You're listening to Ted Talks Daily, I'm your host, Elise Hu. Today on the show, we have activist Malala Yousafzai.

You might remember her from when the Taliban attacked her at age 15, nearly killing her because of her outspoken advocacy for girls education in her TED 20 20 conversation with Ted's current affairs curator, Whitney Penington Rogers.

She encourages us to stay hopeful in this time of crisis, but reminds us that the issues she fights for girls education and women's empowerment are key to rebuilding after covid-19.

I am absolutely thrilled to welcome Malala Yousafzai. Thank you so much. And, you know, first and foremost, congratulations on on your graduation. That is amazing. You recently tweeted that there will be lots of sleeping, reading and Netflix in your future. And so how does it feel to be finished with college and and what have you been up to these past couple of weeks?

So to be honest, my exams are really long. They were a month long exams and I was just exhausted. I needed a long, long break. Right now I am allowing myself I'm just saying that, OK, you are allowed to do this for a bit because you need a bit of rest and a bit of break. So so far it's spending time with family, resetting my room because it still looked like a high school girls room. And I was like, I'm a graduate now.

I need to change my room setting just to fit it all the you know, to see that transformation around me as well as much as I see it within me. And now I am unemployed looking for jobs at home. But I'm really happy and really, you know, just so excited and overwhelmed that I have graduated from Oxford. I finished my undergraduate in philosophy, politics and economics in the past few years have been incredible. I have grown so much.

I have learned so much from my friends, tutors and professors and and everything that I that I saw there. That's great.

Well, I'm glad to hear that you're actually making good on that tweet to to take some time to rest. So, of course, is one of the world's most famous advocates for girls education. This is obviously a really huge accomplishment, you know, to finish college. And I'm curious just how this has influenced you as an activist, especially thinking about the fact that you had to head to the West and leave Pakistan to acquire your education. You know what?

How is this influenced your work?

It was always my dream to go and study in Oxford. I think this is quite overwhelming because a life that I had expected was that I would continue my secondary schooling in Pakistan, that I will apply from there and just as any other student in Pakistan will do. But, you know, things all everything changed in 2012 when I was attacked and I had to move to the UK for my treatment, for my surgeries. And since then I have been getting my education in the UK.

I have been campaigning for other girls education as well, because I realised that education is empowering and there are 130 million girls who do not have access to it. And those are girls like me. Once I was in their place and I did not have access to school and I wanted somebody to speak out for me. And today those girls need voices. So I am out there speaking for them and also hoping that these girls have a platform where they can raise their own voices.

As you were juggling your studies with your work, how has your work with the Malala Fund and all of your activism evolved in the time since you've been at university?

To be honest, I, I had so much energy when I was like 15, 16. I was just travelling all around the world. I was in refugee camps. I was in Nigeria, I was speaking out for the girls were abducted by Boko Haram. I went to Iraq as well, and I have been to Brazil as well. So I've been sort of traveling around the world because I want to meet the girls and allow them to raise their voices, provide them a platform where they can speak out.

So in terms of that, it was quite a lot for me because I was still a school student and I will travel and give a speech somewhere. And then the next day I'll have a class and I would have homework to finish. I would stay up all night like finish my work in university. If I'm honest, I did not put too much academic pressure on myself. I allowed myself to have fun as well, which I'm glad I did.

I think I needed that to just spend more time with friends and just sort of be, you know, like other students. But at the same time, I gave my vacation time and my Easter holiday, my Christmas holiday to the activism that I do.

I definitely can imagine that it must be hard to live the life of a normal college student as someone who is a famous and renowned as you are. And so that's incredible to hear that you were able to sort of find that balance and experience college in the way that the average person does.

Actually, that's what of found that younger side of myself. I was always surrounded by much older people and there was a lot to learn from that. But this was the first time that I was engaging with people of my age.

Well, you know, I'd love to talk a little bit about your work and how it connected to this moment and thinking about education for girls. You know, communities around the world have been devastated by the coronavirus pandemic in so many different ways. And could you talk a little bit to how this global health crisis has impacted girls access to education specifically?

One hundred percent like in nineteen is affecting people globally, and that includes young girls as well. I'm the Malala Fund. We did a research and looking into previous cases like Ebola, and the research shows that there are more than ten million girls. Who are at risk of losing their education? These are girls who currently would drop out of their schools and may never be able to return to their schools, either because of early marriages, because of those cultural barriers that they face.

Parents are more likely to prefer early marriage for them than their education. But also a lot of them would be needed in the workforce because they will be a financial option for the family. And these are the girls who are really vulnerable to being trapped in that, and they may never be able to return to school. And this is what happened in the case of Ebola as well. There were many girls who did not return to their schools. And there is a risk that the same might happen to girls in this crisis as well.

