You're listening to DraftKings Network. This is the Dan Levatore Show with the Stugats podcast.

David Samson, John Skipper. Thank you for coming on. Again, as always on the Sporting Class, Rich guy OnlyFans, as I like to say.

I feel like we'd earn more money if we were actually an OnlyFans account, and I have shoes on.

I'm pretty sure I'm not getting paid for this show.

Actually, I think you're paying.

I'm not paying myself.

We're currently paying David to not show his feet on camera, actually, specifically. Before we get into what we're here to talk about today, I want to point out, in the world of sports This is a business. I'm Pablo Torre finds out this week, we have a giant story I'm very proud of. It's an investigation by a company called Hunterbrook Media. We interviewed the reporter on that story, into Matt Ischbia, into the Phoenix Suns, Isaiah Thomas. All that stuff is over there. It's a bit of a live story. We'll cover it, revisit it as the days and weeks come. But I want to get into what we are safely able to say today because there is news that is, I think, underrated when it comes to its influence on sports and the sports business economy. Because this Disney investor-shareholder meeting fight, there's an activist investor named Nelson Peltz, an activist shareholder, David Samson. What is at stake here? What has been resolved that we can say as we cover this story endlessly, the future of sports rights?

It's a proxy battle. The reason why it's interesting is, of course, ESPN is owned by Disney. Disney is a large company that has a board of directors. When you invest enough money into a company, you feel like you want to say in how it's operated. And so there are hedge funds that take positions in companies. There's individuals sometimes who take positions. Nelson Peltz is an individual who loves buying big chunks of companies and then telling them how to do their job better by I'm saying, I'll do it better. I want to get on the board of directors, and I want to influence the future of this company. Nelson Peltz did it with Disney, and ESPN was really his focus, thinking that we can do better here with ESPN, whether it's to spin it off or whether it's to spin off the streaming network. We need Disney shares to perform better. What activist shareholders do is they buy shares, and they want those share prices to go up, and they don't care about sports or-In fact, you know more about this than I do.

The Pelts went into this with the intention of accumulating shares, creating some level of what he would call activism, what other people would call interference in the running of the Walt Disney Company. He's doing it for the sole purpose of hoping that investors will believe him, drive the shares up, and he'll make money and sell, I think. What it means from yesterday-Hars. The way he just described that. What it means from yesterday doesn't mean anything. I never thought this guy had a shot at doing this. Generally, the overwhelming share of the institutional investors in Disney and all the mom and pop guy, folks who own Disney because they have beloved feelings about it, are going to support Bob Iger. He's consistent to delivered with an exception of a very difficult 2022. I don't think this is part of the continuing discussion about should they sell ESPN? I've consistently said there's no reason to sell ESPN. Still puts off a lot of cash. Sports is still very important. Why would you abandon that? This is, I think, an affirmation that the majority of people think that the way Disney is running this is the right way to go.

I've heard you tow the corporate line before, but this may be an all-timer because you are absolutely having total disregard to share price and the valuation and the fact that under Iger in this second time around, remember, he took over after leaving because he wasn't happy with who he put in as his own successor. Now he's been back. The shares have not performed. This year, they're better. They certainly are performing this year. But you act as though what Nelson Pelt is doing, and he's no saint. He is the original Richard Gere from Pretty Woman. That's what he does without having ever met Julia Roberts. He buys stuff and wants to tear it apart to see if the parts are more than the whole, or he'll buy parts of a company, trying to get more of the company to get the share up, of course, to make money.

That's your summary of Pretty Woman's plot?

I think so. Isn't that what Pretty Woman is about?

I can't quite recollect, and I also think that's probably territory I'm not headed into at all because we're no longer A number of the days when I think it can be funny that you-I just am fascinated as how David Samson sees, of course, activist investing in the plot of Pretty Woman.

But I digress, John.

Excuse me. No, that was much more entertaining than anything That's the thing I have to add at this point.

No, I think what you added was exceptionally telling to me because Bob Iger, who is the CEO of Disney, he doesn't want shareholders getting up in his business. No chairman does, no president does. However, in a public company, there are activists. Nelson Peltz has done this before with other companies which aren't being run as efficiently as he would like.

I would say there are two things. One is that, of course, it's appropriate it, in many cases, for there to be activist shareholders, because many companies have a better alternative and have been improved by that. In this case, I think what Nelson Peltz was suggesting would not have made Disney more valuable. I think it potentially could have driven the stock up briefly, but I don't really think so. I think that I have no problem with activism. I think in this case, he was wrong, and the shareholders were correct in affirming that Disney is doing what they need do, so they clearly still have some things to work through.

It's a big win for Bob Iger.Yes.Let's make no mistake about it.And.

For ESPN.

That's the interesting thing that I'm thinking about. Where is Jimmy Pataro in this? When these activist shareholders, when these proxy battles happen, you have to choose a horse. Now, Jimmy Pataro could have chosen the Nelson Peltz horse. He didn't, but he could have. It's what happens in the baseball world, in the corporate world, in every company.It's.

What happens at co-op boards.

Exactly right. Jimmy, there has to be a succession plan for Bob, which is what Nelson Peltz had really been talking about that he was concerned with.

