Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, broadcasting from the car rental studios. It's the Dave Ramsey Show where that is dumb cash is king and a paid off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as a status symbol of choice. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. You jump on and we'll talk about your life and your money. Ram Ramsey personality. Kris Hogan is my co-host today here on the air, number one, best selling author of the book Everyday Millionaires and another one called Retire Inspired Both No one's.

We're here to help you with your life and your money.

Triple eight eight two five five two two five. You jump in and we will talk.

Joe starts us off in Boston. Hi, Joe. Joe, how are you? Good. Hi, Dave. Hi, Chris. How are you? Better than we deserve, man. What's up?

Hey, thanks for taking the call. I'm actually in the process of getting ready for retirement age 60. My wife's fifty nine and we're in the last five years. And we're we're actually in the process of downsizing homes and we're going to split homes between Florida, where we just purchased a home for cash and downsizing our home in Massachusetts and buying a smaller retirement home that we're going to snowbird between the two houses. And the way we're doing this is we're actually having a house built in a retirement community up here that's going to close in March.

And our current house that we're in probably will not be closing until June. And so we've got this little bit of a gap period where the equity in the house that we're currently in will not be available to be put towards the new house. So when we finish this, we won't have any mortgages whatsoever. And I'm trying to figure out whether I should take a mortgage on the new house, which would be paying off in a very short period of time.

We're using another sort of debt instrument, like a home equity line of credit or something else that might help us reach for those two or three months.

You know, since you're going to pay it off very, very fast, you don't want it closing costs, right? Correct. And a home equity loan will allow you to do that. OK, yeah.

No closing costs and, you know, a fixed rate and no balloons on that home equity line in case this drags out further than you think it's going to. But you're just going to get a home equity loan. It's a little scary. I wish you'd land this up in a little different order.

But but because sometimes these things don't work out like we think they're going to show, you need to be financially and emotionally prepared to own both these houses for a while if that happens. Yeah.

And we're actually blessed in the position, we can do that if that happens. So we're so what you have a lot of cash laying around.

We have about 350 in cash sitting around total net worth about four point eight million. Where's the rest of the money?

One point six million taxable, 350 of its cash. The rest stops.

How much is how much is the beach house? How much are you short by not selling your house? How much are you going to borrow?

So we'd be borrowing probably about 300.

Just take that out of the one point six and it's not in a retirement account.

And just take it just take it as a taxable transaction. Yeah, but I mean, so that shouldn't be shouldn't be a ton of taxes on it because it's not in a retirement account. What taxes would be on it, just the increase in capital gains, capital gains. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I take enough and just pay it off. I know that in a heartbeat there's not a chance with a four point eight dollars million net worth, I'm borrowing money to buy my beach house.

Not I mean, not a chance. Just use some of your money. That's what it's for. Yeah. And, yeah, it may cost you a little bit of capital gains money, but you know, what you can do is just look at the most tax efficient way to do it. In other words, what which pieces of this and these investments do you have that have the highest basis versus their current value? So minimize your capital gains because you cash out the thing with the least gain.

Yeah, and I think you can get some tax advice on that to walk you through it. You can probably do it yourself. You sound like obviously you're very sharp, you know, but now I'm not gonna tell you borrow money. You got four point eight dollars million six available to you. That's not even in retirement accounts. No, no.

And you know, Dave, you brought up the whole thing about timing. It's crucial. I remember working with an entertainer years ago that had a home in L.A. and another home was going to close. And they got this short term financing for two weeks. And guess what? It took two months for this thing to go through. So what I would tell everybody is just slow down, slow way down, look at it, do it with a clear conscience, do it the right way.

And as you said, they expect it to take longer than you think this is going to.

Well, and that's what I would do in your situation, Joe. But obviously, you're not a dumb guy. I mean, you got four point eight dollars million dumb people don't usually do that.

So I met a few, but not many. And so I think you're going to do fine. But that's what I would do if I woke up in your shoes.

And, you know, I'm in the in a situation where my net worth is greater than that. And there's not a chance I would borrow money when I've got taxable. Even if I'm going to pay some taxes on it, I'm going to do that rather than borrow money, because, of course, I don't borrow money.

Well, that's what it is you're allergic to. It couldn't do and I couldn't do it. Well, it's just not an option. It's not even on the table.

