You. Hey, everyone. First off, we want to thank you for listening to The Defenders. And now we want to hear from you what you've learned, what's sticking with you, what questions you still have, and what you're motivated to do as a result of listening. Right now, you can take our short survey to help us better understand the impact of our work. And even better, once you've completed the survey, you can enter for a chance to win a $100 Visa gift card. The survey is short and sweet and will help us keep bringing you content you love. Take the survey at Bit ly slash the defenders survey. That's bit. Ly slash the defenders survey. Thanks again.

Meet Jeanette McCurdy. She's an author, a writer, and a big feeler. So much so that she's making a podcast all about her feelings. Jeanette's memoir, I'm Glad My Mom Died, welcomed the world into the story of Jeanette and all of the intense life experiences that molded her into the person she is today. But how does she manage all of the messy, hard feelings she's feeling right now? In each episode of Hard Feelings, her new podcast with Lemonada Media, she'll tell you all about it jealousy, shame, social anxiety. She wants to laugh about it, cry about it, and work through it. With you by her side, why these hard feelings?

This episode contains content about suicidal ideation. Please take care while listening.

My name is Koi.

I use daisy at pronouns, and I just come here to kind of just hang out and socialize, and I get to see my partners. Miss one.

Hey, I'm Charlote. I'm just kind of here to hang.

Out with all the gays. Here is the weekly LGBTQ plus youth group at Out Memphis in Tennessee.

I come almost every week. You come most weeks, I think.

Yeah, just as often as I can.

But Koi and Charlote are sitting on a couch together. It's mid May. Koi's 13, almost 14, and Charlote is 14. Around them, other teens are playing card games, coloring, laughing, and talking.

Well, I like being able to just kind of be myself and talk about things, and I like the chaos. There's a mannequin walking by, but I like just the atmosphere of it. It's fun, and there's a lot of times fun things for us to do.

The two teens met at Out Memphis in February at the youth group. Out Memphis is an LGBTQ plus organization in Tennessee.

I bit her when we met, actually. I literally chomped down on her arm to prove a point, and she said it hurt for three days. And so I actually have a name tag that says, warning, this creature bites.

In my day, we just wrote a note with our crush's name on it and passed it to a classmate, who passed it to another classmate. Eventually, the note made it into said crush's hands. But teens these days are a lot more creative.

You hang out in a room over there. And then we started talking. We fought with pillows. I bit her, and now we're here and we're dating.

We started dating pretty quickly.

Yeah, well, I'm non binary, but they're transgender, so I call her my girlfriend, but I'm polyamorous, so I have two partners. Actually met my other partner here, too.

Their other partner was the one walking by with the mannequin earlier.

Yeah, right there with the mannequin.

About two months before this youth group hangout at Out, Memphis, Tennessee. Governor Bill Lee signed Hv One into law. It bans trans healthcare in the state for people under the age of 18, which means that trans youth cannot access gender affirming care like hormone therapy and puberty blockers in Tennessee. Coy's first thought about the ban overturn.

The government in the Declaration of Independence. I believe it says something like, if government is failing, overturn it and create a new government.

Yeah, but that takes a lot of people a lot of power.

I choose to ignore it because it causes me a lot of stress. For one, I want to punch people, and I would gladly have sharp teeth, and I'm willing to put them to use.

Coy does not see themselves choosing to live in Tennessee for the long term.

Unless things change, it's going to be too difficult for me to live here, because if things keep going the way they are, I'll probably be considered illegal.

Illegal. That is the message Tennessee lawmakers are sending to trans youth. Tennessee has passed more anti LGBTQ plus laws than any other state in the country, 15 laws over the past eight years. All of this is telling Coy and Charlote and other trans youth, we don't want you here. You don't belong. That's why this space at Out Memphis is so crucial. Out Memphis welcomes them to be whoever they are and gives them a space where they can simply just be, which, in a state like Tennessee, is pretty radical. This is The Defenders, a show about the fight for freedom in a post row America. I'm Gloria Riviera.

And I'm Samantha B. This week, we look at how the gender affirming care ban is impacting trans teens in Tennessee. And you might be wondering, what does that have to do with abortion? Isn't this show about abortion? Yes, but here's the thing. Health care for transgender people and abortion rights are actually deeply connected. It's not an accident that the states most aggressively going after trans healthcare happen to be the same places where abortion is basically banned. These attacks share a playbook, one that has been honed and perfected for decades.

We are seeing so deeply on the ground level what it really feels like to have your public health system be so compromised by politics. It is harder to get people all the different kinds of comprehensive care that they deserve.

Molly Quinn is the executive director of Out Memphis, which hosts the LGBTQ plus youth group. She refuses to separate abortion and gender affirming care when it comes to advocacy. Both are about bodily autonomy. Bodily autonomy. It's the simple idea that you should have the right to decide what happens to your body. To make decisions that are right for you and your family seems fundamental, but that is what is taken away when lawmakers restrict abortion and trans health care.

It's like a fight for freedom. It's a fight for dignity. Our organization, our movement has been close to the movement for abortion. We see it as our joint efforts. And right now it's been this constant kind of war room that we're in together.

