I'm David Marquesi. And I'm Lulu Garcia-Navarro.

We're the hosts of The Interview from The New York Times.

David and I have spent our careers interviewing some of the most interesting and influential people in the world. Which means we know when to ask tough questions and when to just sit back and listen. Now we've teamed up to have these conversations every week. We'll try to reveal something about the people shaping our world.

We'll get some great stories from them, too.

It's The Interview from The New York Times. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

From New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Free, free Palestine.

Over the past week, What had begun as a smattering of pro-Palestinian protests on America's college campuses exploded into a nationwide movement. Our people, United, will never be defeated.

As students at dozens of universities held demonstrations, set up encampments, and at times, seized academic buildings. In response, administrators at many of those colleges decided to crack down.

Do not go think that our officers. We will use chemical munitions to include gas.

Calling in local police to carry out mass detentions and arrests from Arizona State.

In the name of the State of Arizona, I declare this gathering to be a violation of aera 13.

To the University of Georgia. To City College of New York.

As of Thursday, police had arrested 2,000 students on more than 40 campuses.

A situation so startling that President Biden could no longer ignore it.

Look, it's basically It's a matter of fairness. It's a matter of what's right. There's the right to protest, but not the right to cause chaos.

Today, my colleagues Jonathan Wolf and Peter Baker on a history-making week. It's Friday, May third. Jonathan, as this tumultuous week on college campuses comes to an end, it feels like the extraordinary scenes played out on the campus of the University of California, Los Angeles, where you have been reporting. What is the story of how that protest started and ultimately became so explosive?

So late last week, pro-Palestinian protestors set up an encampment at the University of California, Los Angeles. It was right in front of Royce Hall, which I don't know if you are familiar with UCLA, but it's a very famous red brick building. It's on all the brochures. And there was two things that stood out about this encampment. And the first thing was that they barricaded the encampment. The encampment, complete with tents and barricades, has been set up in the middle of the Westwood campus. The protesters demand-They have metal grates, they had wooden pallets, and they separated themselves from the campus.

This is interesting. They're controlling access, as we've been talking about.

They trying to control who is allowed in, who is allowed out. They policed the area so they only would let people that were part of their community, they said, inside.

I'm a UCLA student. I deserve to go here. We pay tuition.

This is our school, and they're not letting me walk in.

Why can't I go? Will you let me go in?

We're not engaging. Then you can move.

Will you move?

The second thing that stood out about this camp was that it immediately attracted pro-Israel counter protester.

What did the leadership of UCLA say about all of this, the encampment and these counterprotesters?

The University of California's approach was pretty unique. They had a really hands-off approach, and they allowed the pro-Palestine protester to set up an encampment. They allowed the counterprotesters to happen. I mean, this is a public university, so anyone who wants to can just enter the campus.

When do things start to escalate?

There were definitely fights and scuffles through the weekend, but a turning point was really Sunday. When this group called the Israeli-American Council, they're a nonprofit organization, organized a rally on campus. The Israeli-American Council has really been against these pro-Palestinian protests. They say that they're anti-Semitic. So this nonprofit group sets up a stage with a screen, really just a few yards from the pro-Palestinian encampment.

We are grateful that this past Friday, the University of California stated that they will continue to oppose any calls for boycott and divestment from Israel.

And they host speakers, and they held prayers.

Jewish students, you're not alone. Oh, you're not alone. We are right here with you. We are right here with you, Israel.

Then lots of other people start showing up, and the proximity between protesters and counterprotesters, and even some agitators, makes it really clear that something was about to What was that?

What ended up happening?

On Monday night, a group of about 60 counterprotesters tried to breach the encampment there, and the campus police had to break it up. Things escalated again on Tuesday. They stormed the barricades, and it's a complete riot. I went to report on what happened just a few hours after it ended.Hello.Hi. I spoke to a lot of protesters, and I I met one demonstrator, Marie. Yeah, my first name is Marie, M-A-R-I-E, often named Salem. Are you a UCLA student? I'm a UCLA grad student. Marie described what happened. Can you just tell me a little bit about what happened last night?

Last night, we were approached by over 100 counterprotesters who were very mobilized and ready to break into camp.

