I'm based in London and L. A. I go back and forth, but I just follow the work with that period. But I think that period of my life is stopping, just going with the work, essentially my work being my wife, the jet and sand and whatever she wants. Yeah. I do. But I don't know if I like that relationship anymore. You feel me? In the way that it's.

Been- The working relationship.

-putting her before me.

I see.

When it's coming from me.

Is it two-way?

No. It's not. It's not. It's just the way I have set up the relationship is whatever she wants, whatever is... All right, cool, this is what we're going to do. All right, cool, let's go there. I've done that for basically 18 years. And I can see it's taking this toll on me because it's not reciprocal.

Yeah. Have you talked to her about it?

Yeah, that's why I went away. I see. The work, I mean, that's why I went away to go, This isn't all right. This is not sustainable, do you know what I mean? Yeah. It got me to where I wanted to get to very quickly, which I think I wanted. I'm looking at it and going, What do I want? I'm now realizing, especially after this kitchen process, I'm realizing this is all a reflection of me working. It's all a reflection of who I am and my character. Not what I can do is who I am. If I'm not pouring into who I am, what am I doing?

Do you feel like you're always in the characters you play?

Yeah, of course. I always feel like, how I've always seen acting is like, I'm using who I am to show you who I'm not.

Say more about that.

This guy is here, this character, this guy is here. I go, Cool. I go to him, and I find similarities. I find things that, Oh, he's like me like this. He's like me and, Oh, that's how I can... Because I want to root it in something real and present it and put on a patina and an esthetic and a whole aura that isn't me, but because it's rooted in something that I connect with, do you know what I'm saying? It's rooted. It's like difference between what I aim for. I don't give you a pot of plant and go here. Itry to go, Come, look what I've grown. You know what I mean?

How long does it take before you become the version that we get to see?

I'd be like probably a month. I probably lock myself off for a month, and I just immerse myself. I think about it, I dance around it, but I think I'm just getting intel and staff and information like, Oh, I'm interested in that. I'm interested in that. I'm cool. It just starts arriving.

Real things. This wouldn't be what you're discussing is at rehearsal. This is like you understanding who the person is in the context of this project.

Is that right? Yeah, it's like... So when I'm on set, I'm not actually working, I'm presenting. You're just being them. I'm being, I'm like... It came from a process. I learnt this way because I did this play when I was 21 called Suckerpunch at Royal Court, and then I was overweight, and then I got cast and they were like, You're just going to do it. I had to be a lightweight boxer. I just was like, I'm going to do it. I'd never been slim in my life. And I was like, All right, cool, I'm on it. Then I got down to 11 stone and I can't remember what that's in pounds. Well, I lost 42 pounds in three months. Wow.

How did you do that?

Boxing, skipping. I sat down with a nutritionist with a British tennis team, and I just was non-stop. I was non-stop. How I did that is I had a target, I had a purpose, I had a reason. Because if I did that now without the purpose, I wouldn't get there. If I'm being real, I had a reason that I connected with emotionally and I got there. But when I did that, when I then performed it, I was like, I am different. I didn't have to act. It's coming from like, Yeah, well, I box. I skip. Every night I was getting chin splints. And then in the block that I grew up with, when there's the swings and then there's the soft bit of a swing, I had to skip on that to do 30-minute skipping every night because I did this two-minute monolog where I had to skip and act in the round and go and do tricks. I would do 30 minutes every night, and the people I grew up with, I remember one time I had to have my headphones and listen to music, skip it, skip it, skip it. And then I didn't realize my boys I grew up with were behind me watching because my back was tearing them.

They looked at me and I turned around, this is ten o'clock at night, and they looked at me and I was like, It's acting things serious for you, isn't it? I was like, Yeah. I said, Oh, because it's just dedication. And then when I was playing the character, I didn't feel I was acting, I was being. So then I found a point. I found like a North Star, and then I reached for that. That was a long process. Three months I was gifted in that. You don't usually get that, do you know what I'm saying? But now I always reached for that lived-in nature of the character where I'm not really acting, I'm just there.

What happens, offset. Can you turn off the character? Are you the character for that whole window of time on an offset?

Like, No, but I'm in the vibe. I'm in the vibe because I'm doing his rituals, offset. You know what I'm saying? So say as if Chairman Fred had heard that he listened to Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, I would just listen to that every morning. Every morning, non-stop, and the exact.

Speeches that I've heard. So you're living the.

Character's life? So I don't have to be the character when I'm in my wood. I used to keep the accent going throughout, and then I realized it's just I need to rest. Do you know what I'm saying? And so it actually makes it richer if I rest. I would just be myself, but doing what he does, listen what he does and getting in that vibe and understanding and having goals. Someone that had said to me is like, you sniff around the character, you sniff around him and you understand his rituals, his habits, his things. But this is someone playing a real-life person where it was a different thing for me because usually if you have a character, you're creating the target. You know what I'm saying? While we've been playing a real-life character, there is a target.

How important is that your representation of a known character is like that known character? Or can you find either a metaphorical or some other variation on that character that's more interesting to play that character?

I think at the end of the day, you've got a narrative that isn't a documentary. Yeah. So you're serving a story, so it has to be an interpretation. If you do it, sometimes I've seen people do real-life people, and they've got it right, but it feels wrong because you're serving a piece, you're serving an intention. So then what I do is I watch that person and I go, How does he make me feel?

I.

Want others to feel like that. Then I go for the energy that makes people feel like that, and then that allows me to make other decisions.

How much is body language a part of it?

Yeah, a lot. Everything. It's the aura, it's the essence, how you walk, how you drop your head, how you look someone in the eye, how you tilt your head, how you like just the whole... I smoke. Say, as in Judas, I would just smoke and I don't smoke. I would smoke every night like herbals, and just because I get really frustrated when I see actors that don't smoke, smoke, and it feels inaccurate, and it's just like two seconds on screen, but that stuff gets you out of it. I would smoke every night and film myself and go, Do I bite? Yes or not? Do I bite? Yes or not?

You'd film yourself, like testing yourself almost.

To see if it's real. Amazing. Because if you're saying a line and just going for a smoke and even having the instinct of wanting to smoke and when you have the instinct is a-Or.

Even the way you hold the cigarette, every aspect.

Of it. Exactly. It has to be lived in. It's the detail that actually gets it to the next level. Yeah, my lines or deliveries, whatever, it's just those little things. It's like, I think certain things you're like, Oh, I've got big or... And then I'm like, I'm too big, and then I go cardio. I go video because it's just like, Yeah, he was big, but he has to feel nimble. Do you know what I'm saying? It's just everything is that go into a feeling.

And then.

Everything is just not an imitation, is interpretation. Do you know what I mean? And so then it's vulnerable, but you have to go, This is what I think. And people go, Well, I don't think that. Well, yeah, but this is what I think, and you have to just stand on it. But for me, I have to just be so committed and confident to stand on what I feel and what I think, you know what I'm saying? So that no one can...

Nothing can knock you off because you're being it. You're not trying to do it. You're being it.

I'm being it, and I like this. I like this is what I like. Oh, this is what I like.

This is.

What I like. If you can at this what I like, and if you are very aware and very in tune with what you like, I feel like no one can shape me. I just stand on that.

How similar would you be from take to take, or might it be really different because you're just the person and the person wouldn't do it the same way every time?

I'm not even aware. I know I've got the same structural, skeletal. I do things intentional, like say there's a rise in pitch, that's intentional. I remember when sometimes I do ADR, which is additional dialog recording when you go back, and then they were like, Oh, yeah, it's really quiet here. Could you say it louder? I'd go, No, I meant that. But in terms of how I do that, I let go of being good a long time ago. And being great a long time ago. I want to be honest. And it liberates me when I watch my work a year later and you go, Flip, I want to do it like that now. And then what's frustrating about the process of acting is that you're the best person for the job at the end of the job. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. And so you're like, Oh, snap. Fuck. But you have to just commit to where you're at and be like, This is how I feel. This is what it is. And so sometimes it's like that. That's how I feel. And I just let it go and then boom, let it go then boom.

If I know what it's about, I know what I want. And if someone does something different, how could I not respond to that? It's listening and responding. It's as simple as that. It's not really... Yeah, rough as that. But sometimes people find it really hard to just listen and respond to that. It takes a long time to get to that place to find that simplicity of going, You're doing that, I respond to that, and then it's that.

And when you're listening, you're listening to the actual words, you're listening to what the person is saying to you and reacting to those words.

Yeah, and the tone, everything. You're listening to everything, the body language, the energy, what those thoughts trigger in you, you and you're open. So whatever you anything you back on that from improvisation. I did improvisation for three years, from 13 to 16. That was how I got into acting. I didn't look at the script. So you have to be present. I had this... I used to have this saying when I was doing improv, like to Anna Shares, she passed away recently, RIP, man. But I had this rule, once you're in your head, you're dead. You know what I mean? Yeah. I'm there. Yeah. And whatever you do, I'm taking her in. Because you're not having lines. Anything is a clue for the next line so we can build, so we can find out who your character is, who my character is, what is the storyline and narrative and then we line on something and we're like, Let's go. And so then when I then was giving lines and characters to the story, I was like, Wow, this is a lot. This is an abundance. But I'd still keep my thing was like, When something is so premeditated, how do I keep that essence of real life?

How do I keep that essence of spontaneous? How do I keep that essence of randomness? How do I keep the essence of... Do you know what I mean? And how do you do it? You're asking.

Tell me how, yeah.

Do you want to try doing that?

Okay.

I'd say as if I'm doing improv or not. I'd say as if I'd go like... Where's your socks?

I don't wear socks.

I don't wear socks. Why are you moving your hand like that? I don't even know why you're moving your hand like that. I told you where your socks. I'm not even being this way. Why are you moving your hand like that?

How was I using my hand?

You were using your hand, Rick.

You're using your hand.

Yes, I'm using my hand to express how you're using your hand. There's no.

Point in it. You were using your hand before I use my hand.

Probably not even smiling. What's funny? Do you think it's funny? It's funny. What's funny? I don't find it funny.

It's funny that we're having a.

Conversation about hands. No, I don't even think of shit like that. No, I don'tIf you want to do all this stuff, you got me out here doing all high movements, smiling, showing me in your teeth, and I'm sitting there trying to be serious. I don't know what the fuck you're on. Bro, you're.

Still laughing. I'm still laughing.

It's funny. Yeah, all right, you're a comedian then. I know, I get you do comedies. Because you do comedy, you want to be a comedian.

You're the comedian. I'm not the comedian.

Yeah, because I've done a couple of comedies in the couple of my life, bro. I've done a couple of comedies. I'm not proud of the comedies I've fucking done, but I'm fucking... And it's that.

And so.

Now it's about us. Probably you're a better comedian than me. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm pissed that you're better. That's really the undercurrent is that you're a better comedian than me. We're two comedians and you'll find it funny and I'm insecure, but you run. It's not premed... You just... You just.

