A brand new historical true crime podcast. When you lay suffering a sudden, brutal death. Starring Allison Williams. I hope you'll think of me. Erased, The Murder of Elma Sands.

She was a sweet, happy.

Virtuous girl.

Let go of me. Until she met.

That man right there. Written and created by me, Allison Flood. Is it possible, sir?

We're.

Standing by for your answer. Erased the murder of Elma Sands on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast.

If you really want to know what's going on in this country heading into the 2024 election, you have to get away from the extremes and listen to the middle.

Hi, Jan, here in Kansas.

City, Missouri. On the podcast, The Middle with Jeremy Hobson, I'll take calls live every week elevating the voices of Americans who are so important when it comes to who's in power and what gets done.

My name is Venkid.

I'm calling you from.

Atlanta, Georgia. Listen to The Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Stuff.

You Should Know, a.

Production of iHeart Radio.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and Chuck Sear and here and Jerry's here, and this is stuff you should know. It's a podcast and the three of us are part of it.

This.

Is an article on the science of kindness, which somehow put me in a bad mood. I don't know what that says about me. I don't know why.

I don't know why either. It's very odd, but I know what you're talking about. The topic overall that we're going to talk about, I think, is going to bring joy to people, but they'll get angry along the way. But hopefully by the time we're done, those who are still listening will be like, All right, I'm feeling good again.

All right, let's talk about it. Let's start with animals because, in fact, we can direct people to... We did a great episode, I think, on animal altruism? Is that what it was called?

Yeah, biological altruism.

Something like that, where we talked about this leading fact as we lead into humans and kindness, the fact that animals all throughout the animal world display acts of kindness, and many times they are altruistic in that they're not looking for anything other than to help out their bird mate or monkey mate or ant mate.

Yeah, you shored on last-minute gift ideas. Go look in on what the mackacks are giving each other.

Kindness.

So it's in animals. We know that. We have evidence of it. It's also in humans. We have pretty good evidence of that, too, that kindness is a thing. But it definitely seems the fact that it's in animals as well suggests that it's in us on some genetic level. It's not just society being like, Be kind, rewind. There's an actual imperative, a biological imperative for it. And what's odd about it is that most people would think that flies in the face of survival of the fittest. Basically, Darwin's whole jam that looking out for number one, it might not be the antithesis of kindness, but it certainly doesn't go hand in hand. And yet when you dig into Darwin, you're like, Oh, he was actually big time into kindness.

Yeah, he wrote a lot of stuff about communities cooperating and not just like, Hey, it's better if you cooperate to go kill that woolly mammoth. But compassion and empathy are markers of a healthy community and a community that will survive in a fitter way.

Yeah, like if Tuck-Tuck pushed Jib-Job out of the way, right as he was about to throw a spear into the woolly mammoth. Jib-job. And Tuk-tuk took the shot and took the mammoth down and got all the praise. He's got hurt feelings between him and Jib-Job, right? He's got to go to Jib-Job.

Are we introducing a new character?

Yes, it's happening before your very eyes.

Wow, it's exciting. In year 16.

Yeah, so in those communities and communities now, the thing that just keeps things not just going. You can go as a society in a dystopian manner, but it's not a good society, it's not thriving. I think the thing that makes it thrive and then a thriving society is much more likely to survive and reproduce because everybody wants it to because they're having a great time, are things like kindness. It's one of those lubricators that helps society go from surviving to thriving.

I agree. And it's also something that you see... Well, hopefully you see firsthand when you have a kid. If you don't, that doesn't mean that your child is broken because there are all kinds of reasons that a kid may not just be innately kind.

They might not like you.

Yeah, maybe you're the problem, dad. But the study after study has shown that many children are innately kind to other people. And that, of course, this is just me editorializing the second part. And it is later, as you grow up and be a cynical adult, is when those kindnesses go away. But you see examples all the time when you have a kid of your kid and other children and their friends and classmates being kind to one another. And it is truly heartwarming to see and makes you think like, oh, maybe... Because this is what we're talking about. Are we innately good people as humans? And those examples indicate that, yeah, we maybe are good humans to begin with. And we're going to talk about a lot of studies and experiments in this episode. But this one was one where they had a kid and they had some treats, like little candies or something.

They had goldfish or teddy grams.

I was trying to not name-check, but sure.

Those are money treats, man. They deserveWe need to lay it out there just how valuable these treats were.

And then they had these little puppet puppets. I was going to say puppet things, but puppets are puppets. So what they would do was, and what they're trying to get at is how happy did, because that's at the root of all this is like, and we'll talk later about when you receive a kindness, of course, that makes sense that you're going to feel great. But does it feel good and make you happy to do a kindness? And so they had these little puppets and they said, All right, we're going to give these puppets a goldfish sometimes, and we're going to see how happy that makes you a little kid. We're going to give you a goldfish to give to that puppet. We're going to see how happy that makes you. And then we're going to also just give you a bunch of goldfish and say, Those are yours, but maybe you should give the puppet one of your own. And the happiest kids were the ones where they are instances, at least, were the ones where the kids gave of their own stash, of their own headstash.

