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ACost recommends podcast's we love. My name is Finn Dwyer and I make the Irish History podcast. It tells the fascinating stories of our past like you've never heard them before. The show covers over two and a half thousand years of history, covering subjects like Iron Age murders, the Normandy invasion, the famine and starting in 2021, the Irish War of Independence. So if you want to forget about the hardships of the present, lose yourself in the past and check out the Irish History Podcast.


Archives powers the world's best podcasts, including the Dave MacWilliams podcast today. And focus on the one you're listening to right now.


This is the good, the bad and the ugly, I'm the boss of that, no, I'm boss. That sends word if I were going to call myself the boss.


Anyway, look, this podcast is filled with uncensored interviews with experts in particular fields or real life stories from people who have inspiring personal tales to tell. It covers various topics and life stories that I've really dug, you know what I mean? And I think you'll dig them to just say, you know, this podcast is for grownups as it may contain adult themes, sexual references and strong language. Fuck, yeah, I just wanted it, she said.


Ladies and gentlemen, the story you are about to hear. Oh, now wait. I know you're going to dig this. I think the best thing for me to do is to introduce what? What's his name. But why me?


It's not a schwa. Me, it's a schmidly.


Welcome to the good, the bad and the ugly. This is, of course, episode eight. Oh, you know, done your own seat. Don't even need you fuckers like like Episode eight, the finale.


This is the end of season one, right. Is it. Yeah, I think so. I think this is this is it. This is this is a I'm not crying.


You're crying. You're you're crying. See, it's all this one's all about vulnerability and how important that is. I'm very lucky. I have my best friend since I was since I was a kid. Are you like that Janjua. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think what it is, is I've held on to those relationships because those people truly kind of know me, you know what I mean?


They knew me before I was cool, before I was the powerful, successful, sexy older man you see in front of you.


They they knew me when I was just.


Jimmy agrees to that. Well, to be. But they keep me accountable as well. But I've trusted them a lot of the time with some of my most kind of intimate details in my life. And I've I've learned that from being very young. I've always kind of been very open and shared with them. And even though because a lot of them haven't done the same with me and that's OK. That's all right. You know, but I feel sometimes you can kind of clutch this mask and that's what they do.


They wear this mask, especially with men. And they were so fucking tightly that it's kind of rusted on to them. And the thought of even removing it and being vulnerable would be so painful that they'd rather just let some. Toxic roast kind of seep into them, if that makes sense. You know what I mean? That it's hard to be open, you know. And so with that in mind, the importance of vulnerability because it carves out who you are, you know, like these moments in your life that are painful.


My dad left when I was I can't even remember steel. And actually I remember steel and some cards from my dad when I was little. He liked to play poker. Right. And I idolized my dad, like he used to wear fancy suits and he'd bring me to the tailor and get me three suits as a little hat. And I just thought he was the ball. I thought he was the best. And he played cards and he was he had a cool car and all that jazz.


And I remember waking up one night him screaming at me. I was only little and I'd been playing with the cards. I don't know what I don't, but I'd lost some of the cards that was playing poker. I think I was just messing around with them and. And he was going mental, he was going crazy on me, and a couple of days later he left and I didn't see him again for a long time. I thought I had done something, you know, I thought I had messed up in some way.


And then as life goes on and my mom actually helped me through all that. But you realize certain things happen in your life and they define who you become, you know, and to talk about it is vulnerable. And this is the problem. The people have it. You know, it's seen as a weakness and it's not a weakness. You know, it's a superpower. Because otherwise, like, you either let it out or you stuff it down inside you somewhere and Denias.


And that's that's not good. But I have I'm very lucky I have a close group of friends, one or two in particular, who I'm just open with, who I can share with of my sister, my my missus and my best mates. And I can be open like that. But a lot of people just don't they're just terrified. I have friends who are like that. They just can't can't open up about things. And that's why I thought this episode was so important about vulnerability.


You know, and I my guest today is getting older. He's one of the directors of the critically acclaimed feature documentary, The Work. It is The Bomb. It is an awesome movie. It's, um, very loud. I'm a mellow guy, but it's a great movie. It's a game changer. It won the Grand Jury Prize for best documentary at South by Southwest in twenty seventeen at the Audience Award at the Sheffield Doc Fest, again nominated best documentary IPE AFP got them awards and nominated Best Cinema documentary.


And let's listen. The work is set inside a single solitary room in Folsom Prison. If the work follows three men from outside as they participate in a four day group therapy retreat with maximum security convicts and killers. Over the four days, each man goes on what can only be described as a modern day exorcism. It's unbelievable to see, and it highlights the power and the necessity of vulnerability in our society. Adult outside Gotham is also someone I've worked with and has been a pair of mind for over two decades.


And I love him. I love him.


He's great for. Dramatic pause. It's so just so you know, in this episode, there is some talk about sexual abuse and things that might upset some listeners. So just to give you a heads up, some of the content could be a little bit heavier. But, yeah, there you go. Just flagging that this is that shot, Gaétan.


So, listen, you know what I realized today in all my life after traveling, all the places that I've traveled, the name Alder's, I've never come across it. Right. And then there I am watching the living legend that's Russell Brand in and get him to the Greek. And his name is All the Snow. And he encompasses everything I know about you, this sexy, confident individual.


And I was like, that's humor. That's that's that's your dude. So just do so much right to so much. I want to I want to kind of I don't know where to start with you. So start tell me this. What was what was the plan when you left school. What did you what did you want to do. What was what was your ambition.


So let me take a step back. So you just called me a confident, sexy individual. I don't see myself like that.


But you never did. You were the director. And how low can you go? Right. This was my first ever television project. Right. And someone one day just said, do you want to travel around the world and party? And I was like, fuck, yeah, I do. Yeah. So and I went, and it's like that line in, you know, and fight club where at the end he goes, You met me at a very strange time in my life and I lost.


Oh, it was just it was the closest thing to being in a rock band. Honestly, that's what it was like. We just went from town to town and going mental. And the only person quite as mental as the three of us was you. You were filamentous and directness. And I remember it's just I mean, it's probably like kids aside and the misses a lot. It's possibly one of the greatest times in my life. Like it was it was it was just beautiful.


It was a beautiful moment in my life. It was very special. Was a special for you. Did it leave a lasting effect on you? It was incredible, this incredible thing. I think it changed me. What was weird about it is like we did it. We were just like six weeks of the year. And then I wouldn't really hear from you guys until I wasn't involved in the editing. I didn't know the show was doing well and then we'd be up a year later.


