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[00:00:00]

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[00:00:20]

Missing this and that didn't materialize, I think, both poorly and probably not to each other. And Cathars, what next? And get this, the all new OTV sports up off the ball. Ireland's premier sports channel now has a new home featuring the biggest names in Irish World Sports podcast, interviews, news, commentary, analysis, plus almost 20 years of sporting archives all free and ready when you are at home or on the go the new TV sports and download it now from the App Store and Google Play, the OTB podcast network.

[00:01:06]

And then mind things and talking about facts. I always said if I was on the show, ever more questions like religious politics, health and sexual problems. Look at. Never done anything to justify that, you know, despite the suggestion Shotokan consumer. So it all started with a friend who lived in the zoo. It ended with Paul Gascoigne bringing in an ostrich to down training. Who else but Paul Gascoigne could do that? I meant to call and welcome along to Team three.

[00:01:47]

Tonight, we are going to be talking about Paul Gascoigne. At last we have gotten to the Gascoine documentary that is available on Netflix. Kornberg and Kieran Bradley are on the line with me as usual. How getting on. I'll call them. I'll start with you because you have the Paul Gascoigne jersey behind you, the Latza one, and you almost have his hair as well, is starting to get more curves every single week. Yeah, his hair was more kind of an Afro perm look, wasn't it the late 80s that Newcastle United?

[00:02:15]

I like if I get into perm status, that's a whole new opening for me. So that's. That's a goal for the rest of the year. It was like a perm mullet and apparently mullet are coming back. So you could be could be halfway there. Yeah, exactly. I mean, and that was one of the many inspirations of this documentary.

[00:02:33]

Karen, you've been called Tommy Tiernan on the show. You've got to work hard on your. So, like, I mean, are you going to. Is it too late for you to start planting the seeds and get some Paul Gascoigne in 1980 here shows us, you know, Best Buy.

[00:02:48]

It looks exactly like it. So every time I was watching a documentary, it popped up with those little chubby faced, reminded me of him. But now we're talking to him and unfortunately, my doppelganger. So I've been told actually by the man himself when I bumped into him and thought it was so funny, so sure. Yeah.

[00:03:07]

You're a fan of that, right? We'll get into this documentary because it is one of the best ones on Netflix at the minute. There aren't many good football documentaries on Netflix as a whole. So this is it's nice to actually be able to sit down and watch this at ease when you just turn on Netflix. And we've been chatting about this for the last couple of weeks. And he came up in the Bobby Robson documentary. It comes up time and time again when you're talking about English football.

[00:03:32]

Paul Gascoigne is a name that really defines this era of English football.

[00:03:37]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, you just have to say his nickname alone. And it conjures up a raft of memories for millions of people, not just in England or the UK, but around the world. And this documentary by Jane Preston. As I was saying, I sort of think we're discussing just before we started recording, it's a brilliant overview of Gascoigne, the player and the man during his career. But, you know, when you know guys a bit more from his story, you want more and more.

[00:04:07]

And I would have loved if it was more detailed about certain parts of his career. Like I'm endlessly fascinated by your three years, Latza, when Syria was the best league in the world and that he stood out in the brief occasions that he was faced and what made him so special at Newcastle coming through? I made a world class at Tottenham Hotspur would be great to see. But this is more about the life of Paul Gascoigne. And for every story about the ostrich prank that you've already alluded to, end and the van prank does it spa's which would probably talk about and there's a legendary prank.

[00:04:39]

He doesn't go out. And Geordie Reynders vowing to fish in his car for all of for all of those brilliant anecdotes. There's also the tragedy in the fact that he was involved in a really tragic incident at a very young age, 10 years of age, babysitting an eight year old who tragically dies and then telling a kid who had asthma that he's OK to play football and the kid died from an asthma attack. It's stuff that just really followed him around.

[00:05:03]

And he's clearly still in so much pain. And this comment was made in twenty fifteen. But to this day, he carries so much emotional baggage and scars from these events in his life. But still, he so beloved by so many. And that's why he's he's endlessly fascinating. Yeah.

[00:05:18]

Look, as someone who has a bit of skin in the game when it comes to Scottish football, Paul Gascoigne isn't exactly the most liked figure in Scotland when it comes to Celtic fans. And I probably shouldn't like him, but I do because he's so vulnerable and not sense.