To.

These puppets.

They were happy seeing the puppet get a treat. Sure. But they were happier to give that puppet a treat of its.

Own, right? Yeah. And they weren't necessarily doing that so they would look good for the study, it seems.

Exactly. These were toddlers. I think they were two or less, two or younger. There's another study that found something similar that paid attention to little kids and how they responded to a grownup needing help. And they showed that kids definitely do enter, distress might be a harsh word for it, but there's a concerned state that's much better. They are concerned. And apparently, you can track that by your pupils dilating. And this is the Max Planck Institute, so they're pretty legit. But they were tracking kids' pupilates dilating. An adult would drop something and have trouble picking it up. And the kid's pupils would dilate. So they were concerned. The kids became happiest or became less concerned or unconcerned when they were able to help. But then second to that, they were also unconcerned. They stopped feeling concerned after they saw somebody else help the grown-up. So like you were saying, it's not just about getting credit. It's not just about thinking you're making adults happy. These kids were genuinely relieved to see somebody getting help even when they couldn't help them. And that helps underscore the idea that, yeah, we're biologically kind in our genes.

Did the people who organized the study account... Did they make sure they just accounted for the dilation of pupils by making sure testing these kids for methanphetamine use?

Oh, yeah. That's step one, a P test. Yeah.

All right. That checks out then.

Yeah, and the ones who they find outside of the lab hours before sunrise digging a hole, inexplicably, they pretty much just get them out of the population right away.

So people have been trying to, I guess, group and measure and come up with scales on how to measure kindness and happiness and stuff like that for a long, long time. And one way to measure it that they've come up with is something called the interpersonal reactivity index, which is an empathy measurement, which is great. There's another one called the inventory of strengths that looks at behavior, like treats kindness as a behavior. But these researchers at Huddlesfield, University of Huddlesfield in the UK in 2017, they were like, All right, let's create a scale that's going to measure different aspects of being kind and see if we can group them. And they did. They had a 40-item questionnaire and ended up clustering into three groups, the first one being benign tolerance, which is like an everyday kindness like, hey, you got groceries, why don't you take my seat on the subway? That thing.

Yeah, it's a kindness.

Yeah, it's an everyday kindness. Empathetic responsivity. Responsivity? Yeah. Yeah. As the next one. And that is more emotional and then much more personal and much more specific to a person.

Right. This is somebody you have what they consider strong ties to, like a close friend or a family member or something like that. So you're doing something kind to them maybe when they need help. So you're responding to them empathetically. Which is great. It's really well said.

Yeah. And then the last one is principal proaction. And this is altruism, but a little less emotional like, Go look at my record books. I give a lot of money to charity.

Sure. So what they found, though, of the 40 questions on the inventory, they all basically clustered into those three umbrellas. But they found three different things that were common to all three of the little Islands of Kindness. And those were- Great band name. Yeah, Islands of Kindness is a great band name. You're right.

Right, synthpop.

Sure. I feel sorry for other people when they experience problems. I like to make other people feel happy, and people think I have a soft heart. Correct. And what they came to identify those three things together that showed up under principal, proaction, empathetic, responsivity, and benign tolerance. They said that that's your core kindness. That's the basic thing that makes people genuinely kind. Those are the things that if you put those three things together, you have a kind person. You can have other people doing kind things, but they're not necessarily kind. They even had a measurement of unkindness. Nine of the questions were basically like, Are you a jerk? Answer yes or no. They're like, Come on, answer. That was question two. Be honest was question three, and so on, and so forth. And they found that people who rated as unkind, say, in one thing, I think maybe benign tolerance, they still rated highly empathetic, responsivity, or principal proaction. So it's not like even if you're unkind on paper that you don't do kind things. What they were saying is genuinely kind people, check those three boxes.

Yeah, I think on the questionnaire, it should say, Are you a jerk? And the only option is no. And then the next question is, do other people think you're a jerk and the only option is yes.

Between those two is the truth. They also found that women scored higher than men, generally speaking, and very specifically on benign tolerance and principled pro-action. This was very interesting. There was no overall difference based on the age of the participant, but if you were over 40, then you would score higher on principled pro-action, which makes sense if that's giving to charity because I don't think I had enough money to even give to charity.

When I.

Was younger.

I think, too, that's also a measure of adding distance to your kindness.

Yeah, sure. It's not just donating.

You don't show up at the house that the charity is supporting. You're just giving to that charity.

Yeah, I can see that. And also, I said that I didn't have enough money to give the charity. That's not true. I'm not going to say always. There are people that are genuinely living week to week and day to day with their finances. So I'm not talking about that. But in my 20s, I could have not done the one thing to give $10 to another thing. You know what I'm saying?

It's shameful.

I know it was. But you can give time if you don't have money, which is another way to be charitable.

One thing about that, though, real quick before you move on, I remember plenty of studies have turned up that people of middle to lower socioeconomic status tend to give more to charity than people higher up in the socioeconomic status.

Yeah, is that more total monies or more based on their relative income?