I would love the show is like fucking amazing rags. This is Koepka and we were just we were just winging it. It was all, I think we in Australia. And I think I know from my childhood of what it was, but there was something I never really saw myself, and I remember standing in this bar and in Australia and I think I said, you know, women don't really notice me.


And you were just outraged. What did you mean?


I know that woman that he started pointing them all out. And for the next sort of, I don't know, period of time, whenever we walked into someone, you would sort of point out and I was I didn't even know the I didn't know my power.


Yeah, that's what it is. It's no. In your power. See, that was the problem. I was very aware of the power. I thought age. It's a youthful kind of blind. Like I was saying to someone else recently, if you could bottle touch it, if you could bottle that attitude and and kind of feelings that you have as a young person, you kind of lose it as you get older, you start to date yourself.


But when you're young, you just you just and you were having so much fun. But what I always remember, like at that stage, you were directing us, right? So you were you were a TV director or film director.


But you know how I got the gig.


No, I wasn't. I was hired as a cameraman so that my door was like 10 days old, which means I've known you for 16 years.


So I was like 10 days old. And I was given this gig as a cameraman. And I think you remember there was a guy who was directing his reasoning, the director, who was a bit of a nut job. They basically they fired him sort of halfway through. And I got a call, say, can you direct it as well? And I was like, fuck, yeah, let's do it. Let's do it.


And then they gave me I think they gave me two other ones in that season. I think one of them I was just coming out of something I was directing and I end up just sort of taking over. And then and then they gave me all the rest of them. The last weekend of the last season that we did in Miami was definitely one of the wickets of my life.


Well, we don't have to go into too much detail because I got to know and I have to be careful. But, yeah, it was insane. Like like I remember literally I would finish with you guys and then, like, when we finished in Australia, I took the rest of the year off. So I would just I think I met someone in Australia and then I went travelling in Asia with them and and I got robbed in Cambodia and ended up living in village.


And I was just Voyles kind of I remember I was sleeping on a pool table in a bar, and this guy with a double jersey walked by and he was just like, oh, my God, you're the guy from the you you live like this for real. And I was like, yeah, I'm like, this is it. This is what we do.


And it all just seemed so normal back then. Oh, yeah. That was fun. Wasn't that good fun.


It was fun. It was fun. And the fact that it ended up being in Ireland to mega successful show like crazy ratings and like I came to I can't go out of maybe a year and a half after it finished, I must have been in fucking entourage like it was just like everywhere we went.


You are the guys. The fact that we do it say there was a thing that you and I so relate to.


And I think that's what we've always relate through and always will be, is we were always looking for the deeper thing. So it was always like, yeah, it's got to be funny. It's got to be like has got but there's always got to be a deep scoop to it. And like good comedy is people to have, you know, you sort of, you know, see what life is beneath the surface. And we've always sort of seeking that out in the shows.


And it's not it's something that I've kept in other stuff that I do where when people are emotionally open with laughter, you know, you laugh one minute you're emotionally open, you're expelling certain emotions. And then when you when you hit them with something poignant or something. Now, I'm not sure how poignant, how low can you go was, but you can really connect with people, you know. And I think that was an honest dialogue near like we drive in Paris and I think was in Marseilles or somewhere.


We arrived in Marseilles and they put us in the lowest form of comedy was like stick us in some stupid French outfit with a beret and onions around our neck and just insult everybody. And then Michael would be there the whole time. This was shit and like, no travel show goes, Oh, this place is shit. But there was a certain honesty to someone just really being disgruntled about the place they've been sent on holiday. I'm still going this year.


I don't like it here. No. To me, which I think people connected with because that's what backpacking at that age is. That's what that's what it is. It's just going to places in some places you love, in some places you just won't. But you buy into the friendship. It's that it's felt like you were on the road with these three people or whatever the family was, you know, of course. But I want to go back back from that get so originally was in a music was that was not your bike.




Yeah. So I. I saw it dropped out of school at 17 and then was kind of interviews, I started my own business then, so I had that for like six months selling car telephones. And I had like a midlife crisis at 17.


It's like, oh, I did a fucking you know, I just try to get rich. This is it just sort of hit me. That's not where it's at. And I love playing music. And I thought, you know what? I forgot my music.


Did you study music? Well, what I did was I then spent the next four years busking, travelling whenever I could to make a living as a musician. And eventually I went back to music college. Twenty one seven for four years. Yeah. I was basically musician. I would do sort of odd jobs here, there and everywhere. And I need to get money for a flight somewhere spent like a year in Israel, a few stints or just backpacking around Europe and busking and wake up, you know, wake up in the morning with no money, wake up in the morning with no money, nowhere to stay.


There was four of us when we started this sort of backpacking this busking round Europe thing that I did.


And there was something I learned there, which was some of it was about letting go.


It was like there was I think it was a point in Israel where I gave some of my guitar and my passport and I went to sit on this hill overlooking a lot. And I had nothing like I had no money in the bank. I had no credit card and no house had no part. I had no nothing. And I was sort of 19 or 20 maybe. But then just thinking, I can't go any lower than this and this feels pretty fucking good.


So what is something to something in that I remember has been in been one of the islands in Asia. And, you know, like you have these things to give you security. Maybe it's the car you have or, you know, certain clothes or kicks or trainers or style that you have. And all of a sudden you're in like a pair of shorts and everybody's the same. And you're like, oh, God, I don't have I don't have a chest.


I decided I need to make me acceptable to other people. Like, you just have to. It's raw. You might as well just be there bollock naked, whatever one. And you're like, oh God, they have to like me for me. Just some kind of refreshing in that, if that's the great thing about traveling, isn't it, that I loved it.


I love that was that was a real moment for me. And I sort of felt it felt really empowering. I remember the point when I went back to my friend and sort of took my guitar back from my passport.


I was just like, all right, that that felt like freedom to me because it sort of was freedom of all the things were told to be afraid of is that I'm okay standing with nothing. I don't have a job. I didn't have any way to earn my next bit of money, but I knew it was going to be okay. So there was definitely something really bad happened. And it was weird because then I threw some weird sort of synchronicity.


I met this fucking I met his jazz guitarist. I love him. I met him on the kibbutz. That was him. It's jazz guitarist Mel Gibson. He just blew me away with how he could play. And I was like, oh, my God, I want to do that.


And then he said, oh, if you're ever in Holland, come and visit me. I work at this car boot for the weekend in this town called Liden, and that's all I knew. So then I find myself in Holland sort of six months later after busking around and whatever. And then as I fuck, I want to get a and find this dude. I know where my dad is. Yeah. I arrive at the train station.


