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What were you saying? You suck. No, it's not that embarrassing.

You just you get like sometimes when I get nervous, my eye will start watering.

Like, I don't think that's odd. That's probably pretty normal. I mean, your system's fired up and, you know, your eyes are probably trying to clear themselves. Right? Maybe, you know, I mean, I'm just speculating.

Maybe maybe people will message me after this this podcast and be like that happens to me, too. And I'll feel better, like I'm sure it doesn't sound that odd.

That's certainly not embarrassing. So I don't know why I'm embarrassed by eyes watering if you're nervous.

OK, thanks for being here. I really appreciate it.

I'm super. I'm always happy to come.

Well, we've been talking and we've been talking about immune systems. And this is one of the main things that I wanted to talk to you about.

Like what are the causes? All we're hearing is shelter in place, wear a mask, don't touch anybody. Don't go outside.

We're not hearing what can you do to strengthen your immune system.

And I think as a public health, public service, you know, health thing, this is one of the most important things. And I think you can really focus and concentrate on an actual thing that you could be proactive about during this weird time.

Yeah, well, definitely. I think focusing on on, you know, lifestyle factors that you can, you know, possibly modern. Rate your immune system and strengthen it is important. What's interesting is that the immune system. You know, after doing just so much, of course, the past couple of months, I've been nothing but like reading about the immune system and trying to understand, of course, this new virus, sars-cov-2. But I've just learned so much, you know, over the past couple of months.

I'm not an immunologist and not an infectious disease expert.

So, you know, while I've had some training in immunology, I definitely, you know, didn't know, don't know everything there is to know.

But what just, you know, doing some some reading about like, why are people's immune systems so different? Like, that's that's the big thing. Like when you take like a young population, as you get older, your immune system does decline. I mean, there's lots of changes that occur. But like in general, like people have different immune systems. And what's interesting is that there's been tons of like genetic studies done on like, you know, identical twins and they're followed over time.

And what's found is that genetics is not the major regulator of immune function. It's something in the environment. And what this is what surprised me, and I know it's not totally going to answer your question, but we can totally get to that. But the main one of the main things besides age that regulates immune system is like previous exposure to viruses like. So I thought that was really interesting.

And in particular, one one virus, the systematic megalo virus DMV.

Did, you know, like between 50 to 80 percent of the U.S. population has it like at least by the time they're like an adult has it permanently or so it's a it's a herpes virus.

So it's a lifelong thing. And this is why it basically so it it changes your immune system. What are the symptoms of it? Most people that are healthy don't ever know they have it because there's no symptoms.

So yeah, unless you're immunocompromised, but most people that are healthy, they don't know, you know, that they're infected with it.

Say it again. What does the cytomegalovirus.

It's CLV sounds like something Godzilla finds. There it is. So what's so.

But here's the interesting thing about this virus, is that it so this is one of the major things multiple studies have been looking at, like, you know, just immune variability. And it's like CVS's been identified in multiple studies. And I think the reason it got me interested because I was like 80, almost 80 percent.

I mean, I could have it right. Totally have it. And it changes the immune function. It's totally different between young and old.

So so when you're younger and if you have it, it actually enhances immune function. So they've done studies where, like, they they they have given people influenza vaccine.

And oftentimes these vaccine studies are used to kind of test the immune response and like how you're how robust your immune response is because you're you're given a vaccine and there's all different types of vaccines, you know, pieces of an antigen or different types of, you know, ways that you can you can expose someone to a bacteria or virus, but you have a response to it. And the responses, you know, involves your adaptive immunity. You make what's called neutralizing antibodies that, you know, basically eventually bind to the virus and neutralize it, prevent it from entering the cell.

So people with that have CMB, they're young, have a really robust response to the vaccine, much better. But older people have the complete opposite where it's like, you know, deleterious. And the reason for that, scientists think, is because basically. This virus, it's stuck with you lifelong, and it kind of reactivates every few years and like every time it reactivates, it kind of trains your T cells, you know, which are part of your immune system to to become focused on that CMB.