And so here's the other thing that I run into. And it won't happen to Joe because he's not he's at a different level. But sometimes when people get in these situations where the house. I was talking to a friend of mine just the other day this happened, and he he closed on his new house and the other house was supposed to close two weeks later, the old house. Well, the buyer gets all jerko fat and starts, you know, every nit picking, little ridiculous thing.

And because he put himself over a barrel, he ended up having to bow down to ridiculous buyer requests at the last minute.

And even even if growing money and possible price cuts and other stuff, because he was stuck, he put himself where he had no walk away power when he could have told that buyer to pound sand. That's right. And get 63 other buyers in line because it ain't like Nashville. Real estate's hard to sell. Right. But when you've got your other house closed and you got the money for a short term, he's over a barrel all of a sudden that buyers got him by the throat.

Yeah, sure. They can misbehave all over the place.

Now, I don't think Joe would allow that to happen, but but this guy and this guy did. And he stood up and he just said, no, you guys are going to do it the right way or we're going to drop this whole thing. I'll start again. But what if he did run his bar off because of buyers misbehaving? So he's got to start again.

And what was supposed to be a two week deal, like you said, end up being a two month or sometimes a two year, because sometimes things like pandemic's come up, they strike right in the middle of your best laid plans right now, though, so.

Yeah, but, you know, that's the thing you put yourself in. And in his case to not in Joe's case, both cases the guys had the money, but they just you know how it is when you've emotionally sold the house.

Then the guy starts being a twerp and you're like, man, you either got to start this whole process over with a new buyer or I got to put up with, you know, OK, I'll do this thing.

Yeah, OK, I'll do that thing. And all of a sudden you're just getting you're getting jerked around because you put yourself in a position emotionally and nice and maybe financially for some people.

Oh yes. But you just like it. Would you be going. Nope, I'm done at work.

Oh jacoway powers imperative. Yeah. Change and it really is just everything.

It just changes the flavor of the deal, changes the way the thing goes down if you're dealing and strength and you can be calm and kind and gentle but.

But firm. Yeah. And you know what to get. You don't have to get run over. But if you're like me and move my furniture, I removed my wife and stuff from the truck. And now and now this guy is, you know, pulling our chain. And if you didn't know, no buyers are sometimes crazy. Yes. I do know some of you people that are buyers are sometimes crazy. This is the Dave Ramsey Show. There's almost always a rise and break ins this time of year, it's why simply say home security is having a huge holiday sale.

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For Sergeant Ramsey, Personality is my co-host today here on The Dave Ramsey Show. Nicole is with us in Northampton, Mass. Hi, Nicole. How are you? I'm feeling very grateful.

I get to talk to you. To you, too. How can we help?

Well, I am turning 23 this week, which is causing me to evaluate my long term financial goals, which I feel pretty good about for myself. I'm no longer in debt. I after taxes, I make about sixty thousand and I'm able to save 75 percent of that between maxing out retirement and then putting the rest in a index fund in a taxable brokerage. Now my question involves like incorporating my financial plan with my my mother and my my sister, who my mom is 66 and she's collecting Social Security.

She's renting and doesn't have any retirement savings. Luckily, she also has no debt since she's been so afraid of it since 2011. Bankruptcy, bankruptcy that she had. She still works as an attorney part time. And she's also my sister's caretaker, who is twenty five and suffers from bipolar disorder. She's currently living on disability and I'm sorry, she's not sure if she'll ever be able to make income. I know. I basically I'm just looking for guidance on how to prepare financially to I mean, my mom can't work forever to support my sister and herself.

So I just want to know how to really best care for eventually what I'll have to support them. Mm hmm. Bless your heart. Wow. Well, the only people that can help. The weak or the strong? And so the stronger you get, the more help you can be. Financially, right? OK. And the stronger you get spiritually and emotionally, the more help you can be.

There are let's pretend that you weren't here.

What would they do? I mean, I guess your sister would qualify for disability that would give her the ability to live with your mom's Social Security and the low rent, and they would be on a beans and rice, rice and beans budget and they would make it OK. Is that the correct answer? I think there's a little factor, and my mom is kind of a spender, she's like, well, she wouldn't if you weren't here.

Yeah, and she had to choose between feeding herself and your sister and her little spending problem, I think she could make that choice. She's an attorney.

