Coming up, basketball, basketball and more basketball. Next, we're also brought to you by the Ringer podcast network. That's where you can find the rewatchables, where we did internal affairs on Monday. You can watch that on YouTube.com. Bill Simmons, too, where we put up all the rewatchables videos. We put up stuff from this podcast, videos and clips. We do walk and talks. I did one today about Otani, trying to decide whether the Otani gambling scandal was a scandal or just a situation. Here's where I landed, by the way, I don't think anybody that makes as much money as the interpreter was probably making would have a line of credit with a bookmaking service that was $4.5 million. That seems unrealistic to me. That's the kind of credit you give to really, really rich people and rich celebrities. So we will see how this plays out. Maybe Otani really is like Babe Ruth. Same kind of vices. I don't know. I'm giving all the Dodger fans, I know I'm giving them a ton of shit because the season could not have started out worse for them. But the otani thing, maybe this is what will make baseball interesting to the masses again, a massive scandal.

We'll see how it plays out coming up on this podcast. Steve Saruti, our beloved producer, who you hear pop on Rosillo's podcast all the time, also a huge Orlando Magic fan. They had a big game today. We're going to break down the magic because they are going to be a top four team in the east, it looks like, and we have to do a full deep dive on them. Then Kentucky lost a March madness, so we had to bring in Tay Fraser from one shining podcast to talk to me and Cerudi about the possible end of the calipera era. And also some stuff to look at as we head into the March madness stretch here. And then last but not least, and man, I hate having this on the second end of the podcast because this was really good. But Austin Rivers came on. He hosts off guard for us. And we talked a bunch of NBA. I would highly, highly encourage you to stick around because we talked about a lot about Anthony Edwards. We talked about playoff teams that might be dangerous in the west. We talked about really good, really fun, long conversation.

I had a great time. This is a really good podcast that will last you until the weekend, until it's me and Rocillo on Sunday night. First, our friends from projip taping this part of the podcast. It is a little past 630 Pacific time Thursday night. I rarely just steal from Rosillo, but I'm stealing Steve Saruti, our beloved producer who pops on our pods, who's also on the Ringer gambling show from time to time. This is really a Steve Saruti kind of night. We had an incredible, credible us men's soccer comeback against Jamaica. We had a referendum on where the Orlando Magic are right now. And then, to top it off, John Caliperi falling apart in the first round. But let's talk about Orlando. You're a lifelong magic fan. You've talked about the magic before. They're playing New Orleans tonight, and I was fascinated by this game. This was one of those, hey, I kind of want to see this. This is going to feel like a playoff game in a lot of ways. Two teams kind of the little mirror images of each other in a lot of ways in both conferences, and Orlando wipes them out.

And it was really interesting to watch. Orlando is 42 and 28 now. They're the fourth seed. Last 25 games before today, they were 18 and seven, 7th in net rating. So now they're 19 and seven. Their last 26. What is this team?

They're, I think, going to be a pretty scary first round playoff opponent for whoever they get. It's looking like, it's like Nick's magic has been a collision course for a while, and there's been a lot of smack talk, too. Like Ben Stiller was talking some smack on Twitter. Stephen A. Smith the other day on first take, said he wasn't worried he was sleeping on the magic, and that got everybody riled up in magic, Twitter and Reddit circles. I'm so happy you got to watch it tonight because I cannot wait to see Jalen Suggs and Jonathan Isaac with Paulo Franz and the rest of that bench. But those two guys defensively, just absolutely unleash in a playoff series, because I have concerns about the Magic scoring in a playoff series, like, against anybody, really. I just know they're pretty dependent on, um, they're not a good shooting, know, they can go through these lulls offensively all the time, but they're a top five defensive team in the league, and they have two guys that are, I would argue, like, I mean, Isaac's not going to be an all NBA defensive player. I don't think Suggs should be.

I think first team, but I think Isaac might be a top five just defensive player in the league. When he's healthy, he does things that are absurd. And you saw it against Zion tonight, forced him into a bunch of turnovers the size like the weight thing doesn't really matter to him because Isaac is just so long that even if you get your body into him, he just puts his hands up against anybody. And I am just so freaking excited to watch this team that loves each other, that everyone, they are an imperfect team. I'm not sitting here telling you that they're going to win a title or whatever, although they've got a lot of scalps this year with different teams that they've beat, but they just have every guy on this roster knows their role, knows where they fit, and it's all led by Paula, who's a second year guy, who if they finish eight and four, which isn't out of the question, they're going to win 50 games this year.

It's incredible. Them and OKC are both potentially going to be over 50 games. There's a lot to work with there, but I'm going to start with the Isaac piece. So if this was like the Oscars and we had best supporting actors, Isaac's like the best supporting actor defensive player of the year. It's not like he's not eligible for best actor because he doesn't play enough. But when you watch him, especially tonight, there was a couple of times when it was him versus Zion, and I was like, this is like the best moment of the season. I texted you. It's like watching Bill Russell come out of the just play forward for the magic for 15 minutes a game. He is so far ahead of every other forward in the league defensively, it's almost indescribable. And it was interesting watching Zion got him a couple of times like Zion, but he really had to work. He had to twist, pump, fake, move around. It's such a shame that we never got to see this guy actually be like a 35 minutes a game guy. He had so many different injuries, but even this version of him is amazing to watch.

He comes in, your whole team falls into place the moment the bench comes in.

He's like, to continue your analogy, he's like Tom Hardy in Peaky Blinders where every scene he's not in a lot, but every scene he just completely steals it and he's the best guy on camera. And I think back to like four or five years ago when Isaac was like the number one. He was like the big, the hope of the franchise. They still had booch and they still had Aaron Gordon. They were trying to figure out what the heck they were going to do there, and you're like, oh, maybe Isaac can be their franchise player. And fast forward to now when he's just in this perfect role where he doesn't really have to do anything on offense, even though in his last 23, 24 games, he's shooting close to 50% from three. And obviously the defensive stuff is just absurd. He's the perfect, just like swiss army knife that you can just throw at any number one option on any team in an individual game or a playoff series. I said this to you before, if they ever matched up against the Celtics, just watching him wreak havoc on Tatum and just knowing what the Celtics sort of like, postseason struggles, late game struggles, have been, that's a really interesting situation.

And Isaac, the biggest thing is he hasn't stayed healthy. He missed basically two straight years. There was a time in which he wrote more books than he played in playoff games over the NBA, regular season games over, like a two year span. And the weird thing is, obviously we know the stuff about him and he wrote this book and where he stands personally, but the players on the team love him. They like him. It doesn't seem like it's a problem, and they hype him up. And that guy, I said before the season, because I think somebody last year when you guys did the worst contracts, I think, was it Waz that had him? Not the pile on Waz? I love Waz.

You got upset. Yeah. You came in near the end. You were like, wait a second.

But it was like $17 million. And because he missed so many games, they could have gotten out of it. And I was like, what's the harm? When he's right, he's that good defensively, and you're seeing it this know there's.

Two guys in the league that you can watch guys in the other team when they're trapped one on one against them, and you can see their whole brain going like, is this going to be worth it, or am I looking bad if I challenge this guy and it's him? And Wemby, you saw there was a possession in the first half today where McCollum went at him. Isaac stripped him. McCollum got the ball back, and he started going at him again, and he made a couple of moves, and then he was like, fuck this. He just got rid of the ball. He was like, I don't want to hit part of this guy.

He's one of the best guys in the league at blocking dunks. Like, guys will try to just yam on him. And a couple of times this year, I could remember off the top of my head where he legitimately will block a guy trying to hammer on him, and I haven't seen a guy be able to time it as well as he has. It's obviously his size is absurd. He's like 611 and can move really well, but also his timing is just incredible. Help defense. He's like a legitimate specimen. And the fact that he is basically this bench guy that they can unleash, and that's the other secret about this magic team we'll probably get to. It's like their bench is just awesome.

It's awesome.

And Paulo gets kind of knocked because Paulo gets knocked because it's like, oh, well, the team's better when he's off the court. It's like, yeah, because their bench is sick. And that's why.

And that's why I hate on off ratings because they're so dependent on whether your bench is really good or not as good. Like, the Celtics have this problem where there's certain lineups that make Jalen Brown's on off not look that great, but he's having an awesome season. What's interesting about Isaac being, like, the best supporting defensive player of the year is I think there's a real case for Suggs and we're not allowed to vote for guards or talk about them. I was part of the contingent really pushing for Marcus Smart two years ago because I felt like they're the best defense in the league. He's the reason they're the best defense in the league. He can guard all types of guys. Why wouldn't he be it with Suggs? He can't guard four positions, although we've seen him guard bigger guys from time to time. But to me on the good teams, it's him and Gobert as like, having the most consistent night to night, awesome defensive. He, him and Isaac both really wreck offenses, but just, he is the best defensive guard in the league now, and we have a lot of good defensive Guards, but there's no case for him on the Orlando Magic Twitter Reddit circles.

Is there like any sort of Suggs campaign or.

No, no, not really. People are more excited about his Shooting because he's shooting like Four. So I think he shot 20% from three his first year, 30% last year, and he's basically above 40 this year. So he's Jumped 10% every year he's been in the league, which is insane. So I think there's been more talk about his offensive output than because we always were like, oh, yeah, he's a good defense. He's never been this defensively, and he's just locked in, night in, night out. And you could sit here and say like, paulo is obviously the best player on the team, but when they don't have Suggs, he missed a couple of games, like a week. He missed the Knicks game, and.

Their.

Vibe is totally different. They don't have that hunger and that energy. I mean, there was a play earlier in the season against the Raptors where it was like literally three Minutes into the game, he gets a steal, blocks a shot, passes it out, and then on the fast break, he kicks it out to Franz for a wide open three, and he's like beating his chest and screaming to the crowd, literally like three minutes into the game.

And now he's amazing.

He does so when they miss him, when they miss him, they just don't.

Have the same energy.

If we were doing a fantasy draft of guys most likely to cry after they make a game winning three in the playoffs, he would be the first pick. He would be like the wimp and yaba. He's one of the most emotional in a good ways players in the know. I was thinking about all the fun stories with this team because I knew we were going to do this top segment if Orlando won, but the redemption of Suggs is way up there where it was borderline. Is this guy a know? Is this guy even going to be playable offensively? Because his shooting was so bad and it seemed like there was a version of his career where he basically was just Lindsay Hunter, what Lindsay Hunter became on those pistons teams where it's like, this guy's an incredible defensive player and he's just going to be left open by 5ft on offense, and that's who he is. But he flipped that. So you have that piece, you have the, you know, mo bouncing around, ending, man, I love mo, like a really effective bench guy. You have Paolo, and all the time they spent trying to figure out Paolo versus Chet versus Jabari, and for some reason, they wouldn't tell us what they were going to do, right, until the actual.

I still don't understand what they're doing with that. And then you have the redemption stories of not just Isaac, but the fact that Foltz is still out there. All the shit that dude's been through, came back, looked awesome. He's been having knee know for a while, but now he's back, but it's like, this is a really tough team. Not to root.

I mean, this is absurd, but I have to pinch myself that I get to watch this team night in, night out because it was so bad. For years, the Dwight era was fun and obviously they made a finals, and I think there are a lot of people, including myself, think that that could have gone a different way depending on a few different bounces against the Lakers in the finals. But it ended so poorly and like the Stan thing and Dwight and wanting out, and then Dwight's career was never the they they. There were so many different parts of rebuilds over a decade that you're like, oh, this is the time. Like it's Ola depot. Then Aaron Gordon kind of looked good and they were all just sort of like false fronts. I don't want to say that it's like it was all worth it to now, but it honestly might be because this team, yeah, they care and they're all so young. We were joking about Joe Ingles in the offseason being their main free agent signing, but Ingalls has actually been like the perfect guy because he's sort of like that steady veteran who runs the second unit kind of, and just kind of keeps everybody a little bit even keeled.