I was with this friend of mine, Sharon, and we like let's go this way as we turn right this way and just walk straight into the dude because like, oh, here he is, because I'm supposed to meet him because this was the next and this is when I started to see the magic in the world and how these weird sort of synchronistic events sort of happen.


Every time every time I found myself really letting go, weird universe shit would happen.


But it's not like a manifestations of our nervous, just the way the universe works for you.


It's just the way the universe works. I think you'll get into that because this basically sort of yeah, my life kind of moved in that direction. But I met this guy. We then went back to his apartment. We jammed all afternoon as I'm going to music college. And that's why I made a decision from this deal with synchronistic event to completely give up travellin and go and focus on music for three years. And then when you finish there, what was the crack?


Did you do did you like it? You loved it, obviously.


No, no, I didn't know shit about music. I didn't know that I didn't know anything about music or play. I didn't know anything. I think about three, four was four four.


I didn't know there was a time signatures, but there was this judgement that I felt on everything. Everyone he was playing. If he didn't play it right, you didn't play well enough. You was sort of being judged. You've been judged by the other students. You've been judged by the teachers. And this is something I learned later and I ended up getting tendinitis.


So a year and a half in the first year, I kind of fucked around. I paid a lot. I went back to Israel in the summer. I didn't really commit to this thing. I was going to commit to that. I got back from the summer. Right. I'm going to practice six hours a day. I'm here. I'm here to become a good musician. I'm going to catch up with these motherfuckers. I'm going to practice six hours a day every single day, and I'm going to become a decent musician.


And three months into that, and my plan was just going through the roof. I got tendinitis to one day I woke up, I couldn't play, I couldn't make my left hand to stop work. And I couldn't even open a can of beans. Like I couldn't squeeze a can opener enough after to open. Think to my hand, just not work at that point, music with my life like it was, is how I got laid is how I had money.


It was what I was going to do to make friends.


It was everything I did. I hit by the guitar. I gave me confidence. It gave me gave me power, and it was suddenly gone.


That's a huge part of your identity, right? That's that's that's the guy you are is everything. Yeah. I was a musician who I was and who just overnight was suddenly not there anymore. And it was it was a it was a big sort of soul searching moment. I ended up convincing these guys at a bar one night there was they were doing like 20 pounds return. If you come within 24 hours to take your car across the ferry to Calais back, so I was like, let's jump in the car, we'll drive to Paris, have a few beers on the steps of the Sakurako, I didn't come back and they were in.


But the reason I was doing is because I needed to fucking remember there was a bigger world out there. And I need to remember that feeling of standing in Israel with nothing and knowing it's going to be OK, because as far as I was concerned, life, I didn't have anything anymore in my life as I was going to, you know, it was over.


And so I needed to be reminded of how big an amazing world is. We went out that, yeah, we sat on the steps of the Sacre-Coeur. Had a bottle of wine, I was just I can be OK. Something else is going to happen and just, you know, just be open to the and it's one of the lessons I really learned in life is is I'm still struggling with how to do things in my life.


The other day where I what I'm trying to remember is, is to set a different podcast, go on the guitar is there is to is to set my intention, like really fucking go for things, but let go of the outcome.


But no, it might not go where I think it's going to go and be open to where it is going to go. You I'm saying yeah I get you but that's that's the thing that gets people sometimes they think the success is in, in the end result. Yeah. They think it's worth it. That's where they land. But sometimes that landing, even if that's not where you wanted it to be, that sends you off on a difference when you forget it's all about the bit.


It's not about where you're trying to go. That was the thing I learned from Travie. It's not it's got nothing to do with you trying to go. It's got to do with the journey of getting there.


That's the fucking that's the day, a day of living life and having a rich life and friends and connection and the other things that you might die before you get so, you know, enjoy the journey on the way.


So, yeah. So that was it's a base, I understand, at Music College because I sort of felt like not being able to play, I couldn't play, but I felt I couldn't leave. So I started playing the drums and flew and thinking my house would just get better. But I wasn't doing anything to make it get better.


And what I learnt later and again, this is something that changed my life was a friend of mine also got tendonitis and he couldn't let go of the music like he had to fix it. I wasn't driven to fix it. I could let go of it and see what else was going to come end up going into film, which is my sort of second passion.


But he couldn't let go of it and he ended up finding this young music therapist and his Youngie music therapist said, well, what happens actually is those judgments that people were sort of land on you, land with your own sort of, I don't say broken down, complicated psyche.


And because caused just this little bit of resistance between your brain and your flow in the music and your fingers and that tiny bit of resistance which came from your childhood, wounds from your father, stuff from your mother, stuff from your friends, from your family, from society, from releasing that tiny little bit resistance. That's what we've built up over time and become tendinitis.


So actually, the way to heal it was actually to go back into the past, find out what these blocks are, what your wounds are, maybe your original wound even, and heal that.


And then you can play properly, which was interest the alliance, your parents for up. We all know that is not the truth. That's the fucking treatment, your childhood. It all stems it all.


And even even with the best of intentions, even the best, some people are fucked up, have been over loved.


But, you know, as a parent, you've got like five thousand children.


Like as a parent, you've got you know, you just you just do the best you can and know that they're going to be between. You are in therapy at some point in their life because it's just I had to school my eight year old recently about the tooth fairy.


She got two teeth removed. Right. And a federal ice cream and stuff. And then afterwards, Tony came downstairs and she was like, you know, you know, you need to get changed, put under a pillow. And I was like, Are you fucking kidding me? She's she's ten.


Like, she'll be destroyed. She goes into school and tells people she's she got this off the notes, the book and to freeze over time to school her. So she was distraught, like distraught about it. And she's like, I can't believe you lied to me.


And I was like, hold on, fucking let's put all this in perspective. I didn't fucking just like my father left when I was seven, like, I could get a grip on this. I just lied to you to soothe the pain of being a child with a missing tooth. And then and then I was like, look, I'll buy you out. I'll buy your teeth out of you, you know? And I had to and I was like, like twenty years.


She's like a thousand. I kiss my fucking arse. But put it is all that it is all that relation. It's like I'm doing a lot of stuff at the moment. Right. And it's it's all childhood man. It's all yeah. It's all childhood. It's all back to childhood, you know. You know, I'm going to jump all over the place. Just, you know, the work for anyone who doesn't know what the work is.


The work is a documentary. I end up helping to get made about this and perhaps get married. I was like, basically they they shot this footage inside Folsom Prison about six years before I found out about it.


And it was about these I say this sort of therapy weekends.