She's not dumb. Yes. OK, so let's help her make those choices. And then you're off the hook. Nicole, what happened where you all of a sudden felt the weight of all this on you? Well, my sister has had what's called, sorry, rapid cycling, manic episodes, and she has to be hospitalized like four times in six months. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and a pandemic environment where the entire culture is depressed didn't help, correct? Yeah.

And I want you in the heart that you have right now. I want you to sit down with your mom and I want you all to have a grown up conversation.

Mom, I want you to let her know and let her see your pain, see your fear, see tears if she needs to, to be able to hear you, that this is what you're feeling. And at 23 years old, you don't need to be feeling this way. And so, Mom, I'm going to need you to be mom because she's intelligent. She's working as an attorney. But you need to know. Yeah, you got to take care of you and I'm going to take care of me.

And so we need to then you're going to have enough money because you're saving like a maniac to be a little bit of a backstop. But I am not going to suggest to you at 23 years old that they are your financial responsibility and so they can continue to misbehave and not with their spending and not plan and not talk through what their reality is.

And just because you're there to write checks, that is completely unhealthy and toxic. Yeah. OK, and your feet were feeling the weight of all of that, because there's a little bit of you that goes, I wouldn't have to do this if Mom would get her crap together.

Oh, yes. That to me, it would be it's not fair, it's just I think I'm not sure how I would handle not doing everything I could to help them, even if it is a tough situation, you know. Well, that's called psychological boundaries, and, you know, if your mom's doing cocaine, you don't buy her cocaine, that's a psychological boundary.

And for moms misbehaving and not dealing with realities and you're not there, you know, because basically now we're talking about you're being guilt tripped by somebody or by yourself.

It myself. Yes, OK. All right. So here's the thing. Your obligation is to do what you can. If you are actually helping, if you are participating in their misbehavior, that's not helping. That's called enabling. OK, including making sure that your sister is dealing with her issues and getting all the help she can and doing the work that her therapist says for her to do, and if she's on meds that she's freaking taking her meds, which bipolar manic sometimes struggle with.

OK, OK. She got do her part, mom's got to do her part, and then you can be a backstop if there is a bigger thing than the monthly bills. But I don't want you to set yourself up for 23 with a lifetime of paying bills for people who won't behave.

OK, Nicole, have you paid for things for your mom? I pick up bills here and there sometimes, but it's I would say it's infrequent. Yeah, OK.

Well, I mean, I'm not trying to be mean. I'm trying to set you free and give your mom and your sister the dignity of dealing with their own thing. And then you can still stand on the sidelines and say, if I need to reach over there and help, I'm going to put myself financially in a place to do that.

But if you get nickeled and dimed down to nothing and you're worn down to nothing and you don't have any life except working to support these other two people at 23 years old, that is not going to lead you to a quality life or them. No one's going to win in that scenario.

And so I yeah, I want you to be able to stand on the sidelines strong enough that you can reach over and help them when the situation is healthy for you to help them.

Yeah, you got to be you need to be daughter and sister. Not the parent.

Not mother and mother. That's right. Nicole, thank you for reaching out, young lady. You can hear the pain and the weight, your heart. I hope you'll reach out and talk to someone. But more importantly, sit down and have that conversation with your mom. You probably need to sit down with your pastor and get some people in your corner as well to give you some emotional support while you're making these decisions. Hang on. I'm listening to Henry Clouts book boundaries because you do need to read it and it'll be helpful to you.

It really will.

And so I hang on open phones at eight eight two five five two two five.

Money is only good for three things. I'm buying stuff for yourself, lifestyle investing and helping other people generosity. And so we all unless you're just, you know, a jerk, want to help other people. The trick is how to help other people in a way that is helpful. Yeah. Rather than participating in the insanity and every one of us, you and me included, have the potential to be an enabler. Yeah, we have the potential to participate in someone's misbehavior and causing it to continue.

That's right. Rather than participating in their healing.

And sometimes that means I'm not paying that bill. Yeah. Which forces someone to deal with the stuff they need to deal with to move on and to get into other situations. And I'm not talking about bipolar. I'm talking about just being on a budget. That's right. And I'm not overspending and stuff like that. Being a grown up, that's so hard that if this is the Dave Ramsey Show. You wouldn't trade your education for anything, but what about your student loan debt?