I think, yeah, I think relatively speaking, because a billionaire could give a million dollars and be like, Eat my dust, lower socioeconomic people. But relative to their wealth, it's not really that big of a deal. Whereas somebody lower on the scale or with less money, they gave $1,000. That might mean a lot more than a million dollars worth to a billionaire.

Yeah, and boy, what a lesson to let's say you're a single parent with a few kids and you're really struggling. What a lesson to your kids to be like, You know what? I found a $20 bill today, and we're going to put $2 in this guy's can that seems like he needs it more than we do even.

But we're going to get it in change. So it sounds like a lot because he's not paying attention, but he'll hear it.

Go get 200 penny, son. Shall we take a break?

Oh, yeah.

All right, let's take a break. We'll be right back.

A brand new historical true crime podcast.

The year is 1800, City Hall, New York.

The first murder trial in the American judicial system.

A manstance trial for the charge.

Of murder. Even with defense lawyers, Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr on the case, this is probably the most famous trial you've never heard of. When you lay suffering a sudden, violent, brutal death, I hope you'll think of me. Starring Allison Williams. I don't need anything simplified, Mr. Hamilton. Thank you. With Tony Golden as Alexander Hamilton.

Don't be so sad, Katherine. It doesn't.

Suit you. Written and created by me, Allison Block. What are.

You doing? Let go of me.

Listen to Erased, the murder of Elma Sands. She was a.

Sweet, happy, virtuous girl until she met.

That man right there. On the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever listen to your podcasts.

Our first call is Mary in Lexington, Kentucky. Mary, welcome to The Middle.

Hello, and.

Thanks for having me. If you really want to know what's going on in this country heading into the 2024 election, you have to get away from the extremes and listen to The Middle.

Hi, my.

Name is Wankett.

I'm calling you from.

Atlanta.

Georgia. On the new podcast, The Middle with Jeremy Hobson, I'm live every week taking your calls and focusing on Americans in the middle who are so important politically but are often ignored by the media.

I've been a lifetime Democratic voter.

However, I was raised by moderate Republicans from Michigan.

Creating space for a civil conversation about the most contentious issues we face, from climate change to artificial intelligence, from abortion rights to gun rights.

I consider myself to be conservative physically, but.

Politically independent. Listen to the middle of Jeremy Hobson on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

It's Jojo Ceewa, host of the new podcast, Jojo Ceewa Now. I got to admit, I am so excited to finally be starting my podcast, Jojo Ceewa Now. I feel like I've grown up in front of the world. The first time the world saw me publicly was at nine years old. Now it's time to get real up close and personal. You're going to see why I am the way I am now. You're going to see who I am now, and it's going to be pretty fun. It's going to be like an inside look at what I've been up to in the last three years. It's basically like I'm going to be talking to you like I'm writing in a journal. You're going to get all of the tea and all of the scoop. I'm also going to be talking to my friends, to people I admire, to people that are trending right now. You're going to get like, Jojo Ceewa now and now what's going on in the world. It's going to be great and I really hope you like it. You can listen to Jojo Ceewa now on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

All right, we've talked about the runner's high before, that euphoric sense that a runner can feel at a certain mile on the road or in the woods or wherever you're running. Can you get a runner's high on a treadmill?

Oh, yeah. Anytime you're exerting your body running for a while.

Okay, I didn't know if that had something to do with the environment and fresh air and.

Stuff like that. It might trigger it a little faster, who knows? But yes, you can't treadmill.

All that to say there's a helper's high that they found. This is in the 1980s that they first recluded into this. And that is just what you might think is after doing a kindness to someone, you might feel a sense of exhilaration. You might feel a very nice period of calm afterward. They have found, depending on the kindness, I guess, in the person, that can really get you going for a few weeks sometimes. And this is really interesting, I thought, psychologically, are these next couple of things is that you can get that same high just by thinking back on that kindness you did like a month ago. Yeah. That's pretty interesting.

Heck, yeah, that's interesting. But if you stop and think about it, anecdotally speaking, of course, that works like that. But when you see it on paper, it's astounding that you can think about something like you said you did a month ago and feel good about it all over again. That's pretty cool.

Yeah. We do know that there are literal physical symptoms of kindnesses in the effect, like better immune function, your stress hormones are going to go down and stuff like that. But it makes you wonder if you can call up that kindness you did a month ago, when you're starting to feel like you're getting a cold, would that literally help you avoid a cold?

Oh, yeah. Absolutely, without a question.

Okay.

It's a good reason to be kind.

Yeah, and to have a good memory.

Yeah, there's another. So another way you could put kindness, it's probably not exactly interchangeable, but it's close enough as pro-social behavior. Because I don't think we said something that's really important. Kindness is action. It's always an action. It's not just thinking something. Thinking something is not kindness. You can have kind thoughts, but kindness is always an action. And in fact, kindness. Org, which is a nonprofit that's basically like that supports kindness research, they say that kindness is a meta value, which is just right out of the gate, knocks your socks off, and that it encompasses acts of altruism, empathy, justice, respect, and more. And that is always an action often done with the intention to benefit and sometimes, but not always driven by emotion. Which, I mean, if you're going to define kindness, there it is right there. And another way to explain that is saying pro-social behavior. You are acting in a way that is kind, right? People have studied pro-social behavior more than they've studied kindness. So you can take some of those pro-social behavior studies and apply them to kindness research, too. And that's exactly what a 2020 meta-analysis did from Hong Kong Polytechnic U.