But that is a very loose term for it, like the like fucking exorcism. This organization called the Mankind Project, which Mankind Mankind Project.


In fact, this is a good little way, actually. So the guy that I mentioned earlier who got tendinitis and wouldn't let it go and then found the young therapist as part of his therapy, the therapist was like, you need to go do this. And he called it it was like an initiation weekend. Now, when we think about initiation in the modern world, it's like like frat houses in or the military is just like you get fucking hosed and beaten up and stripped naked and.


But initiations have existed throughout for millennia in every indigenous society throughout the world have had this this ritual for young men where they become a man. Some of them were quite violent, some of them the kids in the get killed. Some of them would slice of foreskin off without any more. You know, it was some of them. They would feed you the blood of the older man. But there was always this, but incredibly important. That's what they believed it took to tame the the the wounds in the psyche of a young man and allow him to let go of all the shit you picked up as a child and step into who he's supposed to be.


And I supposed to be I don't mean who society is supposed to be, but supposed to be. But that thing that's calling from deep within, like Native Americans called it a vision quest. You go and you would sit in the woods for five days and starve yourself and and wait for your vision to come. Wait for that that that thing that's in you that's burning someone described once is your soul's code. And this is what I found out, that in my life, when I tap into that thing, we're going to talk about a lot more today.


I think when you tap into that and that's when the magic starts out, that's when the synchronicity starts to happen and in there is some magic. So let me just go let me let me take a step back. So so my friend my friend went and did this weekend the Mankind Project, the one who, as part of his healing of his his tenderness. And it fucking blew his mind because it was basically this organization, it worked out how to do a modern version of that kind of deeply spiritual initiation and that initiation into a in starts let go of the wounds of your childhood.


And Stefanou, you're supposed to be.


And for seven years, every time I saw this motherfucker, he would say, you know, the weekend yet. And like, I fuck off and then we can fuck off that kind of guy.


So and then I cut to seven years later, I've now met this amazing woman who's now my wife moved to New York and I just woke up one day. And I was like, I'm a fucking child. And this was 13 years ago, so 35. And as I am a fucking child, and whatever it is he's been saying for the last seven years, I need it and I need it now. What it is, but I need it now and so I then reached out to the local bank and like, oh, we got one in like nine days.


There's loads of them there everywhere. It's all over the world now. Yeah, they started it started in America in the late 80s.


And it's all get back to the work. This is all it's all connected.


And yeah.


And I went I went and did this thing and I remember this feeling. I'll never forget it.


As I was walking up this muddy pathway to where they sort of greet you at the end of this place. And I could feel like it's like electricity in my body. I could feel like this someone was fucking going on.


Something major was going on inside my body. And I was like, whatever it is this, I think there's something I need a fucking need it now.


Like like I'm going to cry. My eyes are like I need it and I need it fucking now. And I hope this is it because it is not that I'm going to do. I mean, it was my life.


What you walk into a place. What is it. Is it is that like you know, like I have like an AA meeting, you know, like is there coffee on tables and people sitting around and on chairs or is it outdoors. Is it like it's in the woods or something? You know what I mean?


There's no drugs. It's it's in the woods. And it's one of these things where they they they ask us to keep the process confidential because there's something about going through the process which and it's not like it is Cully's just because of, you know, what's going to happen is not quite the same experience. But what it was, was an attempt to create a modern day initiation. And there was one of one of the main components, which is what you see in the work, in the film, the documentary, the work.


So I explain this is this thing we call carpet work, which is a moment where you just sort of step on a carpet. There's a lot of men with the intention of helping you access whatever those deep wounds are. And I remember when we you go one at a time and do this carpet work, I remember the first guy stepped up and I just started crying. This is on a Saturday afternoon. She arrived Friday night and it's been like twenty four hours.


So getting you ready and doing these different process and just slightly cracking you open cracking jokes and getting you ready. And then the moment. Yeah, this first guy when I just started crying, I couldn't stop, I was just wailing, bawling my just like wider because there was shit inside me. They need to come out and in our society there's no way to get out. Where do you get to have those kinds of emotional releases? Where do you get to mourn your fucking childhood and the things you didn't have and the pain that you picked up and the suffering and suffering of the world?


Whatever the fuck it is, if you're a sensitive person, whatever you picked up, when you get a chance to scream it out, when you get a chance to fucking wear, when you get chance just to be held by a group of men and say, we give a shit, you matter simple fucking things, but things that are life changing.


And all I know is I started crying. I don't know what's going on. I don't cry my fucking eyes out. And then they said, Who's next? I said, I have to go now. I'm going to fucking. And I had this emotional release like I'd never had. Like I've been bottled in some shop my whole fucking life and I got an opportunity to get out. And remember the Sunday morning, we sort of all stand around in a circle by this lake is out in the woods.


And I remember been crying again that morning and I remember just sort of stand there, my hands open, just saying I feel the trees.


I can feel yeah, I could feel the war for the first time in my life.


When you went in there, like, were you upset about something? Was there something? Because I know you're a deep thinker. I know you analyze things and we're similar like that and we spend a lot of time in the back of our own heads. But were you upset about something? Was there something to push you or was it you were just feeling unsatisfied with who you are or where you're at, or was it bigger than that?


Or it was a feeling that something needed to change? As I said earlier, it's a feeling that I felt like I was a child.


And I needed to grow up and I didn't know how to grow up. And I think it was I need to be fucking initiated. I need to have that moment where I can actually just let go of some shit and step into it was and then I ended up doing this sort of work for I've been doing it for 13 years. I've started an organization that does it. I've done this work inside prisons with it. And so that was what led to the work.


So the same organization to mankind put it 20 years ago, again through magic. So I mean, this is just amazing story.


There's a there's a there's a prisoner called Patrick Nolan, who was this prison poet, and there was a riot one day and his best friend got shot by one of the guards. And they're all in lockdown for seven months. And he's Aryan Brotherhood. He's in this racist organization in a prison. And someone passed him. The book, Man's Search for Meaning, which I think you read it by Victor Frankl, which is about a guy whose experience in Auschwitz and he read this book and he just had this epiphany.


And he's just like, there has to be another way. It's just us against him and this constant fighting and this constant. And he was like, no, I'm going to fucking change you. And so we sort of think about people feeling powerless out of powerless out in the world. A man died of hepatitis C inside a maximum security prison cell. I'm going to change the fucking world. And I think he did. I think he did. He then some of his poetry was published in the local newspaper.


Can I say one of his poems? Yeah, I sort of learned poems of my heart as part of my practice. Let me here come on is a beer for wanting to cut it.