They proceeded to try to breach our barricades extremely violently. Marie said it started getting out of hand when counter purchasers started setting off fireworks towards the camp. They had bear spray, they had mace, they were throwing wood, like spears, throwing water bottles, continuing the fireworks. She said that they were terrified. It was just all hands on deck. Everyone was guarding the barricades.

Every time someone experienced the bear spray or a mace or was hit and bleeding, we had some medics in the front line, and then we had people.

They said that they were just trying to take care of people who are injured. I mean, at any given moment, there is 5 to 10 people being treated. What she described to me sounded more like a battlefield than a college campus. It was just a complete terror and complete abandonment of the university, as we also watched private security, watched this the entire time on the stairs. Some LAPD were stationed about football field length back from these counterprotesters and did not make a single arrest, did not attempt to stop any violence, did not attempt to get in between the two groups. No attempt. I should say, I spoke to state authorities and eyewitness, and they confirmed Marie's account about what happened that night, both in terms of the violence that took place at the encampment and how law enforcement responded. In the end, people up fighting for hours before the police intervened.

In her mind, UCLA's hands-off approach, which seemed to have prevailed throughout this entire period, ends up being way too hands-off in a moment when students were in jeopardy.

That's right. At this point, the protesters in the encampment started preparing for two possibilities. One was that this group of counterprotesters would return and attack them. The second The second one was that the police would come and try to break up this encampment. They start building up the barricades. They start reinforcing them with wood. During the day, hundreds of people came and brought them supplies. They brought food, they brought helmets, goggles, ear plugs, a salient solution, all things these people could use to defend themselves. They're really getting ready to burrow in. In the end, it was the police who came.

Wednesday at 07:00 PM, they made an announcement on top of the voice hall, which overlooks the encampment.

Administrative criminal actions, up to, including arrest.

Please leave the area immediately.

They told people in the encampment that they needed to leave or face arrest. As Night Falls, they put on all this gear that they've been collecting, the goggles, the masks, and the earplugs, and they wait for the police. The police arrive and station themselves right in front of the encampment. Then at a certain point, they storm the back stairs of the encampment. This is the stairs that the protesters have been using to enter and exit the camp. They set up a line, and the protesters do this really surprising thing. They open up the umbrella, they have these strobe lights, and they're flashing them at the police who just slowly back out of the camp. At this point, they're feeling really great. They're like, We did it. We pushed them out of the camp. When the cops try to push again on those same set of stairs... Hold your ground. The protesters just organize themselves with all these shields that they had built earlier, and they go and confront them. There's this moment where the police are trying to push up the stairs, and the protesters are literally pushing them back. Push them back.

Push them back. Push them back. Push them back.

At a certain point, dozens of the police officers who were there basically just turn around and leave.

How does this eventually come to an end?

At a certain point, the police push in again. Most of the conflict is centered at the front of these barricades. The police just start tearing them apart. They remove the front barricade, and in its place is this group of protesters who have linked arms, and they're hanging on to each other. The police are trying to pull protesters one away from this group. But they're having a really hard time because there's so many protesters, and they're all just hanging on to each other. At a certain point, one of the police officers started firing something into the crowd. We don't exactly know what it was, but it really spuked the protesters. Stop shooting that thing. They started falling back. Everyone was was really scared. The protesters were yelling, Don't shoot us. At that point, the police just stormed the camp. Get back, get back, get back. After about four hours of this, the police pushed the protesters out of the encampment. They had arrested about 200 protesters, and this was finally over.

I'm just curious, Jonathan, because you're standing right there. You are bearing witness to this all. What you're thinking, what your impressions of this were.

I mean, I was stunned. These are mostly teenagers. This is a college campus, an institution of higher learning. And what I saw in front of me looked like a warzone. The massive barricades, the police coming in with riot gear, and all this violence was happening in front of these red brick buildings that are famous for symbolizing a really open college campus. Everything about it was just totally surreal.

Well, Jonathan, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

Thanks, Michael.

We'll be right back.

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I'm David Marquezi. And I'm Lulu Garcia-Navarro.

And we're the hosts of The Interview from The New York Times.

David and I have spent our careers interviewing some of the most interesting and influential people in the world. Which means we know when to ask tough questions and when to just sit back and listen. And now we've teamed up to have these conversations every week. We'll try to reveal something about the people shaping our world.

We'll get some great stories from them, too.

