Coming up, has Draymond killed the Clipper? Football. A great entourage story and a lot more next. We're also brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network. Hope you checked out the Rewatchables this week. We did the Pelican brief, and we have Christmas vacation coming up on Monday, so stay tuned for that. I have an action-packed podcast, so I just want to get to it because we have a lot of stuff that we did in this one. Top of the podcast came on from Warriors Clippers. It was a pretty memorable game just from where two teams are going and everything that happened this week with Draymond. So I want to talk about that at the top. And then Nora Prince-Yadek comes on. She's our Taylor Swift expert at The Ringer. Is Taylor Swift ruining in the Chiefs? I'm kidding. She's not. Really, she's not. But we talked about Taylor Swift, talked about Bill Belichick. Nora used to cover The Patriots once upon a time, and whether he's actually at his coach. And then she helped me do Million dollar picks, or should I say, the Red Hot Million dollar picks. And last but not least, my friend Corey Jefferson came on.

He has a new movie coming out. It's actually out in some selected cities right now, but it's called American Fiction. It's fantastic. And it's probably getting nominated for an Oscar, but we've known him for a while. He's been in my life just through extended acquaintances and friends. So it's been interesting to watch him rise to where he got to with this movie. But that's not what we brought him on, even though we talked about the movie and his career and all that stuff for a while. He has this pitch for The Entourage reboot that is one of the funniest things I've ever heard. So I made him do it. And that's the tail end of the podcast. So make sure you listen to the end for that. Great podcast. Is coming up first, our friends from ProJet.

All.

Right, I'm typing the top part of the podcast here. It is 10:23 Pacific Time. Just came home from Warriors Clipper's. I set the land speed record trying to get back so I could take the top of the pod. I apologize to everybody at Olympic Boulevard. Watch the Warriors lose again to a Clipper's team that is starting to make me nervous. I might have to eat some crow considering after The Hard and Trade, I did a long segment and then we did a YouTube video and the title of it was The Quippers Are Dumb. They did not look dumb tonight. They looked really good and James Harden looked really good. Hold that thought. I want to talk about The Warriors. Are The Warriors dead? That's what I was thinking sitting in my seat. I was sitting next to Mike Tolin, who I've been sharing Quippers tickets with since God knows when. And we've seen a lot of Steph Curry games. 2012-13, that was the first Curry season when it felt like something maybe a little bit magical might be in the works. And he had a nice little rivalry with Chris Paul, who, coincidentally, he was playing with the shadow of Chris Paul, the Night of the Warriors.

But we watched him come in year after year after year and probably around the 14th, 15th season, the Warriors jerseys started populating the arena. I was like, This is interesting. Is something happening with this team? Is this starting to feel a little like MJ Bulls-ish? Like all these Warriors jerseys. And then it just kept growing. Then they had the 73-win season. And by the mid-2010s, every time the Warriors came in, it was like a home game for them. And it was all centered around Curry and him being a generational talent, but also the teamwork of Clay and Draymond and just the way the guys played together. Durant shows up. They go to a whole other level. They're the best team in the 21st century. I still believe that. And it starts to fade a little bit. Then it comes back two years ago. They have a resurgence and they end up winning the title against my favorite team, the Bust and Celtics. And it seems like this is just going to keep going and going and going. And then all of a sudden, it stopped. And it stopped pretty abruptly in the Lakers series last year.

I remember talking on this podcast during those games because I was going to them just like, Man, this Warriors team, the spirit of this team is broken. They have real issues. You could see it on the bench. They made some trades. I was bullish on them heading into the season. I thought maybe this is a 48 or 49-win team at least. And then Draymond just basically loses it during the entire season. I think he has almost as many ejections and suspended games as he has games played. It was really interesting reading the coverage about this week because Doc and I talked on Tuesday before the Tuesday Night game when he swatted Nerkidge. And Doc was saying that he thought Draymond looks really good, as good on the court as he has in a while. And I said, I think he's gotten too erratic. I watched these Warriors games, and I always feel like he's on the precipice of either crossing the line, getting suspended, something bad happening. And even in games where nothing bad happened, it still felt close to something bad happening. There was that in-season game against Sacramento, and he got mad at a call and he just started like Karani chopping, Malik Monk.

And it seemed like he wanted to get kicked out. And it just felt like something was going on with him. The Nerkage play happens. The dialog about it over the next two days, which I think just would have been completely different 20 years ago if you compare it to Ron Artest, Rasheed Wallace, the way we talked about some of the on-the-line players. Everybody seemed to be horrified by Drayvon and confused by why this keeps happening. Then once we got into the sports talk shows, which I watched a few of yesterday and today, I watched Sniptoots and stuff. I watched first take. I watched Steven A, try to pull off. And I think he pulled it off, an incredible take of maybe this has something to do with Steph Curry's leadership too. And if this was a LeBron team, this never would happen. I didn't agree with the take. I just admired how he spent a minute on it. I was like, All right, you landed the plane on a ridiculous take. But there was a little bit of a kids gloves-ish thing here with Draymond because we don't really know what's going on with him because the stuff has been so erratic and so self-destructive.

I think in the mid 2020s, I think we have learned, I think social media, there's been a lot of mental health awareness stuff that's happened over the years that we just look at this stuff, trying to just be more fair to the person who's involved. When really, I feel like we probably should have been a lot harsher because Draymond not only murdered their season, and I think he did. I actually think he might have murdered their season, but did not seem remorseful, really, after any of this stuff. He didn't really seem that remorseful after the pool punch last year. And just in general, he carries himself as like, Hey, this is part of the package. This is what you get when you have Draymond on your team. And it finally crossed the line. And you know it crossed the line because he got definitely suspended, which I can only remember happening a couple of times in the history of my life with the NBA, usually in the '80s with drug stuff. But then, Steve Kerr had a really interesting press conference where he moved into the, We have to figure out Draymond long term as a human being.

The basketball this season is not even as important as trying to figure out how he can fix himself. When you start hearing stuff like that and you start hearing some of the quoted stuff on TV shows, it makes you think he's going to go get actual help. And he probably is probably going to go get anger management counseling. Maybe there's other stuff. I don't want to speculate, but it seems like he's going away for a while. And that was part of how you get the indefinitely with the player suspension. Windhorse made this point. Andre Goodala is not running the Players Association. The Players Association is going to be involved in any suspension like this. And the question now is, can Draymond change? And I just don't know. I don't see it because you're changing what fundamentally makes somebody the player they are, which is this crazy passion that he had. Rasheed Wallace had it, too. Rasheed Wallace was an incredible basketball player who couldn't stay out of his own way. He had 41 technicals in the 2000, 2001 season. I wrote in my basketball book. I thought it was one of the 10 greatest records in the NBA, like the 10 most unbreakable records.

I thought, 41 tacticals. I don't think we'll ever see that again. And I still feel that way. But he couldn't stay out of his own way. And he was one of those players that he just was a volcano. And you just never knew when the lava was going to start pouring out of him. And then other players knew how to bug them and get to them. And the referees, they had had it with them. And it just got worse and worse. It never got better. And with the Draymond piece, there's two problems here. One is that that was part of the package of how he played was, I'm a bad man. I'm a badass. I'm larger than life. I might be 6-7, but I play like I'm 6-11. I am the biggest bully out here. You felt that last year in the Laker series, and I talked about in the podcast because he's so tight with LeBron and Davis, I thought I'd heard how he played in that series because he didn't have that same swagger. He wasn't trying to kick everybody's ass. He had just a little more subdued. And subdued Draymond is not ideal Draymond.

So I wonder if he comes back from this and it's like a soft Draymond, that's going to be a different Draymond. That might not be better. No, it would be better than the Draymond that continually gets kicked out of games and suspended. But part of what made him him, I think about game two in the 22 finals, Celtic won game one. Game two, things are going pretty well. And Draymond has been taking a lot of shit during the whole playoffs that maybe he's on the other side of the mountain, all that stuff. And he had a little stretch here. And if you remember, he had that moment with Jaylen Brown. I forget he stepped over him or almost it was a borderline could have been kicked out, but it was a man against man moment. He was trying to assert some alpha dominance, and it worked. Because if you look at that moment, it was when the series started to flip a little bit. The defense that he brings, he was a defensive player of the year. I'm not breaking any news with this, but he was the quarterback of everything they did on defense.

And the way he played with Curry is one of the reasons Curry has been able to extend his prime and one of the reasons he was so awesome last year. He was so awesome in '22. That was the thing that jumped out to me tonight, watching The Warriors. First of all, I was in multiple conversations with Tola about who's the second best warrior? We couldn't figure it out because Clay had a really good game. But I'm not positive he's the second best warrior. He's been so erratic. Today, he was probably the best game in the season for him. It used to be Wiggins. Wiggins was a guy in 2022 that swung the finals and cost me a title. Not just the Celtics, not just the players and the people that work for the team. Me, I wanted another title. I don't like taking shit from Laker fans. But Wiggins was so great in that series and played bigger than he was. And he just doesn't do that anymore. I don't know what happened to the guy. Started last year. I know he had some off-the-court stuff. We still don't know what happened. But he's just a different guy.

And you watch him in the game tonight, he just looks like the Minnesota Wiggins that you had to attach with Picks at a trade to get rid of. That's the guy who he is on Golden State. That's the guy he's been. And that's one of the reasons they're struggling. They are 10 and 14. They are three games behind Phoenix who's the 10th seed, right? They are, if you look at the big picture in the west, Minnesota, Denver, OKC, Dallas, Sacramento, Lakers, Clipper. That's your top seven. Then you go to Houston, New Orleans, Phoenix. Now I'm at 10. Only 10 can even make the play in for the playoffs. Golden State is at 11, 10 and 14, and it's not going well. And what I saw in person tonight confirmed what I felt when I was watching them on TV. They're too small. Forget the second star thing for a second. They just don't have enough length. Over and over and over again. It's offensive rebounds. It's hands around the rim. It's somebody like Kauai who's been great for two weeks and is the biggest reason if you're going to buy Quipperstock, it starts with Kauai.

Kauai was just big and strong. He guard a Curry in the fourth quarter down the stretch on one end and on the other end. He just felt longer and more impactful than anyone the Warriors had. And the Warriors, they were playing hard, which is what scared me if I'm a Warriors fan or if I work for the Warriors. They really wanted the game. They got their asses kicked in the first half hard and was tremendous. They came out... The Warriors came out in the second half and they were full tilt. They were flying around on defense. They were getting loose balls. They were getting second chance points. It was about as well or at least as hard as they could play, and they still lost. And that's how... I've seen them a lot. And I've watched them a lot this year because I love Curry. Curry and Jogage are my two non-Celtic guys. And there's been games. They lost two to OKC. They lost a dumb quipper's game on a Saturday. They lose games down the stretch because they're not good enough. And it's not like, Oh, man, if this one play, they're just not good enough.

And I guess if you look big picture, you go, Well, it's not that different of a team than it was in 2022. Well, there's a couple of things. One is, as we talked about in previous pods this season, the League got bigger, which is bad for them. The 2016 small ball model, that doesn't work anymore. Curry is a little bit older. Clay is a lot a bit older and is turned into, I call him a once-a-week guy. When you get older, you can be good once a week. But if you're relying on them over and over again, it's going to be a little tougher. And none of their young guys, I like Moody. Moody was good tonight. I actually think with Draymond going away for a while, this is where you find out what you have with Kaming and Moody, either on the Warriors or is trade-based for somebody else. But they need to get taller and they need more length and they need to change this team, right? So the two pieces that don't really work are Wiggins and Chris Paul. They're down the stretch are playing Curry and Chris Paul and Clay and Looney and Kaminga.

That's a first-routeed out at best. It just is. And Curry was bad tonight. Part of it had to do with how the Clipper's guarded them and just made them work. And they were putting longer guys on them. But the other piece, why Curry was bad, this is the part that did not get mentioned. Admittedly, I didn't consume all the Draymond content this week. But this, to me, when people talk about what they're losing with Draymond when he gets ejected, suspended, whether he's getting older, the whole thing, it's his connection with Curry on offense that is the biggest thing you notice when he's not out there. Curry had this shorthand with him that was so great and had gotten to such this crazy IQ level. There's only been a couple of partnerships like this in the history league, like Stockton and Malone had it, MJ and Pippen had it. Bird and McHale had it. Shaq and Kobe intermittently had it. But when they had it, it was usually in the playoffs and big spots. That was when they would always progressively figure out how to work each other. But they did have moments like that. Duncan and Parker and Genoby all together, they had it.

You know, when you see it. And I think Curry fed off Draymond all the stuff, all the little pass and the handoffs. And then all of a sudden, he's getting the ball back or he gives it to him and then he cuts this way. And Draymond always knew what he was going to do. And the thing that jumped out tonight with the Clipper's game, nobody totally knew what Steph was going to do on the Warriors, right? They 90 % knew. But it was a whiff-off. It was like watching a tennis player that his serve is just like... Just off. He's still hitting the same thing, but it's out or it's on the line. His forehead starts just... You're watching. It's like, This guy, he's just off today. And the reason he was off was because he didn't have Draymond. So when I hear this stuff about thethere was a lot of stuff about, This is it for Draymond. He's going to leave the Warriors. Don't be surprised if he's done. They might trade him. What could they get for him? They have to make this work because Steph is 35 and this is his guy.

This is right? This is the guy that makes Steph. This is what turns him from the ninth best player in the league to in the argument for the best player in the league or one of the best players or the best offensive player, whatever you want to say. You pull Draymond away and you have games like tonight where you look up with four minutes left in the fourth quarter. He's got 15 points. He was playing hard. So they have to figure out the Draymond thing. And we'll see. Kerr mentioned his legacy. And here's what the legacy looks like. I'm old enough now that I've seen generations of these guys. I think about Rasheed Wallace. It's like he was a hothead. He was more talented than what his career panned out. Run our test on Indiana. I wrote down seasoned murderers. I just made a quick list because I think Draymond, this will go down as a possible seasoned murder, Draymond and the 2024 Warriors. Ron Artest is the all-time season murder with the Artest Melee in the 2004-05 season because Indiana would have won the title that year. I feel very comfortable saying that they had the best team.