So he wrote his poem is one of the poems he wrote in prison. It's called Were I a Wolf? Yeah. Where I a wolf solitary tracker of the moon. These padded paws would pummel with urgent rhythmic rise this primal lament that invades my heart against the nights moist mossy carpet. Until I broke free from the forest, dark, foreboding depths to the timberline, and with one ferocious, mournful note, let rip this anguish from Outstretch Throat. If only I were a wolf and not this pathetic, critical man who's broken now teeth snap, shut to grief, to choked by terror of the deep chested, guttural emotions that would devour me whole if I suddenly let go.


If only I were a wolf. Cochairmen, thank you for Kimpo, so good for. It's funny you talk about all this because there's this vibe with the toxic masculinity and talk and vaccines and, you know, that's that's something that's happened. But you're talking years and years before. And these are people who were and these are the most toxic like these were killers.


Mandela is in prison, for fuck's sake. Not just not just the lower guys. These are the guys who are running the fucking prison in a level four prison. And Patrick said, I'm going to make a difference. So some of his poetry has been published in the local newspaper. And this is where the magic comes in. Some of the poetry of Public Life newspaper. This guy called Don Morrison, who was a B 52 bomber pilots. He's pretty killed more people than ever in the fucking prison combined.


But he's a hero and he gets a medal for it. And he read some of his poetry and he was in the myth poetic movement with Robert Bly and these guys who believe that poetry was this way to access and learning poems. I got the idea of learning by how was learning poetry was his way of bringing the poems into yourself and accessing this deeper part yourself through the poetry. So this guy, Damaris, who was a part of this movement, plus he was also in the mankind project and he was also doing men's work and sitting in a circle and doing this kind of the deep emotional release stuff.


And they became pen pals and they started talking and like, how can we how do I change it so well? How about you start a prison circle inside the prison? And he's like, well, I can't do it unless the fucking heads of the yard are into it and heads the yard. You know, they're all enemies.


So this was a story. Yes, I've heard different versions of this story. I'm going to say this version if it's not true. Sorry, everybody out there is a nice fucking story.


So my understanding is that he had to quit the gang that he was in in order to be able to talk to other people in the gang. And that means you're lonewolf, which means anyone could come after you. So you basically put your life on the line in order to be able to communicate with other people. Whether or not that's true, I don't know. But he fought the people off and eventually they let him go and then he start to talk to other people on the yard.


He also had a lot of the guy was feeling a lot of resistance from people when he said the start circle. And we just they were going to do it in the chapel with neutral ground on the few places where you can't sort of kill someone else. And he was getting a lot of resistance. So he went on the prison radio. And this is where we like the idea of vulnerability being our super superpower to his men.


We're told not to be emotional and to suppress everything and keep it down and stiff upper lip to try to Englishmen and sort of, you know. So what he did was he he realized this because he was a fucking. And he went on the prison radio and talked about when he was raped as a 10 or 11 year old boy and told everyone to leave and what it did to him that made him feel fucked his life up. And I think it just these guys who, as I said, these guys were one of the gangs with these killers, just something in that courage just penetrated them.


Just pierce the armor just enough for them to get out. For fuck's sake. What would I have to show up? What time? And it went from there. So Don Morrison knew this biker guys guy called Rob Albi, who done about seven years in prison. He found men's work and then he'd gone to and he met this guy commanding a somaiya. Who is this Shamon from Burkina Faso. And Rob went to Burkina Faso. Did like the initiation they do there, which is, if you want to read about this year, is a book called Of War and Spirit and Madona.


So many tells about his initiation.


And you read this stuff and it's just like, you know, because we have our perception of reality. Their perception is completely different. In what way? Well, there's a point in it where you basically you run into a tree and when you go through the tree, you then go into this sort of altered space. And in that space you may or may not come out. This is the initiation. And once you're in that thing, you might just stay in nothing forever.


And there might be no way of you coming out back into the real world. Or if you're worthy of it, you'll you'll be spat back out that, you know, it's just that you read the fucking thing.


I mean, it's just like I you know, I've I've rob what it did it I'd like to do the whole tree. And he's like, yeah, yeah. You really talk about this.


OK, this is so I don't know if to me it's like, where does the metaphor end? When where does the reality and where's that? You know, we we perceive reality through a lens.


Now we've been given a lens to perceive reality, our language, our upbringing, all this and you know, and reality tends to fit within that construct. And in any sort of magical synchronistic moments, we don't fit into that construct. Me that's like the crack in the Matrix.


There was there was this other is there another another world behind the veil that you can sort of peek behind every now and again? Oh, fuck.


And basically what he did was he to get all these killers into this group together. And he managed to get to started to talk. And they got this guy, Rob Albi, who is a guy who had gone to Burkina Faso and come back and tell his initiation.


He went in to teach creative writing.


And he's just got this vulnerability. Like his father was a preacher. He used to preach. On a Sunday and then being with a bell on the way home afterwards, but then he done all this work as well on him, so he dunnam uncompetitiveness up. So he then came in and these guys could sort of see themselves in him. So him.


Patrick, I think, kind of held this space. But there was this they were just bad, tough dudes who also could be vulnerable. And they start to bring this whole new concept in.


So all the guys, all these killers are kind of sitting around in a circle. And it's kind of like they're just telling their stories there, because if you look at certain scenes, there's lards like like being held down and screaming and punching.


And it looks like like an extremist individuals, aren't they really like all of them?


Yeah, it's almost like an exorcism. And what they realized was so they started doing these circles. There's only one guy now. And it was hard to get into the really sort of physical stuff because there's some stuff where you you get to emotions that are so deep and so, so difficult to access.


So then they came up with this fucking crazy idea. They do these mankind project weekends. I was talking about walking down the path to bring him into the maximum security prison, which was just so fucking out there.


And yet somehow the administration agreed to it.


And it's funny because they agreed to the first weekend and then Patrick died about a week before. But when I was in hospital, they came to him and said they've agreed to the first weekend. So this guy knew that he'd he made a difference. He knew that he'd started something and then he started doing these weekends.


And just let me just say as a sign it there wasn't a single race riot in Folsom Prison for 12 years because of this group. So Place had them all the time because all the heads of the gang were sitting in a circle together, or at least enough of them to make a difference. It just made a fucking difference. It just made a difference.


And then they started getting released and then transferred to those secret prisons. To me is like they all stayed.


There would have been a tipping point where you'd walked onto that yard as a new guy and he wouldn't need the guards anymore.


