From the New York Times, I'm Sabrina Tavernisi, and this is The Daily. India, the world's largest democracy, is in the midst of a national election, and India's Prime Minister, Narendra Modi, is running to extend his tenures in power. Modi has become one of the most consequential leaders in India's history, but he is also one of its most controversial, drawing criticism for anti-democratic practices and charges of religious persecution. Today, my colleague, Mujib Vishal, on the many Narendra Modi's, and which one India will get in his historic third term. It's Thursday, May ninth. So, Majeeb, you are covering India's elections, which is, of course, an enormous undertaking. It's a country of over a billion people, so the election takes weeks. We are right now in the middle of that process. So first of all, where do things stand now in the race?

Well, it's hard to know exactly right now. There's so much noise around campaigning, and both sides, Prime Minister Modi and his opposition, are pitching their side. But most observers expect Modi to be the favorite in this race because of his own popularity. This race has become a test of the popularity of a leader who has been in power for 10 years and who has a confidence that even if his party is struggling, his popularity can lift up their chances.

That's what I want talk to you about, his popularity. I want to understand how that fits with the other thing I think of when I think of Modi, which is his authoritarian tendencies. The last time you and I talked, it was after a political assassination in Canada that had been traced back to Modi's government. How is it that Modi has managed to become such a prominent, durable figure in India in the world's largest democracy?

I've been in India for over three years now. One of the central questions that has fascinated me is exactly that. He just has this enormous grip over the imagination of what is a hugely diverse country, the number of languages, the number of ethnicities, the number of religions across 1.4 billion people and in a huge geography. But he just has this talent of making them feel, one, making them feel united as the new India that he imagines. He's put himself at the center of reimagining what it means to be Indian in this age.

How is he doing that, Mujib?

A lot of it comes from the fact that he knows this country very well. That he's traveled, he's spent time across the districts. So he understands, I think, the pulse of this country very well. But he also Also does it by using technology, by using both old and new methods, by constantly painting narratives that project India as this one nation on the march. One of the ways he does that is through this monthly radio show that he has.

A monthly radio show, like FDR's Fireside Chat?

Sort of, but a lot more personal in the way that he draws on his own story that most Indians are very familiar with, that here's a man very much like them, that he comes from a really humble economic background. His father was a tea seller, but also in India's rigid caste hierarchy, he is not from the top communities. Also that he has dedicated his life almost entirely to what he says is his nation, the national cause. He doesn't have a family. He was married at one point, but he separated from his wife, and he never talks about it. He always projects himself as a bachelor who, around the clock, only thinks about India. And this comes into the radio show.

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The range of topics that he discusses.

From health to food and nutrition to transport to technology, it's almost like telling the listeners that all his time is spent thinking about all the issues that could pertain to their lives.

He's got advice for them. He's got thoughts for them. The way he does it is in a very personable way.

Where he has callers connect, where he jokes, where he references the places he's visited in the country.

He makes it very relatable across a huge nation. He goes into issues that might be very local to a community, and then he tries to connect it to a national narrative, and then he goes to issues that are very cross-cutting. For example, exam preparations, right? This is a country that cares about its studies. Every year around the exam period, Modi becomes their favorite exam tutor. He does this on the radio show, but he does a special broadcast for exam preparation. Where he fills the hall with students, and he gets up almost as a TED Talk speaker. He walks around with pointers. He walks around with that confidence, and he knows that Here are 16, 17, 18-year-olds potential voters in the future. But even for their families, he is a man who tells them, Hear it from me.

Abdesh is changing. As someone like you who has made it big, here are some of the things that work for me.

So he's basically connecting with the Indian people, somewhere between like, Oprah and Dr. Phil on American television.

Basically, basically. That actually might be a better reference than FDR in a way, just the range of things that he addresses and the tone in which he does. This hope of mobility, this hope of making it, he personifies that as well. There's something hugely powerful about that. He's very consistent in it as well. Since he rose to national power 10 years ago, he has barely missed an episode.

Wow.

Every month, he is in the years of this huge country. And wherever the information space moves, he wants to be there. Whether it's the billboards, whether it's the radio, whether it's the television, and especially social media. This is something that he understood much earlier than other Indian leaders, the value of social social media, across a country that's huge to get your message, particularly a country that is very rapidly digitizing, right?