That's right. Great school. It's got to be right.

Yeah, I was reading about it. I think it's actually one of the best schools in the world.

Yeah.

See there. And they do not have a mascot. As far as I could tell, it's either an owl or Winnie the Pooh. I couldn't make heads or tails of some of the photos.

Let's go with Winnie the Pooh. Go, Pooh. All right. They did a meta-analysis like you're saying in 2020 and found that pro-social behavior that you so aptly defined was very closely linked with something called, I'm going to call it eudemonic wellbeing.

I think so.

Either that or eudemonic. Maybe that's a silent eye. Who knows? But that is a happiness that is... It's happiness-plus. It's associated with more meaning or more purpose than an ordinary happiness like, Oh boy, this ice cream tastes good.

Yeah, and I've seen, so you have wellbeing. I've seen eudemonic wellbeing or happiness as well-doing, like you're doing stuff that makes you happy rather than just feeling happy. That in and of itself is a component of wellbeing. That's pretty cool. There's also that same, I think, meta-analysis turned up that if you help somebody informally, you typically receive more personal benefits, like more happiness or a sense of reward than you do if you're formally being kind, like organizing a charity or even writing a check to charity.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

Because it's like a surprise for you as well if there's an opportunity to perform a kindness. By the way, I don't only say a kindness because of the gentleman from Winnebago Man, the great, great documentary.

Yeah, I remember that, but I don't remember him saying a kindness.

Yeah, he said it all the time, do me a kindness and get me a coffee. But it fits, though, because a kindness is an act. So it turns it into an action almost by making it a noun or-.

Yeah.

An.

Ad verb.

Is that an ad verb?

I don't know. No, it's not an ad verb. I'm about as good at English as I am at math.

No, that's not true. Oh, thanks. You're much good at English.

I don't even know where I was going with this because all I can think about is Winnebago, man.

You were talking about-.

The surprise of a kindness that presents itself, that you can, all of a sudden, you're at the grocery store and there's an opportunity to perform a kindness, I get that that might mean more to you on a happiness level than organizing a charity, because organizing a volunteer day or something is a lot of work. It can be a pain and there can be frustrations. And even though the end result is you've done something well, at the end of that day, you probably sit in your chair and you're like, Oh, man, that was a lot. But when you just do a small kindness, it's a surprise for you. And so, of course, you're going to be like, That was the best thing ever. I was just the best dude, and it only took me 30 seconds.

Yeah, and what's neat is there's other research that we'll talk about down the line that basically finds that surprise is an element of the happiness that can come out of acts of kindness. Yeah. So, yeah, I think there's definitely something to that, Chuck.

Yeah, and the best way to scare people.

So there's another study. I've got another study up my sleeve. You want to hear about it? Let's hear it. They were trying to say, Okay, great job coming up with a kindness skill, but what are we really measuring here? Are we measuring actual acts of kindness, making people happy? Or is there some other thing that we don't realize we're measuring? They actually very cleverly broke it out into a few components. They had people either do something kind for others, an act of kindness, something kind for themselves, still an act of kindness, but not for anybody else.

Totally.

Extraverted behavior that's not kindness. Maybe striking up a neutral conversation about the weather with a stranger.

It is hot.

Right. Or doing something that's open-minded, but it's not social and it's not kind. And the example that Olivia gave was engaging with art, like going to a museum, right? Okay. All of those things can make you happy. And the University of California psychologists wanted to see if we were accidentally measuring that. And what they found is that the people who did acts of kindness for other people were far and away happier than the other three groups.

Yeah, pretty interesting. And in that little bit you mentioned one of the things they covered for was doing a kindness for yourself. There was a 2019 paper from Oxford University where they found that acts of kindness to other people and acts of kindness to yourself had about the same positive effect on your happiness. And I didn't read that as like, Oh, well, that just shoots holes in the previous theory, during. I saw it as like, Well, yeah, your brain is still receiving those triggers that you're doing a kindness and you're a person too, and you need kindnesses to be done for you. And if you're the one doing it, then great. Exactly. You should be kind to yourself.

Be kind to yourself.

That's right. And rewind.

So I saw something explained, like the feeling that you get from the helper's high explained by pointing out that acts of kindness are actually an exertion for us, just like exercises is an exertion. Anything beyond what we need to do to survive that day is technically an exertion. Our bodies created this reward system to overcome the sense of exertion or pain or sore muscles or loss of giving up your goldfish treat to a puppet and flooding us with chemicals that make us feel better. So that totally explains the biochemical basis for that helper's high, for the sense of being rewarded by doing an act of kindness or just a kindness, and that it's apparently centrally located in the vagus nerve, which if you'll remember from our orgasm episode is really responsible for that. It's a huge part of the parasympathetic, autonomic nervous system, which is the opposite of flight. It's like chill and chill instead of fight or flight.