Nelson brings with him Jay Rizulo, who was a former CFO, ran the parks at one point, and was a candidate for the CEO job and didn't get it. He's, I assume, bringing along, you'll understand this better than I did, he's bringing along the CEO he would probably install.

To replace Iger.

You're asking the question of, Gee, Jimmy, theoretically, could have done the same thing. I don't generally like to comment much on the people who are my former employer, just out of respect. But it is Jimmy Pataro's character would never allow him to do an uprising against Bob Iger. He's in the inner circle there. He and Bob are tight, and it's not within... He could not have done that.

I used to work at a place called Morgan Stanley, and there was an inner circle, and the inner circle was super tight until the succession plan became clear. Then all of a sudden, the inner circle was not as tight because people left who lost. If there's three people as a candidate to succeed, generally, what happens is the losers in that fight to be CEO, do not stay.

You have not seen, though, any of the folks other now than Jay Rizulo who have lost in this, they've not caused issues. They've left.

That's the same thing. But we had a flail. Jimmy hasn't yet, and he hasn't lost. He still could be a candidate in this succession.

I think Bob has a very tight inner circle, and I would be surprised if anybody currently employed by the company did anything close to that.

Can I just frame this around just how much this How does this matter, though, in terms of the financial outlay to win an election like this? How would you estimate that, David, the cost of this?

It was reported that about $70 million was spent, and there were ads on podcasts that you told me about.

Listening to the town, the Ringer podcast, and they played an ad about keeping the incumbent shareholder slate, board slate intact.

It was a presidential campaign. In the year that we have a presidential campaign, and I've spent a lot of time a little bit off the subject, but I'd love to mention this.

No, I want to know your insight into-Campaign.

I love the concept of campaign financing. I spoke to, and it's not a look at me, Louis, but there was an old senator. His name was Kent Conrad. Kent Conrad.

From the Dakotas. North Dakota, I think.

North A brilliant man who-I'm so proud of that poll, by the way.

You just winked at me.

Amazing. I thought it was more a Twitch, but okay. He always wanted to run a baseball team, and so we switched jobs for a day, and I was Senator for a day, and he was President of the Marlins for a day.

That is a nightmare on various levels.

My goodness. I went to DC. I'm only hoping there were no close votes in the Senate.

I learned about because he was very much in favor of curbing campaign financing because Because that leads to a lot of issues. I was thinking about it that the reason why incumbents like it is because they don't want to limit. Incumbents want there to be no limits on what you can spend because generally, incumbents benefit from it. Bob Iger spent a tremendous amount of money as the incumbent to keep power. To keep power. Nelson Peltz spent money like Ross Perot style in an effort to, that's an old reference maybe that will be lost on our audience.

I'm old enough to get it, unfortunately. Definitely.

Okay, then I feel better about the reference.

I use admiral Stockdale as a running mate.

It's tens of millions of dollars that Nelson Peltz will spend trying to get people to vote with him. Because what a proxy battle is, it literally is counting votes. If you own a share of stock, you get a vote. Like our elections, very few people voted. That's how Bob Iger, the incumbent, ends up winning.

As well as my co-op at home. A similar dynamic.

Maybe take it back to sports because what it does mean is that ESPN likely remains part of the Walt Disney Company. One of the groups of people who I think should be happy that this proxy fight didn't succeed are the rights holders. Because this means ESPN is still going to be right there as part of the company.A buyer in the marketplace.Yeah, a buyer in the marketplace.

I think it's still... I still think we have to watch because Bob Iger, while he's gotten a direct from the shareholders that he's going to stay in power, I think it's clear to him when you look at the past, and there have been many unsuccessful runs by Nelson Peltz at Iger, and he's done the highsman to all of them, but he needs to do something differently. I think he recognizes that. Espn, while you say it never would be in play, I think that there's a scenario where it is in play.

My tendency is to think that ESPN stays there. They've been active. They just renewed the Men's College Playoff Championship, which, by the way, is like winning a bet on a horse when it's five-eighths of the way through. They won when it was five-eighths. Now, they've won when it's six-eighths. I still hear people talking about 12 teams, 14 teams, 16. I'm not sure if they know what they've won yet, but they appear to have won the championship.

I was not aware. You think they bought the rights to no matter what the CFP is?

No, and I don't know that we need to get in here.

I think it's a specific number of games is what they got. I think that college football gets to go after other rights holders, though ESPN, of course, would bid if there were more and more games.

No, I don't believe I believe they bought it exclusively.

So they get every game, no matter how many games?

That would be my assumption.

Without having to pay more.

I can't tell you that. I know I've read that exact thing, but I don't know why. That's what I would have done. You would buy the whole thing. You want to be the home, and they are the home of college football. There's been a big dent in that when the Big Ten ended up in the hands of Fox. But we could talk.

I want to just put a button on this by pointing out that Nelson Pelt, this activist shareholder who tried to mount this revolution, is he just out of the picture now? I mean, David, I believe you have an even more egregious look at me, Louis, here that I'm just waiting for you to drop because Nelson Peltz is his character. I don't think I can.

It's funny, though. Well, I just wanted to know, what do you think he does? I grew up in Nelson Peltz's apartment.

Was he there while you were growing up?

No. Thankfully, he did.

Wait, was that the problem? Certainly wasn't the solution.

A rich guy only fan. I keep getting him some content.

