This is A. O. Scott. I'm a critic at the New York Times. What I do and what the other critics here do is part of the same project that all of the journalists at the New York Times work on every day to give you clarity and perspective and above all, a deeper understanding of the world. When you subscribe to the New York Times, it's not just here are the headlines, but here's the way everything fits together. If you'd like to subscribe, please go to nytimes. Com/subscribe.

From the New York Times, this is the interview. I'm David Markezi. It's not easy to make what some people might call dumb comedy, because if it were, more people would have a career as successful as Marlon Wayans. Wayans broke out in the early 2000s when he co-wrote and co-starred in slapsticky parody comedy movie hits like Scary Movie One and Two, White Chicks, and my personal favorite, Little Man, for those of you who don't remember, is one in which he plays an adult masquerading as a baby. He spends most of the movie in a diaper. Marlin is the youngest of 10 children, and he's a member of the Wayans family comedy dynasty, which also includes his successful siblings, Damon, Sean, Kim, and Keenan Ivory Wayans. They all had a hand in the groundbreaking '90s sketch comedy show in Living Color. Marlin went from there to later, starring on five seasons of the WB sitcom, The Wayans Brothers. He made all those hit movies I mentioned, and And on top of all that, he's also built a nice career for himself as a supporting player in dramatic movies. But recently, Wayans, who's now 51, has been using his comedy to work through some much heavier topics.

His upcoming standup special, called Good Grief, is all about the death of his parents, as well as the nearly 60 other loved ones he's lost in just the last few years. When I talked to Marlin, he was in Albuquerque, where he was filming a psychological horror movie with Jordan Peel's production company, and he was getting ready to host a party the film's cast and crew, where everyone was expected to show up in cowboy gear. Here's my conversation with Marlin Wayans.

Hi, Marlin.

What's up, David? How are you? I'm Good.

Tired. Tired from filming?

Yeah, man. This one is a lot on the 50-year-old body, 51, but it's great.

You said you're tired, but you're having a party tonight. Is that what I just heard?

Yeah. When I do movies, I like to form community and family. I'm having a party for my cast and my crew at my house that I'm renting. Just gathering. The fights are going to be on and just so people could mingle and roll some cigars and have some tacos.

Well, since you're having a party tonight-Shindig. A shindig, a knees up.

You want to pull up?

It seems like a perfectly natural thing to talk about the subject of your new special, which is the death of your parents.

Isn't that crazy? People are like, What's your next special? I'm like, Oh, it's a really funny, hilarious journey about the death of my parents. But it wasn't just the death of my parents. I lost 57, 58 people that I loved in a matter of three years. It felt like biblical. You know how you read things in the Bible and you go, Man, that's some real traumatic stuff that person went through. Then they find this light. At the end, we get the lessons. It's always through tragedy.

How do you find the funny thing in the sad thing? Or when did you realize that you could make comedy out of these dramatic events?

It's been a gift since I was a kid. I mean, all of us, Wayne says, We're crazy people. The worst thing happens, and the first thing we think is what's funny about it. There's funny. Absolutely everywhere. I remember my cousin Setty died, and my auntie buried him on jeans, and he had a T-shirt and some Air Force ones, and a baseball cap. Me and Damon sitting over his casket, and Damon looks at me and goes, You know, if there's a dress code in heaven, I don't think City is getting in. People thought we were crying, but we were crying and laughing. We always look for laughs.

Are there elements of the new special that you can point to and say, This is a joke or the material that I couldn't have done five years ago or 10 years ago? What in it is evidence of your growth as a comedian?