Yeah, like getting your breathing under control and your tummy feeling good and your heart rate a little lower, stuff like that. We talked about it quite a few times, I feel like, over the years. It's only in mammals. It's very unique to mammals. And because it is a part of that autonomic nervous system, it's connected to basically all the organs. Right. It's affecting everything inside your body, which is great. And it's what's going to give you that warm feeling when it's active, when you've done a kindness to someone. That's where that warm feeling is coming from, basically.

Yeah, and specifically, it's oxytocin. They've linked that to kindness in that helper's high. And that is, it's frequently called the love hormone. It is around from every event, like a mother holding a newborn baby skin to skin for the first time. That's a huge oxytocin release to doing an act of kindness for somebody. It's that warm feeling in your chest, that feeling where you just suddenly are like, If I really thought about it, I could cry right now. You just feel so good and just overwhelmed with positive feelings. That's oxytocin. And acts of kindness have been shown to release oxytocin. That seems to be part of the basis of that helper's high. So however you can get oxytocin, get it. That's my motto.

Yeah, totally. Interesting thing, too, jumping back a sec to that 2019 Oxford paper that talked about doing a kindness on oneself. I found this particularly interesting. Just witnessing an act of kindness can also have a similar effect on you, which is amazing. And that makes me wonder if our old friends, mirror neurons, are not involved somehow.

Well, yeah, I would think so because empathy has to be involved. You have to feel something toward somebody who you're helping or else you just wouldn't even think to help them. You'd probably just be like, Ha-ha. So yeah, if empathy is involved, then mirror neurons have to be involved. It's just the way it goes, friend.

But who hasn't watched one of those internet videos on Instagram or wherever where you see a real kindness and they got that piano music playing and all of a sudden you're tearing up, like your body is firing all those same neurons, apparently, according to Oxford, as if you had done that kindness yourself.

Right.

Those feel good neurons.

You got that rascal for that veteran. You did that for all intents and purposes. None of us have to do anything as long as there's some people out there doing kindnesses and posting those videos on the internet, the rest of us can just get the benefits from it without having to lift a finger.

Yeah. You go into your therapist and they're like, I know you have a problem with empathy and kindnesses. Did you do any this week? You're like, Yeah, I watched three videos.

Exactly.

It made me feel great.

Yeah. Should we take another break and then come back and talk about how it helps people who kindness is given to?

Sure.

Okay, we're going to do that.

A brand new historical true crime podcast.

The year is 1800, City Hall, New York.

The first murder trial in the American judicial system.

A manstance trial for the charge.

Of murder. Even with defense lawyers, Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr on the case, this is probably the most famous trial you've never heard of. When you lay suffering a sudden, violent, brutal death, I hope you'll think of me. Starring Allison Williams. I don't need anything simplified, Mr. Hamilton, thank you. With Tony Golden as Alexander Hamilton.

Don't be so sad, Katherine. It doesn't.

Suit you. Written and created by me, Allison Block. What are you doing? Let go of me. Listen to Erased, the murder of Elna Sands. She was a.

Sweet, happy, virtuous.

Girl.

Until she met that man.

Right there. On the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Our first call is Mary in Lexington, Kentucky. Mary, welcome to The Middle.

Hello, and.

Thanks for having me. If you really want to know what's going on in this country heading into the 2024 election, you have to get away from the extremes and listen to The Middle.

Hi, my name is Venkid. I'm calling you.

From Atlanta, Georgia.

On the new podcast, The Middle with Jeremy Hobson, I'm live every week, taking your calls and focusing on Americans in the middle who are so important politically but are often ignored by the media.

I've been a lifetime.

Democratic voter. However, I was raised by moderate Republicans from Michigan.

Creating space for a civil conversation about the most contentious issues we face, from climate change to artificial intelligence, from abortion rights to gun rights.

Itry to consider myself to be conservative physically, but.

Politically independent. Listen to the middle of Jeremy Hobson on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

It's Jojo Ceewa, host of the new podcast, Jojo Ceewa Now. I got to admit, I am so excited to finally be starting my podcast, Jojo Ceewa Now. I feel like I've grown up in front of the world. The first time the world saw me publicly was at nine years old. Now it's time to get real up close and personal. You're going to see why I am the way I am now. You're going to see who I am now, and it's going to be pretty fun. It's going to be like an inside look at what I've been up to in the last three years. It's basically like I'm going to be talking to you like I'm writing in a journal. You're going to get all of the tea and all of the scoop. I'm also going to be talking to my friends, to people I admire, to people that are trending right now. You're going to get like, Jojo Ceewa now and now what's going on in the world. It's going to be great and I really hope you like it. You can listen to Jojo Ceewa now on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

I think it's beyond ridiculous to say that a person who is the beneficiary of an act of kindness gets something out of it, too. They literally get something out of it in a lot of times. Like if it's a veteran and the rascal that a bunch of people donated to buy him, it can be a goldfish treat. They benefit in that sense, but they also benefit emotionally as well. And what they found in a bunch of different studies is what we were talking about before, that other elements like surprise, just the gesture, the thought, like they say, it's the thought that counts. Well, some studies have basically turned that up that if you don't just think about it, but you actually follow through, the people are more moved by the thought, by the gesture than they are by the goldfish treat or the rascal. Although, I mean, if you give somebody a rascal, they're probably going to be pretty happy.