And, you know, I think that some people might make the argument when you're thinking about what's happening with the pandemic, that we should really be focusing our energy on building back the economy and our public health systems and thinking about how to find a vaccine and that in this moment, it could be really easy for the issues for which you advocate to get pushed to the side. So, you know, could you talk a little bit about why you think it's so important in this moment that we keep the focus on girls education?

I think we should not forget about investing in girls, investing in women in their empowerment. They are sort of the key players in running countries, running our economies. And it's quite easy to forget about that and to ignore it. But I think it's time that we push governments and all the responsible authorities to not forget girls when they make policies, when they make decisions about future. I think one thing that is really at risk is financing for education that has been stagnated for the past years.

And there's a risk that that could go down further, that could go into negative. So we don't want that. I think the second thing would be safety and health. A lot of parents might be concerned about their children's health, especially young girls health, when they send their daughters to school. And I think that's something that the policymakers need to look into that. One other issue that is teen pregnancies and such situations such as the current pandemic, the number of teenage pregnancies will increase.

And then the risk is that when these girls return to school in many countries, in many local schools may not allow them to return to school. So it's important that those norms are challenged. And even if these teenage pregnancies or have become mothers that teenage, that they are allowed to get back into their education. And I think finally, we need data. We need to go and research and also ensure that this is gender disaggregated. And it's important that governments take responsibility for that.

And I see the risk of it being getting ignored. And as you were talking through this, it really strikes me that in this moment, you know, a lot of the work that you're doing, you often think about girls in developing countries and how access to education is limited in some places in the world. And I think even right now in wealthier nations, you're seeing, too, that there are lots of girls who are also not having the same access to school that they might have before the pandemic started.

So I think it's really interesting to think about how all the things you've just mentioned apply to every corner of the world right now.

You know, I love to talk a little bit also about just the current state of girls education. So there's data from UNESCO that shows that girls in the world's least developed nations went from spending less than three years in school, on average in 1970 to almost nine years in school and twenty seventeen. And this growth definitely in is in comparison to what we see in wealthier nations, where the average amount of time girls spends 17 years. But it definitely seems when you think about that, we look at those numbers that the situation has been improving.

And so when you think about your experience as a little girl in Pakistan and compare that with some of the other things that you're seeing now through your work, some of the girls who you just mentioned now, do you think that things are getting better still? Are you seeing that there are greater opportunities for girls around the world today?

There are different ways in which you can look at that. Firstly, in terms of passion of girls and girls activism and seeing young leaders among those who want to become the change makers. Yes. Hundred percent. There is hope. There's optimism in terms of the work that local activists do. They could be young. They could be, you know, men and women who are passionate about bringing education into their communities. They could be working in the most deprived, the most marginalized rural areas from Pakistan to Nigeria to Brazil to in all these countries and looking at their activism with limited resources and with so much hard work and with so many difficulties, that is truly inspiring.

And that gives you hope that with this passion, yes, we will see change. But then when you look at the government level and that global level in terms of where the resources are and how much is missing, how much is lacking in that, that is something that really concerns me. And I hope that world leaders make good commitments towards education. They make commitments towards financing the secondary education of girls, the quality education of girls, safe education of.

But also fulfill those commitments, sometimes they make commitments, but they hardly fulfill that. So it's important that we keep on pushing leaders to stick to what they have committed. And I'd love to talk about that more, just how we can keep leaders accountable and how we can ensure that they stay committed to this. One of the U.N. Sustainable Development Goals, actually two one is focused on quality education for all and then women's equality.

The UN hopes that we would achieve this by 2030, which is now just 10 years away. And I'm curious how you think we we can actually do the work of making that happen. What sort of things would you like to see from governments to to show that they really are making strides towards seeing this happen? So I think there are many ways that an individual can help, whether that is writing a letter to your MP to promoting it and spreading that message on social media, you know, tagging them, writing a letter to them, engaging in campaigning that is going on for girls education.

But another way which I truly believe in is that we need to support local activist, local educators. And that is the mission that Malala Fund has been working on over the past two years. We started this Malala Fund education activist network, and we are supporting more than 60 activists around the world in more than seven or eight countries. And there are also currently changing their work according to what how corporate has changed things for them. For instance, in Nigeria, our activists are using radio to give lessons and engaging education related content to children because that's sort of the means that works there.