They were kicking Detroit's ass that night. Detroit was the team they had to go through. It was a San Antonio team that was the weakest of all the Spurs title teams like Parker and Manu. Manu was pretty good, especially in the finals, but Parker wasn't quite there yet. And Duncan had a lot of miles on him from all the playoff series from the previous years. Plus, he'd done the Olympics in 2004, and Indiana should have won that year. Our test and then also pulling Steven Jackson out, murdered their season. And it's the all-time season murder. But there's been others like Kyrie and the 22 Nets. That has to count. Ben Simmons and the 22 Sixers. I don't know if they would have won the title, but him just saying, I'm not playing and missing four months of the season, that wasn't great. Dennis Rodman and the 95 Spurs. Ironically, Doc River told a story about them on podcast on Tuesday. But that was an up for grab season. And that team was pretty unhappy, as Doc described in the story, where they're all yelling at Greg Popovich and Rodman and everybody's just screaming at each other.

It was an unhappy team. And you could feel it when you're watching on the TV, even on The Square, by Square, like crappy 1995, whatever TV I had back then. You could see there's something wrong. Rodman would take his shoes off during the game and do crazy shit. And he murdered them. And then he went to the Bulls the next year and was awesome and won three straight titles. And then you had another underrated one was Gus Williams. Now, he's holding out for a new contract, but he sat out the '80-'81 season in Seattle when they just had this really nice run. They'd made two finals in a row. They were good in the '80s season. They just traded for Paul Westphal, and he sat out and killed that whole run because he was going for a new contract, which ironically got. This has happened a few times. John Morant, last season, borderline season murder. But Draymond, what he did to the wearers this year, the fact that they're 10 and 14 in a really deep conference, and now they have to scrap just to make the plan. Now they have to put in just an incredible amount of miles on Curry.

And he's the biggest loser of this. It's not Draymond. It's not the words, it's Curry. Curry is one of the 10 best players of all time. Curry is still really, really, really great. And now he's on this team where he's got to keep his fingers crossed that one of the young guys comes through or Clay Thompson is going to have a game like he had today. Or maybe Wiggins will miraculously become the guy from 18 months ago. He has too many variables, too many what ifs, too many I don't knows. And it starts with the Draymond thing. The reason they gave him out 100 million for four years was because of Curry. It was his relationship with him as a leader and as a co-leader. It was his relationship with him offensively and everything he did defensively. And that's why he's coming back. But are the Warriors dead? It felt like it tonight. I've seen a lot of great teams at the tail end, even the Celtics in the early 90s when they were a contender. But you just knew if they played Jordan, they're probably losing. You saw that '04 Lakers team, it just felt like it was coming to an end.

But those teams were still contending for titles. This team feels miles away. You're just taking Denver over them in a seven-game series, all seven games. Minnesota has way too much size for them. Oklahoma City has too much athleticism, and Shay is the best guy in that series at this point. Dallas has Luca. You have the Lakers who have the size of Davis and LeBron and the pedigree, too. And then you have this Clipper's team that I wasn't taking seriously at all. I thought the Harden trade was completely idiotic. Am I going to be wrong? Let's wait. Harden's done this before. He was super happy on Brooklyn for a couple of months. He was super happy in Philly for a couple of months. We're still in the honeymoon phase with James Harden. But I'll tell you what I saw tonight, even though he doesn't have that burst around the rim anymore, the gate management with him was outrageous. He was so good in the first half. He was so unselfish. He was setting everybody up. He was the point guard. This was the guy when Doc was talking on my podcast about when he was talking about pre-All-Star break last year hard and how great he was and how unselfish he was and what a facilitator he was.

And he wasn't looking for his own stuff at all. And then he didn't make the All-Star team and changed how he played and then screwed up their season. You saw it in this Clipper game. First half, unselfish. I think he had a 14, five, and eight. He seemed super happy. It seemed like the chemistry was good on the team. Even Westbrook seemed happy playing 10 minutes. And then the second half, it was the old school, heliocentric Harden. And that's how the Warriors got back in the game. Now know Paul George tonight. I still want to see how all this looks when it's Paul George and Kauai and Harden. But it's going better than I thought it would. And they have found something with the Manzubach, George Harden, and which the advanced metrics, I tweeted about this the other day, they're like plus 17 when they play together, and it's over 200 minutes now. So you throw that in with Powell. I'm sure they'll try to get some big guy, Plumley comes back. I wasn't taking them seriously, and I thought they were going to be horrendous defensively. They're better than I thought. I'm not admitting defeat.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I've been wrong before. I'm not going to be like, Oh, my God. I hope the Clippers aren't good, because then I will be wrong. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I think Harden has revealed who he was over the last five years, and I find it hard to believe he's just going to end up on this Clipper's team and just all of a sudden go back to 2018, James Harden. But it's going better than I thought. But the biggest reason it's going better is because Kauai, for whatever... And this is what I was talking to all the Cripper fans in my section. I was at half time talking to Letty and Jesse, a couple of die-die-die-hards. And they were like, Whatever happened to Kauai? We don't know. But in the last 10-12 days, he looks like Kauai again. And you could see it tonight. I think this is my fourth Quipper game. This was the first one where I was like, Holy shit, Kauai looks incredible. So for that alone, I'm taking the Clippers way more seriously. And you just look at the game tonight, Kauai, Paul George, and Harden, if Paul George had played, would have been three of the best four guys in the four.

And that's the real problem with the Warriors over everything else is it's Curry and then a bunch of other guys. Draymond was the one that held everything together, at least defensively, plus with the Curry connection. And that might not come back. I don't know when Draymond is coming back. As you know, I know people. Nobody seems to have an answer for this. Nobody seems to know how long he's going to be gone. It's very cryptic. And there's a sadness to it, too, because I think the general feeling seems to be like this is a guy that is actually a little bit of trouble here. He's got to figure some stuff out. And I thought what Kerr said in the press conference tonight about he's got to repair some stuff here, not just with him personally, but whatever his legacy is going to be as a player. You know who understands that more than anybody? Guess who played with Dennis Rodman for a bunch of years in Chicago? Guess who played with Rasheed Wallace? Steve Kerr. He's seen all kinds of headcases and weirdness and guys going through stuff. He was the GM of that Nash Suns team for a while.

He's been in every possible basketball situation. I'm pretty sure he's never seen this. But he's aware enough that this isn't just about this season in Jaymond and can he come back in time to help them make the playoffs? This just follows you the rest of your life. You become, Oh, yeah, you were this great, awesome player, won four titles, and then you lost it down the end. And that's how people will remember you. So they got to fix it. My vested interest in this over anything else is Curry, who him and Yogaj are my favorite non-Bostom players. And I don't like the situation he's in. They're going to probably make a trade would be my guess. And then keep your fingers crossed, Stray Mountain comes back, The situation sucks. And it's unfortunate. But hey, this is what we get for following sports. I'm going to take a break and we're going to come back and we're going to talk to Norpensiadi about football. Score early this NFL season with fan do America's number one sportsbook. Right now, new customers get $150 bonus bets when your first five dollars money line bet wins. We've been doing really well.

We hit an 11 to one parlay, same gamer, on fan do last weekend. We had to go to the Buffalo game. And apparently, a lot of people bet it. Sorry, Fando, cost you some money. Hopefully, we're going to do it again this weekend. Not only do we have million dollar picks, but on either Saturday or Sunday, we'll be posting another same game or another long shot parlay with one of the games that we like over the weekend. So watch my Twitter feed for that. You've been thinking about joining Fando, there's no better time to get in on the action. The app is easy to use. Different ways to bet like live, same game, parlay. You can find bets in the new Explorer tab. You can dive in the Parlay Hub. Visit fandool. Com/bs. Kick off the NFL season. Fandool, official partner of the NFL. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Five dollars pre-gain money line wage or required. First online real money wage or only $10 first deposit required. Bonus issue is not a withdrawable bonus, but is that expire seven days after receipt? See terms at sportsbook. Fandool. Com. All right, Norphingi Addy is here.

You can hear on The Ringer NFL show. You can read her on therenger. Com, mostly about football, some pop culture. And you can hear on every single album with my friend Nathan Hubbard, a podcast that started as a text. When I put the two of you on a text, we didn't know each other, but you both love Taylor Swift and were fascinated by her. You started arguing. At some point, we were like, What is this? Could this be a podcast? What the hell are we doing? And now a couple of years later, it's still going with the summer of Taylor. She infiltrated the NFL because that's what people do when they're the most powerful people in the world. They have to go to the most powerful sport in the world. She did that. And we're now two months in. The Chiefs are reeling a little bit. Where are we with Taylor and Travis and the Chiefs? Just give us the update.

I mean, Taylor is fine. Taylor is killing it. Taylor just had her birthday party in New York. I'm just hanging out with Lively. Everything in the Taylor world is great. I personally am a little nervous. I'm holding my breath that she is going to start getting blamed for the Chief's struggles, which are not her fault. They're not Travis's fault either. But I wonder if the tide is going to turn from the NFL side, but I don't think she really cares about that. She's just living her life.

Well, first of all, everybody's afraid to criticize or even look cross-eyed at her for two seconds.

Did you.

See Bailey Zappi talk about her? Because he said that he used to like her when she was country. And the way that he backtracked was like, it is like the Kremlin. I like country music and she used to do country music, but now she has pop. I've listened to pop music, but really so much respect for her. Everyone is really afraid.

I noticed when that Time magazine cover story that you and Nathan broke down, which got an emergence, is the first ever magazine piece of emergency podcast I think we've ever done at The Ringer or Grantland. I was really proud of both you. But she just does a drive-by shooting of Kim Kardashian at one point. Much deserved, by the way. Much deserved. Totally.

Absolutely no lies in that statement.

No lies. It had been brewing for seven years. And she's wired like Michael Jordan, where she remembers every slight, just every time her feelings have been hurt by anyone. She's always going to get revenge at some point. And what was interesting was I don't think Kim said a peep, right? She just was like.

Cool, I'm out. Kim had been inching towards trying to see if there could be forgiveness. She was using Taylor songs in her Instagram stories. And she said something in an interview maybe last year about how Kanye really made her do it with the video and blah, blah, blah, blah. So there hadn't been any direct overture, but there had been you could tell she was trying to creep back into the good graces and Taylor just to land the door.

I hope she never, ever gives her one second of the time of day. Because when the world reversed and Kim had a little more power and a bigger platform in some ways, and Taylor was a little bit vulnerable, Kim seized. She jumped on it with that weird edited. I just thought the whole thing was just lousy. I didn't like it.

Well, Taylor never should because the problem for her with Kim and Kanye always was that they could be messy in a way that she can't be messy. If you buy into the qualifications, you're buying into drama. But Taylor takes a reputational hit if she's nasty or rude or anything. So she can't get dirty in the way that they can. They are bad. Obviously, now that Kanye conversation is completely different, but just anything in that orbit is bad news.

Well, her documentary, and she's one of the people that ushered in the air of the infomercial documentary. It's a documentary, but not really the artist is in charge of it. We're only getting little snippets of real stuff that is interesting because they're controlling most of it. But the most interesting part of that documentary was the 2009, the Video Awards, Kanye coming on stage and just how traumatized that was. I'd never really thought about it since it happened, and it made me feel terrible for her.

Well, the thing that I learned from that for the first time, I think anybody who followed her learned for the first time, is that she thought people were booing her when they were booing him, which I do think was a massively moment of psychological damage. The most interesting part of the Miss America documentary to me was when her father compared her career to Bob Homes. That, to me, was really eye-opening. What does that even mean? It was about her talking about politics. He was like, Bob Hope never did this. Her mom is just like, What the heck are you talking about? It is the most illuminating. Just look at her in her circle. But the time profile was exactly like the documentary. This is a Taylor thing. She doesn't talk to the press. She doesn't need traditional media. She doesn't need to do profiles all the time, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. She turns everything down. Then every three or four years, she just does does one thing and she gives some comment on every topic people have cared about that relates to her over the last couple of years.

It's like the notebook dump. But as an interview about her life. Totally.

She just does a notes dump. There's no detail about exactly what happened or it's all very planned and thought out and strategic. But she just will tell you exactly what she thought about scooter-bron and the Kim stuff and going out more in public and just everything that is a big Taylor topic, she will just address it. I saw a lot of parallels between the Doc and the time thing.

I'm going to give you a Taylor, Travis take. This is great. I never get to talk about this stuff in my podcast. I'm sure there's like 20 % of people are like, You're fucking kidding me. Can you just get to whether Bellachick's coming.

Back or not? Dad's, Bradson, Chad's- Let me cook.

-as Taylor would call them. Let me cook. I got my apron on. Let me cook. Okay. So I read this thing because I talked with my wife and I were both fascinated. We like celebrity relationships in general. And Taylor has been in our life for a while. I'm fascinated by the concept of fame. She's the most famous person I think we've seen as an artist, really, probably since Michael Jackson. I think that's fair. And you, Nathan, talked about that a lot.

And Michael Jackson did not handle that well. And fame is also totally different now, too.

True. And you have to monitor it 24/7 constantly in a way that maybe Michael Jackson didn't. The thing that concerns me about the future of their relationship. I saw he was planning a birthday party for her. Travis, Kelsey, he's making like 11 million a year playing for the Chiefs. He's making money from his podcast. He's got some endorsements. I'm going to say he's in the low 20s, but you're dating Taylor Swift or you're dating anybody that famous. It's not like he's like, Hey, Taylor, I got us two first class tickets on Delta to fly to Kansas City. Like you're private everywhere you go. You have handlers everywhere you go. You're in the penthouse suite everywhere you go. There's a lifestyle thing that I think only a few people could date her, but also have the money, which then means she's paying for most of the stuff. Then that gets into a hole. This is weird. You're paying for stuff. I just don't know how that plays out.

There's a TikTok that I love that I have saved where I don't know, it's just two random people. But one of the guys is like, he's a mid-40s guy. And somebody is saying, guess Travis, Kelsey's net worth, and then guess the net worth of Taylor Swift's cat, Dr. Olivia Benson. Or it actually might be Meredith. I forget which cat it is. One of the cats is at 93 mil and Travis is around 30 or whatever.

