Coming up, 80 minutes of NBA talk with Doc Rivers, and it's really good. Next. We're also brought to you by the Ringer podcast network, where we put up a new Rewatchables on Monday night. We did The Pelican Brief, another 1993 movie, one of the great Rewatchable years of all time. I don't know what the number one Rewatchable year ever is, but it is definitely at least in the final four. That movie came out 30 years ago. Julie Roberts, Denzel, Washington. We broke all of it down. Speaking of Julia, Sean had her on his big picture podcast this week because she has that new Netflix movie out, so you can check that out. And we also dropped all the tickets for the Rewatchables cold weather tour. The week of January 29th, we are going to Chicago and Washington and Philly in New York. We are doing The Fugitive in Chicago. We are doing Forest Gump in DC. We are doing, I think, Creed in Philly. And then last but not least, Rounders in New York City. When we first did Rounders, it was just me and fantasy, but we're going to do it again with Chris Ryan and with Van Leythen.

And four days and five nights, it seems like there's no tickets left. So if you tried to get tickets and you couldn't pull it off, I'm sorry, we're going to have to come back. But can't wait for this. It'll be really fun. It's going to be grueling. Four live shows in five nights. I'm not Taylor Swift. Maybe I'm going to have to do the Taylor Swift cardio routine to get ready to do three, four hours in the morning and change how I eat. Can't wait to go out and do this in the theaters and see everybody. It's going to be super duper fun. And we'll have a new Rewatchables next week as well. I'm going to tell you what next week says. We're doing National Lampoons Christmas vacation. That's going to be on Monday because we promised, because we did vacation with Chevy Chase earlier in the year. And we said, When it gets to mid-December, we're doing National Lampoons Christmas vacation, and that's what we're doing. You know what else we're doing? We're going to talk to NBA with Doc Rivers. I think this is our third time this season. I just have the most fun doing this with Doc.

I remember what I was doing countdown that first year, and it was me, and Magic, and Wilbon, and Jaylen. And we would just have Magic Johnson trapped in a room for eight hours. We would have the pregame meeting. We do the pregame show. And then we would go in this room where all these TVs were, and we would watch all the games. And we just had Magic who was this incredible resource and had played in all these big games and knew all these different people. And I always sat next to him, and I would just fire questions at him. And it was like we were doing a six-hour podcast. We'd pop back out, do half-time. We'd pop out and do the things between the two games. And it was just so much fun to talk to somebody like that twice a week, three times a week. I feel like it's the same with Doc comes on the pot, even though it's like these little 80-minute bursts, somebody that's coach for the last 20 years and played for 13, 14 years. And it's just the best to talk to them about hoops. So that's what we're going to do.

First, our friends from... They have a new 2024 tour, they announced. You can go get tickets right now on their website. Projob.

All right.

Our friend, Doc Rivers, is here. He was just in Vegas for the in-season tournament, sitting in Courtside, broadcasting games, watching stuff. What was the highlight?

I think the highlight was the tournament in a crazy way and how it was played out, the intensity. It was clear. Bill, we didn't know what was going to happen with the tournament. I think we all... I questioned it a little bit. I was happy that it was happening. But the intensity that the four teams came with and played with, the pressure, there was real pressure on teams. The only team that was relaxed and you would think it would be so was the Lakers. Lebron approached the whole thing, the whole tournament in the right way. I love Kevin Durant's comment after they lost. He's like, I don't know anything if I like this or not, but I loved it once it's over and I'm pissed that I'm not in it. So I think that stood out. I thought LeBron stood out and his plate throughout. I thought his leadership was absolutely amazing throughout. And the Lakers are pretty good. That's what I think came out of this.

Yeah, I had a vote and it was the MVP. Davis had such a great game and he had a couple of other good games and you're supposed to vote for the collection of games. But I still voted for LeBron because he cared so much about the tournament that I think his team responded to that. They're like, Oh, this is one of the greatest sports ever, and he gives a shit about this. So I give a shit because he gives a shit. And that's why I voted for him.

That's why I asked at the end of the telecast. I said, Are we voting for this game or are we voting for the whole tournament? And they said, Well, we're voting for the whole tournament. I said, Well, then the MVP is easy. If you're voting for one game, it would have been AD.

Yeah, I was going to ask you because I always do this circle thing where I think how many teams can actually win the NBA title? And that circle is either six, seven, or eight. And sometimes teams can move in or out. I never took the Lakers out of the circle, even when they were 11-9 after 20 games. It's like, What's going on? Are they going to have to make trades? I was like, They're fine. I'm not worried about them at all because of the size, because of the way LeBron responds at big games. They'll figure out the fringe pieces. But Reeves, who I thought was good in that tournament and just in general, the way that they're now figuring out, Oh, this is our second ball handle. So we don't have to rely on LeBron all the time. It was all stuff they were... You knew they were going to figure out the first 20 games. So I always had them in the inner circle. Were you ever worried about them in those first 20?

Not really. And I did a bunch of their games. I think I've done more Laker games, and I have to say I'm happy about that since I live in LA. It's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing. I just thought they needed to figure out their rotations, and I didn't think they'd be able to do that until everybody's healthy. Vanderbilt is back now, and he's going to make another difference for them. Right. They changed the starting lineup. They put Reeves on the bench, which was a very smart move by Darvin ham. They had too many ball handlers in the starting lineup. But Diangelo, he wants to handle the ball. Lebron handles the ball, Reeves handles the ball. Whenever you have a big on your team and you throw in the ball, that becomes, in essence, the ball stopper, right? Now you have four guys. I thought what Darvin did was put the Reeves on the bench. Now, the only thing you have to figure out is, Reeves and LeBron's numbers together are unbelievable as far as plus or minus. They were last year, they are again this year. You can see Darvin figuring out, Okay, I'm still going to bring them off the bench.

I'm going to take LeBron out, but I'm going to try to put them back in whenever Reeves is on the floor. And then the last part of that is they finished games with Reeves on the floor. They put the right guy on the bench, too. I don't think the Angelo could have handled it as well. And so it's worked out for him.

As a guy who grew old in the NBA and started to physically try to hold on there for the last couple of years, do you watch LeBron? I know I was like, You're 21. I can't believe it. But do you watch somebody with this many miles on him and you're just stupidified by it? He's played almost 70,000 minutes now.

Yeah. Listen, I played 13 years. I should have played 12. Pop talked me into that 13th year to this day, I still tell them, You're the reason I walk the way I walk. There were several games built my last year. One of them involved Allen Huston, which I just… I woke up old one morning, and that's what happens. That's what amazes me. Lebron, he didn't have a lot of old nights. He has a couple where you can see he's tired. But athleticall, he has no zero old nights. I just woke up old one night, one game, and I'm on the floor about four minutes, I call the time-out. With the Spurs, I call the time-out. I say, Hey, I'm done for the day. You got to take me out. I have no legs. Then the other one, I told Jason Gidness recently, I think it was his rookie year, and he was coming at me at a fast break, Bill. I knew as the speed, I couldn't get out of his weight, let alone guard him. I was just trying to get out of his weight. I was thinking, It's time for me to get off this floor.

The Bryan is still the best athlete on the floor, at least for the play in, which tells me he can do it doing the finals and doing the run for the finals. He had the most energy of anyone on the floor. He played harder than everyone on the floor. It's just amazing. I know he puts a lot into his body. Hes hours. I had a great talk with AD, one of the mornings off. I said, What are you see in LeBron? He said, Coach, I've been around players all my life. I've never seen someone work so hard and someone put the hours in. He said, I'm not talking about doing the season. I'm talking about doing the off-season. I mean, he just works. And that's why he's where he's at.

I mean, that's basically the Tom braided story, too, right? There's no way a quarterback will be able to play in his mid-40s, but it was 365 days a year for him. And it seems like it's the same with LeBron. It's just a routine of, I'm just putting in these three-hour sections twice a day. I'm going to eat the perfect things every day. And just every single decision I make is to try to keep going, which is what braided did.