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Kashagan Ramsey personality is my co-host today here on the air, open phones, a triple eight eight two five five two two five. Our Question of the day comes from Blind's Dotcom. Find out for yourself why Blind's Dotcom is the number one online retailer of custom window coverings. You get free samples, free shipping, and with the new promos they run every month, you'll save even more. The magic word, the promo code is Ramsey. All right.

Today's question comes from Shawn in Arizona. He says, My wife and I just finished Baby Step three and are now on steps for five and six. My company contributes 25 percent of the yearly max of the HSA, regardless of whether we contribute or not. We have an emergency fund filled at 12000 and an HSA is sitting around 6000 currently and growing each week. We've been contributing in order to hit the max also. But I was wondering if at any point should we consider slowing down our contributions up to the ante to up the ante on the house?

We have a 10 month old and are all very healthy. Would you advise slowing down the HSA to help pay off the House and our goal of seven years? Hmm, I look at this and I think, why is it or why can't you do both? I mean, you're talking about here the max you can do in the agency for families in 2020 or 70, 100 in 2021. It's it's 70, 200. That includes the employer match.

So why why not do both? Like, I don't know why he would have to stop the agency to attack the house early.

Well, you get the 25 percent going into the HSA regardless of whether you contribute or not. Right. So I would limit your total investing, whatever it is, to 15 percent. And baby, step four of your end. I got you. You don't need a fund that HSA up huge. There's no savings portion of it. I use my HSA, but it's after the house was paid for as a savings vehicle on investing vehicle 6k in there will cover their deductible.

So they're up to snuff on that.

You know, if if you don't have I don't know what your income is. That's the problem here. So but if you need the HSA contribution to get to 15 percent, if that's a way you can get there, then sure, I would do that. But would I use 15 percent plus 7000 into an HSA and then that slow the house?

No, that'd be like investing more than you need and you need to write while you're in baby step four or five, six. Yeah. Now, once the house is paid off. Yeah, I'm actually out my HSA every year among anything else I can do to keep the government's hands off of money.

But I've never even used my HSA. You know, we've got ours invested with a company called Health Equity and they've got mutual funds available inside the HSA. And Old Man's invested like it's a retirement plan, right? I've never touched it. There's several hundred thousand dollars in there. I put it in there since George Bush started the thing way back.

And so because, you know, knock on wood, we've been healthy and be when we weren't, we just sold it and left the HSA alone, used that as an investment vehicle. So it depends on Sean, where you are and whether you need this to get to your fifteen percent.

You're getting the twenty five percent match or contribution from the company either way. Yeah.

And now that Dave has stopped barefoot waterski and stopped you, you're not still doing that already.

Of course I'm still to. Well, I've stopped for the winter. It's cold out there with you, but I, you know, put to ski on be OK.

Show off.

Yes. Andrew is in Burlington, Vermont. Andrew, get Chris out before he gets in trouble. Yes, I get on the internet. Great, man. What's up? Actually, very quickly, say something to Nicole, who was the previous caller, Nicole, I know this is a very tough time in life and I'm in a similar situation. My oldest brother actually is a paranoid schizophrenic and my little brother is a heroin addict. And that's been rough.

But you can get through this and make sure you reach out for help for yourself because it sounds like you're going to have to be the rock. And if the rock is crumbling, that's no good for anyone. So make sure you're taking care of first good work, having been in a similar situation. Good work, brother. Thank you. Said earlier. Thank you. So my heart goes out to you. So my question is, I'm kind of suffering from paralysis, from analysis.

So I wasted my 20s. To be honest, I'm thirty two. I was in my 20s and not getting that compound interest on investing or anything. So I'm luckily enough now in the debt free position except for the House. And I'm wondering about how to calculate risk because keeping the mortgage obviously has his own risk. But I'm trying to figure out if I can split any extra money between investing and the mortgage and what a proper split might be, if that's OK.

Well, everything's OK. The question around here is, what is the shortest distance between where you are and wealth without taking on extraordinary risk?

Because extraordinary risk is not the shortest distance. It catches you off guard, not in the back of the head. And so, you know, that's where the baby steps come from, 15 percent of your income going into retirement. Kid's college, if that applies, is number five and then six as we pay everything else on the house. So are you asking about putting extra beyond 15 percent towards the mortgage or towards the on into investments instead of towards mortgage?

Yes, yes, so I'm putting actually with the company that ends up being about 17 percent towards retirement and we don't count company match in that formula, 15 percent of your income you put in.

