received, but it's the one that's most often cited as inspiring him to figure out a way to get the smallpox vaccine to the Spanish colonies. Part of the king's motivation for all of this was definitely humanitarian.


Smallpox was contagious and deadly, and he did want to save lives. But there were also huge political and economic benefits to controlling or eliminating smallpox. It's also clear that there were business people and advisers to the king who thought that vaccinating the colonies most at risk people, including indigenous people, would ultimately bring more wealth to the Spanish empire. The Napoleonic Wars began in 1883, which made this whole situation even more urgent. Smallpox was already known to devastate armies and navies during wartime.


So Carlos the fourth directed the Council of the Andes, which governs Spain's colonies in the Americas, to assess whether it would be possible to introduce a smallpox vaccine there. The council's chief minister, Francisco Requena, sought the advice of Guatemalan doctor José Flores. In addition to being an experienced doctor, Flores had seen the devastating effects of smallpox in the Spanish colonies firsthand, and he had overseen very lation campaigns in Guatemala in the 70s, 80s and 90s.


So even before the king had started his very lation program in Spain, Flores is very election campaign had focused primarily on Miah communities, especially those living in densely populated areas outside the capital city of Nuevo Guatemala. He prioritized inoculating people who were too young to have been exposed to smallpox in earlier epidemics. He also seems to have tried to be sensitive to the needs of the people he was inoculating when it was reported that children and their parents were frightened by the medical instruments that were used for the procedure.


He developed an alternative that used a poultice made from beetles to irritate the skin rather than using instruments to cut or pierce it. Yeah, sometimes his sensitivity, I would say, got to the point of almost being patronizing, which isn't entirely surprising. But like he he did consistently take care to be like, don't traumatize people while you're doing the right. If you make them too afraid to be inoculated, none of this works, right? So Flores had left Guatemala in 1796, and then he had studied medicine all over Europe, and when he learned about Jenna's vaccination that used to cowpox, he had written to his colleagues back in Guatemala about it.


These colleagues conducted a systematic search of all the cattle in the region and they found no active cases of cowpox among them. This is not really surprising that they looked at all the cattle and didn't find any cowpox. As we noted earlier, cowpox is relatively rare in the wild, and it's also mostly found in Europe, in Asia and not in other parts of the world. So when the Council of the Andes asked for Flores to give his advice, his thoughts were based on both his experiences in Guatemala and from what he had learned while he was studying in Europe.


He suspected that a broader search for cowpox elsewhere in the Spanish colonies would also turn up nothing. He knew that preserved vaccine lymph was not likely to survive the voyage from Spain to the Americas. So he proposed to voyages, one to the Caribbean and Central America and the other to South America. He recommended that each ship use multiple redundant methods to carry smallpox vaccine. So with preserved lymph, with cattle and with an arm to arm chain of vaccinated children, Flores also recommended a system for keeping up with who had been vaccinated and who had not.


At this point in history of the Catholic Church, had enormous influence over everyday life in Spain and in its colonies, and clergy were already responsible for documenting things like baptisms and deaths. So Flores recommended that priests be the ones to keep vaccine registries as part of this whole project. He also recommended framing vaccination almost as a sacrament, with vaccine lymph being stored in churches along with consecrated oil and other religious items. At this point, medical schools and hospitals were already well established in Spain's colonies, with the first medical schools having been established by the Dominican order in the 16th century.


So Florence recommended training these existing doctors in administering vaccines and in collecting, preserving and distributing the lymph to keep the cycle going. He also recommended that the vaccines be given at no cost to the recipients, and he repeatedly stressed that anyone who is administering vaccines should take great care not to frighten or traumatize their recipients, particularly indigenous recipients who were likely to be suspicious or fearful of Spanish authorities.


Justifiably so. Really think of the Council of the Indie's agreed to a plan.


On March 22nd of 1883, the King signed a royal edict for the Spanish royal philanthropic expedition of the vaccine. A few months later, on June twenty eighth on September 1st, instructions were sent out to the rest of the empire, informing authorities in all these colonies that the expedition was coming and giving them instructions on how to prepare and what to do. When the expedition got there, the whole thing was extremely well planned and organized. With one exception, the instructions didn't say anything about how to pay for it.


This led to a range of disputes about everything from establishing a budget for a newly created vaccine board to offering lodging while the expedition was there. Although the royal philanthropic vaccine expedition did not wind up following all of Flores's advice. What followed has been described as the world's first global public health campaign. Although we will talk about in part two and as we already kind of mentioned, it wasn't entirely global. It was about mostly Spain and Spain's colonies. And we'll get into more about that next time.