War room, that's a good way to describe it. Because being queer in Tennessee can feel like you're in a constant battle against time, against lawmakers. Yet somehow the youth group at Out Memphis manages to be a space to feel free. The LGBTQ Plus youth group for ages twelve to 17. Meets at the Out Memphis Community Center. Every Saturday.

Folks are gathering or wandering in. This is mostly our usuals these are youth that come here every week and participate in our events. Folks are coming in, getting a name tag. There's snacks in the kitchen, music playing, and then in a few minutes, we have a visit from a therapy dog.

I think today Molly greets a teen as they come in.

Your hair looks so good.

Thank you. I love it.

Do you like it? Yes. A lot better than the long hair.

Ella's one of the usuals. We're using only the first names of some people in the story to protect their privacy and safety. Elle's pronouns are they them, but Ella's thinking of trying out he him, which the group welcomes.

You're allowed to try out different pronouns here, which is really nice because feels like if you try to switch pronouns that it will just get so confusing for other people. So it's nice to be able to come here and try out different pronouns.

Ella's eager to begin gender affirming care. It's a decision they came to after a lot of thought and research.

I started, I guess, doing research when I was 14, did some more when I was 15. And then eventually I kind of got to a place where I'm ready, and I expressed that to my mom.

And then that was several months ago. Then they heard the state was considering.

Banning it, and I was like, what? Because I'm just now starting to look into getting care, and it's being taken away from me.

Like other teens at the group, tennessee's ban is impacting Elle's life. They won't be able to get care in Tennessee.

My mom and I are currently trying to figure out going to Illinois and getting treatment for me since I can't get it here.

Elle wants to talk to a health provider about a couple things, including period blockers.

I'm excited to get on care. I'm excited to start the process of talking about top surgery. I'm not ready now, but I know that starting the process now means that I have the ball in my court and that I would be like, I could control when I get it.

Elle is lucky they have support from their family. Their mom Anne is also dropping off Elle's younger brother at the youth group.

Hi, Ann. How are you?

Good, how are.

You?

Anne has four kids, two in the youth group. The other two are nine year old twins. She is totally on board and supports Elle starting gender affirming health care, even if it means driving 3 hours each way to Illinois and possibly staying overnight if needed. She does worry about juggling this while raising three other kids who also need her.

But this is a huge priority. This is definitely happening. I'm not going to let my child feel constant dysphoria and I am 100% on plan with whatever it takes because.

The alternative is much more difficult that dysphoria.

Just watching that on a day to day basis as a parent is really hard because you just want to see them, your kids, to be happy and it's an impossible feat when they're born in the wrong body.

Gender dysphoria is this feeling of distress that Anne's describing, which can happen when you don't identify with the sex you were assigned at birth. Like Anne, parents of trans kids in Tennessee and in other band states are making hard decisions about how to provide the best environment for their kid until they turn 18. Do you move your family? Do you choose homeschooling to avoid bullying and create more flexibility for your family? Do you, like Anne, decide to drive them out of state for care? Even before the law went into effect July 1, providers were already canceling appointments with patients under 18. That happened to another teen at the group, 15 year old Taylor.

They canceled it, which was really ridiculous to me because the lady was like, pardon my French, but like, you're shit out of luck. That was pretty much it.

Many of the young people in the room are feeling the impacts of the legislation and are stressed out.

It's just so complicated and I feel like we're kids, we shouldn't be having to feel all these complicated emotions. It's not natural to be worrying about your human rights as a teenager. You should be having fun with your friends, going to the mall, whatever kids like to do.

And for Taylor that's coming to out Memphis. All the teens at the group we spoke to said something similar. The joy in their lives is centered in this youth group. ANU Ayer knows that as the Director of Community and Family Initiatives at Out Memphis, their job is to create this welcoming space that is no easy task.

It's not that heavy of a lift on our end just to unlock the community center and have it be a youth only space for 2 hours out of the week. It's pressure in the sense that there aren't other spaces like this that exist.

In this time when the trans community is under attack, these teens are still able to meet and laugh together and feel accepted.

They are the definition of joy and joy as an act of resistance. The fact that despite everything that's happening in their weeks, that they can just come here and decompress and know that they can be themselves. That in itself is the antithesis of what our legislators are trying to do to us.

And those legislators aren't holding back.

Ladies and gentlemen, we will now convene the Health Subcommittee for Tuesday, January 31, the year 2023.

We're in Tennessee's state Capitol. Republican State Representative David Hawke is the Chair of the House Health Subcommittee.

We are now going on to our third bill and final bill on the calendar today. That is house bill one by Leader Lambert.

Leader Lambert HB One, the House bill to ban transgender related health care for minors in Tennessee. The subcommittee was the bill's first hurdle to clear on its quick journey to becoming law. Elle and their mom Anne had hoped to testify, but the schedule changed last minute and no out. Memphis youth got to speak. Elle says sitting through the hearing was intense.

The hardest thing about it is that you couldn't actually say anything. You had to be very, very quiet.

We will not tolerate any outbursts from the audience. If any of those things do occur, you'll be asked to leave and you'll free up a seat for someone else.

The all male, all white Health subcommittee, along with staffers, sat behind a dais in front of a standing room crowd, which included trans kids and their parents. What sticks out the most to Elle and Anne was something Republican. Representative Paul Sherrell said, Representative Cheryl.