And if the company matches, that's gravy on a biscuit. That's OK. OK, so how much are you putting into retirement of your income? Putting in 10, 10 percent. OK, it should be up to 15 plus your company match then and and then above that we put everything on the mortgage. So and I'm confused about your question and you're asking above that. Should you just keep investing instead of paying extra on the mortgage?

Is that what you're asking for? And putting a hundred and fifty extra one hundred and fifty dollars extra a month towards the mortgage, just, you know, kind of making that money work for me ahead of time since the mortgage is only three years old at this point. You know that. So I kind of was just trying to figure out, I guess I'm technically at four months of savings now and then anything above that, if I should split between the mortgage and investing again.

I didn't do any investing. Oh, yeah. No, no, no.

You'd get yourself up to your 15 like they were saying, regardless of the company match. And then you anything extra you're attacking to get this mortgage out of your life, OK? And so you're 32 years young. You're going to be fine. You know, I think you are trying to vacillate back and forth between why I should just keep my mortgage and try to invest more. That's what I'm hearing. If we were to sit down and unpack it.

But no, follow the steps. Do the 15 percent pay the extra on the house? And then now that the house when the house is out of your life, that you can begin to look at looking at bridge accounts and some other things to do to beef up your investing. Follow the plan, brother. Just stay allergic to debt at 30 in the 30s. That's where stupid can creep in and you start to get that deserved mentality. You deserve a boat, a truck or a motorcycle.

Avoid that. You're going to be fine.

Yeah, good question. Thank you for joining us. And good words. Appreciate your sharing.

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Hi, Isaiah. How are you? I'm doing just fine.

Thank you for taking my call. Sure. What's up? All right. So. There's no debate that timing is important and at least 10 percent is what we're required to do. But I just got to a point where Montauban has gotten larger. And I've also noticed that through my local church, there is a statement at the bottom that shows how much our ties and I'm having a moral issue here on whether it is morally acceptable to claim what our times on my taxes.

OK, you mean spiritually? Yeah, yeah, and so you're just checking your heart and going. Am I doing this for the wrong reasons? Yes, that's a good question. I'm glad you're asking that of yourself. I actually wrestled through that one many years ago myself, and I kind of did it at the same point you did when my dad got a little larger and I went, wow, that's some money.

I was wrote it off when it was small. I didn't think anything about it, but it was a big deal.

It was a little bit bigger. And I went, yeah, that's that's like a big tax write off.

Here's the thing. I think you can ask yourself in prayer, honestly, before the Lord, if you were doing this because you feel like it is one of the disciplines, one of the things we do in our spiritual life that God tells us to do because it's good for us, the words of my being obedient.

Or am I tithing because of the tax write off? Ninety nine point ninety nine percent of the time, someone who asks this question doesn't have the problem. That's the one who doesn't ask who might have the problem. The very fact that you had a tender enough heart to even ask the question tells me you're not doing this for the tax write off, am I right?

Yes. OK, if you're not doing it for the tax write off, then it comes down to if I take the tax write off, have I done something wrong when the intent of your heart was you didn't do it for the tax write off, you did it because giving is a part of your faith.

Walk agreed.

Yeah, OK, then it comes down to me to stewardship and in my mind to be a good manager of money, one part of that is to keep the government's hands off of as much of it as possible because they are not good managers of money.

So sending them any money that I don't have to do is by definition a bad manager of money. And so it is it's beyond it is in my mind. Once I got there, I said to myself, I would not be spiritually correct to not take the write off.

Well, because by sending them the money that they when they misbehave with it is a bad, bad use of God's money and managing his money. Well, by sending it to someone that's wasteful.

Right. When I don't have to, you know, now I wouldn't lie about it and I wouldn't cheat and I'm not. And I have incredible integrity on my taxes.

It's ridiculous how much integrity I have.

Every stinking little dollar and piece of cash and everything is counted.

We don't let anything slip under the table, not because I'm afraid of an audit, but because I want to be honourable before the Lord and have integrity about my taxes. But integrity also includes paying as little in taxes as the law allows because they're bad managers.

How's that sound?

OK, that sounds a lot better, but I have run into people and doing what we do.

And Chris, you probably have to. And usually it is where there's some sides to the giving that the reason they're giving is for the tax write off, which, by the way, is bad math, but also it's really bad spiritually. And then sometimes I run into people who are giving because they want to be noticed.