What's a rascal?

Oh, it's a little mobilized get-around cart that you see people riding, usually of an advanced stage or immobility.

I got you. All right. I didn't know those were called rascals.

That is the original trait name for one of the brands, and it's become a proprietary epitome, at least in my house. Yeah.

So one of the experiments they did to test this was in 1995. They looked at unhoused folks who went to the ER a lot for treatment, and they had a control group who just got their regular old ER visit. And then they had another group that had that visit plus student volunteers who would chat them up, talk about stuff and life and listen to them and held conversations and maybe gave them a goldfish or something. And they found that the members of the test group were twice as likely to rate their care higher.

Which.

Makes perfect sense. And this is interesting. The number of ER visits among that group dropped by a third, which I guess indicates that they're healthier, I guess.

The researchers took it to mean that the unhoused people who show up to the ER over and over and over again are basically showing up until they feel like they're being treated like a human being. And that that group were satisfied that they had received good care for once and they stopped coming back to try to get it out of the people in the ER.

Oh, and that is really interesting because another way to think of that is like, why didn't the people who got that warm care want to come back and say, boy, that was pretty great. Get that goldfish, have a nice conversation with a student.

I totally thought the same.

Thing, too. Yeah, it's interesting.

So there's another study that involved cookies, and who doesn't want to talk about that? It's a good one. It's a great one. So the researchers gave strangers or study participants, a Cupcake and said, Here you go. Here's a Cupcake. You can do whatever you want with it. But you can also give it to a stranger if you like. And apparently, 80 % of the participants gave their Cupcake away. I want to know, those 20 %, I hope they didn't tell them what they were actually studying because I think you'd really have some real soul searching to do after you find out that you're part of the 20 % who kept the cocktail for yourself in a kindness study.

Yeah, they tell them that your mouth is full of cocktail, and they reveal that to you and you're like, Is it what?

You're just going to spit it back into the little wrapper and put it back and then go give it to a stranger?

Yeah, and that's when they reveal the milk that you don't get.

So the 80 % of people who gave their Cupcake away, they ask them, How much of an impact do you think this gesture is going to have? Right. And this is a really important thing that they turned up, that the people who received the Cupcake rated their happiness as higher than the person who gave them the Cupcake expected it to be a lot higher. And that's a human flaw. We have genetic programming to be kind. We also have genetic programming to second-guess ourselves and be self-conscious. And that prevents us from doing acts of kindness in a lot of ways. And even when we do acts of kindness, we underestimate their effect. But the other part of that Cupcake study that I found interesting is that the people who got the Cupcake basically said it was the surprise that made it such a great, happy experience for them.

Yeah, the people who got the Cupcake, the 20 % who ate it.

They.

Rated their happiness. And I'm sure they're fairly happy, but not nearly as happy as the people that were surprised by a stranger giving them the Cupcake.

Yeah. So I feel like we've fairly well established that being kind is a good thing and that it actually exists. Listen to your man. Yeah, almost. What about your family, though? Because think about this. Giving a Cupcake to a stranger who you're never going to see again, there's nothing but pretty much an upside to that. It's all upside. Totally. But if you gave your Cupcake away to a family member, you're going to see that family member later that day after they've had a rough day at the office, and they're probably not feeling much gratitude towards you for the Cupcake you gave them earlier in the day, even though you're still feeling good about your sofa having given them your Cupcake. And therein lies the big rub with acts of kindness in what are known as strong tie relationships like your family.

Yeah, and it seems in the case of family, and I would imagine this might go for very close friend groups as well, but I'm just speculating. But in this study in 2017, they showed a very strong correlation in the happiness level, not being dictated by, but being influenced by whether or not these acts of kindness were noticed and acknowledged.

They got people that newlyweds, people that just gotten married, and they said, spend a couple of weeks recording instances. Oh, man. Times in which one spouse would help out their partner, put aside their own, like if you're in the middle of doing something, you would stop with a small act of kindness that your partner needs in that moment. And then also while you're doing this, record your emotional state. And they found that acts of kindness that had the most impacts on both the giver and the receiver was when they were noticed and acknowledged and also found, unsurprisingly, that when the... Or maybe surprisingly.

Yeah, for sure.

When the receiver did not consciously notice it, it still resulted in improved moods for both, especially the giver.

Sure. But they were like, These people are in the honeymoon phase of their relationship. Exactly. If we did the same experiment 10 years down the road, would that second part still hold up? And there's a group, there's a pair of researchers. There are a couple, John and Julie Gotman. And they are incredibly famous, incredibly well-researched and well-read and well-sighted, like couples researchers. They're the real deal legit.

Yeah, like marriage therapists.