Go and you just go and you just go and you just listen. You listen to what's there and.

You respond. And then you go, and then if you're with someone you go, I quote the comedians. I'd quote, I quote, I think you're really funny. I don't think I'm just cool about being funny. Anything you do, I'm going to fucking gaslight you. But then you just trying to sound it and then you build and build. That's what I learnt. That's what Anna Share Theater was about. That's what I... I mean, it makes you go and you want to... For me and also as well, it's like you have this other fourth wall of which is a bunch of kids that don't give a fuck that you're trying to make laugh or you're trying to make listen or you're trying to lean in, and it's just grabbing that and giving real reactions because you're just in it. So then obviously, when you're doing a scene, once you're in it, you give a little bit of leeway, so in the edit, come a couple of improvised lines that they can play with in the edit and stuff like that, but then it actually gets you to double down and understand where your character is coming from and play with ideas and go, Oh, yeah, that didn't work.

But then cut it if it doesn't work. It's a hard thing to describe, but because it was the way that I learned how to do it is something I intimately know. Reading people and knowing every single inch, we are so limited to words mentally, like thinking that we just say things with words. We say things with everything. Words are a technology. You know what I mean?

It's like the iPhone. And not a great.

One, honestly. No, it doesn't really describe how you feel. I'd say that more time, Joe. It's what you do. When you understand that dichotomy, then you're able to swim around and play around and then build upon and then it's that thing where you're accepting saying yes. Say, if I said you were a comedian, you can't say, No, I'm not a comedian, because then that stops the flow.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Is that a rule of improv?

Yeah. Well, what I study, yeah, it's good to accept to say yes. Any idea that's thrown, you say build, yes, and.

Yes, and?

Yes, and.

Do anything's come up in improv that become things you have in your pocket that you could use again someday? Is every improv starting from zero? Or might you say something one night that you think is funny and that you remember, and then that might come back? Do you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, it could do. It could do. But I think where the class that I learnt all this from, it was about throwing it away. Sometimes there would be device pieces that the kid that had the play was like, Oh, yeah, I want this to happen. I want this to happen. This to happen in the scene. And it was our job, how we got there. Do you know what I'm saying? And then if you're doing it again, say as if you won the... You was voted best play, best devised play, and you did it for the performance, then you would have to remember what really worked about it, but still keep it loose enough to find some new stuff, but then not to be too indulgent where you're actually just wanking off and just going, Oh, look how quick and great we are actually going and serving the goal and the intention of the piece. Now we are clear about who we are. You know what I mean? It's freedom. But also once you land this restraint and finding freedom within that restraint and within those boundaries, it's my... I've never really even thought about this, but this is how I feel I learned.

Through it. When you're doing improv, you mentioned being in it with the person that you're doing it with or the people you're doing it with, but you also have an audience. Are you aware of them? Do you take them into consideration? Are they part of the improv or not?

Yeah, because it'd be fake for them not to be. Because they're there. Yeah, because they're there. It's a performance, it's not a conversation. This is just my philosophy, my belief. I'm there to serve the audience and grab their attention. I think the class that I grew up in this bunch of kids, and when you're crap, they laugh. You know what I mean? It was the toughest play. It was so real. You wasn't entitled to their attention. If you're boring, they would start playing on their phone and playing... What was it? Back in the day with Snakes and Nokia, they were playing games. They were like, whispering, this guy, shoot, and you would hear it.

It's not like they're dead, where that chair is dead dead, and you hear what they're saying. That does something to you. It forces you to get good. It's an instant feedback that makes you go, This isn't the right decision, and forces you to go into another place if you wish to. Do you know what I mean? Or you could just stop, but then what? You can't stop because you're on the stage. It's a big stage. Then for me, it's just like I go, I want them to lean in. I want them to listen. I want them to be with you. You can feel them there with you. When you're with them, you've got them and you roll. It's like a very like it's a relationship that they're there. But again, them having to feel like it is private, do you know what I'm saying? And they're not there. It's a thin line of making it feel real, but also understanding that you're doing it for them. That's the line that you're treading.

You can't break that wall and start talking directly to them, or.

Can you? You can if it's required. I remember one time I did a pilot. I was announcing a pilot, and then I just did this random voice, and I looked directly to them because I don't know, I just felt I need to do it right to them because it was just a surreal moment in the improv. But you could do what you want as long as it feels real. Just don't reject it. It's like, I want to do that, I'm going to do that. Because more time is about... Anyone that's like that and doing that is like, Well, who's that in the scene? You know what I mean? In certain scenarios.

When it's happening, are you always in the moment? Are you ever thinking ahead?

I'm in the moment. The moment gets me ahead. If I take a step, I want to go there. If I trust that I'm going to want to go there, I'm not going to focus on... I'm just going one step, one step, one step. What's that thing? Drop by drop, a river is formed. Focus on that. If you really mean it, you want to go there. If you focus on this, you'll get there. It makes you surrender and not be too controlling.

Yeah, it sounds like free, like you're free.

And it's a great feeling. Present, present.

It probably is also tiring because you have to really be paying attention.

It's very like you're on. It's like heightened. Because that was my way of creating. Now in every state of creating, I'm in that height and that's why it's quite draining, because I'm just so on. I'm so... It's like, say, if I do certain interviews or it's just the way I show up in a focused way and I'm like, I'm on. I'm like, Cool, take in, and then you have to go to places that top you up and water you and stuff like that.

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You said that there was probably a time that you wanted to be good or great, but then you got to the point of where you realized you just want to be honest. When you think that shift happened.

I was tired of killing myself. I was tired of ruining myself when I watched my performances. I was like, I hate this. Why did I do that? I wouldn't do it. You're crap, you're this. So much self-hate. I was like, Bro, if I keep doing this, I would not want to do this. This isn't fun. This isn't... What's the point? I'm going to go, What am I doing? I'm ruining them. I'm so tough on myself because I wanted my stands were so high. But I would feel that, say, as if I'm doing this... Remember, this is after school club, these improvs. It's Five Pound of Class, it's for underprivileged kids. So I'm doing it, and I do it improv, and then I'm on the bus home and I'm lying with my parents, and I'm like, Fuck, I should have said that. Fuck, I should have said that.

Beating yourself up.

For the whole week, Rick. The whole week, I'm at school thinking I should have said that. And then you're building upon that line, you're building the building. Like, Well, next time. I just got in that habit of, I think getting in a habit is probably what my inner dialog, it was at that time. I was just beating myself up, going, No, no, no, no, no, no, no. And then when I get the bang. So then when I was more in a professional context and I watched my work, I just did the more professional version of that. And I'd be like, No. But yeah, it's really tougher because now it's like millions of people watching it. And it's not like a week ago, it's like four months ago or six months ago, or a year ago, and you're like, and you've grown so much and you're looking at it, you go, They are shit. You know what I'm saying? And you're like, Wack, whack, whack, whack. And then I just realized that me wanting to be so good and so great was hurting me. And then not only it was hurting me, it was... In hindsight, I didn't realize that at the time, but in hindsight, I see that it was limiting my growth and how much I could be, because I was prioritizing how I was perceived or my ego or just I wasn't in service of the piece.

I was in service of myself and wanting the next job or looking good in front of people or looking like the best or all that shit, I was more focused on that as opposed to just telling the truth and going on. Do you know what I'm saying? And so then I realized that when I tell the truth and go home, when I'm honest, then I'm free. If I pour and give all that I can, and I'm honest, I'm genuinely free. No one can say anything to me, especially me.

Yeah, because you're being true in the moment, and that's all.

There is. It's all there is. I did all I could, and I'm feeling like, yeah.

Could you have played a wild Bill in the movie instead of Fred Hampton? Yeah. And what would that have been like? How would it have been different?

You can't have the light without the dark.

Yeah.

If it's consistently light, you ain't going to register it as light. It's just consistent. It is.

Yeah, and there's nothing.

There's nothing. When you have the dark, then you are able to identify and define the light. I believe that whatever the storys wants from me, I am prepared to give it. And whatever it wants from my soul and where I'm at or where the director feels I'm at, or then I can go, Right, cool. Is it whether I want to get in that space or not? But I do think that I could have played him, yeah. It's just that Shaqq, the director at the time, saw that his vision is the Keith's energy, do you know what I'm saying? But I think it would be a different film, though. Yeah, for sure. And that's my thing. It's like every different... It's just a different thing, you know what I mean?

Tell me about the different directors you've worked with. How different are they?

So someone like Steve McQuinn, right? I see him as like a composer. He describes it to me, it feels like jazz, that we are all jazz players. And he's looking for the surprising moments. He's looking for that, that when a thought arrives to you in the moment, he's creating boundaries and everything, and he puts people that he trusts and are that way inclined, that are open enough to say the thing and then let reality show up through us. He is that, and he's got an innate understanding of human beings. I remember one time I did a scene and he was doing another scene in a different location, and I went to do a bit of that, a stunt rehearsal, and I came back to the other location he was at, and he said to me, What did the room tell you? And he said, Oh, you get it. Oh, yeah, I get it. Yeah, that's the way it does. You go in there, you don't know what you're going to do. When you've got the sight, I learn the lines, and then you're like, I'm like 60 % there. Then the room's got to tell you what to do, the energy's got to tell you what to do.

Then you start making decisions because that's what life is like. I came in there, I thought I was going to be in a seated situation with you. You used to, yeah, no socks. I thought this can't be so I was like, I've got to take off my shoes and I'm here. It's the environment then you're in it. So I think he very much encourages that, and actually prioritizes that.

Even in terms of dialog, he's more flexible with the dialog to where improvisation is more a part.

Could do, but I think I tell you what it is about improv. I was always in improv, but then I started being quite enamored with how you get that improv quality within the restraint of... I think that's what doing theater gives me.

Where it's like you can't change it. Does that have to do with timing? It's like when you say the line, how loud you say the line, the pitch, how long you wait before you.

Say all those things. I just got really like, I found it really rewarding to go, How do I... I could say a line that makes that happen, but then that just means I don't trust the writing. And if I trust the writing and go, All right, cool. Actually, it was actually an experience on Secario and learning from Benicio and watching Benicio del Toro. And he was like, You're like, How do you say less? He was taking outlines. I'd never seen that in my life. I was like, This guy is a dot. And then he's just like, And it is that. He's just like, I could say it with my face. I could say that with my face. And I started to be more going, How do I say more with less? I started being way more on it with that. And I think it's just my thing. I'm not saying it's like better than anything else. I justI just go, Oh! It feels like because I don't think people expose much in real life, do you know what I mean? In terms of their manner, only in extreme situations they do when.

They're really pushed. And in terms of a challenge, getting all of the content across without saying anything, that's a noble challenge to take on. How do you do that?

It's cool. Yeah, it's cool. I just find it cool. That's how I would do that. But then it was like, How do I express that improv quality with a look, with a gesture, with an energy shift? As you do that, that's what the camera really reads, because then you're not saying four, you're saying two plus two, and then the audience leans in. If I give you the line and tell you four for four, then you're like, You know what I mean? Jay-z album. You know what I mean?