It's The Interview from The New York Times. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Peter, around 10:00 AM on Thursday morning, as the smoke is literally still clearing at the University of California, Los Angeles, you get word that President Biden is going to speak.

Right, exactly. It wasn't on his public schedule. He was about to head to Andrew's Air Force base in order to take a trip. Then suddenly, we got the notice that he was going to be addressing the cameras in the Roosevelt Room. They didn't tell us what he was going to talk about, but it was pretty clear, I think, everybody understood that it was going to be about these campus protests, about the growing violence and the clashes with police and the arrest that the entire country had been watching on TV every night for the past week. I think that we were watching just that morning with UCLA, and it reached the point where he just had to say something.

Why, in his estimation and those of his advisors, was this the moment that Biden had to say something.

Well, it reached a boiling point. It reached the impression of a national crisis. You expect to hear your president address it in this a moment, particularly because it's about his own policy. His policy toward Israel is at the heart of these protests. Us. And he was getting a lot of grief. He was getting a lot of grief from Republicans who were chiding him for not speaking out personally. He hadn't said anything in about 10 days. He's got a lot of pressure from Democrats, too, who wanted him to come out and be more forceful. It wasn't enough in their view to leave it to his spokespeople to say something. Moderate Democrats felt he needed to come out and take some leadership on this.

And so at the appointed moment, Peter, what does Biden actually say in the Roosevelt Room of the White House?

Good morning. Before Before I head to North Carolina, I wanted to speak for a few moments about what's going on on our college campuses here. Well, he comes in the Roosevelt Room and he talks to the camera. He talks about the two clashing imperatives of American principle. The first is the right to free speech and for people to peacefully assemble and make their voices heard. The second is the rule of law. Both must be upheld. One is freedom of speech, the other is the rule of law. In fact, peaceful The protest is in the best tradition of how Americans respond to consequential issues. But, but, neither are we a lawless country. In other words, what he's saying is, yes, I support the right of these protesters to come out and object to even my own policy, in effect, is what he's saying, but it shouldn't trail into violence. Destroying property is not a peaceful protest. It's against the law. Vandalism, trespassing, breaking windows, shutting down campuses. He shouldn't trail into taking over buildings and obstructing students from going to class or canceling their graduation. Threatening people, intimidating people, instilling fear in people is not peaceful protest.

It's against the law. And he leans very heavily into this idea that what he's seeing these days goes beyond the line. I understand people have strong feelings and deep convictions. In America, we respect the right and protect the right for them to express that. But it doesn't mean anything goes. It is crossed into harassment and expressions of hate in a way that go against the national character. As President, I will always defend free speech, and I will always be just as strong as standing up for the rule of law. That's my responsibility to you, the American people, my obligation to the Constitution. Thank you very much.

As I watched the speech, I heard his overriding message to basically be, I, the President of the United States, I'm drawing a line. These protests and counter protests, the seizing and defacing of campus buildings, class disruption, all of it, name calling, it's getting out of hand that there's a right way to do this, and what I'm seeing is the wrong way to do it, and it has to stop.

That's exactly right. As he's wrapping up, reporters, of course, ask questions. The first question is- Mr. President, have the protests forced you to reconsider any of the policies with regard to the region? Will this change your policy toward the war in Gaza? Which, of course, is exactly what the protesters want. That's the point. He basically says, No. No. Just one word, no.

That felt important, as brief and fleeting as it was, because at the end of the day, what he's saying to these protesters is, I'm not going to do what you want. Basically, your protests are never going to work. I'm not going to change the US's involvement in this war.

Yeah, that's exactly right. He's saying, I'm not going to be swayed by angry people in the streets. I'm going to do what I think is right when it comes to foreign policy. Now, what he thinks is that they're not giving him enough credit for trying to achieve what they want, which is an end of the war. He has been pressuring Israel and Hamas to come to a deal for a ceasefire that hopefully, in his view, would then lead to a more enduring end of hostilities. But of course, this deal hasn't gone anywhere. Hamas, in particular, seems to be resisting it. And so the President has left with a policy of arming Israel without having found a way yet to stop the war.

Right. I wonder, though, Peter, if we're being honest, don't these protests, despite what Biden is saying there, inevitably exert a power over him, becoming one of many pressures, but a pressure nonetheless that does influence how he thinks about these moments I mean, here he is at the White House devoting an entire conversation to the nation to these campus protests.

