Can you hear me?

Yeah.

So you see?

The internet is a little wonky.

Okay. I'm in a huge part in Arizona, so the Internet is very fast.

I think we're going to call you back for the first time in a really long time, a landline.

Okay.

Hey, Fred. It's Michael Barbaro.

Hi.

You can hear me okay?

I can hear you.

Perfect. So, Fred, where exactly am I reaching you?

I'm in portal, Arizona, in a little community called Arizona Sky Village. And it's a very rural community. So our Internet and phone lines are not very good. And the nearest grocery store is 60 miles away.

Wow. And why would you choose to live in such a remote place with such bad Internet?

Because the sky is dark. It's like the sky was 100 years ago before cities encrouched on all of the country. I guess you'd call it an astronomy development. Mainly amateur astronomers who have built homes here far from city lights for the express purpose of studying the sky.

So it's literally a community where once the sun goes down, it's pitch black, and some, perhaps all of you, are stargazing.

Yes, exactly.

Well, I think I'm beginning to understand why you might have the nickname that you do. Can you just tell our listeners what that nickname is?

My nickname is Mr. Eclipse.

From the New York Times, I'm Michael Bivarro. This is The Daily. Today's Today's total solar eclipse will be watched by millions of people across North America, none of them as closely as Fred Espanack, a longtime NASA scientist who's devoted his entire life to studying, chasing, and popularizing the wonder that is an eclipse. It's Monday, April eighth.

Fred, help me understand how you become Mr. Eclipse, how you go from being Fred to this seemingly very hard-earned nickname of Mr. Eclipse?

Well, I was visiting my grandparents at their summer home, and it was a partial Eclipse of the Sun back in the early 1960s, and I was a 10 or 12-year-old kid. I got my parents to get me a small telescope, and I watched some of the partial phases, and it was really interesting. And I started reading about eclipses, and I found out that as interesting as a partial eclipse is, a total eclipse is far more interesting. The moon is only one four hundredth the diameter of the sun. It's tiny compared to the sun, but it's 400 times closer to the Earth. So it's just this incredible coincidence that the moon and sun appear to be the same size in the sky. And once in a while, the moon passes directly between the Earth and the sun, and you're plunged into this very strange midday twilight. But they're limited to very small geographic areas to see a total eclipse. And this little book I was studying had a map of the world showing upcoming paths of total solar eclipses. And I realized that one was passing through North America about 600 miles from where I lived.

And that that eclipse was in 1970. And I was reading about this in 1963, 1964, and I made a promise to myself that I was going to get to that eclipse in 1970 to see it because I thought it was a one chance in a lifetime to see a total eclipse of the sun.

So just to be very clear, you see a partial eclipse and you immediately think to yourself, That was fine, but I need the real thing. I need a full eclipse. And you happen to find out around this time that a real eclipse is coming, but in seven years.

Right. I mean, there were other eclipses between that time and seven years in the future, but they were in other parts of the world, and I couldn't buy an airplane ticket and fly to Europe or Australia. And by 1970, I'd been waiting for this. And by this point, I had just gotten a driver's license, and I convinced my parents to let me drive the car 600 miles down into the path of totality to see this great event.

Wow. Wait, from where to where?

From Staten Island, New York, down to a little town in North Carolina.

How did you convince your parents to let you do that?

I mean, that's- Well, I had seven years to work on it.

Right.

I was just a nerdy kid. I didn't get into trouble. I was interested in science. I was out in the woods studying frogs and wildlife and stuff. So this is just a natural progression of the type of things I would normally do.

Right. Okay. So I wonder if you can describe this journey you end up taking from Staten Island. How does the trip unfold as you're headed on this 600-mile?

So I think on March sixth, 1970, it was a Friday. My friend and I left to drive to the Eclipse path. We probably got on the road probably at 05:00 AM because it was going to be a very long day. And we've got a detailed map in the car, which I've plotted the Eclipse path on. And we're just trying to get far enough south to get into the path of the Eclipse, which for us is Eastern, most Virginia or Eastern, North Carolina. And I drive and drive and drive all day long, very long day. We get down to North Carolina right about maybe 6:00 PM, and we just see this little town in North Carolina that we're driving through, and it happens to have a convenient motel right in the center of the path. And that was good enough. Got a room available, and we check in, and that's where we're going to watch the eclipse from. And the next morning was Eclipse Day. It was a bright, crisp, sunny morning. There weren't any clouds at all in the sky. And I was amazed that outside the back of the motel in this grassy field, there were dozens and dozens of people with telescopes out there, specifically there for the Eclipse that morning.