You are recognized. Thank you, Chairman. We've got to protect our children some way. Maybe there is children listening and you may not know or you may not think you know what you are today. And if you don't know and our preacher would say, if you don't know what you are, a boy or girl, a male or female, just go in the bathroom and take your clothes off and look in the mirror and you'll find out what you are. If you'll look in the mirror, you'll find out.

Elle's mom, Anne again, you could hear.

People take in their breath. Like that, to me, was the story that this man is gross. We know he's gross. He never should have said that. But the audible gasp from the room of that was beyond inappropriate. And we can't believe that was just said. That's what gives me hope. And I have to remain hopeful, and I have to keep my kids in that hopeful space because I got to keep them safe, and I got to keep them loved.

Okay, before we move on Sam. Can we pause and talk about why that comment was so gross and inappropriate?

As Ann said, yes, we can. Being born with a certain body part does not dictate what gender you are. Sex is not the same as gender, and gender is not binary.

Totally. Yes, he's acting like trans and intersex people just don't exist at all. Plus, it's just wrong to be talking about kids in that way. It reduces people down to body parts, and we're all more complex than that. We are. And to Elle, what Representative Cheryl said wasn't just disgusting, it was scary.

Because representatives, a lot of them tend to deny that they don't like trans people or any of that because they don't want to seem hateful even though they put in laws like this. It was very scary seeing someone openly go ahead and say, I hate trans people and I don't care about minors at all. I just hate trans people and whatever way I can make their lives miserable, I am going to.

To be clear, representative Cheryl did not say he hated trans kids at that health subcommittee meeting. But that's the sentiment Elle heard. That's what his words meant to them. Anne reminds Elle that the lawmakers supporting the bill don't represent how most people feel.

I tell Elle and I've told all of my kids, most people are all about the love. There are a few people out there that just have hate in their hearts. When your kids are little, that's how you explain it to them. When they first see something that's just ugly. In this case, the people with that hateful feeling are the ones making decisions. They're not listening to the community.

Though Elle didn't get to speak at the meeting, they really wanted to.

I have been quiet for a while out of fear and going down and actually being able to say something to a lawmaker would have felt like maybe I would have been heard. Even if it didn't change anything. I know that I tried and hopefully that maybe they would see this insight that banning trans healthcare isn't helping anyone. It's just spreading more hate.

Had Anne spoken to the health subcommittee, she would have said how the legislation makes it difficult to parent.

This law is banning the voices and the experts that I need to be able to get the right care for my child. I don't know how to navigate any of this when it's all of a sudden become this taboo topic. And my first job is to love my kid. My second job is to protect them, and I need medical expertise to do that.

The bill passed a subcommittee that day. A version of it was sent to the governor's desk about a month later. Despite the law, Ann is determined to get Elle gender affirming care out of state.

We're going to pursue this. We're going to listen to the medical experts. We're going to listen to therapists. We're going to listen to the people in the know, and most importantly, we're gonna listen to Elle.

Anne is approaching this so intelligently and with so much love. She's following her kids lead, but also understands that she and Elle aren't the experts. These healthcare decisions are not black and white. They require the guidance of trustworthy medical professionals. Unfortunately, in states like Tennessee, that's hard to do when politicians are getting in the way of access, much like they have for decades when it comes to abortion care. Coming up, we look at the shared playbook of the anti trans and anti abortion movements.

The extremist movement we're facing is an illiberal one, an antidemocratic one, and one that is hoping to write your life story for you.

The William and Flora Hewlett Foundation believes everyone should have a meaningful opportunity to thrive, no matter who they are or where they come from. But right now, people in the US. And across the world are confronted by enormous challenges. From catastrophic climate change and pervasive inequities to attacks on democracy itself. Institutions at every level are struggling to provide solutions that work for all people, and there's a growing lack of faith in each other and even in the possibility that progress is possible. That's why the Hewlett foundation supports a diverse set of creative thinkers and problem solvers who engage across differences, advance constructive dialog, and address institutional failures. Whether through its work in gender equity, democracy, environment, education, or the arts, the Hewlett foundation seeks to harness our collective capacity to build a world where all people have the opportunity to thrive. Learn More@hewlett.org women's bodies are at the center of today's cultural conversations. We face overt regulations that dominate the headlines, but we also face quiet regulations. They are so entrenched in our everyday lives that decisions around our bodies and how we feel about them are no longer ours alone to make. Because so much of what women experience is shrouded in secrecy, treated as an afterthought, or just blatantly ruled by societal expectations and norms, the simple act of exchanging stories becomes the most powerful tool we can use to stay informed.

Introducing Unruly, an eight part podcast from Flamingo highlighting the not often discussed ways women's bodies are subjected to needless oversight. Hosted by writer, curator, and activist Kimberly Drew, unruly tackles conversations around body neutrality, wellness, capitalism, menopause, and more. Because information is power and your body is your business, unruly is available wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more@shopflamingo.com. Slash Unruly. And we're back.

We are back.

So, Sam, Gloria, this is a show about abortion.

Sure is.

I am wondering if you would do us the honor of explaining why we're focusing this episode on trans healthcare.