Because you're having to - It's like you're finding the words as you're saying them.

The.

Camera sees you finding the words, not just saying the line.

The thought is what... Especially during this process on the kitchen and being in the post-production, detailed in the edit, I'm always finding it interesting when the thought arrives. That's what I realized. It made me articulate what I care about when I act. It's like, boosh. That's what's fascinating, and then what are you going to do with that?

Yeah, you may say the line you might not even say the line because you feel the thought.

The thought.

Yeah. You see something happen.

Yeah. That shift is what is rewarding, is seeing an evolution. That's what you want. That's what the enamouring quality of storytelling is evolution. So if you see someone changed by someone, it's happening. And if you are ready, then you're ready. But if you go and you move and then you move on that, then the thought brings the light. I'll give you an example. Say I see people like, I've seen my friends like, Oh, Daniel, brother, I ain't seen your film. I don't know about it, but I said, Bro, it's cool. I was like, No, it's not cool. I want to see it. I said, Bro, the fact you want to is the thing. When you do it is up to your life. Like you may have kids, you may do whatever. The want is the thought, and that's the valuable thing. The act is the product of the want. That's how I see the acting thing is like the line is the product of the thought, and seeing that thought arrive is the valuable bit of the storytelling for me. And so then I go, and then the line is the actualisation of that shift.

I look to someone else's line, I'm listening, going, What is triggering this thought that makes me say this line? That's what I'm looking out for. I'm there with you, and one of the most amazing things I've ever seen in my life and acting is a mad simple. I saw Josh Brodyon did something amazing. I said a line and then I'm not trained, so sometimes I have dictionary and issues. And then so I'm working on it continuously. And then when I was in Secario, I said that I was in the sea and then we was going for it. And I said the line, and Josh had the line next. Then he just went, What? I was like, Then I said the line again, and then he just went, What? And I was like, And then I said the line again. And then he replied, Because he's there.

Yeah.

He's not got the performance ready. Yeah.

He's listening. He's listening.

He's listening. He's listening. So he's like, What? Yeah. And then I had to say it again, I go, Oh, yeah. But it's not like... That revolutionized my whole brain. I was 25. I'm going, What the fuck? That is the coldest shit I've seen in my fucking life. It's so simple. It's like an insignificant scene. It was like, That is one of the most... Like, he was dead and it weren't fake. And it made me go, That's the North Star. I'm in it. I'm not going to say it until I hear it. Why am I saying it? It's as simple as that, and it's the audacity to stand on that and commit to that. Because that's what real life is. If someone... You just go, What did you say? There's someone I know, she's from the south, and I've got a deep London accent, and we don't really understand each other. I have a misinterpret her. She misinterpret me. But we have got bell intentions, but that's what life is. And that's what you want. You just want to be listening, and then that dictates every other decision. But yeah, that's Stephen McQuinn who creates that space, and then someone else that's extreme in another sense would be, I think, Ryan Kugler, very much, very bespoke, I would see him, very bespoke that he speaks- Describe that.

He speaks to everybody differently. He speaks to everyone he understands, and he's in it with you. Say, as if there was like a screen test and it was really cold and the girls were doing a screen test, he would take his jacket off and be in his T-shirt because I'm in it with you. You know what I mean? He's in it with you. You don't feel like an object. You know what I'm saying? You feel like you have a collaborator, you have a partner, you have someone that's in the battle with you. Then he knows you and he'll speak in your what would bring what he wants out of you, but he would speak in the way that you would understand. I see he would speak differently to different people. -that's interesting. -that was really interesting. That was really interesting to see that. It's something that I have adopted when I have directed and stuff and knowing that you've got to speak in a way that it's not about just communicating. People think communication is expression. Communication is commune. So you have to receive it in order for it to be communicated. And so people just prioritize what I want to say, and they don't acknowledge in how you receive it, and if you will be able to.

Land it. It's about landing.

Your life. Yeah, and I think he understands that, and he understands I want it to really land, so I'm speaking to you. You feel quite spoken to and seen enough.

How different is it depending on the skill level of the actor you're working with?

It's different in the sense that I think doing a lot of low-budget stuff, the start of my career, it was all low-budget and short films, and you're not really... A, you have only two takes. You don't have a lot of time, you don't have a lot of your time, and B, not everyone's there. I think I've learnt how to... If the camera is not on me, I've learnt how to lean heavy on something to get it out. I'm going to give it tailored to you the most you need so that it really comes out and jumps out. If I hear some director saying something, I would then support what he's saying and support what he wants because it's about it coming out, because we're in the end. But some people don't need to do that, and then they're able to get their own... I don't even know if it'll surprise you and that will evolve what you're doing. So it's more like a dance that it can... Yeah, it's like a dance and sometimes you have to lead more than needed. But if someone is able to understand the steps, then then you go into new spaces and do some new moves.

But it's a reflection of what both of you intended and what you.

Want from the beginning. Do you ever have it the other way where you're working with someone who's just so great that you feel like it makes you better?

Yeah, I've had a couple of moments when I was like... I've had a couple of moments when I was like, I've had a couple of moments when I want someone to say something. I actually stopped telling him I was young and I was like, That's not in the script. But he said the line so fresh.

And.

So present and so in it that it felt improv. It felt like he made it up. Yeah. I was like, Huh? Until then I stopped. Then I was like, Whoa. I'll tell you it was Chris O'Dowd. I did this TV show with Chris O'Dowd, and he just said this, I was like, What the fuck? It just went, what? Then I was like, Oh, A, I wasn't in it. B, I was too premeditated in terms of what you were. I was so controlling because I've been worked... I hadn't worked with people that were high level, probably at that point. I was 19 and I was like, Oh, you're going to say in a way I wouldn't even imagine you're going to put intonations in places. I was like, Wow, shit. Then it made me just let go of preconceived notions and preconceived thoughts. Then they go just be more like, Cool. They could say anything, it could come any way and a bit more. And I think that makes you... What I'm learning now is not like, growth is not about adding, is about subtracting and going, Oh, I can let that go. And then you're richer for what you let go.

You know what I mean? It's what I've learnt about when you're dealing with someone great. So say there's that Josh Rowland story that's dealing with someone great. And he showed me like, I've got addiction. There's this thing that's in my way, I have an anxiety about something that I need to let go of. But also that I assumed he's just going to say the line because I said it, you know what I mean, as opposed to... Because that's the job, as opposed to completely different idea, which is actually being present truly and listening. It's taught me a lesson in listening. Yeah. That was like, come with less, come to the scene with less, and then you will feel more.

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How would you say developing these skills in your craft impact your daily life? Are you always listening? Are you always in that... Regardless of whether you're on or not, how is life different than how it used to be for you?

I think yeah, I probably listen too much, and that's probably why I lean on certain devices to distract. Say, if I'm taking too much in, I'll be food, taste, like my phone, like things that I like, substances, you know what I'm saying? I'll be just like, Cool, let me get out of this... I'm in a vein, like we used to be drink or you know what I'm saying? It's like, you just get out of this vein because I'm taking in too much and I have too many feelings about what I'm taking in. It basically makes me highly sensitive. So then I like silence. I like being by myself. I'm very comfortable in my own company because there's less to respond to. I can hear people's chaos, and I can hear what they say. I can hear it. You can hear it way more. And you have to like... I've had to learn tools to deal with that and actually be okay with it. It's actually being okay with what it triggers in me. I read somewhere like, I never used to be able to sit through a film because it used to trigger me too much and I'd fall asleep.

Really? I remember it was the pandemic. The pandemic showed me that because it was like I had loads of sleep. Then I would watch a film- But you could still fall asleep. -and I would fall asleep. It wasn't about sleep. I was like, Why am I sleeping? But it was just a moment-.

It was like an escape.

You wanted to escape. I had too much. I was... I would watch the film every day at 11:00 AM in the pandemic. I've had my good night's sleep. I've read today I've eaten my breakfast. I like breakfast, not heavy breakfast that would slow me down, and then I would still sleep. Then it was basically, even without the vices, I was running away from it, from whatever it opened, do you know what I'm saying? I really had to deal with that. Do you know what I'm saying? I have to deal with like, Why do I want to run? Why do I want to not take in or accept or maybe because... It's usually that I like something about it. That's what has helped me. What do I like about this?

Do you get lost in the story?

Or are you- If I feel the director's confident, I get lost. If I have to feel the director... If... You can see that in the first frame. It's just basically, do they know where they're going? Are they going to take you and do you feel safe?

Yeah, it's interesting. How do you think about the first frame. I feel like when a piece of music comes on in the downbeat, like in the first sound you.

Hear, you.

Really have a feeling of what's about to happen. You need to learn so much before the song even plays, just like the intention of the.

First note. Yeah, I'm obsessed with music. I love music because I think I love music because it's an art form that I'm not a part of. Do you know what I'm saying? I could just - Get to just be a fan. I'm obsessed. There was a time I was just obsessed with this. I knew, the first five seconds, I knew if this producer knows what they're doing or where they're going. But for me, it was like the notes they don't play. It's the notes that they leave out and they go, Oh, they're confident. They know what... It's just that's the same thing. It's like saying with the first frame, it's like they know where they're going. Or if it moves you, does it make you dance? If there's no intellectual word, there's no intellectual justification.

There's nothing to think about. You feel it or you don't.

Feel it or you don't. Does it move you? Yeah. And that's whether that person intended that or they just have that innate intention. You know what I'm saying? You just know what's going on. That's how I feel in a film that allows me to surrender and go on with you. But when I'm like, it's hard because sometimes you're thinking different versions of it, and then sometimes you're just inspired, and it's opening new ways. I was like, Oh, shit, I could do this.

Do you make notes while you watch?

If you get ideas? No, I do. I watch that, I just write things down. I have this thing now and what I'm doing now, I just started, but I just have a list of my films that I love, and I just watch that every morning. That's the first thing I do, is watch the film I love before I read the script that I need to read before I do things that I need to do.

But a different one every day?

Yeah, different one every day, but just like a joyous one, like a social network.

How many are there on your list of ones you love?

30, 40. I've only done stuff like five or six of them now because I have to come back from holiday. Because I remember I read somewhere and they said you should always revisit the things that you love as a teenager because you are waiting there. You know what I mean? Yeah. It was like the stuff that you went to just because you went to it. There was no like, I want to do it to use it to this. It's just like, I love it, and so I'm glad in there. Then you'll meet yourself again. That's what it says, you'll meet.

Yourself again. Do you ever go back and watch something that you loved when you were younger and it doesn't hold up?

Sometimes, yeah. Sometimes, I find out with books where I've got, Wow, I've moved. It just meant a lot to me at that time. Now it was the time that was me receiving it, not necessarily.

What it is. It's like the right teacher showing up when you're ready, it's like at that point in your development that spoke.