And so as you get older, your your T cell population becomes more focused on fighting that virus and less so on other viruses that you're exposed to.

But this virus doesn't have any symptoms.

Most healthy people don't have any symptoms with it. I know. It's really like it's really weird. So what I'm wondering and the reason I'm even like going here has nothing to do with, you know, taking vitamin C or zinc. And you can talk about that stuff and vitamin D, but I just thought it was so damn interesting because we hear all these stories in the news where, you know, some people are asymptomatic, some people are, you know, than some people are just really getting, you know, hard hit.

And these people, let's say they're more age matched. Right. We know that elderly people are more prone to a severe form, but it just made me think, what if this you know, previous previous viral exposure to something like CMB is is kind of like also kind of shaping people's immune responses in some way? Surely people are going to be looking looking at that. But I just thought that was a really interesting thing to come across, you know, and then the other sort of on the same, on the same along the same lines as previous you know, previous virus exposure is like something that really seems to be something that is a main regulator of how people like what how you're immune, you know, what your immune response is, you know.

And so.

So you mean by how many times you've caught the flu, how many times you've whether you're actually going to it, how you respond to it, you know?

Yeah. I mean, like, if you get the flu, is it going to not is it like a three day kind of thing or is it going to knock you out for two weeks kind of thing?

That's what I mean. Right. So, I mean, if you if you get a sample like there's been these series of surveys where they basically that just means they both get get a sample of plasma and look for different antibodies, viral antibodies, and they'll find at any given point a person has like antibodies against 10 different viruses just randomly, you know, so you're you're constantly being exposed to viruses. You know, you're not always you just don't succumb to them.

Right.

You're not always getting sick. And so, you know, like another really interesting kind of thing is like, you know, there's so the sars-cov-2 virus is part of a family of of coronaviruses called the beta coronaviruses. So Class Kov one, the virus that was responsible for the original SARS outbreak in 2002 or something, the Mars One in the Middle East.

And then there's two different ones that are responsible for the common cold. Now, coronaviruses are only responsible for between like 15 to 30 percent of common cold cases. So it's not like the common cold is the illness you get, but there's lots of different viruses that can cause it. But what's interesting is that there's been studies showing that these two beta coronaviruses that are responsible for some of the common cold cross react with.

So there's one that cross reacts with the Sajko, one which has a very it's very the sequence is very homologous to sars-cov-2 virus. And it's also been show that the sars-cov-2 and antibodies against the Sajko one can neutralize the common cold one. So there's like cross immunity happening between these other viruses. Right. And so there's been some studies by the CDC on the on sars-cov-2 where they found basically that people that are infected with SA sars-cov-2 also boost their antibodies against the the common cold one.

So, you know, there's there certainly, I think, a good hypothesis to be made that potentially, you know, one or two of these common cold viruses, could the antibodies you make against them could also somehow maybe, maybe, you know, interact with the sars-cov-2 virus, potentially neutralize it?

I mean, that's a big open question that seems possible without we don't have an answer to that. I think we will like there's large there's large scale Serov surveys being done. I know at least three that I think his name is Dr Michael Bush. He's at UCSF. He's like he's doing like really large surveys where they're they're they're going to be analyzing Cierra from people from like, you know, blood donors and stuff and like following them over the course of several years to see, you know, just basic understand more.

So now, what is the speculation, if there's any sort of uniform speculation as to why when you hear about prisons, where a lot of these prisoners I don't know if you've seen that there's a video going around where one prisoner had SA sars-cov-2, covid-19 or whatever and spitting into a cup and then passing it around to all these other inmates so they could all get it so that they get released.

So there's because they're releasing people, especially California, which is so wacky, they're releasing sex offenders. And there's been some. Really high profile releases of these horrible people that should be in jail probably forever, and they're releasing them.