I keep getting him He's with Norman Fell. Remember Norman Fell?

From Threes Company to Roper?

Yeah.

Now, I'm not on the reference. Whenever I think Nelson Peltz, I see Norman Fell's face.

Nelson Peltz happens to be has an amazing art collection. He lived in an apartment on the Upper East Side that was bought by my mother and stepfather. I went to high school with Nelson's A Horace Manor, and his kids were Horace Manors. I was in class with his daughter, Brook Peltz, who was one year older. He always He had this reputation. He was the father in the class who was this titan, but he's grown into a far more Murdoch type later in life. But he left little things in the apartment that we found for years after.

What does that mean?

Little paintings? I have this visual picture of little David Samson swinging as a two-year-old underneath Monet's lily's.

The most expensive bass in that.

I was seven.

Seven? And they were de Ga.Right. So out of the bassinet by seven?

It was Picasso, not Monet. It's okay for Nelson Peltz to love art. It's okay that Nelson Pels lost, but your question is a good one. He still owns all the shares.

Is this a recurring concern.

A hundred %. That's why to me, Bob Iger is not done worrying about it, because Nelson Peltz, when he lost the proxy battle, he doesn't have to sell his shares. Bob Iger wants him to divest and sell to someone else, but it doesn't mean Nelson Peltz will.

Okay, well, let's move on to what ESPN is doing this weekend, which is broadcasting a women's tournament that has hit records that are just unprecedented for women's college basketball and arguably for women's sports in general, because The rating that just came out this week for the number of people who watched LSU versus Iowa was 12.3 million. John, I just want to, again, as the former president of ESPN, just a sense of how eye-opening this number was for you.

This is an astonishing number. I mean, this number is bigger than NFL games on Amazon this year, on the Thursday night games. And by the way, when we had the poor Monday night football schedule, we had games on Monday night in this range. The fact that a women's college basketball regional final would attract 12.3 million viewers is spectacular. I mean, it's an enormous increase ESPN has to be thrilled. They've got a great tournament coming up this weekend. The only thing is Kaitlyn Clarke. You got Kaitlyn Clarke, you got South Carolina, you got Yukon, and NC State. As a Tar Hill, it's painful to see the Wolf back in both tournaments. But back to the ratings. It's enormous. I think they will do very, very well this weekend. They're up in the range of big-time men's sports championship ratings. This is a bigger rating. I don't know, David, wouldn't you like to get a 12.3 million viewers to a wild card game in baseball?

It's a nightmare for Major League Base and the NBA. It outdrew every NBA game except for last year's deciding game five. It outdrew every World Series game. It's a total nightmare. A nightmare from the perspective of people who-People in the league. If you own a team in basketball or baseball and you see this number for women's college basketball, you're despondent, and you will publicly say that everything's great and you love the fact and gender equality and all these things. There are meetings happening right now trying to make sure. Adam Silver, Rob Manford, believe me, he doesn't want his NBA Finals outrated by college basketball.

Look, this is a spectacular event. You had Angel Reece, you had Kaitlyn Clarke.

One of the greatest I've ever seen.

I don't think, personally, but you know the owners better than I do. I do know the commissioners that you and I both know them. I don't think that Adam is bemoaning or Rob is bemoaning today. Oh, my gosh, this is a disaster.Disaster..

Because it's not it.They don't want to be on every news show this week with everybody saying the same thing, which is this game outdrew the NBA Finals.It.

Also, in fairness, every college football game last season outside of the playoff in OSU, Michigan, in the SEC Championship.It's.

A phenomenon we should celebrate, and by which, not a zero-sum game. I'm assuming you're getting lots and lots of new viewers in. I mean, if you look at the crowd, although I think you were at the LSU.

What do you think? Everyone in the world knows he was there.

It's full of young girls who adore Caitlin Clarke. You've got new fans coming into sports. I think this is a thing. There's no reason to do anything except celebrate this, including more people watching more sports is good for all the primary sports. Well, I would be more worried if I was a secondary or tertiary sport that people only have so much time to spend. They want to spend it watching baseball games. They're not going to not watch baseball games because they're watching women's college basketball games. I think this is a great phenomenon, and I think we'll have big numbers this week. I'm not sure anything will beat 12-3.

That was my next question was, does this feel like the highest watermark which will remain as such, a peak, or is this what?

Kaylyn Clarke has to be in the final. For there to be a chance to beat that. If she's in the final, they could do 15 to 20 million viewers.

One of the things that I was thinking about is, hopefully this is, again, I'm putting my league hat on, and I'm a little not... I don't agree with you, John, from my standpoint, where I didn't say it was a disaster, but it's just a talking point that we don't want any part of when we're involved in league. You don't want the talking point-Dispondent, I believe, was the adjectivethe.Beyond repair. Caitlin Clarke, that's the only What we hope here is that she's the phenomenon, not the women's college basketball.

If you're rooting for your self-preservation in the hierarchy of sports ratings.

Correct, which is what they are all doing. But I wanted to think about the business side of this, and we're celebrating the 12.3. When negotiations come up and you're a rights holder and you're bidding for the women's tournament or for Iowa basketball or Big 15 or Big 17 coverage, the existence of Kaitlyn Clarke, who then goes to Indiana,Let's pretend-The number one overall pick in the draft, The Fever. Which I believe she'll go number one. I think The Fever have already announced it. They're already selling jerseys. Are you believing that this is a increase in the value of women's college sports, or are you saying this is a one-off and I will not compensate you for the number that was achieved?

