This is the interview, a new show from the New York Times. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. I first arrived in the Middle east in 2002 during the second intifada, or palestinian uprising. I lived in Jerusalem and reported on Israelis and Palestinians off and on for the following decade. There were stretches of horrific violence while I was there. But even during the darkest moments, I saw that many people on both sides of the conflict believed that peace could be achieved. That no longer feels true. Since Hamas attacked Israel on October 7, killing over 1000 Israelis and capturing hostages, Israel's response has been swift and brutal. More than 30,000 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed, the majority of them civilians, according to the local authorities. Most of Gazas infrastructure has been destroyed, and international pressure is mounting on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to end the war and to avoid a new one with Iran. In this moment, I wanted to talk to one of Netanyahus most vocal critics inside Israel, Yair Lapid. Lapid is the official leader of the israeli opposition. Hes a former journalist, tv host, and actor who entered israeli politics over a decade ago, founding a centrist party called Yashatid.

He briefly became prime minister of Israel in 2022, and he remains a member of the Knesset, or israeli parliament. After October 7, he refused to join Netanyahus war cabinet. Hes called for new elections to replace the current government. And hes publicly endorsed a two state solution, something Netanyahu has actively worked against. For my first episode of this new show, I spoke to Lapid about the war and what comes next. We talked twice. And like all conversations about the Middle east, these were complicated and emotional. Here's my interview with Yair Lapid. Mister Lapid, before we dig in on specifics, can you just tell me as an israeli leader, as an israeli citizen, how you're feeling about this moment in israeli history? I mean, we've seen just a slew of unprecedented things happen.

This is so true. How do I feel about this? I feel, I guess, separate about this as a political leader and as an Israeli. As an Israeli, I'm as worried as I ever been. I feel the fragility of our society. I feel the pain. I meet with the hostage family and discuss with them the endless pain and fear and agony they have. And of course, there's no way for me not to imagine me being in their place if my children were there or my mother was there, held by a terror organization. And I'm haunted by memories of October 7, by the implications on our security. As a political leader, I'm worried. But a different kind of worried because I don't think we have the right leadership to handle the moment. And I feel a little uncomfortable discussing this in English with the New York Times because traditionally we used to say, no, no, we're not going to get into israeli politics while dealing with the international media. But this is so extreme and so painful. So what we need is a restart as a nation, as people. And on top of this, I feel misunderstood.

Like you personally or the country? Both.

But mostly the country. I feel that we are fighting an existential war. I don't think people understand the level of fear and angst. I don't think people, people, I mean, the international community, the international media. Sometimes it is horrifying to me to see this footage of young people marching in american campuses, shouting from the river to the sea. And then you ask them, do you know what river it is or what sea it is? And they have no clue. So they are putting us on the side of the bad guys without even knowing what happened. What have we been going through? So if you feel that there is a mixture of feelings that I'm describing, you're right, it is a mixture, but none of it is really great.

You came to the US earlier this month to meet with us political leaders, including Secretary of State Tony Blinken, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer. I do want to ask you how you think Mister Netanyahu has handled relations with the current us administration. I mean, it could be argued that the prime minister's government has, at certain moments, almost tried to embarrass the Biden administration. I'm thinking of when Secretary of State Blinken went to Tel Aviv and on the same day a new settlement expansion in the West bank was announced. Biden has been a real friend to Bebe. But is Bibi a friend to Biden? No.

And it is heartwarming the way the president has handled this because he was able to maintain the idea that supporting Israel is his historic role as an american president. And he's done so in an election year, which is even more impressive to me because right now, part of what is so dangerous in the current phase of the relations is that I put it this way. I don't think Israel is going to be the reason for anyone to win or lose an american election. But if President Biden will lose the election, there's going to be a lot of people in the Democratic Party who are going to say it's because of Israel, or at least this is going to be one of the claims. And then Israel, instead of being an electoral currency or value or an advantage has become a liability, which is horrible.

You blame that on Prime Minister Netanyahu or you blame that on the war itself, because we've seen an impassioned pro palestinian movement here in the US that fundamentally seems to have shifted the way the public views Israel.