How do you how do you implement something like that, like in outside of Folsom Prison? How do you implement that in a like if you're not someone who's, you know, as damaged as those people, can you still can you still use that processes still work the same. Yes. Oh, yeah. But let me get to that.


Let me just finish up the the Folsom thing. So so, yeah. What you say in the work is one of those weekends they start doing what they bring, like a group of really skilled facilitators from the outside. A group are just regular folk because there was some real healing in that in the prisoners seeing that they could actually heal regular people. So people come in thinking they've got nothing they need to work on, thinking they're just fine.


Maybe they just come to look at the prisoners in the zoo kind of vibe and then before they know the lens is being pointed at them by these prisoners who have been doing this shit week in, week out for years at this point and touch such deep stuff in themselves. And they could start to see those things in other people. And they, for the first time in their lives, start to see themselves as healers instead of everyone to tell them their fuck ups.


They're killers that they start out. They'll never be anything. Suddenly they start to say, you fuck, I just I just help somebody. I just killed somebody. I know what they do.


And are they interrogating each other? Are they questioning each other? Is this is that it must be quite horrible in one way as well though. Is it for them?


It's not an interrogation.


It's because it's not like a therapy where you sit there and just go, OK, this is my story. These guys are pulling it out of each other, aren't they?


The way it works is you we have to just create a thing that we call a container. And the more powerful this container is, the more healing that happens in it. And what the container is, it's just a group of people setting their intention and you have to do is fairly ritualistically. So in the film, you see the guy does this sort of chant at the beginning. You have to bring a little bit of ritual into a bit of poetry, a bit of the and then everyone's voice has to be heard.


And what happens is, especially in the prison, because they only get these two times a year. And so the guys are coming in like, I'm going to fucking get mine, like I need a fucking helix. I need to get the fuck out of here or I need Helix and just need to feel fucking better. A lot of them won't even think about getting out. And that was a possibility. And I just need to heal. So they would just be vulnerable to one person would share and it would just drop us a little bit deeper than the next person would go even deeper.


And they would and it would just go that way. And it is there are techniques.


So there's techniques of how you help people access that part. A lot of it is is going back to the memory and allowing you to reexperience maybe incredibly traumatic memory.


But this time you held this time you love through. This time you can get for a lot of them. But we have to what you have to do to get through the anger first to the anger has a cap on it, all the other emotions. And he can't get past the anger because they have to suppress the anger, because the anger got them in prison and it was rage.


We say there's a difference in how you have immense sadness and you can't. You tap into that emotion so you get rid of sadness and you replace those emotions into anger and you become damaged because you're because the pain is instead of crying, you just you just lash out.




Because the pain is so much that it's easier to kill a man because he's triggered that pain in you than it is to face the pain.


Prison is full of men who the pain is just so much that that was that was so they went forward instead of back. The child had like a good friend of mine, Alja. Who's in the film Alja was given an opportunity, a choice when he was eight or nine years old by his babysitter of either being he would be molested or his four year old sister be molested. And so he chose he was he made the choice to be molested. And in that moment, some life decisions were made for him.


One, if you love someone, it makes you vulnerable and makes you weak. You don't love anybody, then no one can ever make that fucking choice again to if anyone going to do some fucking hiring in the room is going to be him. This is just and this memory was so traumatic that he blanked it, but he had no memory of it getting back.


It just organically came out as people were delving deeper and deeper and deeper into like a year and a half into being in the group.


It came back and it was the guy who was considered more dangerous. Charles Manson. At one point he was in solitary confinement. Charles Manson and Charles Manson have more freedom on him. This is how far he went into that way and how deep he went into the sort of darkness without even knowing what it was. Until some people gain the opportunity to have a look at it like a year and a half into sitting in a circle, the memory came back and he was like, oh, my God.


And then he could start to piece his life back together again. And then it took another 10 years and then they let him out. But he was one of the lucky ones. He was one of the ones that got an opportunity to actually take a look at and say, when you say we mentioned earlier, when you see it in the film, it's it's it's like exorcisms. Yeah. Because you have to and you have to create a safe space for that.


Anger can come out and they they don't want it to come out because they know what happens and, you know, it can come out, you come out and something about allowing it to come out and play it safe and be witnessed in your fucking anger and your pain and so many of them, the anger comes out first and then the crying comes and then then the dead, you know, and then you can start to talk. And then it's it's not like you pull it out of him, because once you create that space and once it starts popping off, people just want to fucking go as it is like me on the carpet.


When I say it's just I cry crying. It's just like it just something comes up that suddenly suddenly your psyche knows it's got permission to let this shit out for the first time in your life.


Is there a DIY version of that? Like, I don't want to go into fucking Folsom because I do that with Johnson tonight. Can we just sit here and do our own? No, we can't do it ourselves. We have to. It means the right people around us.


Well, but as you say, we're working on that. So basically, I started going into Folsom in order to help make this. Basically, they were like, if you want to help make the films. I found out this footage existed for this that they shot this weekend. And they were like this guy, James bricklayer's like my brother.


If you want to if you want to help us, you need to come and see what we're doing. So in five minutes, falls and two of these weekends. So the first weekend I went in there and changed my life, changed my life. There's a moment when I was on the ground wailing from the pit of my soul with these four prisoners who were in prison for life, holding me down so I could just rage and fucking and. It was a life changing experience.


I mean I mean, to this day, they gave me like a spirit name. They gave me the fucking shit was crazy. Then the second weekend, something else happened equally as powerful and then.


I sort of. We've got the film out there, the film, the really well, and then just vowed to make a difference myself. So I started an organization in New York called All Kings where we do this kind of work with we're sort of the guys we're trying to sort of help young guys release from prison or older guys, but whatever. So what we do is we build the communities based around this kind of work by someone sitting in a circle and sharing and and allowing ourselves to go sort of deep into emotion.


And then when Kobe kicked in, we actually started doing the show Zuman and it got pretty fucking good. Yeah.


So this is where I go. This way I go. Wow. So one of the guys I met inside, Fauzan, was this guy called Burwick.


Shouts You Bill Shahroudi, who is one of these guys who just was quietly in the background at Folsom, Twista stayed in touch.


He was a very, very skilled facilitator.


And whenever stuff went into the really like wild place and I'm talking the cool spirit release therapy these days, it's not exorcism as such. But when it start to get into sort of strange entities, because the guy sort of came in and just knew how to handle that stuff. So when I started talking, he came up and came up one of the weekends and we were really sort of focused on making it because the Manhattan Project is a is a wonderful organization, but because he was dominated by some white guys, it's a very white organization and a lot of people of color sort of come in and it's just too many white guys and they can leave again.