As LeBron told me, other than wine, I put nothing bad in my body. Right. And AD says he carries bags around of different foods. And he said it's down to timing. There are certain times that he has to eat, there are certain times that he can't eat. He said it's just incredible to watch.

Yeah, in your era, Larry Bird would stop drinking beer right before the playoffs, and that was his big concession to his body, right? He's like, I'm not going to drink Milderlat for two months. I'm taking this seriously now.

You know, Bill, in my era, they didn't have a water-cooler after the game. The cooler had beers in it. You couldn't find the water anywhere after the game. You had to go look for water. It was all beer. And you know what's interesting also? It's just the nutrition. Before that famous game seven that the… Dominique Wilkins, Larebert game. Yeah. Somehow room service was not delivered in Boston.

I can't.

Believe that. I'm shocked. We're staying at the Marriott and no room service with no players. Remember, it was a 12 o'clock game. We go over to the garden, we're starving and pissed because there's no food. Remember there was a duck and donuts across? I think it's still in the garden.

Still there.

Yeah, our trainer sent the ball boys over and they got donuts, hot dogs. And that's what we ate right before game seven. And listen, maybe I should have eaten it all the time. I played great.

I was going to say that was one of the best games of your career. You got a standing ovation when you fell out. I was at that game. Yeah.

Wow, that's a good memory. I had a hell of a series. Yeah, you were awesome back then. I played well. But yeah, so nutrition is a little different back then.

That's funny. Well, we were talking about on Thursday's podcast about you have LeBron on the one end who's just defying everything. And so much of it has to do with how he takes care of himself. And they beat New Orleans on Thursday by 40 points. And Zion just looked completely out of shape. And he's a max guy. He's so talented. And all of us at the game were just disappointed. And we were like, How can you be on the court with LeBron, who's same physical gifts in a lot of ways, like a one-on-one physically, but yet also really takes it seriously and takes care of himself. And here's Zian, who is also a one-on-one physically and just doesn't seem to get it. And how do you not get it when you're on the floor with a guy who's 39 years old or 38 years old, however LeBron is, who's maximized everything he can do, does he ever get it? At what point do you just give up on somebody?

Well, I would never give up on that talent. And that's probably the curse of a coach, because you always believe at some point, you can get a guy to change, and it's going to have to take change. Now, he's still playing great. He's had amazing games.

He hit 36 last night.

Exactly. So that's the point. He has these games. And I think with all the comments coming out of the tournament probably spurred that 36 on. But can he do it consistently? And Bill, I worry about guys like him. I had a big baby. Those guys, I don't know who said it, a great player said it, that I've never seen a guy leave the league smaller. I don't care how they come in the league, they always leave the league bigger. That's a concern. Is it a eating disorder? Probably it has to be, right? And so we're working from a rational mind. Yeah, obviously, that's what you should do. I mean, I always look at every single person that plays with LeBron. Why wouldn't you do that? That's rational. Tiger Woods, if you remember, outworked everybody. He was already number one in the world. He was already the best golfer in the world. And yet every single golfer talked about how he outworked him. And I used to sit back and like, Well, rationally, that makes no sense. How can you ever beat him if he's already better and he's outworking you? I look at Zion and the concern for me is that, can he beat this?

I'm hoping when you're around him, and I think, Bill, you've been around him a couple of times, he's a super kid. He really is. I guarantee you, he understands that he has to do something. But the problem is, Kenny, and that's what I don't know.

Well, it's not even an eating disorder as much as probably a lifestyle disorder, right? It's about choices, which I certainly made my share of horrendous choices in my early, mid-20s. And I get it. I don't know if I would have been able to handle making 50 million a year, having the responsibility to play 80 games over six months. But what was amazing watching him in Vegas, even though they're getting killed, is he would still have these bursts of athleticism and explosivesiveness where you're like, even carrying all that weight, you're still doing that. That's, I guess the course of that. Yeah, but it's.

One step away from an injury, too.

Well, that's the issue.

Yeah. Every time he leaves his feet with that weight, you're concerned. He's one of the best finishers in the league. When he gets to the rim and he takes an orthodox angles, it's amazing how soft his touches around the rim with the angles that he's taking, but he can take them because he's more athletic. He's up there. It's like he's gravitating in the air at times. But boy, when he comes down, can you imagine the force on his body? And they're working. You see the trainers. That was the other thing, being around all the guys for four days and going to their practices and seeing them. There's a lot of work going on at NBA right now. And Zion was one of the guys working, but it's all the rest of the stuff.

All right. So you mentioned you had some guys... I mean, you coach for a long time. You had some guys that you just couldn't break through. Can you talk about one of the guys? Who was somebody that you just felt like physically had everything but couldn't get out of their own way?

Well, surprisingly, Glenn Davis. I thought Glenn Davis had unbelievable feel. He was skilled. He had a very high basketball IQ. But boy, we struggled every year. I remember a BDuth with one of our trainers, almost in tears and went training camp because I think it was a bit for six days in camp and they weigh guys. Usually, a typical training camp, I would… I'd say a guy loses, I don't know, between 5 and 10 pounds. I think it was a 4 or 5 day beating once they have a meeting with me because baby had gained six and he couldn't figure it out. He's like, It's impossible, Doc. We're going two days. We're going hard. This is impossible. It was because of eating, and sometimes it's drinking, but it wasn't with big baby. It was just he ate a lot of food. He ate the team meals, and then he would go off and eat more meals. But there were times where he would do it right and go on stretches. His weight fluctuated through the year, like each year, I'm going to guess between 10 and 30 pounds. The weight fluctuations were nuts. And so he was one of the guys, and I probably had a couple more than I'm not thinking of, but it's difficult.

It really is.

I'm with you on it. I thought Big Baby was very skilled. He was good in traffic. He was good bouncing off people. He was always in the right spots defensively. And you're right. I mean, you maximize whatever he could do in '08 and '09, but for the most part, it was a pretty disappointing career. There's two types, right? There's the guys who can't stay in shape, and then there's the guys who aren't really wired to dominate night after night after night, which is something LeBron has taken that responsibility of. He just doesn't take nights off. Part of it is because he's able to just go downhill whenever he needs to do anything. But you coach, Tracy, during his Orlando Apex when he was 32 a night, where he did have that, where he was the night after night will to dominate. And then it would come and go. And then he had it again in Houston. But I was always a Team Mac defender. And I always thought if you look at his teammates during the peak of his career, it's amazing that he even had the success he did. And other people would ding him for the playoff stuff.

But he fits both sides because we were a little disappointed by him. But then he was also awesome and he floated between those two things, right?

Yeah. Listen, I had him young and he was so talented. He was a great offensive talent. He actually was a hell of a defender at times as well. I don't know, I think if T- Mag did his career over, he would have probably wanted to be a better teammate and learn how to be that and be a better leader. Not teammate, because that's the wrong word because he was a pretty good teammate, but more of a leader. But to his defense, he didn't have a lot of help. His help was supposed to be Grand Hill. People forget that. Bill, we had a chance at one point, and this is a crazy thing to say. There was a night when Tim Duncan came to us, and there's this whole rumor that I said his girlfriend couldn't fly on the plane, which is actually not true. You heard Grand Hill tell the whole story, and it's not actual factual. We had Tim Duncan left Orlando and told me and John Gabriel that he was coming.

Well, and to tell just for the listeners, you were one of the first teams ever that actually created Summer Cap Space for three stars. You had the chance to get Duncan and Grand Hill and Trace and McGradie.

Well, no, no. See, that's the misnomer. We had enough money for two.

Oh, I fucked that up. Okay.

No, we didn't have enough number for three. So think about this. There was one night when Tim said he was going, and we were concerned. I called John Calipari to get recruiting advice from him because I thought, Who better to ask than John? And I remember calling the night that Tim left and I said, Hey, we got Duncan. He said, Did he sign? I said, No, he's going back. He's going to talk back to San Antonio. And he said, Well, you just lost him because you don't let the guy off campus, Doc. You can't let him off campus. Yes. But anyway, so there was a night that me and John Gabriel and the ownership were sitting around. We had Tim Duncan, we thought, Tracey McGrady, Grand Hill, and Eddie Jones. And people forget at that time, Eddie Jones was probably in that same category as everybody or thought to be. But we could only take two. We could not create enough money for three.

