In the new Amy and TJ podcast, news anchors Amy Roebach and TJ Holmes explore everything from current events to pop culture in a way that's informative, entertaining, and authentically groundbreaking. Join them as they share their voices for the first time since making their own headlines.

This is the first time that we actually get to say what happened and where we are today.

Listen to the Amy and a podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or.

Wherever you get your podcasts.

Walter Isaacson set out to write about a world changing genius in Elon Musk and found a man addicted to chaos and conspiracy.

I'm thinking it's idiotic to buy Twitter because he doesn't have a fingertip feel for social emotional networks.

The book launched a thousand hot takes, so I sat down with Isaacson to try to get past the noise.

I like the fact that people who say I'm not as tough on Musk as I should be are always using anecdotes from my book to show why we should be tough on Musk.

Join me, Evan Ratliff for on Musk with Walter Isaacson. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, everybody, we want to let you know that we are doing our traditional Pacific Northwest swing for our live show next year. In fact, the end of January next year, very early next year.

And we're starting out in Seattle, Washington, on January 24 at the Paramount Theater. It's huge.

That's right.

And then on to Portland on January 25 at Revolution hall, the place we always are. It's kind of our home away from home in Portland. And then we're going to wrap it all up at the thing that started the Pacific Northwest tour in the first place all those years back. SF Sketchfest will be at the Sydney Goldstein Theater on Friday, January 26. Right, Chuck?

That's right.

And remember, you can go to stuffyushudnow.com, click on tours in order to get to the correct ticket link, or go to the venue page only. Do not go to scalper sites.

That's right. And we'll see you guys in January. Okay.

Welcome to stuff you should know.

A production of iHeartradio.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. And there's Chuck. And, well, I was going to say Jerry's here, but that would be a dirty, filthy lie.

True.

She's not here.

It's you and me, Chuck.

Yeah, I was about to say just like the old days, but Cherry was around from the beginning. I wasn't around from the beginning, man.

So I guess this is a periodical situation we find ourselves in, just like the periodical situation.

Can I say a couple of quick things here?

Yes. First of all, I want to congratulate listener Corey Wegner because this topic is from Corey. Nice.

Way to go, Corey.

Yeah.

Listener suggestion, which is great. And also want to officially welcome Mr. Gibson Bryant into the family, the new puppy.

Oh, yeah.

He's cute.

He's cute. Gibson was being fostered through the lifeline organization that we work with a lot here in Atlanta. And Foster mom Rachel was just wonderful. And Gibson's little Coonhound shepherd mix. And he's awesome.

And it's great so far, so just.

He and the cats, they got to work it out.

So far, it's not great. Oh, no.

It just takes a little time. I figure a week or two usually is based on when we've dog sat other dogs, because the cats love dogs, our dogs. But, like, a new dog comes in.

And they're like, yeah, he has to.

Prove himself to them.

Yeah, they got to work it out. It'll take a little time, but he's a very sweet boy. He's fitting right in.

He looks like it. I guess you've posted pictures on your instagram page.

Yeah, Gibson's on there. Chuck the podcaster.

If you want to check out this.

Handsome little leggy boy.

Nice. Well, welcome, Gibson. Congratulations, Chuck.

Yeah.

To the stuff you should know, family.

The stuff you should know, Army.

I see where this is going.

It is. I normally would have just left it at. Yes, the stuff you should know, family. But the reason the stuff you should know, army ties into this, because we're talking about armies, but fake armies. Believe it or not, the stuff you should know, army, is a fake army.

Oh, really?

There's not a lot of international conflict or killing or shooting of machine guns with the stuff you should know, army. So, yes, I would say it's a fake army.

Well, what's the very definition of army?

I don't even know a group that engages in international conflicts and kills and.

Shoots machine guns, actually. Well, no, it can be a large number of people organized for a purpose.

Like an army of photographers, I guess so.

I think those are called gaggles, though.

Okay.

Geese and the photographers.

Okay.

No offense. Men, of course, who are great people at the stuff you should know, army.

Because, of course, the greatest. Yeah.

So there are other armies whose patterns of killing are questionable at best. And that includes both the Salvation army, but less so, the skeleton army, because if any of the groups I've just mentioned just now bore the closest resemblance to an army. It would be the Skeleton army, probably.

And this is one I had not even heard of until Corey Wegner sent this. Yeah, I just thought we should dive.

In a little bit on the Salvation army first, probably, right?

Yeah, I'm sure people are like, guys, what are you talking about with the Salvation army? Just wait. Hold your horses, please.

Yeah.

You've probably heard of the Salvation army.

They're an international organization at this point, right? Yes.

They have been doing it since the 1870s, I believe, late 1870s. And their mission is to basically combat poverty where it's at. Like, they go to where poverty is at. And apparently, in the United States alone, they serve 23 million people a year. So they're doing some significant work. And I don't want to walk past the fact that they're also a pretty controversial organization, especially today. They're a christian organization, a protestant christian organization at its core from their founding. So they have sometimes unfriendly views or have held unfriendly views toward LGBTQ plus community, and now they've kind of revised it to say, like, yeah, we don't mind. Just don't tell us that you're gay. You can come work with us anytime you want. And that's not quite enough. But at the same time, there's people who are on the conservative Christian right who are like, that's too far. So the Salvation army finds itself in a very ticklish position. Right. I just. That doesn't have anything to do with this particular episode, but I think it'd be kind of disingenuous to just not mention that at all.