And a country that's so young.

Exactly. A country that is so young, a country that's so huge, and a country that has access to cheap smartphones, cheap data. So he understood this very well. And in the past few years, he senses that some of the people, some of his potential voters, might actually be shifting to these independent spaces of information, the YouTube show people, the Instagram influencers and all. And he wanted to be there. He wanted to make sure all of them project him and his image the same way. So what did he do? Just a couple of months before the election, he held this huge award ceremony for the influencers. Ladies and gentlemen, join your hands together for the influencer of the influencers, the Oji, the Goat, Honorable PM Narendra Modi. For two hours, he was standing on stage. And the Best Storyteller Award goes to Ketika Govendasami. And he was handing out award after award to hundreds of influencers from across India. And the next category is Disrupted of the Year Award. While the hall filled with people who have millions of followers across these different platforms, all of them had their phones out, recording Modi on stage.

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Giving him a pat on the back, dropping a little detail, having something relatable with each one of these young folks who came on stage to receive the award from him.. It's just somebody who is so sharp to latch on to every opportunity to connect with a pocket of audience..

Just imagine the power of those hundreds of influencers with millions of followers across these platforms walking out of that hall thinking one of the most powerful men in the world not only had time for us, but he made us feel that he knew us, right?

And what they will do to then carry his message.

And this is what a successful politician They connect with voters, and they find people that can spread their message. But a successful politician is also someone who gives people a story about what their country is and who they are in it. They help people understand themselves as citizens. So what is Modi actually telling them? What is that story?

Well, it's a story of India's rise. Think of a country coming out of a long history of colonial oppression, a foreign an invasion. He is telling the same people that we finally found our footing, that we're being respected on the world stage, that our economy is growing, that the prestige of what it is to be Indian now is changing on the world's stage, that for the longest time, the world treated us as this poor country where you had to send aid. Now, the world is treating us as a major power that can offer solutions solutions. Again, the way he communicates this is very important. One of the things he did recently was to have Bill Gates over.

Bill Gates as in Bill Gates?

As in Bill Gates, as in for all intents of purposes, in the Indian mind, the man who invented computers, right? Modi's government actually released a full, very heavily he produced a video to promote that visit and that conversation between Modi and Gates. Good morning. Great to see you. You know these beautiful video shots of drone footage and music and all of this? He shakes hands with Modi, and they sit down for a conversation.

But the body language in this conversation is very important.

I'm just curious in terms of your journey of using PCs or phones or different types of software. Was there something that really drew you in, or what's that been like? Bill Gates is asking a lot of the questions. He's asking in English, Modi's answering in Hindi.

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Modi is giving him the solutions on technology, on how do you spread technology to the villages? How do you inject technology into simplifying governance? And what this is telling his audience is that I have brought India to a stage where the man who's associated with computers is coming to me for answers.

Right. I'm the guy giving that computer inventor the answers.

Exactly. Exactly. Again, that's a powerful thing. That if you are a village boy, a teenager somewhere deep in rural India, and you watch this man in a suit asking the questions, and you watch the man who speaks your language giving him the answers and explaining to him how the world should work and what the solutions are to the AI problems of the world, what the solutions are to incorporating technology in agriculture. He's reinforcing the same narrative that I have made it far. I am clinging on to the identity that is very Indian and look, the world is coming for answers.

That my country truly is on the top of the world.

My country is on the top of the world, but my country is on the top of the world on its own terms in terms of holding on to a cultural identity as well. That my country can advance and progress without necessarily letting go of its cultural values. It could offer the world solutions in terms of technology and modernity.

Modi's very skillfully leveraging this Gates visit, right? He's using it to drive home his central message, which is India's on top of the world, I'm on top of India, and even the inventor of the personal computer is Coming to me for technology advice. That's the story he's telling.

Yes, but on the ground, it's a much more mixed reality. Yes, India's economy is growing, but it's an economy that is not helping lift up a lot of people, that it's a deeply unequal economic reality in this country. You've got the fastest growing economy in the world. It's become the fifth largest economy in the world. And yet unemployment is a major problem. It can't generate enough jobs for its huge youth population. And 800 million people are dependent on government ration handouts every month. But Modi, in his control of the information space and in his political cunning, he defines these handouts and rations as development. That looked You are getting help from the government. You're not starving. That look, you might not get a job, but you got a gas cylinder, your mom got a gas cylinder.