[00:05:33]

I will discuss later on why he's actually not liked, because most people know the story. I read about the pipe celebration, but I just want to focus on the football for no just in this segment because his his life is endlessly tragic when it comes to it. But on the pitch, Keron, this guy was easily one of the best midfielders in the world at that point, if not the best. Yeah, he was absolutely outstanding and it's interesting that we kind of have a contrast between his life and football, because I remember someone intimating that most of the week footballers are seeing that 90 minutes is their job, whereas gossip.

[00:06:13]

So is kind of free time, his time to express himself. It's time to show his extraordinary talent. And he was absolutely superb. And it was obviously crystallised Italia 90, where he was on the world stage. And just he plays in a manner that you would see some of that we said about Wayne Rooney in the past coming down the pike. I mean, he's just the joys all across his face. And he is he just barrels through the fences.

[00:06:40]

He's got an incredible skill. He loves the confrontation. And he kind of he deals with it with a bit of humour on the pitch. But no no lack of professionalism. He his emotions are always so close to the surface, both in life and in sport. And I thought I was thinking about this last night. I really think that what we see in Gaza is something we kind of like to see and also be able to express a little bit more like our vulnerability, our joy, our misery, whatever it might be.

[00:07:13]

And so he was not only one of the best contributors in the world, he was a real totem for not only England, but also for the worldwide football. Yeah.

[00:07:23]

So, Colum, you mentioned earlier on that you might have wanted to see a little bit more football in this, and it is a good balance in the documentary. And but what do you what do you make of Wayne Rooney is a couple of appearances in this?

[00:07:39]

I didn't expect that question there.

[00:07:43]

What do you mean? Like, I thought they were they were nice. I mean, he clearly loves them. And the fact that he's I think Rooney said at the end for me, he's by far the best thing this player ever. And whether the the FA Cup semi-final goal, that free kick against the in 1991, which I think is short, I counted five times in a documentary. Rooney, he says, is the best F.A. Cup goal ever.

[00:08:07]

I enjoyed it, I mean, it's funny because, you know, in the last two documentaries you've discussed the necklace, American Bobby, Rob Simmons, they have a huge number. I mean, they pretty much of a starting lebon of world class contributors. And Gaza has three, I think predominately, isn't it? It's Rudy Giuliani, Meridien, Gary Lineker. So you get to see Rudy pop up. I thought it was more interesting that Marineo would love him so much, but I didn't I, I can't imagine Ringo tolerating it as a player.

[00:08:34]

Bush Rudy. It doesn't surprise me that much. Why? What to you? What did you think?

[00:08:40]

I don't know if anybody has been reading his pieces for the Times over the last couple of weeks, but all I'm saying is it's a good thing he went into the written word as opposed to that. I think it was the least amount of insight to a person that you could have possibly had. Like there's probably there must be an inference about a lot of people that could give more insight into Paul Gascoigne than Wayne Rooney, like Wayne Rooney.

[00:09:05]

It wasn't that I know he has the stature, but he never said Wayne Rooney, you if you if you have Wayne Rooney and offer, you bring him in. This is five years ago to his Manchester United in England, Captain. So you you include him in the documentary. It's going to get more viewers. I also think that he I think he's kind of like me insofar as he was attached to young realism, because I like in his proper pomp.

[00:09:28]

I mean, you know, you're kind of going towards your 96 where is really going to probably make an impression on him. So I suspect that he's watched back a few of the clips beforehand and just sort of, you know, some of the key things. And obviously he's got off his time. Arvidson as well, where I'm sure he's going to be starstruck when he's coming through those while, you know, 11, 12, 13 years old and and guys that are giving him 40 credits, which probably still is.

[00:09:52]

Yeah, well, I mean, people don't pay their debts. Just ask Alex Ferguson's brother, Martin, who's still holding a grudge for a couple of pints that they bought in Eastern Europe and one of the one of his early days. So I think Ferguson is actually someone who features fatuousness as well, because as people know, there is a famous agreement between Alex Ferguson and Gaza to say for Manchester United from Newcastle United, but instead choose to go to Spurs.