But on the other hand, in Pakistan, the champions are working on using apps, but also national television, because that's something that people engage with the most. So I think it's working with the local community that's really important. And in that you can support Malala Fund or other organizations who are focusing on that. You know, my father and I started as local activists in SWAT Valley. So I understand what it means when you give even sort of legal support to a local activist.

It it impacts their world hugely and it helps them in so many ways to improve their work and reach out to many more girls. It's great. And I mean, you started to list some examples there that you've seen in Pakistan and other parts of the world of things that people are doing in other nations that you look to and think, wow, they've really figured this out. They're really getting it right in this in this way. And that you think nations can look to as models for how to implement some of these strategies for for girls in their own countries?

Well, I think in terms of like what is the ideal sort of model for girls education, I don't think there is consensus on that yet in terms of the country that we are working in. We're either the number of girls who are out of school is the highest. It depends on the area where, like in Lebanon, they are using these small electronic devices called the Shura, which has all the educational content that that those children need for that age and does not require that much electricity.

It can be connected to multiple computers and are very helpful in refugee camps. And they're using it for Syrian refugee girls. And they're also trying to promote it on the sort of country level in Lebanon as well. So it sort of varies across countries and where we are working. You know, on the one hand, it is a digital device. On the other hand, it's available in another country. It's it's an app or the national television. So I think that's sort of the bottom up approach that we we might need because there's not that sort of one fix solution if you, I don't know, send iPads to the north of Nigeria.

And if there is lack of electricity and Internet, that might not work. So it's important that you engage with the local activists and sort of find what is best for that area.

But we have tons and tons of questions coming in from our community. So why don't we take a couple of those right now? As a male university professor, what can others like me and society as a whole offer to support your passion?

How can we be the best allies for you? One way is to go on, Malala finds the website Malala dot org, and there are many ways outlined there, you can become a supporter, you can engage on our platform called assembly. Assembly is a platform with young girls share their stories. And I remember when I was blogging as an 11 year old girl, sharing my story of what my life was like under the Taliban. And a lot of people writing, a lot of people listen to it.

They supported me. So there are so many stories out there where girls are truly inspired. And, you know, when you see their commitment, their passion and their hard work, it's just incredible. And how do you get boys and men to buy into the importance of empowering girls and women?

When my father has sort of been an advocate in that, he always shares his story of how he was celebrating the birth of his daughter while his relatives and everyone else was telling my mom that next time, hopefully she will have a son. When I was born. So my father has always celebrated me as his daughter and he was passionate about girls education. So when you have many role models who are, you know, openly and vocally feminist, who not just verbally tell people that women are equal to men, but they practically show it.

I think that's the men we need who will say that they have giving equal opportunities to their daughters. They will allow them to do any job. They will allow them to have access to the same opportunities as boys have. There are so many ways in which men can help, and they're very much needed because when we talk on the bigger scale, that's where the problem lies. So when we talk about the decisions that are made in a room and mostly these when these decisions are about women, what you see is that there are men sitting on the table and there's a lack of women's representation.

There's sometimes no woman on the table. So it's important that we provide room for women to be on those tables where a decision about their future, about their bodies are made. So women's prisons, women's voices are very much needed. And I hope that men and boys need to sort of stand up for that and defend women's equality. Let's take another question here. I understand that the number of girls attending school has improved greatly, but the quality of that education is often sorely lacking.

What are your thoughts on the best ways to improve the quality of education once the girls are able to be in school?

I 100 percent agree. You know, when we talk about the girls out of school, that number is in millions. But the girls who are in school and are not learning that number is also in millions. And that is concerning because, you know, in the future there would be more than a billion girls who will not be ready to participate in the task force requirements that are needed at the time. So there is that concern that if girls receive quality education, they're not receiving education about technology that they might need in future.

They will not be ready to participate in the economy. And also, I personally think that we need gender sensitive curriculum. We need awareness about sexuality. We need awareness about personal protection. And I think this is very much needed, especially for young girls. So they are like teaching. The Malala Fund focuses on what is financing for education. There's a huge gap in that and that's what we have been pushing for. Second is quality of education. And with that, we are working with local activists as well, looking into technology and then making gender sensitive.

And the last is challenging social norms that prevent girls from going to school. Let's take one more question.

Do you have plans to go back to Pakistan? How much of your future advocacy do you plan to focus in your home country?

So advocacy has been focused in Pakistan. We have been doing projects there in the village that my father comes from, Shangla. Both my parents are from that village and there was no secondary school for girls. And when I started activism and then I was receiving the Nobel Peace Prize, and at that time I felt like I need to start from my home country and I need to start from that village. So I donated that money towards that project. So in Pakistan, we have been working on their school and now girls are studying in the school, the first secondary school in that village.