Right to where you were. That spoke to me that allowed it, but then I've moved on and evolved from that. Now I revisit it. It wasn't about it. It was about what it triggered in me and what it diverted and moved to me. I think.

That's what the best work does. For me, the best work is the thing that triggers something in me more than me getting involved in it.

Hundred %. That's why I feel like... This is what I'm starting to realize in this process, The Kitchened is like, I think we're so media-obsessed. Media has just taken over all narratives, right? And just that style of narrative because it tells you what to think, and it's the equivalent. What I think art, what media does is go, Here's a fish, and art goes, Here's a fishing rod. Here's how to think.

About.

Whatever the fuck you.

Want to think about. Or the art might even just say, Look at this, without saying, Here's a fish, and then you get to say, Oh, it's a fish. But you get.

To say that. Yes, two plus two.

I don't like being told what to think.

Yeah, I don't like it. I don't enjoy it. I always think it's more interesting what I discover. But I think that way of thinking of not liking what to think is not common. I think people want to know what to think is what I want. You think?

I wonder.

I'm starting to accept that.

I don't believe that. I have to say I don't believe that. I certainly don't want to believe it. But I also hold people highly enough to believe they don't want to be told what to do.

I don't think... Maybe this is me, this is I'm thinking that I think I have authority issues, and I don't think a lot of people don't. They trust.

They.

Have whatever great relationship with whoever person that they had their great relationship with, and so they didn't create this autonomy. Then they go, I'll go with this person. Let's go. They want to be led. I think that's a different person. I think the culture that we have at the moment encourages that side of people and punishes people that aren't like that. Thus, people, you have to really believe in it to hold on to wanting your own thoughts and wanting to think independently. A lot of people, it's just not that deep for them to hold on to that. They're not emotionally resistant to that way of being led.

That's a heartbreaking idea to me.

I think it's okay. Tell me why. I think it's okay because it's like, we're then cool. Like, what are we going to give them?

You.

Know what I mean? It's like if you deny it, then you're consistently trying to get someone to do something that they don't want to do.

I see.

Do you know what I mean? As opposed to giving them what is, serves them.

In the.

Way that they want is that communication thing. It's accepting and believing what you see. Understood. And going, Yeah, have that. That's how this person wants it. Maybe for me, it's a lot of my frustration with my creativity in my life is me being resistant to that.

To.

Me going, You should...

Look at me, I'm saying, I'm should. Should, should, should. There's a cancer of a word. Do you know what I'm saying? It's not even like I'm telling you what to think about how to think. I'm telling you, what I'm saying? You know what I mean? It's like I'm saying? I'm being like them.

Yeah.

As opposed to accepting them and going, All right, you're like that. Do you think that?

Yeah, I think it's cool that people do what they want. I just find it hard to believe that people just want to be told what to do and follow. I just find it hard to believe.

I think it's because you don't.

Yeah, I don't. That's my only.

Point of view. But you're rare. Do you think you're common?

No, but I also think, historically, the things that I've liked seems like other people seem to like. I've made things that I like, a lot of other people like them. I think there must be, as odd as I feel, as different as I feel, there's some commonality there because I'm not making anything for anyone else. I'm only making it for me.

But the difference is that you made it. They didn't make it. The fact that you can.

Make.

Makes you separate to them. It means that you have a different ideal. They are going, Oh, cool, that's what they're into. Cool. I'm just onto, Yeah, that's cool. Oh, yeah, that is good. I like that. It moves me. They are looking to you to tell them like, What's good? Oh, this is what you've heard? Because I don't think ideas are ours. I don't think. I think it's like- I agree. -you're going into the pond and you're fishing and then it's like...

Hundred.

Percent. So it's like you something's arrived to you, you've worked your ass off and trying to actualise it. That's something that does. I kill you, boom. This is how I interpret life, right? So then I go, This is what I've learnt in my career. I'm from a council state, I don't know if that's the projects in London. People don't act where I'm from, so I kept it a secret. And so everything I would do, I would go, I can see something's possible. And I go to, Rick, do you see that? And then usually that person goes, I thought you'd thought. I'm like-.

They wouldn't.

Even see it. They wouldn't see it. And then I go, All right, cool. I'm a fucking asshole. I'm a fucking asshole. I'm a fucking asshole. I'm a fucking asshole. And then the wind is putting it there and that person say, Dan, have you seen this? I was like, Yeah, it's mad, isn't it?

Yeah.

I don't tell them.

But.

Now it's there.

Yeah, you show them.

I show them? Yeah. But that makes me drastically different to them.

Yeah.

And what I used to be is in denial that I'm just different, like just doing a different thing. I'm like, well, sometimes I was in Brooklyn a long time. I sat next opposite this guy. I said, Would you? How did you spend your time? He's like, I make tables. I'm like, What the fuck? What do you mean you make tables? What tables? He said, I make the one that we're on right now. It had like a fucking sewing machine at the bottom of it, and I'm looking at it and I'm like, How did you get there? I'm just going to buy whatever. I'm going to go to Ike and buy a table.

I.

Don't need to understand. Do you know what I mean? It's like there's different departments in life whereI delegate and whether I am aware of what I like or who I trust to receive what I like and what I trust. Some people go, Oh, I really like that, and they're able to wear and identify that, but they're not in a business of control. Do you know.

What I mean? That's how I see it. But we're talking about now thinking for someone else, which is different than making something for someone else that people want to be thought for. That's a scary idea to me.

Yeah, it's awesome. I agree with that. Do you know.

What I'm saying? It's a different idea. Yeah, I get what you're saying. I want you to tell me how to live my life. That's crazy. No one can do that. There's no version of that that's okay. But they do do that. I know.

It was like, do you think no one man can have all that power? I don't think it's like, it's all right, cool. Like control and power. It's control and power.

At the end of the day, and I think- It's either freedom or not freedom. Those are the choices. One is if you're free to decide what you want, how you want to do it, that's freedom. If someone's telling you what you're allowed to do and not allowed to do it, this is how you think about it. If you think about it differently than this, you're wrong, you're in trouble.

But, Rick, bro, I don't think everyone's prepared for the cost and responsibility of freedom.

That's not a human thing.

I don't think we've been prepared for it. A lot of people have been prepared for it. They haven't been given the tools to prepare themselves for all that cost. It's like going in there and going, All right, cool, I'm lifting 300 pounds. You've got to build up to lifting 300 pounds. It's a heavy weight. That's another thing I realized a lot of people want to perks of leadership, but they don't want the cost. I find that in terms of being autonomous within your mind and within your thoughts and within your direction of your life, Go, I want to go here, I want to go there. You have to go through a lot of mad experiences to be truly free in terms of... And freedom is just like, Oh, I can just do that. Do you know what I want to do this? It's where I'm at right now. Me, I'm open to learn and figuring it out, but that's where for me, I just feel like a lot of people are not prepared for that cost and they're cool with it. And I think the environment that has been built within the West doesn't actually encourage it because it's too complicated and there's too much choice.

And so then it's like the overwhelming of... I feel like the internet is just gone like, All right, cool, knowledge is power. Give them all the knowledge. Then you don't know what to get because you've got too much information. You know what I mean? Now you're like, All right, cool, just come on, curate.

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I can actually argue the other side of what I was saying based on what you just said that's interesting. I remember when the streaming revolution first started, and I remember feeling like, Wow, I don't have to go to the store and buy a CD or vinyl that I could hear any piece of music I want at any time. If I just think of something that I heard 25 years ago, I could listen to that right now. I thought, I'm just going to want to DJ all day. I came to realize very.

Quickly.

I don't want to DJ all day, and I want to be programmed too. It's fun when a song comes on that I wasn't expecting.

It's a great experience, and I love that. I get to have discovery versus choice, and that's fun too.

Yeah, and people want to be frilled in that way. I would be like that back in the day in radio shows. I'd be like, All right, cool, this is the DJ I love. I used to follow DJs. And I go, Well, this guy speaks to me. He's going to drop a song that I've never heard. What's this? I just won't find it. It won't arrive to me. That's their job. That's what they do. You know what I'm saying? That's what I'm trying to say. It's a thrill when that relationship is trusting and enriching and opens doors for you. Do you know what I'm saying? But I think the way that it sometimes is used now is used to control and is used to diminish and is.

Used to suppress. What you're describing, though, is a trusted source who you pick.

Yeah.

Imagine if you got assigned a source of what you were allowed to listen to musically and you didn't respect their taste, that wouldn't be good.

No, it wouldn't. But then if there was no other options, wouldn't you just have to find the good in it?

Yeah. Well, that's how it used to be when we didn't when everything wasn't on-demand.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Or you would create what you want. Yeah, exactly. Do you know what I mean?

That's what my path... I think that's something we've both done. Yeah, exactly that. It's like create the thing that isn't there that.

You want. Yeah, brother, I just make films I want to watch and I want my friends to watch. That's it. It's simple as that.

Simple. It's worthy of my time.

Simple. If you think past that, it'll screw the whole.

Thing up. Sometimes someone's got there and done it before me and went, Oh, thank God.

Yeah, I don't have to do it. I was like, Yeah.

See it. It's the best feeling. Yeah, we're like, Cool, let me see what they did. Oh, they were closer to it. Oh, yeah, they did it, but yeah, cool, cool, watch it. Do you mean it's just that? That's it. It's not like, I mean, it's just if not us, then who?

Yeah, it's us.

Do you know what I mean? It's like you just go and then just do it. But then that's a certain person that has a certain, Nah, I want it like this. You know what I mean? Not everyone has that.

Is.

What I'm accepting. I feel like I've been quite baby-like when a baby feels like everything is them. They have this reality where like, Oh, this boy is me and this thing is me. They were like, That's what I've been internally in my creative life and feel like, Well, if I can do it, you can do it. That's been a being dismissive of what I have been given and what radio station I can hear. I'm saying this like I can hear things because the experiences that I've had and my exposure, the fact that my people in my family didn't speak English when I was a kid. That's interesting. Thus I read. Obviously, that tent leans itself for improv because I'm losing body language.

If I ask you what is the kitchen, you tell me what comes up for you.

A representation of an energy and an idea that for me is the essence of what the London that I grew up in and the London that I saw. I do feel that there is a kitchen and a corner of the kitchen in every city that has a like, Fuck you. We do what we want and we don't give a fuck. You want us to leave? No. But the narrative manifestation of that is a self-sufficient community within this film, The Kitchen, that they're the last land standing. It's a community of people that are still connected, that still believe in oneness, they're still believe in community, and they are being asked to leave. And they said no. And they are dealing with the repercussions of that answer. It's how it feels to me.

So is it a realistic drama or is it science fiction? What genre is this story being told as? Is it in a genre? I don't think so. I think it.