[00:10:20]

Karen, your thoughts on Paul Gascoigne turn into a completely different player if it goes from United One. Going to say that where I could not say, but known for being a little bit loose when it came to the awful activities. Well, I think that Ferguson has a knack for seeing Maverick and, you know, kind of creative genius and sort of letting it flow. So if you look at the likes of Canción on Cristiano Ronaldo, those types of players, he doesn't really interfere with them.

[00:10:51]

It gives him a little bit more leeway and a little bit more kind of, you know, a bit less of a tight leash. I think the thing that's always bandied around with Ferguson when it comes to Gaza is, you know, would his off field activities have changed? No one really knows, obviously, but I suspect it would have ended probably pretty badly. Gaza's kind of wounds in that respect to so deep that I don't think even with the sort of managerial genius that you have in Ferguson, it would make much of a difference.

[00:11:24]

And, you know, I would have absolutely loved to have seen much united, but I think, you know, he's got an unusual career path. And I quite like I think that's the sort of esoteric feeling around scoring. So the way it panned out, I think, for me was was good enough.

[00:11:41]

And I don't mean to sound as if I'm putting down how good Gascoigne was or how good Glenn Hoddle was, for example, or Gary Lineker for it, for all of those in their own right were exceptional talents.

[00:11:56]

But for me, I don't think Gazza would have stood out as much for Man United as he would have gone to for Tottenham at that stage. We'll will never know, like, I mean, he might have because United lacked a lot of creativity at that time. I mean, that was the reason that Fergie took a chance and there were no one else one time because they lacked creativity. They had Brian McLaren, Marcuse, and they needed something else, a bit of spark.

[00:12:23]

And I mean, Gascoine was the best young midfielder in the country. And when United tried to save him from Newcastle in the late eighties after he finished fourth and the the reckoning in nineteen ninety, so he'd be worked upon, like whether he would have stood out and have been as indulged as he was by Terry Venables at Spurs. Probably not, but as Kieran's already said, like Ferguson, love the maverick Solanas. The Maverick adhered to Ferguson's very strict rules.

[00:12:53]

And that would be the question for me. He would stand out in the pitch whether Fergie would be able to. Tourism is probably the biggest question and the one kind of reassuring element for United fans. When we did lose out on Gascoigne playing for the club is that well, maybe he wouldn't have ever got on and off with Fergie for him to have been there for any considerable period of time. Yeah, well, I suppose if you look at.

[00:13:17]

Alex Ferguson's way of dealing with the likes, Cantona probably would have been able to handle Gascoine, I'm not sure if he would have given them as much reason as other managers would have, given that he went to Titelman and by the way, that Bobby Robson traded them at England as well. The tournament is an interesting one. It's a good part of this documentary. I thought when you're getting an insight both to his training, Kiran, and how he kind of.

[00:13:50]

Slotted in so well and was not only because of his exceptional talent on the field, off the field, just being able to make people laugh helped Tottenham to him on the way to their victory. Yeah, it didn't harm it. Absolutely, and I think my mind always goes back to what Bobby Robson says about about Gascoine, where he says, you know, you've got to give him A round the B, you've got to give him a hug and you've got to treat him a little bit differently.

[00:14:21]

And I think I think people get on to Ghazi's Waveland's he kind of drugs and they want to or not like it's hard it is hard not to love to be around him. I mean, even if you just saw this bit in the documentary, hard to go away from for. But when he's talking about talking with the Rangers players just after that, you're not sure. And he's given them stick and then they're all given and, you know, putting his hat down and stuff like that.

[00:14:49]

So he brings out the mischievous side and everyone nothing. But that's no bad thing. But I think, you know, it would be to do down in the fact that he's an utterly mercurial talent and he's just he was mesmerizing to watch. And he did he did things that, you know, central midfielders don't tend didn't tend to do in that manner, like he would just barrel through defenses. It's the kind of thing when with guys like each, he has this such upper body strength.

[00:15:20]

And the lads in the documentary talking about Rooney and talking about how he kind of uses his arms to keep people away from him without getting booked all the time. And, you know, it was absolutely brilliant. I'm sure is it's fun to watch that in a period where they were not especially successful, but they did actually have kind of mercurial talents of their own in the past several years. And so he kind of fit it into a mould in Tottenham in the same way that he probably would have done it.

[00:15:48]

Manchester United as well.