Yes, exactly. They actually are the ones who teach the marriage therapists, who go teach other marriage therapists. They're doing really great first-hand research. One of the things they found over the course of their career is that acts of kindness, even incredibly small acts of kindness that can take the form of a huh, when your spouse is telling you about something you couldn't care less about and you're actually really busy. Just that counts as an act of kindness and that the couples who give one another more acts of kindness than not, I think they came up with some ratio of four positive interactions to one negative interaction is the key to success, that those couples who did more kind things to one another had much more successful and lasting marriages. And that, again, those acts can be very, very small and they'll still have a big impact.

Yeah, because what they're talking about, and this is something I've seen in my own marriage, Emily and I have been together for over 20 years now, all in. And once you get into the multiple-decade span, you find, and you would be wise to learn how to do this more, but you find that attention is one of the biggest parts of being happily married. And that jives with what you were talking about there with the study or the Gotman stuff with like, I think when you've been with someone for a long time, you find yourself in your routines and like, Oh, I'm reading this thing, but Emily will come home with a story about something that just happened. And the spouse is wise who will stop what they're doing just for a moment and pay attention to them in a real way and do more than a huh, like, Oh, wow, that's really cool that that happened to you today. And chances are you can probably get back to what you're doing. The unwise person does not or they put out that they have to stop what they're doing or that their attention is diverted. And that, my friend, is not a recipe for success.

And I'm having to continually train myself still because I think certain people have deficits when it comes to stuff like that. And also just there's so much stuff now. It was a lot easier before there were smartphones and the internet and constant other things that are distracting you. But you are wise to try and be aware of those distractions to pay attention to your family and.

Your spouse. So the way that the Gotmans put it is that when your spouse or your friend or whoever is meaningful to you brings up something and saying something that is asking for your attention, they're making a bid for attention, and you have a choice. Like you said, you can pay attention to them. It's what they call turning toward. You can snap at them for always bothering you when you're trying to read, or you can ignore them, which is not as bad as snapping at them all the time. But when those ignoring instances add up, it can have a really harmful impact on the relationship. I guess the upshot of this is that the Gotman's proved that a successful relationship is exhausting. Right.

And you never get to read the stuff you want to read on your phone. Am I right, guys?

Yours is bothering me.

I guess we should talk a little bit here toward the end about gratitude and guilt, because acts of kindness many times will spring from guilt. And here's the thing with guilt, being consumed by guilt is no good for anybody, but a little bit of guilt every now and then can lead to more generosity.

That's the Catholics.

I feel like it's almost more of a... It's not like, Oh, I feel so guilty, so I have to do this. It's just like, Boy, I feel a little guilty. I'm just a little more aware and on point and trying to do the right thing.

Yeah, especially if you know you've hurt someone's feelings and that's what you're feeling guilty about, that's going to turn your kindness into hyperdrive. But researchers have found that your kindness is being laser-focused on that person. You're marshalling all of your kindness resources, and you're focusing on that poor person who probably doesn't even want to talk to you right now. But you're like, I got to be kind to you because I feel so guilty. And what they found is that level of kindness excludes other people. You're walking past other chances to be kind to other people who need acts of kindness because you're so focused on this person. So that guilty sense that can bring you to acts of kindness can very easily become overrawn and overblown and nobody wins.

Right. And they've also found that ignoring, like that could cause you to ignore, did you already say that?

Ignore other people? Pretty much, yeah. You're not paying attention to other people's needs. You're just focusing on the person who's mad at you because you feel guilty.

The gratitude piece, I don't fully understand in this context because they have found in experiments that gratitude does seem to encourage generosity even when it costs you something.

Yeah, normally people are in a good mood, or if you're in a good mood, you will probably do acts of kindness, holding a door for somebody. It doesn't cost you a thing. It's an act of kindness. People consider that a kind gesture. But if you feel gratitude because somebody else did something nice to you, or you're just happy to be alive, you feel that sense of gratitude, you're actually more likely to give somebody your only cocktail, like.

Something that's. Oh, okay. All right. Yeah, that.

Makes sense. Okay. And then the other thing about it, though, is that it doesn't even have to be gratitude toward the person who gave you that Cupcake, or you don't have to do something back to them. You can actually take that gratitude and give it to a third party, which is pretty cool, like that whole pay it forward thing. But another study found, I think back in 2006, they found that paying it forward thing is unconscious. Then when they pointed it out, Hey, you did a really nice thing for this other person, the third party, because the first party did something nice to you, the second party, if that makes sense in a super legal jargon way.

And.

When they told them that, that sense of gratitude just vanished. When it became conscious, it went away. But unconsciously, they were more prone to help other people or commit acts of kindness for other people because they were feeling gratitude to that somebody else did something nice for them.

Have you ever seen... We talked a little bit about I think you should leave, the sketch show from Tim Robinson. Did you ever watch.

Any of it? Yeah, I've watched it all.

Oh, okay. It always makes me think the pay it forward thing. Maybe, I don't know, they're all great. But one of his best, my favorite sketches ever is the drive-through when that whole notion of paying for someone's drive-through behind you. And then he speeds around and then, 55 burgers, 55 milkshakes.

100 pizzas, 55 coffees. So funny.