One of the cats is at 93 mil?

I mean, I don't know. But yes, allegedly because she's done commercials and she's endorsed some product. The guy is just processing this information. And he starts laughing and just asking the right questions as in, so people know, like Taylor Starr's fans can identify the cat in a commercial fast enough so that Fancy Feast would blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's a really special. It's a special moment. So I hear where you're coming from.

Yeah, because I just wonder, when you're that famous and that rich, can you only date other people who are in your network of wealth? Or maybe she's on the flip side. Maybe it's not about that and she's such a grand. I don't know. I'm monitoring it because there's lots of different reasons these go sideways. Is it easier?

Is it easier in some ways because there's no question about who is orchestrating the logistics of everything.

I read that story about- The Oprah Stedman one. Yeah.

If they're going somewhere, she's saying, Travis, go to the airfield at this time. Plane is going to be there for you. Get on. Come to me. I've got the car. I've got it under control. I don't quite understand what happened with the birthday party because on her birthday, she went to Zero Bond, which is a club in New York that she's been going to for months and months and months. I'm not sure I buy that he was planning anything and then he didn't go- Maybe just to the invite list. -because he had to stay for football stuff. Yeah. Yeah, something seemed fishy about that. I wonder if why this has worked out so far as that it gets to be really on her terms.

I've lived through a lot of celebrity relationships. I think this is one of the better ones. I like the two different worlds that they come from. Seems like they like each other. They're around the same age. And they both get something out of it, which is always a key to the celebrity relationship. Like, when Jennifer Anderson starts dating Brad Pitt, he's this on-the-rise movie star about to be an A-Lister. She's on friends. She's an A-Lister. And it's like, Look at us. Now it almost is like the one plus one equals three, which is what it feels like here. I mean, for what it's done for him from a career standpoint has been jaw-dropping. But she also seems pretty cool to date. I don't know. Kudos to him. I'll be interested. Do you think they get engaged?

I have no idea. I just simply have no clue. She is at that stage of life. It seems like they're moving very fast. But I also don't know she has that celebrity thing where you're frozen. And she said this. I think she said this in the Miss America Kana Doc, where you're frozen at the age you get famous. I think in her brain, there's a part of her that's just still 15. I think it makes it very hard to figure out, is she really ready for that? Does she really want that? Is all of the stuff with the tour gearing up to take a step back and maybe start a family and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? I assume she wants that. But the tour is going to be ongoing for another year plus.

Yeah. And how does that work? It's like why the movie actors break up because one of them is doing a movie somewhere for nine months. The other one is somewhere else for.

Nine months. She's in Singapore and she's in Germany and she's in Edinburgh and she's all over the world. There's definitely some logistical questions. But it even.

Feels like that's starting to happen. Do some FaceTime, some phone calls.

Yeah, they'll do a lot of FaceTime. I'm sure she's used to that. But then again, not because the relationship with Joe Alwyn started when she retreated from the world because everybody hated her and she was a snake. Then the pandemic started. They were inside together for six years. And now she won't say the United Kingdom out loud in the timepiece. One of the little funny tidbits was she said, I moved to a foreign country. She wouldn't say, I moved to London. I moved to the UK. It was just like, that place that I will not name and that person who I will not name. Wow.

You got.

That acrimonious. She might be still going through it, too. I don't know. They're having fun.

So what was the first year she became legitimately famous?

2009.

The VMAs. The 2009 was her rookie year of fame?

Yeah. I think there's three levels to it. One of them was Fearless, the VMA is that moment, which was Love Story and you belong with me. And then the second one was 1989, which was 2014 because that was the squad and that was bringing the US Women's National team out on stage. And that was huge. That was her first.

Stadium for her. Also, that was really when she hit Zoe Simmons in the biggest possible way. That's when she got on my radar. So that never gets mentioned in that phase, but keep going.

And then the third one is just now. The third one is the last year plus and coming out of her owning the pandemic with Falklor and Evermore brought her to a new stratosphere. So there's a three-tiered thing to it.

Yes. If you take Michael Jackson, he's famous in the mid-'70s with the Jackson 5. Then that goes all the way to when he becomes a solo artist with Off The Wall, which is very around like '79, '80, '81 range. Then thriller is '82, '83. And then it keeps going really for another, I would say, 12 years. And then he becomes where all these artists end up going where they become the greatest hits version of themselves. But she's not even close to being the greatest hits version. And then if you look at her versus female artists, it's like basically her and Barbara Streisand, I think, for keeping it together as an A-plus Lister for this long. Because Barbara Streisand, not only did she have the music, but she became one of the biggest movie stars in the world for six, seven years, which is a piece tailor. I don't see that in.

Her future. Taylor hasn't really done that yet.

No, I don't see it happening.

Katz didn't exactly open up a new chapter.

I don't see that one happening. But yeah, she's in pretty crazy air where she's in the second part of her second decade of being massively, massively famous. And then all of the things are almost like decisions AI would have made for a superstar, even dating a famous football player. It's just like a really good career move. Not to mention she seems like she likes them.

Here's the... Here's the thing. I think sometimes that... Nathan and I were talking about this recently. The comp to me is LeBron in the sense that a superstar who's been around for so long and we have such a public history with.

Yeah.

And at a certain point, you get to a place where it's like, okay, I know this person rubs some people the wrong way. But if they've managed early fame and all of this success in a way where it's like, look at other people. Look at other people who got famous and successful and rich that young. They're not doing well. And the worst thing you can say about Taylor Swift is like, I don't like the faces she makes at awards shows. She seems a little annoying. That's a pretty high bar at a certain point. I ride very hard for her for a lot of reasons, but I think that's one of them.

Yeah, that's a really good point. How many female artists became famous either in their late teens, mid, late teens or in their 20s, and it started to go sideways within five, six years. And it never went one inch went sideways with her. And if it did, we didn't really know about it.

Right. What's the worst? I'm sure people would have different answers to this, but if the worst thing that she's ever done is that she didn't speak up politically in 2016 and came to regret it. I think she regrets that. It's probably unfortunate to a lot of fans, but I don't know that there are worse indictments out there than that.

Well, also, and you saw with the concert tour, the amount of songs that she has at this point that people have genuinely connected to. You're talking three generations now of fans that different songs mean different things. It's a little Springsteen-ish because this is what Springsteen was like at his peak, where he had enough of a catalog and enough albums. And people argued about what the different album, which was the best one, what was his best song? Everybody had their three or four favorite Springsteen songs that were their songs. And it's very similar to it. It reminds me of that.

I want to know how long it'll last. I wonder if I have kids, I will definitely be in the car at home or whatever going like, You got to listen to this. This is Taylor Swift. I love Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift was the biggest thing when I was growing up and blah, blah, blah, blah. Will they roll their eyes at that and be like, whatever? Or will it be cool? Will it be like, Oh, yeah, I want to get into the classics. Or, She's such an icon. I have to know. What in however many years where she'll be because she's really captured, I mean, she's captured young people now. And what staying power that leads to, I think, will be fascinating.

Well, and she has to ruin the chiefs. No, I'm just kidding. I didn't really mean that.

He is an adult man. He is an adult man who can make his own decisions.

You know what ruined the chiefs? The fact that Travis, Kelsey is 34 and put in a position where you get the shit kicked out of you every week and tight ends usually last 8-10 years. You know what ruined the chiefs?

The fact that they have a wide receiver group that can't catch and doesn't know where to stand.

Right. Right. And drops big plays. They're one of those where they could easily have three more wins. You did three more plays, three more wins.

And they would have it. I'm really with being just completely out on them. They're two... Throwing to wide receivers. Mohomes throwing to running backs and tight ends is like as Mohomes as ever. Mohomes throwing to wide receivers is in Desmond-Ritter territory statistically. You can't win a Super Bowl like that.

One of the bets I was looking at for million dollar picks, you can bet the Jets first half, Jets game against Miami. That's like plus 500 on fan deal. So basically you're saying, Tyreex is going to be limping around. Dolphins are super banged up. The Jets pass defense has been really good. Maybe they have a three-nothing lead first half and they win. But then if you put that with the Pats first half, Pats game against the Chiefs, it becomes 34 to 1. It's an insane bet. But I actually think the Pats are going to hang with the Chiefs because their defense has been good for five weeks. No Pacheco for the Chiefs. I don't think they're going to be able to run the ball and their receivers don't get open. So it just going to feel like it's going to be this ugly Foxborough. You've been to those games. It's like 22 degrees outside. The weather sucks. It's cold and it's like 7:00 to 3:00 in the fourth quarter.

Yeah, I like the half-time. What you worry about with the Pats is just like a three turnover game and all of a sudden the Chiefs have extra possessions to do something with.

Yeah, you think they'll steal it. Yeah. You buying all the Bell check stuff?

Yeah.

I think I have to.

I think it's done. Actually, I was talking to one of the guys from BBC Sports Boss in the other day. And the thing that I've gone back to this season is after they lost that Saints game and there are a couple of moments when a couple of fourth downs where Bellachiex was really conservative, where it seemed like they should have gone and they didn't. And he got asked after that game, Why weren't you more aggressive? And his answer was, We're not good enough. We're not fundamentally good enough on third and fourth down to have earned my trust to go for those fourth bounds. In hindsight, that was the moment to me because they are not a good team. They don't have a good roster. And when you don't have a good roster, you have to roll the dice sometimes. You have to do the Brian Flores thing in Minnesota right now with that defense where it's just like, Let's make it chaotic. Let's make weird stuff happen. And then maybe we get a few lucky bounces. And we need that because we're not that good. I think Belichick is still a really good coach with a lot to offer, but I don't think he's a good coach for a bad team.

And I think if they're going to get better, they have to just admit that they're a bad team. And I don't think he can do that. I don't know how it happens. I don't know how they work out the money and who cares about saving face, but I don't think that they can keep going.

The biggest thing they have to work out is that if it is time, the exit where we all feel good about it, where there's the statue outside the stadium and there's Bill Belichick Day in two years. This can't be acrimonious.

But does he care about that? Does Bill care about that? I'm sure Robert Kraft cares about that.

I think Bill cares about legacy history way more than people realize. I've said this over and over again. He's like a real student of everything.

I think he cares about that a ton. But I think he also knows that... I mean, it's proven true with braided, right? Two years from now, Bill Belichick Day is going to go off without a hitch. Bill Belchick Day is going to be fine. But in January and February, when there's a difference between, okay, can we come up with a mutual parting of ways where everybody's happy? And maybe you work through a trade offer where he might be willing to take a little bit less money and everybody ends up looking good and he goes to a contender. That type of communication and everyone being on the same page, I'm a little less confident that that's how it's going to go. Because if the crafts pull that check into a meeting right now and say, look, Bill, it's time. We have to talk about how we're going to do this.

Yeah.

Isn't he going to give the blank press conference stare and say, do what? What are you talking about? I'm just here to.

Get.

Ready for Minicamp.

Or it could be what Tom Kerrins said already that they decided... He said on a pod, and he hasn't written it yet, but he mentioned on a pod that he thought after the Germany game, they all decided this is going to be a wrap at the end of the year, and they've kept on the wraps. I don't know if it's true or not true. I will say this, though. I thought Chad Fin wrote a good piece in the Boston Globe this week about, Don't check the coach. This is still a good coach. Who are you going to go out and get that's a better coach? The question for me, A, if he wants to shop for the groceries, the famous Parcells and coach the team. He's proven that he can't do that anymore. He's unfortunately too old. He has seven years of drafts and free agency that suggest that he's not capable of doing that and coaching the team well. So is he going to admit that? A. And then B, if he's just going to be a coach, why couldn't still be with the Patriots? Go get him a front office person, have him work with the person.

My question with this whole Bellcheck thing, if he leaves, he's not going to retire. Who is going to say to him, Here are the car keys. Do everything for us. That would be insane. How do you not just go on pro football reference and look at the last seven drafts? Who is going to be insane to do that? Nobody.

It would be insane, which is why I offer you Jerry Jones.

Jerry Jones? They might.

Win the Super Bowl. I know this is totally like the hairbrand, but this is my theory, and I have heard from people that they don't think it's the craziest thing. Cowboys get bounced early in the playoffs. I think that team looks great. I wouldn't bet on it based on just the eye test on the field. But it's also the Cowboys. It's Mike McCarthy. You never know. Early, embarrassing playoff exit yet again. Jerry Jones is distraught. He's drowning his feelings in Johnny Walker Blue.

And.

He's the guy. He is the guy with the job to offer that Belichick could count on being able to continue to collect wins, get closer to Shula, have a path to beating the Shula record reasonably quickly. Jerry's got the money for it. It's prestigious enough that it doesn't feel like a personal L. And I think Jerry Jones would do it. There is one guy in the entire League who I think is crazy enough to do it, and I think Jerry would do it.

Coach and GM you're saying.

Coach and GM, except for the fact that who runs that personnel department? Stephen Jones. Someone with the last name of the owner is the other person there, which I think that's a unique element in terms of the power structure, right? Because Bill can't... I mean, he certainly couldn't say, I'm not doing what you want me to do in the same way that, I mean, what? Matt Gro is who he's currently bouncing ideas off of and having to come to decisions with in New England. It would be really different. It just doesn't seem quite as crazy as it sounds.

It's a good theory. I was thinking Chargers would be the only other team that would be panicky enough to be like, all right, here's everything, because their coach is going. I don't know how.

They'll pay for it. I mean, maybe in a trade. If they could do a trade where the crafts are still on the hook, at least for next year, maybe then it happens.

You know, crafts getting something out of this. There's no way. He's like, Yeah, Bill, thanks for everything.

But the problem is that the Belichick contract is such a black box. And what it says about what they can do and if he is owed a job where he has personnel say, I just have no idea. And I think the people who do have any idea, there's three of them. And two of them have the last name, Kraft, and the other one has the last name, Belchick.

You covered the paths, though. They're secretly cheap with this stuff. And I wonder if his contract is as lucrative as people seem to think.