They still need shooting. I'm sure they're going to try to do some stuff this summer because Caleb Houston is a good player, but I don't know that he's like the long term answer if you're really trying to win the east. That's why I was kind of like, hey, maybe Budy healed is a guy we've talked about. Malik monk this summer is like the perfect guy for the Magic Clay Thompson. There's been a ton of rumors about him as well this summer, which, who knows if that's even, um, but the team is so fun to watch, know they're not the best offensive team, but for a team to have that much of an impact defensively, like on league pass, you're like, I want to watch that team because they're sick on defense, that's pretty rare.

Well, and the prison ball rules that we talk about in the next segment with Austin Rivers, there's been a couple of teams that benefit from that. I would say Orlando is one of them because when they really can dial it up on defense, combined with the fact that you're allowed to get away with some more. The age of the guys Palo at 21, Franz 22, and Suggs is still 22. How is it possible that he's 22? I don't understand. I would have guessed he was like 26. But the Palo stats and I know people have talked about this, but just the guys 21 and under who were like 22, six plus rebounds, five plus assists, it's LeBron, Jordan, Luca and weirdly, LaMello ball, but that's it. Now the stats are a little juiced because this was a little bit of a steroid year until they fixed the rules. But you combine that with the Team USA and how the Team USA staff felt about him as like, oh, we didn't realize Paolo was this. And then the experience he got from that, and it's just pretty clear he's going to be like a major, major, possible first team, all NBA guy down the road.

That's why I think me and magic fans get so defensive. Whenever there's any criticism of him, I mentioned the on off stuff or the efficiency stuff, and you're like, this guy is. He's this young second year in the league and they're going to flirt with 50 wins. I think the team is better than people thought and probably better than I thought. I think literally two weeks into the season, I think on Ryan's pod, I was like, hey, I think they're actually kind of good, and I think maybe the playing would actually be an underwhelming thing. They should just make the playoffs. I think they're actually that. And then they had this lull kind of in the middle of the year where they had some injuries, and that was when Paulo carried them at a couple of games. So they had legit, like g League, twelve men on the bench, guys, like ten day guys giving them big minutes, and he was still winning some games. I think the Kings game was one of them. That was incredibly impressive because he was just doing it on his own. And that's why I think people get so, like, magic fans get so defensive about him is because they just know the amount that is put on his shoulders.

Because I'll be honest with you, I'm a huge Franz guy. I still am. But he's kind of had a weird down season or not a down season, but he went sideways.

Yeah, I would say he went sideways. I don't think he went up a level.

Yeah, his shooting has been kind of weird. He hasn't been as good going to the rim. I'm not super worried about it or anything, but I thought he would take more of a step.

And Paolo has basically just taken all.

That real estate and said, cool, this is my team. Honestly, him and Jalen have really just kind of taken over as the two main guys. And again, those three guys fit so well together, though, man. Jalen, there are games when he scores like six points and there are games like tonight where he goes well over 20 and is like a pretty big offensive threat, and he's really good at picking his spots when he knows the team needs him. But Paolo, night in, night out. I mean, a triple double tonight, his passing is incredible. I think the biggest worry was like, yeah, is he going to be an efficient scorer? Can he be a consistent three point shooter? And I think he's in the process of proving all of those people who doubted that wrong.

Yeah, he's 37% from three. Franz, you mentioned, like, shooting 29% from three, which is bad, really terrible for him. That should be high 30s minimum. So he went sideways, but even maybe a tiny bit back. Biggest wins of the year, Denver. You beat them first week in January at Denver, and then you had that game in Minnesota beginning of February, came back from 17, one by two, which I watched, but that was like, okay, something's here.

You know what was cool about that game, too, is that it wasn't the first time, but it was like the real big impact time when they went with the Suggs, Franz Paulo, Isaac, Wendell Carter Jr. Lineup, which is basically like 4610 guys, and then Jalen Suggs, the best defensive guard in the league. And the way that they closed that game out in Minnesota was one of the most impressive games I've watched in the last couple of years. I don't know that everybody was really plugged into that one, but that lineup is like the Monstars lineup, where they're just so big and long, and then.

They crazy how many teams can do that. Yeah, because New Orleans has their version of that lineup, too. Denver can do the same lineup, basically, with Murray and all tall dudes. But it seemed like one of the themes of the league this year is like, just size everywhere.

Remember when it was like the warriors death lineup, and it was like, small guys that could do, like, now you add five, six inches to all those guys, and those are the real lineups that people are scared of.

Do you know what your record is against Toronto, Washington, Utah, Portland, San Antonio, Detroit, and Charlote, the dregs of the league, undefeated 19 and 19, and gets the seven worst teams in the league. And then against Denver, Boston, Minnesota, OKC, Miami, five and eight. So I look at this big picture, trying to figure out playoffs. We've seen both versions of this. We've seen the young team. Oh, my God. Oh, wait, is there something here? And then the sneaky stats, like, well, actually, they're 19 and against the seven shit teams in the league, and they're kind of 500 against everybody else. Don't get too excited. There's that version, then there's the version of the stuff that this team is good at is the stuff that matters in the playoffs. Can you get stops? Do you have a score that matters? Do you have a five man lineup? That is really kind of transcendent, which I think they do as long as they can get 1718 minutes a game out of Isaac and I look at that Knicks series and I think Orlando is in a lot of ways the team people think the Knicks are where it's like, oh, defense, oh, this team is nitty gritty identity and oh, they have that score and Brunson but Orlando kind of has all the same things with a little more size and you think like with the Knicks, like Ananobi is hurt again, his elbow is like, no, actually we're not sure the elbow is 100%.

It's like, well, it's mid march now and his elbow is still not good. I think that is alarming. We have no idea when Randall's coming back. Orlando might hit the lottery here and get like a banged up Knicks team in round one that I think they could beat.

They're three and one against the Knicks this year. Now, the three wins I think were pre OG, which, who knows? Yeah, maybe they don't have OG in the playoff series. And then the one loss is when we'd mentioned they didn't have, you know, I'm not trying to get too ahead of myself, but they might not win that series, but I'm not scared of the Knicks in the first round. If you're asking me, I think that might be like the best.

You're not scared of the Celtics either, let's be honest. Well, I wouldn't say Orlando fans are like scared of the Celtics and be like, yeah, they'll probably beat us, but guess what, we have their people.

Nothing to lose. Nothing to lose. So if you win that first round series against the Knicks and then you play the Celtics and you know that again, everything I said about Isaac and their record the last couple of years of having beat, I think they were like what, three or four and one against the Celtics last year and obviously they beat them this year, I think you're playing with house money at that point. That would be an incredible series.

I wouldn't feel awesome about seeing Orlando in round one, I'll just say that.

Yeah.

Well, congratulations, man. You're going to get a 50. Thank you.

I'm excited.

I remember when we did over unders before the year, me, Rosala and House and Orlando was like 38 and we were like, man, that seems like a lot. And then we all talked about it, and you were super excited about them. We're like, fuck it. We're all going over for Orlando now. That seems like one of the easiest picks of all time. But back then, it was like, are they a year away? What's this going to look like?

The biggest concern was people like you.

I think house, I don't know about Ryan, like the Hawks. And it was like, hey, we kind of like, obviously the heater in the division, and there was some sneaky, like, weird Charlote buz, and then even house loved the over for the whispers, which is incredible. And they were like, well, we can't pick an over for everybody. One of these teams has to be disappointing. And it obviously ended up being Atlanta. And, yeah, looking back now, I thought they could be 500. I thought that would be fair, and that puts you in the play in range, and that would have been right on track for the expectations in the preseason. But like I said, the first month in, after watching them, they're better than this. If they stay healthy, they should be.

Able to probably get the 6th seed.

Well, what's funny is you have, I think, enough room for a Max guy this summer, right? There's not really any max guys, but there's a couple of guys just thinking ahead. Like, all right, let's say you win round one, potentially, and get to round two, and it's like, oh, my God, the magic. Oh, my God. Look at all their cap space. And it's like, all right, could you overpay Malik Monk and pay him 110,000,000 for three years? It's like, I don't feel like that would be an overpay. He's exactly what they need.

The magic overpaying in free agency, too, has worked out. Remember Richard Lewis? And, like, that's a terrible contract.

They overpaid.

You know what they did? They absolutely did overpay him. And he was the perfect guy for the team, though. He was the reason. Like, he was the perfect guy to play next to Dwight. And then with he do, and they were kind of really early on shooting a bunch of threes back then. They had JJ Reddick, obviously, and Jamir Nelson. Like, that team. He fit perfectly. I don't care what the number is. Malik Monk is an ideal fit for this team in the offseason. Now, I don't know what the Kings deal is, if they can let him go. I know they've got a lot of money tied up, but what's a better spot for him. He's going to get a ton of minutes. He's going to get a ton of shots. He's going to open shots, too. Playing with Paolo and Franz and Jalen. I mean, you could say I think San Antonio has some money, too. So maybe you want to go play with wemby, but if I'm a leak, I'm like the magic.

We could be a top three team.

In the east next year, potentially with him.

All right, we'll take a break, and I think Tate's going to call in because we got to talk about this Calipari collapse. So let's bring him in after the break. Vandals putting the ball in your court for the rest of the NBA season. Right now, new customers get $200 in bonus bets with any winning $5 bet. That's $200 if your bet wins. We are going off the menu on Saturday. Have not decided what the bet is. I want to see the lines and what we could do, but we like to go off the menu on fanduel bets that aren't actually on FanDuel's app. We create the bet, they put a price on it and we're off. I will tell you on my Twitter feed on Saturday what that is. You can bet on the NBA on FanDuel with a wide range of bet types, including quick bets, live same game parlays, player props and more. And by the way, the wait is over. North Carolina FanDuel officially live in the Tara heel State. Visit fanduel.com Slash BS make your first bet a layup FanDuel official sports book partner of the NBA. You must be 21 plus in president select states gaming problem?

Call win 800 gambler or visit theringer.com rg first online real money wage only $10 1st deposit required bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt C terms at sportsbook fandom.com all right, we didn't expect to talk college basketball, but Kentucky loses to Oakland in round one, and this might be it for Calipari. We had to steal Tay Frazier from one shiny podcast, even though he's doing it tomorrow, allegedly with J. Kyle Mann, our resident Kentucky fan at the ringer, who I don't know. I don't know if we see him again, it could be like a shooter and Hoosiers episode where they're just walking around the woods of Kentucky looking for him. It's like Kyle, yeah, Tate, Kentucky has been bad for everybody thinks this is like, oh, perennial contender, but they haven't won the title since 2012, and it's pretty grizzly when you look at the year by year. Is this it for Caliperi?

Yeah.

I want to say it's great to be here. It's great to talk college basketball, Kyle. Man, I am letting him process this moment right now. There's a lot of Kentucky people that are trying to process what just happened. But it's a simple question, Bill. Would you pay $33 million to not have John Caliphari be your head coach? That is the situation that Kentucky is in right now. He signed a lifetime contract in 2019. That would be the number they have to pay him if they want to fire him. But there are ways they can get out of this. He could step into a special advisory role within the athletic department, and they could pay him his $400,000 base salary and then 550 some thousand dollars. So there's ways to figure it out. Or he could go take another job. So there's going to be a lot of big blue nation hair on fire tonight, and John Caliperi will be in the middle of it. But he just did an interview with Evan Waspburn, so he's not afraid of the fire, Bill. This is what he lives for.

We have this year. Round one out. Last year, round two, 2022, round one out, didn't make it in 21 20. Tournament was canceled. Then elite eight, sweet 16, elite eight, round of 32, final four, and was the runner up in 14. We're going in the wrong direction. Cerudi. Cerudi. Give Tate your caliperi theory.

Yeah, please.

I texted this to Bill because it's a simple question. Between Caliperi and Aaron Rogers, are there any two guys, anybody else in this group that their one title is doing more work than those two guys? They're like propping them up to this level. If they didn't have a title, what would the conversation around and Aaron Rodgers be?