That's so funny, because now as the years pass, I always thought it was the three together, but it just becomes telephone where you remember it wrong. Yeah.

So we're panicked. What would have happened if Tim hadn't decided to come? We clearly taking him, right?

Yeah. So if it's like a draft, Tim's number one.

Tim's number one. But who's number two? Grant Hill or Tracy McGrady.

But you knew Grant was hurt at that point, right? But you're hopefully going to be 100 %.

Yeah, we didn't know he was hurt. Actually, he was injured, but we thought it was just a small injury and he'd be fine. But Tracy hadn't really... I think he had not even made an All-Star team yet.

He made one. He was that third year in Toronto. It looked like he was going to be like Better Pippen, like scoring Pippen, basically. Exactly. Yeah.

And so it was amazing. We're sitting around and Gabe was saying, Listen, I got to figure out a way to try to get enough money for three. I don't know how we're going to do that. You remember we made 47 trades during the season just to get to two. So it would have been one interesting moment if that had to happen, but it didn't.

It's actually a really underrated what if, especially for the 21st century, just because we lose four San Antonio titles. We don't get Duncan, Manu, and Tony together. We don't get that last 2013, 14. I mean, maybe he goes back after five years, I don't know. But I always felt like Orlando's inability to land big guys compared to Miami when they both have the same state taxes thing, right? I know Miami is a little bit of a living.

Yeah, we did it. When I was there, heck, if I could, everywhere I've been, I've had very good success. I go to Boston, we get the free agents. I got them and we changed the clipper, whole.

Thing.

With getting free agents. So we did it. I got fined. I'm doing the Grand Hill game. I think I got fined, or the team got fined 100 grand. Because when we were playing Detroit, every time Grand Hill ran by our bench, I would stand up and said, 80 degrees, no state taxes. I just kept yelling it, 80 degrees, no state taxes the entire day. Detroit files a complaint. David Stern calls me and said, Doc, is it true that you were yelling 80 degrees and no state taxes? I kept saying, It's 80 degrees and no state taxes. David, what do you want me to say? I didn't lie. And the team got fined a hundred grand for that.

Oh, my God. Is that the maddest he ever got at you? Or was there another time?

Yeah, he was... You know, David, how he swore.

All the time. He just kept telling me- I was going to say did he swear at you?

Oh, God. He called me M. M. And he said, Cut the shit, basically. I had to cut it out.

I want to talk about Detroit in a second, but we're going to take a break. So you mentioned Grand Hill in Detroit, and you mentioned Orlando Stent. You had that Orlando season, would you start at '08? Something like that?

Yeah. We started out pretty poorly, and I told you this as a coach, I made that decision to change our offense. And I had Dave Wood, who was a head coach, Johnny Davis, who had been a head coach, and I come to a practice. We have a three-day stretch. I think this decision probably was one of the more important decisions in my coaching career because it told me to trust your instincts. I came in the practice and said, We're gutting our offense. Now think about it. We've been through training camp, preseason, and I'm throwing it away. And every coach of my staff told me, You can't do that. You just can't. And I said, We have no choice. What we put in doesn't fit our team, and we're going to change it. And we worked our butts off for four straight days. We played that game on the fifth day or whatever it was, we lose, but it looked better. And then, Bill, I think we won 11 out of 12. We went on a hot streak. We became extremely hard to play. What I came to the realization is we are very good and we're not going to win just lining it up playing traditional basketball against teams that are better than us.

And so we had to play a motion offense, a passing game offense. We started trapping and playing zones when you couldn't play zones. We got caught by legal defense about three times a game. We didn't care. We just kept doing it. And it turned us into a 500 basketball team.

All right, I bring that up because Detroit is less than 20 straight games.

Which.

Is really hard in 2023 when we have three-point variance and we have a pretty deep league at this point. You just figure there's going to be one game where you go 19 for 34 from three, and you just get hot. Every bad team gets hot once a month. This team's lost 20 straight. At that point, what's the fix? What do you do? Let's say you're Monte, you're coaching that team. Obviously, it's broken. So what do you do?

Well, you have two decisions to make. Now, I lost 18 in a row when we were in Boston, but we were trying to. I can say that now. Every time we won a game, Danny almost killed me. And you don't try to lose. You just stop playing, Paul, you stop playing, guys. This is different because they're trying to win. So Monty could joke the game up if he wants to possibly make changes like that. I would not. I think what Monty is trying to do is teach a young group of guys how to play the right way, install a culture, which is so important to a franchise, and work their way through it. Now, obviously, losing the games they've lost. They haven't had much shooting, they're starting to get some of the shooting back. But I've watched a lot because my son, Spencer, is on their staff. He's one of the skilled developers. And so I watched a lot of games. I had this thing when I had bad teams. I felt I was a really good coach and I can get to the third quarter, to the middle of the fourth. I used to say, For three and a half quarters, I'm a hell of a coach.

But those last six minutes, I swear, Bill, they lose every game in the last six minutes. If it's close, they did last night. It was a one-point game and then with six minutes left, and then it was a 15-point game. They have zero closers on their basketball team. And when you have that, I always think about that first year when we used to make up stuff. We ran a pick-and-roll one game for Pat Geardy to come off the pick-and-roll, and he made the shot. You're always trying to create a way of winning the game, and you lose a lot of games that way. But I always think now is the mental baggage for these young guys. And that's what Monty is dealing with right now.

Yeah, for a big picture standpoint, whatever, there's going to be five bad teams in the League. The League's deep. They were going to be one of the five bad teams. I do worry a little bit about the K piece. When you mentioned they don't have a closer, he was the number one pick. He was supposed to be their version of Halbertin or SGA or whatever. And it just doesn't seem like he's that guy. There's a lot of bad advanced stats with him. And that would be my biggest concern is you have a quarterback in football. Well, I mean, you actually have a quarterback in football now because there's been a Justin Fields research.

You're back in. Stop it. Stop it. You're back in. We're back in. If Danny Age was coaching the bears, he would be pissed right now with his winning.

He might make the playoffs.

Oh, my gosh.

You're a game out.

We are because we're in a bad division. And other than Detroit, Detroit is really good. They're struggling right now. It's funny about Kate. I like him, Phil. Let me put this. I want to like him because there's a lot of things that he can do. He is a great pastor. His shot is improving rapidly. And that's why I would say the jury is not out on him. I just think, listen, I didn't lose a lot as a player. I think I had one losing year in my entire playing career, and that affected me. I didn't like it. I always tell this when I speak at coaching clinics, the one year that I lost as a player, you can tell who the losers are. I'll tell you that much. It is so obvious. It's so much clearer. When you're on a bad team and when you look around the locker room, you can like, Yeah, that's one. It's so much more clear. And so watching Cate and some of those guys, Cate's playing hard. He played hard last night. He wants to win. He just needs help. And he's not there yet, but he will be.

I think he's going to be a good player.

Okay. I wanted to play a little game called What's wrong? So Detroit, we just covered. Yeah. I just think their roster, they don't have any shooting. Not sure about Cate yet. Yeah, they're playing two bigs. The Donovics coming back. Yeah, they're playing big guys together. They better both be really good if you're doing that. So what's wrong with Golden State conversation?

Boy, that's a great conversation.

So after Minnesota beat them the second time when they had the fight, when McDaniels got into a clay and then the whole thing. And you texted me that night, you thought that was absolutely fascinating that that happened. So explain why.

Because I think Golden State saw who Minnesota is, and that's the greatest respect. They were like, Okay, Minnesota is good. And you can feel that. You can feel it at the beginning. Because Minnesota had just beat them. They played a second game, and Golden State thought, Okay, let's show up and be Golden State. And it wasn't working out. At the Antwards, he didn't get the message, Bill. He didn't know he was supposed to lay down for Draymond. He was talking crap. The team was playing, and I loved it. I love seeing stuff like that. And it was almost like Minnesota was anointed that night by Golden State and by the reaction of Draymond and their entire team.