Well, clearly, if you're the rights holder, you're going to suggest that this is the new bar. If you are negotiating with the rights holder, you can suggest, Well, you're not going to have any credibility. Say this is a phenomenon. This is going to fall right back down, and next year, the WNBA ratings will be the same as it were. This is going to lift things. The person selling the WNBA rights is in a better position to get more money, and there'll be a little back and forth about how much, but you're not going to have any effectiveness trying to suggest to the WNBA, Oh, Kaylyn Clarke is not going to matter. The women's sports is not itself overall going up. It is. They're going to... And by the way, ESPN just did the deal to renew all of the NCAA and the jewel within that deal, though there are very other good stones in there as well. But the jewel is the women's basketball tournament. They just bought It was worth that for what I think was reported for 56 million dollars of what they paid. That's a great buy. It included a lot of sports, but it didn't include the main ones.

It was not football, it was not basketball.

No, it was over $100 million. Maybe somebody can get. I recollect something, 110, 100, 1,200, and that 56 or 60 of that was attributed to women's basketball.

This is what Charlie Baker said, President of the NCAA. They valued the women's basketball rights specifically at around $65 million annually or roughly 56%, as John said, of the media rights portion of this deal.

By the way, at this point, they're high-fiving and going, We got a great deal, because this is a... I don't remember how long it was, how many years it was, This is an eight-year agreement, $920 million for the exclusive rights to 40 championships, including the Crown Jewel as John said. In the ninth year, it was eight-year deal? Eight-year deal. Eight-year deal. Eight-year deal. Eight-year of that deal, $65 million. It's an average annual, so it's not exactly the same every year, but that's going to look like a spectacular buy. I think this is going to become a phenomenon a year after year from now on.

That's a way to see where my head is. If they don't bifurcate WMBA and NBA rights, then the WMBA is exactly where it was. It's pretty much that simple for me. And I don't think that Adam Silver will do it, but he either will or won't. We're going to find out.

Hey, friends, it's Mike Ryan, and a lot has changed over the years. But one thing that hasn't, great and dependable taste, a Miller Light. It was the original light beer, and to this day, it is still the best one. Miller Light has more the taste that you want and less of the stuff that you don't. I was at a baseball game, and thank goodness they had Miller Light on tap. Hmm, taste buds. Electrified. Miller Light, you were always the right call. And that's why I love you so much. Then I turned to my friend, and I had a great conversation. Oh, Miller Light, you grease the rails for a good conversation better than anybody. Dog on it, Miller Light, you keep everything simple. With undebatable Quality, great taste, only 96 calories. It's the beer that strips away everything that you don't need and holds on to what matters most. Times change, but you can always enjoy the great taste of Miller Light. Tastes like Miller time. To get Miller Light delivered right to your door, visit millerlight. Com/dan, or you can pretty much find it anywhere that sells beer. Celebrate responsibly. Miller Brewing Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 96 calories per 12 ounces.

Don Levatard.

David Samson, weirdo. Because he was not...

He was not the fun substitute teacher who'd wheel out a TV and play a VHS tape of Armageddon in science class.

He was the weird one who would eat an egg salad sandwich while clipping his toenails into the trash can and ranting about Ronald Reagan. Still got The guy kept talking about how his ass was smooth, smoother than a newborn's cheek.

He wouldn't stop bragging about his bare buttocks to me. This is the Dan Levatard show with the Stugatz.

The fact that when you get the WMBA, you-When you get the MBA, you get...

It's like ESPN Ocho.

I'm not sure whether I've seen you reporting on whether they are separating the right sales or not.

We're going to find out because that's what I'm saying. They have not been so far.

The last deal, they were not. The last deal was a package deal.

Because the value was the NBA.

No, there was value in both of these. You know I'm not going to give you that one. I know you're not.

By the way-Give me another reason why you wouldn't split them up. What is the reason why you bundle assets?

We paid real money for the WNBA, the previous deal, and we knew that the value was greater in the next deal. I certainly cannot reveal any of the evaluations we did or what we talked about with the league, but the league valued them as well, and they got a nice increase.

Why can't you? You're a metalark now. Can you give us an idea of what you-It was not my decision whether to buy them separately or together.

They were, at that time, packaged together.

You're Adam Silver right now. Are you thinking women's sports is at a place? This is where my head is regarding this story these ratings because people talk about the ratings as though this is the moment for women's sports. I think those moments get manifested through monetization, and there's an opportunity for that monetization coming up.

Yeah. I can't tell you that I have any familiarity with what's going to happen. In fact, in the last one, it may have been only ESPN that bought it as a package because the other TNT did not buy the WNBA rights, so they bought only NBA rights last time.

It wasn't granted It ended up. There's some question, as you recall, is whether there was a desire to have it. Correct.

We wanted it. We may have wanted enough to buy it exclusively. I don't think TNT at the time wanted to buy a.

You're in different businesses. You need sports.

