Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, broadcasting from the car rental studios, it's the Dave Ramsey Show where that is dumb. Cash is king and a paid off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the status symbol of choice. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Rachel Crooge, Ramsey personality and number one bestselling author. Also, my daughter is my co-host. Today here on the air, open phones, a triple eight eight two five five two two five.

That's triple eight eight two five five two two five. You jump in, we'll talk about your life and your money. Nathan is in Pittsburgh. Hi, Nathan. Welcome to The Dave Ramsey Show. Hey, David, Rachel, thanks for having me. Sure. What's up? So. I started listening to your show after I graduated college. My manager told me to look you guys up and start listening to some of the content. Fortunately, I was able to work at parts stores through college.

I graduated with no student loans. I'm right now I'm on baby steps six. I'm single. I don't have kids, so I'm not worried about baby step five. I currently have 12 months in the emergency fund. I lost both my parents, so I don't really have a fallback plan if something major goes wrong. My question is, once I get the house paid off, which I lost, sixty four thousand left to pay off. Wow. When do you start, I guess, enjoying life and how much do you look towards retirement and saving that way?

Because I feel like right now all I'm doing is OK. Are you putting the 15 percent away for your baby? Step for. Yes, I have 15 down to my Rosarno. OK, and what do you make a year? Right now, I make about 70 a year, OK? And you're how old again? OK, wow, you have done a wonderful job, Nathan. Congratulations, you should you should already be enjoying life. When your baby steps four or five baby steps, four or five, six, you let your foot off the gas, you're not so intense and you begin to budget some enjoyment items in there while you continue to be intentional about some of your other financial goals.

But there's no reason at all that you shouldn't, you know, upgrade a car with cash or go on a trip if you can find a place that's open and that kind of stuff.

And, you know, I you know, I think I think you need to give yourself permission.

I don't know why. Why have you stayed so intense, do you think?

Well, growing up, my family never really had money, so I just that mentality I saved since I can remember.

So did they talk about money or was there stress or what was the deal? There was a lot of stress about parents, they never really had money. It was kind of just like a work all the time, but like a sort of like a sore subject at your house.

Yeah. So they always taught me to save from a young age. And I guess that's kind of just stuck with me, even though they didn't.

Yeah, well, they tried, but they got to know that in a failed business. Yeah, because I feel like a lot of your caution, Nathan, is not ending up back like how you were right or how your parents were. You want to do something different and that fear of going backwards, is it scary to you? I would say, but I think that you've put yourself in a great position. And I think you'll find I mean, you have 12 months of an emergency fund set aside, which is double what we recommend.

But I can just tell out of the safety and the cautiousness in your voice that that feels good. And then you're going have to realize, though, that no amount of money ultimately is going to bring you that security. Like there's things to be wise about. We talk about it on here all the time that, you know, you need your emergency fund. You need to be saving for the future retirement, all of it. But but once you start down the path, that money is ultimately going to be my security.

I mean, we meet people that are worth multimillion, you know, dollars and they still can be frugal because they're so freaked out of going back to where they were. And I don't we don't want you to live like that at all. So I think you've been wise. I think you've done everything through the baby steps. And Nathan, I think you're going to be great. I think you'd be fine. I think that there's a little bit of breathing room you need in your life and in your spirit and your emotions to enjoy some of this money and practice spending.

I think for some people it is hard to spend, but I would say put amount of money in the budget to say I have to spend this because you're going to. Yeah, that that practice is good.

That's a really good idea. And also add generosity to your budget. Yeah.

If you will learn to spend on purpose and it doesn't have to be a lot, but just go.

This amount of money is just for pure enjoyment. This amount of money is for pure generosity. I'm going to give this away to somebody, to something that's hurting somebody out there. Plenty of hurting folks out there right now. Then those two things will loosen you up a little bit and move you away from, you know, the fear that comes out of your you know, your your family background. And everybody's got a family background to that. It affects their spending.

You talk about that in the new book. Know yourself, know your money. Yeah. And so which of the four types of households will see from them?

Yeah, he sounds like the anxious money classroom. A lot of stress, but not a lot of verbal communication around it. Yeah. And that's and it's a real thing.

I mean like literally how you grow up. A kid can feel the stress in the air.

Yep. And if you guys are not talking about it but the stress is there, then that's the anxious money classroom.