Well, blame is complicated. First and foremost, I blame it on a cynical, this is not even pro Palestinian, a pro islamic, pro fundamentalism, radical islamic movement that is using the lack of knowledge, mostly from american youngsters who know nothing about. And they are buying this as part of the ongoing struggle between the oppressors and those who are oppressed or between white privileged people and people who are not. And, you know, we keep telling them, you know, Anna Frank was not a white privileged kid, and the story is not what you are told. And how come you are marching in favor of people who want to kill and Jews? Because they're Jews, because this is the way Hamas, Hezbollah and the islamic jihad are, and they're supporting them against the democratic country. This is, to me, unbelievable in so many ways. But I also blame an israeli government who doesn't understand or doesn't seem to care about its primary duty to make this easier for those who support us in the United States to be supportive while not, for example, making sure settlers violence is restrained, while not making sure we're doing what needs to be done in terms of explaining what is really happening in the war in Gaza.

And you know what? Not doing the simple things like saying, yes, our heart is broken when children are dying in Gaza because children are not supposed to die in grown ups wars and because we have no war with children. And we try to do our utmost to avoid from hurting the innocent. And this is a very dense populated area. This is a very cruel war against an enemy that uses his own people, his own children as human shields. And casualties are sometimes inevitable. But we are sorry. And we are, you know what the ridiculous thing is? We are doing our best. The israeli defense army is doing its best to avoid this. And yet the government is not saying so out loud because they're afraid of some ignorant, I don't know, populist voices that might say they are soft on handling the war. This is just outrageous to me.

I mean, you say that Israel is sorry for the great loss of palestinian life. But one of the big points of contention, not only here in the United States, but globally, is that very fact that there has been a restriction of aid, that Israel has been using massive bombs in the Gaza Strip. And as you note, it is densely populated, that it has been flattened. Do you agree with the measures taken so far and the conduct of the war?

Well, there's no simple answer. Basically, we should have pushed inside Gaza more aid, and we are doing so now after way too long. But there's something to be said before that. What is the alternative? Because right now to engage in this war has only one alternative, and this is being murdered. I mean, we never asked for this war. We never wanted this war. And we only went out for this war because our children were burned alive, because our elderly were killed, because we have hostages in the terror tunnels and they raped women and they conquered villages. And more than that, they have openly said they mean Hamas, that if they have a chance, they'll do it again. And therefore we are in Gaza to make sure it will never happen again. October 7 was the worst day in the history of the jewish people since the Holocaust. So it is our duty to make sure it will never happen again. And therefore, we were forced, and I want to emphasize this, forced into Gaza and into this war the way that.

This war has been conducted, the fact that Gaza is going to be left in tatters, theres been an enormous loss of life. Weve seen this in other parts of the world in which the next generation, what they learn from that is that a group like Hamas actually is their representative. At least they defend themselves, I guess. How in the conduct of this war, is this actually going to increase Israel's security?

You know, on, I think it was on October 11, four days after the massacre, President Biden gave the first speech about what happened, and he said, there, there is such a thing in life as pure evil. And I think he was signaling to those of us who are saying, you know, you know, everything is relative. Everybody has their own narrative. Narrative. Every story has two sides to it. No, sometimes there is right and wrong in this world. Sometimes there is justice and injustice. Hamas is a murderous bunch of people who, they want to kill us because who we are, not because something we did and because they are religious fanatics. The only way to handle them is to fight them. And you know what? I give more credit to the Palestinians. And I said, maybe not in this generation, but maybe the next generation, they will choose good over evil. They will choose an advanced society over a society that is dedicating itself to death and destruction.

They will.

I mean, what you are saying is, and of course, I'm not holding this against you because I know you're just asking the question, but basically, what the implication of what you're saying is that there's Palestinians are not capable of making right choices. Well, I think they might be capable of making right choices. I have maybe more trust in them than you are. And I think they can choose life over death and building over destruction. It is possible. And the problem is we don't find enough Palestinians right now who are willing to make this choice.

Mister Lapid, as I hear you speaking, I hear things that remind me of certain comments that I've heard Mister Netanyahu make. And so.