I think there's one. I think it is. I think there is one contract that is a massive exception. And then the rest of the time- Interesting. -they hire people who are still being paid from another team and try to get around that. But I think Bill has owed a lot of money for next year. And if you are the chargers and you've paid your last three coaches four million bucks a year, that's a real thing to work out. So if it was via trade, I could see that happening. But I think there's a larger hurdle to making that happen than it seems like there would be.

We have a guy at The Ringer. I'm not sure if you've heard of him, Ben Solak.

I have.

You've heard of him? Okay. He did a podcast with Shiel last week, and he threw a take out that Bill Belichick will be a playoff coach next year somewhere. No matter where he is, he would be in the playoffs. And I thought Shiel was going to have a conipion as he was listening to it.

It was really good.

It was good content.

The craziest part of that was that it encapsulated if he stayed in New England.

Which- Oh, yeah, that was part of the take because he was like, They already have the defense. Gonzales is coming back. Judans is coming back. They're going to have the third or fourth pick. I was like, I'm in. I'm in on the 11-6, Belichick.

Honestly, I'm in too. I'm in too because I think there's basically zero chance he stays in New England, and that would be the hard one for me to wrap my head around. Dallas? Bill Belichick would make the Chargers a playoff team. I feel good about that. I feel really good about that. I don't care about the curse and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. What the curse needs is a little bit of Bill Ballachick. So if they could make it happen with the contract and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, I would be excited about that too.

I just get concerned when people at their 70s having jobs that usually require 70 hours of work a week. I just know you've met my father. My dad, he got pulled off by Netflix because Netflix is checking all the accounts. He was on my Netflix forever.

Yeah, that's been a way in our household, too.

It's.

Easily been the most traumatic thing that's happened to him in 2023. He has no idea how to get Netflix now. I've explained to him, just sign up. And then you just follow the instructions and you pay for it. And it's like I'm asking him to land an airplane because the pilot passed out. And I just think of that when he's around, but maybe three, four years older. And I just think of Belichick trying to put together a draft and my dad not being able to do Netflix worries me. Just a tiny bit, not afraid too bad. All right, we'll take a break. And we're talking about the week 15th late. All right, so Million dollar picks have been red-hot.

I'm a little nervous.

I've been red-hot. And I asked you to bring one pick. I'm going to tell you a couple of games that I really like, and you could just give me your instant Taylor Swift reaction, almost like you hear the Taylor Swift song, You know in two seconds whether it's a hit or not. I'm going to throw these picks at you. The game I like the most is the bears at Cleveland. The bears are 3-point underdogs. I think they've been a different team the last five, six weeks, just in general. They're fourth in rushing. Their defense has been a little frisky. That's second against the rush for the year. But their big thing for their last five, they beat Carolina by three. They should have beaten Detroit, beat Minnesota by two, and then they beat Detroit by 15 last week. Those are last four. I feel like the arrow is pointing up with them. Then you go to Cleveland, you can only startstart two offensive tackles. They've lost three. They're down to tackles number four and five on their offensive line. Their center is hurt. He might play, might not. They have two defensive tackles that are now out for the season.

And then a third one has a concussion. They just gave their safety grant out an extension. He immediately is out for the season. Jerome Ford has an injured wrist. Denzel Ward was hurt last week. Their best cornerback might play this week. And Amara Cooper has been hurt for two weeks. This is one of the all-time most banged up teams, and I don't think they're going to be able to hold on against a Chicago team that's playing pretty well. What do you think?

I love it. I'm so on the bears here. The sweat trade worked out in a way that I did not imagine it would have mostly because of value, but that's been a top 10 defense.

You mean the much ridiculed sweat trade.

Including by me. By myself as well. But they've looked really good. The other thing is you just made such a good case for all of the component parts mattering. Here's mine. Is Joe Flacko going to keep doing this? Right. They're going to keep having Joe Flacko throw 45 passes a game and not get burned.

Because of it? In front of no offensive line.

Totally. Yeah. No, I'm glad you picked this one. I love the bears here.

Okay, good. Because I thought that line still seems off. And I wonder when we get to game time, whether this goes to bears plus one, something like that. But for now, I'm grabbing it. So that's one. Next one, you mentioned the Cowboys earlier. And this Cowboys build, they're at Buffalo. Buffalo needs the game. The lines dropped to Buffalo is now minus one and a half. And Buffalo's offense is really good. If you look at the numbers, it seems like Buffalo is going to be able to move the ball against Dallas. No question. Dallas, some of the road steps, a little iffy with them. They're definitely a great team at home. A little iffy on the road. They've had the last Arizona, they've had some shaky months. It's going to be in Buffalo, probably, Cole. This sounds like a Collinsworth. I just think they're bigger than Buffalo's Defense. I feel like they can overpower them. And I'm thinking about them in a tease because if it's plus one and a half, I could take the plus seven and a half, make it a two-score game. I think it's a close game. I'm not positive who wins, but I think they're big enough that they hang around and maybe they steal it.

I like the tease idea because I would not want to pick this in a close one.

In a straight up. Yeah.

The Bulls do not actually need to win this game to have a really good shot at making the playoffs. If they win the last three, which is Chargers, Patriots, Dolphins, they probably will get in. They're not guaranteed, but they probably will still make the playoff. They don't absolutely have to do it. I don't like trusting Buffalo to do really anything, but I also think that they have a lot of offensive power. And if they don't turn the ball over, which is always the story, they could absolutely hang with Dallas.

I could see Dallas actually beating them by double figures. I could see Buffalo winning the game. But I don't see Buffalo beating the hell out of Dallas.

No, because they're hanging on by a thread defensively. Look, Sean is not having a good year. But if there's anything to say for that guy right now, it's that I would have expected this defense to collapse in a way that it just hasn't. But I don't. I mean, against Jack, the way he's playing right now, if anyone wins in a blowout, it's definitely the Cowboys. But weird stuff happens in Bill's games. I don't want... I don't want a piece of it.

So I was going to tease them with the Rams who are minus six and a half against Washington. Washington's defense, they're 30-second in yards per play. They're 30-second against the pass, 23rd against Red Zone. And I think this Ram's team, Healthy, I genuinely like their offense. I think they could move the ball against almost anybody. I wouldn't want to see them in the playoffs. As long as I know they're healthy. Mcveigh, I think, is legitimately in the Coach of the Year. And this is just the game they should win. Riverboat Ron is now Roboat Ron, as we've all discussed in our pods. Roboat Ron is just rowing toward the end of the season before he gets fired. The team has no incentive. They've gotten worse every month. And I don't see how the Rams don't beat them. So that was a tease I like, Rams Cowboys.

Yeah. So this is the game that I love. I don't think there's a world in which the Rams don't score more than 30 points in this game. And if you're telling me that has to light him up, I'm very confident that he can do that.

This.

Ram's offense, when they have had their playmakers healthy, is easily top 10 and is sniffing being a top five offense. What's really hurt them is that their 30-second in special team CBOA, and obviously that's what lost in the game against the Ravens. But I just don't.

Think that those- And the seven holding penalties.

Right.

And the score blocks in the back.

They mess stuff up like that. But also, Sean McVeigh, I think, has been putting on a clinic this season in terms of just reaffirming that he's committed to football. He's still got it. And I think he cares about beating Washington. I still think that every one of those guys, when they've worked somewhere, it does matter to them. So I think they'll be motivated. And I just don't think that the little margin call stuff of them being young and making mistakes and special teams and penalties, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Against the Ravens, that totally matters. Against the Commanders, I don't think that matters.

Plus, you're looking at they got four games left. They win this. They're seven and seven. They got the Saints at home next week. God only knows who's playing quarterback for that crap Saints team that's gotten worse. Another team that's gotten worse every month.

The Saints are fighting each other on the sidelines. The Saints are-.

That's in trouble. Then they're at The Giants on New Year's Eve in a 10 o'clock game, which is like, Oh, the Rams, eight and seven. Nobody wants to play them. Then I could totally see them losing that game. And then they played the Niners last week of the season. But to me, I'm with you. I don't know if it's a top five offense, but it's definitely sniffing when all those guys are there. If you just look at their starting running back and they're two best receivers, that's in the vicinity of anything anybody else has as a top three. I really like them.

And Stafford is the perfect quarterback for a team like this because he's not afraid to be in a shootout. He's not afraid to need to... If you need to score 35 to win, he's perfectly happy to do that. The health stuff has been the question there. But I still think that when he's on the field, when he's healthy, he's playing really, really, really well. So I love that pick.

Well, I have two more that I like. But do you have a pick or did we already do it? Is there something you really like on the slate?

So I liked... Ii'd liked the rams. I liked commander's rams. But let's talk about... So here's one that I want to see how you feel about because I'm tempted but feel a little stupid.

Okay.

Could the lions stop the skid? Could the lions look a little bit better defensively? Playing a quarterback in Russell Wilson, who at this point just doesn't have the mobility? I think that's when that defense has been extra soft, is when they face a mobile quarterback, especially, I mean, you saw it in The Bear's Game. They just fold. But I don't think they have to deal with that in Denver. And their home, they're in the Dome. Golf is going to be a little bit more comfortable, I think. And I just wonder if... I wonder if everyone is off the scent with the lions, and it's making me a little bit tempted, which makes me feel really dumb because I don't want to trust that team. I don't trust that team at all. But it just seems like minus four, I think it is, feels a little low.

Yeah. You think like five, six weeks ago, this is a minus nine or minus nine and a half. Man, I was with you. I was like, this is the week. Everybody's off the lions. This is the week they bounce back. And then I looked at their last seven. So starting with the Ravens killed them 38-6, Vegas, they beat 26-14. That's right as the McDaniels thing is imploding, right? Chargers, they barely beat 41-38. They give up 38 points to the Chargers. That seems so bad, though, in retrospect. They barely beat Chicago and should have lost 31-26. They lose to Green Bay and Thanksgiving by seven. They barely beat a New Orleans team that hates each other, 33-28. And then they got waxed by the bears last week. So this is their last seven. We're talking more than a month and a half now of, can you play a good game? And you look at the big picture stats, their defense, their 29th and Red Zone, their 26th and Sachs, their 23rd and creating turnovers. Their defense just doesn't do anything. So that would be like, is that actually a good fit against Russell Wilson?

I do think that they especially struggle when the quarterback has some mobility. And Russ, in some ways, I think plays into that because when he screws up, it's because he thinks he's got some left and he just doesn't. That Denver offense is actually at its best when he stays in the pocket. One, always a coin flip if he's going to be willing to do that. But two, I think they're probably a little bit more capable of defending an offense like that. Yeah. But look, bigger picture with the Lions, I am not there. I don't think this team is good. I don't think that defense is going to be able to do anything against real playoff teams. But I think the Broncos hype is high and the Lions hype is low. And I wonder if the line is a little reflective of that.

I was looking at... I was trying to figure out a good Saturday special parlay because I like the Colts against the Steelers. Not enough to bet on its own, but to throw in a parlay just because the Colts offense can actually score, regardless of their defense is terrible, but they always are going to be 20 points or higher. And the Steeler is just... I don't know if it's Trubiski. I've seen Mason Rudolf play quarterback. Whoever it is, it's going to be bad. And we know they have a bad offensive coordinator. So how do they score more than 20 points against anybody? And the Colts can just score more points.

That would be a pick from the heart for me because I like watching the Colts play. They're not great, but I like watching them play. And I hate watching the Stealers. It is just like you got to do one of these with your eyes and hold them open.

And then the other Saturday game is Bangles Vikings, where it seems like all the smarter, sharp people are on the Vikings. Bangles, you're buying high on them because they've looked good the last two weeks. Browning was 50 for 60 his last two weeks. But the Minnesota defense, which I mean, they're 50 on yards per play. They're third against first down. It really seem like they found something with the thing. But it's like what you said before. It's almost gimmicky. And part of me is like, oh, I see the Minnesota case. They're getting three and a points. The other part is like, maybe Jake Browning is good. And we do this every year with we don't trust the out of nowhere quarterback, but it's like maybe he's just good.

Maybe he'll pick apart that blitz. Okay, but we also do this three times a year where it's like, oh, maybe Josh Dobbs is.

Really good. Yeah, that's fair. You have the feel on that game?

I would rather trust that the Vikings can make life hell for Jake Browning then trust that Jake Browning is actually a good quarterback. He has been good against the Blitz. I think this is from memory, so I might be wrong on this, but I think it's like 12 for 19.

I.

Just don't really buy that that keeps up. And I do think that if there's a defense that just for a quarterback who doesn't have a lot of experience can just freak you out, that's a pretty good one. So I don't think the Bengals... I think credit to them that they've been able to do this the last couple of weeks, but I think it probably ends this weekend.

I'm not a nick Mullen's guy. Just in case anyone asks you over the next four days like, Hey, I was just wondering, is Bill a nick Mullen guy? The answer is not really. Yeah. The only case with the band, I was trying to think of narratives coming out of this weekend. And the Vikings have no running game at all. They have Jefferson, who's going to play this week, but had this horrible chest injury that he immediately had to go to the hospital. So even if he's playing, that dude's not 100 %. And then I don't know who's playing quarterback. If it's nick Mullen, is it him for all four quarters? What if he's not good? Do they go back to.

The B-Y-U-K? What do they do? Well, Ruiz wants a platoon. Ruiz wants have nick Mullen do most of the game but use Dobbs, this is athleticism.

There's a sincey Indy Denver money parlays plus 706. So I was looking at that one. All right, couple more. So the Niners are playing the Cardinals. They're huge favorites. But if you take Niners first half, which has been money as a bet all year because Shannon, like David Fincher, scripting out of storyboards. He scripts out his first 20 plays. So Niners to win the first half, Niners to win the game against a team that I think has the worst defense in the League. It's either them or Washington. That's minus 280. And the question is, what minus three team do you put with that to get a nice little parlay of plus? And I narrowed it down to the Ravens just to beat the Jaguars, just Moneyline, Ravens over Jags, or Atlanta to beat Carolina.

Oh, Atlanta.

That's the other one I can't figure out. So the other thing is you can bet Atlanta.

Straight up. That's the other one I can't figure out. You just.