So Golden State, Clay getting mad at Draymond getting mad, you don't do that if you don't take the team seriously?

No, it wouldn't have meant as much. And that's why I've said it for years, I love the back-to-back games because it does turn... That second game, I don't care if it's two good teams or two bad teams. That second game always brings something.

And.

That game had a lot in it. Because the first game, there was a lot of talking going on. And you could see Minnesota was doing some talking and going, and State showed up and said, Okay, we're going to show you who the big boys are. And when it didn't work out, you could see it didn't work out. And that's what happens. That's why I like back-to-back games.

Yeah, the Southics have Cleveland twice this week and Orlando twice this week, so same thing. The Golden State, the more I watched them, and I said this a couple of weeks ago, I feel even more strongly about it now, they just have the wrong roster. They're not big enough. They don't have enough length. Over and over again, they're getting overpowered. Now you could argue, Oh, their record could be this if these three plays didn't happen and dumb shit has happened to them at the end of games. But they just seem too small to me. And the way the league is going now, when you're talking about Minnesota and the Lakers and Yorkage and a Beat and the Celtics, all these teams have real size. The 2016 model, it just doesn't work anymore. The league is different.

Yeah. Listen to you. We're talking about size now in big. Again, we're back. How about that? It always goes in a circle, Bill. It always does. I mean, people were like, The Bigs are dead. I kept saying, People forget 20 years ago. I don't know how many years ago it was. I think I was just starting to coach the Celtics, and I made a statement, Where are the point guards? There's no point guards in the league.

There were.

There were not. And now then they took over. So now you can see The Bigs are coming back and size matter. Watching the Lakers the other day, they're just huge. They're a huge basketball team. New Orleans is a big basketball team. And so, yeah, I think, in athleticism. And so I think that's part of it. I think part of it also is Steph is still Steph. Heck, you can make a case he's better. And as crazy as it sounds, Draymond is still Draymond. Draymond is as good or better now with the way he plays when he's healthy and playing right. Clay's just not the same. He's still good on certain nights. I don't know if he's accepted.

That- He's in the once-a-week stage of his career.

Yeah. And listen, when you have the two injuries that he had, it's nothing to do with age. It's probably age and injury. The guy that has to take a higher step with him is the biggie. I mean, he's got to be the guy.

Or you trade him.

Or they move him and get something else.

Because to me, it's like they have to either get him going or trade him, and they can't waste this Curry's season. And I said this last year too. If this was LeBron, he'd be going nuts right now because he's like, I don't know how many more of these I have left. I'm playing great. We need a better team around me. Curry is never going to do that. But they don't have the size and they need Wiggins to go. And if he's not going to go, you got to trade him.

And then they're bench. They don't have a deep bench. And to me, those are the things that stand out when you watch them play.

I would add one thing. I agree with you that Draymond physically looks the same. I think he's too erratic now. And I really worry like you watch these games and you feel like he's going to either explode or take a dumb foul or lose it in bad situations. And I don't think he has enough control over his encore personality anymore. He used to be able to harness it and leverage it. Now he's just-.

Do you think so?

I don't. Well, I'd be better than this.

Well, think about it, Bill. He missed a Finals game.

That's true. He did punch the groutes.

He.

Did knock on.

The dust.

But he's supposed to be older, aren't he? He's supposed to be smarter at this point? He's in his 30s.

Yeah, some not. Sometimes you are what you are. And what he is, he needs to be that. But there's times you want him to stop it. So that's the problem.

I think that team is a trade waiting to happen. So the Celtics are playing. By the time people hear this, the first game will happen. They're playing Cleveland. And Cleveland, I think they're like 13 and 10, something like that. Yeah. They're fine. Every time I watch them, I'm like, What's off? What is this? What's going on? And my working theory, well, I think there's two, and you tell me what you think. One is that having Garland and Mitchell maybe just doesn't make sense. You have two drivers. You've got one set of car keys. It's like, whose car is this? I think they're battle on that. And then the other thing is, can you play Moby and Allen together if Moby can't shoot threes in 2024? So you have those two things simultaneously. And I think that's why they are where they are. But what's your theory?

A little bit of both. I think we all thought Moby would be further.

Me? Yeah, I certainly did.

When he first came to League, we were all Raven. Everyone was Raven.

The Duncan got thrown around a tiny bit as a comp.

Yeah, I threw it off the glass. They had all the Duncan stuff, but really hasn't taken the next step of improvement. And because he hasn't taken the next step and you have Allen too, I don't know if that works full-time. The other thing is they get injured a lot. Garland misses a lot of games. Mobley misses a lot of games. The number one ability is availability, right? And so you got to play more games, more healthy games if you want to be a good basketball team. And then the guard play is erratic. One night, they both play well. It just seems like they haven't figured out those two, how to play well and give room for the other guy to play well. You know the old Bill Russell thing, If I can be the only great player on the floor, then we can't win. I have to be great and give enough room for everyone else to be great at the same time. It's just like Donovan will have a game and you're like, Where's Garland? Or Garland have a game, you're like, Where's Mitchell? But they haven't figured out yet as a group how to both play at full throttle and not get in each other's way and that take turns.

And then the last thing-.

Hold that thought, though.

Yeah.

Is that something that could be figured out? Is that just fundamentally not going to happen?

Yeah, I don't know, because I thought it would. I thought it was actually a good parent. Bill, when they first got together, we played them early. I said, Man, if they can figure that out. Because the problem is they both need the ball. But we've seen guards do that, so they just have to. If they don't, then it doesn't work and they have to move on. The last thing, Bill, with them that bothered me last year, the Knicks just bullied them in the playoffs.

Then.

The have done it this year already against them. That's, to me, is a team toughness thing, a physicality thing. Cleveland is the bigger team when you look at them. I think those are the two things that stand out to me, and the third of you had toughness.

Yeah, because everybody's throwing around the same trade teams right now. It's like Toronto and it's Atlanta. Can you get somebody from Detroit and my Golden State do something? Cleveland is not really in those conversations, and they're the stealth trade team for me.

Well, they're also the team that may make a trade.

Well, that's what I mean. They can go either way.

They can go either way. It's funny. We talked about Detroit real quick. Who do you want on their team?

I was thinking Bogdanovich or a fresh start for Ivy, something like that.

Yeah. That just tells you where they're at, though, when you have to think about... And that's one of the regions they're struggling.

I thought Atlanta was going to be a 45-win team this year. Quinn and Snyder, full training camp, unleash the offense, train Murray together, and they would just be going, be an up and down team. They had some bad luck. They've had some injuries, but they're 9 and 14, right? Right as we're getting into where all the guys are available to be traded and it just seems like they're a trade team. Does the Trey Murray thing work for you? Would you pick one? What would you do?

Oh, boy, it hasn't worked. They're both small in size. Now, Murray will try to defend very competitive, but he's still small at the end of the day and slight. Yeah, I don't see that working, but I'm with you. I just thought Q would come in and offensively would change them… And they have. They've been better offensively at times. But after that, I mean, they're not a deep team. You just don't see it on night-to-night basis with them. They're one of these teams that happened last night against Denver, if you watched that game.

I did.

They were up early, then they were down 20. Then they make these crazy offensive runs. They do it all the time, probably more than any team. They cut it to two and then they lose.

And.

That's happened over and over watching Atlanta play.

Yeah, that's one of those last... It's like those football teams that can go the 50-minute football teams. And then you get to the last 10 minutes of the game and it's like, Oh, man, we almost had that one. Atlanta is like, Oh, we almost had that.

One team. Moral victory team. And listen, try at the end of the game. No one wants to be in a one-point game. You saw it last year in Vince Boston. You don't want to be in a one game. One point game when that dude's on the floor with the ball because he's capable of making shots. But the defense from him is poor. And you have to do both ends if you want to win this league.