Oh, now we're going into insults?

No, I think.

No, no, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

It's just not insults. I am wondering. You very deliberately did not join the war cabinet. Can you tell me why you didn't you lead the opposition? And just hearing you speak about your defense of the conduct of the war, I'm wondering what you are in opposition to.

Part of it is because somebody has to say out loud, we have to maintain our democratic spine. We have to make sure we are handling this at least the best that we can. And we have to understand that the future lies also with discussing this with other Palestinians like the Palestinian Authority. And also, I think having an opposition during wartime is even more important than it is during peacetime in a democracy. This country needs someone who will speak about the future in different terms. We need in this country somebody who will be able to talk to the american administration or to the american political realm in a different language. And we need people who will say, let us remember that we don't want to be like them. We want to be different. This is what makes us strong. And besides, I feel that Prime Minister Netanyahu is part of what led us, has a huge responsibility to what led us to the current situation. And sitting behind him and becoming front or legitimizing his premiership doesnt seem to be like a good idea. The people of Israel need to know there is a possibility for a different future for them.

But yes, there are views in which. I mean, im an israeli patriot. I think the israeli army is conducting itself in terrible, sometimes impossible circumstances, in an honorable way, and doing its best to avoid hurting the innocent. And therefore, I feel obligated to defend the way the israeli defense forces are dealing with themselves. But on the other hand, when something terrible, like when we heard when Israel accidentally killed the employees of the World kitchen Organization, I will be the first one to say, listen, we are sorry, this shouldn't have happened. And to demand there will be an investigation, to demand that there will be results to these investigations. So I think this voice is necessary. So I think I did the right thing staying out of government.

This brings us to this moment in Israel. You have called for new elections, but meanwhile the situation with Iran has also escalated. It's no longer a shadow war where the two parties avoid direct conflict. What do you think needs to happen? Do you still think there needs to be new elections?

Yes, because this is not ideal, of course, to have an election within when the fighting is still going on and we don't know where it's going, but we're only dealing now. And we have dealt with since October 7 bad options. We just have bad options. And between the bad options, an election, a quick election, we can have it in 60 days. And an election day is just a day. But basically we dont have the right government for the challenges we have. So we have to make the effort and replace this government with a government that can deal with the war with the Iranians, with the relations with the american administration, create an alliance with the Saudis, with the Emirates, with others, in order to change the course not only of Israel, but also the entire Middle east and make this into an anti iranian alliance. So what we need to do is to recreate and rejuvenate the alliance we have with the moderate sunni states. For this to happen, we need to have with them a discussion that talks both about the Iranians and the Palestinians, because this is their demand, that this is also for our own good.

And therefore we need to be able to tell them, yes, we are going to work with the Palestinian Authority and we're going to start in Gaza because we have to rebuild and reconstruct Gaza and rehabilitate Gaza. And we have to do this with the Saudis, with the Emirates, and with the Palestinian Authority.

And so what should happen to Gaza and the Palestinians after the war? Who should pay for the rebuilding? Who should govern it? Where should the displaced people go? I mean, specifically, I'm just wondering what your particular vision is.

Well, we should build an alliance of, as I said, the moderate sunni states, the Palestinian Authority, the international community, United States, the European Union, whoever is these days showing so much concern, and Israel in order to start rebuilding and replacing Hamas, because as long as Hamas is there and Hamas is active and Hamas has control over the territory, there will be no future for the people of Gaza. They have to understand this. But basically, if you ask me, in 2021, I presented a plan that was named economy for security. I'm free translating this from Hebrew now, which meant, let's give the people of Gaza an economic future in return of displacing Hamas with something more positive. So what do we know about these people? We know that they are not Hamas.

Mister Lapid, I just want to jump in here.

Yeah, go ahead.

You're talking about actually what has been a very old idea. I mean, as you know, I covered Israel and the palestinian territories for many years, and the idea of giving economic prosperity to the Palestinians has been bandied about for decades. But very little of this debate has been about the occupation for many years, including when you were prime minister. There was a sense that when it came to the Palestinians, the status quo could simply be accepted and ignored. The idea that Palestinians would want their own self determination, their own state could be put aside, and that somehow economic prosperity could be a substitution. Do you think that idea was wrong? Were you wrong?