Gloria, I would love to. So we are talking about the fight for gender affirming care in this episode because it's actually really closely linked to the fight for abortion rights.

They share that idea of bodily autonomy. Right?

Exactly.

Here.

Listen to this.

When a transgender person accesses hormones or surgery, they are exercising the same muscle as someone who is accessing birth control or accessing abortion. They are looking to determine their own future.

That's Jillian Bramsteader.

I'm the communication strategist for the ACLU's Women's Rights Project and LGBT and HIV project.

Part of Jillian's job is studying the anti trans and anti abortion movements.

The extremist movement we're facing is an illiberal one, an anti democratic one, and one that is hoping to write your life story for you.

The Antiabortion and the antitrans movements have a lot in common, starting with the fact that they're led by a lot of the same people. It's all part of the same overall far right strategy. They focus on these issues because they help them win elections. They win elections so they can build political power, and they build political power so they can reinforce patriarchal power structures. Look, I know that was a lot of scary buzwords, but hear me out. Let's take a look at one of the groups involved in both the anti trans and anti abortion movements. This little organization is called the Alliance Defending Freedom. They're kind of like the ACLU's evil twin.

So the alliance defending Freedom is a conservative legal behemoth. They have thousands of lawyers across the country who are members. And if you ask them, what they're dedicated towards is, quote, unquote, religious liberty.

And when Jillian says they're dedicated to religious liberty, what she means is that they're dedicated to their very particular, very Christian idea of a traditional family.

They start from the framework that the only proper family is one cisgender man, one cisgender woman raising the children that they have biologically conceived together, and beyond that, that everyone with a uterus is a caregiver and everyone with a penis is a breadwinner, and that patriarchal inequality is just a reflection of these biological differences.

So it comes down to power and who has it. And organizations like the Alliance Defending Freedom bake their regressive worldview into law, making it very hard for anyone who doesn't fit into their idea of quote, unquote traditional to exist.

Oh, boy. Wait. The alliance defending freedom. Why does that name sound familiar?

Well, probably because they're the ones who wrote the Mississippi law that led to Dobbs. They were one of the key forces behind the end of Roe. They're also listed as an anti LGBTQ hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center, and they are good at what they do. In the years since the election of Donald Trump, they've become one of the most influential anti LGBTQ groups in the country. You may know them from hits like The Hobby Lobby Case or Masterpiece Cake Shop Versus Colorado Civil Rights Commission. And most recently, the ADF represented Lori Smith, a web designer. She wanted to post a notice saying that she wouldn't build any websites promoting same sex marriage, despite the fact that no gay couples had actually ever requested her services.

Geez, talk about picking a fight.

Anyways, even more important than the people the antitrans and anti abortion movements have in common is the playbook they share. And that leads us to the American Principles project. They're another one of the key organizations behind the anti trans panic that's been sweeping the nation. Here's their leader, Terry Schilling.

It's imperative that the next presidential candidate recognizes transgenderism for both the threat that it poses to America's future, but also the political opportunity that opposing this agenda offers to hmm.

We're going to be coming back to Terry, but I want to underscore what he just said. They see trans people as threats, but also as political opportunities. This is something they've learned from the fight against abortion.

What do you mean?

Well, these far right Strategists use a really simple playbook. It's the same for their campaigns against abortion and trans people. It's been battle tested over the course of decades, and it is astonishingly effective. There are three steps. Step one, identify an issue. Step two, freak people out. And step three, change the landscape.

Okay, I got it. So can you walk us through what that actually looks like in the anti trans movement?

Sure. I'll just need a little help from our good friend Terry Schilling. He was all too willing to lay out their own roadmap.

The first step is to set the agenda and recruit political support for that agenda.

About five years ago, they identified trans people as a political target. So they started doing focus groups to define the agenda, trying to figure out exactly what antitrans issue would rile up their base the most, but also, like, pull some moderates to the right. They had already tried bathrooms. Maybe you remember what happened in North Carolina.

Governor of North Carolina signed a controversial law that says bathrooms or locker rooms be designated for use only by people based on their biological sex.

Oh, yeah, I do remember that. And there was that massive backlash. The NBA relocated the All Star Game. Bruce Springsteen refused to play concerts in North Carolina.

And ultimately, that backlash led to the law getting repealed. But the far right wasn't ready to give up on using trans folks as political opportunities. They just needed the right approach. And then they found it.

You win the campaigns and elections by focusing on the issues where the best political opportunities are. The first is women's sports. This issue works best primarily with suburban and Democrat leaning women.

I just want to emphasize that last part. This is a far right think tank refining their antitrans messaging to sway Democratic leaning women. They're not just preaching to the choir. They're talking to, I don't know, me. You, our listeners, our friends. And the trans sports panic gave them a way in. Groups like ADF have taken the threat of trans athletes from focus groups and spread the message through ads like this charmer for the governor's race in Kentucky. All female athletes want is a fair.

Shot at competition, at scholarship, at a title, at victory. But what if that shot was taken.