Right? Anthony Davis, he should write him a text every single day and just thank him for the legacy saving game that he had, that national championship game. And obviously he did it as a one and done guy. But, yeah, I mean, Caliperi, right now, he's selling the $3 billion in NBA contracts in his world. He's like, I've been up front. It's about getting guys to the league. Look at all the all stars we have. We have so many all stars. The most all stars, you know what I mean? He talks in that kind of vernacular, and it hits when it's in the offseason. But when you're in season and you lose in the first game, I just think it leaves a bad taste in your mouth. And now people forget they're getting farther and farther away from 2012, and I feel like it doesn't have the same cachet that it once did with that.

Fan base, especially Tate.

There are 18 year olds in Kentucky who don't remember what it's like to watch Kentucky win a championship. Right? I've said this over and over again with Caliperi. I will stand by this. This is one of my rules in life with coaching, when your coach always seems like he's about to have an aneurysm, especially in close games, and it's a game like today where there's three minutes left and your coach is like, basically the guy from scanners with his head's about to blow up. I just think that affects the players. I don't know. I don't think that works like you think about Brad Stevens. When he was at Butler, Brad Stevens was always, like, the calmest guy in the gym. And that whole way to motivate young people who are harder and harder to motivate in general, especially at that age, and to motivate them by doing the screaming, flying off the handle thing. I don't know, sweetie. Do you think that works in 2024? Is that still a thing that works?

What I don't understand is we've known.

Cal has not been a good coach for a long. Like, he's. He's a recruiter. There's a lot of in game stuff with him that people have had for years. They haven't been able to figure out to just get him, like, a sidekick who could just be the guy who coaches the games for the most part. And Cal could be, like, the face of the program and the recruiter because in the nil era, they were doing nil basically before it was legal, obviously, what it seemed like. And so this shouldn't be new to them. They're still doing the system is the same. But we've been, like, decades here where it's like, oh, yeah, Cal just kind of can't coach. He just knows how to get guys in the building. How have we not been able to fix that?

Is that fair, Kate? Is it fair to say, like, cal kind of can't coach?

I mean, he kind of had a good year in the sense that he tried to modernize what was happening there, but he has these old ticks. Even before the tournament, he's like, I might put out two seven footers out there, and then the big blue nation's like, oh, my God. He's doing it again. He's going back to his old ways, and that's unfortunate. You know what I mean? I would say he's more of a recruiter, right, than an X's and O's guys. But Greg campy throws his own at him tonight. He struggles. There's one guy, obviously, Jack Golkey, who's just going insane. Ten threes. This guy doesn't even take another type of shot. He's just taking threes. But they can't get the ball out of his hands. They have Antonio Reeves get on him for a little bit to help, but there's lots of coaching decisions that you could point to. But honestly, Reed Shepard in this game was not who he's been all year. I texted Kevin O'Connor this. I think he wants to play more college basketball. That's my galaxy brain. Take on the situation. He loves Kentucky too much, Bill. He doesn't want to go to the NBA.

He doesn't want to be a top ten pick.

He's self sabotaged.

Yes. He wants to go back to Kentucky. He loves it too much. He's not ready for the NBA lifestyle. We have unfinished business, Perry.

Yeah.

He can point to that and say, like, I just want to go back to Lexington. So maybe that's caliperry saving grace. If he could get Reed Shepard to come back.

I don't know, though.

Well, as you know, I barely watch college basketball, but I love the draft, and I pay attention to all the draft stuff we do. And there was one point where both Kentucky guards were in the top three of one of our mock drafts. And I'm watching today, and I'm like, I know that's one of the guys. Where's the other guy? And I'm looking, and it was Reed Shepard who just wasn't playing in the last four minutes of the game. He was, like, number three in one of the mock drafts we had. But I'm not saying that was a controversial thing. I think people really felt like he was one of the best prospects. So, is this, like, a Marva Williams situation? What was happening?

I'm just saying, if you had never seen Reed shepherd play and you watched the game tonight, you would say how much Paola is involved in this man's campaign to go top five in the NBA draft. It is very strange, but he has great hands. He has, like, stick them hands where it's like the ball just feels like. It's, like, magnetic touch with him. But tonight, he was just all over the place, threw the ball away, took a really terrible shot. There was a guy in Arizona.

That.

Would always do that, like just dribble up and just jack a three. Just a terrible shot. Just think, he hasn't done all year. So I can see the frustration from the Reed shepherd people that believe he's going to. I mean, KFC had him number one in a mock. I mean, he obviously has the talent, but tonight was not a good display, which is why I'm saying he's going back to Kentucky. He just wants to play at his dad's school.

Was it a number one in mock drafts of bench players and must win games of the season or I got to go back and read that again. I like the YouTube videos of him and stuff, but, yeah, Seruti, one of the great things about March Madness is you can have a situation where you have all these great players, but then all of a sudden when things start going sideways, you basically just watch teams lose their minds, the amount of pressure, and especially when the crowd goes in. And it's like when I was growing up and I remember the first years of March Madness when it was just on CBS and it was like, this is amazing. Oh, my God. And then there's another game and, oh, they're switching in this game. But now there's like this four plus decades of March Madness experience we all have as fans being in the building for these games. And you could kind of see that Oakland thing even as it was folding, it was like, oh, I've seen this game before. This fucking guy's going to make every three. Kentucky is going to get tight. Cal Perry is going to fucking lose his mind.

Do you almost feel like this stuff becomes preordained, Cerudi, because we've seen models.

Of these think, I mean, Tate, you would know this. It seems like there's so much more randomness. I mean, the tournament was always kind of random where there'd be all these huge upsets, and now it just feels like seeding doesn't even matter. Last year we had, what was it? The top seed was Yukon as a four seed in the final four. Like, anybody can kind of beat anybody. And then these teams with these 50 or seniors where you're just like, oh, yeah, these guys have been playing together for five years versus a group of guys that have been there for four months together. And even less than that, I don't ever know what to make of it. One thing that I've kind of noticed, though, is whenever it seems like everybody is all in on an upset now there's too much information. Like Craig horrible just talked about this in fantasy a lot where it's like there aren't any sleepers in fantasy because too many people talk about it. It's just impossible to find them now because everybody's on the same page. I kind of feel like it's the same way in March Madness where everybody likes this upset, but it just doesn't happen because too many people end up being on it.

And then morehead, random one.

That was the big one. Morehead, a good one today. And it was like tied at halftime or they were up at halftime, then all of a sudden they lose by 16.

Yeah, that's just how it goes. I mean, New Mexico is the Trinity pick. Mcneese State was the big one today. Will wade at McNeese State. I mean, they beat up a lot of teams that they played, like the University of women in Mississippi during the season. So they had a really stacked schedule and that's why they look so good. And then they played a real team in Gonzaga today. Didn't go their. It's every single time in college basketball you feel like it's a sure thing. It can go the opposite way. But I mean, Jack Golki today we had Doug Eder with St. Peter's a couple of years ago, right? We keep seeing these heroes that come out of college basketball from these smaller schools. So it's always a fun trend. My dad today said that Golkie looked like Billy Donovan.

Bill.

So a nice one to throw back to the 87 province.

Wow, that was such a fun team. I love that. Right, Rick, did anything happen today that made you change your mind on who might win the tournament?

Not today, but Illinois impressed me. I think Illinois is going to potentially. They got du Kane in the second round, which I think is a nice draw for them. That was a fun upset du kane had over Byu. BYU I struggled to believe in just because they take more threes than twos and there's just so much variance with that team. Jackson Robinson did his best in that game. But yeah, Du Kane being a draw for Illinois, I think that opens up the East a little bit for them. So Illinois stood out to me a little bit.

Are you still talking to me after I bet on Duke to make the final four at five to one?

Look, I've become a bigger man these days, Bill. I had Kyle Philipowski on my podcast.

You turned 30. You're like mature, Kate.

Now, I know people are upset with me that I was so nice to him. Bill, I don't have the fire of a 22 year old that just got out of school. You know what I mean? I just love the game, and I want to talk about it, even if it is with Kyle Philipowski and he's telling me about icy hot, you know what I mean? I make the best of it.

Seruti. One of the first things Tate and I bonded on, even before he was producing my pod, when we just were talking in my driveway, was his just pure hatred of Duke and the mythology of coach K. And it was really 50% of our conversations for two to three years. The dream team documentary was, I don't even think you were working for us when that came out and basically got our relationship going again because we were like, what the fuck is this?

It brought us back together. That's why I love him.

One of the saddest moments of my life was when I think I was a senior in high school. I think I had just graduated. It was the NBA draft. And obviously I grew up. I grew up in Connecticut. I was kind of a Yukon fan. I didn't go to Yukon, but I hated Duke. And the Magic drafted JJ Reddick in the first round. I think it was like 14 overall. And I'm like, are you kidding me? Now I have to watch JJ Reddick play on my favorite team. And the irony there is JJ became one of my favorite players of all time with the Magic. He was awesome by that run. But I was so depressed, mad as an 18 year old, being like, great. Now I fruit for JJ Reddick on my NBA team.

This blows.

Yeah. I mean, JJ, though. What a time at Duke. I don't think that could exist in today's environment. The JJ Reddick, like, the hype that he brought to these places, the hate that he took on, the signs in the crowd, I mean, especially Maryland games. I mean, it was like a gauntlet. I just feel like that was of a certain. I mean, the greatest image makeover maybe ever. I mean, goes from the ultimate villain that everybody hates to now he's, like, on ESPN and he's everywhere. So good for him.

Don't count him out yet. He could still become a villain.

Okay.

Can't trust him. And Adam Morrison took more shit in the mid 2000s. Like, if anyone took 5% of the shit those guys took in 2024, we would quit. It'd be a referendum.

Yeah.

We have a sports intervention, for sure. Congress would get involved.

Yeah.

Before we go, who else is in? The one title completely changed the perception of you, and you've been dining on it ever since club. Would you put Sean Payton in there? Because I think I would.

Not a terrible one.

I like Sean Payton. I feel like unfortunately, he's a guest and a friend of the podcast doc Rivers. Right. I mean, that obviously having the 2008 title, that really helps his conversation.

I think it's fair. I'm trying to think, are there any other.

Dirk?

Yeah. That title was so great. I almost feel like he went through literally every league on that.

I agree.

But if he doesn't have a title, we're talking about him as a completely different player today.

I think Kyrie hitting the shot in 2016. Like, if that doesn't happen, his career is discussed in a completely different way. That's another one. But yeah, it is funny. One title could change everything. Take give us three players to watch before we go in March madness.

I like it. Let's think about some of these guys. I mean, Kansas is the team I was excited for. Kevin McCullough, miles rice at Washington state. I hope that they can win against straight tonight. That'll be a good one. NC State DJ Burns. He's a refrigerator that has ballerina feet. That is what they're calling him. He's an incredible character. It looks like he should be playing defensive line. So hopefully NC State can win. And then Dalton Connectville. If you haven't watched Dalton Connect, Tennessee. Six foot six.

I like that guy.

He's going to be a lottery pick, top ten guy. And we've seen Kevin Durant and Rick Barnes lose in the second round before. So that worries me about Tennessee and Dalton connect. But if he can get to the sweet 16, I feel like America is going to see very quickly. He's one of the best players in the country, if not the best player.

Tate, where's nephew Kyle's college basketball knowledge at this point? Should you give it like a C plus, B minus? Where is it?

It's very Marist and St. John's oriented, which is awesome. You know what I mean? We get a lot of Rick Smith's talk. You know what? Yeah. A lot of east coast, a lot of, you know, I'm not a northeast guy. I'm from the south, obviously, tobacco road town. So we got that covered. I got the p and w covered now. Been all over Wazoo all year and then obviously being out in LA, so we're trying to get it all covered as best we can. Nephew Kyle, though, he's working hard and he's doing the Lord's work over here, so we appreciate him.