Well, I never said this, but. So I wasn't wrong. I always said the difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians is that. And people tend not to understand this, not you, because you covered, well, you.

Just said it now that economics is the.

No, no.

Is the path forward.

No, but I didn't say it. Instead of self recognition, instead of the two state solution, I said, you asked me about Gaza specifically. The problem in Gaza specifically is the rebuilding of Gaza. But if I may, the difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians, the Israelis main concern is security. The palestinian main concern is self recognition and respect. And I understand this and I understand that in the end of the road, what we need is to have two states, one hopefully in peace, living in peace, one next to each other, one should be stronger than the other, or the other one should be demilitarized. I mean, the economy is. You just asked me specifically about Gaza, but the answer about the Palestinians is, is that, yes, I, again, I support on the long term, and after all security measurements have been implemented, the idea that these two people will separate, but I want to separate from them, which is, it's not a favor I'm doing the Palestinians. It's for my own good. And separating from the Palestinians should come from a position of power. Because of the horrific events that happened to us lately and not so lately.

I want to step back for a moment and talk about whats happening inside Israel. I mean, the country was reaching a boiling point even before October 7. There were hundreds of thousands of people in the streets every weekend protesting the Netanyahu governments plans for judicial reform. You know, reservists were threatening not to serve. And there's been this growing conflict between the religious and the secular. It seems to me like the country is at war with itself. It's as unstable, as unsure as I've ever seen it. What do you see?

I agree, I agree. And I worried. I'm worried and I feel that this is part of the existential threat. And I feel that one of the reasons Hamas has decided to invade us and kill all those people is because he looked at the israeli government and he said to himself, well, this is my moment. It's not like Hamas didn't want to kill jews. Two years ago, three years ago, four years ago, they always wanted to kill Jews, but they felt that the israeli government is weakening the state in a way it wasn't weakened before, and therefore this is their chance. And they did. And you're right, I'm as worried as I ever been for the future of our country. For those of us who are history buffs, we know that sometimes it takes only one really bad government in order to, I don't want to say destroy, but weaken a country from within significantly. And we have the wrong government for what we need, and we will need to replace it in order to build a better future.

Mister Lapid, thank you very much. And it's actually not the complete end of our conversation because I'm going to talk to you in a few days.

Talk to you soon.

After the break. I call Mister Lapid back. This is something we're going to be doing on this show. I was glad to be able to put some of my lingering questions to Mister Lapide, and he told me more about why he feels misunderstood.

So the thing is that now, in order to get the sympathy and the empathy of the western world, I have to remind them every 5 seconds that we are the victims in this is to me is a horrible idea. Hi Lulu, how are you?

This is the interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. Mister Lapid, the reason I wanted to talk to you is because I wanted to understand, you know, what the current israeli opposition stands for. The opposition that I knew when I was there around 2012 that no longer exists. As you know, the left is gone now. And so I wanted to sort of understand what kind of opposition you represent. As we've been talking, what ive heard about is, as it comes to the war, theres really not a lot of opposition at all. And Israel is being accused of genocide, of war crimes. And as weve talked, youve defended the conduct of the war and youve referred to yourself as an israeli patriot. But I suppose my question is, can patriotism not also be defined as questioning the conduct of this war?

Of course it is. I assume I was reacting. It is not to you, but to what I feel is the betrayal of the intellectuals, meaning that people, the intellectuals of the west or some of them, has betrayed the idea of complexity of is this either genocide or existential war for Israel, or are there other options? Because what I think is that, and this is my duty as the leader of the israeli opposition, is to tell the israeli government, you need to handle this war better than you do now. We understand the need, of course, to defend the country, to defend the people, to react to what happened on October 7, and to eliminate all Hamas military capabilities, and on the other hand, to stay what we are, which is a democracy that feels about human rights, that is doing its best in terms of defending the idea of humanity. And as we have discussed, defenders in circumstances that are no less than horrible. And the dialog I have or we have with the outside world is either with people who are chanting slogans they don't really understand or who are determined to make this into a one sided story.