Yes. Also, we were committed to doing women's sports. While I know you will laugh and suggest, was it a good business or not, we believed in it. We believed it was coming. By the way, everything we spent is going to be confirmed that it was smart by this college women's basketball deal. This is the story. We invested in that, and that is why ESPN still retains the premier position for holding women's sports rights.

What's fascinating to me here is that this went from a thing that I think, rightfully, David, look, you're not alone in suggesting that there was almost a... When it comes to the business, the cold-heart capitalism of it, there was a benefit to the WMBA hiding inside of the NBA deal as opposed to having to subsist on its own. Now what we're seeing is this is not a nonprofit. There's always this sense of the WMBA, Women's College Basketball, you care about it because that's what socially conscious people should do. Now what we're seeing is, oh, people are watching this because they actually want to watch this thing. That, to me, is when I was growing up, I How do you not expect 12.3 million people to watch a game like this. It's just mind-blowing on that level.

How many women's games have you watched, Tip to tap, this season?

This season?Total.In the tournament, probably like a dozen.

That would put you on one end of the spectrum, I think. That's a lot.

I went to this game in person because I enjoy this.

That's not why you went in person. Let's not give me a break, would you?

Are we good?

No, it's burning up inside me that you want people to think that you went out of the business.

The rich guy only fan is you guys, not me.

No. You guys, not me. To the contrary. By the way, this is not hard to believe. There's always an event that everybody secretly wants to be at, right? It is an amazing fact that that event on this night when LSU played Iowa, that was the event that every sports fan would actually have liked to have been at. That is a remarkable thing. I want to May I use this to slightly comment upon the Kint Bab story?

Oh, sure. Kim Mulky, of course, had complained. We covered this before, John. You had taken interest in Kim Mulky, head coach of LSU, preemptively attacking the Washington Post and its reporter, Kent Bab, about a profile, a piece, I should say, an investigative piece, seemingly that was about to come out.

We talked about that last time, and it came out as expected. It actually was quite a insightful, powerful, 7,000-word look at the Kim Mulky way. It was pretty balanced, I thought. It did acknowledge her success. It acknowledged the loyalty of many of the players for her, acknowledged her drive, her determination. I thought there was much to admire. She, I believe, objected to Kent contacting her family members. But of course, that's de rigoure. If you're going to do something that gives you insight into a person, you need to understand where they came from, who If you can, who their parents were, and that happened. I just would tell you, if you want to do some reading after this wonderful LSU-Iowa game, you can read Kent Babs' story in the Washington Post, quite good. Then Wright Thompson has another masterpiece on espn. Com about Kaitlyn Clarke. That is, if you want to understand Kaitlyn Clarke and the phenomenon, where she came from, Wright spent an entire year in doing this story. Again, it's worth a read to really understand the athlete who right now, for a moment, and we should celebrate this, and I know- Don't make me out to be the I hate Kaitlyn Clarke guy.

No, I didn't ever I suggested that, but it is a wonderful moment where this reminds me of the '99ers, right? When the women's soccer team captured the imagination of the American public.

And had a domino effect that lasted beyond just the blip of, wow, what a detention graphic. What caused that?

Was that the Brandy, Take My Shirt Off? Was that at the beginning or was that at the end?

That was at the end. That was at the end. No, people tuned in. That game had just short of 30 million viewers. So that is an astonishing number. That is still, I believe, the largest audience for a soccer game, men's or women's in the United States. And by the way, you had the same thing happen with women's soccer that is now happening with women's basketball. Everybody thought the '99ers was going to mean that the Women's Soccer League was an immediate success. It wasn't. They've been struggling with this for about 10 years, but finally, it is starting to take off. The NWSL will see, and I have no personal interest in the NWSL financially or as a broadcaster, but you will see it doing very well this year, I think.

Well, they had to clean up about a thousand forest fires of abuse and major issues within that league. There was nowhere to go but up. It was either going to fold or get better because the road it was on was not good.

I think it did fold, I think, twice. This is the third incarnation. Yes, and of course, the perpetrators in most of those abuse scandals were not women.

I didn't like the Kemp Ab story. I'll go on record saying that because when Kim Mulky had her press conference saying that she hired the greatest defamation firm of all I thought there was going to be this amazing article about stuff that would blow my socks off. I didn't learn anything. It's a big nothing burger.

You learned some things, just not the things that would have-Yeah, I learned normal things.

She drives her kids hard. Tough coach, Bobby Knight style, may have a problem with-You see Heraldo's vault here. That's exactly what I saw. To use another ancient reference. Is that ancient?

It is now. I'm sorry. But because there was a promise of this is a takedown.

By her herself.

By her herself. It wasn't that, which is both, I think, a credit to the reporter and to David, a massive disappointment because the expectation was far higher.

He's looking for a little fight.

I wanted something. I wanted there to be some lawsuit. I wanted her to stand up. I wanted there to be an epiphany of some sort. It turns out she's just a tough-minded, old-school, difficult to deal with, successful coach.

I would put it slightly differently. Yes. But you did You learn why she's that way. You learned about her relationship with her father-in-law who left. You understand why she may have some initial distrust of people she doesn't know because she felt abandoned.

Daddy issues?

Look, I thought he did a good job. I didn't know that. I'm assuming.

I didn't know that, but it's funny.