Saruti, thanks for coming. On. Congrats on. Just a magical night for you, Tate. Always great to have you on the podcast. You were here from the beginning. Great to see you. Enjoy Las Vegas. And we will be back after this with Austin Rivers. All right, we got the media mogul. Austin Rivers is here. We're taping this on Thursday morning, west coast time. He's here doing ESPN stuff. You're like a talking head now. Did you see you? I turned on ESPN. You're just arguing with people doing takes. Who's less likely to make the playoffs, Lakers or warriors? You're back, baby.

I argue with Perk too much. It's been interesting, man. I'm trying to not only stay busy, but be effective navigating this media space. It's one thing to just be on TV and stay busy. It's another to really know what you want out of this space. And I don't want to just do stuff to do stuff. I'm trying to do it with a purpose and understand where I want to be four or five years from now. So you get to sit back your first year right now and essentially get to look at different guys in the space and see how they've done it and be like, do I want to try to do it like that guy? Or do I want to be like, RJ is a little bit more funny and he's quirky. And Richard Jefferson can be a guy that maybe does American Idol hosting one day because that's kind of like his niche. And JJ is a little bit more serious and he tries to come across as sophistication, know, wants to be in the front office or a coach one day. That's that route. Then you got other guys, even in other sports, like Michael Strahan's did football and then also does good Morning America.

It's like, do you want to do outside of basketball? Do you want to just be only basketball? It's like all these different type of ways you could go about the media. So I'm trying to figure that out right now, what I want to work towards. So it's been fun, man. I'm thankful.

Well, you also have the awesome podcast you're doing with us. Off guard, of course. So you have the podcast where you go long form. You have the TV side where you're getting reps. You're also learning how to do these segments that they can cut into different things on Espin.com. What about games? Have you done a game yet?

No, that's next on the list for next season. That's a must for me if I'm going to be doing TV and amongst other things, I want to be doing games. So that's my main focus, to be completely honest, I love doing NBA today and the get up and first take. I have no problem continuing to do those type of shows, but I do want to navigate towards play by play broadcasting in terms of being, well, not the play by play guy, but the guy that provides color nonetheless.

The color analyst. Yeah, that's. That's the most fun job. I did a couple NBA games when I worked for them, and it just flew by, and it was super fun. And you're like, I can't believe this is a job.

Yeah, exactly. That's kind of like the closest thing to playing, if we're being honest. It's like you go out there and compete and play basketball, then you're like, wait, I'm getting paid to do this? Whereas, like you just said, it flew by for you. I'm sure you're there, courtside, best seat in the house, middle court, watching the game, and you're just talking and getting to provide that color. I don't see anything else that could bring me closer to the game, so that's something I want to do for sure.

You know what's interesting? Not the best seat in the house.

Really?

Well, because when you're in the middle like that, you're straining, you're blocked by stuff. You can't see either corner, basically. But it's funny.

Yeah.

Because those are the most expensive seats, but they're actually, like, there's whole chunks of the court you can't see. So you end up looking at the TVs, really, to kind of going back and forth in the TV and then what you can see in front of your eyes.

Wow. Okay. So you're putting me on something. I didn't know this.

Yeah. I've sat in different spots. The best seat that I think replicates what you have as a player is if you're under the basket, because then.

You can see the court. Yeah.

You see everything. You can see the guys cutting. You can see the three on ones or the three on two, stuff like that.

All right.

I could talk about this all day. Let's talk some hoops.

Let's talk.

You talked about ant the last time you were here.

Yeah.

You've talked about ant a bunch of times on your pod because you played with him. You watched him when he was a little, like, baby potential ant. He was just this growing little. He might be something. Oh, there's something here. Oh, this guy might be special. And now it feels like him and Tatum are becoming the under 30 american faces of the league, which is a completely different stratosphere. I talked about this a little on my Tuesday pod about, I don't know how you leave them off Team USA now, when you think Curry's 35, LeBron's 39. The best players in the league right now are probably Yanis and Yokich. Both of them are not american. And you think, like, long term, it's Tatum who's a little older. It's Edwards. It's booker. If you're just talking american players only. Did you think this was in play for ant even two years ago? Did you see this?

Did I did. Truthfully. I really has. For one, he has a passion and love for the game, right? That's essential. And I know people hear that and they think, well, yeah, he plays in the NBA. You'd be surprised. All right? And you know, from covering sports and covering the NBA, a lot of these guys do not love it. There's a difference between liking it, loving it, and being obsessed with it, and ants on that line where he's flirting with being obsessed with it. He's had to learn that. I think his professionalism has grown tremendously since when I first started knowing about him and then playing with him until even till now, in the past two, three years, you could see it coming. You just thought, okay, he has to clean up this. He has to clean up that. Can he do it? Will he sacrifice this? Does he understand his potential? Sometimes the person himself doesn't understand. It takes someone from the outside to really see it, you know what I mean? He thinks he's good. And obviously ants, like, I'm the best at this, I'm the best at that. And he says that, but do you really believe it?

Because if you believe it, you have to buy into it. You have to sacrifice, man, like your friends, girls, this, that shit's got to go. You know what I mean? And I know it's appealing, but it has to. And you're starting to see him become this guy because he had the personality, right? We all fell in love with Ant's personality. He's funny. He's got a great smile. He's a good looking dude. He's strong. His game is appealing. He jumps out of the gym. The dunk he did the other night was one of the best dunks I've seen since DeAndre Jordan's dunk on Brandon Knight. I mean, I haven't seen anything like that since. And this was even more impressive because DJ seven foot Brandon was six two. With all respect, John Collins is a dunker himself. In a six 9610. This guy jumped foot in front of the free throw line, just cleared him. This was nutty stuff and people don't even realize he didn't have the ball in his hand. So he didn't even get the time it. He caught it in the middle of the floor and just turned and jumped. That is insane.

But he has it, man. And you're seeing it now come together. I think there's a couple of guys that you're seeing it happen faster than the team even thought. I think even Victor women Yama right now as we speak is playing so well that even the spurs out there a three, four years out, they got to do a good job this summer of getting guys around him, you know what I mean? He's playing this well without a point guard. He's doing all this. They need someone to set this guy up and help him. And that's where Ant has been blessed. Tim Conley is one of the best execs in the NBA. He built the exact team he just built in Denver in a couple of years. Look what he's built in Minnesota already. And he has a cast of athletic young players around him with some savvy mean. They're dangerous, man. And Ant's Sky's the limit, bro. He has the work ethic, he's got the skill, he's got the potential, he's got the aura, he's got the style, he's got the swag, he's got everything there to be like this guy. So there's still some things he's got to get better at, but he's on his way.

Self confidence, he has that too.

It's supreme. It's almost delusional supreme. Even though he's really good, he thinks he's like the greatest ever. Sometimes you have to be like that. Delusional confidence is, if it's real, it's real. You know what I mean? It doesn't even matter if it's true or not. If you really believe it, he believes it. He used to say things to me when I was there playing with him, just like. And I'd be like, you're great, man, but relax, you know what I mean? But he authentically believes these things about himself. I'm the best one MBA, he can't guard me. I give him 50. I just like, bro, that guy's ten time this. He's won four rings, bro. We haven't got out the first round. He doesn't care. That's who he legitimately is. And now you're starting to see it. So now the world's behind him, which is even more dangerous. Once everyone gets behind you, that snowball starts rolling, anything can happen. You know what I'm saying? So, yeah, it's interesting to watch. I'm very happy for him.

I don't think Minnesota reporters do a good enough job of just asking him weird questions like, hey, Anne, if you're on Team USA, do you think you could also do the 100 yard dash and maybe medal just on the side? Because I think he'd be like, you're right. I should probably think about that. How do I apply?

He would put it in consideration as if he has the option. He would absolutely put it in consideration. If you asked him to do like the 100 yard dash, he would think about, I could probably do that. You're out of your mind. But he would.

Long jump. Hey, Anne, have you ever watched the long jump? Do you think you could win like the bronze? He'd be like, well, let me see.

Knowing him, anything with jumping, I know probably in his mind he thinks he could probably do it. To his credit, he is such a freak athlete that you could argue maybe I don't know about long jump because there's like a technique to that. But maybe the high jump, if he got the skills right, he's a little heavy for high jump. Those guys are light, but nonetheless, he could get it done.

Well, the Vikings don't really have a quarterback right now. They signed Sam Darnold. I would love for somebody to ask, ant, have you ever thought about just playing quarterback for the Vikings and also trying to be in the Timberwolves at the same time? Because I guarantee he's thought about it.

He probably has. He thinks he's like a five sport legend capability. I mean, that's how he views himself. I want someone to ask, hey, Ant, if you're on Team USA with LeBron and Steph and Devin and Tatum and whoever else is on that team, you're down one to 5 seconds left. Do you get the shot? I would love to hear what he would say.

Well, here's the other thing, and this is why I'm not know. This is a guess, but maybe this is why he hasn't officially been named to the team yet. Would he be okay coming off the bench on Team USA? Because it would be like, I assume Booker would be the starting two guard, but if you think, well, I'm sure that's what they've thought in their head. And he's the perfect team USA guy. But if you're ant, you're like, I'm the best player in the league. How am I not starting on Team USA? And he's 22 and would he be cool? Just be like, I'm just here to help. I'll stay off the bench. I'll come off the bench. I don't even know if he would be wired that way.

That's a good question. And it's not even like, I don't want to because to your point, we're not trying to phrase it like he's selfish or anything like that. No, it's more just a confidence thing. Yeah, it's just a confidence thing. To where I don't think Ant would be okay with Devin starting in front of him. I think if it was like a obviously LeBron, Steph, these guys that have the catalog they have. I know Ant. He wouldn't mind something like that. Those guys don't play his position. We're talking about shooting guard. I know for sure he thinks he's better than Devin 100%. And I know he takes pride playing against him and guarding him. To his credit, ant is a two way player. He could defend much better than Devin. It's not even close. They're not even close on defensive end. Offensively, Ant has way more capability than Devin as well. He could finish at the basket better than Devin. That's not even close. He's way more explosive. Obviously, Devin's not really an explosive guy. Ant is his finishing at the basket, his handle, his quickness, all better than Devin. Devin is a master technician.

He is all just drill work. I mean, he is straight, just refined score. And he's a little bit more cleaner than Ant. He's a little bit more consistent than Ant. You know what I mean? He gets to his spots better than Ant. He knows how to play at a different pace and know when to score a little bit better than Ant. He's been in the league longer, so that's probably the reason. Know he is a scoring machine and he's a technician with know. So that's the difference between him and has a lot of ups on Devin. Devin is a little bit more refined, though, and a little bit more consistent, more polished. Exactly. So that's probably why, like you said, he's already gotten the offer on the USA team from what I know, right. And if Devin and Anne are both on the team, Devin would probably start originally. I don't know if that would last. You know what? You know, right now I would have to put him as a starter as well, but would probably want to go get that. I mean, we saw it last year with started, you know, this guy.

The next thing you know, Halliburton was playing well and then they kind of mixed up some know, I don't know if there's ever like a solid starting five that you have to commit to because defensively, what ant can do on the ball is just like a different level.

Well, the coaches, I don't think, were prepared for the possibility last summer that the best guy coming out of that whole thing was going to be Edwards.

No, I don't think anybody.

I think within like three weeks, they're like, holy shit.

You remember before FIBA, they were saying, like, who's going to lead him in scoring? Our go to guy is going to be Brandon Ingram. That they were like putting that in the air. Like that was the guy that is going to be their score. This, this and that. Ant went there and within camp of two weeks, Steve Curry was like, yo, this guy's unbelievable. I mean, this is coming from with, you know, Stephen Curry every day and play with Jordan and the guys that he's seen play. He was in awe of and even had the comparisons to Michael. He was like, he has this it factor that I have not seen in a long time. He's like, there's just something about the just. He is a special dude. And in terms of, like, when he walks in the gym and the energy goes up, it's every day, man, he walks in there and he's smiling, he's laughing, the music's playing and he's competing. He goes at you. He just has it. He has that. I think he needs to be more of an asshole, personally. There's a different level of killer, and I would like to see him reach that.