No, Israel is not committing genocide. No, Israel is not doing anything but defend itself in a war we didn't want. And these are not pro government sayings. This is just the reality of people who are hurting. And the fact that I oppose the government so much doesn't mean I need to oppose the idea of self defense.

Yeah, I understand that. And I feel what I'm thinking about actually is just what it means in a moment like this to effectively, even if you care about Israel and the Israelis say this is not okay. You know, earlier you disparaged the young people in the US marching for palestinian rights, and you say that they're clueless and misled.

Yeah, I don't think they're marching for your palestinian rights. I think they're marching against palestinian rights. I think what they're doing is against the best interest of the palestinian people.

Yeah, but doesn't that dismiss their sort of legitimate concerns and the people may have generally, about the civilian deaths?

Well, I think they should understand that there is a reason why everything is happening is happening, and the reason is Hamas. The reason is not Israel. I mean, not to be able to even track why what is happening is happening is a total lack of even, I don't know, intellectual dignity or at least curiosity to what is going on. And, you know, I was thinking after our first discussion, I was trying to figure out, because I told myself, well, at one point or another, I was defensive and she was defensive. Why was it so. I don't know about, you but I know about myself and the reason is because I refuse to be involved in the context in which who is the victim? I am done being a victim. I'm done being a victim since June 1945. So the thing is that now in order to get the sympathy and the empathy of the western world, I have to say, to remind them every 5 seconds that we are the victims in this is, to me is a horrible idea. I rather tell them, listen, we're fighting for their life and we're going to do whatever is necessary in order to win this fight because we are done being victims.

Now the more popular thing to do is to go into a fistfight with the Palestinians about the question, who's hurting more? But this is a pleasure I'm not going to give anyone. So maybe this is why I became a bit frustrated in our previous conversation, because I was supposed to prove that I am more of a victim than the Palestinians. I am no victim, is a proud citizen of a great country who is fighting for its life and in terrible circumstances while trying our best not to hurt the Palestinians because they are living here with us and we need to find ways to make sure they have a future as well.

It's always struck me as a fundamental disconnect because Israel doesn't feel there is enough acknowledgement of the existential threat that they're under. You're articulating this right now.

True.

And Israel's critics on the palestinian question want Israel to see that it can't be a true democracy with real security when it oppresses and occupies millions of Palestinians. So I'm wondering, can you understand that point of view? Of course.

And since you have covered Israel, then, you know, unlike others, the numerous time now that Israel has offered the Palestinians statehood, and they refused again and again and again and again.

But you know, there's another version of this story.

So I guess, you know what? Yeah, there is another version of the story, but it's a. It's not the right one. And I was involved. So I know. And I want to tell you something else. I walked one day to a meeting with a very smart foreign minister. It was years ago. She was, she was one of the smartest people I know. And she came into the room and she started the conversation by telling me that, like everybody does, people always said, you know, we recognize Israel's right to defend itself. And I said, why are you saying this? And she said, what do you mean? I said, do you go into a meeting with the french foreign minister and tell him that you recognize France's right to defend itself. Is there any other country you tell that they have a right to defend itself? Why are you emphasizing the fact I wasn't angry with her. I was just curious about the question. Why is it that she felt the need to tell me that I'm entitled to defend myself and not to die silently? Now I think you and I have succeeded, which is a great success, to go that far into our conversation without mentioning the possibility that maybe it is because we are Jews, but maybe it is because we are Jews.

This is something ive heard a lot from Jews outside of Israel and obviously inside Israel. But you also know the other side of this, which is that many Palestinians look at the context of the occupation, look at how they have been treated, and say that this context isn't as simple as who is the victim of this particular cycle of violence.