Away by someone who claims to be a girl but was born a boy? Now, most liberal leaning people don't believe that these trans kids are claiming to be girls. They are girls. But there's something about this idea of fairness that is hitting a nerve with voters across the political spectrum. So let's talk about it. The idea that all trans girls have a leg up on all CIS girls is just wrong. The sex you're assigned at birth is just one of a million factors that play into how good you are at a sport. It's way less important than stuff like your natural talent, how hard you train, what kind of coaching you have access to. I mean, I'd love to see Terry Schilling play one on one with a WNBA player.

Me too.

There's also this argument that more testosterone gives an unfair advantage to trans girls. But the connection between testosterone and athletic performance is murky at best. There just hasn't been enough credible research on it. But it doesn't matter if it's true. It just has to feel true and get under people's skin. Now, we could talk about how rare it is for trans athletes to participate in girl sports and try to address every talking point head on. But to do that accepts that this is even a legitimate debate, which it's not. And I know that's hard to understand when the messaging is so potent, it's very tempting to take the bait. But when we do, we open the door to rolling back people's rights, just like what happened with abortion. Ultimately, the far right doesn't actually care about what's, quote unquote, fair. They just want political power. And it is working. Just take it from Terry.

Republicans are beginning to see the political advantages of fighting the trans agenda.

And that brings us to step two freak people out. Once you find the issues you can build support around, you spread that message far and wide. There's a massive political machine at work here organizations, conferences, policy trainings, sharing strategies on what gets voters riled up. And the strategy that works best fear. It's one of the most powerful political motivators out there. Tennessee actually provides a great example of this with abortion. Back in 2014, the right's agenda was to remove the right to abortion from the state constitution.

Right? I remember this from our last episode again.

The ultimate goal was, of course, to ban abortions entirely. But if they said that explicitly, they would turn off a ton of voters. So instead, they tried to make it look like they were protecting women from scary abortionists. Here, listen to this ad they ran.

You're listening to an actual 911 call. Does she have any Obama phone?

I'm sure she does.

She's in the middle of getting an abortion.

Some. Tennessee abortion facilities are not regulated like other surgical centers. This has to change, and you can help. Okay, got it. So they took one example of an abortion going wrong without any context and created the sense of panic around it.

Yes, exactly. And there are a lot of people out there who might hear that ad. And no, this isn't about banning abortion. This is about protecting women. These abortion clinics are out of control.

Even though abortions are safer than childbirth and there wasn't actually a problem to begin with.

Yes, exactly. And it worked. Tennessee got rid of the right to abortion under their state constitution, and piece by piece, the right has been able to use moments like this, as inflection points, to erode abortion rights across the country. And Terry Schilling in the American principles Project realized they could use some of the same strategies around trans people, strategies like manufacturing a controversy and pushing for protections, which are really just restrictions. And right now, they're doing exactly that with gender affirming care.

This morning, Idaho and Indiana are officially.

Banning gender affirming care for transgender youth.

It is official florida doctors cannot provide gender affirming care for minors.

Governor Greg Abbott and state Attorney General Ken Paxton went so far as to say that this care should be categorized as child abuse.

Child abuse?

I know it's wild, but it goes back to freaking people out. The more extreme the rhetoric, the more people start to see something like gender affirming care as controversial and the more elections they can win.

And then step three change the landscape.

Yes, change the landscape. 22 states have passed laws making it illegal for doctors to provide gender affirming care to minors. In some states, it's a felony.

So they're criminalizing health care. Just like with abortion.

Exactly like with abortion. And then, as Terry puts it, this.

Three step process we recommend to rinse, wash, and repeat and keep moving the ball forward.

So that's what it's all about, moving the ball forward, identifying new threats, capitalizing on new opportunities. And step by step, you can gradually change what people think is right and wrong.

So it really is just a playbook. They identify the issue by figuring out what will play best with the electorate. They freak people out by spreading misinformation across the country, and then they change the landscape by winning elections and passing laws.

Antitrans and antiabortion laws. Again, 22 states have passed laws restricting gender affirming care for minors, and 20 of those states also have bans on abortion.

Wow. That is a huge overlap.

Yeah, and it's not an accident, because there's another advantage to this whole trans panic. It distracts people from abortion.

But wait, why would they want to distract them from abortion?

Because under Trump and his new supreme Court appointees overturning Roe was looking more and more like a reality. And that meant they'd eventually need another issue to turn out voters.

Oh, shit.

Here's jillian from the ACLU again, the.

American Principles Project and others began trying to fashion this panic around 2018. And it's important that that happened in 2018 because one of the other major things that happened in 2018 was the nomination of Justice Bret Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court.

We all remember that, yes, people were.

Extremely upset, and that was only the beginning.

The conservative movement was increasingly aware of the fact that they were likely moving towards a Supreme Court decision overturning Roe v. Wade. And one of the things they knew was that this was going to be disastrously unpopular. And because they knew of all the horrors that we were going to see and have seen since the Dobbs opinion last summer, I suspect that one of the selling points for these transphobic narratives was that it could help them hold on to the voters who are now pumbling them over abortion.

So they needed to get people to focus on something else.

Yes. And as Jillian so eloquently puts it.

The hope is that they can make people so afraid of transgender people's freedom that they won't mind sacrificing their own.