Has elements of a lot of things and it has a science fiction conceit. However, at its heart, it's an intimate drama about this man and this boy and how they reconnect. I think when I boiled it down, it's basically when your relationship has changed with your child, how do you redefine a friendship after a level of absence? And that could be applied to a mother and daughter when their daughter has gone to uni or college for a couple of years and they haven't been seeing each other every day, and they come back and that daughter is a different person. And now they have to redefine their relationship and actually find a friendship. And I feel that's the strongest bond to get to with a parent, child, is what Itry to think of, this is me, my faults right now. That's not me. Definitely, this is what it is because I'm just living my life and figuring this out. But that for me is what the intimate drama of it is like knowing that in order to fight what's out there, you have to be together within yourself and with the people that you care and love about.

And if you're at war with yourself, then you are no use to the war out there.

Are you in it as well as writing it?

No, I'm just directing it, writing and producing it. I'm not in it. Cool.

And how's that experience of directing and not acting?

I love it. I used to write... I wrote my first play when I was nine. I used to write plays. I wrote on The Shogun, Skins when I was 18, 19. And then I was 19, wrote two episodes of Skins and I just had nothing to say in 19. I was like, I've got to live. And then I've gone back to here and directing and writing, producing. It's just that thing where it's got me to fall in love with art again because I think there's something about acting. The more successful you get, the more isolated you become. And I think I fell in love with the collaborative nature of it. And what directing and writing and producing does, I think directing does it allows you to collaborate and allows you to talk in and allows you to have funny jokes with grips. You mean you're back in it and the thick of it. It's not weird that I'm there. When I go on set and I'm hanging out, people move like, Why are you here? Do you know what I mean? And so it makes you feel like you don't want to be there because you're not supposed to be there.

And then you find out why you're not.

Supposed to be there. Or you're just not required to be there. I think people usually go where they're required.

To be there. Yeah, and you have to hold your position. You're playing a position. I think with this, I fell in love with having an idea, getting a team of people, having a fucking laugh, yeah? And having a great time, being really happy and then producing something that is a reflection of that time that.

We had. That's great.

That's what I fell in love with, and that's what I felt like I have found with this, is that like, Oh, man, I just make things with people that I fuck with, I care about, challenge me, that I grow with, I challenge them. And then we have a laugh, we do some funny jokes, we spend time. Then there's this thing that we've made that is essentially like a photo album of the time that we shared.

For us. What triggered the initial idea to make it? How did it start?

I was in a barbershop when I grew up, and this guy was talking about these smash and grabs, which is like doing a million pound heists in a minute. He was chatting. I'm sitting there, I'm like, This guy is chatting about his business. He's very trusting of everyone in this barbershop. I kept to listen to him. He's like, Yeah, no, do this, man. I'll listen. I was like, I really want to watch that film. And I was just chilling in the barbershop. I was waiting for my appointment. This is like 10 years ago. I was like, I don't really want to watch that film. That'd be a sick film. I couldn't stop thinking about it. And then a couple of months in buy, that guy, I didn't see him again. I said, What happened to that guy? And they were vague, but they basically went away. I'm presuming he went to prison or whatever. I don't know what happened, and I was like, Huh. And I did more digging around it, and I was like, Wow, they're doing these high million pound, highest in a minute, and they were getting paid 200 pounds. So they were robbing diamonds and they were getting paid 200 pounds.

And I was like, There is conflict in that. That says so much about London. That says so much about where we're at. That says so much about the worth, how valuable they believe their life is. There's so much happening in that. And then I was like, I got to go there. The esthetic intrigued me, and then the dichotomy made me dig.

Where did the man and the child peace come from?

My subconscious.

You don't have children?

No. And I think it was, what's the thing you're scared to say? Because what we understood, it was like about the I and we. I was just obsessed about how people vote against their interests, you know what I mean? Because they vote aspirationally. They go, I want to be there, therefore I'm going to support that and undermine myself and not accept where I'm at my reality. And what was the intimate manifestation of that? You know what I'm saying? Which was basically a man that is so about himself as not being able to be present for a child that he's co-created. And so, yeah. So that's where it was and exploring that. It's about starting. I really believe starting a character in a really negative place so they can really go on a journey and really putting the ugliness upfront. You know what I've found in this process? When you put the ugliness upfront, it then triggers people because some people go, I wish I could do that. You know what I mean? I wish I could be like that. Do you know what I'm saying? It was like, but there is a respect there because that person's being honest and they're telling you who they are.

But that's who they are is not serving them. And the journey and they understand it's not serving them is who they've been taught to be, and it's them getting closer to who they are and what they care about. That's the journey of, Iszy, and this. And then Benjie as the boy accelerates that journey within him. And then he lands, Benjie lands and grows for himself as well.

At what point did the father and son appear in the creation of the story? Because the first story that you told me inspired by the conversation at the barbershop, it's not that. No. So at what point did it.

The father and son- We shot a taster tape. So we shot in the barbershop, we shot a taster tape, and I wanted it to be like, Reservoir Dog's in the barbershop. And that's what we shot. And then it was just style. It was just cool. It didn't mean anything. Do you know what I'm saying? And then it was just these iterations about what's he doing it for? He's doing it for his kid. And then the kid was like a baby. He's not a baby. I was like this. And it was like this noble thing. It was like the reality, it grew as we grew is essentially. I directed a kid, Boy Tovarian, and as we grew, it grew. And as we were more frank, I can not speak for him, I speak for myself, but I was more frank with myself. I was more frank with my blind spots. It then go, Well, let's talk about this. Okay, we have to go there. We have to go. And it kept on going, All right, cool. But I don't think that decision of that boy, that man having a kid was out of nowhere. But I just don't think we was aware that we went there.

Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. And I don't think it's like... It's just things that are coming out that feels right. That feels right. But it's not like... I don't think I was that aware in my creativity to know that. I remember one time when I first wrote on Skins, it was about this girl who has become pregnant, and she's got to decide whether she's to go to drama school or have this baby. Not drama school, but go to music school, have this baby. And then when I watched it back when I was 18, I was sitting there, I was like, Oh, this is about my wrestling with the fact if I'm going to go drama school, if I'm going to just go fuck it, I'm going to go for this career. And it was coming out, and that's why it just felt like I could just do it. But I'm not aware.

Yeah, it's like a dream. You don't know what it means when it's happening. But if you look years later, if you wrote it down and it's like, Oh, yeah.

It's exactly what it is. Yeah, I think that's where the father's son came in because there are questions that you want to explore in the same way that I want to explore this esthetic, this world, those questions. And then we set in the future, not to a distant future because we want it to feel big and we want it to be felt free from the rigidity of reality right now and actually be able to use our imagination. Do you know what I'm saying? And actually go and imagine and then actually can actually tell more of the truth when you use more of your imagination.

Did you have a full script before starting the film, or was it something that evolved as you're making it?

Evolved continuously. It was like, and that was the process because of the... What I realized is it's a reflection of the people that are involved.

Did you start with an outline or anything?

It was just a. Right at the beginning of the process? Yeah. An outline. An outline. An outline. I wrote an outline. And was.

It an outline of to the end? Or was it an outline of this is how the story starts?

The Taster was just an outline of The Taster and specific scenes that had a loose arc and then had a loose beginning and end. But that version of the film would have been like 20 minutes. Then when we did that, we expanded on it, and then I did the whole outline to an end. And then you have that outline, and then you go back and forth with the production company and then you're going back and forth with the producers and building it up. And then you get to land to a more realized outline, and then you'll go to script and then you write that script. The script I wrote is not the film at first, the film that's there. So it kept on evolving and kept on the process, allowed it to come to you.

Would you say that it's better than the script or different than the script?

It's more realized than the script. It's more realized than the first ever draft. It's more succinct. It's more pointed. It's more honest. It's more in service. I'll be real, I think that first draft was trying to show how good I can write, and I thought it was a well-written script, but.

Who cares?

You know what I mean? So I think a lot of ego had to die in me and in all the people in order for us to get to where we got to. I mean, I started the script like 23, 24, so I was trying to learn. I had a negative experience when I was 19 when I wrote a script, and I wanted to prove how good I was. I was in that good stage, good, great stage. And then I think the story suffered because there was too much me there.

Yeah. At any point did you consider it being a series as opposed to a film?

No. I mean, I've written so many versions where I could have a series worth of it. But no, I love film. I love the completeness of film. I love the fact that in the pandemic, I'm just watching something from the '70s randomly on the '50s. I'm just there. I don't think you do that with TV shows, even though I love Twilight Zone. Yeah.

I was just going to bring up Twilight Zone earlier. I really was when you described it being the way you described it rooted in reality but being able to go beyond reality, I was thinking, Oh, like a father and son story taking place in the Twilight Zone.

Yes, exactly that. Exactly that way. That basically,izzy works at a funeral home that turns bodies into trees. You know what I mean? Because they've got this whole technology and turns bodies into trees because they run out of space and they need to help the environment, they've run out of cemetery space. And if you have money, you have the option to choose where your tree is. And if you don't, you don't. You know what I mean? And that's where it's just like exploring what the principles and the conflicts of now through a...

A surreal version of it.

Let's think. Let's imagine. I mean, let's just go there. And to the kitchen is this community that feels like an estate. It feels like a block, but it's a whole town, it's a whole community. It's supposed to feel like London. It's supposed to feel like... I don't know, this isn't like... In my fucking research, yeah, I'm obsessed about London. I think London is so interesting as a city because it was bom. People don't actually forget that Paris wasn't, because it was occupied and London was. And so a lot of it's temporary. And then what I realized when I'm doing a research, a lot of in the blitz, it was fear and then Nazis bomb London and then people panic, panic, panic. And then when they survived, what then happened was like, Oh, shit, I'm invincible. There was an attitude like, What the fuck? And there was less fear the more they bombed. So it was having the opposite. It was making them more resilient. I was like, Oh, that is still in... We are in a lineage of that. That's still here.

That's.

Really interesting. That's still here. That result, the positive outlook of that trauma still exists within the essence of London. I saw that when I was on a bus when I was 11, I went to a big boy school, I went to a boy school. I'm on a bus now. A brother's the older boys is like, We're trying to get off the bus. ' The driver was like, You're not getting off the bus. And he's like... Do you know what I'm saying? I'm just trying to do something. Press the emergency button in the middle of the road and walked out. What the fuck? That, I could see that. Do you know what I mean? There's an ad. Fucking shut the fuck out of here. I'm not reading what you mean. It's like that, and that's what I wanted to show. And it's what I've been around and what I've seen and what I feel in me. I think a lot of my career and what I've done is because, bro, you can hit me and I'll get stronger. My things are I need to stop because I have in the past gone to be hit in order to grow, which is a different thing that I'm learning to leave.

But I just saw that I thought that was interesting, and I just saw that I wanted that essence. But it's about how do you imagine that essence? How do you cinematically articulate that?

Tell me about the London you grew up in.

I was born in Camden town, very punk, very counterculture, very -Was.

This after punk rock or.

During punk rock? 90s. I was born in '89.

And.