I think as a comedian, I'm getting to the good stuff. This was the hardest thing for me to do, to work on this material about my mom passing, and I'm still dealing with the grief. As my dad is on his way to transitioning. I had two shows the night my father passed. I had two shows. I pulled up to the Comedy Club, and I got a call, and my dad died. I was like, Okay. All right. Cried in the car real fast. Boom. I had a show. I didn't cancel the show. I did my show, and then right there on the stage, I told the audience my dad passed, and I broke down, I cried. Then I got ready for the next show. I think in order to grow as a comedian, for me, it's like talking about the hard stuff. When When you talk about real-life pain, parents passing, something everybody may go through, and you can get through that set, and you can find these nuances of funny, and you could still be irreverent, edgy, crazy, silly, thought-provoking, and vulnerable all at the same time. I think that's growth. I miss my parents dearly, but I'm I'm a different human with my parents gone than I was when they were here because I think now I'm a man.

I don't have parents anymore. I live differently, and I understand the quality of life. I'm on a vacation more. I don't look at my phone as much. I walk. I never went outside and walked. I was never on a walk. I thought people was crazy. Why are you walking? Bro, get on a trip. Every morning, I get up, and for one half hour, I go for a walk. Just to clear my mind, just to think. It has me thinking in ways that I never thought before. I pray more because when I pray, I feel like I'm speaking to my parents and that they're listening. I let them know what's going on. I report back to them like Mork when he used to talk to Ork. Good reference. End of the show, very 1980s, '70s. But my identity has been concreted in the departure of my legendary parents.

So the key to self-improvement, it's simple. You just have to have your parents die.

That's a way. Sometimes they'll break you, though. You know what's crazy? My mother's death broke me. It shattered me into a million pieces because that was my girl. I never got married because I never wanted my mother to be jealous of a woman. I never wanted my mother to feel second to any woman.

Is that true? You know that's the reason why you You never got married?

Absolutely. That was one of the five reasons. I'll say that was number two. Number one is I was going to fuck that up. It's going to happen. Everybody that knows that I haven't been married, they say, All All he did was skip two divorces. My mom was very needy. I told my mother on her deathbed, I said, I never got married because I always wanted you to be my number one girl. Those were my last words. I said, Take that to heaven with I realized as we're talking about this, talking about your parents, not really making the case that this is a particularly funny special. No, it's hilarious. Bro, let me tell you, it's about an hour and seven minutes. It's hilarious for about an hour and five. Then you have spread throughout the special two to maybe three minutes of heart. I'm proud of this special because I think it's going to make you feel because I'm crazy and I know it, and I could be inappropriate, and I know it, and I'm always going to be obnoxious in that way. I think in order for me to hit the different levels of comedy, You got to be somewhat offensive, and I'm okay with that.

But when you hit the frequency, it speaks to heart, and it's so relatable. You don't think that these things that you're going through, you think that it's just happening to you. But you do these sets and you're like, Wow, this is happening to a lot of people.

You said to reach certain levels of comedy, you got to be offensive. There is the material in the special. I'm thinking in particular of the Magic Johnson AIDS material.

Oh, you saw the special?

I saw it, yeah. Which, by the way, he has HIV, not AIDS. You should go in and redub that. You know what the other mistake you make is? You call Louis Armstrong, sax player, trumpet player.

But it was still funny, right? Here's the thing. You can't be super on point with the facts. When you're telling jokes, sometimes you tell the jokes, man. It was crazy. I've had friends and relatives to die from AIDS. So part of even That joke is finding humor in things that happen. It's a different way to look at something tragic. I think the world has forgot how to laugh. And part of it is we're grooming people to be sensitive. But I find when I'm in a comedy club, people like to laugh. They like to laugh at those dark things, the magic jokes. People want to laugh again. I'm trying to de-program and get us back to just laughing.

In the special, there's one magic joke I'm thinking about in particular, where I understand what you're saying that you have this series of jokes where you're framing it like, Magic's life got better after he got sick. That's the hypothesis of the jokes. But then you throw in a line there about sex with monkeys or whatever. That was the one, really, where I cringed. I was like, That's rough. That was.