Well, look, he knows this feeds into the political environment in which he's running for re-election, in which he basically has people who otherwise might be his supporters on the left disenchanted with him. He knows that there's a cost to be paid, and that certainly obviously is in his head as he's thinking about what to do. But I think his view of the war is changing by the day for all sorts of reasons. And most of them having to do with realities on the ground. He has decided that Israel has gone far enough, if not too far, in the way it has conducted this operation in Gaza. He is upset about the humanitarian crisis there, and he's looking for a way to wrap all this up into a move that would move to peace-making, beginning to get the region to a different stage, maybe have a deal with the Saudis to normalize relations with Israel and exchange for some a two-state solution that would eventually resolve the Palestinian issue at its core. I think it's probably fair to say that the protests won't move him in an immediate sense, but they obviously play into the larger zeitgeist of the moment.

I also think it's important to know who Joe Biden is at heart.

Explain that.

He's not drawn to activism. He was around in 1968, the last time we saw this major conflagration at Columbia University, for instance. At the time, Joe Biden was a law student in Syracuse, about 250 miles away. And he was institutionalist. Even then, he was just focused on his studies. He was about to graduate. He was thinking about the law career. And he didn't really have much of an affinity, I think, for his fellow students of that era for their activist way of looking at things. He tells a story in his memoir about walking down the street in Syracuse one day to go to the pizza shop with some friends, and they walk by the administration building They see people hanging out of the windows. They're hanging SDS banners. That's the students for a Democratic Society, which was one of the big activist groups of the era. And he says, They were taking over the building, and we looked up and said, Look at those assholes. That's how far apart from the anti-war movement I was. That's him writing in his memoir.

To a young Joe Biden, those who devote their time and their energy to protesting the war are, I don't need to repeat the word twice, But they're losers. They're not worth his time.

Well, I think it's the tactics they're using more than the goals that he disagree with. He would tell you he disagree with the Vietnam War. He was for civil rights. But he thought that taking over a building was performative, was all about getting attention, and that there was a better way, in his view, to do it. He was somebody who wants to work inside the system. He said in an interview quite a few years back, he said, Look, I was wearing sports coats in that era. He saw himself becoming part of the system, not somebody trying to tear it down.

And so how should we think about that Joe Biden when we think about this Joe Biden? I mean, the Joe Biden who, as a young man, looked upon anti-war protesters with disdain and the one who is now President and his very own policies have inspired such ferocious campus protests.

Yeah. That Joe Biden, the 1968 Joe Biden, he could just throw on his sports coat, go to the pizza shop with his friends, make fun of the activists and call them names, and then that's it. They didn't have to affect his life. But that's not what 2024 Joe Biden can do. Now, wherever he goes, he's dogged by this. He goes to speeches and people are shouting at him, Genocide Joe, Genocide Joe. He is the target of the same a movement that he disdained in And so as much as he would like to ignore it or move on or focus on other things, I think this has become a defining image of his year. And one of the defining images, perhaps, of his presidency. And 2024, Joe Biden can't simply ignore it.

Well, Peter, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

Thank you.

We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. During testimony on Thursday in Donald Trump's Hush Money Trial, jurors heard a recording secretly made by Trump's former fixer, Michael Cohen, in which Trump discusses a deal to buy a woman's silence. In the recording, Trump asks Cohen about how one payment made by Trump to a woman named Karen McDougal would be financed. The recording could complicate efforts by Trump's lawyers to distance him from the hush money deals at the center of the trial. A final thing to know. Tomorrow morning, we'll be sending you the latest episode from our colleagues over at The Interview. This week, David Markezi talks with Comedy star Marlon Wands about his new stand-up special.

It's a high that you get when you don't know if this joke that I'm about to say is going to offend everybody, or they're going to walk out, or they're going to boo me, or they're going to hate this, and you tell it, and everybody cracks up and you're like, whew.

Today's episode was produced by Diana Wyn, Luke Vandeplug, Alexander Lee Young, Nina Feldman, and Carlos Prieto. It was edited by Lisa Chou and Michael Benoît, contains original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansberg of Wunderly. That's it for the Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro.. See you on Monday.