Yeah.

They were founded by a gentleman named George Booth. He was born in England in Nottingham in 1829, and was a Methodist preacher at first. And the picture I get of George Booth from kind of reading up on him is that he kind of, from the start, was a bit of a rabble rouser within the church. As far as know, he was into street preaching. He was frustrated with the sort of formalities of the church, the hierarchies of the church. Probably felt like the church isn't helping the people that are most in need. Was maybe a little too disconnected from poverty and the real people out on the streets. It seems like he was charged from the beginning, like, within himself, to do something bigger than just be a standard Methodist preacher.

Yeah, exactly. I get the impression you kind of touched on it, that he probably viewed the church as an institution, as really detached from the people who needed its help most. So he started an organization. He decided to kind of go help people where they're at. So he started street preaching, apparently based on american revivalists of the early 19th century. And he would just stand on the street corner and preach, and so, too would his wife. This is a time where, if you were super religious like this, and you said, women can preach, too, and let's go help the poor directly. That was deeply progressive at the time in England. England was so ridiculously stodgy conservative that I read about a magazine that in its inaugural edition, promised that it would do nothing to help along this morbid desire for change, that they were just going to keep things exactly the way that they were. And that's what the establishment wanted. People like George Booth are like. That's not working for a whole huge segment of society.

Yeah.

His wife, Catherine Mumford, when they married, played a big part, played a big part in this whole story, actually. So you can kind of put a. No, don't put a pin in her.

She's there.

I can see the skeleton army putting a pin in her.

No pin necessary. Or maybe flinging a dead rat her way.

Yeah.

So as the story goes, at least in 1878, he was dictating a letter and he said, the christian mission is a volunteer army. Capital C, capital m. And then he said, no, strike that. And perhaps struck it himself and crossed out volunteer and wrote down salvation. A Salvation army. And that was sort know. Salvation army is so ubiquitous, especially around Christmas time in the United States, when people, I think, generally sort of associate.

Salvation army with either dropping off clothes.

And toys that you don't want at a Salvation army store or buying things from a Salvation army store, or around Christmas when they have Santa Claus's ringing that bell with that kettle outside, and they are asking people to donate their spare change or what have you.

Yes.

And if by Christmas time, you get annoyed at that ringing of the bell that you hear all the time, count your lucky stars that you weren't born in England in the 1870s, because you would have been super annoyed by the Salvation army at that time.

Yeah, absolutely.

And that was sort of my deal with the Salvation army. That's how I knew them. And I knew they did, obviously, a lot of charitable works. But I didn't really ever stop to.

Think about the whole army thing, the.

Military aspect, because when I earlier said, like, an army can be just a collection of people, that wasn't how they meant it. They meant it as know not, we're going to take up arms. But they wore uniforms. They gave themselves military ranks. Booth named himself the general, and it became like, I think their newspaper was called the war cry. Their initiation creed were called the articles of War.

So they really sort of, I don't.

Want to say leaned into. I'm really trying to stop saying that.

They were army forward.

Yeah, they were very army forward in a sort of militaristic sense, but again, not like, hey, we're going know, start a real war. But they were just like, we're warriors for Christ, basically.

Yeah.

To be initiated, you had to kill a man with your bare hands. They were pretty serious about the army thing.

Yeah.

But the reason that they were so into the army, that was part of the zeitgeist at the time. This is the victorian age. The english empire is at its peak at the time, and the english empire got that way because of the military. So the military is highly regarded. So it kind of made sense to kind of go with that. It'd be like, today, oh, boy. It'd be like fashioning yourself after the swifties, if you were founding, like, a new rescue mission organization.

I wouldn't mess with them.

No, you would not. So he established this in pretty short order. He started to use the Salvation army. It was set up to achieve his aims. And his aims we've kind of touched on a little bit, but they're pretty straightforward. The biggest one, really, is, if you want to help poor people, go to the poor people and help them directly. That's how you help poor people. That's just what you have to do. You have to get your hands dirty. As it was. That was pretty much the foundation of the Salvation army, from what I can tell. It's a big part of it still today.

Yeah, absolutely.

Which is great. Their mantra was soup, soap, salvation. In other words, help feed the poor.

Help.

I mean, soap. I don't think they literally meant to.

Help clean them, but they may have.

I think that sort of stood for lift people out of poverty and also bring them to Christ. I mean, that was a big part of it. We can't ignore that.

And as it pertains, say what?

Bring them to who?

Christ. Jesus Christ.

Oh, Jesus Christ. I got you.

Do you think I meant Jimmy Christ?

Billy.

Real last name?

I don't think so.

I think Chris would run out of.

Town on a rail, how it's pronounced.

People would say Chris these days, right?

Sure.

I mean, that's got to be a last name. Christ.

Yes.

If we have any listeners out there who. That's your last name and you go by Christ, please write in we want to hear all about your life.

Yeah.