Well, I said, Show me the monkey I got next. I didn't say he had sex with monkeys. I said, I don't know how he got this good version of this disease. But however he I want it that way. To me, that was escapism because it's not real. Of course, he didn't have sex with a monkey. If you read in every joke, if you get literal, Everybody's going to be offended by it. There's about, I'll play, 72 things in that special to be offended by. I think great humor is take whoever you send up, those people are laughing the loudest. I hope that Magic laughs the loudest at that joke, which he will. Magic has a great sense of humor. I hope Shaq laughs at his joke. I hope all of them laugh at- Do your Shaq impression right now.

Do your Shaq impression.

. Kobe. They're friends of mine. When Kevin Hart does a LeBron hairline joke, I don't think LeBron gets mad. I think part of it is it's all out there. I'm not telling no secrets. This is all out there. I'm just going, here's a different way to look at it. I rescued myself from depression by learning to laugh in my worst circumstances. Losing my parents broke me. I'm telling the audience, Here's how you can survive this. Find humor in everything.

The idea of the culture getting too sensitive or overly sensitive, it's something that people have been talking about and have identified for a while now. I'm just interested in digging into that a little bit more because on one hand, what we might say is too sensitive could also be understood as the culture being made safe for people who didn't feel safe in the culture before. The example that comes to mind for me is It's one that has to do with your life. You have a trans son, right?

Mm-hmm.

The sensitivity around how people talk about transgender people and what they say and how we think about transgender people, That is directly related to a change in the culture that allows your son to live the life that he wants to live. Absolutely. These things are connected. How do you see that connection? On the one hand, what you're calling the sensitivity on the other hand, how a culture actually changes.

I'm working on a beautiful hour about that, about the transition. As a parent that went through it, I think I have something to say that forwards the agenda of that unconditional love and acceptance for your child and for others. I went through it. The transition wasn't about their transition. It was my transition, going from opposing what they wanted to do to complete acceptance. It was the five stages of grief. I felt like I was losing my daughter. My daughter was dying in my eyes. I speak about this from a true perspective, and I take you through the five stages of grief. Midway through the act, after the denial after anger, and when I get to bargaining, that's when the whole set flips. Because the people that are angry or in denial They're all on my side as the parent at first. I'm talking in complete ignorance because that's what a lot of people are. Then the whole set takes a complete 180 because it's about me getting to acceptance. I become a cautionary tale for the people that may be going through this of how you can get through this. Try to get to acceptance as quickly as possible.

It took me all of a week. That's all.

It sounds like a busy week. It was.

I was like, No, you can't do this. You can't do that. I'm not supporting it. I was that guy. I was that guy. I'm ashamed to say it because in my eyes, I was protecting my child. Now, understanding that all I was doing was creating distance, and that's not fair to them. Who the f am I to stand in this person's way and tell them what's right for their life. I'm a parent, and the only thing I can do as a parent is be an example to love my child and hope that other parents do the same.

So did your experience with your son and understanding what your thought process was, the five stages, and how you reacted to... What pronouns does your son use?

He and they.

Right. So, reacting to what they were going through. Did that change or affect your thinking at all about comedy and who gets made fun of when and how and when to push buttons?

Yes and no. I think a comedian has the right to have their point of view, just as people have their right to have their point of view. I don't get offended by anybody's humor. I think, look, Don Rickles did a lot of racist jokes, but man, he was really funny. That was a really funny racist. I'm part comedian, right? Before I'm even Black or a man, I'm a comedian. I'm all for comedians developing their point of view, no matter how ignorant, small, inconsiderate, dark. They have to do this because if nobody tries to find the funny, then society is missing out on humor.

There are certain comedians. I'm thinking of Ricky Gervais, Dave Chappelle, where it seems like to them, material about transgender people. It's the taboo that they need to keep pushing at to show that they're willing to push at a taboo.