Yeah. Toronto, another day. I mean, they're in every trade. Everybody in that team is in the trade machine, and it's just not working. But yet there's pieces people like... I mean, the weirdest thing with them is that Siakam just is throwing bricks from three now. He can't make three at all, which makes it a little harder to trade for him if you're a team like Golden State. I thought maybe Wiggins and Camingo for Siakam is a trade that made sense. And I said that on a pod. And a couple of people said to me, How do you play Draymond and Siakam together when neither of them can hit threes? I was like, Oh, it's a solid point. Yeah, he doesn't make him anymore. And he's going to be a free agent at the end of the year. Ananobi is somebody that every coach seems to love, and he's your classic three and D guy. What do they do?

I don't think they mind where they're at right now. I really don't. I think Toronto did this because they are going to rebuild. In my opinion, I think they will move at least one and maybe both guys. But you know, Masai, he's going to hold it close and he's going to wait to the last second, and he's going to squeeze every bit of juice out of that orange that he can get. That's what he does. We thought last year they were going to do stuff and they held their cards. They actually had it. They never did. But I don't think Masai is upset with what's going on. I mean, clearly, he would like to play a little better, but I think he just wants value and he's going to get it.

I thought they'd be a little better. I like the mix of guys this year. I thought Schrooter adding him. And I didn't think they were going to lose a lot with Van Blee versus Schrooter and new coach, but I've not seeing it. The last one I had was, Phoenix has had B-O all year.

Yeah.

But as you said, sometimes there's certain guys where you just don't have them for chunks of the year. And he's one of those guys. You pencil them in for the 50-60. You're not getting the 70-80 from him. So you knew that was happening.

You're at 40 now.

Right. You're in the 40s with him.

One thing.

I've noticed with themand Durant and Booker, when they're together, obviously terrifying. But it's one of those things where in certain basketball teams have this where the thing you don't want to happen in the last five minutes of a game keeps happening over and over again. And for them, Nurekitch is just so... I know you've announced at least one of their games. Nurekitch is so involved in the last four minutes for them. And it's either he's battling down the lane and he's kicking out to somebody or he has to make a six-footer. And it's just a lot of Nurekitch. And it just makes me discount them as a final contender because I just don't think he's an elite guy. And it's just over and over again, the ball seems to find him.

Well, that's on purpose by the defenses. Itry to always say that I had a player and I'm not going to use his name, but he was an awful shooter. And he told me in the playoffs one year, he says, Hey, Coach, I know their game plan. I think you're going to try to leave me open. And my comment back was, I know. I'm going to try to get you guarded as hard as I can.

Jaylen used to call that the open for a reason guy. Open for a reason guy. You're open for a reason.

Yeah, it's the truth. But I do like, Nerkies can really do that fast. He can do things. They're a very emotional team, Phoenix. Booker is so competitive and so is KD that they can become a very emotional team within the games. I know that sounds nuts, but that's something they're going to have to figure out, is how to control that.

So how do you use that against them?

Well, people get under their skin. How many times do you see Booker and someone going at each other? It happens all the time. Part of that is a good thing. You want that, but you have to still play right. And that's something. And they're both so competitive. Booker will start going at the guy. We used to try to get Isiah going because Isaiah was uber-competitive, if you remember that. Mike, for Tello, you said, That was the one game I could go for early in the game because if I can score early, he may come back at you. And if he comes back at you, now he's not being a point guard. Now, it didn't work very much because I'd say it was a pretty smart player, but when it did work, you won. But they did build. I like when you look at the construction of their team, it's constructed pretty darn well. Having Gordon come off the bench is the ultimate guy. And the thing that they missed without Bill playing, they haven't played. They have no equity together. They've not played together. And so you have to figure out rotations, right? Anybody can figure out a starting lineup.

It doesn't matter in some ways. And anyone can figure out to end the last five. It's the rest of the game. Who plays the best with the bench? Do we put the rent on the floor and take everybody else out? Or do we put Booker and Bill together? None of that has been worked on. And at some point, if they don't have a chance to do that, we don't even know what they're going to be. And so to me, I would say, jewelry is still out in Phoenix.

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out, has there been a team that's been thrown together like that that's actually just gone and won four rounds? You could say the '08 Celtics is probably the closest, but you had veteran guys in that team, and a lot of those guys were already on the team.

And we're healthy.

But think about how much you struggled in the first three rounds. You guys played like 45 playoff games.

And Bill, it's funny, that team, we had a lot of changes in that team, but we also had some continuity with guys coming back. But that team, when you think about it, I don't think we lost two games in a row the entire season. And then going into the playoffs, remember someone asked me, Do I have one fear? And I said, Yeah, we had zero adversity. We've had none and nobody.

Because we have sit together. Then you certainly had it.

We had it quickly. Even though it's funny, and I just did the… With Paul, I did their podcast with Paul.

And Kevin.

It's really interesting. Listen to them. You hear so much stuff that you didn't know. They were talking about the Atlanta series. You probably remember I made a comment that went over everybody's head, except for the very few. When I made the comment, I said, Yeah, the City of Atlanta was phenomenal tonight. I wasn't talking about the team. I was pissed because I thought we did take them light, like we got full of ourselves. That was the only time. Paul and them were literally verified that the other day. They were laughing. Oh, my God! They were having a good time. But they never… as Kevin said, Everybody was panic when we went to game seven, we did not worry about them at all and said, Well, I wish you could have told your coach that. That was up all night.

Well, but the Cleveland, the next series was a... That was a little- That was brutal.

Yeah, but you knew that was going to be hard with LeBron. That was just a brutal series. And then after that, it almost like tough, not easy because Detroit beat us. They're the first team to beat us on our home floor in the playoffs, but a little easier and then the Lakers. So yeah, I think you have to go through that.

When you see those guys now, what's it like?

It's awesome. I talk to a lot of them, but I'm never around them a lot. You're right. I was spending two hours with them. Tony Allen was with us. It's awesome. Oh, my God. And I always use the Bill Parcell thing about the blood transfusion. When you win a title, you have a blood transfusion with that group, and you're always connected. It didn't matter where I'm at. Any house, I saw this summer and he jumps out of the car in L. A, and just runs down the street and gives me a big hug. I mean, that's just how it is.

We'll take one more break and I got some more things to throw you. We are supported by NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube and YouTube. Don't change your team and change your town. Get NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube and YouTube. Tv where it's easier than ever to keep up with all your favorite teams on Sunday afternoons, especially down the home stretch here. You can get the midseason price starting at $7 for the rest of 23th season when bundled with YouTube. Tv, it's the most important stretch. We have 107 and six or six and seven teams. We have a bunch of playoff seats at stake. I mean, some storylines to watch out for. Who's going to get the number one seating the NFC? Can Dallas pass Philly? Can Dallas pass San Francisco? San Francisco got the one seat locked up. We also have in the AFC, who do you like? Is there a team that's going to jump out over these next few weeks? And then on top of that, is somebody crazy going to get in the playoffs? Can Buffalo make it? This is another amazing storyline. Buffalo 7 and 6, they could be 10 and 3.

They could be 5 and 8. Regardless, there's no better place to watch the race for the playoffs than with NFL Sunday ticket on YouTube. And YouTube TV, that includes the multi-view feature. There's seven games this week, so you need the multi-view for that. You get four.

You can just.

Pick the four. It's really easy to pick which ones you want. Thanks to NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube and YouTube TV for sponsoring. This segment, it's truly the best place to keep up with all your favorite teams out of market, Sunday Games. And now again, watch the rest of the NFL season for a much lower price. Get NFL Sunday Tickets starting at $79 when bundled with YouTube. Tw, where you get even more football. Sign up now at YouTube. Com/bs, lowest price on the YouTube TV with base plan, rest of 2023, season terms and embarkos apply. No cancelations. Or playing a game of do you believe... First up, Milwaukee. Do you believe this is a finals team?

Yes, I think. You do? Yeah, I do. Today, it's not. But they're going to figure it out. I just believe that.

Which part are they going to figure out?