I know it's inside him. Sometimes I think he's too little loose with it, with his. You know, when you talk about Michael and guys, we often compare him to them. Those guys were not only assholes on the basketball court, they were absolutely psychopaths when it came to their regiment routine, what they ate, how they slept, how much film they watched, how early they woke up. It was personal. Even with their own teammates, they had to outwork them. It was all personal. That is that level that Ant needs to get to. That's that difference. Once he gets there and he can push himself to let go of everything else and just dive into it fully, I think Ant will be the best player in the NBA. Until then, it's going to be other guys in the mix. One minutes. Luca Shay. I mean, Yoka is the best player in the NBA, but yeah, whatever.

Well, yeah, what you're laying out here is mid twenty s to late 20s. Yes.

His peak that like 28, 27, 29. He should be getting another. That's MVP.

He's in the all natural talent, crazy athletic ability, and still has the drive and the confidence stage of things, which is a really fun stage. But when you think about them, big picture, because I think it's going to be Denver and Boston. I'm not unveiling a massively creative theory on that one. They're heavy favorites. To be the finals for somebody to beat Boston or Denver, it's not going to be, we have a better team than you as much as some of these other variables, which is like, I'm not afraid of you. I can outscore. Oh, you're doing this. Well, we have this guy, and I saw it when Boston played at Minnesota and Aunt really got going, but it was the swagger that he was carrying himself where all of a sudden he believed he was the best guy in the game. And sometimes the playoffs comes down to that is like, who's the best guy in the game? Jokic is going to be the best guy in every game, but you at least need somebody on the other side to be like, all right, he's the best guy in the league, but I can match him.

And I do think Edwards thinks that. So you got that piece. You have the prison ball rules that we have now, which I love for the entire league, which I think is great for Minnesota.

It's great for everybody.

But yeah, especially them being such a defensive team.

You're absolutely right with physical swings and know the fact that maybe Gobert is not in foul trouble as much. Then the other thing, you did a great podcast with Gobert, who I've never been a fan of, and I actually liked him a lot more after I heard the podcast with you.

Appreciate it.

And the biggest lesson I got from it was he not only was not healthy last year, and you saw that firsthand, so you knew that wasn't like bullshit, but he was really banged up in all these different ways. And I'll always think they gave up way too much in the trade. I don't know who they were bidding against. But then watching him last year, this is like, this is going to be one of the worst trades in the history of the league. And I think he seemed wary of that from the podcast, like, he was aware of what everyone was saying, but the way he came back this year, I didn't realize how hurt until I heard you talking about it. It's one thing for him to say about it, but you were like, yeah, when I saw the shit you had to go through just to play a backup to back, and I was like, really? That's how bad it was. But talk about that, though.

I mean, people forget, like, dude, the size of these guys go bear is humongous, man. They got big bones, they're heavy.

Seven foot one.

Yeah. There's just so much that could go wrong. So for me, I got a tight back. It's 6364. These guys, man, they constantly have stuff going on or going wrong. And Gobert is a guy who takes a lot of physicality. He's a big. Guys are always coming at him, driving at him. He had to deal with so much last year just in terms of prep, especially, like, on back to backs, just to be able to go out there and compete at whatever percent healthy he was. And to any player in the league that puts on a Persona, like, they don't care what the media says or they don't hear it, they're lying. It's unavoidable. It's unavoidable. Everyone has a phone, everyone sees it. You don't even have to be on social media, and you hear it and feel it and see it. But especially a guy who's on social media, he definitely sees all of it. And I know this because every time I'll say something, he dms me whether he agrees with me or not. If I say anything defensively, like, man, I think guards should win more defensive players of the year. It's a guards league.

We got to go out there and guard Steph and get hit by a million screens, blah, blah, blah, blah. He dm me ten minutes after I dropped that pod and was like, I agree, but this is the problem with that. Biggs just going right into him being like, he hears, man. And he saw that everyone was knocking him last year. Even Minnesota fans would boo him at certain times, and you could feel it. And this guy was like, battling these injuries, and you fell for him. A lot of people don't like Rudy because they don't understand him or know him. I think it's also a cultural thing. He's not from. So, like, he also balances trying to maybe overcompensate in other areas to be liked or be respected, you know what I mean? And that can come across the wrong way. But when you know him, you know he's like the nicest guy in the world. He's a complete professional in how he treats his craft. And then now you're seeing the success and the impact he has on defense. It's inevitable. He's one of the candidates for another defensive player of the year. If he wins his fourth, he'd be like the likes of Batumbo and a lot morning and like, well, we're talking about some legendary defenders here, so his respect is overdue, quite frankly.

And then to your point of even what you're talking about with Ant and going against guys like Tatum, that game that you just brought up, there was a time where his switch turned, where he started guarding Tatum and getting in front of him, and then there was like a loose ball where he was like getting physical with them as a jump ball and he ripped it from him. I think it might have been Jalen Brown, and Jalen tried to push him and he pushed him back. And Ant was like, bro, I'm the best player in the court, man. He feels these things. That's 100% him. And my only question with Boston is they have to get past that mental hurdle of toughness that I've seen. Like you said, the playoffs have role players. These guys all make differences. It's a huge deal. But when it comes down to it, in a possession by possession game and it slows down, the team that has a player that thinks he's the best on the floor has the best chance to win. And Jimmy Butler last year versus Boston punked them on a level. He went there and was just like, I'm going to outwork you all.

I'm just going to bully you all. And they won. They went into Boston, they're lucky. Even went to seven. They're up 30. I got to give Boston credit for coming down, coming back from 30, that's a lot. And then they went into Boston and got the seven. And that is only done when the best player on the floor feels like he's just going to go in that game. There's no way Jimmy was going to that game. And he was like, we're losing. Actually said it before the game, he like, we will not lose. I will win tomorrow. And he went there and won. So that's where I need to see Tatum go. That's where I need to see Ant go. And I'm talking about consistent, not just when you're hitting shots and everything's going well. Tatum, I need you to be three for 15 in the fourth and not rely on your jumper. I need you to get to the basket and get the freedom. I need you to take over the game. Still, it can't be when it's convenient. You know what I mean? I need him to be a killer at all times.

That's that level of play, that Boston, that's what Boston will win the championship. If Tatum does that, if he has that mindset, they will win.

My fear with them is that their 2016 thunder similarities where the more you ratchet up the defense on that thunder team, they would start making mistakes. It got harder for Durant. Durant's stats on those last four games or last three games were really rough, and I've seen teams do that to Boston. Minnesota is a worst case scenario defensive matchup for Boston because they have wings that can really attack Tatum and Brown and the know, I obviously watch all the celtic games in Milwaukee last night. Milwaukee throws this zone at him, which I was really surprised Doc did. I actually don't think he should have played that card in some meaningless regular season game. Like, what do they care if they won that game? But he showed them that zone and Boston had a lot of trouble with it. And now it's like, cool. Now we know for the next time we got to do this, this and this. I would have waited, but it worked. And you still can see teams throw weird things at Boston and they start to get tight. I can't tell you how many times they've been up by 20 this year, but I think it's like 34, 33.

They've been up by 15, like 44, 45. But there has been times when all of a sudden the other team starts crawling back. You could say, oh, that's the league now. This is what happens. But something does when teams can get them into, oh, shit, Tatum. All right. Try to go one on one with somebody and you can kind of feel things slipping away a little bit for them. Minnesota can do that to them.

Absolutely. They have length at every position, with exception of the point guard. But Mike's a savvy point guard and you can always pied him or put him on somebody else. And he's not a bad defender. He might not be a good one, but he's not a bad one. And he's got good hands and good feel. But you then add ant, who's an excellent defender. Obviously, you got know they need Carl back, especially just McDaniels is the X factor on defense for them. I mean, he's the guy that has to show up consistently. He has length. He has size, bro. They're long. They're big as hell. When they have their full lineup, when it's Gobert, Jaden, Ant Michael. I mean, they're.

This is. This is what New Orleans did to the Clippers. Rosala and I talked about it Sunday when they went crunch time. They took CJ out and they put Nance on up there, and they just had Trey Murphy, Nance and Zion and Ingram and Herb Jones. And it's like everybody was six, seven and up.

Yeah, they're humongous. That team is another team that's problematic in the west. Was Zion playing the way he's playing right now? Bro, I haven't seen Zion. I'm so happy for the dude, just because the past couple of years have been such a weird, weird for him, man. He's had the eating issues and the weight issues, and it's like things that frustrate people because it's like these are things so controllable, you know what I mean? We're talking about his weight, you know what I mean? We're not talking about like a bad this or that. He has torn ACL and he can't get healthy again or this is that. And he's had injuries, but a lot of them has just been due to his weight, you know what I mean? So it's like, it's been frustrating for basketball fans, and then he's had to stuff off the court and all that. And now it just seems like he's gotten to a place where that noise is kind of silenced because people stop talking about him. And we moved on. We moved on to Victor and aunt and Shay and all these guys that these younger players were talking about.

Zion's kind of floated under the radar here. I think that allowed him time to just breathe and get back into a decent shape to. We're now seeing him pop off the floor like that dunk he had in Brooklyn the other night. I haven't seen Zion jump like that since Duke.

Well, Winhorse said he's 25 pounds thinner. I don't know. He's lost some weight.

We got to take a break.

We to got take a break. I want to talk about Zion, a bunch of stuff. So we were talking about Zion before we went to break, and in the west right now, we got Oklahoma City, Denver and Minnesota, and then a little.

Bit of a drop.

And now we're in the Clippers, Pelicans, Kings, Dallas, Phoenix, Lakers, warriors. If I had to say, hey, Austin, most dangerous team, Clippers, New Orleans or Phoenix, as we head into the actual playoffs. Forget the regular season. I don't even care what seeds those teams end up in. Clippers, New Orleans, Phoenix. Who are you more afraid of round by round? If I'm one of the top three.

Man, due to their death, I have to go Clippers. I have to go Clippers. I know the strange comments were made by Paul the other day when he said Cortono identity, which was really weird. They went 25 and five at one point when they were like just crushing. So they weren't saying anything about identity then, but all things considered in a playoff series, healthy. Kawhi Leonard, who we know when it comes down to like a superstar versus superstar matchup, he usually outplays everybody. Even in those two games last year versus Phoenix, man, before he shut it down, the whole playoffs, the first two games, he was the best player on the court. Right? So you have Kawhi Leonard, Paul George, you have James Harden, who's in the perfect position. He doesn't have to play pressure basketball. He's not the guy who's going to take the game winning shot. He's not even the second guy who's going to take the game winning shot. He gets to just float around and be like this point guard and play loose, for Christ's sakes. Last night he contested a shot of his own teammate just for fun. This is the most loose I've ever seen James play since his Houston prime days.

And now the pressure is much less on him. So you have him. They have so much scoring, man, but they have so much scoring, they don't even play. Guys know bones Highland doesn't even get like, consistent minutes because they have so many guards and so much scoring. Brandon Boston's a talented scorer who yet has really got to have like a consistent chance because he can't see the floor because all these guys ahead of him. Russell will be back as a backup. He'll be solid for a backup point guard in the playoffs. Norman Powell's a huge x factor for him. He provides shooting and scoring. They have decent size. Daniel Tyce, Mason Plumley, Zubach in a playoff series, man, they got a lot. They're pretty deep. They're well coached. They have a closer. That's not a team that you'd want to have to beat four times out of seven games, in my opinion, Phoenix has been too up and down for me.

Can I give you a clipper counter?

Yeah.

Ten and ten in their last 27 and eight in their last 15. I don't think prison ball rules help them.

Well, it doesn't because they don't have guys of that makeup. They definitely don't. You're correct on that point. They have one guy that might help, and that's Kai. From the aspect of just the way he likes to, well, go through and.

Play Harden hard and bad, well, that's the worst case.

That's worse.