Whooms among us does not have daddy issues. It doesn't interest me. The idea that David is somehow not impressed by you. We all own our daddy issues, David, please.

No, that's the point.

Exactly.

That's why it's not. I think it's possible that Nelson Pelt was a little father figure for David.

The Jeffrey Lourian, Nelson Peltz, mental image here.

In the house, he felt the paternal spirit.

Felt the ghostly presence.

Felt the paternal spirit of a man willing to take on the mighty Mickey Empire.

Beneath the painting of Saturn eating his child, I believe, would be the-It was probably a hopper. Very good.

I'm You got to hopper and a skipper.

Before we hop and skip and jump out of here, I do want to ask the question, though, about, and Coco helpfully has highlighted this, the idea that all of the ratings are up. I want to just contextualize this because, of course, there is a clear spike historically for this game, and that is real as discussed. But Michael Mulvihill, who's the guy at Fox who does the rating stuff over there, he points out that this has been the most watched college football regular season ever, the most watched college basketball regular season ever, the most I've never watched March Madness ever easily through the Elite 8, men and women combined. Why is this the accounting thing that we've discussed before, David, which I need you to remind people of? What's happening here, dude?

Remember, the way they're doing it, it used to be the old Nielsen box, which no one ever knew what it was. It was actually, sometimes they'd call people, other times they'd have to click, keep a diary of what they were watching. All executives around sports would be dying waiting for the weekly Nielsen ratings that were a bunch of people we could never identify other than their Nielsen families. We felt like there was science to it when we were on top of the leaderboard, and we thought that it was absolute horse hockey when we were not. Now, they're counting it in totally different ways. We covered this, actually, some of the fighting that went on over how to count who's watching. But they're counting people who are now estimating bars out-of-home viewers, which to me is a great thing to count, but very hard to do.

There is a shared interest in the people who measure the audiences with the people they measure them for. The big broadcast networks do not want the numbers to go down, and they have consistently looked for ways to plausibly, not definitively, not exactly, figure out how they could bring bigger numbers to the advertisers who, in fact, want them as well because they want to make 15 and 30 second commercials still, and that's still what this is mostly measuring, because they make a lot of money on that as opposed to a return on investment little digital ad that shows up because you and I spoke about something and our phone heard and sell it to us. They have smartly found ways to grow the audience. I don't believe suddenly There are vast numbers. I don't believe it's exact. As David pointed out, it's always been a sample. You can't expect it.

It's the craziest thing in the world. We always assume that it's real.

And sampling.

We keep saying that 12.3 million people watched Pablo with Ted Lasso Monday night. We don't know that it was 12.3 million. I just want to make sure that our audience understands that. That's not the actual number of people who watch the game.

It is the number by which companies pay, marketing agencies who pay the broadcast networks, all who have a shared interest in figuring out ways that they can plausibly claim a bigger audience, but it's still a sample. It is, however, somewhat consistent. By which I mean something that did 10, something that did 12, 3, something that did 15. The ordering is probably right. The proportion is probably right, but they're probably all counting people who walked into a bar, ordered a beer, and walked out. That counted as a viewer.

I don't know how you'd count that person. You mentioned a train of people who benefit from ratings. It's an interesting thing to think about because what you're talking about with marketing and marketing budgets buying ads, and then you glossed over the ad that comes to you digitally. I spend more money, as I sit here today, with ads that are pushed to me.What.

Have you bought, David?Podcasts. What have you bought?

Toiletry kits, Blankets, luggage, chargers, you name it.

Sounds like you're going somewhere. I'm going to send you some travel ads.

But it's target ads, and it's what every company wants. They want targeted ads.

They do. There is a problem because while there's that shared interest there, in the new world, you've got a couple of problems. One is the tech companies can measure exactly. They can.

Which is scary for everyone.

On the other hand, they do not make it possible for any third party to accurately audit that or count that. Now, you still have a funny problem. The companies and the marketers are dependent upon them to tell the truth. Of course, we, of course, would believe that, too, and understand that they would exactly tell you exactly how many. That's why you hear these weird metrics. Oh, 300 million minutes is how much such and such has been consumed. I'm like, Well, what good does that do me? Why do I need to know? Yeah, it's not apples to apples. They will not lie, but they will use the data in the way most favorable to them. In the magazine business, they used to count cards. They'd show you a card. Have you read Rolling Stone magazine before? You'd say, Yes. They'd go, Oh, reader. Then they would do a big survey that said, Rolling Stone magazine has a million people who buy the magazine, but eight pass-along readers. Their total audience is eight million. The advertiser would pay for eight million. Did eight million people read that magazine?

Very unlikely. I would assume then Playboy would be the number one because it was in every barbershop, and it was passed along to everybody always.

Well, Playboy, actually, in those days, they measured it by counting the number of fingerprints on the-That's what they did.

Thank you. I want to go full circle.

I don't want to know anything else about David Samson's barbershops.

To what we started with little Matt Ispia. One of the parts of that story was the Super Bowl ad. I was just thinking about how a company would defend spending five and a half million dollars on an ad, on any ad. We watched the Super Bowl, and now the ads have QR codes, and there's all There's a ton of things going on with Super Bowl ads. And Ishmael's ad, specifically, was about brokers and about the very thing that's on Poupletory finds out. And how do you measure? How does a company who buys a Super Bowl ad measure? Are they doing it for branding or for sales sales. What happens is you tell your CEO it's branding because you can't back it up with meaningful direct sales from it.