Especially if it's Jimmy Christ. I would love to know you. And another big part, especially as it pertains to the skeleton army, who we'll learn about here in a minute, is.

That alcohol is bad.

They were way, way into the temperance movement, and alcohol was just a big, big evil. And that would factor really heavily into the goings on between the Salvation army and the Skeleton army.

Yes.

They also, like we said, women can preach. That was very radical, very progressive at the time. And they also were super into music. I didn't see why. I guess General Booth himself was particularly into music, because, again, this whole organization seems like an extension of him and his wife as well. I don't want to just call her that. Catherine.

Yeah.

Catherine's views as well. I think they kind of jibed really well together.

They're into the same bands.

Exactly. There was a quote that's often attributed to George Booth that may or may not have been said by him, but it fits.

It's.

Why should the devil have all the best tunes? And I'm pretty sure he was making a failed reference to Black Sabbath.

Right.

And eventually striper. He would have been way into striper.

I was reading about them the other day. I can't believe I didn't tell you. You. How far did you follow them? When did you leave off from striper?

When did I leave the. You know, as I sort of transitioned out of going to church. So that would have been, like, middle high school.

So they were still doing, like, the black and yellow.

Yellow and black attack.

Yes.

I think that was the name of one of their records.

Yeah.

I mean, they were still around. I think this was right before they.

Had a secular ballad hit.

Okay. Yes. You transitioned, and shortly after that, they transitioned, and they left all that God stuff behind and released a couple of albums, and they did not do very well. And I think they were pretty surprised. They thought, well, we'll just go more mainstream, and it didn't work. They were more successful, mainstream wise, as a Christian forward metal band than they were as, like, a regular metal band.

Yeah, the Sweet Brothers. Is that who they were? Yeah.

Michael and Matthew Sweet.

Like, Matthew Sweet, I want you to be my girlfriend, Matthew Sweet.

No. In fact, maybe it wasn't Matthew. Maybe I'm conflating, but I know Michael Sweet was.

I think he was the singer.

Okay, Michael Sweet. And then I think the drummer was.

Actually.

Oh, man, I remember some of those names. I don't remember. Or maybe the drummer was the other brother. I remember, he played sideways?

Oh, did he?

That's awesome.

Which is interesting.

Do you still have the action figures?

No, I don't know if I still have that record. I'll have to look through my vinyl.

Yeah, you do.

Yeah, I was into that for a little while.

Okay.

Well, at any rate, I don't remember how I was reading about Striper, but I was reading all about their career the other day. I don't know how I stumbled.

It's easy to fall into a striper rabbit hole if you're at a certain age.

I did.

Yeah.

So, yeah, they were into music. The thing is. And they wanted to use music, not striper. We're talking back about the Salvation army. Although Striper wanted to do the same thing. They wanted to use music to get God's message across.

Absolutely.

Unlike Striper, they had zero musical talent, but were very happy to be as loud as possible. So, you know, the image you have of, like, temperance people and kind of old, like, goody two shoes christians in the 19th century banging on a huge drum, singing songs about Jesus and all that.

Sure.

That is based in reality. That was a Salvation army, and everyone who wasn't in the Salvation army loathed them for that.

Yeah, it was pretty annoying if you were enjoying a pint in a pub and the Salvation army came around.

Yeah. Because in addition to going to the poor, where the poor were, they figured, if you want to save sinners, go to where the sinners are. So they would storm into pubs and start singing religious hymns at the top of their lungs, banging drums, like telling people they were going to hell. And these people are just trying to unwind after a hard day's work at the docks.

Or they had no job and they were just getting loaded.

Yeah.

Or they're celebrating a promotion at the docks. I don't know. The thing is, they did not want to hear that at the time. And even if you weren't in the pubs, just hearing them go down the street preaching all day Sunday, sometimes during the week, too, they really purposefully made a nuisance of themselves because they were really assertive and hostile almost, in shoving their message about salvation down everyone's throat, whether they wanted to hear it or not.

All right, I think that sets the stage. Time for a break.

Yes, for sure.

All right.

For sure.

We'll be right back after this.

You bet.

In the new Amy and TJ podcast, Amy Robach and TJ Holmes, a renowned broadcasting team with decades of experience delivering headline news and captivating viewers nationwide, are sharing their voices and perspectives in a way you've never heard before. They explore meaningful conversations about current events, pop culture, and everything in between. Nothing is off limits.

This was a scandal that wasn't, and this was not what you've been sold.

The Amy and TJ podcast is guaranteed to be informative, entertaining, and, above all, authentic. It marks the first time Roebach and Holmes speak publicly since their own names became a part of the headlines.

This is the first time that we actually get to say what happened and where we are today.

Listen to the Amy and TJ podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

When Walter Isaacson set out to write his biography of Elon Musk, he believed he was taking on a world changing figure.

That night, he was deciding whether or not to allow Starlink to be enabled to allow a sneak attack on Crimea.

What he got was a subject who also sowed chaos and conspiracy.

I'm thinking it's idiotic to buy Twitter because he doesn't have a fingertip feel for social emotional networks.

And when I sat down with Isaacson five weeks ago, he told me how he captured it all.