He's probably a ten out of ten worst case scenario if he's not going to get the veering into the other lane. Foul call. Paul George isn't great, but I wouldn't put him in the top echelon of guys totally affected by this, but I don't think it's great. He's not the most physical player their size compared to some of the other teams, you'd probably pick pretty much every other contender except OKC, and then Kawhi would be the one that I think would be helpful. But I thought the old rules really helped them because if it's more of a pickup game, they're better off. That would be my biggest fear with them. I don't like the 20 game sample size of going ten and ten makes me nervous.

They've been playing some weird basketball, which is ironic, considering. Just like after all, Star break is usually when teams tap into full form and you're seeing the team put out their best product or at least attempt to ten. And ten is definitely something you have to look at and be like, what's going on here?

And the quotes. I'm glad you mentioned the Paul George quote, because when guys are talking about identity in mid March, to me, that's a red flag. It's like, why are you talking about, like, you guys were crushing it earlier in the year. Now you don't have an identity.

That's why it was so strange. I was like, there was no identity talk. It was actually the complete opposite. It was that we found our groove and we found ourselves. They were 25, five. They're beating everybody. And then now you get a little adversity. It's like, we don't know our identity. It's like, that was just a strange comment to me, man. I'm not there, so I can't speak to really what's going on in that locker room. But if we're.

You've been in locker rooms day after day when you just people asking, picking, asking, and you can have one moment where you slip for 20 seconds and you say 100%. And now we're talking about it on a podcast.

Exactly. And you got to think, too. Like, this guy has a podcast of himself. Right? So I think Paul sometimes just talks just because he does it now all the time. Sometimes, like Draymond, sometimes you say things that you're not on your pod. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? So they're asking, we don't have an identity like Paul George, bro, you shouldn't be saying this. You're like, you're one of the captains of the team. Why don't we keep that in house and you all figure that out? That's where sometimes you're absolutely right. He could be caught up in the moment, frustrated. Didn't have a good game. Teams lost, like you said, ten and ten in the last 20 games, man. We don't have an identity. I'm pretty sure you probably got in the car, was like, why the hell I say that? You know what I mean? So I don't think it's as deep as what people think it is. I don't think it's that deep. That's why I picked them. Like you said, there are counters to them.

And a weird home crowd, too, I think would be the other thing that hurts them in the playoffs. They don't have situations. You've seen it.

We didn't have a culture there then, and we tried. We covered the banners. We did this whole thing. The honest to God truth is, we're like the step kid in that city. We were, and they still are now. It's a Lakers town. It always will be.

It's the step kid of like, the fourth wife.

Yes.

It's not even like the second wife's like. It's like there's been two other wives. And then they showed up after.

Because they don't even get preference over the Kings. I'm talking about the hockey team. They're the third tenant in that building. They go off a schedule. Lakers always get first priority.

You saw it like this Sunday. Guess who has the 1230 against March madness home game? It's not the Lakers. Clippers, sixers, 1230. They always have the worst time.

Always. And the crowd, to your point, not that they don't have a good fan base, it's just not. When we're comparing it to other markets and teams, they only have one team there. That's their iconic team where like, listen, it is what it is. The Lakers are the Lakers.

Well, you know what they did this year? Whoever owns that building, they created this whole section that's right across from the home team's bench that has, like, you get to go under and it's like there's suites underneath and basically they won't move anyone else in there if the seats aren't sold. So for the Lakers they're like half sold. For the clippers it's like empty. So the clippers are sitting there, they're looking across their bench and it's just this empty section of super wealthy seats that nobody wants to buy.

Is that the suites that are going for like a couple of million and then they get like twelve.

Well, it's this whole section that you go under and you have these bunker suites. So anyway, the vibe is just really weird at the games because then you have the diehard fans but then if they play, know that has, when they play golden state it's like half and know if they play the Lakers it's like half and you know that's always going to be one of those. All right, so dangerous teams. If I gave you gold medal. Bronze, you say gold to the Clippers. So now you have New Orleans or Phoenix. Who are you more afraid of?

Gold is clippers still. I just feel that way. Okay. Silver people are going to not like this because I do like the Pelicans. I'm still going, man, this is tough. I like the Pelicans team. Just when we just talked about it, we just talked about like stars getting it done in the playoffs. You know what I mean? Like Kevin and Devin and then you had the addition of Brad. It hasn't been great during the regular season. Sometimes the regular season just is not a tell all a. You get in a seven game series and it's like, bro, it don't even matter what just happened. It's seven. Seven. Best of seven. It's us versus you. Kevin and Devin and Brad are looking around the locker room like, yo, we got enough, man. Our best seven can get beat anybody. And that is a team that when we talk about scoring and you need a bucket and possession by possession. We saw it in the game where they went to Denver and Kevin was just hitting those type of shots and you're just like, man, this team on a good night could beat anybody. It's just like they did that without know and they only have to go.

Four and three to win a four.

They can, they can still lose a mean. I have to go Phoenix Silver and bronze. What I have to give the Pelicans just due to like, I don't know. First off, I got to see Zion play very well in the playoffs. The game shrinks, it gets physical and that paint gets crowded. We've seen it with Giannis, Giannis had to figure out ways to have success in the playoffs. You know what I mean? Like, he had to reach that new level. That's something Zion is going to have to do because they're going to crowd that paint and it's going to be a little different.

Well, there are two things. There's that, and if they're really going to do the Zion's our point guard thing, that's not going to work in the playoffs because what's going to happen is teams are going to guard them 94ft, make them work, do what people did to Phoenix. Oh, Chris Paul, you're old. We're going to wear you down.

That's exactly what they're going to do now. We're giving it our all. People don't understand, like regular season. We're going game by game. When you go into a game, you're already thinking about also the scattering report for tomorrow's game or the next game. When you go in a playoff series, you're going to have a guy give his absolute all. I used to tell this to guys when players sign guys because they're energy guys, they're like, yo, this guy's great. He plays with high energy as a motor on. Like that's, that's great. But in the playoffs, everyone has a motor.

Yeah.

So then that guy is know, like, I love Pat Bev or Jared Vanderbilt. These guys are like great energy guys. In the playoffs, everybody plays with that. Do other. You have to do other things, man. Now you have to be really skilled or you have to be a hooper because everyone's playing hard. They're going to pick Zion up. They're going to poke at the ball. They're going to be messing with them. They're going, going to crowd the paint. They're going to build a wall. He's going to have to figure out ways. I'm not saying Zion can't. We saw Giannis do it, but Zion's going to have to figure out ways and coach Willie Green is going to have to figure out ways for their offense to try to speed up as fast as possible in a slowed down environment because that's the playoffs is sometimes. And they're going to have to figure out ways to get Zion going and get easy. Yeah.

And they've had crunch time issues, too. Yeah. We're taping this before. There's an Orlando Pelicans game tonight, and I don't know what's going to happen in it, but my guess would be Orlando is going to go, oh, you're going to do this. We have Jalen Suggs.

Yep.

Okay. And just kind of unleash him like a pit bull on that. No, point guard. Like, I'm more glass half empty than glass half full with them. The glass half full would be when Zion has been playing, when they've had their team last year and this year, they're like a top six team net rating. Yeah.

And their size, like you pointed out earlier, Bill, their size is like, it's a turn on. You know what mean? Like, you see the size across the floor and that's a turn on for people. You know what I mean? Just considering the length that they have defensively, every three is contested, bro. Hitting shots over Herb Jones and Trey Murphy. Like, these guys are like six. They're a long team. Valent Zion Williams, Brandon Ingram, Herb Jones, Trey Murphy, Larry Nance. It's like, my God, they're big as hell. So it's like when you have that much size on a team in a playoff series, that could be a concern. And that's why people feel like, man, pelicans aren't an easy. That's. That's not a team that you'd want to play first round.

That's why you love this play, the play in, in the round one. Because some of these matchups, New Orleans to me is almost like, I'd be afraid to bet honor against them in a round one. I guess depending on the matchup, there's going to be certain matchups that are like, oh, this is bad for, like, I think if they play Minnesota, that's just a bad matchup for them. But I have the least feel for them. Phoenix, it seems like the smart teams have figured out how to attack them, especially the Nurkage piece of know. I don't know if you saw what Boston did to them last week, but they put drew on Nurkic and they just tried to get Nurkic in every possible pick and roll. And that's the thing I think people, we always try to talk about on this pod, but when we get in a hunting season, in the playoffs, and whatever your scab is on your arm and the team's like, what's that? And they just start scratching the scab and trying to make it bleed, that's what happens. The Celtics last year, Grant Williams and wanted nobody had to guard those guys.

And it got to the point where Grant basically was unplayable for a lot of the games because he lost his confidence. So now it's like, oh, shit, now what do we do? And everybody was like, hey, marcus, knock yourself out. And that was the scab, and that was the one teams were picking. But I think Phoenix Nurkich is, to me, Nurkic. I know his stats are good. He's been healthy this year, but he's the scab 100%.

They're going to try to get ahead. And also, this whole no point guard thing for them, I don't like it. I haven't liked it. And again, I think people have this idea that they need this ultimate point guard. I don't feel that way at all. All I think they need is a solid point guard to just be able to help them run the show in times of chaos. It's like when I think of other big threes, when we talk about, like, the Miami Heat, like, bro, Mario Chalmers wasn't some superstar point guard. They had Dwayne Wade, they had LeBron James, they had Chris Bosch, they had all this stuff on this team, right? They weren't running 50 pick and rolls a game with Mario Chalmers. He'd be lucky to get four. Mario Chalmers was there to be able to hit an open shot, be a solid defender. And just when it got a little sticky and they're doing a little ISO or James and wait, he get the rebound and be like, hold on, let's get down the court, let's run. You know what I mean? That's all they need. You got Kevin, you got Devin.

Those are guys you want pick and rolls with Brad Beal, you got everything. You just need a guard who can defend, hit an open shot, who you just can't just sag off and not play. And they need a guy who could just run an offense they don't need. For instance, that's why Minnesota extended Michael Conley for two more years. They're like, yo, bro, we have enough here. We like you because you just help us when we get a little chaotic. You're a point guard. We don't need Trey young, Luca Donkin, Shay Alexander. We don't need that. We have our stars in other spots of the floor.

That's what white does for the Celtics.

Exactly. All right, guys, we've been a little. Let's calm down. Let's calm down a little bit. Let's run a play.

You know this. There's not 30 of those in the league. There might be like twelve.

No, and that's the thing, right? They got so top heavy with this scoring phoenix, like doubled down Devin and Kevin and Brad. We're going to score. We're going to score. And then we don't need a point guard. Devin can play point. It's like, well, now Devin's trying to be a point guard. Instead of being who Devin is, they need a point guard and they got isaiah. We'll see how that works. I'm happy for him, by the way. I think his story is incredible. Number one, his heart and his arc to continue to play. People have been laughing at isaiah for the past couple of years, like continuing to try to play in the G league and all these rec games he plays with. For him to get a ten day with Phoenix just speaks to his love and passion for the game. I'm so happy for that guy and I hope he plays well. I do think they need like a defensive point guard and just a guy who can just bring it up, get him into some sets, hit the open shot and just be solid. Just be solid. They don't need anything special from you.

They already got special on the floor that they pay 400 million to. You got to just be mario Chalmers. That guy was vital for that Miami team. And I go down the line of other guys just like that. You know what I mean? So I do think that's an issue and a glaring issue for Phoenix. And I think going into the summer, that's something that they're going to try to add. So we'll see how this ends up. But this playing tournament is going to be crazy.

It was an aggressive move. I think if they knew Grayson Allen was going to be this good for them, maybe they don't do the beal piece and maybe they think of a different bro kind of team to do. They didn't know Grayson Allen was going to become club.

I didn't know.

In the mid two thousand and ten.

S, I didn't know Grayson could shoot like that. More so like even shooting off the dribble, off a pick and roll, I didn't know he could move and shoot like that. In terms of just coming off a down screen, one, two step. I didn't know he had that footwork. I didn't know he could shoot like this. I knew he's a capable shooter, but he's turned into arguably one of the best shooters in the NBA.