Bet Atlanta straight up because they're so weird, don't tie them to another team and just take Atlanta minus three against Carolina's crappy team and the Press, Bryce Young and this coaching staff that Jim Caldwell is now involved and helping to run practices. I don't know what's going on with that team. So you like Atlanta more than the Ravens?

Yeah. Just because the Jags are a good team with a good quarterback who's still coming back from injury. But that could, Trevor Lawrence could throw four touchdowns in the first half, and all of a sudden, the game is just a totally different situation. Carolina is a terrible team. Atlanta is so discombobulated and finds every possible way to lose, but they still move the ball. They out gained... I'm trying to think of what it was. I think they out gained... They had something like 144 more yards in their game last Sunday. And I think Bryce Young threw for 139 total.

Oh, Jesus.

They're just a wildly better team than the Panthers. I know it's the Falcons, but that's the only reason anyone would even pause, I think, is just all the weirdness around that team. They're way better than Carolina.

One thing I like about the money line in that is you don't have to worry about Atlanta playing these stupid games where somebody misses a two-point or there's an extra point got blocked and it's like 15 to 14. And you're like, What's happening in this game? Why aren't the Falcons covering? So I just like the money line with them.

I think that's probably for the best. I do think that if there's any week to feel confident that you don't need to worry about that. It's when they're playing the Panthers. But it's probably a sound strategy.

The only thing that worries me with the Panthers is that they literally have nothing to play for because I don't have their pick. Those teams always scare me. You can't count on the coaching staff or the owner to be like, Hey, can you sit that wide receiver? Last one. I really like this one. I like the Slate again this week. I'm feeling confident. I like the Seahawks against the Eagles. Let's either be closer to win because I think they are going to be able to move the ball offensively on them. Honestly, I don't think the Eagles's defense is good. I think we have a big enough sample size now. They're 28th on first down, they're 32nd on third down. They're 30th in the red zone, they're 28th against the pass. We have a 13-week sample size that their defense isn't good. And J. S. N. Got going for the Seahawks the last couple of weeks. They have three receivers who can get open. Walker is coming back. Charbonne, he got going. Walker was out, and they have this two-headed monster running back. I just think they're going to score points. And I was looking at you can adjust it to Seattle plus four and a half with the over the 42 and a half, and that's plus 140.

And I thought that look pretty tasty because I think this is a close game with some points.

I think this is the only one so far I've really been with you. But the Seattle offensive line is so banged up. And if I look at the Seagulls team, and I think about what they must be talking about in that building this week, they have to get their pass rush going. They are not going to be able to fix their secondary. They're not going to be able to fix their linebackers and their safety for the playoffs. But if that defense has any hope in the next couple of months, what has to happen is they have to start pressuring, opposing quarterbacks. And I think this is an opportunity for them to do it. And they still... Essentially, it is the same group from last year. You swap out Hargrave for the draft pitch. That's fair. And they should be able to do it. And I think this is the week for them to try to start really focusing on that. And Seattle being able to protect worries me.

What if I took the Seahawks to plus seven and a half?

Okay. Yeah.

That's. Seattle plus seven and a half with the over 42 and a half is basically even odds. One-score game, they can move the ball. I was impressed by Seattle against Dallas. I thought Dallas was going to be able to demolish their line. And I don't know, they move the ball. And I think with those three receivers, I think they're hard to play now.

Well, in the way that they've handled Gino's health has indicated that they have been targeting this game and going, We got to be ready for the Eagles game. He's got to be as healthy as he can be for that game. And that's what we've got to prioritize. So I'm good with that. I like that.

Okay. Jets, dolphins. Jets are getting eight and a half. I think the dolphins are decimated with injuries now. They're officially past the danger point. Colin's hurt. Armstead is always hurt. Tyreke is going to be limping around. It's bad weather. It's just all you're watching that Titans's game and having them in a moneyline parlay and just like, Oh, my God. I had to hedge at half time.

It completely beats me why the jets defense is still playing really, really hard, but they are still playing really, really hard. They found a way to care about this team. Yeah, that line is too big because that defense is really, really good. And Miami is so banged up. And the Tyreke thing, I mean, when he spaces them out, the offense works. And it's so simplistic. But I feel like when he's not himself or if he's on the field, it's just... I mean, we saw it in that Monday night game. It just does not work. It's a downright bad offense when he's not playing. They can't block. And -.

They can't block. Tua turns into Scott Mitchell as soon as Ty reaks off the field. He just can't move. He just becomes lefty. If he's not getting rid of the ball in two seconds, he seems like a different guy. I thought that was the weirdest injury I've ever seen in a football game. Hurt his ankle. Then he's just standing on the sidelines. They're not working on it. There's no electrolytes on it or anything. Then he goes back in, then he's out again. And it's like, what? Are you hurt? What is this? He's just a very strange guy.

Yeah, strange. Well, there's always a lingering thing. And then he does go and get the, it's not a Tharragun, but the weird sideline treatment and then it helps. But it just feels like that's going to be a thing for them for the rest of the season. And the Jets defense is too good. I don't buy any of the Zach Wilson hype, but that line is too big.

They look good last week. Their past defense is about as good as anybody in the league now. Totally. You really can't throw in them anymore. So I think Miami, I don't know, the Jets are an interesting something in that game. That first half jets game bet is plus 500. You could do jets plus eight and a half with some under some place. I'll figure it out when I do million dollar picks. Nora, is Ruiz... When does he admit defeat on Brock Purdy? Never?

Never.

Never. This is just it. He's and Trench.

We've got to talk some sense to him on some level because he made a promise to stop covering the sport. I think if Purdy won MVP, and I personally, that would be bad for me because he's my bad partner.

It'd be bad for all of us. Yeah, you.

Just have to walk it back. We're walking that back a little. But he makes a good argument. That's all I'll say for the guy.

Do we have to do an intervention? They used to do a 90s teen soap operas where I asked to talk to him on a Zoom, but when he shows up in the Zoom, there's nine people there. We're all there. They're like, Steven, we need you to give up this Brok Pirty thing. He's been really good.

Just do it. Yeah. All those studies about why political media is so broken because when people receive counterarguments to things they hold true- They triple.

Down on their.

Own arguments. They just triple down on their own arguments. I think we might create a monster.

All right. You can listen to Aaron Ringer, NFL show. You can listen on every single album and you can read around theringer. Com. Good to see you.

Good to see you.

We are supported by NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube and YouTube. Don't change your team when you change your team. Get NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube and YouTube. Where it's easier than ever to keep up with all your favorite teams on Sunday afternoons. Right now you can still get the midseason price starting at $79 for the rest of the 23th season. The biggest stretch we have, the biggest fantasy stretch we have when bundled with YouTube, TV. Think of all the fantasy implications. I have a buy in the fantasy league I care about the most where we vote out somebody else. And it's going to be weird for me watching my fantasy guys wondering, Wait a second, don't use up all your good fantasy points this week. Save it for next week. Even though they don't even know they're all on the same team, but we got all the fantasy guys. There's a couple of sneaky home dogs. You got the jets and you got the chiefs. Who knows what those? I think it's going to be a crazy week 15. I just feel it in my bones. I think weird stuff is going to happen. Thanks to the NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube and YouTube TV for sponsoring the segment.

It is truly the best place to keep up with all your favorite teams at a Market Sunday games. Right now, again, you can watch the rest of the NFL season for a lower price get NFL Sunday tickets starting at $79 when bundled with YouTube. Tv, we're getting more football. Sign up right now, YouTube. Com/bs, lowest price on YouTube. Twv with base playing rest of 2023 season terms and embarkosy. No cancelations. Million dollar picks, week 15. Just happy times here at the Million dollar Picks headquarters. Last week we won 1.822 million. For the season, we were up 2.626 million. There's a time we got to a dark place here at Million dollar Picks. I think I was down over two million. You can cave. You can blame other people. You can finger-point. Or you can say, You know what? What am I doing wrong? I'm not going to blame other teams, bad quarterbacks, dumb coaches I bet on. What am I doing wrong? And I rededicated myself to the process. And also I got super lucky with a couple of games. Week 15, yet another week. I really like this late. We talked about bears and browns with Nora Prenseadi, bears plus three in Cleveland.

The Browns are just incredibly banged up. The bears are on a little, I'm going to call it a hot streak, but it's a warm streak. And they're starting to look like the sneaky second half team, at least in the NFC. I love bears plus three. I think they could win this game outright and probably will. But I'll grab the points. Bear's plus three, $300,000. Next one, we're doing a tease. Mentioned this with Nora, Rams teasing them down against Robo Ron to minus 0.5, and we're putting them with the Cowboys. Everyone's on the Bill's and that Bill's Cowboys game. It's the Bill's time. Here they come. Somebody texted me today about how they like Josh Allen for MVP at 14 to 1 if they win this game. Here comes Josh Allen. I'm still in on the Cowboys. I think their offense of line, how big and powerful they are, the protection the deck has. We haven't seen it a hundred % translate on the road yet, but I think it will in this game. I want to tease them the plus seven and a half. I don't know if they're going to win this game, but I think it's a close game.

And I don't see either defense really a hundred % stopping the other offense, which is fine. Let's go back and forth. But Cowboys plus seven and a half, rims minus 0.5, put 300K on that as a tease. Next one, Seattle is playing Philadelphia. They're getting three and a half points at home. Do you see the Dallas game? Seattle can move the ball. Seattle has got three receivers and two good running backs and Ginos up and down. But from what we've seen from Philly's defense, the stats are absolutely alarming with Philly's defense. You go through it and it's like they're 28th and third down. Everything is 26, 28, 29, 30, whatever category you want, first downs, anything. And I think Seattle is going to be able to throw the ball on them. So I want to do Seattle plus seven and a half that's adjusted with the over adjusted to 42 and a half. So I think it's going to be a close game. Maybe Seattle wins, but I think they hang around. And I think there's some points that is minus one or two or putting 300K on that. I actually think Seattle could beat Philadelphia.

I'm not buying Philadelphia's defense at all. And they have an easy stretch. They'll be fine. By the time we get to January, I'll be back in on Philly. But I think this is the last week where we're going, Wait, what's going on with Philly? Also, it's a fantasy week. And there's a lot of fantasy guys in this game. I don't know. I'm just feeling over. Last one, it's a parlay. It's a fun one. We talked about Atlanta versus Carolina. Any chance to bet against Carolina? The line is only three. We're going to take the Atlanta money line because Atlanta is incapable of playing a normal game. So you lay minus three with Atlanta and they win by two or they win by one and a half or they win by 0.33 points. I've seen them do it. We're just going to take them to Atlanta money line parlayed with San Francisco playing the terrible Cardinals defense. And San Francisco winning the first half of games is about as reliable of a bet as you can get. You can parlay San Francisco winning the first half of San Francisco winning the game is minus 280. Put that with the Atlanta money line, that is plus 111.

That sounds magnificent, my friends. We're going to grab that. We're putting 300K in that. And then last but not least, got a bet on the Saturday games. I like Cincinnati against Minnesota. Everyone's on Minnesota. They can't run the ball and they're playing nick Mullins at quarterback. And Justin Jefferson is questionable because he got hit so hard in the chest they had taken the hospital. I'm staying away from that. I like the way Cincinnati is playing. I'm a Jake Browning guy. I believe in the guy. All he does is throw accurate passes to his teammates, which is one of my favorite qualities of the quarterback. Taking them, taking Indianapolis over Pittsburgh because Pittsburgh is either playing Trabiski or Mesar and we're out for both. I'm out. Taking Indianapolis, they can outscore them in Indy. And then last but not least in a parlay here, Denver Moneyline in Detroit. I'm not buying the Detroit. Here they are. They're going to reset it. Detroit's been bad or mediocre or forgettable here for seven straight weeks. And defensively, I just don't think they have it. So the three of those together, that's plus 7.49 for the three. And we're going to put 50K on that.

And then last but not least, we're going to do a same game, probably that I'm going to put on my Twitter feed on Saturday or Sunday. That's either going to be with the Ravens-Jaguars game because I like the points in that Ravens game. So looking at something like Lamar, Odell-Beckham, 60-plus yards, Odell-Beckham scores a touchdown. And then something with the over and you can get it to 10-1-11. We might do that. We might do something with the Jets game. I was afraid to put the jets in this because Zach Wilson is their quarterback. But I like their past defense against a banged up Miami team. I think they can hang around in this game. The Lion is plus nine and a half. You could have the jets plus three and a half, get that a plus two, 10 on Fando. So I'm looking at one of those two for a same game, Parlay. Either way, those are the million dollar picks for week 15. All right, our friend, Cord Jefferson is here. He has a new movie called American Fiction that is doing very well and I think has been screened at how many different places.

Do you have to go to these screenings? It's like every.

Part of the country. Oh, yeah, man. Oh, yeah. I'm going around the world. I'm leaving to London tomorrow. I was in London a few weeks ago. I'm leaving to London tomorrow and then Paris. Yeah, it's been a run. We premiered on September eighth, and it's been non-stop after that.

What's your screening strategy? Do you leave? Because some people just.

Leave and come back in the end. Yeah, I leave. I haven't watched the movie all the way through. We had a casting crew screening in Boston a month ago, and I sat through that one. But that's the last time I've seen it. I mostly just leave these days. Watching it is painful, and that I love the movie. I'm very proud of it. But I just see all the mistakes that I made in every scene, and I just can't bring myself to sit through that anymore.

Are you constantly surprised that people laughing at parts you never expected them to laugh at? That's always the weirdest thing for screening, that documentaries are there for the movies. But I'm always amazed what gets reactions versus what we thought we get a reaction.

Yeah, but it also changes everywhere you go. That's the fun part. I think we need to treat the cinema experience like live music. I think that that's the joy of going to the movie isn't that you have a big screen. It's like, whatever, big screen is fine. You can get a big screen at your house these days. But I think just being amongst hundreds of people who are having sometimes similar, sometimes different reactions from you is like part of the fun. Especially a movie like this that this is a movie that people are going to feel differently about different aspects of it. And so being in a room with a bunch of people who might feel differently from you is nice, I think.