They have Kansas spray paint and they're just putting Big X's on machines, and it's almost like kids playing on the playground just chews them up left, right, and center. And then like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, he doesn't even remember it. Getting to Mars doesn't excuse being a total, but I want the reader to see it in action.

My name is Evan Ratliffe, and this is Elon Musk with Walter Isaacson. Join us in this four part series as Isaacson breaks down how he captured a vivid portrait of a polarizing genius. Listen to Elon Musk on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Tune in to the new podcast, stories from the village of nothing, much like easy listening, but for fiction. If you've overdosed on bad news, we invite you into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you. I'm Catherine Nikolai, and you might know me from the bedtime Story podcast. Nothing much happens. I'm an architect of cozy, and I invite you to come spend some time where everyone is welcome and kindness is the default. When you tune in, you'll hear stories about bakeries and walks in the woods, a favorite booth at the diner on a blustery autumn day, cats and dogs, unrescued goats and donkeys, old houses, bookshops, beaches where kites lie and pretty stones are found. I have so many stories to tell you, and they are all designed to help you feel good and feel connected to what is good in the world. Listen, relax, enjoy. Listen to stories from the village of nothing much on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, so the stage is set, the Salvation army is firmly in place, and they are going around. Aside from doing great things for the poor, they are going around and going to pubs and banging their pots and pans and their drums and they're singing all these religious songs and the people.

Do not like it. So that is the sort of the.

Position that they're in at this point. So what forms is what's called the skeleton army to literally combat the Salvation Army. Ed helped us out with this one, and I would argue that there aren't two origins, there's one origin, but the sort of second part of the origin story we'll get to.

Is that fair to say?

It's fair, but confusing, sure.

All right.

Well, the first, basically how they formed is what we've been talking about. They were literally just annoyed at the Salvation army coming around, telling them not to drink, singing songs and loudly preaching and disrupting their pub time. And so the initial sort of response was just cheering at them, hey, why don't you sit down and have a beer? That kind of thing, being very sarcastic. And then things started just to escalate sort of little by little, because these were drunks, basically, right. And when you're someone engaging a drunk and telling them not to drink, that's not going to go over too well and tempers will genuinely flare at some point.

Yeah, for sure. I think we said the Salvation army set itself up in 1878. By 1879, the first newspaper account of a clash between the Salvation army and people who hated the Salvation army made it into a newspaper. I think there was an incident in Liverpool. This is not the first incident. This is just the first incident that got written up in the paper. Right. And the reason it got written up is because there was a riot.

A riot.

People hated what the Salvation army was doing so much that they would often trigger riots whenever they started doing their marches. And they were roundly blamed for this. Like, at the time, as we'll see, it kind of came out differently in the end, but everyone blamed them for just existing and doing what they were doing. They felt that the Salvation army was responsible for the riots that the people who were against the Salvation army would carry out when the Salvation army came around.

Yeah.

Exactly. So 79, like you said, was the first noted one in Liverpool. And then if you read contemporaneous accounts, which we did of the time, they just started popping up here and there. In March of 81 in the east end of London, there were some guys leaving a pub and they beat up a bunch of Salvation Army, I guess. What would they be called?

Soldiers? Yeah, I think so. Okay.

There were some salvationist women, which they were called hallelujah lasses was a nickname that were entrapped with some rope by the crowd. They were getting hot coals thrown at them. And this sort of played out how it played out in most places. Things got pretty ugly. When I joked about throwing dead rats at them. I wasn't kidding. That was a real thing that they did, apparently. Dead rats and live cats in at least one instance.

Yeah.

There was another instance where there was a guy who was testifying during a Salvation army meeting and 40 people with chamber pots stormed the meeting and dumped urine all over the man.

Yeah, that happened.

They were in their own meeting. They weren't even out on the street or in a pub. That's how hated these people were. They would be physically assaulted. They would have just all sorts of stuff thrown at them in addition to dead rats, dead fish. And there were plenty of accounts of not just men but also women and even children being assaulted by the crowds. Like you said, the hallelujah lasses were basically roped with hot coals thrown at them. There was an account somewhere that said between twelve months, this would have been in the probably the early 1880s across England, 669 Salvationists, 251 of those were women, were, quote, knocked down, kicked or brutally assaulted. 56 buildings of the army were stormed and partially wrecked. That was another thing that people against the Salvation army like to do. They like to try to burn down their meeting halls sometimes while they were in it. And then 86 salvationists, 15 of them women, were thrown in prison. So it was a really hardcore thing to go out and do as a Salvation army soldier.

Yeah.

Oh, absolutely. And so, yeah, I hope he didn't paint it as too light of a brush. Like, oh, they would just sort know, yell at them and jeer at them and throw dead rats and things. It got physically violent. It was not a good scene. The Salvation army, for their part, when you mentioned the music, one thing that they were fond of was, and they still do that today in England, is they take popular songs and change the words at soccer games. At their football games, like these old school pub sing alongs, they would change it to their local pub or their local football team or whatever. And so the history of just changing lyrics, I mean, I say it's a little lazy, quite honestly. Maybe write a new song altogether, but that's okay.

Sure.