We were really excited about this. We set up my telescope, and we had another camera set up to watch it. And we walked around and marveled at some of the other people and their telescopes and discussed the Eclipse with them. The Eclipse started probably around noon or one in the afternoon.

Describe the actual event itself, the eclipse. How did it begin?

Well, all solar eclipses begin as a partial eclipse, and the sun is gradually covered by the moon as the moon takes larger and larger pieces out of the sun as it slowly falls across the sun's surface. And you don't really notice much going on with a naked eye. It's really only in the last 10 minutes or so that you start to notice changes in the environment because now enough of the sun has been covered, upwards of maybe 90% of the sun, and you start to notice the temperature falling. There's a chill in the air. Also, since so much of the sun is covered, the daylight starts to take on an anemic quality. It's weak. The sun is still too bright to look at, but the surroundings, the environment is not as bright as it was a half hour earlier. You start to notice animals reacting to the dwindling sunlight. They start acting like it's sunset and they start performing some of their evening rituals like birds roosting, perhaps calling their their evening songs. And plants start closing up in the dropping sunlight and in the dropping temperatures. And there's an acceleration now of all these effects.

The temperature drop, the drop in the sunlight, it starts happening faster and faster and getting darker and darker. And maybe about a minute before the total eclipse began, we noticed strange patterns on the ground beneath us on the grassy field that we were on, these ripples racing across the field. And these are something called shadow bands. They look a lot like the rippling patterns that you would see on the bottom of a swimming pool, bands of light and dark, and moving very quickly across the ground. The sky is a dark blue, and it's getting darker rapidly in this dwindling sunlight. And you go from daylight to twilight in just 10 or 20 seconds. It's almost like someone has the hand on the reostat, turns the house lights down in the theater. You just see the light just go right down. And the sky gets dark enough that the corona, the outer atmosphere of the sun, starts emerging from the background sky. This ring or halo of gas that surrounds the sun, and it's visible around the moon, which is in silhouette against the sun. And along one edge of the moon is this bright beat of sunlight because that's the last remaining piece of the sun before it becomes total.

And And this is the diamond ring effect because you've got the ring of the Corona and this dazzling jewel along one edge of it. You only get to see this for 10 or 15 seconds. It's very fleeting before the moon completely covers the sun's disk. And totality begins. Suddenly, you're in this twilight of the moon's shadow. And you look around the horizon, and you're seeing the colors of sunrise or sunset, 360 degrees around the horizon because you're looking at the edge of the moon's shadow. And looking back up into the sky, the sun is gone now, and you see this black disk of the moon in silhouette, surrounded by the sun's corona.

Maybe this is more about my nature than anything else, but what you're describing a little bit feels like the end of the world.

Well, I think when you see this all transpire, you can easily understand how people thought this was the end of the world because it seems far outside of the realms of nature. It seems supernatural. So you can see how people panicked that didn't understand what was going on.

That was not your reaction?

No. I think it's a sense of belonging, belonging to this incredible universe, both belonging and a humbleness that how minuscule we are, and yet we're a part of this fantastic cosmic wheel of motion in the solar system. You almost get a three-dimensional sense of the motions of the Earth and the moon around the sun when you you see this clockwork displayed right in front of you, this mechanics of the Eclipse taking place. It's almost like lifts you up off the planet and you can look back down at the solar system and see how it's all put together. And you've only got, in that case, in that particular eclipse, it was only two and a half minutes to look at this.

Well, there's a clock in your head saying you don't have much of this.

You don't have much of it. It almost seems like time stops. And at the same time, all of a sudden, the eclipse is over. Those two minutes just raced by, and it's over. All of a sudden, the diamond ring forms again on the opposite side of the moon as the sun starts to become uncovered at the end of totality. And the diamond ring appears. It grows incredibly bright in just a few seconds, and you can't look at it anymore. It's too bright. You got to put your filters back on and cover your telescope with a solar filter so it doesn't get damaged. And you're trembling because of this event. Everybody was cheering and shouting and yelling. I mean, you would have thought you were at a sports game and the home team just scored a countdown. Just everybody screaming at the top of their lungs. And I immediately started thinking that this can't be a once in a lifetime experience. I've got to see this again.

We'll be right back.

Okay, so, Fred, it's the early 1970s, and you are not Mr. Eclipse yet. You're just a kid who felt something very big when you watched an Eclipse. So how did you end up becoming the premier authority that you now are on eclipses?