[00:15:50]

Call him. You've got the lateral jersey behind you. It's not something that features massively in this when it comes to Gascoigne's career, essentially just covers the crazy parts of Glasgow where the fans were following him around all the time. That happens. It happened Madonna and it happened Gascoine as well. And it's just something that he found incredibly tough to deal with.

[00:16:12]

Yeah, there's actually there's a great documentary. I think it's available on YouTube of specifically guys, this time with Lazio. And he has it's basically an extended interview with James Richardson, the former head of Football Italia presenter. And then it's well worth watching. The I mean, the lateral transfer and subsequent madness is so interesting to me, especially because the fee had been agreed between Mazzeo and Spurs for a long time. And then, of course, the infamous injury in the Cup final in ninety one curtailed the move.

[00:16:45]

I think it delayed it by six months. And then three days before he was due back to full training with Spurs, he goes back up to Newcastle, has a night out and gets attacked in a nightclub. And then it's a further was it eight months out and that he'll still maintain patience. And I think they paid a record fee to get him in. And he's only there for three years and it's full of injury. But when he plays when he did play, he was fantastic.

[00:17:15]

There's a gold against Buska, but it's not a documentary. He runs half the pitch. In fact, the only goal that I can think of, what is too close is the header in the wrong derby, which made him an all time hero. Lazio and then there's a goal against Syria where he claims that he and Diego Maradona, who was playing for city of that night, were both severely inebriated, playing the match. And guys are still around the pitch and around half the pitch after the Vietnam and put into the bottom corner, which he found very funny telling back.

[00:17:43]

And I guess the madness of last year kind of encapsulates the life of Paul Gascoigne at that point. I think I'm so interested by that particular period of time. And also the fact that I really like his last great moment in football was that called in Scotland, the euro. Ninety six. And he's only twenty nine then. Yeah, and you see it a lot with players of this generation, especially ones like in the burn out so quickly, and I suppose that's sort of what we think of when we think of mavericks of the game.

[00:18:15]

The likes of George Best Gascoigne is definitely a maverick in that sense, that even though he was so exceptional for so long and on such a high, high stage, he did it at the World Cup, he did it everywhere he went. There's still the question of had he not had the injuries, had he not had the problems, would he have achieved much more in his life, Carol? Yeah, well, I mean, when you mentioned Bass there and I was thinking we talk about that kind of material and stuff, they have not only problems, I mean, they're chronic alcoholics and substance abuse as well.

[00:18:52]

And that has the obvious impact on not only the physical body, but the mind as well. And like, it's funny, you mention something that just around the second injury in the Newcastle nightclub and the way the documentary set up is it kind of like all he talks about and cuts away and then kind of goes July 1992, let's go somewhere. And we just go, well, what happened in that six months talked about what happened in that six months?

[00:19:18]

Because we know he had to sit there for three months alone with his legs straight. So we know that he's going to go into booze and who knows what else. And so I think this is the one kind of downside and area of the documentary is that it doesn't really go too far into the alcoholism and and also the domestic violence, domestic violence, abusers and charges. So, again, it's very interesting. I but just going back, I think you can actually make a documentary and hopefully looking to do so.

[00:19:54]

But this movie now brings in stuff like the alcoholism and the substance abuse and the domestic violence. And it doesn't necessarily make us a an unlikeable figure because, I mean, we've talked about already we will talk about the tragedies and the childhoods. You've got that pushing in from below and you've got all this unbelievable pressure from the from the press and from the public. And then you're literally pouring alcohol on top of it. So this is a man who has gone through things that would make everyone's hair out and it doesn't necessarily make him in any way dislikable.

[00:20:35]

I just it was it was a point within documentaries suppose that it just left me a little bit cold. And I think I could have done with a little bit more elaboration. Yeah.

[00:20:42]

And we do obviously want to talk about all those, but we do have to take a short break. If you want to get in touch with the show tonight. Texas on five three, one, two, six, or you can tweet us athame thirty three. That's all spelled out in words. And let us know what you think of Paul Gascoigne and your memories and just your thoughts on him as well. Stay tuned.

[00:21:01]

You know, I'm a football man. Cubans are on Monday. No jobs. No, no. Sorry, I'm afraid.

[00:21:05]

Want to know what you are you a boxer shorts man?