When we buy into the panic around trans rights, we work against our best interests in preserving abortion rights because, and I can't emphasize this enough, they are not separate fights. So the next time you're at a family dinner and your cousin says, I'm all for abortion rights, but this trans healthcare thing doesn't quite sit right, say to them this feeling that you're grappling with. It actually comes from right wing propaganda that has been tailor made for you by the same people who overturned Roe. And if you want to defeat them when it comes to abortion, you have to commit to the fight for trans rights, too. And we're not going to beat them without understanding what they're doing, why they're doing it, and most importantly, how they're doing it.

But anyways, I'm going to get off.

My soapbox for now, because I'd much rather hear from more people who are living the lives they want to live, even in the face of all this hate.

Agreed. Despite all the fear campaigns and propaganda, trans people are still living their lives with dignity. After the break, we'll meet 21 year old Vaniel Simmons. As a teen, Vaniel struggled very much like the teens at the Out Memphis youth group, and they got through it. Coming up, the view from the other side with HelloFresh, you get farm fresh pre portioned ingredients and seasonal recipes delivered right to your doorstep. Skip trips to the grocery store and count on HelloFresh to make home cooking easy, fun, and affordable. That's why it's America's number one meal kit. The holiday season can be hectic, and that's where HelloFresh's 15 minutes meals come in. These quick fixes help you get a wholesome meal on the table in much less time than it takes to get delivery. Just like always, HelloFresh's ingredients travel from the farm to your door so you know they're fresh and everything arrives pre portioned so you can get right to cooking very quick. I love HelloFresh. I just made the sweet chili chicken bowls with chicken thighs, jasmine rice, bell pepper, and candied peanuts. I cannot believe I made this in my own kitchen. It was so, so good.

In case you missed it, HelloFresh is so much more than delicious dinners. They also can help take the hassle out of every mealtime occasion with easy breakfast, quick lunches, and snacks, all delivered along with your weekly box. Go to HelloFresh.com Defendersfree and use the Code Defendersfree for free breakfast for life. One breakfast item per box. While subscription is active, that's free breakfastforlife@hellofresh.com slash Defendersfree with Code Defenders free HelloFresh America's number one meal kit. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. The days are getting shorter, and your mood might be fluctuating a little bit. Do you have the support you need to manage this time of year? With all of its emotions, it is normal to be stressed during the holidays, so finding the right therapist can be exactly what you need to keep yourself motivated and moving as you maneuver those highs and lows. It can be so, so helpful to have a trained professional there to support you. Plus, for a lot of people, a therapy session is that weekly selfcare check in they've been needing for me. I always say, hey, I can't paint my own nails. So of course I need a therapist, knowing my therapist is there and well versed in my own backstory and ready to help enlighten me as to what is actually going on in my life and how I can show up for that.

It's an anchor, a regular dose of introspection and support, and I end up feeling a lightness to my week. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's super convenient, flexible, and fits right into your schedule. You can do it all from the comfort of your own home. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Find your bright spot this season with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com Defenders today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. He lp.com defenders.

Hello.

Hello.

Hi. Nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you, too.

I'm Gloria.

My name is Daniel.

Daniel, it's so nice to see you.

Daniel Simmons greets me outside their apartment in Memphis. It's a sunny May afternoon. Vanilla is 21, currently a student at Rhodes College, double majoring in gender and sexuality studies and psychology. Their black t shirt says Gender is a drag.

I mostly use they then pronouns, although I'm fine with any identify as trans, masculine and genderqueer queer in general.

Daniel has been taking testosterone for the past four years, since they were 17. They self administer it at home.

I keep everything just in my bedroom.

Vaniel holds up a large empty laundry detergent container.

You can use any hard plastic container as a sharp container.

Written across the container in black sharpie are the words used needles. Exclamation point. Okay, so you just unscrew this is a Tide laundry detergent.

Oh, right.

And the needles go in there.

Whenever I made my first one, I actually painted it and I decorated it, and I wrote, Van the man's needle can.

Oh, my God.

And I covered it in, like, glittery stickers. I was like, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to have fun with it. Yeah.

Vaniel injects themselves in the stomach, so.

They go anywhere around the belly button. About like an inch ish away from the belly button on either side. You're going to pinch the skin a little bit.

Okay. There it goes.

It's about to go in.

You just stick it in and push it down. And you can see that it takes a lot longer to actually push it in.

Yeah.

So thick.

Because it's so thick, it takes Vaniel about 15 seconds to administer the shot. Okay, done.

And then there's just a little dab of blood.

Yeah.

Put a little bandaid on.

Do you do it the same day every week?

It's definitely advised to, and I definitely attempt to.

You do your best.

The keyword being there is attempt.

And the whole needle just went into the Tide laundry. Goodbye, needle. Vaniel started gender affirming care when they were 17, something teens that age in Tennessee are now banned from doing. The antiside says it's about protecting children. But Vaniel was the most at risk when they couldn't get access to that care and then became their best self happy, confident, and truly living in their body when they got the care. It started with small steps first when Daniel was about 14, growing up in a small town in Arkansas.

The first ever affirming thing I did for myself, which I think was actually before I came out to most people, was buy, like, a binder, a chess binder. I had got it near the holidays because this was a trick I learned online from Tumblr. They were like, buy it near the holidays. And whenever it arrives, you can act like it's a secret and people will think it's like a gift for someone.

Okay.