Well, after that 1970 Eclipse, I started looking into upcoming solar eclipses so I could get a chance to see the Sun's Corona again. And the next total eclipse was in Eastern Canada Canada in July of 1972. And I started thinking about that eclipse. And by then I was going to be in college. And I started planning because that one was still something I could drive to. It was 1,200 miles instead It was 600 miles. So the summer of 1972 rolls around. And I drove up to the eclipse in Quebec to see totality, and was unfortunately clouded out of the eclipse. I saw some of the partial face spaces, but clouds moved in and obscured the sun for that view of the Sun's Corona.

You were robbed.

I was robbed. And I realized, well, I've got to expand my outlook on what's an acceptable distance to travel to see a total eclipse. Because the next total eclipse then in 1973 was through the Sahara Desert in Northern Africa. So I traveled to the Sahara Desert for the eclipse, where we had decent weather, not perfect, strict, but decent weather. Then we got to see totality there.

You saw totality in the desert?

In the desert, in the Sahara Desert. After that, it was just trying to get to every total eclipse I possibly could get to.

At this point, you're clearly starting to become an eclipse chaser. I don't even know if such a thing existed at that moment.

Yeah, I don't know if it was called that then, but certainly, yeah.

If you'll permit me a question that might seem maybe dopey to someone in your field. After you've Between one or two or three of these, do they start to blend in together and become a little bit the same?

Not at all. Each one is distinctly different. The sun itself is dramatically different. The sun's corona is different at each eclipse because the corona is a product of the sun's magnetic field, and that magnetic field is changing every day. So the details, the fine structure the Sun's Corona is always different. So every eclipse is dramatically different, the appearance of the Sun's Corona.

Right. If you look at one Renoir, it's not the same as the next one. You're describing the Corona of each eclipse as its own work of art, basically.

Exactly. Yeah.

So as you're chasing these eclipses around the world, what is the place of an eclipse in your day-to-day academic studies, and soon enough, your professional? Work.

So I went to grad school at University of Toledo and did some work at the Kit Peek National Observatory, learning the ins and outs of photometric photometry that is measuring the brightness of stars. And eventually this led to a job opening at the NASA Guided Space Flight Center. And I got interested in the idea of predicting eclipses and started studying the mathematics of how to do this. And I took it over unofficially and started publishing these technical maps and details. And we published about a dozen books through NASA on upcoming eclipses. People would just write me a letter and say they wanted a copy of the Eclipse Bulletin for such and such an eclipse. And I would stuff it in an envelope and mail it to them.

So you take it upon yourself to make sure that everyone is going to know when the next eclipse is coming. Yes. And no doubt during this period, you keep going to each and every eclipse. And I wonder which of them stand out to you?

Well, I've seen total eclipses from Australia, from Africa, from the Altiplanos in Bolivia, from the ice sheet on the Coast of Antarctica, and even from a northern China on the edge of the Gobi Desert. But one of the most notable eclipses for me was I traveled to India to see a 41-second eclipse, which was very short. And besides seeing a great eclipse in India, I also met my future wife there. She was on the same trip.

I have to hear that story.

Well, she had been trying to see a total eclipse for about 25 years. Wow. She tried to see the 1970 eclipse, but her friends who were going to drive down from Pennsylvania down to North Carolina, talked her out of it at the 11th hour.

They talked her out of seeing the same eclipse that was your first total eclipse that was so important to you. Yes.

And they talked her out of it because from Pennsylvania, they were going to have a maybe a 90% eclipse. They didn't know any better. They thought that was good enough. And she regreted that decision. So then she said, Okay, well, I got to get to the next total Eclipse, which was in Quebec in 1972, the same one that was my second Eclipse. And we were probably within five miles of each other in Quebec, and we were both clouded out. Right. Then she was married, she was raising kids, she got busy with domestic life for 20 years. She became a widow. So now, 1995, there's this 41 second eclipse in India that is very difficult to get to. It's halfway around the world, but she's still itching to see a total eclipse. And we join the same expedition, a travel group of 30 eclipse chasers, and end up in India for the eclipse. And we have fantastic weather. It's perfect. She was in tears after totality. She had been waiting so long to see it, and we struck up a friendship on that trip. By the time the 1998 Eclipse was taking place in the Caribbean, at that point, we were together.

That was our first Eclipse to observe as a couple. I think our wedding cake had a big Eclipse on the top of the cake. Perfect. We made a music CD for the wedding that we played during the reception. And of course, all the music on the CD had sun and moon themes to it. Nothing I could say, a totally Eclipse of the Heart. Of course, I had a total Eclipse of the Heart. It was a must-have.