[00:21:12]

And what are your thoughts on telling my wife's name to buy me his boxer shorts or pants because I don't wear any guns during the day that doesn't wear pants either. I think I know a lot of people don't get time to do a big deal. Oh, no. You know, I'm a football man. Do work out of the canoe. We found what they still don't wear pants. Still don't wear pants. What are you.

[00:21:41]

Boxer said it's getting hot. I welcome back to Team thirty three.

[00:21:46]

So we are discussing the Paul Gascoigne documentary. Karen Bradley on Kahlenberg are on the line with us. Remember you can Texas on five three one of six. If you want to get in touch with the show or you can tweet us Artim three three and you can also podcast this on the TV sports app now available and the Google Apps or play store as well. So, Kiran, you mentioned it before the break and it's something that we can't ignore when we're talking about the Paul Gascoigne story.

[00:22:13]

He's a man that is deeply damaged by things that have happened in his career. There are parts of his life that are that he will want to forget for various different reasons, some of his own wrongdoings, also some that were completely unavoidable. The first one, this isn't really dealt with too much in the documentary overall, the alcoholism, the substance abuse. But one thing that they do talk about is the first moment of Gascoine dealing with death, and that is 10 years old when he's babysitting or taking his friend's little brother to a football match.

[00:22:52]

And he is hit by an ice cream truck and killed on the spot. And he couldn't get away from the fact that it was his. He blamed himself for that.

[00:23:03]

I can't think of a more traumatic experience that a human being, let alone a 10 year old child, could go through than this. Having a child die in your arms after an accident, in your mind, you caused to some degree, is just the most psychologically damaging thing that could ever happen to somebody. And I was thinking about this when I was sort of thinking about the fact that the stuff that Mastec violence and things like that, I'm someone close to my family as a psychotherapist.

[00:23:32]

That is obviously a lot of that has to do with childhood and the kind of psychological. That's cause then, like you, you're starting from 10 steps back in any way of, like, socializing yourself properly. So it's absolutely no surprise that gas is not only drinking socially, but I mean, he says in the documentary himself that he's drinking at home and it gets dark and depressed and in a hole. And I think it's what Russell Brand actually on.

[00:24:06]

So I'm I think a few days back, kind of hot that was sitting next to Gaza. And I think he put it better than I had anyone talk about it, because he was that he kind of has this that he's cracked. But, like, that's that's where his genius shines through. And I think Gaza fits into this kind of over kind of damage to troubled creative geniuses or whatever you want to call it. And like I mean, it is unbelievably harrowing listening to it.

[00:24:36]

And it was interesting because he immediately kind of talks about going into therapy. And then he says, I know I was with the therapist very early on and then he has a little smile at himself. And I was like, that's kind of how he deals with it with other people. Like, he makes a little bit of a sense of humor. So he makes a joke of his vulnerability. But it's ultimately so endearing and it's just so awful seeing someone deal with something like that.

[00:25:01]

And just you have this utter hopelessness and there's nothing you can do about it. The fact I mean, he's talking so I don't mean to ramble on, but when he's talking about being awake and being without sleep three days, sitting next to his coffin and to the point where the boy who's passed away, his brother comes in and says, Paul, you know, it's all right, so I'll be right. So let's have the tables turned in that situation where someone who's grieving is is, you know, helping his friend was was really touching as well.

[00:25:30]

It's just unbelievably difficult and illuminating. Watch. And it really set the scene for the majority of the rest of his life. And it's it's unbelievable to me. Yeah. Call him that bit about the setting in the room for three days after the kids death with his coffin. That really hit home for me. Oh, it's unbelievable. I mean, I knew the story about the death and how it happened, but I actually had forgotten about that story until I watched the documentary last night.

[00:26:03]

I think here and I set the scene at the same number of times, things about three times. But I had forgotten about that, which is just like that's equally as damaging long term for your mental health as the actual incident itself. And I think the ASPO one, too, know that's terrible because he he was just doing good by what he thought, by advising the young people like everybody else of you can't just be careful and then put out date the young person date.

[00:26:32]

But it's terrible. And I guess that's why I mean, I don't know what the question is. Was he born that way anyway? Even if he had a really comfortable and lovely and incident free upbringing, would he still have turned out to have the issues that he did? But he said he did develop a twitch in the aftermath of that tragedy with the babysitting incident, and his sister would mock them over it and that would increase the amount of twitching he did.