A gas cylinder, like a propane take for cooking?

Yes. The political genius of it is in how he then follows up. He's created this huge welfare state where he uses resources from a top-heavy economy to give handouts to the poor. And then after those handouts have been given, he's got a huge party apparatus that knocks on each door and says, Remember that monthly ration of rice and doll and cooking oil that you got? That came from Modi. And in a lot of these places, his picture is on it. His picture is on this government stores that gives the handouts.

Interesting. The picture of his face.

Yeah, the picture of his face. His picture was on the vaccine certificate that every person in this country got. He does not miss an opportunity to be in the face of every citizen of this country to tell them whatever solution you're getting is from my end.

Interesting. He's essentially giving people these essential things, but he's taking pains to make sure that people, really down to the household level, understand that he's the one giving them. His face is there. Like he's really branding it as his own accomplishment.

Yes. I think one part of it is his mastery of narrative building and communication. But the other part of it is the economic context of this country, that for the longest time, these sections of society that we talk about, what he's giving them is more than what they had before him. They were always so weak and so poor, and the state was failing them for so long that even a small ration handout a month is a sign of an improved state, is a sign of a changed India. He drives that point home by the narrative he builds around it. That, Hey, I've given you a little bit. Imagine how much more I can give you if India keeps rising.

It sounds like Modi has really found this very unique recipe to speak to this incredibly vast country. He's organized with his party machine and his face on aid, but he's also deeply appealing and present in almost every Indian's life. That's the textbook definition of a skilled politician.

Yes, that's one version of Modi. But there's also another Modi, a more divisive, even dangerous Modi. We've seen that side of him come out in recent weeks.

We'll be right back. So Mujib, tell us what happened over the past couple of weeks.

What changed over the past couple of weeks in this election campaign is all of a sudden, Modi's rhetoric directly started targeting Muslims. All his life, he spent as a foot soldier of a right-wing Hindu organization called the RSS. The goal of that organization has always been to turn India into a Hindu state. The secular Republic that India was created as in 1947 after the British left, they see that as unfair. Mr. Modi comes from that a background. In his tenure as an office, as Mr. Modi firms To end up this vision of a Hindu-first state, many of his policies were seen as discriminatory towards Muslims, India's 200 million Muslim minority population. Beyond the basics of welfare, the states It's allowing Muslims' participation in the political space, in the cultural space, has shrunk completely during his time. Modi himself, in those years, would continue targeting of the Muslims Muslims, but in a very subtle way. He would make references to their clothes, he would make references to their choice of food. He had all these ways of referring to Muslims. But then he did two things. One is he mentioned the Muslims by name, and then second thing he did was to define the Muslims as outsiders, as infiltrators who don't belong here, who have intruded into his vision of the Indian society.

He started saying that if his opposition comes to power, they will take the wealth of the Hindus and they will give it to the Muslims.

And he didn't just say wealth, land, property.

He said they would take the women's jewelry.

They would take the necklace that Hindu women wear as a sign of their marriage.

So he went very specific to something that is very associated with honor and not just wealth. And then, as he repeated the point, the way these populace politicians do, he threw a question to his audience.

. A huge crowd at a campaign rally.

. He said, Do you want your wealth to go to the infiltrators?

He's saying the quiet part out loud here, right? That Muslims are not actually part of this big national project, even though they are, as you say, 15% of the population of India. They are Indian citizens. It seems like a pretty big deal that Modi himself would say this, right? I mean, why did he say this, do you think?

We were all left wondering, why would he veer from a formula that had worked for him, that others would do the dirty work of directing actively targeting Muslims, where he would just make subtle references, and that was good enough, particularly in a moment where he projects himself as a global statesman, as somebody who believes in these democratic values. But I think the place where he made this comment, give us clues, it was in the state of Rajasthan in Northern India, this more populated belt of India that is his stronghold. Within that state, there was talks that some of the Hindu castles were not happy with him, that there was discontent. And as a way of uniting the Hindu divisions within his support base. He has always united them against someone, against something, and that someone and something has consistently been the Muslims.

So despite his popularity, he's anxious about the margin of his victory and resorted to this nasty form of nationalism to bring out his Hindu base, to bring together those divisions.