It's overwhelmingly branding. Now, that UWM ad did have a a mechanism where you could respond. They may have some ability to measure effectiveness.Go.

To this website. All this is explained in the episode.They.

Have that. But almost none of the advertising on the Super Bowl. All the advertising on Super Bowl is brand halo, uncountable benefit. They can tell you which ads people like. They can't tell you how many Buicks they went down and bought because they saw an ad.

But this is fascinating, and it's an enormous topic. We don't have time for all of it, but it's the idea of advertising as a premise of what is the return on this investment? In the Super Bowl, it's easy because you say we're in the club of people with a Super Bowl commercial. But in reality, how many products did you move has always been...

It's always been the issue. There's a very famous ad guy, and I can't remember which one it was, who said, I know that 50% of my money is wasted. I just can't figure out which 50%. That's because of the uncertainty of the measurement. That was also because if his target was men, $25 to 54, he gets some data that suggests that this he was reaching, 36% of the people he was reaching was those. Now they do have exact data.

That's the promise of the tech that David has been.

But we're a victim of that. The victim is this, that as part of Metalarc,Metalark, we all do reads. I don't know if Pablo Tori is forced to do it in his show because his show-I gladly do. Do you? We have codes, Lebitard 50 or Samson 25 for some advertisers who advertise with Metalark. I always think about the number of people who actually put in that code is always going to be fewer than the number of people who would have some brand awareness that, Oh, they're a sponsor of Metalark shows. But the way it's measured now is by who actually puts that code in that we all read.

You go to Jake Cree, buy a pair of pants. Did anybody help you with this? You can name Ted in the back or... No, I don't remember. No.

It's a major thing if you name Ted.

Of course, because that is how you get credit for sending business in one direction.

Whenever I get asked on the way out, if somebody's helped me, I put David Samson.

Why?

It's a random retail source.

It's funny.

I do the exact opposite. I say, I don't know David Samson. No connection.

Best friends? Really?

Bare friends. I think of people all throughout New York City going, he said David Samson helped him. That guy who does nothing personal?

You knew the name of the show. Yeah.

That's a process. All the people in retail outlets in New York. That's right.

All the people who sell David Samson as toiletries are raving about nothing personal. I want to get, though, to another set of friends. This is Alex Rodriguez. This is Mark Lory. This was the team, the duo that was supposed to buy the Minnesota Timberwolves. You got 10 minutes to do this, so we'll be a little expedient, but there's a lot here. So much. It's about a majority owner in Glenn Taylor who finally was supposed to exit Stage Left. And yet here remains the majority owner because what happened, David, with this story?

He's an octogenarian with no heirs. Just so we can be clear that he could sell it into a foundation. He doesn't really want to die with it. It just becomes complicated. So it makes perfect sense.Not.

To him, of course.Well, he'll be dead.At that point.

You're one of those guys? Yeah, pretty simple for him. You're one of those Pretty simple.I'm not worried about that. You worry about it. I'll be dead. I hate those guys.

There's no greater distinction between the two worldviews of these two rich guys than that one.

I'll be dead? I worry more about.

John's out of here. David is hunting the universe.

I'm just beginning to That's when it gets serious.

Anyway, so Glenn Taylor is going to sell his team, and he sold it for one and a half billion dollars in 2021 to Alex Rodriguez, who's always wanted to own a team.

Except Alex Rodriguez didn't pay the one and a half billion back in '21. He was going to pay it in installments. Then he missed some installment payments. Glenn Taylor was very forgiving over the course of the last few years, no problem. That deadline got extended because in a contract, there's deadlines. You have to pay by this time. You've dealt with contracts in your life. If you don't follow the letter of the contract, there are some people you do business with who say, Don't worry about it. We're good. Some people will say, Hey, you're in violation. I'm canceling the contract. The people who say you're in violation, I'm canceling the contract, are people who don't want to do business with you anymore. Glenn Taylor doesn't want to do business with A-Rot anymore because Glenn Taylor's is now worth two and a half billion, not the one and a half billion that he sold at 421.

Just in that span of time, Ishaana.

Just in that span of time.

What exactly is an octogenarian with no airs going to do with the extra billion?

It's a great question. Charity, I hope, and I assume. But listen, he may live to be like Will, live to be over 100.

Well, and he'd clearly need that extra bill to keep up the lifestyle.

The cryogenic chamber gets expensive.

John Skipper's view of owning a team is that he would send it out when he was ready to sell. He'd get bids and sell to the lowest bidder. That's what you somehow, and you'd say, This is the right thing to do.

You could maybe set the test for how you and I are different in that if I were 83, I would not care about an extra billion if I had one already. It wouldn't matter to me.

The only people who say that are people who don't have one. Well, that's true.I like that you say it.That's true.

That was just a true rap battle bar by David Samson. That's like in a fencing match. That's just like, I got hit right here. I'm done. I'm done.

I don't mean to say it in that way because listen, half a metal arc, you're getting close.

The Reposte was robust.

What's funny about the-rich guy Only fans.

This is what I mean.