So then my first memories is just seeing people with spikes. I think it was just the point where people were still believing in it, but it was at the tail end of true punk. But it still had that like, there was just no place in fucking England that is like Camden. And it still had that, it's just like... And massive drug culture in Camden. And you're exposed to a lot. I remember one time this guy came on the bus and he had spikes on his boots, spikes on his trousers, spikes on his things, and he had purple, spiky hair. I'm looking, I'm like, What the fuck is happening? I'm like sick. I'm looking and my mom doesn't... If it's not worried, no one else is bat an eyelid. And then it made me go, Oh, didn't know why I won't look at him weird. Did then. It taught me that people are supposed to be different. You know what I mean? That's the punk. Actually living with that punk energy is like, Okay, you're a different than cool. It's accepting. That person does not affect my life. Why would I care?

It's not like, even though it's like, Everyone care, we're good. I'm like, Okay, cool. And I've behaved nuts. The one I grew up with, but also I grew up in a block and in the state, and it's just that danger, that excitement. Everyone's funny. Everyone is up to a scheme. There's all these probably 95 doors and everyone, there's something happening. There's arguments. There's this, there's that. There's people losing their kids to the system. People are like, winning the lottery because they just won 500 pound or whatever. There's so much life. And also for me, it was like you weren't defined by what you didn't have. And I feel like the minute I moved, I got better grades and I went to a better school because I got better grades. I got good grades. And then what happens is I don't think the school was better. I think the school was seen as better. Or they allowed kids with good grades in and they didn't allow kids with not good grades in. I then became aware that I was working class and that idea and that my identity was in conjunction to another class's identity and the whole class.

I was like, well, but when I was in- How old.

Were you when that happened?

16, 17. But before that- That's a long time. Yeah, that's what I'm saying now. Before that, it was just like everyone was in it. No matter.

What raised for- Could you say it was happy childhood?

I would say yes and no. I would say that it was happy, it was joyous, it was fun, and it was up to scheme and get it like... You get you early like, All right, cool. How did you play with this trolley? You know what I mean? You learn how to just play with things around you. All right, cool. Throwing water bombs at people and run on the streets. You know what I mean? It's real life. Yeah. The blocks are filled with people that were out in hostels, majority were single mothers, and they've got a property, do you know what I mean? And you're getting yourself up and build yourself up. This is the reality of my block, and then you leave. I was really resentful of gentrification. And then in this process, I realized that the junction nature of London is London. The people coming in and out, it's like, Oh, it's the Irish people.

-that's what makes.

London London. -it's the Jamaicans. Yeah, it's the Somali's, it's the Kosovans. There's a new wave. Come out, you come in, leave. That whole thing about things are always supposed to stay the same, holding on to that is hurting yourself. It's just it's supposed to move. It's actually... I've worked hard to stay and then I realized everyone's moved. Yeah. So then what am I fighting to stay for this. The place isn't the thing, it's the people.

Yeah.

That's why it was exploring that nature when people say, No, I'm staying, but then what's the reality of people going, You should stay, but it's like, Say if your kid doesn't feel safe, why the fuck are you staying? Of course. People don't actually realize they're like, This is real life. I wanted to show the.

Side of the world. Also, you didn't choose it originally. You just happen.

To be there. It's comfort, it's familiarity. And it's whether if you had... What's that I love now, and I put that in all the decisions I make in my life is like, if I started this now, would we decide to do it this way? If not, I'm afraid of him. I didn't choose to grow up where I grew up, and then you got to a point where like, Would I choose to stay in this block? Would I choose here? Probably not, but it's just what I know.

Tell me about your family.

I grew up with my mom, my older sister.

How much older?

Eight years. It's a long time. Yeah. And yeah, from Uganda, they were both born there. I was the only one that was born in England.

Earlier you said people in your family didn't speak English.

Obviously my mom, early years, she came to England to give birth to me. Wow. She learned English in my life was a reflection of that.

Do you speak Uganda.

As well? No, I don't speak Uganda, no. She spoke to me in English. That was our thing. There's a lot of things that I don't have access to, but I do have access to in the sense that I can understand certain things, but I read body language and understand that that is a true language, and I take that in and I'll read tone. I will listen to tone to really understand. There's like if I go to Uganda, I have an auntie that doesn't speak English. I don't speak Luganda, and we have a great time. Do you know what I mean? It's not like that, but yeah, so my mom started from nothing and grew everything, yeah.

Never met your dad?

I did as a kid, and then he left my life, and then he passed away when I was real young. And then I don't really have a relationship with him now.

An extended family or just your mom moved?

I had and I had cousins.

In London?

In London. I had family in London. And basically it was cool, but then I think family stuff happened, and then I didn't really beef in the family, and then we didn't really work cool anymore. So then it was just that the nuclear element of our family by post 9/10.

But.

I've got cousins in London. I've got a family in London.

Was there music played in your house?

Yeah, lots like Boney M, Abba, Mom loves Abba. Mom loves Elton John, Mom loves Queen, Michael Jackson. There's this Uganda artist called Philip, we're not on a bitch. He's got this song called Born in Africa and a song called Entebe. And then whenever I listen to it, it just triggers me and just such sweet music. And what's interesting about that time is no matter how much money you had, you had a great sound system. Everyone had a great sound system. And yeah, music was just everything. It was just like it was always played, always played in my house, a lot of those guys. I love Abba. Abba is cold. Yeah.

Trying to picture it. How color the buildings?

So including ground, because you guys include four. We would say three, but it's four. Only the top floor had the upstairs. It wasn't like a high rise, but it was big. And if you go on top floor, you can see down and you can see a great view of London and see all the buildings if you're at the top floor. That's where I wrote... When I wrote the script, wrote to this woman, Cynthia, we passed RIP, she used to travel to Africa for half the year and then allowed me to house it. And I would write there and she was at the top flat and I could see the whole of London whilst I was writing. So it was a bit like that. You could see the view not too high, but you can see it.

Were the buildings that you were in the highest buildings in the area or as high as the highest.

Buildings in the area? It's as high as the highest buildings.

There were no, like skyscrapers around you?

No, it was just like me-medium-sized buildings around. It wasn't really a skyscraper environment. It was the borderline of Camden and Iselin. I would say like a no man's land. It doesn't have the name, the area. I think people call that or St. Pankriss. You can say it's Kentish town, you can say it's Camden, you could say it's like near Market Road, it's near Cali Road. It was just this area, but it was not a lot of high rises, and there was this amazing, Astro turfed pitch at Market Road that everyone would play games in. And so the best footballers around the area would go there, and all these teams would go there. We'd go there to play games, and it was a block across the road. It was a petrol station there, and it was like it was a park down the road, yeah. No, there weren't no high rises there like that, no.

Have you ever done any therapy?

Yeah.

Is it helpful?

Yeah, man. A lot's happened in my head. I've experienced a lot, seen a lot. So it's good to let out to work on not judging myself and really strengthen that muscle in me and acceptance and then say to you're someone to partner up to accept things and then go, right, cool, let's accept that. And seeing it is that something that I did as opposed to who I am. And knowing that I did that, that's not me. Do you know what I mean? I think it gave the point of view, I felt with a point of view, and it allowed me to grow and see things how they are and accept and believe. We see believers as an ugly word. If someone's way inclined go, I believe you. That is that. And then you have to call and lead. The conflict comes from not believing, resisting in that acceptance. I think it's helped me with that. Have you done therapy?

I have. How have you done it? I've done all different kinds. It's interesting. I remember the first time I did therapy, I didn't know how I felt about anything, and I didn't know how to talk about it at all. It was really difficult at first.

Did you see that you're as therapeutic or cathartic? How did you see it at the time and how do you see it now in that area? -art? -yeah, your creation, your creating.

I think it's always therapeutic. It always feels good, but it feels good because there's nothing there, and then there's something there, and it's something you like that's cool. It's a great feeling. When it goes from not good to good, it's a great feeling. The moment when it shifts from this kind-morphous, mediocre thing into something you really care about.

That's.

A great feeling. It's an addictive feeling.

Yeah.

How is performing comedy different than performing drama, or is it different?

I'm really happy that I started out doing comedy because I think it's made me a stronger dramatic actor because you know the importance of rhythm. Rhythm is what I feel makes something funny and pockets and placement. And for me, I feel drama is less rigid. I see laughing is dancing. There's a tune that you can say that people won't even understand me. I've done it before, when people don't understand what I'm doing. That can trigger a laugh in someone.

Just through the rhythm of the way.

You're saying it. Through the rhythm, because that's.

What I found. It's like you're signaling this is funny. It doesn't even matter what the words are.

That and then allows you to place what's being said in a different place within someone. I think with drama, it's having a bit less control. I've never really thought about this. I probably will have a much different answer when I leave and come back, but... I do think that I do do rhythmic things in drama because there is certain pockets that you think, but I'm just less beholden to the result. Yeah.

It's also a different... The feedback mechanism in comedy is immediate. People laugh or they don't. Whereas in drama, can you always know when it's landing?

You can feel if people are listening, if people are leaning in. It was that Luper Van, they said to Chris Rocky was like, Anyone can make an audience scream, but can you help make them quiet? I feel like in drama there's a thing that like... There's a (deep breath) that you're searching for. There's like an emptiness in the space that you are searching for when you are saying things. And it comes with like a fearlessness ofgetting straight to what you mean, and maybe that creates a vibe or something like that. There's a sound that I am searching for that just happens, and it's not necessary to do with what people say, because when I'm on set, everyone's at work that's watching what you do. They're focused on something else. So it's a sound that's away from that. There's an emptiness, there's a silence that you're looking for that allows them know that you're in an interesting place that you can keep going in.

It sounds great. That sounds like a great place.

To be. No, it's very... To say when I did the crying scene and get out, there was some place that we went to, me and Catherine, that meant that it was like, we're in here and people are too scared to move, or this is the equivalent of like someone's on the floor, they've dislocated their shoulder. Fuck. You want to help but anything you do, hesitation that-like, cautiousness is what's created, I think, is the only way I could describe it right now in this current room.

It's a very palpable, alive space you're describing. There's a void in it is what it sounds like. There's space in it.

It sounds great. It's like people move out the way.

And.

Let the person just give them space. It's interesting because it will make the audience lean in, but anyone around there will lean out.

Yeah.

Do you know what I'm saying? And then they just create it more space for you, then it allows it to grow out more. I think that's the void. It's like a void that is collectively people just allowing it to grow. I can sometimes feel when you're in those spaces, in them moments.

It sounds mystical.

Yeah, it's mysterious. It can't be articulated. It's to be felt. It's like you can't describe how you dance. You don't describe why you dance. There's things that are just out of the remit of vocabulary. I think we're so rigid in the sense that if you can't describe it, then it doesn't exist. It's crazy. Essentially crazy. Do you know what I mean? It's like actually, there's just stuff that you're not supposed to. And I think my family is just being more less Western and thinking. That's what I grew up in, is that that's what it is. You actually accept that you know it's that. And you know that's real. You don't question it. You don't even interrogate it. It's just there. It is not there to be. I think you accept that. And that's what it was when I was doing improv, when I wanted... When I was doing dramatic, I wanted people to be scared to talk. People watching this scared to cough. They're scared to disrupt that moment. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. There's a nervousness that dramatic, and I think comedy allows is a release.