But they would do that. The Salvation army would do that. So they would take popular pub songs, change up the lyrics to suit them in their christian message. Ed dug up some of the titles.

That were pretty great.

Oh, every land is filled with sin is not bad. My favorite is the devil in me. We can't agree. I hate him and he hates me.

Which sounds like agreement.

That's true, now that I think about it. But this is what's going on. This only angered the people in the pubs even more because they're like, those are our songs. And there are, hey, let's get drunk songs that we sing together. Don't change them around and sing them in our face because I might assault you or dump urine on your head.

Yeah. There was another song that kind of gets across the Salvation army sentiments about the places they were visiting. It's called out of the gutters. We pick them. And I read that there was resentment among a lot of the lower working class groups who were getting visited by these people, being helped out with their poverty strickenness, who were like, this is my neighborhood that you're talking about, and singing about the gutter. So they managed to offend and annoy essentially everybody. And yet what was really interesting about this is that they started to grow. Like, each Sunday there'd be more and more of them and more and more of them. And their meeting halls would get bigger and bigger because there were more Salvation army members who had joined, who had been picked out of the gutter, or who had said, I'm giving up the devil drink, or whatever reason, had decided to join the Salvation army and were now the very people who were annoying their former selves.

Yeah, or their friends.

Man, I'll bet that was uncomfortable.

Oh, man. So they had other tactics. The salvation army had white uniforms. So they would try and mar those uniforms in a number of ways. One is there was a narrow alley leading to one of their meeting halls, and they would paint a sticky tar on the alley walls. They would throw eggs that had blue paint in them. They would then, in turn, sometimes take the original pub songs that they had changed Salvation army into christian songs, back into more body versions of their christian songs, and sing them back into them and even mess with their old sort of motto, which was soup, soap.

What was the third one?

Salvation.

Soup soap.

Salvation to beer, beef, beer, and bacca.

Which is tobacco, which is pretty hilarious.

Yeah.

So people were getting creative, but it.

Was also truly violent at times.

It was. And even if it wasn't violent, think about how annoyed you'd be if you weren't on either side. Because the people who would give the greatest resistance and hostility toward the Salvation army were the exact same people that would do this in a pub today, 20 somethings who are already feeling pretty rowdy. Probably the drunkest of the people in the pub. Imagine just being like us, Chuck. We're just trying to have a beer in a booth. And not only is the Salvation army going off, but now it's being doubly amplified because the other people, these hooligans, are essentially pushing back just as loud, if not louder. I would just be like, shut up.

Well, that's why we end up in a coffee house and then we've lost all credibility as cool guys.

We end up in a coffee house and we just bring our own flasks, right?

Oh, there you go. We just regain some credibility.

Did we ever have credibility as cool guys?

I did. How about you?

I did not.

Yeah, you did. I did not. Yeah, I'm a cool guy and I.

Know other cool guys.

You've always been a cool guy, man.

I did not.

So we should talk a little bit about Susanna Beatty. She was a captain in the Salvation army who died in either 1881 or 1882. And the Salvation army will say, and there are some contemporaneous accounts, too, that we saw in newspapers and stuff where she was essentially killed by the skeleton army. She was beaten. I saw in one of the newspapers that said she was kicked in her womb.

I was hoping you weren't going to say that. That is so tough to hear, even.

It is. Well, and I don't know if that implies that she was pregnant, because I didn't see that.

I don't know. I think that what they were saying is she probably had internal bleeding in her abdomen.

From those injuries, I couldn't quite tell.

But at the end of the day, she was killed by the skeleton army, which is horrific. And the Salivation army today names her and celebrates her as their first martyr.

Right.

Also, some skeleton army member was killed by a cop, I think was cracked in the head with a baton.

That's a skeleton army guy, right?

Yeah, skeleton army guy. But this sort of thing didn't happen much in terms of the skeleton army and the police because it seems like the police in almost every case was anti Salvation army. And it looks like, depending on where you were and what was going on and who the particular cop was may have even sort of helped things along or let the skeleton army go and maybe aided them a little bit in a lot of these riots.

Yeah, we kind of touched on it earlier that the establishment wanted things just as they were. They didn't like this progressive, hostile christian group, like organizing the working classes. Right. So since they were already in charge, they were basically, if not directly, informing the courts and the police not to intervene against the skeleton army. And certainly, if anything, if you're going to arrest anybody, arrest those rabble rousers of Salvation army. So they had no formal structural protection. Essentially. If they did anything, they usually arrested the Salvation army members. Most of the time, they didn't do anything because the power structure in each town was pretty much diametrically opposed to the Salvation army.

Yeah, absolutely.

And then in that one article that you sent from back then, it seems like a lot of these counter protests, if you want to call them that, or these rioters were either brewery owners or brewery owners and their employees. So it kind of became like a literal war against temperance and alcohol. It was so heavily intertwined because these brewers were like, we don't want these people coming in here and the writings on the wall of what's going on in America, and we're not going to have a prohibition. So the brewers and their employees are, like, fighting back against these people, preaching against alcohol.

Yeah.