What's your promotional strategy? Because I know you pretty well. We've known each other a while. We have a lot of mutual friends, and it's incredible to watch the ascent that you've had. But you're not really a let me go on 25 podcasts and 17 TV shows type of person. So I'm sure they're asking to promote it. I know you hate this.

No, yeah. You don't become a writer to be on stage in front of a bunch of people. At least I became a writer because I like being alone in my room with my thoughts and my computer. So this is all new to me, but I'm so proud of the film. I'm happy to do this. But yeah, this is a little unnatural for me. I don't feel like I'm good at it yet. I think that I'm learning how to be a salesman because that's part of the job. And it's a part of the job that I hadn't prepared myself for. If you are going to make movies, then you need to... Part of the job is to be out there supporting it and getting people to go see it. And so I'm now realizing that this is just going to be part of my job for the rest of my life. And I need to find ways to do it. I can't just hide from it and say I'm not going to do this ever. I think that I need to become better at being on stage. So I've been trying to do that slowly. I've taken some media training.

I'm getting.

Better at this.

Media training? Oh, my God. Oh, yeah, man. Oh, yeah. I did a whole day of media training before we started the press store.

Well, is it fair to say you're a naturally suspicious person for the most part?

What do you mean, suspicious?

Well, just like people acting... People maybe you've met in the past or people maybe who wouldn't have been as nice to you four years ago, but now you have this big movie. Oh, yeah. And people were like, Yo, Korn. And you're like, When were you in 2017?

Yeah, I definitely recognized that there's people who are all of a sudden following me on Instagram. Oh, Jesus. I definitely am recognizing that all of a sudden, there's people who definitely, I think, had a different opinion of me four or five years ago than they do now. Yeah. I don't think that that makes me suspicious or skeptical, but I think that the greatest grounding moment in all this. At Toronto, where we premiered the film, I signed my first autograph. That was very strange. We were walking out of a press thing and somebody was like, Would you please sign this? And they had a picture of me. I have no idea where they got this picture of me. So I signed it. And then we went to another thing and there was more people asking for autographs and people were asking for selfies and stuff. And I was like, Wow, look at this. People know who I am. Right before I got in the car, this one woman ran up to me and she goes, Corey. Corey, can I get a photo of you? I love your work. And I was like, Oh, she doesn't even know my name.

This person actually has no idea who I am. And she's been drawn into this like frenzy around me because she assumes that I'm somebody that this is going to be a picture that she wants to have on her phone. But she actually has no fucking clue who I am, and it doesn't matter. So I think that that, to me was like, as soon as I heard that, I was like, Oh, I don't need to pay attention to this stuff, but I just need to focus on what's important, which is the movie is important and getting the work out there is important.

Well, and you grind it for a while, so that makes it easier to appreciate all this stuff. It's been funny, just anecdotally hearing about the movie. It's like, Court's making a movie. Oh, that's cool. And then it's like, Sterling K. Brown is going to be in it. Jeffrey Wright is like, Oh, East is in it now. Whoa, wait. And then he's making it. It's like, Supposedly, this movie is really good. Oh, that sounds good. I hope it works out for him. No, this movie is going to be really good. It's in Toronto. It's like, it's in Toronto. That's cool. And then it's like, The movie crushed in Toronto. This is going to be a thing. It's like, what? But it was just these emails and texts watching the arc of it. And then all of a sudden it was a thing.

That's how it's been for me, too, truly. I could not have anticipated any of this. We are in many ways the little movie that could. We have a small budget. We had a limited amount of time. I don't think anybody had any dreams beyond just getting the movie made. I certainly didn't. Because this was a year that I remember when we submitted it to Toronto, I had people saying, Listen, temporary expectations. This is like a competitive year. This year, every single huge director in the world decided to release the movie in 2023. So it's like, Scorsese, and Fincher and Noel and Greta Gerwig and Alexander Payne. It's like everybody in the world had a movie out this year.

It's like the 92 dream team of directors.

Truly. And so people were like, not even get into Toronto, so don't get your hopes up. And so when I found out that the movie just got into the festival, I was literally jumping up and down in my kitchen. I didn't even allow myself to dream beyond that, just because I was like, Well, this is a movie that we made for an incredibly low budget compared to all these other movies. And it's a movie that I love all the actors in it, but it's not like it's Leonardo DiCaprio or these massive movie stars. These are really, really great actors.

But it's all actors that people like. When I was watching the credits, because I watched it last night and I intentionally didn't want to read anything about it until I watched it. And the names were popping up. I'm like, Oh, oh. And then it got to Keith David and I just lost my mind because people know that's my guy.

He's like, Keith David is... I really wanted him. When we first started making the movie, there was a bunch of flashback scenes, and I wanted Keith David to play the father in the flashback scenes. And then the more we worked on the script, I was like, We don't need the flashbacks. And so I cut them all and I was bum because we weren't going to go to Keith David. But then we had this really, I don't want to spoil it, but we had this smaller role show up. And I was like, I would love to get Keith David in here somehow. Do you think you would consider this? And we sent it to him, and he called me the next day. He FaceTime to me and we just chatted for 15 minutes, and then he agreed to do it. And I was so delighted because I've been such a huge fan of his forever. I mean, I've been a fan of everybody in the movie forever, basically. I got to work with-.

I felt like you were involved with the casting.

Oh, yeah, deeply. Pretty probably. Oh, yeah. I got to work with people from Jeffrey Wright to Adam Brodie, like every single person. These are people whose work I've loved for a very long time.

Well, me as well. Yeah, man. Especially Adam Brodie. We did Mr. And Mrs. Smith, and we were talking about it. That was the year of Adam Brodie because it was year one of the OC. Yeah, dude. And then this is this massive Brad Pitt, Angelina movie. Jeffrey Wright, really fascinating career. I remember the first year I wrote for page two, Ali came out, and I went to The Junket. It's the only time I've ever done a Junket. I got 10 minutes with each person, and he's in that movie. I remember talking to him for 10 minutes, but always thinking like, Oh, this guy, he's always in stuff. He's always really good. But he never had a movie like this, right? Yeah. This happened sometimes. It happened to Richard Jenkins late in his career. It's like, Oh, I love that guy. But he wasn't the focal point of a movie that had a chance to really be seen by a lot of people. Exactly. What did you see about? Was that always in your head as you're writing this? Is you're adapting the book?

Dude, it was in my head as I was reading the book, not even write. While I was still reading the novel for the first time, I started, for whatever reason, picturing Jeffrey Wright and all the scenes. I was like, Oh, yeah, this is Jeffrey. This is Jeffrey. This is Jeffrey. And so he was the only person that I went to with the script when it was first done was Jeffrey. It was like, he's got to be the guy. And so I've just loved his work ever since I saw him in Basquiat when I was a kid. I was in high school. I saw that movie in high school, I think. I fell in love with it and fell in love with his performance in it. And I just watched everything he did since then. He was in Shaft. He was Peoples Hernandez and Shaft so good. He was in Angels in America so good. And then he was in Siriana, I believe, so good. He just started racking up these insane credits.

But.

He was never the center of anything. I never saw him as a lead except for in Basquiat. And. So as soon as I started reading the book, he just has this professorial quality about him. The character, Monk, is a college professor and novelist. I just feel like Jeffrey is the guy who you don't have trouble believing he's the smartest guy in the room. That's the gravitas that he has that he carries with him. And so it just felt like he's the perfect dude.

So when did you start adapting? I don't want to get into the nitty gritty of this because everyone's going to ask you this. But when did you start adapting the book and what was the process from your writing drafts of it to all of a sudden you're making the movie? How long did it take?

Three, it'll be... So I found the book in December of 2020 and the movie will be in theaters in December of 2023. So that's a three-year-.

-d ecember 2020, deep COVID.

I know. I was in a real bad place. We were all in a bad place, I think. But I had also had this... I was about to get a show on the air. I was very, very close to getting a television show on the air. And then at the last minute, they pulled the plug on. And that was September, October of 2020. So I was in a bad place creatively, emotionally. I just had no idea what I was going to do next. I just found this book through just happenstance and fell in love with it immediately and felt like, Oh, I just have my creative energies again. I really wanted to focus on making it. I wrote to the author. It's this guy named Percival Everett who has since become a really close friend of mine and Percival gave me the rights for free. He heard how passionate I was about it. Wow. Yeah. And he gave me the rights for free. I was like, Yeah, you get the rights for free for six months and go write a script. And if something comes of it, then you can pay me back then. So I just went and wrote the script on spec.

And we sold it. I finished it in April or May. And then we took it out to producers and we sold it to T Street and MRC in May of 2021. And then you're off. Yeah. And then it was just off to the races. We got Jeffrey attached, then we got Orion attached, and then we started shooting it in August of 2022.

And Issa was super late, right?

She was- Issa was the last person we cast. That was a hard role to cast. We were coming very close to when that part had to shoot. And so I think we had... It was like a period of four days between us sending the script to Issa and then Issa having to be on set. So she came in and- By the way, great.

Career move by her. This is exactly the type of part. She's not into it that much. What is she? Like four scenes? Yeah. I'll be in it for like 20 minutes, but she's really good in it. And she's a good actress.

And the scenes are integral, you know what I mean? I feel like that's the thing. We've gotten some great actors for these smaller parts. There's not a lot of screen time. But I think the reason we're able to get the Esas and the Keith Davids for these roles is because everybody said to me like, These are just good parts. They're not necessarily the most screen time, but they're good roles, and they've really lived in characters who are doing interesting things and saying interesting things, and it's an interesting movie. I just think that I was very fortunate to obtain the people we obtain. And I think the way that you did that is like, especially black actors, everybody is like, How did you assemble this tremendous cast? And it's like, Well, we talk all the time about how black actors aren't getting the roles that they deserve and feel underrepresented and underutilized in films. And so I think that when you actually give them real parts and even if it's not a lot of screen time, but these are real characters who are saying and thinking interesting things, then people are hungry for that. I think particularly black actors are hungry for that role.

You think this movie happens 10 years ago?

No, definitely not. I don't think this movie happens even five years ago. This is a movie that 98 % of the people who read this movie passed on it. You know what I mean? This was... This was a movie that the vast majority of people who looked into it were like, Oh, my God. I love the script. I had people tell me this is one of the best scripts that they've read in years. And then I'm like, Great, let's do it. And they're like, Too risky. We can't do this. And it's like-.

What did they think was risky? How did they explain that?

They never explain it, right? That's the most frustrating part about Hollywood is that they never tell you why they passed. They never tell you the truth about why they passed. I have a buddy who said that Hollywood is the only place where you can star from all the compliments, and that's a hundred % true. It's like, we're just like, Oh, my God. This is wonderful. And then they never tell you the truth. I'm an inexperienced director and they were worried that I was going to blow it. They don't think we have bankable movie stars, or they think that the material is too risky, or all three of those things. I have no idea that they would never tell me the truth about these things. They would just say, We just can't get it made here. I really wish I worked at a place where we could make this movie. We just can't get it made here. Fortunately, we had Orion, MGM step up and say, you know what? We're going to do this. We're going to trust you and take a risk. That's the thing that I knew that Hollywood was risk-averse. I didn't really understand how risk-averse Hollywood was until I took this out.

I had never had such a fusive praise about a project about the creative ever in anything that I've worked on. And then nobody willing to actually back up that praise with money. That was-.

The only thing that makes sense, just trying to think from their side, is that you hadn't directed a movie before, right? Exactly. It's not like they were giving you the X- Men sequel or something. Exactly. It was not the most expensive movie.

It's just weird. Dude, this is a drop in the bucket for them.

Yeah, but this is the movie that they would have made without even blinking in 1982, right? We always talk about that on The Rewatchables. These types of movies that got made basically all the way through the 90s. Dude, I watched so many. And they slowly stopped.

Yeah. I watched so many movies now that I'm like, This would never, ever get made. I bet you Shawshank Redemption doesn't get made today. If somebody took out Shawshank Redemption and was like, I want to make this movie that's not a franchise.

It's a non-rape Shawshank.

It's not a franchise. It's not a big, tense, superhero movie. I just think that people aren't really in the market for that thing, unfortunately.

I wonder if that's going to come back, though, because this has been such a fascinating movie year. And part of it is because we just had awesome directors and we had some really good lower budget movies come out. And just in general, I think there was a log jam with projects, and then they're all coming out now. But I can't keep up. I haven't even seen the Alexander Payne movie yet. He's one of my favorite directors.

Yeah, man. I think that what's happening, I think that what you're seeing is... I'm talking to a lot of people now who are like, who, like me, had had a really hard time getting TV shows made, had had a really... It was so hard to get TV shows made for a very long time. I have no idea how that scene is going to look on the other side of the strike. But I've talked to a lot of people who were just like, Oh, I just want to make independent film. Because even a small budget series, let's say it's three million an episode for 10 episodes, it's $30 million. Nobody's given a first time director $30 million. I mean, maybe somebody is, but certainly not me. I would not have gotten $30 million to make this movie. And so I just think that if you write a good script and you get some good actors, you have an easier time, I think, convincing people to give you money to make a movie than you do a TV show, just because a TV show is just such a bigger commitment to people. And so I know a bunch of people who said who are saying they're writing their own movies right now and trying to get funding for an independent film.

Yeah, but what's flipped the most, and I agree with everything you just said, is up until really this year, the money was in the TV shows. Oh, yeah. And it made more sense for somebody like you who's an up and coming writer, who's been on some stuff, who's ready to make the leap to the next thing. But you said you lost out on a TV show because your brain was, I got to do a TV show. That's where the most creative latitude is going. That's where I can make the most money. That's the safest bet. Exactly. Now it feels like as the TV stuff post-Strike, where we're going from 600 shows to maybe 200 shows, I think a lot of creativity is going to drift back to movies, which is super exciting for me because I missed that era.