Yeah, almost opposites from what you're saying because the comedy is the energy out and the drama is more of an energy in.

Yeah, it's like contained. -yeah. -it's... Yeah.

I take it all there. It's really exciting.

Yeah, and then that creates a woo. I realized that I create, sometimes I'll create that... I'll take that space before the take to make it easier to come through, especially if I'm pressurized situations where I have to hit it on this one take. I'll create that move before, like say, they were rolling and then they say action and I just won't do anything. If I'm leading the act first thing, I won't do anything until I feel it. Then I'll go, as opposed to using the scene to create it.

I.

Think that's what my experience has taught me, is that I go and I say we go, and I go when it hits and it feels and then you're just in the space. Because when everyone's silent and waiting, that.

Uncomfortability- It creates it itself.

-creates it itself. And so then you're able to come to us just way easier. That's when I'm like, I've got one take left and you've got to do it. You have to control the space.

It's also patient, sounds like such a key piece of the process of being comfortable waiting.

It's audacity. That's another thing about it. It's audacity as being silently, audacious.

Yeah, it shows confidence.

Yeah, it's got there.

Do you think of yourself as a spiritual person?

Yeah, I do. My mom brought me up in the church. I would read a Bible every night. I'd read Psalm and Proverbs. I think ingesting that every night meant I knew things. I remember I would say certain things at school and I'm like, Where the fuck did that come from? No one spoke to me about that. I think I ingest and believe something and then... But I don't know what it is. I thought you know what the word spiritual means. I can't, I like... People say it, yeah. But I think I'm in a place where like, What does that even mean? I think I know what religious means. I don't believe I'm a religious because I don't go to church every Sunday. But spirit, what does it mean to you?

I feel like you feel connected to something larger than yourself.

Yeah, I would say that. I would say that then if that's what's being said, I would say that if I thought about my life and my career, I wouldn't get here. I feel like I'm being used and things are coming through me.

That is straight-up spirituality.

Right there.

That's spiritual.

I think yeah, 100 %. I think a lot of the things that I've done have come to me and come through me. I've not been premeditated. I think I come from a lot of faith. What they say, delusion is faith without God. I feel that, yeah, I do think there's more than what people say makes sense doesn't even make sense to me. That's what it is. It's like what logically makes sense doesn't really make sense in the stuff that I've seen and the stuff that's happened in my life and the stuff that's happened in other people's lives. I do think that is like, do you have a firm believer like you are anyone else in your life as a reflection of you in some way, shape or form whether you want to see it or not? Because why does it stick? And so yeah, in that regard, yeah, I do believe. What does spiritually value mean to you?

A sense of connection, a sense that there's more that we're not doing this ourselves. There's a bigger thing going on where participants or vehicles for something larger.

I.

Think most creative people can't help but feel it. It's like it comes... It's in the territory of what we do, that we experience these things that rationally don't always make sense. Yet we watched these things unfold in the same way that you told a story about when you were pointing and your friends couldn't see the thing that you were seeing, and then you showed it to them by doing it. It's that same idea, the fact that you can recognize something that other people can't see. I think that's a form of a spiritual practice.

Yeah. I know I've been gifting a level of sight in things. Yeah.

Is it the nature of the story or is it the embodiment that gets into you beyond work?

I don't think it's an embodying. It's the intention. So it's the nature of the story and it's the beyond work is like what I interpret my interpretation of that would be like, we're out beyond in your life. If we're looking at the story like Get Out, right? I see when Get Out happened, what happened was I was an avatar of a lot of people's feelings that they never knew that they had. And so I would walk on the street and black women would come and hug me and leave. Just leave, not even say nothing. Hug me, someone would cry. I'm like, What the fuck is happening? And I think the strength of that narrative that Jordan built and the fact that I embodies it meant that people were receiving me as that parable, as that idea, as that concept, and then you are basically in the center of an idea, that nature that's been built around you, and because you embodies the nature that was around you, therefore everything is now projected upon you. You know what I mean? And that energy. And being in different positions because I do think story and narratives is like formation in sports.

Being in different positions in the narrative, so you feel like a villain, you're in a different type of things. If you're like a supporting character, you're in a different position. People then receive you different as a product of that embodiment, essentially. And the nature of the narrative and the arc that you were expressing. Do you know what I'm saying? And it's just something that moved to you. That litters in your life is one thing I've interpreted.

How would you say success is different than you would have imagined it?

People see you less.

People see you less?

People see you less, yeah. There's a difference between success and recognition.

Yeah.

They're two different concepts. That's one thing I realized. Success is like you're part of a team. It's that you're up this and that you're up. People want to be reliant on success. If you are recognized, then a lot is projected upon you. A lot of people's insecurities and fears, and then you are then now like someone to be projected upon as opposed to a person.

Yeah.

But what it does, it gives me more insight into them. And why we say you see how people saw you because it's something shifted, you know what I mean? And you see what they care about you, but you know that you're not being seen in that sense. One time I went to an Oscar, yeah, and then I went to party after, yeah, for a party for Judas and stuff, whatever, okay? And it was the only time I've walked around with the Oscar. That shit is powerful. That is a powerful object. People are moved by it. I was like, I'm holding something crazy. It's not even... It's hard to even describe. I was just like, I'm holding something that people just like, What the fuck? So much is like, and you disappear.

Yeah.

But you are now, you know what I mean? Yeah. I think I lived that because I've won it and some people have their attitudes of it. But then I think that was the only time I really saw it clearly because I had it in my hand. Yes. And it was like, whoa. And so success for me has made me have to confront things in myself and to stay safe, to be clear and to keep creating. I have to let go of things to grow and still do what Itry to do because it's just an exasperator. It just turns the volume up to eleven in every department. And It had to learn the skill in facing things and being direct in my communications. I can't be as internal as I've been. That is no longer beneficial, do you know what I'm saying? So success is a wild, and I don't even think I've really gone into it and really engaged with the spoils of it because it happened later in my 20s, like 27, 28, and then that level, but it's a lot to... I've seen a lot.

Yeah, and it's strange. It's odd. Yeah.

It's odd, man. Yeah.

Like his self. It doesn't feel natural.

No, not at all. I know I wanted to be successful because I was like, What's the point of doing something like that? I've always like that since the very beginning, but I didn't really think of all the sides of it. But I think that's what makes you go there, because if you really thought about all the sides of it, you probably wouldn't go there. Do you know what I'm saying? And it just becomes a thing. It's not necessarily anything better. It's just now this thing that you have to deal with all the sides of. But it means that there's a certain group of people that means that you're not as human as you once was. Because you now have that success, therefore your problems aren't really real problems. They're not going to receive it like that because of you know what I mean?

And you have a different set of problems. Like when you're making something when you're young, stakes are low. Now when you make something, a lot of people can see it, and now it's much more vulnerable position to be in because there's an expectation that wasn't there before.

I've had to really strengthen my fearless muscle.

The.

More successful I've got. I've had to really be like... Actually, it's way more exposing, way more vulnerable, way more. I've had to learn how to manage that.

How did you meet Jordan?

The Zoom or Skype. It was Skype back in the day. He'd watched Black Mirror. It's a Black Mirror episode I did. It's nearly 12 years ago I did that. And he saw that and he was like, I got this script. I'm sending it to you.

So he already had the script?

No, he had the script. He sent me the script, and then I said... And what was at that time? I was reading the script a day. I was just reading my favorite films because I was right in the kitchen. I was learning how to write, I'm self-taught like that. So I was just reading the script today, and what I realized in that process, I learnt what I liked, and that was invaluable. So when this script came in, I wasn't acting, I stopped acting for a year and a half. And then this script came in, I was like, That? What the fuck is that? A lot of people in my team didn't understand what it was. They were like, whatever. And I went through with that, 'Brother, you know, you understand. You've done the work. I know you know. He's like, Yeah. And he knew you knew you knew you knew you knew you knew you knew you knew you. And I was like, This is this is the thing. He's like, Yep. And then that was the first time I spoke to him. And then Secario came out. It's the week of Secario. I was in L.

A, came out, and then I was just in L. A, and I was like, It's wise for me to be here to see what comes. And then the Get Out audition was around that time, and I auditioned for it the first time I met him in person. And he was just really supportive of me and my ideas... Not my ideas, not my ideas like me. He believed in what I could do. Then I did the crying scene in the audition and another other scene, I think that scene by the lake. I think he was like, Yeah, I've got a role in the room. But then I was like, I've had that before. I was like, I'm not going to believe it because it's just too heartbreaking to actually believe in and then it doesn't work out. I'm like, Cool. Then he met up with me again and he spoke to me about his philosophy and his ideas and how he saw cinema and film and all of that. And then I was like, I know it was my first lead role in a film. I was asking questions about, Would you want this as Daniel?

But yeah, that's how we first met.

What was it that spoke to you when you read the script?

I felt that shit, man. I felt like it. I felt like it, man. I was so angry, bro. I was so angry in that area stage in my life. And I think I stopped acting for a year and a half. And I remember I knew I said anything I do next, I'm going to go crazy. I've got so much shit in me. And then I was so full. And then it came and I was like, Wow, this is... What I realized is not a lot of things allow you to give everything. And I was like, Well, this is the space for me to give everything. And it was so angry, and so concise, and so articulate about his anger. And it was so... It was anger that it's like, I think 85 % of the film is repressed anger, which I think is so honest and the straight-list nature of just having to like, you know, be polite to accommodate for others feelings when people are not accommodating for yours. And how that pressure cooker goes over the top, but usually it's the real anger that you let happen. I felt that in the script.

Allowing yourself to be betrayed and believing in things that hurt you. I felt that, and I felt the like, This shit is entertaining with it. Because for me, if it's not entertaining, what's the point? I don't think I'm here for that. To just make things as a piece of visceral art. I enjoy things like that, but I don't think I'm here to make things like that. I think there's loads of people that can do that. For me, it has to be digestible to people that don't understand cinema in a deep way because I'm not in community. I'm not communicating with them. That's my friends. I used to back and they watch French films with my friends and ask them what they think, and I would understand what they like and what they don't like. That's how the script made me feel.

How is acting in a movie different than acting in front of an audience?

Acting the film is quieter. You're seducing the camera. You're like, Well, I choose to come in, come to me. You can do that on stage, and there's elements you do that on stage, but the fundamental thing is if you're a certain level of fit, you have to be heard by the someone at the back. So there's a level of projection that means you're going to. But also the contract is different. People are leaving their house, paying a ticket, and they understand to see you in person, and they are believing that you're not you. And not all the time that the set's always there, it's like there's a level of imagination that a theater audience needs that they come with you on. While in film there's a level of everything is real. This is the world and this is happening and everything's happening. And then when it's not there, you're like, Why is that not there? But if someone is like 24 and they're playing a baby, you're not going to go, Why is it 24 you're playing a baby? You're just accepting that. That's the form and that's the style. There's just a different contract.