They're going to figure out how to play with Giannis and Dan. They both are playing well at times, but they have not figured that out. That's going to take a minute. It really is. Yana still has the ball a lot. Daim still has the ball. Middleton is starting to come back. I watched them last night, and they kept trying to let the Bulls win. It was.

Like, Come back, Bulls. I watched the fourth in the overtime. Kobe White was... Kobe White, by the way, out of nowhere. He was the all-time late bloomer. I had him crossed off.

That would be the all-time late. But you just keep... They have no rhythm yet. You can see it, Bill. And it's going to take a minute, I guess. But it has to start with those two figuring out their process, how to make each other better. I think right now, they're both playing to be better, but not to make each other better. And it's going to come. It's going to click. And when it does, then it makes it easy for everybody else on the floor.

I saw them in person with really good seats on Thursday, and it did not seem like a happy team to me, which I was surprised by. And it's why one of the things it's so important to go to games, especially if you have jobs like ours now, where you just pick up so many different things and the vibes just seemed way off with that team. And I was surprised.

The body language is not great, right? I saw the same thing. But that's because they have expectations.

And.

I think a lot of times, players, and it happens all the times, players always want to play with each other. Hey, let's go get him. And then they have these expectations, and they think they're just going to roll into the season. I always use the best example of that is we're not going to win one title. We're not going.

To two titles.

Well, think about Miami. The first year, they lose. The second year, we have them down. They're close to losing again. You have to learn. The first year watching Miami, and my players will tell you this, before our game one, I said, These three guys think they can beat us 12. And until they start playing with the other nine, they can't beat us. And it took Miami a year and a half, almost two years to figure that out with each other. And then once they did, they became pretty dominant. Yet they still lost just as many titles as they want. It takes time, and it takes… You got to give up stuff. Giannis is handling the ball a lot more. He's probably going to have to handle it less. Forget after that Brooklyn series when Milwaukee won, what was the biggest play they did down the stretch? They put the ball in Midleton's hand, and Giannis became a roller at times. Now it looks like it's gone back the other way. I just think it's going to take time with all of them. But Giannis and Dame will figure it out. They're going to have groin pains.

They're probably going to... There's going to be some stubborn guys mixed into that. But I think by the end of the year, it'll come together.

Here are my two concerns for them. One is, Middleton just doesn't look like the same guy in person. And that's fine. He might just be at a slightly different point of his career. But for what this team is, they need the 2021 Middleton who they can go to at the end of the games, but also can guard the other team's best Tatum, Durant. Yeah, that's.

What he can't do anymore.

He can't do that anymore.

He can't guard as much anymore. I agree with that.

Yeah, so that's problem one. Problem two is I haven't seen them stay in front of a guard yet. Even Kobe White last night was going wherever he wanted on the floor. When you were on the first time this year, we talked about that Danes defense, how that was just subplot that everybody was just not looking at. And they try to hide him a lot. They'll put him in the corners. But they don't really have anyone on the roster to guard. Even the game I went to, they threw a green, they had Bo champ out there, Andre Jackson was out there. He's just playing roulette trying to find anybody who can stay in front of somebody, and they don't have the guys on the roster right now.

Yeah, they don't have a shutdown guard defensively, and they had one.

And they let him go.

Javan Carter. And they let him.

Well, and Drew.

Yeah, Drew was the one. Carter is a guy that can come in in spurt and give you. He's an energy defender.

They don't even have that.

And they don't have that. Connington has been out, so they need him back. But he's not a shutdown defender. He's just a great, tough player. But I still buy them. I still put them in the category.

All right. A rare disagreement for us. I don't see it with them this year. We don't know what the roster is going to look like in February, but I just don't see it. And then you throw in the first-year coach piece, too. They were- And that's tough.

That's brutal because it's one thing to be a first-year coach. It's another thing to be a first-year coach and coach a team that just won a title two years ago. And what happens is the players who are on that team really think they know more at times. So, Griffin has a tough job. But I was around them in the same hotel and you see that that's going to... I think that part will work itself out. I think the Dame and once the Dame and the Mianis part works out, I think you'll see everybody else fall in place.

Next, do you believe... Well, I think I know the answer to this. Do you believe Minnesota can actually make the 2024 NBA Finals?

I think yes.

I think yes too.

But they do have that young factor in them. They can do some silly things as a group. They did last year. I'm going to say yes, but.

If you ask me this- But you also don't think it's going to happen.

Yeah. If you ask me this, who has a better chance? Milwaukee or Minnesota? I would choose Milwaukee.

I would choose Minnesota.

Yes.

But I agree with you on the, what happens with Edwards when we start getting into game sixes and game sevens in round two and round three? Yeah. And it's like, Holy shit. We might actually win this series. I got to do something. You just haven't been in that situation. You don't know how to calm your body down yet, any of that stuff.

Yeah, the Biggs areboth of the starting bigs have emotional meltdowns, both of them. That's the stuff, that's the stuff. That's the intangibles that I don't think people talk about enough. That stuff wins and loses series for you, and that's a concern. Think about last year, they were fighting during the playoffs. They were literally fighting on the bench. So that's a concern.

Well, right now, they're 17 and 5. They lost last night, but they didn't have McDaniels or Edwards. And I think once those two guys come back and they have their team, it's the best defensive team in the league, and it's not close. They have so many options. The thing that shocked me watching them, because I really like watching them this year, and I really like... I don't want to jinks it. I'm going to knock on wood. Whatever this version of Towns is, I believe in it. So somebody said to me, I think on this podcast, I can't remember who said it, but the fact that Edwards is so obviously the alpha.

It's so important.

It's so good for Towns because Towns is like, Oh, cool. I don't have to be on the movie poster anymore. I could just be one of the other guys, which is who he is.

And I think he's always fighting to be number one. There's these stupid little competitions on almost every team where the guys are fighting to be two and three or one and two instead of just playing. And I think Towns has always wanted to be number one. He's fought to be number one. But with the Edwards, he knows he's not number one. And sometimes the best thing that happens on the team is when there's a clear separator. I go back to… I remember Austin's first game at Duke. At Duke, and he was a freshman, and Austin's passing, just trying to fit in. Coach K grabbed me after the game. And it was one of the few times, Coach, he said, and I used to always tell Coach, don't talk to me. I'm a parent. I don't want to hear it. And he says, No, you got to hear this. I just need you to listen to me on one thing. You got to tell your son he has to be the best player. He has to separate himself, because then I could make him the best player because he is. And it makes so much sense.

And I've always said that you need separators. You don't want 10 guys to be equal. You want guys to separate. And I think now that Edwards has done that, but now Towns is just going out and playing. He's not thinking about all that stuff, and it's made him a better player.

And it seems like Edwards is really supportive of Towns and tries to fire him up and get him going and has his back. And there's leadership with Edwards that's pretty unusual for, I think he's like 22.

Yeah, he's a great dude.

Yeah.

He is a great dude.

But they said that at the World Championship. That was the thing that all the coaches were shocked by. He was like this connector.

And he's not trying to be. He just is. He's a guy. He's a pipe piper. When he goes out, you want to go out with him. It's going to be fun. You're going to have a good time. When he goes to dinner, it's going to be funny. But when you're working out with him, you're going to work. It's going to be competitive. He has all those intangibles that helps build teams. And he's not trying to do it. It's who he is. And that's what makes him special.

If I had to bet on a scenario for that team, it's a little similar to your 88 Hawks team. All the pieces are there. I think they're going to be in a 15-round fight with somebody really good, and they probably lose. And it's probably like a game seven to Denver in round three or round two, but it's like a heroic loss. And you're like, Holy shit. They gave that team everything they had. And I think that's how it ends up for them.

I think they have to... The only way they do lose is to a smarter team.

Which is Denver.

Yeah, because you're not going to help athleticism. Their athletes are jumping off. They are long and athletic. They have to be healthy. But if they're healthy, man, there's a couple of teams I don't want to play. One will surprise you in the West. Minnesota, I want nothing to do with. They're just too athletic. They're also wild. They're not scared. Connolly is perfect for them because hes going to calm them down. The other team that this will shock you is New Orleans. If they're healthy, they have zyitis anywhere near right, I do not want to play New Orleans in the playoffs. Those are the two teams in the West.