[00:26:58]

And so I suppose that was circumstantial, but I guess it was developing in Gaza was he became a man of contrasts. I mean, you know, in March nineteen ninety seven, his wife filed for divorce, citing domestic abuse. And, you know, there's the imaginary Flude celebration as Rangers' debut against Bucharest. And he did it again. He did it in January 1998, just before he left the club when he scored again. So in the documentary says that, like, I learned my lesson, I was never going to do that again because I was receiving death threats from the IRA for six months after the initial incident.

[00:27:33]

But he did it again. But then there's the other side of him where he would regularly leave massive tapes and news agents like 50 pounds or a hundred pounds to to give kids sweets. And there's a story that the Rangers players would go to to hospital at Christmas time, like so many footballers do. And he was speaking to one kid who wasn't going to get home for Christmas. And he asked him, have you written your letter to Santa? And the kid said, no.

[00:27:59]

So, guys, I set that with them and wrote the letter with the kids and then went out and bought all the presents that he put in the list. So unbelievably kind and lovely person who who was really flawed. And, you know, and I guess he is he is all of us. He is every man, but he's even more than most people in terms of his vulnerability. And most people are some sort of filter or some sort of defense mechanism.

[00:28:27]

And he doesn't appear to have any, which is probably what made him such good football. I mean, he says in the documentary that the only time he really felt free, especially when the press started invading his life, which pretty much happened from autumn 1990 to the present day. And the only time he felt free was the pitch, which is when Goldmacher says he was never afraid to try anything because the easiest part of his life was football, even at the highest level.

[00:28:52]

Yeah.

[00:28:52]

And throughout his career, there's multiple instances like it. And 2004, his book came out his autobiography, and he spoke about his struggles with he had OCD, he had bulimia, he had depression. He had Tourette's multiple, multiple mental health issues that weren't dealt with and certainly weren't helped by alcoholism. Karen, which you've spoken about at something with this period of footballers, many people have come out and spoke from that generation, from the early nineties, late 80s, early 90s, generation of footballers struggle with alcoholism throughout their career and didn't get any help.

[00:29:36]

Just, yeah, certainly fits into that mold. It was such a heavy drinking culture and so much more latte than I suppose we would have now in general. And it reminded me actually of when medicine was. So I can't think in his autobiography about when Tony Adams stood up in front of the in front of the awesome dressing room, said, look, I'm an alcoholic. And it obviously crashed his car and been through many scrapes along the way a mess and said that he thought or I think he said out loud.

[00:30:13]

Well, if you're an alcoholic, what am I? And he was an alcoholic as well. It's just that, like it's kind of it was hidden in plain sight because everyone was such a heavy drinking kind of people. And, you know, Carolyn being kind of front and center in this documentary made me think that Gary Lineker was one of the cleaner living footballers by that standard, by those standards, whereas now it wouldn't particularly stand out and possibly be kind of further down the queue in terms of healthy living.

[00:30:46]

But it was it was in a way, it was a double edged sword for guys because like it was it was socialized in ways that is best. That was you know, he had good friends like I mean, he talks about Vinnie Jones in the documentary, sort of about, you know, Carolyn can have almost any number of other players out, of course. And I was very close because it's so there were people looking at or rather there are people looking at it from now on.

[00:31:10]

I'm sure that they enjoyed the socializing element of gossip, but also they recognize the vulnerability. Bobby Robson as well, obviously, as we spoke about in his documentary, Gaza, would say that people come up to him in the street and say, you know, how are you doing? And I was like, Bobby sent you. And there's one offshoot to that just wanted to touch on. I was talking about the phone hacking scandal with News of the World.

[00:31:36]

And he and he is having phone calls with only his mom about a subject and only his dad. And he's in a bad state and he's drinking too much and he's doing too much coke and stuff like that.

[00:31:49]

And he and these stories get into the press and it sets off his paranoia, paranoia, which ultimately ends up getting sections like you don't really need to elaborate on how abhorrent a situation that was, but just trying to get yourself into the mind of someone like Garza who is vulnerable enough, as we've said in a number of times, but is convinced that his phone is being hacked and is sectioned under the Mental Health Act because he's making these paranoid accusations and comments.