I think on stage you're the editor, and so you're carrying the arc and you're managing the arc.

That's a big point. I think that's a big point.

Yeah, with the decisions that you've made with the director in the rehearsal period. Whilst in film, I feel like what I do, I see acting is helping someone say something. I'm giving you all these different ingredients and spices and styles into the stew. When you go and make your stew, you've got one like that. I like that one. And then, boom, you can pick what you want. That's your choice. Do you know what I mean? I'm not part of that process.

Do you typically ask directors a lot of questions or no?

When I don't understand something, if I feel something doesn't make any sense. I think a lot of times a lot of the scenes have been written for the scene, and I'm a firm believer. What is this scene interrupting? This person is going to do something, so this scene happens and it's got to interrupt. He's not coming into the scene to do the scene. You know what I mean? When I feel like that, I feel like I will ask 10 million questions because fundamentally, I'm like, This doesn't really make sense. It doesn't make sense, yeah. But if I believe in it, I'm not going to ask questions. I just believe, I trust it's written well, cool, let's go.

How important is it for you to believe the characters you're playing?

Believe in what they say and believe in what they believe. It's important for me to believe that they believe it. Yeah. If I don't feel they believe it, then I can't believe it.

If they believe it, you believe it because that's.

Your-yeah, it's true to them, and then you can find why it's true. You know what I'm saying? It's like they believe even if it doesn't serve them. It's made me move away from good and bad and go towards what serves you, what doesn't. People believe in things that don't serve them, creating negative realities for them. But they believe- All the time. Yeah, exactly. All the time. But they believe in it. And then there's a conviction to it, and I've got to know if they believe in it.

Yeah, it's like a self-limiting belief. Yeah. How often does your understanding of a character change over time? From the time you start a movie to the time you finish a movie, are you 100 % that person before the first day of shooting? Or does it evolve over.

The course? It does evolve. You go into different scenes and you're there. I remember there's one time I played someone and you're walking in the scene and you're talking and you're like, Oh, this guy fucks a lot of girls. Just because the way he's... The way I engaged with this woman and this, I was like, Oh, if you're like this and you're going to indulge. Do you know what I'm saying? That wasn't something I thought about before, but it was in the scene. It was like, Oh, and then it changed how then I engaged with everything else after that. It's really interesting. I mean, you could just find things and go, Oh, shit. This is real. But you need the experience to reveal the character. The character is not just something you've made by yourself. It's the same way you find out or I find out by myself with someone. Sometimes you need someone there to reflect and go, Oh, shit. Oh, yeah, that, I do think that. I don't know what I felt like that about dramatic acting. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's this before Sunset, this film, Ethan Hawke, is in it? But the woman in the film is basically saying, they were asking like, What's God?

And then basically she was like, Between us, it is what exists between connection, essentially. I think that when I'm acting, it's like if you're true and present, you find think more things. That's why I don't come in there with too much preconceived notions and thoughts because it's going to reveal more to you if you have less in the door.

It also makes sense that the character probably knows less about themselves. People don't study themselves. They just do what they do.

Yeah. And also I have an awareness on him. He doesn't have the awareness. It would be incorrect for me to play that awareness that I've discovered. I'm just going to action it, and I'm going to use it in a slight look. And someone that has been exposed to a man like that goes, Uh-oh, I know what that is. Do you know what I'm saying? I saw something like Widows, right? Widows, I played a St. J's a murder on. And it's not that he's scary. I just didn't play scary. I played with a lot of love. But it's the fact that he's bored, that's what makes it scary. Because then how many murders has he done? The fact that he's creative, he's made new ways. How did you get there? It's the office nature of it makes it go, What the fuck? And then the mind goes, But he's not aware that he's... He thinks that's really normal, and that's what makes it even scary. He thinks it's very normal. What else would I do? Do you know what I mean? That mentality is what is like, Whoa, you are down a street that not a lot of people touch.

Yeah. You know what I mean? And that not necessarily go... What they say is a hitchcoth thing. It's not the terror is not in the bang, it's in the anticipation of it.

Yeah. It's the bomb that's hidden under the table that the audience knows about and the characters don't. Yeah.

You know what I mean? And it's just about knowing that something could happen, but not knowing what can, and it's about that just know. What I played in the Widows, he wasn't aware that he doesn't think he doesn't think it's bad. That's what's scary.

He.

Thinks he's doing the right thing. And it's like, how do you get to that belief and go, whatever, cool, and then just carry on reading a book after? That is the fact that it doesn't affect you means that what have you seen as a kid?

That was a fictitious character, yes? Do you look for real-world references? Not even necessarily like that. Do you see someone who has a certain mannerism and think, Oh, I could use that mannerism in this character?

Yeah, I think in Widows, I'm not saying what he's done, a lot of it was in one scene, it was Beanie Segel. I saw this video of Beanie Segel when I was younger, I was 16, and it popped in mind of him. Peedie Crack was rapping. And then Beanie Segel was just listening to him, but how close he was listening to him, the man goes, That's odd. He didn't understand personal space in that moment. And then we go, What's that? I think I'll see certain things and go, What's that? Majority of the time, that's like a rare occasion, majority of the time it's people that I've seen and people I've been exposed to. And it's an energy that just in real life that I go, I've seen that energy and I know that energy. Then you... I want real life in the film. So people that I've actually met or people that I've been around and people that I've seen and people that I've spoken to because I think the truth is way weirder.

Yeah, and it's the only way you can really get those. Like you say, people are so strange that if you make it up, it won't be as strange as what they're really like.

No, you'd be too limiting.

You.

Would go, How do you like this? It's more of an attitude. I remember one time I was in research for kitchen, and then there was this guy, he's been in the game, he's done a lot. And then I asked him one time, I was like, Yeah, sometimes when I see certain guys and you just know their own stuff, you know they've done something crazy, you know something crazy, you're like, But I said, What is that? And how he articulated it was like, It's when they've done something they can never forgive themselves for. It's like if they robbed their grand. I mean, it's not like they've done something that they had to do, they just can't face themselves. So they're just like, Well, fuck it. Betz are off. They've gone over the threshold. Yeah. You know what I mean? Where this could be as minor or as big, they violated something that they didn't want to violate. They've under... It's that, what that builds and what that grows into someone, what that explores, what that matures. I find that interesting. My certain decisions and what you've realized about your character. I want that essence in all characters I play and make.

You said you were doing research. What does research look like for you?

Conversations, listening to conversations, reading, like dissertation, reading around. Actually, I go places and I would sit in a place and I would research in the place. So I would rent a spot and I'd be in the environment and I would read and I'm in it and I could just go out in the day, come back in four or five or six, have my food, and then just in it. It's always about being in the space.

And you just pick up subtle cues of what it's like.

You get nuances and little... It's the details that make people believe for me. It's just like you see the people that you want to articulate the things that people don't even know about themselves, that they can't, they're not able to... They don't even know they have it. That's what you're looking for, and that's what's real. And having something and not knowing you have something makes the character fuller. You know what I mean? And that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for those little nuanced stories, how they behave around certain people or the light. Where do they play? What do they love? Who do they love? No matter what they've done and what the character, who do they love? And where's the lovingness in this? In whatever they do? Where's the love in this? I think once I find that, then it becomes intimate. It's like certain scenes you're like, Oh, what? This becomes boyaristic.

I was... I'm just trying to say, are we just all hungry for intimacy? That's why it feels so good? Would you see a great intimate performance? I think.

Intimacy is very satisfying and an evolution intimacy as well. I think it's very satisfying. From what I know right now, I'm open, but I think, yeah, I would agree with that. I think that is... Honesty is intimate. I'm going to say it's like, truth is what happened. Honesty is how you feel about what happened. That's what I've learnt how to be more honest.

Yeah.

Do you know what I'm saying?

That's just how I feel like. Honesty doesn't have right or wrong associated with it because it's how you feel. All right, it is, is.

How you feel. Yeah, but you're saying both sides of it.

Yeah.

You're talking about the bit when you were the victor and the bit that you weren't the victor. Yeah. You're being honest. Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? You're being foot. You're going, Oh, man, this person is vulnerable. And it allows intimacy to grow. I feel like sometimes when I find out an audience when audiences laugh, it's not funny. These people recognize the honesty.

It's a.

Recognition of like, Oh, I feel like that.

Too, but I never say it. Can you be more honest or vulnerable in a performance than you can in real life? Is that possible?

Yeah.

Yeah?

Of course. Yes. I'd ask.

What-that's fascinating. Yeah.

Like I said, the contract is pretense, so you can expose more of yourself because there's almost no repercussions. But what happens is that then there has to be a point where you actually do that for yourself, though, and not just do that for money or do that for career trajectory or do that for validation. You're doing it just because you want to do it and because it's the true thing to do.

And it's about- Now you know how to do it. Now you're a professional at doing that.

Do.

You know what I'm saying? It's like that's an incredible skill set to be good at. The fact that it's not required for you to have done it in your life to be able to do it, it's a great gift to yourself to be able to now do it based on the skill set you've built outwardly. Yeah, but.

I think I didn't feel safe to.

You.

Beforehand probably in myself. I haven't acted since 2021 because I realized that I'm giving too much to these characters. And actually it's actually now going to do the opposite effect. I'm going to be more withdrawn if I don't actually just be real as myself and just do it for myself and be real. I think I wanted to be more honest. And just for me, in myself, not for money, not for a career, not for anything else. It's just like, Yo, in private, in the dark. Am I real? Are you real? In the dark? Do you know what I mean? Because then that always will come out, and it becomes easier as opposed to engineering it and having this is the safe space. Because what happens is when you become more successful, you do it less.

Yeah.

I used to do acting every week. Three times a week. I do it once every few years now.

Wow, that's interesting.

I mean, it's not like... So you don't.

Have the- And do you miss it when you're not doing it?

I miss the old version of it because you're just doing it to play. You're just doing it to explore. You're just wandering. There's no result to it. There's no point to it.

There's just not anything. Is there any version of it that you could do now that has no stakes, just for fun, that you could do just to get to do it?

I could do. I could create a space. But I do feel like the space that was created then was just... It was reflective of the time as well. I feel like it was a time when I never was honest and never was, and it was just a complete like, I'm able to exercise all these emotions in this space, you know what I mean? I was like a teenager, and I feel like I've grown as an artist that I think it would be quite indulgent that I wouldn't enjoy it. I think now I've got to a different place, a more transcendent places when I'm doing it for something bigger than me, doing it to serve something. I'd do to serve a piece to serve an idea to serve. And I think that getting to that place is just more enriching and rewarding genuinely. I think it's more important to you than just exploring and playing and doing it. It's just a different... You just moved. Understood. You know what I mean, it's like going back to your old school. It's just small now. I mean, it's just that there's a few... If I created that environment, I would have to create the time because the time was as important as me and the space.

Yeah.