And they had such a disappointing semifinal in Vegas. I thought they're going to win. I thought they're going to beat the Lakers. And then I saw Zion warming up and I was like, Oh, they're not going to beat the Lakers. Size, shooting, and weird lineups. One of the things that scares me at Milwaukee is there's not a lot of moves with that team. You know what they're going to have out there in Crunch time in some form, and there's not a lot of malleability with the roster. That New Orleans team, they can throw 15 different lineups out, and I like 14 of them.

And they have great defensive guards. They're good. They could be really good. Ingram is a guy, though. He has to be the guy that... Can he be good if he's not number one? That's the question with him. He struggled in the Olympics or with the USA team because he was not the number one option. And so that's, to me, is he's going to have to figure out there's going to be nights where there's others. And can you still be good with it?

Yeah, I watched that game with Rosillo and a couple of other Ringer people. And there's a New Orleans lineup that I just want to see more of, that just this long lineup with Daniels and Herb Jones and Ingram and Alvarado. And it's like, man, that team would be a bitch to play to just bring the ball up against.

Herb Jones is the best defensive player in the League that we don't talk about enough.

He.

Is a great defensive player.

Oh, you know what I meant to ask you that you brought me to a tangent? I think on the first pod you did, you talked about Drew. I think you called him a plug-and-play guy.

Yeah.

You said he's one of the five plug-and-play guys in the league, but you never said who the five were.

Yeah, I use him as five. I don't know who the other.

Five are. I can come up with- So who's the entire list?

Let's think about that.

Who can just- Is Derrick White on that list?

Derrick White is on everybody's list. He's just one of those guys. And he's another guy. It's Eric Gordon, not necessarily defensively, but Eric Gordon, you can trade anywhere. And he's going to be the same player no matter what happens, and he fits the team. It's funny. He starts, he doesn't start, he plays well, he doesn't play-.

You can put him in the corner, you can have him initiate the offense. Yeah, you're right.

Those are the type of guys that you'd love to have on your team. I'm trying to think of a couple more.

Because Carusso seems to be one of those guys. Now you wouldn't put him.

Quite there. You want him to be, but we haven't seen enough. I love Carusso. I tried to get him when I was with the Clippers after his first year. I love that kid. And he's shooting the ball better, but he hasn't been a consistent shooter yet.

So ultimate plug and play guys all time?

All time. Like Pippen? We got to-.

Like mid-ninet Pippen?

Yeah, Pippen could play anywhere. With anybody at any time. Halbocheck, I had to throw that in there for you.

Thank you.

Yeah, because just the way you played was just a beautiful player.

You know who doesn't get enough credit for this? Because he's been around so long that there's been 19 version of him. But in 2012, 13 LeBron on Miami was like Swiss Army knife LeBron. What lineup do you need me for? Because I'll be the best version of any position in it.

You know what LeBron does? He didn't have credit for is his brain.

Yeah.

He really does it. We don't talk about his brain enough, Bill, because it's hard to talk about his brain when you see his athleticism.

Right.

But he is so much smarter than.

Everybody else. I feel like he's gained intelligence, too, the last couple of years. Yeah, but you do. He's just figuring shit out like the Terminator now.

You do. You remember Kevin McHale made that? It's a hilarious statement. Late in his career, he said the problem of becoming an older player is you see everything you should do. You just can't do it anymore. Well, LeBron is seeing it now, and he can still do it.

Yeah.

And that's what makes him so extraordinary. He's so far ahead. I said it on the telecast the other day. If you could go back to high school with all the knowledge that you have right now, you would dominate, right?

Yeah.

You would dominate life. You would dominate life. And that's what LeBron is doing. That's what it looks like when he's playing basketball. He has all the answers. He's moving before they pass the ball. He's telling guys on his next play, they're going to do this. And he's right most of the time. The game has become easier for him because of his brain and that harder because of his age.

Well, one of the fun things about watching him in person, the energy conservation he does during the game, literally every decision he makes, there could be like, Oh, the game has stopped for foul shots. And he's like, I'm going to walk 12 feet and then stop. And I'm just going to stay here and not move for two minutes. And then I'm going to go again.

Also, Darvon Ham, people don't give people credit for stuff. Like, Darvon Ham allows him to call the timeout when he's tired, sit when he wants to, and tells him when he's ready to go in. And people was like, Oh, that's LeBron coaching the team. I said, No, that is brilliant coaching. That is figuring out, I got to figure out what he can do, and he's going to tell me and I trust him. I think they do that. They didn't do that early in the year. Remember, they were trying to figure out the stupid minute things, which I hate. Instead now, you can see it all tournament. Lebron, the one time he brought the ball up and just held his head up, Somebody come get me. And he'll go sit for five minutes. They'll come right back in, sit for two minutes, he'll come in. I think it's brilliant.

That works when it's LeBron. It doesn't work as well when it's Marcus, Smart, and Joe Mazzola. No. Maybe- Maybe that's.

The same effect. It doesn't work with 99.9 % of the players.

Do you believe in OKC yet?

I just think they're really good. I don't believe they're a championship team, but they're just really good. They're going to have a great season. And Shay, can we put him in the top five yet? I mean, he's right there. So I.

Was going to ask you, Shay versus Halberton, that's - You know what? That's funny. There's an all-NBA guard spot. Lucas got one, Curry's got one, but then Shay and Halbert, and it's like, Well, wait a second. I only have two spots. What do I do?

Oh, Shay.

Over Halbert?

For me, and I love Halbert, but Shay is every night. Teams have not figured out how to slow him down. He didn't have a lot of bad nights. He is a spectacular player. What I do like for the League, they're both spectacular people. And I think that's great for our League.

Albert and the stuff he's done with Indiana, from a leadership standpoint, seems like a 10 out of 10. And Shay is more a little quiet. But what's crazy about that team is like, Oh, it's a tie game with five minutes left. It doesn't matter who's on the other side. It's like, Oh, I have to go against Curry today. Oh, that's Luca. He doesn't care. Do you want to get together? I'm going to get my points.

Shay is quiet, sneaky. He's not that quiet, but he's quiet. But he's got this competitive gene build in him. It's an inner thing. When you coach him, you see it. He's a killer. He is an absolute killer. I think that's a form of leadership for their team.

Well, I got to ask because your team traded them.

Yeah.

So I was going to those games his rookie year. I never saw this. I will never say I even saw one piece of, Oh, this guy will average 30 points a game. But we all love them. And we were like, Man, this guy is a real dude. This is a two-way guard. This guy is something. And when they made the trade and it was all those picks, and I remember doing the pod that day, and I was like, Man, people don't... The Shay thing is like, that's like a real piece. That guy's.

Really good. What was your reaction? Well, my reaction was we're getting Kauai and Paul George was happy. Having said that, I did bring it up. I did say, Man, can we give them somebody else? We cannot give up Shay. I even told Kauai when he was saying, I need another guy, and Kauai will verify. I kept saying, Kauai, Shay is going to be a star. Well, how long? I don't know how long, but he's going to be one. I think we saw it. We didn't know it was going to be this. No one knows that. You didn't know it was going to be this. Nobody knew. Yeah, no one knows that. But we saw greatness that this dude is going to be a hell of a player. He's a hell of a worker. He's coachable. He's everything that you want in a star player. And we did see that.

So looking back at that Kauai decision where he's like, I'll come, but you also have to get Paul George. And you look back and it was like, That was stupid. I don't Paul George is excellent. Now you look back because you don't know what shape. Kauai just won the title. It's not like I got to get a win this year. He just won, right? Yeah. And you could say, Just go to the Clippers. They have a good team already. They have a good coach. They're going to have all these picks. Let's just see it for a couple of months. And then you can decide... In retrospect, that would have been the decision, right? Forget about the Shay part.