All these hacks, right? Yeah. And so I got it. It was a whole thing. And then right after I got it, I signed up for the school play, and I got a masculine role in that. So then I kind of used that to be like, hey, Grandpa, do you want to go to Goodwill and help me try to find a masculine outfit for the school play? Not for any other reason at all, just for the school play. I put a lot more effort into these things than I think was actually necessary. I don't think my family cared that much.

Yeah, that's what I was just thinking out, like, all these hoops that you're jumping through are to some degree of your own creation, but is it fair to say, in your mind, they were keeping you safe?

It was definitely, like, protective factor.

Yeah.

It was also just less anxiety inducing at that age.

Vaniel was still acquiring the language of being trans and learning about gender dysphoria, so they weren't yet comfortable or confident explaining it to others. When Vaniel did become ready, not everyone else was. Vaniel tried to start a Gender and Sexuality Alliance social support group at their school, but was told their ideas were too progressive. So Vaniel gave up and just shut down.

I didn't feel like the environment was conducive for me to be a person that was trans right at that point. I had all of the I had the language, I had the resources even.

Did you feel stuck?

Very much. I felt very trapped in the town I was in.

Yeah.

And it was very much I had made the decision in my head that the only way I could survive was to leave. And I ended up having a conversation with my grandmother. And I looked at her and I actually said, I don't think I'm going to make another two years of this. I didn't think I could survive waiting to get to a place that I could start hormones. I was like, I don't think I'd come to the conclusion that if I had to wait another two years, I would have probably killed myself. I just would have. Because it was so painful every day, having people that couldn't look at you for who you were, having people that were making assumptions. And gender is something that dictates every interaction that you have with another person every single day. And so every interaction that I had with another person was just painful.

Because they weren't seeing you?

No, they could not see beyond what they perceived as my gender to see who I actually and it starts with little things, with way staff and stuff, but it's always like, have a nice day, ma'am. Have a nice whatever. And it's like, do you know how often people say ma'am in the south? Like, yes, ma'am. No, ma'am. Thank you, ma'am.

And it's like, death by a thousand pin pricks.

Absolutely. Like, every single time I heard that, it felt like a gut punch.

When Vaniel confessed to their grandmother that they were suicidal, she responded with love.

She was very much, like, trying to meet me where I was at at that point. I don't think that she understood how serious it was until that point. And I think that that was also kind of like a wake up call to her of being like, oh, my God, this is real. And immediately after, she put a lot of effort into helping and supporting me and doing just whatever I needed. And that literally included moving in with her for, like, three years.

Yeah. Thank God for Vaniel's grandmother. Seriously. Studies show a supportive adult can literally be life saving to LGBTQ plus youth. Vaniel transferred high schools at age 16 and moved to a bigger, more liberal town in Arkansas. They were now in a place that offered gender affirming health care for trans youth. But Vaniel had to jump through hoops to get it, including seeing a therapist and getting a letter of recommendation. It meant months and months of waiting.

I was already outliving as a man. I was socially recognized as a man. I had already hit all the milestones that are necessary. So that just felt like kind of useless.

More waiting, more requirements. Another therapist letter from a second therapist. Vaniel had to undergo a psychological evaluation at the hospital. So did their mom and grandmother. Yeah, grandma too. When Vaniel finally got on testosterone, they felt better.

My mood and things started improving, like, just knowing that I was able to get it, that the weight was over, that the end results were in sight.

Next came top surgery or a double mastectomy. Vaniel got the surgery right before starting their freshman year at Rhodes College. They were 18. Six months later, they had a radical hysterectomy. People have called Vaniel's transition fast, but Vaniel pushes back on that characterization.

I've already waited so much time. It doesn't feel fast because I've already put, like, yes, my voice changed in the six months from July to December, but my voice could have already had been changed if I didn't have that six month waiting period at the hospital.

Right.

Like, I could have been seeing changes a lot sooner. And with those changes came a lot of just, like, relief and joy for me. So I felt like I had to wait for happiness. Like, I had to wait in order to get to the same level of comfort with myself that most people are just automatically given at birth.

Since transitioning, Vaniel is happier, and it shows. They say their grandmother sees it.

She said that she didn't think she'd ever seen me laugh genuinely before, like, before hormones and before surgery. I was so afraid to take up space in a room because the more space I shake up, the more I'm going to get noticed. And the more I get noticed, the more I'm recognized for someone who I'm not. She said after I had gotten surgery and I was able to present myself the way that I wanted to, that I was able to be recognized and seen the way that I wanted to. She was like, that's the first time I've actually heard you fully laugh and talk to my friends and have fun and be carefree and not have so much worry and anxiety that's holding me back.

Right. It's that word, carefree. Right. You found that ability to be carefree.

Yeah, it's like, I can take up.

Space, and that's what so many queer and trans teens need. The allowance the permission, the comfort to take up space. Vaniel no longer sees escaping as the solution like they once did, like the youth group teens do. Despite the terrible laws, Vaniel has no plans to permanently leave the south.

There's a very strong rhetoric of queer flight from the south and that the south will never accept you. You have to leave the south or whatever. And, I mean, I had the same feelings when I was in the very small town that I grew up in. But if every queer person leaves, it never has the chance to get better, because you don't have the queer people fighting to make it better for trans.