Well, they have this extension deadline with him. I think it's March 27 because after six months, after a trade, you can sign the dude. He's probably in the open market with all the teams that have cap space now. He's probably like a $15 to $18 million guy. And they're just going to have to sign up now. They're going to be in, like, the 17th apron. Let me know what apron they're eligible for. I really want to talk about Katie. Let's take a break, and then we got to do some KD.

All right.

So coming off the Suns, Durant passes Shaq Durant is now the 8th leading scorer of all time, even though he missed most of 2014 because he hurt his foot, or 2013 because he hurt his foot. He missed all the Achilles season between the warriors and the Nets, and he's probably missed two and a half years because of injuries. And he's just been 28, 29 a game now since 2009, 2010. I think he's been probably the second most discussed player of the last 15 years behind LeBron. I'm in the pro Katie defender camp, but I also see the point some people make about it. Why is there so much conversation with two sides with him specifically compared to some of the other players in the league? What do you think it is? And you played against him for a bunch of years. What is it about him?

If we're going off of talent and scoring ability, there's no question, right? Every player talks about it like, bro, this guy, the way he scores, he's number one in the NBA. Number one. And he has been. His longevity as a scorer in Hooper is still not appreciated enough. We praise LeBron every day, as we should. We are even now talking about Steph and Katie just is kind of swept under the rug. Meanwhile, the guy's just averaging like 27 at age, whatever he is. He's like, in his high 30s, still putting up 30 and 40 point games, basically.

He's a 50, 40, 90 guy for this decade.

And that's insane. Yeah, it's insane. And you know what's even more insane, Bill, is the degree of difficulty of shots that he shoots consistently, contested. Fade aways. Mid range. He's heavily a mid range player. Pull up threes off the dribble. These are the toughest shots in basketball, and he's made them at a high clip. Every long player that has decent skill, when they come out like, oh, Kevin Durant, and we haven't seen one yet even touch the surface of even being near him. Every lanky player we see in college or high school, he has ability to be Kevin, bro, it's not happening. That guy is like a phenomenon. Just how we haven't seen, like, a guy before LeBron or after LeBron. We also haven't seen anybody like Kevin. We haven't seen anybody at seven foot be able to move and shoot and have the skill level like he has. So you asked this question, why isn't he regarded as such? The warriors thing just. It changed everything, Bill. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but when you lose three one to a team and then go to that team, and it's not only that you went to the team, it's the fact that everybody knew how good you were at that time.

You were the second best player in the NBA. It was LeBron. Then you. When you go to that team, you made it. I don't want to say you took the easy road, but it was the road that we knew him going to that don't. Because it's soft to say it's not fair, but this guy went to that team, and he was still the best player in that team, by the way. Steph was the most important to that warriors team, but Kevin Durant was the best player in the team. All right? And everybody saw that in the finals when they went against LeBron, the guy was incredible. It just felt like, man, I just think you're too good for. So. And we give him credit, he was still the best player in the finals. MVP, two time champion. You got to give Kevin Durant his flowers for that. It just felt like he was too good to do that. He was too good to do that. And that's what even. They gave LeBron shit for years when he went to Miami. You know what I mean? It's just like. The Cleveland championship meant way more. It's just like, bro, you went and got that.

You know what I mean? You went and did that. This one felt like, come on, man. Especially since you had enough. You had Russ there, you had everything there. You were up three one versus Golden State. It just. The timing of it wasn't right. And then he's bounced around. He went to Brooklyn. It didn't work. And he goes to like. We haven't seen him on his own. Just go get one. Where I've seen Steph do that. I've seen Steph win after Katie left. He won before Katie was there, stamped. We've seen LeBron win in every single place he's been. Cleveland, Miami, Lakers. The guys won a championship, stamped. Kevin's the third guy in that tier, man. We talk about the best players of the last decade or more. It's LeBron, Steph and Katie. They're the three guys that are above everyone else. And two of them have done it on their own or done it with their teams, where Katie has simply only done it with the warriors. That's it. And we've had these weird years with Kevin where they lose early in the playoffs. We saw Boston, that weird Boston series a couple of years ago where Brown and, like, really went at him and we're like, what the hell is this?

What's going on? Do you remember.

Tatum just outplayed him severely.

That was.

That's.

That's didn't. I've never seen Kevin this vulnerable. I've never seen him play like, so, like, we have these instances like that to where the media, obviously, they pick him apart. He's a guy that goes at people on Twitter. He's a guy that's very emotional. They caught him with the burner. He's talking to people. He always has comebacks. He has something to say. He is very emotional guy. So people like throwing stones at his glass house. And that's the difference between, think about it, man. Steph is so regarded and self respected and well respected, and he's professional and he stays out the media in that lane and his media is run like, I don't even think he controls his Instagrams. Clearly it's somebody else. You could tell by the pictures that are posted. He's not even involved in that. He plays, he does his thing. He's built his legacy. He's been on one team his entire career. That's a whole different thing, right? You can't say anything with stuff. LeBron's LeBron. So we're not even going to get into that. So Kevin has these things. They're like these little points that I just named. I named like ten of them you can throw a stone at and break that glass house.

So people feel like he's this or that. And because of that, it gets in the way of how great he is. Because I'm with you, Bill. People thought I was crazy for saying Kevin Durant's a top ten player. I said this the other day. I was like, for me, man, I know it's hard to compare guys in the. But based off of scoring and skill, and I've never seen anybody like it, Kevin's like a top ten, top 15 team player of all time for man. Like, the guy in any era just dominates. He is a scoring machine. I've always been a big Kevin Durant fan, so I am biased. I love watching him play, and I just think he's unbelievable as a basketball player. I played pickup with him last year, last summer. This past summer before I decided to go and do the media stuff. I played pickup with him like every other day. And the games were incredible, Bill. I mean, we were out in the valley. It was Devin, myself, Trey Young, Chet Holmgren. I'm talking about. It was filled with pros. Jalen Green. It was the invite only, and it was Kevin's pickup.

Kevin sent the text out. It was only twelve to 13 guys. If you were on the list, you didn't play that day. And it was his pickup, so everybody wanted to play because it was Kevin. When I tell you he was so much better than everybody else in the gym, it was laughable, man. He scored, like, the first nine points of pickup. I remember at one point, he hit a tough fade away off the glass, like going to his left. And I look over and you could see other gyms and coaches just like, God, Lee, man, he's so gifted, he's so good. And we don't appreciate Kevin enough because of these other things, man. And I wish if he wins a championship, like with Phoenix or somebody, it would help so much. And I don't think it's going to happen because I don't think Phoenix is good. Yeah, that's the issue there. He has these problems. He has these little chinks in the armor that we've seen LeBron and Steph not have. And that's the difference where people I think unfairly sometimes are so off of Kevin, that's one thing. Like, you have some bones to pick with some of his decisions.

He's whatever. Whatever you don't like, you go into Golden State. Okay, fine. But it's the difference to be like, man, Kevin, he not even. Kevin's not now we're wiling now we're doing too much. You guys need to take a step back and really watch and look at his numbers and his portfolio, and then come back and talk to me, because the guy is unbelievable. I don't know. That's my.

I still defend the Golden State thing. Yeah, I thought at the time.

I.

Don'T know if I would have done it, but I understood it, because he had been there nine years with Seattle and then eight years in OKC. He probably had enough of the Westbrook experience. The team itself, I think for years and years, they did the hard and trade. Like they didn't spend enough money. We've talked about this so many times on this podcast, but I at least understood it. He wanted a life change. He wanted to live in the bay. He wanted to play in this awesome team. And I think he thought of it, like, I'll go here for three years or four years, and then I'll figure out the next thing. And until he got hurt, it worked. I mean, they were going to win three titles in a row. He was playing the best he'd ever played when he got hurt, he had that Clipper series. Were you on that 2019 Clippers team? No, I think you were gone at that point. He was so awesome in that.

I really felt like, oh, my God, you're right. He was having, like 50 every game.

On, like, achilles thing. To me, the Achilles piece is the part that gets forgotten. If LeBron had just got hurt in 2012 and missed a year and a half, like, we would have mentioned that a couple of times, but that's one. And then I'll never understand the Brooklyn thing. And maybe the Knicks weren't in the place where any player would have taken that organization seriously and wanted to go there, but he had his main person, Rich Kleiman, who. They did a podcast recently, and Rich was like, I was trying to get you to go to the Knicks. And Katie's like, yeah, that was a mistake. I should have listened to you. For him not to understand how irrelevant Brooklyn is in the New York market compared to the Knicks. It's way worse than the Clippers.

It is.

Clippers have been here in the. Brooklyn's like, they're completely meaningless in New York. And for him not to get that, I just thought was a weird move.

You talk about not having an identity. Brooklyn, they're number one. Yeah. You know what that was Bill? He won two with Golden State, remember? And then the Draymond thing happened. Right? Well, and that started it. All right? And after those words were said, sometimes even when you forgive each other, you don't forget. He said those words to him on the court. I don't know what exactly was said. I heard what it was said. I don't want to speak on it, because whatever. He said some things to Katie, and that changed the way Katie looked at, I think, his place there. And I think he felt, wait. And to Isaiah Thomas's point the other day, I think KD felt like, hold on, wait, guys. I know I came to y'all's team. I know y'all won one before me. Let's not act like I didn't make this go longer. Let's not act like I didn't make us unbeatable. Kevin made that team that special. They were.

Was, by the way, I went to that game and I watched the whole thing happen, and I knew it was like, oh, my God, this is bad. Then it got bad in the locker room, too, and they never recovered from it. But I think a lot of that had to do with KD. He never really committed to whether he was going to stay after that year. And it was just this festering, weird kind of situation. It's like when your parents aren't getting along, but nobody's saying anything, and then it just blows up. At Thanksgiving one night, it was like, wait, what's happening? Mom just threw a turkey at dad.

And they had won, too. So at that point, he got his rings. At that point, I think for him he was like, you know what? Fuck it. I'm going to go play my boy, Kyrie and James. I'm just going to go play my homies and let's go see. We're going to win. We're going to have fun. It wasn't even a logical decision. I think he was just in his mind, like, I'm going to go play my friends. I'm going to do it my way. I'm going to do it this way. Because he just won. He got his rings. That was like his thing. He got my rings. I did this. I was finals MVP. People can say what they want. I'm going to go play my boy.

Yeah. I beat LeBron head to head, two straight.

I beat LeBron.

Now he gets no credit for that.

He doesn't get credit for that. The only reason he doesn't get credit for that is because LeBron was out there by himself playing against them, and Katie had too much help. So it's like LeBron was out there.

The second year by himself. But not the first year. No, the first year, the teams, from a salary standpoint, were even. He had Kyrie, he had Kevin Love, who they gave the first pick of the draft for. They had a bunch of expensive role players. I think it was close. I mean, when we went into 2017 finals, people were like, who's going to win? I don't think people were like, the one. You're going to roll them.

Yeah, I'll give you that. I'll give you that. The first one is definitely closer. The second one was ridiculous.

I mean, LeBron, the 17, is that the best team you've ever played? 17 warriors? No.

You had to play perfect to beat them. It felt like you had to play perfect. It felt like when you beat them, you're like, damn, we played great tonight. You had to play great to beat them. Especially in the third quarter. You could be up by 15 points, man, going into halftime, and everybody felt like it was zero, zero, because we all knew it was coming they were going to go on a run, especially back when they were at Oracle. That gym used to be. It'd be rocking in there, man. It was just different. You would be up 20, you're like, yo, guys, we got to prepare ourselves for this run. We know they're going to turn that switch. They're a third quarter team, probably the best ever, and they're going to go on a monumental run. And it just felt like you couldn't slow them down. Once that gear got going, man, they had too much. Steph was in his prime, Katie was at the peak of his prime. Clay was in his prime. Draymond had his just. They had good role players around them. It was, you know, our teams got close. I was on those Houston teams, man.

Like, we were really were. We just weren't good enough. You know what I mean? That was. Know. I was even on the Clippers team before that that tried to compete with the warriors. We were really good. We were just right. Just. We just weren't good enough. And that's the best team I've ever played against in my life. I've never played against a team better than them.