Yeah, that is so good. Oh, boy, I love that guy.

What else, Chuck?

Well, we can wrap it up with a little bit on compassion, fatigue. Doing kindnesses is great, but they have found that if you are someone who works in an industry where you have to have a lot of compassion, if you're a hospice nurse, if you are a single parent and you have a child with high needs, if you work at a shelter for unhoused people, and you're just constantly having to give of yourself every day, you can exhaust yourself of that. And it can be very difficult to work those hours of being nothing but empathetic all day long and doing kindnesses all day long. And that's compassion fatigue. You can have mood swings, you can be irritable, you can be anxious and depressed, and bad things can happen. So that's why you need to take care of yourself. Self-care is so important when you have a situation.

Like that. Yeah, you can also lose your general basic drive for compassion. You could start being like, I don't care about any of these people that I'm treating in the ER anymore because I'm so burned out.

Yeah, that's tough stuff.

Yes. Fortunately, that's pretty limited to certain occupations or situations like people taking care of a loved one at home 24/7 basically. And yeah, there's a lot of resources. If you are thinking that you might have compassion, fatigue, you should just start reading about it on the web. And there's a lot of really good solutions to that that can help.

Yeah. Take it easy on yourself because it's painful to admit sometimes that stuff is very hard and that you feel resentment. And it's human. Let yourself up.

Sure.

Nice. That's what I say.

And there's one last thing about kindness that I thought was really great. It can be hard to be mindful. It can be hard to cultivate gratitude. Those aren't just things that just snap into mind when you want them to, right? The great thing about kindness is it's an action, so you can just do it. You don't have to... It's not something you have to cultivate or work on or a mindset you have to be in. You can just do it. Again, as we've shown, as study after study after study after study has shown, it's beneficial to you and the receiver, and it keeps society going, so said Darwin. So do it.

Yeah, do a little experiment. If you find you're having a very blue period, try holding to open that door, do a kindness or two and see what that does for you and just chart it and see what happens.

Very nice. Well, since Chuck said charted everybody, that means it's time for listener mail.

I'm going to call this Sportzy. I thought this was interesting. This was in regards to our bad business moves or bad business decisions.

Sure.

This was a good one. As an NBA fan, I can't believe I didn't know this, and you're an NBA fan, too. Yes. You'll appreciate this. Hey, guys. I was late to the show, discovered you during the pandemic, and was happy to have your voices in my ears through those long days. On the worst-ish business deals, I thought I'd share one of my favorites. When the ABA merged with the NBA back in the '70s, some teams became NBA franchises like the and Indiana and San Antonio and Denver, the Nuggets. The rest were bought out by the NBA like, Hey, I'm sorry, Kentucky Colonel's. We'll give you $3 million to stop being an ABA team.

You know you're bad if somebody pays you $3 million to stop playing.

The owners of the St. Louis… Well, they decided to make them go away. The owners of the St. Louis Spirit, the Silna Brothers, negotiated a smaller deal, 2.2 million, which included a share of television rights and perpetuity. Up through 2013, this earned the Silna's about $300 million for not operating an NBA team from the '70s. In 2014, the NBA finally bought themselves out of that clause by an agreement of a lump sum $500 million payment. What? So the Syltness total pocket was $800 million from the NBA to not have an NBA team. It may not be the worst business deal of all time. It may have been the worst in pro sports. Worst, I guess, for the NBA.

Sure.

That's amazing. I had never heard that. So that is from Steve Sawnan in Seattle. Sorry about the Super Sonics. Washington.

Thanks, Steve. That was a great one. I had not heard anything about that, and it's crazy to hear. Is it crazy? It's amazing. Some people in Kentucky making $800 million. Northern Kentucky probably, too. If you want to get in touch with us like Steve did, you can send us an email. Send it off to stuffpodcast@iheartradio. Com.

Stuff you should know is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, My Heart Radio.

Visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple.

Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. A brand new historical true crime podcast. When you lay suffering a sudden, brutal death. Starring Allison Williams. I hope you'll think of me. Erased the murder of Elma Sands.

She was a.

Sweet.

Happy, virtuous girl.

Let go of me.

Until she met.

That man right there. Written and created by me, Allison Flood. Is it possible, sir?

We're.

Standing by for your answer. Erased the murder of Elna Sands on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

If you really want to know what's going on in this country heading into the 2024 election, you have to get away from the extremes and listen to The Middle.

Hi, Jan, here in Kansas.

City, Missouri. On the podcast The Middle with Jeremy Hobson, I'll take calls live every week elevating the voices of Americans who are so important when it comes to who's in power and what gets done.

My.

Name is VanKed. I'm calling you.

From Atlanta, Georgia. Listen to the middle of Jeremy Hobson on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Mo'Raka, and I'm excited to announce.

Season.

4 of.

My podcast, Mo'Bituaries. I've got a whole new bunch of stories to share with you.

About the most fascinating people and things who.

Are no longer.

With us. From famous.

Figures who died on the.

Very same day to the things I wish.

Would die, like buffet.

Listen to MoBituaries with.

Moraka on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.