And if you grew up in that, then you're going to have a tendency to do this.

A lot of our money behaviors come from they don't have to, but they can come. Yes. From how you were brought up and the type of household you grew up in, was it a secure environment? Was it an anxious environment? Was a verbal or was it closed down verbally? But the stress was in the air, which is what you're smelling there on that one? Yeah. Yeah. And you cover that and know yourself.

Know your money, right? Yeah. Digging in and understanding. And I like that he even pinpointed back to. Yeah, this is this is where my fear comes from because that is one of the financial fears is I don't want to end up like my parents and I'm going to do everything in my in my control to go back.

And they passed away. So I didn't have a safety net at 25. That's right. That's right. I can run back to. So you've got that extra emergency fund. So security's all over this discussion. Absolutely. It's all over it.

So very, very self-aware. Nathan, you've done a great job with money, but you've also done a great job of identifying that it is now time to enjoy some of it, not go hog wild.

We're not going crazy. We're not going all the way back over to the other side of the spectrum. But but this is the right thing to do. Hang on. I'm going to have Keli pick up and we'll get you signed up for a copy of Rachel's brand new book. No Yourself. No, your money comes out in January, so don't expect it before then. But we're going to give you a copy because you need to read through it, because it's exactly the antidote for what you're facing is to know yourself.

And, you know, you talk about scarcity versus abundance. You talk about nerd versus free spirit. You talk about saver versus spender. You talk about the fears of people faced with money. All of those things affect the money. How you guys how every one of us handle money. Yeah, it's a powerful thing when you have the self-awareness of understanding the why why am I doing these things? Why are my habits the way they are? You can change them and implement good habits.

Here you go.

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Sign up today at Splash Financial Dotcom Slash Ramsey. Rachel Cruze Ramsey, personality number one bestselling author, is my co-host today. You're on the air. This is The Dave Ramsey Show. On the line is one of our best host of friends, a lady we love dearly, Miss Lisa Parkhurst. Hi, Lisa. How are you? Hi, Dave. Great. Thank you so much. Absolutely.

So glad to have you. Lisa is the president of Proverbs 31 Ministries and author of three New York Times best selling books, including It's Not Supposed To Be This Way.

Her new book is Forgiving What You Can't Forget. Lisa and I and Rachael have shared the stage many times and lots of different conferences over the years. This lady is brilliant. She is a wonderful teacher, wonderful speaker, and obviously a world class writer as well. So welcome. It's so good to have you.

How's your year, Ben? Thank you. Well, like everyone else, unexpected, I think that I think that's the best way to say to any unexpected. That's a nice way of saying it.

We around here, we call it the dumpster fire year, the year of the dumpster fire. So the whole stink of the mess, it's just my counselor and.

I agree. My counselor and I were talking yesterday and he said 20, 20 has kind of been like draining the lake and everybody's forced to see what's really their way. Business has has always been able to cover up 20, 20 has ripped away business. And now we're really, really forced to see what we're facing, expose what is true.

Yeah. One of the greatest covers on a book I think I ever saw was your last book. It's not supposed to be this way because it confuses everybody by being upside down. Of course, it's not supposed to be this way. Life is upside down. And you talk about in that book something that you and I have talked about offline, but never on the air. And you've told the story many times publicly, but just not here on the air about your husbands.

You divulge your husband's betrayal, and then you had to work through the whole idea of forgiveness and forgetting something that hurtful. How do you do that?

Well, you know, I think it's impossible to forget. And so that's why I think a lot of people have this notion that the Bible says forgive and forget that actually that's not a biblical principle. You can very much learn to forgive even before the memories, you know, even while the memories are still painful. And Dave, I think the biggest lesson that I learned is when talking about forgiveness, you cannot start with just the command to forgive. I think we have to start with people's pain.

And what help me the most is the day that my counselor asked me if I wanted to heal from this. And I said yes. And he said, well, then today's a great day to forgive. And I just thought, you're crazy. Maybe even high, because how in the world would today be a good day to start working on forgiveness when I'm not done hurting yet? And the other person has said they're sorry, they haven't acknowledged what I've been through.

And he said, OK, then I'll acknowledge it. And so he handed me this stack three by five cards and just told me, write down all that's caused you so much pain in this situation. I had about 40 cards, three by five cards written down in all my pain. And then he looked at me and he said the best thing someone could say. He said, I believe you. And what happened to you shouldn't have happened, Lisa.