Me too, man. And I think that to me is... I don't know. I feel like we're going to... It always waxes and wanes. I listen to that Quinn Tarantino interview where he's like, It's my decade. The '80s were fallow, and then the '90s came and you had all these amazing directors come at once. And then the early 2000s are fallow again. And then he just talks about the ups and downs in the industry. And so I'm hoping that the world of independent cinema is coming back because A, I want to make more movies. I certainly want to start directing more independent films. And B, I just think that it is allowing for some more creativity. I think that we've gotten to a place when I think that TV is stagnated as what the interesting things. Tv used to be... It's really crazy because I think that I always say if you talk to TV executives and you ask them like, What's on your Mount Rushmore of TV shows? They're all going to say basically the same thing. They're going to say Sopranos, they're going to say Breaking Bad, Mad Men, these kinds of The Wire.

And the thing that I tell people is that go to those IMDb pages for the pilots and name a single famous person involved with any of those projects, like superstars. Nobody knew who James Gandolfini was. James Grandolfini was one of the heavies in Get Shorty. Yeah, true romance. Yeah, exactly. That was his biggest credit. And all of a sudden, he was born to play Tony Sopranos. He was perfect for that part. Nobody knew who Elizabeth Moss was. These are not like BOLD-based games when they start these shows. And TV was a place that made actors, made people's careers. And now it's like, if you wanted to make The Sopranos nowadays, they'd be like, Okay, well, we need Robert De Niro to play Uncle Junior, and we need Scorsese to direct the pilot, and it would just be worse for it. I personally think that you'd have a worse product because it would be like, it would be so dedicated to getting the most famous people involved, and it wouldn't be dedicated to making the best TV show possible. And I think that that's really unfortunate. And I think that independent film, you're seeing people take more risks in that way, which is crazy because it seems like the whole thing has been inverted.

That used to be like that experimental, like let's find interesting actors and give them good roles used to happen in TV, and now it's happening in film more often.

Yeah. No shots at Apple, but this is the Apple strategy, right? Like the morning show. Get the most famous actors possible, spend a lot of money, put them on a show, and then when you go to Apple TV, it's a picture of this really famous cast that you recognize. If you go back, we did advanced metrics for the TV shows, like you mentioned, The Greatest Shows. It's always like one creator, maybe two, but never more than two. The person had a singular vision, and then he cast people that we didn't really have a lot of baggage or history with. And it's like, Edie Falco, I knew her on Oz. Other than that, I don't remember she was in Copland for 10 seconds.

Exactly. Exactly.

So yeah, maybe that'll come back, but I doubt it because Hollywood is pretty consistently-.

It'll come back, but it'll come back in 10 years. It'll come back when all the cool, interesting people have been drummed out of TV because they can't get anything made. And so then TV becomes stagnant. And then everybody- The TV comes back. Yeah, exactly. The TV comes back. It's cyclical. It's always cyclical.

Well, part of the problem with TV is because they try to pad the episodes. And this has happened, especially in documentaries. They pad the episodes to make more money. And all that does is water down. You go back to The Sopranos where there was 13 episodes. It was a little fat, right? Yeah. But they also were competing against network shows that were 22 episodes and 25 episodes. They felt like they had more Exactly. We found a sweet spot the last 10 years, it felt like.

Yeah. And I think that yes to all of that. And I think that hopefully we're realizing now that... I think that now you're seeing six and eight-episode seasons of TV. Some people are doing the British model where it's like, we don't need- Fleabag. Exactly. We don't need 24 episodes. We need six to eight-episode seasons. Let's just tell the story that we need to tell and move on. We don't need to tell the story anymore. I'm hoping that one of the things that comes out on the other end of the strike, as you said, is like going from 600 shows to maybe 200 shows and giving audiences quality, because that's another thing that I think has gone unspoken in some of these conversations is like a lot of this stuff is made with a disdain for the audience. It is truly just like we are just feeding the content. This is just like the content trough and we're inviting you guys to the slot and the content trough. They don't actually care. That's just like pumping out shows as quickly as possible. It's like an arms race. The streamers have turned into like, Let's not make the best shows.

Let's make the most TV. And that is what people... And then people are going to binge it over the course of a weekend, and then they're not going to think about it ever again. But we'll get the numbers up. I think that hopefully that model is going away and like that. Let's not make as many shows. Let's make a limited number of shows, but let's make them really good. I think that hopefully that's going to be one of the things that comes out on the other end of The Strikes.

Yeah. You could go into a streamer right now and be like, 10 episodes, the house is haunted, interracial couple, weird shit happens and they have two adopted kids that don't look like them either. Exactly. And weird shit is going to happen. But I need 10 episodes. Exactly.

Exactly.

Exactly. Go backwards because it's so funny. All the people from the first blog era, which I think the blog era starts like '07. You're on the internet in the early 2010s. Yeah. And all these bloggers, they're churning out, they're getting burned out. But some of them, they decide they want to write scripts. In some cases, even tried. And you were the one that made it. And now you're the one that this whole group of whoever would point to be like, Well, I want to be like Cord or it worked out for Cord. But it didn't work out for most people. What was different about you and your approach as you look back? Not to brag, but what do you think made your path different than other people?

I think a lot of it is luck. I don't like when people talk about their success without talking about luck because luck is a huge part of success in my mind. That is true. One of the things that I got lucky on, it is incredibly hard to break into the industry. The number one question that people ask me that I never have an answer to is like, How do you get somebody important to read your script? And that's just like, Dude, I have no clue. That is an impossible question. There is so many roadblocks and obstacles and gatekeepers into this industry that it sometimes feels impenetrable on the outside. My first stroke of luck was I was working at Gocker. And this guy reached out to me one day and just said, Hey, Mike O'Malley, Boston. You know Mike O'Malley? Of course, I do. Yeah, you're a guy.

You know Mike O'Malley.

Yeah, I love Mike O'Malley. Yeah. So Mike O'Malley reached out to me. He had seen some of my stuff on Gocker, and he just reached out and said, Hey, do you want to work on this TV show that I'm creating? And so he was creating this show called Survivors Remorse that was based loosely on LeBron James's life. And so he asked me to come be in the writer's room of that show. And so I had never written a TV show before, and he was like, Look, this may be a disaster. You may hate it. You may be bad at it, but you may love it. And let's take a risk on each other and you can come join the team. And I'll take a risk on you if you take a risk on me.

So you moved LA for this?

You did, right? I was already living in LA. I was living in LA for Docker. And so I was like, cool. And so he offered me the job on a Friday. Officially, I had to start work on a Monday. So I had to call my boss and say, Hey, man, I'm sorry to do this to you, but I'm going to give you 48 hours notice and then I'm going to leave. And so he very graciously said that that was okay, and we parted ways. And I went to work on his show. And so that.

To me was like- I remember hearing about this anecdotally, by the way, where it's like, Kord quit blogging. He's going to write for a TV show that's loosely based on LeBron James. What? Yeah, exactly. Wait, what's happening? And then it worked out.

And that was January of 2014. So it was like, I think that that's another thing. It was like, I got lucky that Michael Malley had seen some of my stuff and asked me to write for the show, despite the fact that I'd never written for a TV show before.

But your stuff was also good, so you.

Get credit for that. Thanks. Yeah. And then the second stroke of luck was, I think, timing, just being 2014, it was still a time when things were going well in blogging and internet media was still good. And so a lot of people, I think, weren't necessarily trying to get out of the industry at that point because it was like, Oh. When I left Gawker, I was like, Look, if this is terrible, I'll just come back. I was like, Gawker is going to be around forever. So if I don't do this show and I don't like it, I'll just come back to Gawker. And I was like, The internet media is going to be around forever. People think that I left because I was like, I see the writing on the wall and this isn't going to be here anymore. But that is not true. I did not see the writing on the wall. I thought everything was going to be fine forever. And so I just went just because I wanted to try something new. But I think that I left at a time when people weren't necessarily looking for ways out of the industry.

I think that people were like, Oh, I'm comfortable. I'm going to be blogging forever. I think that I was a little ahead of the curve in that way. And then once I just was in it, I was just in it. The one thing that I actually do think that I did, the one decision that I actually made, I think, that really helped shape what my career became was I was really picky with the jobs that I took after that. I don't want to just rush into anything because they're going to offer me a bunch of money or because there's like, celebrities involved. I just chose work that I felt like was... I felt like shows that were trying to take swings and do something that other people weren't doing. I felt like even if it was the good place, it's likelike, you're making a sitcom about ethical philosophy and death and what it means to be in the afterlife. Okay, that sounds interesting. Like, succession, you're making a dark comedy about the Murdoch family. Okay, that sounds cool. And Watchmen is like crazy. I was working on stuff that just felt like they were taking huge swings because the thing that I felt was that that was how you broke through the noise.

Because I had started at the time when it really was starting to become an arms race. It's like more, more, more, more. And so I always felt that one of the ways to make sure what you were making broke through was like, at least it's going to be a big swing. And it's better to... It's better to be on a big grand failure than a mediocre middling tepid success. I think that that is the thing that I wanted to do. So I ended up working on a series of shows that were able to break through and were able to be part of the conversation in a way that other shows weren't. And so that is something that I do feel like, again, that's luck, right? Taking those jobs is luck. But I think that I chose the right jobs to take. I think that, for instance, the way that I got the watchmen job was I went to a dinner party at Mike Schurz's house one night, and I ended up sitting next to Damon Lindelof. And I was like talking his head off because the leftovers had just ended. And I was obsessed with the leftovers.

The series finale, the leftovers had happened three weeks before. And so I was just talking to Damon forever. I was like, Dude, the leftovers is amazing. And just chatting him up. And then he emailed me a month later. I was like, Hey, do you want to work on the show called The Watchmen? I just got that thanks to sitting next to Damon at the dinner party. So there's the luck. But then not luck is that when Damon comes to me and has this crazy idea, and I'm like, Okay, you know what? I'm down with that. That sounds interesting. And so that's the part that I think I made that decision. But it's always equal combinations of hard work and dumb luck.

Well, and also you did a good job of aligning with people who you could learn stuff from.

Oh, absolutely. Damon Lindelov and Mike, sure are my two biggest mentors in this industry. I will work for those guys whenever they asked me to work for them. And they were like, when I wrote this movie script, they were the first two guys that I sent the script to give me notes on it. So I'm always indebted to them.

I don't know how to ask this question. You are a good director, but how did you know you were going to be a good director? Is it one of those things where you just don't know until it's actually happening? Because ultimately, if you've never done something, you don't totally know how it's going to play out. But you clearly are good at directing. But sometimes you don't know it. But you don't know that until you do it. Yeah. How did you know that you would be good at it? You don't know until you do it.

I didn't, right? It's like you just got to do it. I didn't know that I'd be good at it. I thought that I had good ideas, but it could have been a disaster. It's one of those things where you just have to trust your instincts. How did you know you'd be a good podcaster? You probably didn't know it until.

You did it. I was terrible for two years. But the other way you could have done is you could have gotten a director, right? And you could have been like, I'm writing this. Let me put this in the calm hands of somebody else. But you're like, Fuck it, I'm directing this.

Yeah. No, I just felt... Here's what gave me the courage to direct this was that... The first person who gave me the idea that maybe I should direct is a disease and sorry. I was working on season two, A Master of None. And we were talking... Aziz was like, Have you ever thought about directing? Because he was directing a few of the episodes of that season. I said, No, I didn't go to film school. I don't know anything about lenses or cameras or anything, so it doesn't seem right for me. And he was like, Dude. He's like, I went to for business school. And he was like, Last year I got nominated for a Golden Globe for directing. He was like, It's not like I went to film school. He said, All you have to have is a vision in your mind and then be able to articulate that vision to the people that you hire to be around you. And so he planted the seed in like 20, that was like 2016. And then I found this book in 2020. And the reason that I finally had the courage to direct was that when I read the book and then I wrote the script, I was like, I understand this material as well, if not better than anybody else in the whole world.

I know these characters. I know the story in such a deep way that even if I don't know anything about lighting or cameras, I know the story that I want to tell, and I'll use that as my roadmap. And so I felt like even if I don't know this other shit, I know the story that I'm going to tell, and that can be my guide when I make all these other decisions that I don't know about it. So to me, that was the key. The reason I hadn't... I knew that I wanted to direct for four years before I found this, but I didn't really leap at anything because I didn't feel that passionate about anything. And I knew that if I went there and didn't feel passionately about the story and the characters and didn't know the other stuff, then I'd be really out of my depth and underwater and like, I don't care about these people. I don't care about the story. And so that's going to make the story horrible. And I think that... You can see, really. I think that you can see a lot of movies and TV shows where it's just like you can tell.

I think we all can tell when nobody's passionate about something. You watch a movie, you're just like, Nobody actually cares. Everybody who is coming to set every day was just there to cash a check. They were not there because they believed in what they were doing. And I felt like I was worried that if I took something on, you could be able to tell that. And this was the first thing that I found like.

Oh.

Every day that I go to set, I will be deeply passionate about the story that we're trying to tell. I think that helped guide our hands a little bit.

I feel like, Dirk Degas talking to Amber Waves and Boogie nights about like, Kord, you're like a director now. It's a.

Real movie, Jack.

It's a real movie.

It's a real movie, Jack.

I don't want to step on the movie too much because I really want people to watch this without worrying that we're going to spoil the movie. But we should talk about the conceit of the movie, which is just brilliant and the way you flip some stuff. Thanks. You talk because I'm afraid to say too much because I don't want to spoil it. But there's a specific angle of this movie that I think is going to hit close to home to some people. Oh, definitely. In the right ways and maybe the wrong ways, too. But how do you think Hollywood is going to react to this? Explain the angle.

So the premise of the film is that Jeffrey Wright plays this college professor slash novelist named Monk, and he specializes in contemporary retellings of classical Greek literature. And people say your books are well-written, but they're academic and dense, and they always say, Why are you not writing about Black stories? That's what people want to read from you. You're a black American. Write about black stories. Write about the inner city, write about drugs, and write about slavery. And he's like, I like what I write. I think that my stories are universal. These are black stories because I'm black, and I'm telling them, Why do you want me to do all this other stuff? And everybody's like, Well, suit yourself. One day in this fit of rage, he goes home and he writes this deeply stereotypical book full of a lot of tropes and ridiculous stereotypes about the black community. And he writes it as a prank intending to humiliate the publishers and show them the garbage that they keep soliciting from black writers. And he sends it out under a pseudonym, and it becomes a huge best seller. It's like by far the most successful book he's ever published.