And everybody is just so excited and all the girls are so, so excited to be in their school. And I also heard one time that they were given sort of their break. And a lot of girls just complain that they don't want breaks and they just want to be in school because it has provided them that safety and that opportunity to be creative and have that time with their friends that they may not be able to get otherwise. So that has been our work in Pakistan.

We want to do even more and we are planning on advocacy for the next few years. I definitely want to go to Pakistan and that is my home country and and I love where I'm from. SWAT Valley. It's one of the most beautiful places I've ever seen. We are surrounded by these tall mountains and these beautiful rivers. So it's really a heaven on earth. So. Whenever this pandemic restrictions are lifted and whenever things are back to normal, I would love to go back to Pakistan and you've mentioned how important it is to have voices.

And we've seen so many other people in so many other spaces standing up and speaking out against injustice and inequality and calling out leaders, people like Gartenberg and Emma Gonzalez and the young people leading Hong Kong's umbrella movement and so many others. And I think a generation is definitely at the center of so much social change. And in many ways, you are the first with the mother of this youth activism movement. And so I'm curious what you think about as you see so many young people making real change out there in the world.

To be honest, when I started my activism, as you know, 10 or 11 year old girl, what really helped me and what really inspired me was the support from my father and my teachers and other people who believe in my voice at that age. Anyone could have easily told me that Malala, your 11, you have no right to say anything about these very serious issues. And you can go sit in your room, do some drawing and read some books and that's it.

But I'm glad that my father and others stood by me. They valued my voice. They supported me. And this is needed more than ever. So I am glad that I believe in myself and I step forward. And I took myself seriously right from the start. Other people don't listen to me. That doesn't matter, because as long as I keep on fighting, I know that they will at some point. But when I start doubting myself, I think that's the time when I when I sort of feel so when I'm seeing these young leaders speaking out, whether for climate change and gun control and girls are talking about, you know, freedom and and freedom of expression.

And I feel so, so happy. I cannot express in words. And I hope that this group of young activists, it grows bigger and bigger. We are the future. We care about our future. We want a healthier we want to see if we want a better world for all of us. And I think that we need to start our activism now because there is just so, so much that needs to be done and that needs to be fixed.

So I'm curious, you know what what do you see, I guess, for yourself in 10 years, 20 years and and even at the end of your lifetime, when you look back and see what you've accomplished, what do you really hope your your greatest impact on history will be?

My biggest, biggest dream wish is to see every girl in school. That has been my dream sort of since the day when I myself was out of school. I really remember that moment when I woke up on the 15th of January 2009 and I could not go to school. This was because the Taliban had done girls education in SWAT and nobody was allowed to go back to school. And I realized that education was more than just learning from textbooks and more than just writing and reading.

It was about emancipation for women. I felt more vulnerable to being married at early age, to being discriminated, not being able to achieve my dreams, whether that was to become a doctor or a teacher. So these are the things that are taken away from you at the same time. Since then, I have stayed committed to girls education and I hope that in my lifetime I see that I believe in it. You know, sometimes it sounds sort of too optimistic, but I think we can do it.

And I think there's there's a lot more to fix that we need to do a lot more about empowering women, allowing girls to dream big and to dream sort of beyond what society tells them to do. And I want to see more women in leadership. I want to see women running countries. I want to see women, you know, running companies and big farms and going to space and, you know, working in technology and being part of all those sectors that are out there.

So I hope to see that in my lifetime. Great. I think what inspires a lot of people and what makes so many people look to you as a source of of of hope is this fearlessness that you seem to have this this feeling that you can sort of take anything on. And I'm curious what makes you afraid, I guess, in this moment? And then finally, what what makes you most hopeful? But what scares you? Oh, I think what scares me is probably being too slow and not being not being true to myself, I have always believed in activism.

I've always believed in change. And I think it is possible if you stay committed to it. So I hope that I stay committed to it and I hope that I'm surrounded by the right people who guide me in the right path. And it is true. People get exhausted, people get tired, people lose hope. They don't see any change. They're surrounded by people who might be encouraging them not to speak out because just telling them that it could be controversial or they might lose support for those sort of things are there.

And I think it's staying strong in the middle of those constraints that are out there. So I think that's something that I really hope that we all continue to have. What gives me hope is the hope that young people have in this younger generation. They are the future. And I'm really, really happy and hopeful that they will be change makers and they will improve this world. They will fix what you know are our fathers and forefathers have sort of the mistakes that they have made and they'll fix the system that they have created.

And we will remove racism and sexism and other discriminations that exist. It might take time, but we will stay committed to it and we will make a world that is fair and equal for everyone. PR ex.