So I know I'm a why do you live in New York? I was like, I want to start an organization which is just much they can't be. It's got me more people of color than white people just has to be because then we can actually start to help the communities that need need to help really sort of connect it because yeah, that was a he'd never really seen such a multicultural space before doing this kind of healing work.


So he was just really excited about it. And sort of any sexuality like Bill's gay and sexuality was okay.


And it was just like it's just it's fucking beautiful now. And then when covid kicked in, Bill call me up and he's like, I've been doing this.


So you've been doing these sort of crazy weekends, which he does these two weekend courses that he does. And he's like, I got this idea of bringing this stuff into I think I can deliver it in like a half hour phone calls.


Do you want to be my guinea pig? You in a couple of minutes can be a guinea pig. I was like, let's go, Bill. Let's go, let's go.


And this ended up it's called a major point project. And I think this shit might change the world. I love the rethink. I could be wrong.


But what I'm wondering is what your life is like. I believe I'm fucked up enough, but Johnson looks fairly balanced. Could Johnson benefit from it? I know. I know. I got a lot of baggage. But but what if what if you're not? Do you think is do you think everyone can can can get something from it.


Yeah. Everyone, everybody. Everybody. Because it's universal just man now it is for everybody because something is very, very simple. Someone is just active listening. Somebody is just just tell me where you're at and I'm just going to echo back. It's echo silence and clarify. And we do this thing on Zuma.


We just go get new guys to come in. They go into a breakout room with someone and for ten minutes someone just listens. And I sit and they come back and they go, no one's ever just fucking listen to me before.


I always like to talk and no one listens.


Yeah, people give me advice. I try to just let me just be where I am in my emotions and and just whole fucking space. I mean, obviously at the very first step of it.


Then as you get into it, when it gets into to get getting this idea of parts work.


So in you right now, as is the two year old, you you're eight year old, you you're eleven year old, you you're fifteen year old. You you go get your lazy fuck you. You know, all the different parts of you, different points in your life have sort of been at the forefront, some of them consciously, some of them unconsciously.


And so Bill's idea was like, well, how about we create a space inside ourselves? We can actually bring all these parts in. It's really kind of weirdly schizophrenic, but you bring all your party and have conversations with them. So then you sort of getting in relationship with these parts. I'll give you one sort of concrete example, because this is this was not this was my own experience as I get to talk about.


So I've been I've been a bit of a stone head pretty much my entire life. And I'd say pretty much every day I would have you know, I'd have a split. And I had some great stories.


I told myself about how it's OK, you know, is my spiritual practice. My creativity is my destiny is my all these wonderful. Yeah. And it's fine because I have a highly functioning I still do very well. Yeah. I still did very well in life. Yeah. Like it wasn't, it wasn't like it held me back and it was just part of life and I just did it and whatever. And there were definitely negatives as well as positives, positives.


But I ignored them all. So anyway as part of my sacred space work, at one point I bought in this pub. We is a good time guy. I think you met him when we were traveling around, right? You aren't going to be quite honest. Yeah, yeah, I'm a big fan, too. This is not like I'm not trying to kill these parts of it, you know? And then after a few weeks into that, he suddenly morphed into into my escape artist.


I was the first one to see that part myself, was actually trying to separate and actually trying to sort of separate myself and and hide because I was maybe uncomfortable in these social situations. So getting completely wasted was the way of doing it.


And then I became a sort of partner and then a little bit a few weeks after that, he suddenly became my eyes switch because, you know, every day you check in with them and they you know, they say, oh, actually, I'm not that anymore. And the name changed. It was like, when I am your addict, I see myself as any kind of an addict I could handle on myself.


And I was like, OK, we have an addict now, whatever. And then a couple of weeks after that, one day he just changed into this Indian Sadeh like Indian holy man of orange robes. And this part of me in this meditation said really, really fucking clearly. If smoking weed is part of your spiritual practice, then great, I'm going to be here supporting you. If it isn't and you have a smoking just because you want to escape, because you're finally uncomfortable to sit with some emotional this or that, it's just your bad habit, then I'm going to be there tapping you on the shoulder and saying another, yeah, whatever.


But this works so deep and so deep inside.


So for the next two or three weeks, every time I smoked, every day, the next two or three, I could feel this fucking thing.


It's just like, well, you just found yourself out, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just this part in this part, Idrees or jigged, this part inside of me to actually become who it should be to serve the role it needs to serve.


Now, a different point of my life is needed to serve different roles. And it's and it's done me. It's done well for me. But at this point in my life, it needs to change to this. And I just stopped and it wasn't like some white knuckling. I just stopped. And now I smoke occasionally when I feel like it, when it feels like the right time in the right place at the right situation.


But it's not it's not an everyday it's not an so, which is something I had this thing under control and it was just like, oh my God, it's funny when you talk about addiction and identity and stuff like that, you know, Mark, me and Michael, none of us drink anymore. Now, all of us that did have love, we probably, you know, I think it's something that evolves in you as you grow older, you start to look for bigger answers or you start to look at yourself more in the mirror.


And that's what all the stuff you're talking about, all that which is is very of the oldest kind of being open and vulnerable. But it's just I think it's that thing of who you vulnerable to. I've always found that as a TV presenter, I've always found an amazing tool. If I tell you something quickly, really revealing about me really personal, all of a sudden I'm bringing down barriers because I'm said I'm not afraid to say this. So can you talk to me?


And then you find people naturally become because they know you're being honest. They know when you're bullshitting them. They know when you're being 100 percent honest. But there's still that I wonder in Ireland where that spaces for people. It's great that you can do shit like that online. That's that's very clever.


I want to ask you about something else just quickly. Yeah. Yeah. I always brag about you because because you probably have possibly one of the coolest jobs in the world ever. Right. And I just think I don't think Jeremy. I think you deserve it. What do you do exactly?


I, I direct actors in big budget video games, big budget video games that I don't know if you let's say where.


Yeah. You know, I work in Rockstar Games. We do Grand Theft Auto.


I read that and you do these fucking games right there. The the biggest games in the world.


The biggest, the biggest. Absolutely bloody anything in the world. Yeah.


But I mean, we've we've we've we've we've gone through city like you looked after me as well. I don't know if let's say that one day I was broke and didn't have anything next to was like ten million of my chance and I was like congestions to my chin.