Yes, and it has worked for him in the past. This Hindu Muslim division, this fear of the Muslim, has helped him overcome his other moments of political weakness.

But Mujib, just to play devil's advocate for a second here, I mean, isn't it possible that these things are all signs that he's actually feeling very secure? That he's not just resorting to this to bring out his base, but that he's feeling so secure that he's able to just wear this ethnonationalism on his sleeve and do these very illiberal things because he's so powerful and popular that it doesn't matter?

That's one possibility, absolutely. This is the peak of unchecked power, that I can govern this country and I can use the levers of power in any way I want, the institutions, and I can say whatever I want, that there will be no checks on it domestically, and we're seeing this. He's resorting to crackdowns on the opposition. He's resorting to throwing opposition leaders in jail. He is resorting to drying up the source of funding for his political opponents to tilt the playing field in his favor. There's also this security that internationally, beyond the borders of India, nobody will say anything at all because he's created the sense of his story, his power is so intertwined with the story and the power of this rising India. For these outside countries who want deals with India, who want trade with India, who want transactions with India, He is confident that they will not criticize him, that they will not stand up and say, You're crossing lines.

Right. So, Mujib, we've been talking about Modi as a leader with just this wild popularity, in part because his vision of a shining modern India appeals to a lot of people. But there's also this darker streak, this Hindu fundamentalism that we've been talking about. I guess the amazing confounding thing about India and about Modi is that all of these things are true. If you had to come up with a category for Modi, what would you say?

I guess the fascinating thing about him is that he's not easy to label. One thing I've learned in my years of reporting here is that he's many things at once. He sees himself as someone who, after the founding fathers of India, after the founding fathers of this Republic, he speaks of an ambition that no prime minister before him would speak of in the way of completely reshaping this country for the future. But at the same time, he is someone who has demonstrated that he is amassing power around himself, that he is consistently brushing aside any checks on his power, that he has an ideology that does not see this country's entire population as equal, that that ideology has a vision of a first-class citizen and a second-class citizen. Which one of these many modis we see in the future, it's hard to tell. But in moments of tension in moments when he is anxious, that darker sight comes out more clearly. The efforts at a visionary statesman that wants to pull up the the entirety of this country to that higher place that he has in mind ends up taking a back seat.

Mujib, thank you.

Thank you.

We'll be right back. Here's what else you should know today, on Wednesday. Well, hello, everyone. It's just another Wednesday on Capitol Hill. For the second time in less than a year, Republicans in Congress sought to depose their own speaker in the House of Representatives. But this time, the effort failed. The attempt was made by Representative Marjorie Taylor-Green of Georgia. House Speaker, Mike Johnson, easily batted it down. I want to say that I appreciate the show of confidence from my colleagues to defeat this misguided effort. That is certainly what it was. Johnson survived because Democrats came to his rescue. The vote to kill Green's effort was an overwhelming 359 to 43. The Democrats' support allowed Johnson to avoid the messy showdown on the House floor that had led to the historic ouster of former Speaker Kevin McCarthy last fall. Green had threatened to make the move for weeks since Johnson pushed through a long-stalled $95 billion foreign aid package to Ukraine and Israel. In the end, her effort was largely symbolic. Green was widely booed by lawmakers as she called up the resolution and read it aloud. And...

They're going to Rafe. I'm not supplying the weapons that have used historically to deal with Rafe, to deal with the cities, to deal with that problem.

A day after the White House acknowledged that it had halted the shipment of 3,500 bombs to Israel last week out of concern that they might be used on Jerusalem's planned assault on Rafeh in Southern Gaza. President Biden told CNN in an interview that he would also block the delivery of weapons and artillery shells that could be fired into densely populated areas of Rafa. Biden also acknowledged that American bombs had been used to kill Palestinian civilians. Biden's remarks underscored the growing rift between the US and Israel over its war in Gaza.

But it's just wrong. We're not going to supply the weapons and the artillery shells used.

Today's episode was produced by Asta Chetervedi, Eric Krupke, Will Reid, Shannon Lynn, and Summer Tamad. It was edited by Brenda Clinkenberg and Michael Benoit. Contains original music by Ron Nemistow, Marion Lozano, and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansberg of WNDYRLE. For The Daily. I'm Sabrina Tavernisi. See you tomorrow.