Teens who are struggling, like those at the Out Memphis youth group, daniel says, hold on. It will get better.

Having actually experienced those hard years, if you're looking at survival, do whatever you've got to do to make it to the next day and just wait until you can make it to 18, because when you make it there, it'll be okay.

You'll be okay if you can find the social support until the medical support is possible.

And that social support goes, like, a long way. Being socially recognized for who you are can also start to tear away some of those walls that you're building up. So I would definitely just say focus on the people around you who are supportive of you. Focus on the ones who are going to step up when someone misgenders you, and focus on making sure that you have that group of people, someone to.

Step up when you're being misgendered, someone who's got your back. Someone like Coy. Back at the LGBTQ plus youth group at Out Memphis, coy and Charlote talk about how Charlote's been trying to socially transition and what that means, like the.

Pronouns, the name and stuff like that, making it public. Yeah, I've been trying at my school.

Trying to get people to recognize her gender identity.

Nobody cared.

Well, I mean, it is moody teenagers.

Yeah. They still yeah, they just kept going on, just calling me a he, the dead name and all that.

Yeah.

Well, I've told you many times, I have sharp teeth. I have sharp teeth, and human bites are one of the most dangerous bites in the world.

That's it. Speaking of human bites, new Yorkers are more likely to bite someone than sharks.

Oh, that makes sense. That checks out.

Thank God. I love them. I love them so much.

Is that true about New Yorkers? I know. Bite.

Oh, my God, I love their rapport. Yeah, it's also we got to acknowledge that joy that we feel, and just listening to them is coming from an intense place between the two of them, for sure. Yeah. And this idea of social transitioning, we've been talking about what do you do about the lawmakers or what do you do with your family, but what do you do when you got to go to 9th grade.

What do you do when your teacher won't acknowledge who you really are, calls you by your dead name? Then what? When the person of authority in the room won't even give you the respect that you deserve? It can be very intimidating to stand up for yourself multiple times a day.

Multiple times a week, and we're saying, Keep going. Hang on. It will get better. And that's the promise we have to deliver on, right?

I love that you just said that.

Right?

We do. We have to deliver on the promise that the world can be a better place.

Yes. A better place where these teens deserve the opportunity to live with the freedom and euphoria you can hear in Daniel's voice. We can help them get there. We are early enough in this fight to create a world where trans and LGBTQ folks feel safe and embraced. We watched for too long as abortion rights were incrementally chipped away. Roe was hollowed out, one petty legislative victory at a time until it was no more. All along, there were people raising the alarm, seeing the long game. But not enough. Lawmakers were willing to take a bold stance to fight for reproductive justice. Now, the far right, they're pulling out the same playbook on trans rights. But we don't have to repeat our mistakes. Instead of taking the bait and fueling division, we can unapologetically rally for our rights. Because together, there's really no stopping us.

Next week on The Defenders, I get to talk to writer Rebecca Traister. We'll discuss why talking about access to abortion can be a winning issue across the political spectrum.

The numbers are sky high in support of abortion rights and access, and that.

Is clearly not just Democratic voters. And we talk about why some progressives are still afraid to even use the word abortion. Oh, my God, people get over it. It's just a word I was hearing everywhere.

Like, these guys shouldn't be focusing on abortion. Shouldn't be focusing on abortion. And they insisted. And they won by a big margin.

That's next week on The Defenders.

There's more of The Defenders with Lemonada Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content like extended interviews with organizers, abortion providers, and experts. Subscribe now in Apple podcasts.

The Defenders is a production of Lemonade media.

We're your hosts, Gloria Riviera and Samantha B. Muna Danish is our supervising producer.

Lisa Foo is our producer.

Isara Acez and Toni Williams are our associate producers.

Ivan Karayev and Natasha Jacobs are our audio engineers.

Music by Hannah Brown with additional music by Natasha Jacobs.

Story editing by Jackie Danziger. Our VP of narrative content fact checking by naomi barr. Executive producers are Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Whittleswax.

This series is supported by Charles and Lyn. Schusterman Family Philanthropies, the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation and Levi Strauss Foundation.

Follow The Defenders wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon music with your prime membership. Hey, listeners, I'm here today to tell you about Lemonade Media's newest limited podcast series called Declined. This ten part series takes you through the journey of two exceptional women from incarceration to freedom, ultimately leading to the creation of the Returning Artists Guild, an organization that uplifts the artwork of currently and formerly incarcerated artists across the country. Call declined premieres November 27. Wherever you get your podcasts.

What's up, everyone? I'm Delaney Fisher, comedian and serial entrepreneur.

And I'm Kelsey Cook, comedian. And I swear this is real. A world champion foosball player on our.

Podcast, Self Helpless, we dig into everything from heartbreak to career burnout, to the wild stories from our twenty s and the many anxieties we've experienced along the way.

We're often joined by guests who range from celebrities to renowned health experts.

And together we'll unpack big topics like deciding whether or not we want kids, building your dream career, strengthening self trust, and much, much more.

So join us every Monday for an unfiltered entertaining and honest conversation with friends where you don't even have to leave your house if you're not wearing pants.

We will never know. That's right. So listen to Self Helpless wherever you get your podcasts.