What's funny about the fight What's going on is that A-Rod is trying to say, for the benefit of the fans, Glenn, sell the team because we're really good at owning the team. Look at how good the Timberwolves are this year. They're fighting for the number one seating the Western Conference. But then A-Rod is going on every show, but not on the Metalark, strangely enough, but every show. He did the South Beach Sessions with Dan.We're.

Friendly with Mr.

Rodriguez.okay.

So Dan- Dan presented him with a Painting of a Centaur.

Then I'd like him to come on and discuss. He said, We're going to fight whatever takes five years, 10 years, 20 years, we will never stop fighting Glenn Taylor because he went back on his word.

We will meet them on the mountaintops. We will cross the river. There is a speech like that somewhere.It's.

Not New Rock.Is.

It Churchill?

David Zamsen, either inside of a tank or on top of a horse. Yeah, one of those scenarios.

I like the idea of being on top of a horse, but I can only say whatever. Here's how this ends and why it's interesting to me. Because Adam Silver, I think of everything from the from a customer's standpoint. Adam Silver does not want the Timberwolves to be sold to A-Rod at a $1.5 billion valuation.

Because it's low.

It is far better for him for the Timberwolves to be sold for more. So he is not doing anything. To take a position that would favor Alex Rodriguez. He's taking the position of, Hey, it didn't close. It didn't close. The Timberwolves are now not for sale. Maybe they'll be for sale again. But what he knows is when they are for sale again, and even if A-Rod is a buyer again, it won't be at the 1-5 number. No. And that matters.

Particularly since they have one of the best up-and-coming young players, have two great young players, so their prospects for the next few years look very good. That's more like a two-and-a-half to $3 billion dollar evaluation, wouldn't you think?

That's what I do think. I'm still young enough, just to be clear, that a billion dollars would still make a difference in my life. Listen, we're working on behalf of Metalark. Us and our 25 basis points are really working hard for you.

First billion dollar bid we get will be the last.

We've established on this show previously that we will also sell all of our principles for a trillion dollars. There's an escalating series of what we-I'm way lower than that.

Don't hesitate to call if it's like half a trillion, just to check.

I think that John is making fun of how metal art gets valued, and I take it far more seriously as I know he does, that we're all doing these shows and doing what we do because we think that this is a billion-dollar company.

I am pretty sure the valuation went up somewhere in the neighborhood of a sawbuck.

How are people going to respect us when you don't respect us?

Well, because possibly some of them don't know what a sawbuck is because I think it's a bit of a-It can't be good. I think it's a bit of an old-school term. Yeah.

Oh, God.

After you finish recording, John gets very upset, and he'll He texted me on the side, things like, We're not rich guy, only fans.

I've never texted that.

He doesn't want to be associated like that. You got to stop doing that. You keep ruining my weekends, Pablo. Stop on this.

I feel like people have really enjoyed the very broad appeal references to art that we've made all show today.Hopper.And Skipper.

Yeah, Hopper and Skipper.

On this A-Rod story, just to put a pin in that one.

It's going to continue, but the fight is going to-So these guys, but I want to say This is the fight.

They're not allowed in the building. I want to get the- So Glenn Taylor came out and said that all the things that I was letting you do, A-Rod, because you were going to be the controlling owner, like getting into the clubhouse and going in the back areas, you do not have to let your limited partners do that. We can't communicate with team execs anymore.

We did not let our limited partners communicate with anybody. They couldn't call the GM. The GM doesn't want to take a call from a limited partner, and that's what A-Rod is. Limited partners can't walk to the clubhouse or walk behind the to the kitchen area.

What percentage of the club does he own, A-Rod?

He and Mark Lauri have 40%.

I would think you'd let the guys who own 40% come home back into the dining room. It's okay.

That's why it feels like a fight.

But again, they're in a fight.

So it That's why it's fine. They're in a fight, and it's very limiting to be a limited partner, as you know. It's like being a limited shareholder in Disney. If you own 100,000 shares, you feel rich, but you have no power. Nelson Pelt, you get into the billions of dollars, and all of a sudden, you can do a proxy fight.

As opposed to being a limited shareholder of Metalark, which you get benefits like hanging out with David Samson as he regales you with tales of his childhood.

On a horse.

On a horse.

See you later.Thank you, Pablo.Thank.

You, Pablo.Thank.

You both. Sorry for ruining your weekends.

Hey, friends, it's Mike Ryan, and a lot has changed over the years. But one thing that hasn't, great and dependable taste, a Miller Light. It was the original light beer, and to this day, it is still the best one. Miller Light has more the taste that you and less of the stuff that you don't. I was at a baseball game, and thank goodness, they had Miller Light on tap. Hmm, taste buds. Electrified. Miller Light, you were always the right call. And that's why I love you so much. Then I turned to my friend, And I had a great conversation. Oh, Miller Lite, you grease the rails for a good conversation better than anybody. Dog on it, Miller Light. You keep everything simple with undebatable quality. Great taste, only 96 calories. It's the beer that strips away everything that you don't need and holds on to what matters most. Times change, but you can always enjoy the great taste of Miller Light. Tastes like Miller time. To get Miller Light delivered right to your door, visit millerlight. Com/dan, or you can pretty much find it anywhere that sells beer. Celebrate responsibly. Miller Brewing Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 96 calories per 12 ounces.