And again, I don't want to underestimate the impact that the idea that they were organizing the working class had on scaring the upper class as well. Because at the time, if you were wealthy, if you had a title, you were in charge. If you were working class, you were not in charge. The best you could hope for is that the wealthy would look out for you when they were making laws, which probably didn't work out very much. So that was a big part of it, too. And then also, even Protestants didn't like them, because remember, George Booth was like, I don't like this church hierarchy stuff. I'm just going to go start preaching on the corner. That was very much carried into the Salvation army. So the protestant churches, the Methodists in particular, were like, we don't like you. The Catholics really didn't like them because there was that whole catholic protestant division that dated all the way back to the 16th century. So basically, no one liked the Salvation army, and everyone was essentially working against them.

Yeah, for sure.

Depending on. I mean, it depends on kind of where you were and who was there as to how violent this could get. If there was like, sort of a younger, more rabble rousing preacher, a lot of times, especially if it was a woman that was coming in and leading the charge, things could escalate a little more quickly.

Right.

I know there was a 23 year old woman, a captain in the Salvation army, named Ada Smith, who was really enthusiastic and really liked to get in the faces of these dudes in the pubs. And other times it was someone who maybe wasn't quite as in your face and things didn't go quite as sideways. Apparently, if it was a tourist town or a port town had a lot.

To do with it too, right?

Yeah, for sure. Because if it was a tourist town, you don't want, like, the Salvation army running around telling everybody they're going to hell. That's not good for tourism. So they're actually directly affecting people's livelihoods. That's one. If it's a port town, there's probably a lot of drinking going on. So the people in the town don't want to hear was, if it was a country town suburb of London, it was probably a little more genteel. I get the impression that the more rough and tumble the populace, the more incidents of violence the Salvation army faced. But also, I don't want to make it sound like they weren't triggering people. They definitely were. That Captain Ada Smith you mentioned, she was in Worthing, and Worthing was essentially ground zero for riots that took place in the mid 1880s. Like, straight up riots where the people were attacking the town hall because they were so upset about the Salvation army being around. They were provoking people for sure. I'm not blaming them for riots like, as we'll see in a minute that they were. But they definitely were provoking people intentionally, as.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Should we take another break? Yeah. All right, we'll take our second break.

And we'll talk about where these guys might have come from on the skeleton army side to begin with.

When Walter Isaacson set out to write his biography of Elon Musk, he believed he was taking on a world changing figure.

That night, he was deciding whether or not to allow Starlink to be enabled to allow a sneak attack on Crimea.

What he got was a subject who also sowed chaos and conspiracy.

I'm thinking it's idiotic to buy Twitter because he doesn't have a fingertip feel for social emotional networks.

And when I sat down with Isaacson five weeks ago, he told me how he captured it all.

They have Kansas spray paint and they're just putting Big X's on machines, and it's almost like kids playing on the playground just chews them up left, right, and center. And then like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, he doesn't even remember it. Getting to Mars doesn't excuse being a total, but I want the reader to see it in action.

My name is Evan Ratliff, and this is Elon Musk with Walter Isaacson. Join us in this four part series as Isaacson breaks down how he captured a vivid portrait of a polarizing genius. Listen to on Musk on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get.

Your podcasts in the new Amy and TJ podcast Amy Roebach and TJ Holmes, a renowned broadcasting team with decades of experience delivering headline news and captivating viewers nationwide, are sharing their voices and perspectives in a way you've never heard before. They explore meaningful conversations about current events, pop culture, and everything in between. Nothing is off limits.

This was a scandal that wasn't, and this was not what you've been sold.

The Amy and TJ podcast is guaranteed to be informative, entertaining, and, above all, authentic. It marks the first time Roebach and Holmes speak publicly since their own names became a part of the headlines.

This is the first time that we actually get to say what happened and where we are today.

Listen to the Amy and TJ podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Tune in to the new podcast stories from the village of nothing, much like easy listening, but for fiction. If you've overdosed on bad news, we invite you into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you. I'm Katherine Nikolai, and you might know me from the bedtime Story podcast. Nothing much happens. I'm an architect of cozy, and I invite you to come spend some time where everyone is welcome and kindness is the default. When you tune in, you'll hear stories about bakeries and walks in the woods, a favorite booth at the diner on a blustery autumn day, cats and dogs and rescued goats and donkeys, old houses, bookshops, beaches where kites fly and pretty stones are found. I have so many stories to tell you, and they are all designed to help you feel good and feel connected to what is good in the world. Listen, relax, enjoy. Listen to stories from the village of nothing much on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

So skeleton army is kind of this formalized term for the groups of people who essentially organized to try to beat the Salvation army out of town, do whatever they could to get rid of them, including lots and lots of violence and again, trying to burn down their meeting halls and stuff. And there's a historian named, I think, john Hare, who wrote an article in 1988 in Folklore that Ed found where he basically says there's a really high likelihood that the skeleton armies actually grew out of what are called the bonfire boys or bonfire clubs. Who would celebrate the 5 November? Not the 5 May, but the 5 November in the same way that people used to celebrate devil's Night in Detroit, by just burning down everything in sight, marching and just causing trouble and getting super drunk.

Yes. And we'll probably do one on this in full at some point. But remember, remember the 5 may? We're laughing because Josh said May and we cut it out.

Yeah. Or did we leave it in?