You know who has a version of that now is the Nuggets, where six minutes. Oh, we're only up six.

They go win the game.

Oh, shit, we don't have enough distance. And then the Nuggets just do their shark from jaws thing and come back.

They play the same way every time down the stretch. Two man game, pick and roll. Jamal Murray, Nikola Jokic. Jamal will pick and choose his times to score.

Gordon Gordon floating around near the rim on the baseline, waiting for an hour.

Gordon's playing the dunker. Calwell Pope and McW, I'm sorry, Michael Porter Jr. They're all spaced. Two shooters on each side. Pick your poison because our best player makes the right decision every time. We're going to get it to him in that little quick pick and roll spot. Now, either he's shooting the floater, the lob to AG, or it's his pass to Michael Porter Jr. Pick which one you're going to give up. You got to give up something. And if you don't give up anything and you play it well, then you got Jamal Murray, who can make some magic himself. They just out execute teams every single time. I say this with Boston, I love Boston, but their fourth quarter is horrendous. Tatum is one of the. And I love Tatum. I'm a fan of Tatum, but his crunch time as a superstar, he actually has the lowest percentage field goal percentage, I think it's like 30 something percent. It's not good. And a lot of it's based off of him. And Jalen Brown make their own magic and use ISO basketball and hero plays to try to win games where Denver executes. So when you get three minutes left in the game, if we're in the finals this year and it's 98, 98 and it's Denver Boston, you're not in good shape.

We've lost that exact game twice this year already.

This year both games have gone down to the wire. I would text people like, this game is over. They're not winning the game unless Tatum, because Tatum's so good. If he just hits tough shots and makes up, then they could win because it's possible he's really good. But consistently in a seven game series where every game is going to be close because Boston or Denver is not going to blow out each other because there might be one blowout in that playoff series, maybe one. And I'd say maybe it's at Denver because playing it up there, it's kind of crazy. They have the best home court advantage in the league with that real. Yeah, but you know, man, they execute better than everybody. They're just like the Warriors. A great point, great comparison. They do. They out execute teams.

I said this a couple of days ago. I think it's the best team I've seen in seven years because there's an inevitability with them down the stretch. Like, even when Dallas beat them the other day. How did they beat them? Well, Luca hit a 27 footer, Murray missed a 14 footer. He's wide open. And then Kyrie hit one of the craziest end of the game shots in the history of the league. And that's how they lost. And they barely lost because of those three events. Hey, last thing I wanted to mention quick, and then we'll go just philly. So I was going to do this on Tuesday and I forgot because Fando had had ODs on Philly to make the playoffs. And I think they were like, they.

Were.

Plus 320 not to make the playoffs. Now those ODs aren't even on there because they lost again. They're the 8th seed. Embiid is still not back. Philly was 29 and 13 after they beat the spurs. When Embiid had that crazy game, they were first in net rating and now they're 38 and 31. So they're nine and 18 in their last 27. They're set up for. I don't know if Embiid comes back or not, but they're going to be the eight seed. They're going to have to play the Bulls in the playing game for the 89. I don't know why you would bring Embiid back at this point. It's March 21 and he's like, why? What's the point?

Correct. You nailed it right in the head. He does not need to come back. What's the rush? The risk reward here? It's not worth it. First, again, we talked about earlier with Gobert. A man of this guy's size needs proper rehab and time to heal. You do not rush a big man back, let alone your franchise player, MVP caliber player like Joel Embiid, by the way. It's like, what are we rushing for, bro? We just got buddy healed. They got Ubre, who's been a great late sign, who's a guy they could probably resign for a decent, cheap contract. You have Tyrese Maxi, who's gotten this exposure and freedom to go out there and play and advance his game. You get a full summer of Joel Embiid rehabbing. They have like 50 something million dollars in cap space. They're going to get off that Tobias Harris contract, which is insane. They have all of these aspects to where like, Philly could realistically next year be in a position to actually now realistically contend. They got rid of the drama. The doc thing didn't work. He left. James is out of there. All these things, they got a clear mind, clear head team happen.

Rushing Joel Embiid back now, even if you get him back healthy, bro, the guy hasn't played since. However, what shape is he going to be in? Is it going to be 100% healthy? Is it going to be sore? Are we risking this? Why even risk something like that with him? If he gets hurt again, whoever's decision it was to bring him back will be fired.

This isn't durant in the 2019 finals with like, all right, you're not 100%, but you can play on this. And if we win four time, they have to just beating Chicago in the playing game to have the right to play the Celtics, who are right now the fourth best regular season of all time, who play Philly really well anyway. And all right, let's say, oh, my God, they just upset the Celtics. This is one of the biggest upsets in the history of the league. Then they still have to win two more rounds and then they still have to beat Jokic in the finals.

He will wear down. He will wear down. It's not enough time. It's not even close, Bill. It's not close. I keep hearing him say quotes about him coming back. It's not a good decision. It's not a good decision.

Well, they said he was, like, kind of doing a little practice stuff and some shoes.

Just calm down. Just relax, man. And I know Philly fans like, bro, like, no, Philly, you should want this. You should want him to be all right. Have a full summer of rehab, get his body right, come back even better and healthier next year. All those lumps and bruise because this guy's been carrying this team for like three or four years. I'm talking about the amount of times this guy touches the ball and how fit he goes at a free throw line. He gets killed every game. It's brutal watching him play sometimes because how much he touches the ball, it's like, gosh damn, this guy has so much on his shoulders. Let him properly heal and then come back next year. You do not need him coming back early.

Their schedule the rest of the way, they only have five home games left. They're playing the Lakers on Friday night. Clippers Sacramento on the road. They have Cleveland on the road. They have Miami on the road. They got San Antonio near the end of the year on the road. They just don't have a lot of easy games either. So they're clearly going to be the 8th seed.

Yes.

So now it's like, hey, Joel, come back. Oh, by the way, we're going to be playing a one game elimination playoff game on April 150.

Sense makes zero sense. It makes zero sense. And if you're a Philly fan, you should not want this. Just take the L in the year. It's okay. Listen, we already have our favorites in the east, in the west anyway. Yeah. Why don't we get the team right and let's gear up for this summer. You got a big summer ahead. You got cap space, you got some money to spend. Get some role players in there, resign some guys. Joel's getting healthy. You end the season with Maxi getting his experience, go out there and be by himself and even grow and get better. Now you got your duo. You got some good assets coming in next year that you could sign and pay like you're in shape next year to be a contending team. We're already at the end of the season. We're talking about four or five months. Just hold it down.

By the way, welcome to being a media member because the Philly fans are going to react to this as, oh, yeah, you just don't want Philly to come back because you don't want him to play the fired your dad. Of him coming back, I'm like, bro.

I want nothing but the best for Joel Embiid. That's what I want. I don't care about the Philadelphia semi sections. I care about Joel Embiid as a basketball player. I want him to play good for a long time and be healthy. I want him to be able to walk okay after he's done playing basketball. All right? So to anybody that has anything to say to that, you can kiss my ass. I don't really care. He's been out for a chunk of the season. You're trying to rush a seven foot player back, by the way. We're not talking about a pick and roll, just a guy who contends. And it's like a Clint capella big. We're talking about a guy that you guys feed 100 times a game and you expect him to have 30 and 15 and ten and defend the rim. And defend the rim. It's like, bro, are you all kidding me right now? Bro, just take the l on the year. Who cares? You're going to be in position this summer, Philly. And I'm telling you right now, for the Philly fans who might be mad, I'm saying this. I have philly picked.

If they handle this summer right, if Darryl Morley does what he's supposed to do, and all these decisions are made correctly, Philly is easily an early pick next year to be a team that can go contend and win a championship.

You mean when they sign Paul George?

Listen, you said it. You said it, not me. I'm going to let you throw that out there.

I think the Clippers. Would you be shocked if Paul George was not on the Clippers next year? I would not be.

No, no. Not with how. I mean, listen, we just talked about his quote the other whether that was innocent or not, and we've seen the Clippers been. So depending on how this playoff goes, listen, if they, like, go the first round or second round and lose, buckle up. Yeah, buckle up for, like, we don't know what's going to happen there with multiple guys.

Listen, the only thing we've learned with the NBA the last ten years is that an unhappy exit usually leads to more departure actions and drama than anyone.

100%.

Give me your top two dream guests for off guard, your podcast on the Ringer podcast network. Who have we tried to get that hasn't committed yet?

I want Russell Westbrook. And I'll tell you why. He doesn't do podcasts he doesn't do a lot of interviews. He's always actually had a certain way or feeling towards the media. If anything, I want Russell. I think he's a vastly underappreciated the. The bullshit comments made by media personalities that just say things for clickbait, whether it's Russell Westbrick or all these other things that we talk about. We always talk about where Russ isn't, but we don't talk about what he is. He's a guy.

I actually think the Clippers really miss him because he comes in and shifts the energy. Again, great energy, no energy. He's good.

People don't talk about his mindset to be a former MVP and superstar, to just, like, take these roles, man. No matter what they give him, he's done it. When he was starting and playing well, they brought in James. He went right back to the bench, no questions asked. He's done everything that people ask him to do, man. And we've seen superstars time and time again not accept roles and get themselves out the league because of it. And this is a guy who's know added longevity to his career just based off him being a good guy, a good teammate, and accepting those roles. I would love to hear his perspective on things and how he's approached things and how you deal with it, because I know you see it. And he's even had his own quirks and interactions with the media that have been good, bad. I would love to talk to him and really get into that mind and have him open up and actually be honest and have a conversation. He would definitely be one and then two. For me, I'm going to say this name just because he's not a guy that I want to talk to Luca a little bit.

I would like to talk to Luca a little bit just because he does stuff, but he's usually dry when he mean, he doesn't put out too much. He's just a guy who plays and hoops, but he's the best guard in the NBA, and he has been. He's been the first team just about every year he's been in the league. His resume already is nuts. I want to talk to him about what he feels that his place in the league is and really get in his mind of, like, where do you think you could get better at? What steps do you want to take defensively? What do you want out of this? You know what mean? Because, like, you are the best, most talented guard. The things he does in the NBA, you can't even teach. He has a feel in the way he plays a game. You can't teach it. He's a must see TV. I would like to ask him, do you think you dribble too much? Do you think you need to do this less? Do you think you need to improve?

Why didn't you go better with Porzingis? Why did that work?

Yeah, why did Brunson, why is Kyrie's thing working a little bit better? Or what do you need on that team for you to be a contender? You're regarded as the best guard in the league. Last year you didn't make the playoffs. This year you're teetering to make. Why? Why? I want to know what. Because when we talk about best guards in the league, Luca, I put you. So what is it? What do we need to see from you? Or what do you need? Are you going to be Dallas long term? I have so many questions with that, like, he would have to be my number two. Those are the two guys I would like to have.

You had ant on yet?

I had ant.

You had him last year though, right?

You know what I did? I had him on too early, Bill. I should have had him on this year.

You got to bring him back and just ask him, like, what's it going to be like in the Olympics when you're playing for the country in three different sports? How are you going to balance starting for?

I should get ant back on.

Could you start for the Vikings? Would be my first question. Like, if you had a three week training camp, do you think you could be the QB one for the Vikings in 2024?

Well, you know what he's going to say, that he's going to say 100%.

All right, listen to off guard with Austin Rivers. You can watch him on ESPN.

Yeah, I'm about to go on in an hour. All right.

Good to see you, Austin.

I appreciate you having me, man. Thank you, guys.

Thanks. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Steve Saruti. Thanks to Austin Rivers. Thanks to Kyle Creighton. Thanks to Tate Frazier. Always good to have Tate Frazier on the podcast. Producer of the first couple years of this pod, plus employee number one of the ringer. So Tate Frazier, great guy. Don't forget YouTube.com slash Bill Simmons for all the videos and clips from this podcast and rewatchables and my walk and talks as well. Enjoy the weekend, enjoy March madness and I will see you on this feed on Sunday.

On a waste.

I don't have with him.

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