It's like he's getting offered all this money, he's getting offered movie deals and this insane book deal. And there's stuff going on in his personal life that I won't spoil that requires him to need a lot of money fast. And so the rest of the story is him existing between these two worlds of needing the money that this successful book is providing, but also deeply resenting that this book is becoming as big of a success as it is.

And he's trying to sabotage the book. Yeah. And it's actually working in his favor. Like he tries to sabotage with the title, and none of it matters. It just becomes a snowball down the mountain.

Exactly. It's like any great story about a lie. It's like the lie becomes bigger and bigger and bigger until the person can't wrap their arms around it anymore and you see what happens.

How much of this was reflected in stuff that either you've been offered or just whatever since 2017?

So much, man. Yeah. Three months before I found this book, I got a note from an executive that I needed to make a character blacker in my script. And it was like, How this guy has to be blacker. And that note came through an emissary. I came to the emissary, I was like, Listen, I will indulge that if this person gets on a phone with me or sits down with me face to face and tells me exactly what blacker means. What does it mean to make a character blacker? I'll talk to them if they sit down and talk to me about that. And that no went away, right? Because to have that conversation, they would probably have to commit a civil rights violation. They're not going to do it. But that stuff happens. I had a friend recently who, this was a couple of years ago, she's a black female journalist and she's getting into film and television. And she came to LA for some meetings. She sat down with one production company and they were like, What stuff are you interested in writing? And she said, I'm a child of the 90s. I'd really like to write an erotic thriller.

She said, I'd like to write a romcom. I think that those have fallen by the wayside. And they said, Okay, interesting. Give us some time and we'll get back to you later. And so she left her office and they called her like three or four hours later that day. And they said, We've got the perfect project for you, I think. It's called Blind Tom. And it's about a blind slave who, thanks to a wealthy white benefactor, becomes a piano prodigy and becomes this world-class piano player despite the fact that he's a blind slave. And it's like, Oh, okay. That doesn't sound.

Very- That sounded like an idea from your movie.

I know. Exactly. I could have put it in the film and it would have been right in place. It is something that... Like I said, this was two and three years ago. This was not 40 years ago. This was during COVID. And so.

The.

Reality of things... Look, things aren't as bad as they were in the '80s and '90s and the '60s and '70s. Obviously, things are getting better, but things are still pretty pretty messed up. And that's the thing. It's not just black people. I talked to Latino friends who were like, Why does every story set in Mexico have to be about a drug cartel and have that weird, orangey, brown tint on every shot? It's like, Mexico has been in a dust storm for 100 years. These are things that a lot of people are feeling, not just people, not just black people. Hollywood still.

Has.

A very limited perspective on what people's lives look like and the stories that they want to tell often don't contain the complexity and nuance of these people's real lives. And I think people get frustrated by that.

It's funny. When did Hollywood Shuffle come out? That was probably 35 years ago, right? Eighty-seven. Eighty-seven, yeah. Yeah, it's 36 years ago. And it's hidden... It's weird, in the rewatchables, we do like, What movie would you watch as a double feature? That would be an interesting double feature of your movie, right?

Fully. I think that I'm so influenced by that movie. That, to me, is one of the all-time classics for me. And also, I think that that movie just really rewired my brain when I saw it. I was thinking about this thing recently that when you're a kid... I saw that movie probably when I was nine or 10. And nine or 10 is right in that perfect age where you're learning about the founding of the country and you're learning about slavery and civil rights and stuff. And I was thinking that the media that they use to teach you that stuff is basically horror movies. I remember watching Mississippi Burning and that movie, terrifying. It was like I was watching Nightmare on Elm Street. It's just so fucking scary. And that is a lot of the media that you can assume. It's just these stories of violence and and people killing people. And all of a sudden, I watched this movie, Hollywood Shuffle, and it was like, Oh, these guys are talking about racism, but they're laughing every scene. And they're making jokes about it. And they're finding ways to not be miserable, even in the circumstances that they're in.

They're finding ways to laugh and still find joy in the world. And I was like, Oh. And that was a radical revelation to me. I certainly didn't know what satire... I didn't know the word satire back then, probably, but I understood what that movie did to me and what that movie felt like. And it was like, Oh, there's more than one way to skin a cat here. The only way to terrifying people and making people feel guilty or making people feel like they should pity people, there's more than one way to build empathy. And another way to build empathy is to make people laugh. It's a more inviting way sometimes to let people into what you're thinking. There's this Oscar Wilde quote that I read recently, and he said, If you want to tell the truth to people, you better make them laugh, or otherwise, they'll kill you. I think that that holds true a lot for media, at least for me. And I've loved satire ever since I saw that movie.

Well, this seems like a good time to mention your next movie that you've been working on, an autobiography of Tommy Alter, the most connected person in America. I know.

Truly. We should do a doc on Tommy. I still don't know if I know Tommy's real age. That's something that maybe we could figure.

Out how old Tommy is. It's somewhere between 25 and 54.

Exactly. It's like the best kept secret in Hollywood.

Wait, you got to tell one of the reasons we've been talking about this forever your entourage pitch, which I don't think you've ever told on a podcast. It's one of the most important stories ever.

I haven't told it anywhere, really, publicly.

Okay, so here we go. This is Cord's entourage story. Take the floor.

Okay. So in this age of rebutes, I was like, We're rebuilding all this stuff that doesn't necessarily need to be reboot. It's like you're only rebuilding it. I think that part of my journalism brain is that I carry with me in into film and television is like, Why now? Why should this story be told now? Why in 2023, out of the millions of stories that you could be telling, why should this one exist in the present day? And I think that a lot of these rebutes, the frustrating thing about them is that there is no answer to that question. The only answer to that question is like, Well, this was popular in the past. Now we're trying to squeeze every dollar out of this piece of IP that we can't. But so entourage, I was like, there's a reason for this to exist. The reason for this to exist in the present day is because it's really funny to look at that show in the context of how much the world has changed versus when it was on the air. How radically different Hollywood is in the world and culture is. And so I have this pitch for entourage where it starts with Ari walking into his new agency, which he's founded with Lloyd, his old assistant.

And so Ari and Lloyd have founded this massive new agency in Hollywood. And Ari comes in, swaggers in one day, like the way that Ari swaggers. And Lloyd comes up to me. He's like, Look, I got something to tell you. And he's like, No, I don't know. He's typically dismissive of Lloyd and says something racist and homophobic to Lloyd. And he's like, I can't talk now. I got a call with Aaron Sorkin at 09:00 AM. I'm sorry, I can't deal with it right now. And Lloyd's like, I really have something new important to tell you. He's like, It's got to wait. And just then, Ari's assistant goes, Ari, phone call. He's like, There he is right now. And he swaggers into his office and he picks up the phone. He goes, Hey, Aaron, what's going on, brother? And the voice on the other end of the phone goes, Oh, this isn't Aaron. This is Ronan Farah. I'm calling from the New York. I've got some questions for you. Ari goes, What?

And he's like, Yeah, I've got some questions for you about your career and some things that people have said. And so it starts, and Ari Gold is getting me too. Is it.

Ronan Farrow playing himself?

Yeah, it's Ronan Farrow playing himself. And he essentially starts asking Ari about all these things that we've seen Ari actually do. He's like, Is this true? This is what we find out Lloyd was trying to tell Ari. He's like, Is it true that you said this to your assistant? Is it true that you said this to your assistant? Is it true that you said this about Carmen Electra? Is it true that you said... Just all of the stuff that we've seen happen in the show is coming to haunt Ari. So Ari is getting me too. That's his story. E is now no longer really representing actors. He's representing TikTok influencers. So he's representing a bunch of teenage boys who beat the shit out of him when he goes to their hype houses and stuff, and they're constantly playing prank on him, and they treat him like shit. But he's got to deal with it because that's where all the money is now. And then drama is no longer an actor. Drama has a Trump podcast, a super mega podcast. And he's like, Dude. I'm making way more money doing this than I ever was as an actor.

And he's like, Selling shitty supplements on his website. And he's just like, full conservative mega podcast.

Turtle.

Is dead of a fentanyl overdose, but his ghost appears in every episode. Every episode, they talk to Turtle's Ghost, so he's still with the boys. But there's a shrine to him in drama's podcast studio, and he's got face tattoos right now. And his ghost comes back every episode like Obi-Wan or something. And then Vinny is trying to play Bernie in this Ava du Verne, Bernie Getz limited series that's happening on Netflix. And so he's finally going to have a serious role. And so Ava comes up to him and she's like, Listen, Vinny, I really like you for the part, but man, I can't... This Ari stuff is tainting everybody. So you keep Ari as your agent, I can't have you on the show if you're still with Ari. So it's like a three to four-episode-limited series, limited reboot, where we just see these guys. And the story that I have built is like, it becomes like Johnny drama's story is like his supplements start making people go blind and he's got to do this. It's like Because.

They.

Jerk. Because he started getting them from some shitty factory somewhere. There was no quality control. And so these bone or pills that he's selling make people go blind. And it's like, all of a sudden, he's got to figure out how to deal with that. But the finalthe final storyline is whether or not Vinny is going to fire Ari. I'll just tell you because this is never going to see the light of day. I've already tried to pitch this to people, and they have zero interest in even talking about it. The powers at be have zero interest in rebooting entourage. To me, it was surprising. I thought it would be very funny. But the last shot is Vinny calling.

Ari.

To tell him that he's firing him. He's like, I'm sorry. He's his last client. Everybody else has jumped ship. And he's like, Vinny, we've been through so much together. Please, please. And Vinny is like, I'm sorry, man. I can't do it. And so he's like, It's over. And Vinny hangs up. And so Ari is standing there in his super big office on Wilshire. And he gets furious and he throws his chair through the window of his office. And he's just standing there letting the breeze hit him. And he's standing there thinking. And he's so frustrated in his red-faced and his wife has left him now and his empire's crumbling. And as the breeze is hitting his face, you just see him, he just runs and leaps out the wood, does a swan dive out of the window and just lands on his back in the middle of Wilshire Boulevard. And I have this shot as the blood starts puddling around him, this camera does a slow pull-up, and it just goes, Oh, yeah.

Oh.

Yeah. As we're looking at Ari's bloody body in the middle of Wilshire, Oh, yeah. And then that's the credits and that's the end.

It would be so good. Oh, my God. I'm fucking dying. It would be so good.

It would be so funny and so good. And it is a reboot that deserves to because I think that there's a reason. And it would be really funny. And it would be just all about how much this has changed this show in a different context. What does it look like? And yeah, it's going nowhere. I've tried to get in the room at HBO. They won't listen, but I'm happy to say it here. I'm really happy you've given me a platform to talk about this because it is one of my favorite ideas that I've come up with. I think it would be great.

I think it's the best idea I've heard in the last three or four years, especially the ending is the best part. And if you do it as a limited edition series, each episode could end with every out to our episode ended where they were just looking out into LA or looking out off a cliff or looking out onto whatever. You could have the three of them looking out. But then Turtle's Ghost is levitating next to them also looking out.

Yeah, Turtle's Ghost is like on the horizon like Mufasa in Lionkick. He's just like, Yeah, boys.

What's up? Because you have the the end of the second to last episode. You have Vince, they say you have to fire Ari, and he's looking out by himself, right? He's looking out down the hills. Turtle's Ghost is just lingering in a smoky bag.

Hitting a bomb. Turtle's Ghost is smoking a bomb.

But everybody is still... We use all the actors, right, for this? Oh, 100 %. Jerry Ferrar is playing Turtle's Ghost.

100 %. No, this is like we get the band back together.

I'm not giving up on this. Maybe this being on the podcast will help get some momentum.

You've got a wide reach. If the fans out there love it, let's bring it back. I would love to. I would love to.

No idea makes me laugh harder. All right, Kord, when is the movie? When can we see it in the theaters?

If you're in New York, Los Angeles, or Austin, Texas, you can see it in the theaters already, basically. But it officially comes out December 15, and then it'll go wider on December 22, and then it will be fully wide in the United States on January fifth. And then it goes to Europe, the UK, on February fifth, I believe.

And then after that, it's The Entourage Reboot and the Tommy Alter documentary as the next two projects. Exactly. Because you'll be able to call your shots. The movie's great. I love that. I was really proud of you that you pulled it off- Thank you so much, brother. -these weird COVID times.

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.

Yeah, it's been great to watch the whole Ascent. So congrats, man.

Thank you, brother. I really appreciate. Oh, and by the way, last thing that I need to say is one of the producers of the film is named Ben Lecler. He's a big Boston guy. He's from Situate, Massachusetts. I would be where we shot. We shot the beach scenes in the film or in Situate. I would be remiss if I did not shout him out. He's a big fan of yours. And he told me that he would be upset if I did not mention that. So he loves Boston. He loves you. He just wanted to say hello.

You know what's funny? I forgot to ask you where you shot that, but I was going to guess Situate or Duxbury. Yeah, he's from Situate. I just had that vibe, but I wasn't sure which one. There you go. Well, good to hear from him. Good to see you. Congrats on everything.

You too, brother. Thank you so much.

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Core Jefferson. Hope you get that entourage reboot going. Thanks to Norphingiadi. Thanks, Codcrain, for producing. Thanks to Steve Cerudy as well. I'll see you with The Cuz on Sunday. Enjoy the weekend. Must be 21-plus and President Selects states, Fando is offering online sports way during Kansas, under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino, LLC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800 gambler or visit fandler. Com/rg in Colorado, Iowa, Kentucky, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, and Virginia. You can call 1-800 next step or text next step to 5-3-3-4-2 in Arizona. Call 1-800-7-89-777 or visit ccpg. Org/chat in Connecticut. 1-800, 9 with it in Indiana. 1-800, 5-2-2-4-7-00 or visit Ksgamblinghelp. Com in Kansas. 1877-770 stop in Louisiana. Mdgamblinghelp. Org in Maryland. 1-800, gambler. Net in West Virginia or 1-800-5-2-2-4-7-00 in Wyoming. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelp. Linema. Org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-8-7-7-8, Hope N-Y or text Hope N-Y in New York.