I think we cut it out.

I guess we'll see.

The 5 November goes back to, if anyone has ever seen the movie v for vendetta. So good with Natalie Portman.

Good movie. And guy Pierce. Yeah, of course.

Or no.

Yeah, it was Guy Pierce, right?

No, it was the weird clone guy from the Matrix.

Him. Oh, he was really. Yeah, he was the dude.

The Mr. Anderson.

Yes.

What's the guy's name?

Hugh Lori.

In 16 five, there were catholic conspirators who tried to blow up parliament because that would have killed the protestant king James I, and hoped that there would.

Be a catholic king to fill that.

Role, to fill that power vacuum.

It's a great point.

And England would be back to being a catholic nation after the split from in 1534 that you talked about earlier that King Henry VI brought about. So remember the 5 November? Every November 5, there was, and I believe still is, just a lot of sort of celebrations, big parties, big bonfires. They would light tar barrels on fire. It got pretty rowdy. And like you said, they were called the bonfire clubs. And there are historians, namely that one guy you talked about who basically say these guys were still around in the 1870s and 1880s. And there's a lot of evidence that kind of shows that they were probably also like, hey, we've got pitchforks, we've got torches. We have the same sort of anti establishment attitude. So we'll just sort of start doing skeleton stuff as well.

Right. There was actually an 1885 article in the Sussex coast of Mercury newspaper that basically said that they were watching the skeleton club, the new skeleton club there in Worthing that had been formed march, and they were actually using the old Bonfire club banner. Like they didn't even bother to create a new one. They just basically slapped skeleton over Bonfire Club just to get the point across here that these were the exact same people. Essentially, they just took their bonfire club thing and actually directed it toward a purpose. It was purposeless before it was all celebratory rabble rousing. Now it was. We're actually going to use those same tactics to get the Salvation army out of town.

Yeah, exactly.

The skeleton army would usually black their faces. Sometimes they did wear masks, but to let each other know who they were, they would wear the color yellow somewhere a lot of times with a ribbon of some kind or a sunflower to identify one another. And, yeah, it seems like that they were basically the same people, well know, kind of thinly disguised as the skeleton army. And these things would just happen all over the place in england until someone would come in, read the riot act literally, and break it up and know you have to disperse. Now, sometimes that went okay, and sometimes it didn't.

Yeah.

So the riot act, I didn't actually know the origin of it.

Did you? Yeah. Oh, you did?

I knew english major, so I didn't realize that. So I'm going to explain it to people who didn't realize it either. Okay.

No, you should.

So when you read somebody the riot act, you're basically, like, telling them that you don't like how they're acting, and you give them a warning about if they act that way any further, they're going to have their iPhone taken away or something.

Right.

There is actually a riot act from 1714, the British Riot act. And what you would do is if you were rioting, if you were breaking stuff, if you were a rowdy crowd, the army would come out and read the riot act that basically said, you got to stop what you're doing and disperse, or the army is going to make you disperse. And if you didn't disperse after reading the riot act, then the army would be forced to make you disperse. And the skeleton armies throughout england, I think, more than once had the riot act read and had the army called out on them because they were rioting so hard against the Salvation army.

Riot hard is a great album title for striper, right? Yeah, maybe for the new striper. Are they still together?

Did you find that out in your deep dive?

I don't remember where the last album was, but I'm pretty sure it was in the. They might be. I'm not sure. I don't remember. Sorry.

I could see them still playing shows with, like, less teased hair, but still sort of long and maybe like a half shaven beard kind of thing.

Yeah. Do you remember when we saw D. Snyder?

Oh, yeah, that's right.

I can imagine that they probably look a lot like D. Snyder these days compared to how D. Snyder used to look.

Yeah, we were on a talk show. This is back when people used to.

Call us for stuff like that.

Yeah.

Weirdly early on, we got way more press and invites to be on tv than we do now.

I'm fine with that. I like it now.

Oh, no, I totally am. I don't want to go.

I like being put out to pasture.

Yeah, I do too. But yeah.

D. Snyder was also a guest on the show and we met him not in the green room, but like backstage or something.

I would say in passing, yeah, he was one way. We're like, hey, D. Snyder. And just kind of gave us like a heads up, if I remember correctly.

And we were on first. And I think our joke at the time was that we opened up for twisted sister.

Yeah.

This last part that we're going to talk about, I don't fully, fully understand, to be honest. It has to do with the court system and whether or not. And peaceful assembly. And whether or not you can say, hey, it's a peaceful assembly. If you know you're going there and you're going to egg on people that will react in violence. Is that still a peaceful assembly?

Yeah.

It ties into what I was saying earlier, that people used to blame the Salvation army, including the courts, for inciting riots just from doing their thing. So while they were loud and they were singing off key and they were in your face about how you were going to hell, they were still under english law assembling peaceably. They weren't breaking stuff, they weren't breaking any laws, they weren't hurting anybody like physically or anything like that. So technically it was a peaceable assembly. But because almost invariably in some of these towns when they showed up and did their thing, a riot would break out. The Salvation army was held responsible in the courts for triggering riots. And they're like, you can't assemble anymore because you incite riots. Your very presence and finally some appellate court in the United Kingdom was like that don't quite track.