In the meantime, do you have listener mail? Yeah, I do have listener mail. This is from Carl and this is this this email is from a while ago. I have some emails from a while ago that I flagged to read and then that I had to actually read them. This goes all the way back to our episode on Jim Thorpe from last November. And Carl says, Dear Holly and Tracey, as someone who has lived in Oklahoma since 2001 and works for a university that started as a Cherokee Women's Seminary School, I listen to your three part Jim Thorpe episode with great interest.


I thought I would reach out and share a curious piece of information connected to Thorpe that you might appreciate from 2001 to 2013. I worked at one of the busiest public libraries in Tulsa. Shortly after I started working there, I was asked by a patron to find books about Jim Thorpe. I was surprised to not find any on the shelf, so I steered them towards some databases to find other resources. Later, I asked one of my co-workers about the situation and they informed me that this was a problem that had been ongoing for many years.


The library continually bought books on Jim Thorpe, but some unknown person would routinely vandalize the books. Soon after, they hit the shelves, blacking out Thorpe's name and defacing photos of him. Of course, the books then had to be withdrawn. This happened across all 25 branches of the Tulsa City County Library system, and it continued through most of my tenure there as I was transitioning my career into academic libraries, they were finally starting to be able to keep the books on the shelf.


We assumed that the vandal had either moved out of Tulsa or passed away. As I listen to the podcast, I kept wondering what the vandal's motivation might have been. Were they carrying a grudge about Thorpe's position on the SAC and Fox constitution matter where they upset about the Olympics, where they connected to the family dispute over his remains? Were they simply acting out of racism since they were never caught? It will remain a mystery. I remain a faithful listener and hope you still have the MEDAD postcard I sent you a few years back.


I also continue to hope that you will put out an episode about the San Patricio, a.k.a. Saint Patrick's Battalion on your list. They were American soldiers, mostly of Irish descent, who defected and fought on the Mexican side during the Mexican-American War. Keep up the great work and happy holidays to you and yours, because this e-mail is from so long ago.


This is from Karl. So thank you, Carl, so much for sending this for a couple of reasons. One, what a fascinating and weird mystery about the fate of books on Jim Thorpe in the Tulsa library system. I am deeply curious if any of our other listeners have worked in libraries and are like, oh, man, we started having this problem with books on Jim Thorpe. That it's just weird to think that a person would take it upon themselves to do and also I just I also wanted to note I do have that postcard.


It is sitting over with. I have that postcard and I don't remember the person's name. Somebody sent us the postcard where they they they drew a picture of a fictional band named Margie and the love of Bond 10 committers after our Bredar versus McGoran episode. And I have both of those displayed in my little home office because I love them. So thank you, Carl. Thank you for this email. I am glad that the books are no longer being defaced because that sounds like an upsetting thing for everybody involved.


Having worked in a library, this is my whole side note. Fret over it. Aside from all of the like racist and social implications of it, library budgets are not expensive.


That really stinks.


To have the expenditures be defaced immediately would be incredibly frustrating. Yeah, please do not deface library books.


So again, thank you, Carl, for that email. If you would like to email us or about this or any other podcast or history podcast that I heart radio dot com.


And then we're all over social media, instant history through, you'll find our Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest and Instagram. We're going to be honest, we haven't been all that active on them in a while, but they're there.


And you can subscribe to our show and the I Heart radio app or Apple podcasts or anywhere else that you get the podcast.


Stuff you missed in history class is the production of I Heart Radio for more podcasts from My Heart radio visit by her radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. What's up, guys, I'm Rucha below, and I am Troy Millions, and we are the host of the Ernie Ilija podcast where we break down business models and examine the latest trends and findings.


We talk to the legends of business, sports and entertainment about how they got their start and most importantly, how to make their money.


Ernie Elysha is a college business class mix with pop culture.


Annualise a podcast is available. Now listen to any Your Leisure and I Heart Radio, Apple podcast or whatever you listen to podcast.


I'm doing my part. Guess I'll call you back. My name is Redock. I am Ellen Bernstein Brodsky.


This is called your grandmother. What's the matter with you? Well, in the last scene, she said to say it quickly. It is a podcast about the relationship between grandmothers and grandchildren. As my mother would have said, TACA, who would have wanted a Jewish grandmother?


Is there anything from your childhood that you miss?


Yeah, being young, you have to keep doing jump rope whenever I see him all the time. What are you talking about? Where? In the park.


It's like a girl waiting for a boyfriend by heart skips beats when she calls me.


Sometimes she accidentally live streams. We're like, who's going to tell her? I'm just hearing about this now.


Let's you to call your grandmother on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or whenever you get your pocket.