In retrospect, if you could have convinced Kauai come, all right? Let's see what we have. If we want to go get Paul, we can still go get him.

Yeah, that trade with 19 picks was going to be.

There in January. No one else is doing that trade. So in retrospect, which we don't get to do, but the problem was we didn't know. Listen, I'm not a cart player or a gambler. I am on the golf course. But it would have been interesting if we had played the game with Kauai. Kauai was basically saying, if you don't get A, he's going to go to B, right?

And Ballmer's worried he's going to go to the Lakers and the Clippers lose out again. They lost out on Kobe in 2004.

Yeah, but we couldn't lose to the Lakers. You know what I mean? We could not let them get them. I don't believe in my heart that Kauai would have gotten there.

I don't either. Especially knowing what we know now is never going to happen.

I don't believe it. I think he was coming to us all along, but he had all the cards. It's funny, Bill. He came to my house. I had that house in Malibu at the time, right?

Yeah.

I was the only house that he came to. He didn't go to anybody's house in Toronto. He met the Lakers in a hotel room. We didn't even go to their facility. Yet he came to my house. I kept saying, He's telling us where he's doing. He's telling us we have him. But he had all the leverage, and we had the bite for sure.

Yeah, in retrospect, you could have done that. We tried Paul George. They just wanted too much. But we promised we're going to double down, because at that point, you had Shay, who was going to be in year two. You still have Galinari, who was still a really good rotation player at that point. Very solid. Yeah. But in general, I think you would just won... You had the Williams. You just won 48 games. You're just going to add Kauai. I always thought like, I just don't see him going with LeBron, and I just don't see it.

No way. He's too competitive. Say what you want about Kauai, missing game, but Kauai is a competitive dude. There's no way he wants to be better than LeBron. That's how competitive he is. I just could not see him join in the Lakers.

Well, we got to end with the Clippers.

All right.

What do you see?

Man, I don't know. I go back.

And forth- That's where I've landed. I've also landed at I don't know.

I just don't know. There's moments. James does do some good things for them. He plays the pick and roll extremely well with Zoup. And Zoup's had a resurgence with James.

He.

Gets their cutter's shot because he's a passing. I almost hate to say this, but or not, he goes back to last year with us, when I was with the Sixers, when he plays right like he did for the Sixers the first half of the year, and becomes a point guard that can steal score points, but just not have the ball all the time, he's really good. But when he has those few games that he's at with the Clipper where he's overhandling, holding the ball for 20 seconds, that means Paul George and Kauai doesn't have the ball, and everybody would take that. The stretches where he's playing right, where he controls the team, but the ball is moving, he's really good for them because they didn't have that, and that's a great thing for them. The question will be, can he do that enough to be happy? All right? And then the question on the other end, the defensive question. He made a defensive play last night for them to win the game. What? Yeah, he made a defensive play. But I always say that, like we talked about it earlier, everybody says they want to win.

Well, if you want to win, you got to at least try on both ends. And so that'll be the second question, is the defensive part.

It's hard for me to believe this is a better situation than playing with Joel Embiid, especially the way Embiid is playing right now.

I don't think any guard in the league is better playing with Joel Embiid, period.

It just seems like common sense.

It's common sense, Bill. You know what I always tell people? There's only two bigs in the league that if I'm a guard, if I come off of, they're not switching, which gives you an advantage. The joker? Yeah. N-n-b. No one's switching that. You can't. And so you know when you come off of Joe, LLNB, you are absolutely going to get something good. You know when you come off a joker, you're absolutely going to get something. And every guard in the league should be running to play with those two guys, for sure.

I'm not buying the Clippers. I'm not wavering from my initial stance. I don't see the defensive stops. I just think three guys need the ball a little too much on that team. Do you think a bead looks slightly better than it did last year?

Yeah, for sure.

He's happy. So what's different? So he's happy. That's what it is?

Yeah, he's happy. And the one thing that I know about Jojo is he is like this passive-aggressive killer. You know what I mean by that? Yeah. He does. He wants to prove something to people, to James and to like, Yeah, I'm good. Right. And In't, I can lead this team. And you feel it. His teammates talk about it. Each year, I told you the one thing that I thought Joe had to get better in is making himself part of the team. And you're watching him from afar now. He's doing it. It's coming. He's doing it. He's passing more. He's engaged more with his teammates. I know that sounds quirky, but that's so important, Bill, and he's starting to do it. He's already won MVP, Bill. Now you can feel him. Last year, that MVP was so important to him. He's playing winning basketball. He's playing to win now. I think a lot of it is the way James came in this year and people talked about the team and what they need, and he wants to prove that I'm Joel Embiid. I think he's making that statement.

He's been awesome. He's destroying these teams, too. That's the other thing. Oh, my gosh. He's getting the 40 points in three quarters, that stuff.

The game last night against Washington. He's playing really well.

All right. Well, we always end with story time from you. So give us... You played for Greg Popovich for a year. Give us a Greg Popovich mid-90s story. I never prep you on these. I just thought I'd throw them at you.

The pop thing, because pop was more of the front office. Bob Hill was the coach. But the couple of things I will say real quick is-.

Oh, you never actually played for him as a coach?

No, pop was my GM. Bob Hill was the coach.

This is a bad question. Maybe I should have done a different one. Yeah, but.

Pop and I hung out because I was old. That was my age group was hanging out with guys like, instead of the the players, almost. I got to tell this story and you're going to… It's nuts. I'm going to shorten it because it's just too much. But we were down two to the rockets. Down two in the Western Finals. Right? Man, pop wanted to have a meeting. Dennis Robman and pop absolutely did not.

Like each other. I can't believe it.

Yeah, could you imagine? So pop calls a meeting. We're sitting in the meeting. Dennis is not... I'm not there yet. Dennis walks in as the meeting is about to start a little late because that's what Dennis does, almost on purpose because he was in the arena. He was just being late because he wanted to get on the pop skin. The exchange between those two and I cannot do it justice, Bill, was incredible. Dennis walks in and says, When I heard your voice, I wanted to turn around. I can't stand you. This is in front of the team. And then Pop goes back at him even harder. It was brutal what Pop said back to Dennis. Then Avery gets involved, then Dennis Rodman, then David gets involved, Terry Cummins gets involved. We had Moses in the locker room, and Moses is… I love that man. He is such a great guy. The funniest statement maybe ever made in Earth was Moses goes to this long speech about… Avery Johnson just cuts him off. Hey, we don't have time to listen to your press clippings right now, all right? We know who you are, but we're trying to win.

The funniest thing that it was ever said was Avery Johnson was a very religious guy. The bottom line is the key, Mellisha One is destroying us, right? Yeah. Avery Johnson says, Five-0, because that's what he called David. I said, I don't know, man. I don't know. But right now, Allah is whooping God.

Oh, my God!

We, as a group, have to do something about it. We were laughing so hard. That's how crazy this meeting. I'm not, Bill, I'm swearing to you. I'm not doing this meeting half the justice. Now, we came out of one of the next two. Wow! So whatever it worked, it worked. But that's why as a coach and as a player, those meetings in the locker room usually don't work. I don't think that would work. It gave us, whenever we're around each other, it's 100 % that meeting is going to come up. There's so many things that were said in that meeting. It could have been a movie. It could have been one movie.

Like the most personal insults possible?

Both. Everybody towards each other back and forth. And Pop, it looked like he was having the time of his life. He was throwing him out. It was the craziest meeting I have ever been in as a player in my entire career.

That's a good one. Well, next time we'll have to do a Moses story. There's a lot of story time left with you. All right, Doc Rivers, when's your next CSP in game?

Not until Christmas Day.

Oh, look at you. Yeah. That sounds like a lot of golf.

A lot of golf. I'm going to probably go visit my daughter to see the grandkids and all good.

All right, good. All right. Good to see you. Thanks, Doc.

All right. Take care.

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks, as always, to Doc Rivers. Thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Sarudy as well. I'm going to be back on this feed on Thursday with the Smoking Hot, Million dollar picks and some football and and a movie guest as well. So stay tuned for that. See you then.