[00:32:23]

And I mean, when you have that kind of pressure on you, it's no wonder that he went off the rails, things that they did. It's not excusing all of his actions, of course, but it's just it was a hard situation for him to be grown up in and coming of age as a footballer.

[00:32:40]

You know what? I'm sorry, John, I'm interested in just wondering is he has such a big support network around him and people look after him and care for him. Pretty much every team he played for looks out for him in some way these days. Do you think people think that he would have would still have that support network if he wasn't such a great player? Because he he provided so many great memories on the pitch, I think so, again, it's hard to know.

[00:33:10]

I like there are so many players from that generation that have had issues and have come out and have been abandoned by the authorities. So I mean it just of help them. In some ways they've tried and they just haven't been successful in the sense. But I would probably agree. There definitely would be a sense of that anyway. I don't know if you think you're.

[00:33:37]

Yeah, I mean, I think that in general, across the board, you have a certain kind of concentric circles of friends, you would have your close friends that would be looking out for you regardless. And I think that the fact that he probably he got to know a lot of these people through who they were probably in a similar situation, i.e. that they were famous and stuff themselves was not necessarily a stark contrast. He's an excellent player. I think he has this obvious charm about I mean, yes, it's obvious ability to kind of, you know, work is right.

[00:34:12]

That really is, to be honest with you. I said earlier that there are people looking out for him now. You know, it would be interesting to get Ghazi's thoughts on exactly how many people that is and who is constantly checking in with him, particularly by the likes of Bobby Robson, his past. So, yeah, it's an interesting question, but obviously I'm not sure of myself.

[00:34:32]

Well, I suppose one to one answer to that is that it was twenty fifteen before Gazzo was actually diagnosed with alcoholism when this documentary came out this year at age thirty three after all of this had happened. And alcoholism is one of these things where it can take over your life in many ways. But I can't see past the role that the News of the World played in all of this, like you said, because you have all of these issues, the underlying issues with the multiple deaths, that he feels that he played a role.

[00:35:10]

And there was also an incident in twenty sixteen with his nephew when his nephew took took his own life as well. And in one way or another, guys are blaming himself for that and also the domestic violence issues with his ex-wife in 2010. But all of this was all combined with the fact that he didn't know if his own life was reality or not because of what was coming out in the papers. And another point in this, I would like to add in sort of the Post documentary phase of this is that the press just haven't learned their lesson from this.

[00:35:47]

There's no evidence that they're still hacking phones. But I do feel in modern day press tabloids, there is still a situation out there where people relish when Paul Gascoigne goes off the rails again, because that's a story for them as well Carol. There's a skirting between total amorality and total morality with I'm going back now with the News of the World, his situation was known by certainly everyone in the press. His alcoholism and substance abuse issues. And yet they continued in this manner.

[00:36:28]

I mean, look, what he said is despicable. It's just the fact that it crystallized in such an awful way that he started questioning his own thoughts, which were obviously he was questioning at every turn anyway. And it's unbelievable, obviously, with the likes of Caroline Flack and the treatment of the tabloid media of certain people in the public eye. And the fallout from the Leveson inquiry has much changed. I'm probably not, to be honest. Ultimately, people know that if the gossip stories in there are viewing it as a kind of with a serious pathos and I hope you get well soon or, you know, a kind of grim, rubbernecking.

[00:37:10]

And, you know, I personally actually went as we were talking about, sort of went to look around my stuff and I couldn't really watch more than 20 or 30 seconds. I know we all probably had some formula around that time. Just so you know. How about is this the one just for you in your kind of moments and just think this is just a total mental breakdown that's happening and the press has to carry a significant portion of the blame for that?

[00:37:38]

Yeah, they definitely do. Come, I do want to finish on a positive note, and Gaza is someone that you can look at in two ways. You can look at as many, many faults. But ultimately, he was an exceptional talent that when you watch him purely on his football, he is an absolute joy to watch. Yeah. And I don't think we're going to see the likes of him again at such a high level of the game.

[00:38:04]

And actually, one of my favorite scenes in the whole documentary, and it's about two seconds long, is they actually saw some build or play by him in the semi-final between Spurs and the ninety one where she swiveled in the middle of the pitch and finds his man. That's what I want to see more because that's how good he was. And yeah, what I really love about him as a player was that despite all the troubles off the field, he was he just felt completely open to express himself honest.