I don't think it's the taboo that they're pushing at. They just want to say what the hell they want to say. Who are you to tell me what I can say and not say? Dave is a friend of mine. I have a trans child. I'm not going to not be Dave's friend because of his point of view. I went to see his shows. We've had several conversations about things. He knows I have a trans son. But That doesn't change the fact that, Hey, you got an hour on this that he wants to do from his point of view, and he has every right to do it. Me and my child had this conversation, and they understood. They may feel that way, but I said, As a He's a comedian, he has every right to say what he wants to say and try to find the humor in what he's saying. I don't think his intention is to make you feel bad. I think he's just trying to protect his right to say what he feels. We don't have to think alike. You're still my friend. I learned from you. There's things I learned from you.

Hopefully, through conversations, we could come to the fence and agree and they disagree on some things, but we affect change in each other. And that's life. I think we have to learn to laugh again. We're heading to a very sad place when we can't laugh anymore.

But you know what's funny? I really think the idea that we don't laugh anymore is just fundamentally wrong. I think if you take social media as an example, so it would be just joke after joke after joke, funny meme after funny meme. To me, the question is really like, what are those jokes saying?

Who's telling the joke?

Who's telling the joke? And what are they trying to convey with the joke? I think that feels to me like the more germane question.

People don't the same jokes they used to at work. There's no water-cooler talk anymore. You know what I mean?

When's the last time you were at a water-cooler? What are you doing at a water-cooler?

I got one in my house.

Was your assistant laughing their jokes? Oh, good for you.

No, but I think even now when you walk on sets, it's like everybody's tight. Nobody wants to offend. Nobody wants to say anything. We're a bunch of robots just walking around. There's no joy. That's why I love performing on a stage because it's a reminder to me that people still want to laugh. There's nothing like that elation that you get. It's a high that you get when you don't know if this joke that I'm about to say is going to offend everybody, or they're going to walk out, or they're going to boo me, or they're going to hate this, and then you tell it. Everybody cracks up and you're like, whew. It's just when you get into the corporate setting or you go sometimes when you go home, it's safety again. But now Even then, you can't say that. You can't say that. You got your kids telling you, Dad, that's inappropriate. That's inappropriate to you, you little fucker. To me, it's perfect. I pay the rent here. I'm going to say what I want. It's okay for me to be inappropriate. My inappropriateness has paid for your college.

You talked earlier about changes in what's considered funny or what we expect of comedians. I was thinking about that in the context of your hit movies, which come out of the tradition of Mel Brooks films or Zucker Abram Zucker films. Those were hits. Those were money makers. You made them cheap and you made a lot of money on them. But those kinds of films are also really not in Vogue anymore. It seems to be like both in stand-up and just in film, comedy, generally, there's always the idea that the comedy has to be about something in addition to being funny. It can't just be a funny movie. It also has to be about a larger theme. I'm curious to know why you think the comedies that you made your name with fell out of vogue. What's changed?

Well, if you look at Hollywood for the past 10 years, there hasn't been a lot of comedies, period. Because Hollywood, everything is cyclical. They were chasing the superhero. They were chasing the blockbuster. I'm very patient because they're going to make comedies again. But I think the people that's going to make the comedies are the people that know how to make the comedies. They keep trying to make these scary movies. The audience is like, That don't taste like the Wayne. I'm not going. Because they know we how to tell these jokes. It's a family recipe that we've had. You can't replicate what we do. It's just we know. You can have all the seasonings. You don't know how much to put on it.

Wait, is the new Scary movie that they just announced that irritating to you?

No. I mean, it's not the first time we've heard it. If they want to waste $50 million, go for it.

Do you get a check from that?

No, that's a whole another conversation. I like to say that those Weinsteins, they're They wasn't just... They raped everybody.

Not the same.

Business-wise.

Not the same.

Business-wise. Literally and business-wise. We all got a little taste. They were some terrible people.

Good example of an offensive joke.

Depends on the audience. Damn, Dave, you said What's new? I'm going to take you to a Ricky Gervais show in a Dave Chappelle show. I'm just going to sit next to you and watch what you go, Oh, God.

Wait, do me being sensitive in a white guy voice.

Oh, God, you can't say that. Christ. Jesus, hey, Christ. That's inappropriate. You know it's crazy?