And I guess, Dave, I want to say that to somebody today on the air. If you've been deeply wounded and you've never had that moment where they said that they're sorry, I want to say to you, I'll bear witness to your pain. I'm so sorry for what happened. But, friend, you deserve to stop suffering because of what other people have done to you. And forgiveness really is the only way to sever that source of suffering.

So good. Lisa, you're you're one of my favorite people, because even the way you verbalize really hard situations, it it makes it feel doable, like the hope even and how you how you vocalize it. I'm like, yes, because you even talk about how forgiveness is even more satisfying than revenge. And I think we live in a world where revenge feels so good for people to get what we feel like they deserve. But you say forgiveness actually is more satisfying.

Well, it is because forgiveness is the only step towards something good and venomous, even though it feels like we hold on to bitterness and resentment, that it kind of protects us to be ever had that feeling like if I'm resentful toward that person, that I can hold them at arm's length and they'll learn their lesson eventually. But what I've started to realize is that that bitterness and those resentments, they they were turning me into someone I didn't want to be and forget.

And really, bitterness doesn't just want to be a feeling. It wants to be a whole feeling and wants to take over every part of you and then leak out from you. And I just think it's time to trade all that unnecessary drama for an upgrade. And I truly I don't say this lightly because I know that when you say the word forgiveness, people attach it to the deepest hurt imaginable. But when somebody dares to forgive in this world where fists slam fists and people talk so harshly toward other people, everybody has opinions that are just so dogmatic.

When someone dares to display the humble but full of powerful strength act of forgiveness, it stops all and people notice. And it is rare and it's beautiful.

So I think one the tone for me, some of the reasons that folks struggle with the idea is thrown around Christianity all the time. The whole concept of forgiveness is they struggle with forgiveness, being the same thing as reconciliation.

You can forgive someone and still not to decide and still decide not to have them in your life.

Right. That's right, forgiveness and reconciliation don't always come as a package deal, God says that forgiveness is a command, but reconciliation is very dependent. And honestly, Dave, I didn't understand that forever. And that was one of the big hindrances that was really holding me back from forgiving. But when I finally understood that I can forgive and I can put up boundaries too emotionally and physically protect myself and forgiveness became a lot more doable. And we have to remember, boundaries aren't to shove another person away there to help hold me together.

And honestly, I think that's why Jesus was able to say to us, forgive 70 times seven. Jesus didn't mean for us to be abused over and over and over. I believe that Jesus taught create enough emotional space between you and them so that there's safety there, that from afar you can forgive somebody 70 times seven because they're not going to pummel you with devastation and put you in an unhealthy place.

That's a great point, because I feel like it gives you an a sense of if I'm wrong here, Lisa, but it gives you a level of health and control over the situation so that you can forgive. Right. Because if you if you let an abusive type person or relationship in your life constantly and there is no boundary, then, yeah, you are being run over all day, every day, all the time. And you almost don't even have the strength to forgive at that point.

But when you have a healthy boundary up to say, hey, here's where this is going to stop, I'm able then to forgive you.

That's right. And that was really important in my story as well. I mean, I think what people don't realize is my husband and I, we were separated for two and a half years. And though that was really, really hard, it was necessary because of all the dynamics that we were dealing with. I felt like I was becoming more and more unhealthy because I kept trying to rescue the situation. I kept like he would crawl up on the train tracks.

I would see the train coming and I would I would crawl up trying to drag him off. And one day I realized the train is still barreling toward us. And if I keep crawling up on these tracks and trying to drag him up, eventually the train is going to run over us both. And I have to do the hardest thing I've ever done, and that is release him to his choices. And honestly, if I run the interview today, he would say that was the very thing that finally woke him up.

And that's the day his life started to turn around, is when I let go powerful.

The book is forgiving what you can't. It'll be another no.

Forgiving what you can't forget. I left off a word. I'm sorry. Thanks, Rachel. And Lisa Hurst is our guest. Lisa, thank you for stopping by.

Thank you so much, Dave. Rachel, I love both of you.

You too, darling. Thank the world of you. You are an incredible, incredible intellect, incredible speaker, communicator, thought leader. We're just honored to call your friend Proverbs 31 ministries. Check it out. Check out forgiving what you can't forget.