Had to. Had to. It strikes me, Fred, that eclipses are such an organizing principle in your life. Your life seems to literally orbit around them. When you were a kid, you started planning for them years in advance. This work becomes central to your career. It's how you meet your wife. You said when I asked you about each eclipse that they're all different, and obviously, you're different at each eclipse because time has passed. Your life has changed, and it just feels like your life is being lived in a ongoing conversation with this phenomenon of the sun and the moon overlapping.

Well, the eclipses are like benchmarks that I can use to figure out what else was going on in my life during these times. Because I remember the dates of every single eclipse I've been to. And if I see a photograph of the solar corona shot during any particular eclipse, I know what eclipse that was. I can recognize the pattern of the Corona like a fingerprint. That's amazing. And I know the year of the eclipse. It reminds me of when Pat and I got married and between which eclipse we were getting married and had to plan our wedding so it didn't interfere with any eclipse trips. And they just serve as a benchmark or markers for the rest of my life of when various eclipses take place. So they're It's easy for marking the passage of time.

So we are, of course, talking to you a few days before this year's Eclipse, which I cannot fathom you missing. So where are you planning to watch this total Eclipse?

Pat and I are leaving for Mazatlán, Mexico, actually tomorrow. We've got about 80 people joining us down in Mazatlán for this Eclipse in our tour group.

For For you, of course, this year's Eclipse is just the latest in a very long line of eclipses. But I think for the rest of us, and here I'm thinking about myself, this is really going to be my first total Eclipse, at least that I can remember. For my two little kids, it's absolutely going to be their first. Given the hard-earned wisdom that you've accumulated in all your decades of chasing eclipses around the world, I wonder if you can give us just a little bit of advice for how to best live inside this very brief window of a total solar eclipse, to make sure, not to be cliched, but that we make it count.

Well, I think one mistake that people tend to make is getting preoccupied with recording everything in their lives, what they had for lunch, what they had for dinner. And seeing the eclipse is something that you want to witness firsthand. Try to be present in seeing the eclipse in in the moment of it. So don't get preoccupied with recording every instant of it. Sit back and try to take in the entire experience because those several minutes pass by so rapidly, but you'll replay them in your mind over and over and over again. And you don't want technology getting between you and that experience. And remember to take your eclipse glasses off when totality begins. Note how dark it gets during totality.

Take the glasses off because...

Well, the glass glasses protect your eyes from the sun's bright disk. But when totality begins, the sun's bright disk is gone. So if you use your solar eclipse glasses to try to look at the corona, you won't see anything. You'll just see blackness. You've got to remove the eclipse glasses in order to see the Corona. And it's completely safe. And it's an incredible sight to behold. But during totality, you just want to look around without the glasses on and take in the sights, take in the horizon, three 360 degrees, surrounding you with these twilight colors and sunset colors. You'll easily be able to see Jupiter and Venus shining on either side of the sun during totality. And look at the details in the sun's corona. Fine wispy textures and any possible red prominences, hugging against the moon's disk during totality.

And let's say it's now the moment of totality, and you, Mr. Eclipse can whisper one thing into someone's ear as they're watching, what would you say to them?

Enjoy. Just take it all in.

Well, Fred, thank you very much. We really appreciate it.

No, thank you. I hope everybody has some clear sky.

Me too.

After today, the next total solar eclipse to be visible from the continental United States will occur 20 years from now in 2044. In other words, you might as well watch Today's. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. Israel has fired two officers in connection with the deadly airstrike on aid workers from the World Central Kitchen who were killed last week while delivering food to civilians in Gaza. In a report released on Friday, Israel blamed their deaths on a string of errors made by the military. The airstrike, Israel said, was based on insufficient and incorrect evidence that a passenger traveling with the workers was armed. Meanwhile, Israel said it withdrawn a division of ground troops from Southern Gaza on Sunday, leaving no soldiers actively patrolling the area. The move raises questions about Israel's strategy as the war drags into its sixth month. In particular, it cast doubt on Israel's plans to invade Raqqa, Gaza's Southernmost city, an invasion that the United States has asked Israel not to carry out for fear of large-scale civilian casualties. Today's episode was produced by Sydney Harper and Alex Stern, with help from Will Reid and Jessica Cheung.

It was edited by Devon Taylor, fact-checked by Susan Lee, contains original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Alicia Baetup, and Cory Schreppel, and sound by Alicia Baetup and Dan Powell. It was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansberg of Wunderly. Special thanks to Anthony Wallace. That's it for the Daily. I'm Michael Mabara. See you tomorrow.