I was all sorted out do that even though it didn't happen. But but you were taking care of me anyway at the moment. Right. Does this vibe going around because I was coming at an Xbox and it's a new generation of gaming and I read some really interesting shit about. The future of gaming and how therapeutic it could be for people or what the future is going to look like. Yeah, I'm not talking about specifics of brands that you work with or anything like that, but what do you do?


Do you have a vision where you'd like me to go see how we can affect people? Yeah, I mean I mean, I, I, I believe fundamentally the games are the ultimate myth delivery system. And to me, we all live by miss, we will live by a certain miss, most of us aren't aware the mess. We live by some of them as the societal miss. By miss, I mean the stories, the structure of our society to me is created by this sort of mythology.


We all live as a part of that mythology. We have our own personal mythology, which is based from your parenting and your childhood and your trauma into this and that. And there have been these sort of ancient stories that have lasted for thousands and thousands of years because they have the capacity to take us into this deeper, more spiritual part of ourselves. And when I got into games, when I got the job and I started really getting back into games like, oh, God, I discovered this sort of men's work and my own my own healing.


And I was like, oh, yeah, this is how we spread it to the world. This is where we do, you know, may not be in the next five years, but it's going to it's going to happen eventually because it's because you can be the hero in your hero's journey.


You can be you can feel it's like to be a God.


You can feel what it's like to be all the parts of yourself you want to explore.


And, you know, and and and and it's fun to be had in games as well. So it's not like the only thing that's going to get to be, but definitely it's one aspect of what games can become.


But it's funny because I'm just trying to see how you would how you can dilute it down into every day, how you just get man to be vulnerable like that. I'm all right with that because I'm a softy and people know me and I don't a fuck what I say to get me. You don't really have nothing to hide. Oh, my fuckups of their mascaras, man, they define me. They've been me who I am, you know, I'm dealing with them.


I'm not saying I've dealt with them all, but I'm dealing with most of them. But I know other people and they're just man their definition of a man is fucking James Bond, man. They just want to be like a good poker, you know, good to women.


And, you know, that's what they want, man, that they don't they want to be they want to be cool. They want to be contained. They want to be strong. That's their definition of what strongness?


Men give yourself permission to be vulnerable. You'll be surprised. You'll be surprised what comes out of it. Be vulnerable to women. Be vulnerable to your children, be vulnerable to your friends.


And, you know, know that it that may make them really uncomfortable and just be OK with that, too.


My kids are really uncomfortable with how much I'm sharing with them. You know, someone said to me, oh, is there a women's version of all kings?


And every time they say, I said no because no one is crazy at all. Kings exists in New York because I said, I'm going to start with Kings in New York. We cherish the women talk.


And that's the difference.


I, I don't know. This might be controversial as fuck, but I think women do an amazing job of holding other women down. I think it's not as straightforward as we might like to think.


The whole fucking room agrees with you as a woman, as a Muslim woman. Go on. Go on. Tell us what you think needs to go on as a woman, then as a woman. Yeah, I think so.


I think a lot of women feel that they feel better about themselves by putting other people, other women down. That makes them feel a bit more superior. Or really. Yeah, I think so.


You know, so, you know, so I, I remember my wife was she was really feeling her power and she's a powerful, powerful, incredible woman. And she she's always been a little afraid of it.


She was stepping into a power is one of these moments. And we were at this party and this woman looked sort of sideways and it was enough to shut it down.


And it's just I think the men get the same when we get to the main gate, which is you being your fullest powerful self.


Makes me realize I'm not being my first powerful self and I don't know how to be my first powerful self. It's easy to pull you down. That is to work out.


Just have to tell you something. My sister was going for a driving test last week. I told her and she hasn't fucking let operate.


I said be you, but just be twenty percent less.


You worry because she shit. No, no I'm just saying she I said you got to act like you know just don't act too cocky like she's five and the guy telling them to hold on and just fucking chill out and just I don't scare them off because she's a powerful woman, she's the powerful woman. And I said some men are like fucking terrified by that. But but afterwards, when I thought about a total bullshit advice, really, Montagnard to be twenty percent less than she is, she's dead.


Right. Be fucking 110 percent sure. Yeah.


What just can you act like someone who's learned to drive in Cairo?


Could you do that just for the sake of this dude? That's all I was suggesting. But she took it up the wrong way. But you be who you be. You get the new you because you're a legend.


I love you. I could talk to you all the time. You're the man.


And you know. You know. Looking for an actor. One of the games. I'm just saying I'm just saying. Me and John. John, I saw my shining star, you know what I mean? When I mean, we do not get to get the. Thanks a million man.


Isn't he awesome? There you go. It's OK for you to. When I said you're a Muslim woman, you were all I don't intend for me as a Muslim. When you're trying to sell your ass to get into a video game, you're like a Muslim woman. Whatever it's like. It's it's it's I love that shower curtain.


It's just listen, these are my thoughts and only my thoughts. Being vulnerable is terrifying, isn't it? Yeah, right.


It is not. No one wants to be vulnerable. Right. But it's daring to come out from the shadows and show who you are and be seen. When I shut myself off from vulnerability, I distance myself from the experiences that bring purpose and meaning to my life. I'm not bullshitting you. Vulnerability is the only authentic state being vulnerable. It means being open to getting hurt, but also for pleasure. Being open to the wounds of life means also being open to the true human experience.


Vulnerability increases my sense of worthiness and or authenticity. Thank you, Janjua. Authenticity. If you look at yourself or think about yourself and you feel like a fraud or fake because you're too afraid to share or say certain things out loud about yourself, it will erode you. It's soul destroying vulnerability helps us feel close and connected to our partners and friends, yet achieve our own sense of identity, my real identity. It allows me to be open with my heart, to give and receive love fully, because it teaches me to feel and exude empathy.


Fact. I don't have a mixture. Can't drop it. Thank you. Thank you. That don't. I think we've had meetings about the slow clapping. I find this stuff is important and it's the reason that especially with male suicide and stuff like that, but it's not just something that affects men, it affects women and everyone else. And you passed on generationally. You know, you don't deal with something. You pass it on that one person's stuff can just carry on for generations and generations.


So just don't do that. Be vulnerable. It's all right.


I'm wearing my now, as usual, you can share if you enjoyed this podcast, we hope you did.


And you can share on social media. We have Facebook and Twitter and and and Instagram, Osby, Ashmawy and anything else like you can like us. You could could subscribe, leave us to review all these things to help us. Older episodes, older episodes. There's really just like there's a whole season there. And you could listen back to, you know, if you haven't checked them out and they're all really interesting individually. I think I would say that.


But yeah.


So listen, until until next time I can I a couple days ago called.