Lisa Perkiest, you will not regret getting anything she's written, but certainly this new one.

This is the Dave Ramsey Show. Rescue Crews Ramsey personality is my co-host this hour, open phones at eight eight two five five two to five. If you haven't heard, we're giving away cash all season long for Christmas. We have our second Ramsey Christmas giveaway winner. Congratulations to Lindsay from Mississippi.

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Our question yet today's question comes from Martin in California. He said, I started the debt free journey before I got married. My then fiancee knew I was on this journey, but never gave me her true thoughts about it. We've been married for months now and I still can't get her on board with paying off debts, with budgeting and being a teammate on this journey. I signed up for FPU, but she refuses to watch the lessons with me. She also does not accept the unity of marriage.

She still continues on about what's hers is hers and what's mine is mine. I feel like I can't win with money as long as I'm with her. Would you recommend marriage counseling or is there another way to get her on board with our debt free journey? Oh, man. Martin, you're getting this early on a marriage.

Yeah, this is a hard one. I mean, my my first question, I would have so many questions for her of asking her not in a, you know, major conflict type way, but ask her, hey, why ask her the why? Why does she not want to do this? What about this makes her uncomfortable. What about this? Does she not like I mean, going in and asking more of the of the questions of understanding what really is preventing her from being on the same team?

And if you guys get to a point that you cannot get on the same team after you both have had multiple conversations and again, you're kind of digging into more under the surface, then. Yeah, I mean, I think bringing in a third party is always smart to try it, FPU, but if she refuses to watch us, she refuses to watch it. But yeah, I mean marriage counseling, I would start having those red lights are going to start flashing though Martin, because money fights the money problems.

They are one of the leading causes of divorce. And the fact that she is not on the same page with you worries me a lot. And so I would kind of get down on and figure out what what is she fearful of? Why is she choosing not to do this and then for the betterment of your marriage? Yeah, I definitely would recommend marriage counseling. You need marriage counseling for sure. No question about it. You needed pre marriage counseling and you should have discovered all of this ahead of time.

Any of you out there listening, this is what you want to avoid the data on marriage.

There's lots of data. Everybody talks about. Fifty percent of marriages end in divorce. No, they really don't.

That includes people who get married, is six years old after becoming pregnant in high school. OK, well, yeah, you that you're going to have struggle with that one. Statistically, that's a marriage. It's not got a shot. Now, some people make it, thank goodness. But that one's a real tough one. OK, and, you know, listen, if you make if your household income is over seventy thousand dollars a year, you have four year education.

Your parents are married. You dated for six months or more. Prior to getting married.

You and less than five years, by the way, you have a religious affiliation, you are in agreement on your religious affiliation and you have won your percentage chance of divorce is very, very low.

It drops down under 10 percent then. But so, you know, but the problem is you guys obviously did not get into, in this particular case, enough pre marriage counseling, you didn't know each other because she has something that's driving this.

I don't know whether it's fear or anger, but she's obstinate. And man, that is an uncomfortable life you have in your future living with an obstinate spouse. And so, yeah, you need marriage counseling, but this is the reason young people that you date for a little while, you have a very intentional, old fashioned word courting process where you are discovering everything about the other person.

You're doing premarital counseling prior to getting married because it increases your probability of a successful marriage and it decreases the pain that young Martin is getting ready to go through.

Yeah, and some of the things that, you know, you just listed are not in your control as a person you can't control. If your parents have stayed married and you can't control certain things you can't control, though, is to see the data point of marriage. And there's like the four main reasons why people get divorced and are four main causes of fights. And it's what is it? It's it's money. It's sex. It's in laws and raising kids.

And that's like the big points of tension. So if those are the four big red flags, it's actually religion, not sex. But yeah. Oh, really. Yeah. Being it doesn't matter.

So you put five in there on the lists but different things and something like. But sometimes the money thing is like number five, it doesn't make up for on. So I mean like there's a range though of things that have conflict to the marriage. So if those are red flags and all of that, raise them up and just say, hey, we need I mean all of you dating and engaged, dig into these areas before you get married for sure.