Yes. And that's, you know, I want my name on the building or I want you know, I demand this or I demand that. Now we've put our name on a few things when we did giving.

But but it wasn't like that was wasn't again, it was not our motivation. What in your heart?

Yeah. I say you're in the right place, buddy. And I think, you know, as your income grows, the dollar amount is going to continue to grow. And you're totally fine to be able to claim that on your taxes as you move forward.

Let me give you another prediction. OK, ACOR, I got you a guy who asked this question. Is managing the money well, because you're sensitive to what God's use of the money is, and are you in his will, are you doing that? That makes you an excellent manager. And I will give you a prediction that your money will grow because you're an excellent manager. The parable, the talents tells me that those who manage well will be given more to manage and those who don't manage oil are given less to manage.

And actually, that's God. Yeah. And so there's a wealth inequality thing for you right there. I'll mess you up.

Well, he'll also be very aware of how the church is using the funds and what they're doing and how their impact on the community.

And so your heart's in the right place. But yeah, very good. I love that question. I haven't had that one in a long time. Thank you for calling in with that.

Open phones at triple eight, eight to five five two to five. You know, Chris, I'll take that step further. We continue that discussion a minute, because one of the things I find is.

And you and I have both observed this, see if you agree with the statement that people who have a very noble. Reason a higher calling, so to speak, for handling their money will have a more of a tendency for handling it.

Well, no, I would completely agree. So in other words, if I want to change my family tree, I'm doing this for the good of my kids so that my kids don't have to grow up. I grew up poor. Some guy says I didn't. But I mean, I grew up middle class. But if you grow up poor and you say, I don't want my kids to have to grow up that way, that's a higher calling.

That's unknowability. It's not selfish. It's not. I want to get wealthy so I can get a car. Right. It's not wealthy. I want to get wealthy so I can go to St. Lucia. You know, that's not that's not your reason. That's a fairly shallow reason. It's an OK thing to do. But if that's all the bigger a reason you have, you're not going to go.

But probably the highest calling, the most noble calling are when a person of faith says. I've got to do this because this is what God requires, I'm not it's not my money. I'm managing it for him. And I've been doing a bad job managing his money.

And I've got to straighten my act up when they have that kind of motivation. Those are some of the people who will sacrifice the deepest in order to win. They're the ones their budget is clean. They're not cheating. There's no hish ever comes up in their language because the nobility of their why is so high. Yeah, absolutely.

And that's the gauge. That's the thing that keeps them on that track and won't let them veer off. You know, they are intentional. And that's I remember having that awakening some 15, 16 years ago.

You know, the other thing that does for those of you out there that are people of faith, OK, when you take that position, then you're no longer taking a poll. From your parents, who turn their nose up and roll their eyes or your friends who go, oh, yeah, well, nobody ever gets out of debt, you're like, I'm not talking to Paul because I'm doing this for you.

That's why I'm doing this for your approval. I'm not even doing it for my own approval. I'm doing this because I feel like this. What God requires is right, because the borrowers slave to the lender.

That's right.

And people don't get to vote, you know, and just your need your need to please other people goes away.

It goes away in tandem with you having that level of higher calling. Sure does. And that's another element that causes people to win. When you are trying to be a people pleaser and everybody in your freaking life has a vote. Yeah. And you're trying to impress them. You're trying to make them think you're cool. You're you're doing whatever you're keeping up with the Joneses or the Instagram's or the Kardashians or whatever it is you're trying to be that person.

You're never going to have any money. That's right. You can be broke your whole freakin life. And, you know, part of not needing to please other people sometimes is having something bigger to please.

I like that. And that that's you know, I have seen that with my fellow believers, the ones who who say, OK, I've got to do this because this is what God says to do and I want to stand before him and here.

Well done. Good and faithful service.

When I when I manage his money, I want to feel him smiling.

By the way, I did it with my generosity, with my diligence. It causes you to get a will. It causes you get life insurance. It causes you to be on a budget because you get out of debt. It causes you to buy things more carefully and wisely.

It changes everything. It does change at all. And it's so worth it.

But that puts us our the Dave Ramsey Show on the books. Our thanks to James Childs, our producer, Kelly Daniel, our associate producer. I am Dave Ramsey. That other voices. Chris Hogan, we'll be back with you.

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