[00:38:30]

And he was so good at doing that, that the best club in the world, Rotherham and the clubs that did acquire him, paid record fees for him, a number of things in a role. And even like Wayne Rooney says that in a in a valid contribution and that Wayne Rooney says even at Everton, you could see his talent, you could see his ability. And that was in the early 2000s when he was way past that. So, oh, like a fabulous player.

[00:38:54]

And I think the reason that we're still talking about him 20 years after he finished playing our nearly 20 years is that I haven't really seen someone similar to him. Do you know, I think you have it with a bit of Jack Wilshere about Jack, which was kind of about 10 years ago when he came through. But even then, quickly, that became apparent that he's an old geezer. And so people saw flashes, but nobody to his level.

[00:39:19]

And so that's why we're still talking about it. That's why he's still relevant. Yeah, but it's not so much what Rooney said, it's just the way that he said it, it was just. Well, I mean, that's the I mean, you can say interesting things. And also, he was the guy in the documentary who said he used his opera body very well.

[00:39:34]

And it was a skill I like. I he's the best. He's the best. I could be certain in this guy. I do also.

[00:39:41]

Rooney is Rooney. So Rooney is the person that I think reminds me most of us or any person since he's got that kind of bullish position. Obviously, we just thought that physique and that just total joy as well as mate without being without being cruel about both of them shared one similarity, and that was their body type. They were they were overweight. So this is what I'm saying.

[00:40:06]

You guys have you guys together was all in his career through it. He just needs to lose a bit of weight and be perfect. You call that what you call it?

[00:40:15]

Upper body strength, I call it. I don't know.

[00:40:17]

It's just hard to shift. They said it to guys in a puppy dog kind of way, but they castigated Rooney. It was the difference. Yeah.

[00:40:26]

Look, she has a similar stature. He's he's also hired to put off the ball. But there's got to be no documentary production in 20 years. No, I don't think so. On a serious note, if you have been affected by anything spoken about in the program today, the Samaritans are available on one one six, one, two, three. That's all we have time for on the show tonight. Thanks for joining us. We'll take a quick break.

[00:40:52]

Hi, I'm Jenny McCarthy and I'm a second generation. I am very proud of the. They're ready for the verbal sparring that you got for me this morning, vial of the. I also asked questions of religious politics, health and sexual problems, and if I haven't, if I have an experience, someone else will do us. So to some people, I think back to Bill.

[00:41:27]

And I said some people can go to jail, but I don't give a flying about this long term. I told you before, did not. It's like. If anybody is not happy right to me, go and get yourself settled. Have you come in the red shirt with a white beard today? Well, come going sit on your lap and ask, does your father.

[00:41:52]

No, I haven't come yet. I just want to show you the Cape is a bit out there. And because there's nothing wrong with it, do you have the physio? He said, no, I'm the head of the medical medicine take Bill. And I said to him, I wanted you to do physiotherapy, something like Heather Mills. And like I said, if I've lost anything, a friend, fellow. I am pleased. I'm pleased I came off tonight and I'm pleased I was pleased that the U.S. is I'm pleased coffee bar across the room and I'm pleased.

[00:42:31]

I feel like I do it now because I know the all feeling still when I goes and the feeling goes. So welcome back to June thirty three, so that is about all we have time for on tonight's show. Thanks for listening. If you want to listen back to any of that show, you can podcast it, as usual on the podcast network available now on the sports app. That's where you can find all of our best team. Three interviews as well.

[00:42:57]

You just search team three in the app on all of the podcasts are there to download. If you want to watch that. Instead, you can find us on YouTube dot com forward slash off the wall. You can see column boogie's here in the flesh and you can also see that beautiful Latino jersey with Gascoine on the back. We will be back again with the Spurs documentary next week. It's Drop It on Amazon Prime. Really excited for that. It does look like it's a little bit polished, but there should be some nice insight into Jose Jose Mourinho season with the club back again in the same place same time.

[00:43:29]

Until then, take away Johan.

[00:44:04]

That was an OTB podcast, network presentations isn't a curious that every member of your family has a different voice, that a baby can recognize their mother's voice from inside the womb, that identical twins have the exact same vocal chords but usually don't sound similar. And teenagers can sense the tone of their dad's voice when he says, I'll think about it even over WhatsApp, I'll think about it.

[00:44:29]

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