But, Martin. Yeah, I mean, I would for sure you need because again, this isn't just a money problem. This is a fact that she doesn't want to play on the same team. And that worries me more than just that she won't budge or get out of debt with you. There's something even more so. Marriage counseling for sure. Get a good one and stick with it.

You know, I mean, having disagreements is one thing. In a young marriage like that, being abstinent is another and belligerent. And the verbiage that you're using is indicating that's where she is. So that's pretty scary stuff. Ali is with us in Canada. Hi, Ali. How are you?

I'm great, thanks. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? Thanks for taking my call, so I am self-employed. I own for small businesses and just with a lot of the circumstances of what's been going on with covid and certain industries being required to close. My question is kind of related to my businesses and my career. So my four businesses are in the health and fitness industry. So I own two small gyms. Yeah. Yes.

I would have never said that before, but now I do go to gyms and a martial arts school and then I have one online fitness and nutrition coaching company and I run them with my family, my parents and my husband. And we were doing really, really well. We've been running them for the past 10 years. We started my first one when I was twenty one and kind of built on them for the past 10 years. And then we got closed in March so we couldn't run our gyms and we couldn't run our martial arts studio.

So my husband, I ran baby step two. We paid off I think thirty thousand dollars between November and March and then we had to pause just because we weren't drawing income anymore. Sure. And so now that we've been reopened for a couple of months, there are kind of some risks of being closed down again. And so since since our first closure, him and I have both gotten hired by a American online fitness and nutrition company just because we realized the importance of diversifying our income a little bit.

I mean, just kind of being here, being where we're at. But I guess my question is. How do how do we navigate, whether we double down and try and pivot our businesses that we've been out for a decade, or at what point do we look at these these careers that we've chosen that formerly I kind of you know, I kind of thought, you know, we're really secure. Like, nobody could tell me how hard I could or couldn't work.

I'll tell you what. Hold on for a second. We come back from this break. We'll try to help you with this because it's a question that deserves more than 10 seconds. Answer to. Anyway, this is The Dave Ramsey Show. Ali is in Canada. She has a fitness center and a martial arts center that they've had and invested their careers in for a decade plus, and they finally got reopened after covid. And now there's noise that they may be closed down again, just trying to figure out how to navigate this ridiculous world that we live in and to keep her business alive and our hearts breaking a little bit because her whole career has been poured into this.

Is that a fair summary of what you told me so far?

Yeah, super fair. Yeah. Well, you know, I share your frustration.

I've gone past the point, I have made a commitment to God to be kind to people who I don't agree with on these issues, and it's been very hard because some of these people are absolutely misbehaving the way they're treating each other.

The number of times I've been screeched at for not wearing a mask by some idiot in a store, the the number of times that I go into a business and the business abuses me as a customer, I'm tired of it.

I'm really getting weary. The number of times that the government of Canada or the government of the United States or the state of Tennessee or the city of Nashville is denying our freedom to operate. When the data is now in on this thing, it has gotten out of hand. So I share your frustration. I'm getting angry enough. I'm getting ready to start a freaking crusade against these people.

But but the but it's gotten out of hand.

You know, there are they got the amount of totalitarianism where the governments are just walking in and wholesale, shutting down our freaking lives and taking them from us has gotten out of hand.

And it feels like, yeah, so I'm with you, but I don't know how to help you because they're going to do it, it looks like.

And so you and I are faced with when they do that stuff with trying to abide by their.

Ridiculous decisions, and they are ridiculous based on the data that's in or go to jail, you know, and of course, half our customers are cuckoo for cocoa nuts.

And so in the other half are mad at the other half. And so it's just it's weird. It's just a weird thing to navigate.

So I think the problem we're facing is the same thing we face when there was violence in some of the major cities and the major cities were shut down in America over the racial issues that in an unpredictable environment, business cannot exist.

When we cannot predict order. And the only thing we can predict is chaos, then business can't function and it shuts down the economics of the situation and affects more lives than than the violence affects or then covid affects a lot more lives in a lot more negative ways.

So I think that you just you know, what we're doing is we're just having to navigate and we're staying right on the bleeding, cutting edge of what is allowed and pushing the boundaries on what is allowed.

And if I'm in your shoes, that's what I'm doing. But the problem is you still are not going to be able to if they come in and just say all gyms are shut down, then you're just straight up going to jail if you open up again. So you've got to turn around then and.