Well, I don't want this cycle of violence. And no Israeli in his right mind, we have our own fair share of lunatics. I am not going to defend them. But the majority of Israelis doesn't want this cycle of violence. And if somebody will enable us to separate from the Palestinians, meaning if we will have somebody to talk to on the palestinian side about separating, there will be a vast majority of Israelis for this separation. And the problem is right now. Listen, you are hearing. It's not. It is, again, it's not against you. What you're hearing is frustration, because I do not seem to put my mind around the fact that five minutes after the worst massacre of Jews since the Holocaust, we are already defending ourselves from people who are telling us, well, we question your right to defend yourself because this is. I don't know, it's, again, you're part of the white privileged world, and therefore you're not entitled to self defense. It doesn't make sense to me. It frustrates me. And I hate the idea that I keep telling myself that I'm glad that my father is not alive.

To Sidi, your father, Tommy Lapid, who was, of course, a minister and a Holocaust survivor. And a Holocaust survivor. I remember him well.

His entire life was the way out of the basement in the Budapest ghetto in which the Nazis put him in. And then if he was alive now, he would be locked with me and my daughter with special needs in the basement of my house because somebody is trying to kill us again. So this, the fact that we do not seem to be able to rescue ourselves from being locked in a basement, surrounded by people who wants to kill us is pretty frustrating for the people of Israel.

This is my last question. But this is a question about the future, because poll by the Israel Democracy Institute shows that 63% of the jewish israeli public now do not support an independent palestinian state. You say that is because of the history, and that very well may be true. And you've made it very clear where you stand. You want to see the Netanyahu government resign. You do believe in a two state solution, but it seems that even if Bibi goes, his politics remain popular. So where does that leave? I guess, the opposition after this war, the very prospect of peace. How do you move Israelis to your side?

The whole idea, I mean, politics can be, as you very well know, horrible, but also, sometimes, very rarely also beautiful. And it is only beautiful is when you get a chance to change people minds, to talk to them, to be able to communicate to them new ideas. And it's always a battle of ideas, and it's the only battle worth living for. I am, as I said and you quoted, I'm a patriot. And you're right. Patriotism is sometimes telling people what they don't want to hear. You know, you always have this question about what leadership is. And what people tend to forget is that leadership is always opposite your own people, not the enemy. Opposite the enemy. Get two good generals and they will fight the war for you. And besides, there is simplicity into it. Because it's a war, they are against you. Then you have to fight back. When you go to your own people and tell them things they don't want to hear and convince them in one way or another, this is what we're going to try and do. We're going to try and make the Netanyahu government go away because it's disastrous and dangerous and irresponsible and nonfunctional on top of this.

And then we're going to tell the Israelis, we have to make a decision about our future. And this decision is going to be based on the idea that I discussed with you, that in order to stay the strongest country in the Middle east, we also need to stay the strongest democracy in the Middle east. And in order to be that democracy, we have to start the long journey, the 1000 miles, the first step of the 1000 miles journey to separate from the Palestinians.

Mister Lapid, thank you very much. I appreciate your time.

Thank you.

That's yair Lapid. This conversation was produced by Wyatt Orme. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon. Mixing by Afim Shapiro. Original music by Dan Powell and Marianne Lozano. Photography by Avishag Shahr Yashoov the rest of the team is Priya Matthew and Seth Kelly. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. Special thanks to Zev Levy, Isaac Jones, Maddie Maciello, Nick Pitman, Rory Walsh, Kathy Ryan, Gail Bichler, Ben Granjanet, Snigda Koirilla, Renan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Mahima Chablany, Jeannie Choi, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann and Sam Dolenik. Thanks so much for listening. And we've got more for you to listen to. Since this is the first week of our new show, we're launching with two episodes. My co host is David Marchese, and this week he's talking to Anne Hathaway about her new movie, the idea of you, and about how she's made peace with not making everyone happy.

One of the ways that you make your way is like, oh, if I do this, then that'll make someone else happy. And maybe that's what I'm supposed to be doing. It takes a really long time to go. Well, it doesn't really matter if you don't know who you are unless you.

Just want an identity.

That's all about pleasing people, which I suppose is perfect.

Valid as well.

But I'm not that nice.

If you like what you're hearing, subscribe to the interview wherever you get your podcasts. And to read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com. The interview I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is the interview from the New York Times.