It's crazy, Marlin.

No, I think it. Even when you go on stage, and you say a certain topic, immediately, sometimes you feel the audience tighten up. Then your job as a comedian is to basically beat them into submission until they either lighten up or they tighten up so much that you lead their tight asses right there and you say, Good night.

Just before we go, I know you got to get ready for a party. Can you tell me a funny party story from your life?

A funny A party story?

Yeah, a party story. I feel like you've been to a few parties.

I've been to too many parties. Oh, man. I saw Tupac 20 minutes before he got shot. Ironically, I saw Biggie 20 minutes before he got shot. I mean, it's not funny, but what a coincidence.

Wait, is that true? Yeah. In both instances? Yeah. Holy moly. That's not funny.

20 minutes from now, you may get shot. Here's the thing. And then you laugh. He's a sick man, David.

Wait, can I try an offensive joke on you?

Go for it.

So you had 58. I just thought of this one. Go for it. You had 58 loved ones. Yes. Diaries. You ever think the problem is you? Are you contagious?

They want to get the hell away from me.

58 people? Or wait, I can keep going.

Who's 60 if you include Tupac and Biggie?

There you go. Are you counting anyone that you just admire as a loved one? Like you see Tina Turner died. She's just number 55.

No, she wasn't one of the people. Some of those people were. Chadwick was a friend. That was the hard one. I swear, It's crazy. When you think about how many people have passed this, and that's what made me do this special because I feel like we need to laugh about it. I needed therapy. It was therapy for me. I still hurt. But, man, The last time I cried about my mom and my dad was only on set recently. That's because my director, he's a sick man, and he wanted to incite some feelings. He said, Just think about how proud your mom and dad are of you right now. I thought about how I showed in the absence for my family and how I was able to help bury them, help my older siblings get through, help my nephews and my nieces, just show up for everybody. I think that's what they raised me to be, and that's what they'd be proud of.

Well, I appreciate you showing that emotion now. I can see your tears in your eyes. You know, I'm sorry that you're going through that, but it's really good for me for this podcast. If you cry maybe a little bit more audibly, I'd really appreciate that.

I like you. You're going to be my friend, Dave. You're going to be my friend.

But thank you for that openness. I appreciate it.

You just want to leave on a high note. But that was a joyful cry. I do miss them, but I know they would be proud.

But Marlin, I'll We'll talk to you later this week.

Yes, sir.

After the break, I call Marlin back to revisit that Weinstein joke and talk a little bit more about parenthood.

I can't say what I am as a father. They can say what I am as a father. And when I'm gone, I hope I left them with a whole lot of love and a whole lot of memories. What if I was wherever I wasn't able to show up. I hope they forget that.

Hey, everyone. It's Instead Herndon, political reporter for the New York Times. When I became a journalist, I made a promise to my readers, like the way the doctors take an oath to their patients. I committed to bringing the truth to light, no matter which party, business, organization, or person I'm reporting on. I have to be persistent. I have to do research. Research, and I have to push back when someone tries to hide or spin the facts. And I know I'm going to write stories that both Democrats and Republicans don't like. But that's what the New York Times has been doing for more than a century, and that's what we're going to keep doing. We believe the public deserves the right to make up their mind based on the facts. So if you want to support this work, you can subscribe to the New York Times at nytimes. Com/subscribe.

Hi, Marlon. How are you?

I'm good, man.

I was thinking about a very specific moment from our conversation where I asked you about no longer being involved with the scary movie franchise. You mentioned Harvey Weinstein, who I guess you believe she just strong-armed you out of the series. When you brought it up- Actually, It was Bob and Harvey.

Yeah, I'm sorry.

But it was clear you were loading up a joke, and you had this pause where I think you were thinking about then whether to say the joke. I want to know if you can tell me in your head in that moment, when you have the potentially offensive joke lined up, what is actually going through your head in that pause?