Try to find online ways to deliver, you know, Zoome workouts or some kind of a digital curriculum, delivery of some kind where you still use your passion for people's fitness and you still use your your knowledge base, but you're just delivering it in a different way.

And we'll just pray God that that it's a temporary thing that you have to do that that for the rest of our lives, these governments are not going well. We know they're not going to medal at this level because there's a bunch there's going to be a freaking revolution.

If they continue to do this because people have had it, it's not going to go on a lot longer.

I mean, most people are not sheep and they're just not going to do it a lot longer.

So I don't know what the what the boiling point will be on this, but I don't predict a decade of it. I can tell you that. That we don't have workout facilities and we don't have gyms and we don't have martial arts for a decade. I don't think so.

Yeah, and I think it's part two, Ali, that you and you guys have already done that. You've shifted, you said, to work for an online company. But I'm like, where are the things that you have to get creative? Right. I mean, like even our part of our business was just turned upside down with live events. And so now we're having to get creative what that looks like of how to do events like like it's just it takes a different part of your brain.

My kids were part of this like little sports class thing that's in our area and it's so sweet and great.

But they had to shut down due to covid, but then they ended up starting this whole new department of it where they reiterate that they had to shut down because of government regulations, not because of code.

I'm sorry. OK, well, because the health departments are over the top, lost their dadgum minds.

That's why it's the Dave Ramsey show you. Yes, correct me. But but what I'm saying is that that day and then all the k all of our schools got shut down the spring, but then they created a whole, like, recess department where the coaches would come to neighborhoods where these pods were of homeschooled kids now and like have recess and they would they would charge for the session. So, like, just the creative ways that companies who have been shut down through government regulations because of covid-19 that, yeah, you're just getting you have to get creative and like it's the only way to make money or completely having to ditch the industry and just get a job that's there, which sucks.

Like, I don't want to do that, Ali, but the way we've gone at it is in our businesses.

We've had entire segments of the business that just disappeared. Live events is 98 percent gone, OK? And we used to do 60 or 80 of these things a year. And so I've got an entire department of people that don't have a job. I've had to redeploy them inside the business otherwise so that I didn't have to fire them because of it. And so we lost that. So what can we do? What we can do, live streams of events and put them out there?

They don't make any revenue to amount to anything, but we're doing them. I mean, we're making a little bit of money, but more than anything, we're just helping people, which we figured out a long time ago, if we can do that.

So, you know, we're pivoting on that, but we're not pivoting on that with the idea that of events will never come back. We're pivoting on that with the idea that for now I have to tolerate this crap and my customers won't come, and I got venues that are, you know, the health department and, you know, 62 policemen with tactical gear will come in and bust us because we're all within six feet of each other or some kind of crap like that.

And so, you know, it's just ridiculous. And so I've got to tolerate this for a while and do something different for a while. And that's what you've got to do. So what you do need to ascertain is if you really start to believe and this is Henry Clouts book necessary endings.

Anytime you're in a career, you're in a business, you're in a situation where you start to believe that the that you have lost hope that it will ever return.

And this isn't being hysterical or emotional, it's, you know, with critical thinking skills, you're looking at the landscape. I don't think this is ever going to go back.

Let me let me give an example that, OK, Blockbuster should have pivoted permanently because they should have lost hope that people weren't going to rent VHS tapes from them.

They didn't, and so they went broke because they didn't pivot and Netflix pivoted. Well, Netflix went from mailing DVDs to know and online, but it was still essentially the same business.

Yeah, but one didn't lose hope and one did. And so they changed permanently who they are.

And now Netflix is a major operation because of that and blockbusters as a memory. So you've got to look at that and say permanently, what have I got? The change that the landscape has permanently changed.

How much of this covid landscape do you believe is permanent? And, you know, I you know, I don't believe it's permanent because I think it's, you know, that it's not, you know, 20 percent the population did not die. Two million people did not die, you know, one thing we do know is that you don't have to learn much about math to get a medical degree.

We have figured that out, that math people, medical people don't do math well, that's a permanent thing that I now know that I didn't know before this.

And so, you know, we do have a lot of data on this to look at it and to use some dadgum common sense that aggravates me because the problem is of lives all over America are like hers being turned upside down on this.

And it's it's it's got to stop. This hysteria has got to stop. This is The Dave Ramsey Show.

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