Right?

They said something like, what has happened here is that an unlawful organization has assumed to itself the right to prevent the appellants and others from lawfully assembling together.

Okay.

Basically saying that a man may be convicted for doing a lawful act if he knows that his doing it may cause another to do an unlawful act. And the extent of that is that you're not responsible for the act of another person. It's like if you trigger somebody and they punch you in the face, they're in trouble for punching you in the face. You're not in trouble for triggering them.

Right.

As much as you despise what the person might be saying, they might be saying it right in your face. You can't hit them. That's breaking the law.

Yeah.

Telling somebody that they're going to hell right in their face, it's not breaking the law. And so that actually established precedent in the english speaking world. In, I think, 1882, Beatty versus Gilbanks established that the Salvation army had the right to peaceably assemble even if it triggered riots. And that really kind of led to the idea that you can peaceably assemble even if the people don't want to hear what you have to say, and we'll riot. It's on the rioters, not on you, the person provoking them.

Yeah. And I think the question since then has been the sort of gray area of what constitutes a peaceful assembly.

Yeah.

Which is. I mean, if you're like a young anarchist, are you going to sue the government for breaking up your peaceable assembly? Probably not. So you're really kind of at the mercy of whatever mayor, police chief, who runs the town that you're assembling in. But there's a law in. Or there's a case that set precedent in 1977. National Socialist Party of America versus village of Skokie. There was a bunch of Chicago Nazis that wanted to march in Skokie, which had a huge population of jewish Holocaust survivors.

Right.

And Skokie said, no, you can't do that here. And the Nazis sued them and won. They didn't actually ever march, but they won that case. And it established that no matter how reprehensible your views, you have a right to say them in America. It's part of your first Amendment rights. And that is what the Blues brothers are referencing when they said they hate Illinois Nazis and they drive through that bandstand and make Henry Gibson and his nazi friends jump into the river. That's what they're talking about. Yeah, that case.

That's pretty cool.

I thought it was pretty cool, too. You got anything else?

I got nothing else. This is good.

I thought it was good, too. Who was it? Corey.

That was from Corey. Great suggestion, Corey.

Great suggestion, Corey. And, yes, this was a good one, Chuck. Since Chuck said this was a good one and I agreed, I think it's time for listener mail.

I'm going to call this nice little additional nugget of info from John hey guys, I was listening to the episode on the Franklin expedition. Longtime listener, first time writer. By the way, in the episode you collaborated to make up the pun name for a bad sailor, Leadfoot McCant swim. I didn't remember that until he wrote it was pretty funny and it brought up a nugget of a fact I learned a few months ago. I'm not sure if you were making this joke because of this, that you knew a lot of sailors back in that time couldn't swim, but you were right. Many sailors back in the day couldn't swim for a number of reasons. They range from a lack of resources such as warm water and time in which to learn to the desire of not to prolong suffering, which might happen if you were to find yourself overboard, like just go down. I guess it's pretty hardcore. Pretty hardcore. Sadly, stopping a ship or going back to save a sailor did not or could not have happened very often. So drowning might be the fastest and easiest way to go. I picked up this nugget from Peter Stark's book Astoria that covered the origins of Astoria, Oregon, being set up as a private trading colony by John Jacob Aster in an attempt to monopolize the Pacific fur trade.

If you're ever running low on topics, this would be a great episode, but I don't expect you're running low, so I plan on hearing about it in about 20 years.

Yeah, you never know.

You never know.

Who is Corey?

That's from John. He says, thanks for the knowledge.

Yeah, you never know. John, thank you for the knowledge. We appreciate you big time.

That's a good one. Non swimming sailors.

Yeah.

I did not see Oregon fur trading coming into that story, but here we are.

Yep.

Well, if you want to be like John and get in touch with us and make a suggestion for an episode, we'd love that kind of thing. You can wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send it off to stuffpodcast@iheartradio.com.

Stuff you should know is a production of iHeartradio. For more podcasts my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

In the new Amy and TJ podcast, news anchors Amy Roebach and TJ Holmes explore everything from current events to pop culture in a way that's informative, entertaining, and authentically groundbreaking. Join them as they share their voices for the first time since making their own headlines.

This is the first time that we actually get to say what happened and where we are today.

Listen to the Amy and TJ podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or.

Wherever you get your podcasts.

Walter Isaacson set out to write about a world changing genius in Elon Musk and found a man addicted to chaos and conspiracy.

I'm thinking it's idiotic to buy Twitter because he doesn't have a fingertip feel for social emotional networks.

The book launched a thousand hot takes, so I sat down with Isaacson to try to get past the noise.

I like the fact that people who say I'm not as tough on Musk as I should be are always using anecdotes from my book to show why we should be tough on Musk.

Join me, Evan Ratliffe, for on Musk with Walter Isaacson. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Tune in to the new podcast stories from the village of nothing, much like easy listening but for fiction. If you've overdosed on bad news, we invite you into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you. I'm Catherine Nikolai, and I'm an architect of cozy come spend some time where everyone is welcome and the default is kindness. Listen, relax, enjoy. Listen to stories from the village of nothing much on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.