Who's my audience? I heard you cringe on the other thing, the monkey joke, and I was like, meh. But I was going to say, he doesn't just rape women. He raves a lot, too. Trust me, we did business with him.

Yeah.

Do you see your response? Do you see your response? We call that me and my brother, we used to be in a writer's room, or we'd be in network notes. We've always been edgy with our humor, always. That's just how we do it. When people have that reaction like, Oh, God, that little thing you do. We used to call that getting on a whitey bike. It was like brothers would crack up at that, but white people are like, I don't know about that. And they start pedaling backwards.

You know what's funny, though? I don't know if the whitey bike is actually the bike I ride on because...

This is the bike that you said it made me laugh.

I'm not offended, but there is the thing where it's like when somebody says the taboo thing where you go like, I don't know. Are you allowed to say that? But that's different than taking offense. You know what I mean?

But what is taboo? When you've been in a situation, for me, once Again, I can talk about things from a different perspective. When I talk about Bob and Harvey and I say that, it's because there's damage there. I can go into a whole another article about the Scary Movies franchise, and You guys are like, Oh, I see why he said what he said. Because we have been victims in that way, but in business, not physically, but in business. I think a monster is a monster, and those monsters showed up in business as well.

Yeah. In the Good Grief Special, you talked about how you learned to be a man from your dad. But I'm curious about what you learned about manhood and masculinity from your son?

That sometimes you have to work your femininity. It's okay to be in touch with your feminine. It's okay to be vulnerable. It's okay to express yourself. It's okay to unstrap from your masculinity and your ego. Sometimes that takes you not to have a different approach. Sometimes it's not about trying to teach them. Maybe God's trying to teach you something. It taught me to be a lot accepting and unconditional and even forgiving of myself. It's okay to have stupid thoughts. It's okay to forgive your sofa having a point of view that's not completely popular or evolved. It's okay to have those small feelings, those insecure things, those egotistical thoughts that's like, No, I think I can control everything. Then God breaks you down and life breaks you down. When you You realize that you're crumpled and you're on your knees, that's when God can just whisper to you and you're like, Oh, that's what you're trying to teach me. I'm very grateful to my child. I love that baby because that's my first born. I can't say what I am as a father. They can say what I am as a father. When I'm gone, I hope I left them with a whole lot of love and a whole lot of memories.

What if I was flawed, wherever I wasn't able to show I hope they forgive that.

You've referred a couple of times to hearing God or God talking to you. Do you remember the last thing God said to you or the last thing that you remember feeling like it was coming from God?

For me, my God speaks to me every day. He's in everything I do, even in my jokes, even in my experience, even in the darkness. God gave me a gift, to stay joyful through dark things. He gave me a gift, and I'm going to give that gift as much as I can, as long as I can. And that will be my life's identity, is that in the worst moments, I was able to try and find a smile and hold my hand up through the rubble and go, Hey, guys, take this one with you.

Well, Marlin, you know, jeez Louise, you got a salty mouth, but I just think you're a heck of a guy.

Jeez Louise is my favorite.

I'm going to keep you on number, bro. Any time I need the white guy voice.

It's been a darn pleasure talking to you.

A darn tooting time.

That's Marlin Weyand's Good Grief will be available on Prime Video, June fourth. When reached for comment during the fact-checking of this episode, Bob Weinstein disputes that Marlin was strong-armed or that the negotiations were cutthroat. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Affim Shapiro. Original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano. Photography by Devon Yalkin. The rest of the team is Priya Matthew and Wyatt Orm. Our executive producer is Allison Benedict. Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Ronan Borelli, Isaac Jones, Maddie Macielo, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnik. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. And to read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes. Com/theinterview. Next week, my co-host Lulu Garcia-Nvaro speaks with Charlemagne the God.

If me as a Black man, if I criticize Democrats, then I'm supporting MAGA. But if I criticize Donald Trump and Republicans, then I'm a Democratic shell. Why can't I just be a person who deals in nuance?

I'm David Markezi, and this is the interview from the New York Times..