It's like it it's really disturbing. But what would cause other than something like that, what would cause all of these prisoners to not just be positive? That makes sense, but to all be asymptomatic? Is there any speculation as to why these large groups there was another one that was a meatpacking plant where most of the people were asymptomatic as well.

I wasn't I wasn't aware of the meat packing, one being asymptomatic, but I did read about the one in prison.

And it was like blowing my mind like percent like what's going on? Like, that's insane.

It's kind of like you read these stories. So so this is like there's one thing that it's important to keep in mind when we say asymptomatic, like, you know, there's asymptomatic and like a person that never actually gets symptoms. Right. And then there's asymptomatic. So there was a study done at the CDC, I don't know, a month ago, maybe a little more, where they measured like they did it.

They did this nasal pharyngeal swab test in a nursing home, 70 something people and 13 of them tested, asymptomatic, like they had no symptoms, but they tested positive. But then they went back a week later and 10 of those people had symptoms and three were asymptomatic. So unless, like, there's another like if you test someone and they're asymptomatic at that time of testing, they could be symptomatic. Right. In other words, like, you have to go back a week later and see if they have symptoms because that that's really important.

So so let's say even, you know, you know, 60 percent or asymptomatic, like I don't know if they went back and tested a week later, if it was just like a single time. Right.

But that's what that's what this is. What got me thinking about this whole thing was, you know, in the prisons and jails, I mean, they're in close quarters and they're you got one virus that someone's exposed to and they all get it right.

So, like, what if there's, I don't know, the CMB, you know, percentage there, but what if the coronaviruses are going around there? What if what if, you know, some some common cold coronavirus has gone around and that, you know, those antibodies that they've made to neutralize that coronavirus beta coronavirus are somehow helping with the sars-cov-2 like. I would love to see that.

Tested, too known to immunize people, did vaccinate people when they go to jail. I was trying to figure that out as well because like the tuberculosis, tuberculosis, one of the types of vaccines they do for TB, I think they do it in like Japan and some other countries where they've got a really low death rate. And so they're kind of that's a test. That's a clinical trial that's now going on where they're trying to test. But I was trying to figure out, is there a vaccination as a result?

Because I would imagine it would be simple for them to do that. You're entering into prison. They just vaccinate.

You just I couldn't come to an answer. I was I was searching for that the other day. I was trying to figure that out.

But I think that's also a really good I mean, there's a ton of theories. Right? Right. I mean, it's just you could go on and on and on.

But the whole the thing that I just think that I would like to see more research and I'm just hoping, you know, that that CDC and other people are investigating these these other the cross community. Right. Like if there's if there's antibodies that you're making against another coronavirus, beta coronavirus that's in the same family as this SARS one, no one's had SARS, one in the United States, you know, so like that one doesn't that that's not as relevant as.

But the common cold, you know, that's that's very common. Right.

So, you know, if if 15 to 30 percent of the common cold is composed of coronaviruses, we know at least two of those coronavirus are in the same family that have been identified to make at least in one case, there's been neutralizing antibodies. So there has been cross the immunity. Then you'd think, why?

Why not test that? That could get some animal studies started on that.

You know, you can have animal studies.

There was an article that I was reading yesterday that was saying that they're hoping that they've found some antibodies in llamas, that they're hoping they're going to be able to because let's see if we can find this because of these antibodies in llamas, the they're hoping they can either transfer them to people or learn something about how these antibodies are created. But llamas seem to be here. It is. Llamas could be the key to fighting new coronaviruses research says the larger.

It says it may sound bizarre animals, but llamas could be the key to fighting new coronavirus researchers from Belgium. Remember, that's the big lady that was showing you earlier.

She's the health lady.

And the United States published an article this week in the journal Cell that highlights the potential use of Lamba antibodies to prevent covid-19 infections. Antibodies from a four year old Belgian llama named Winter Show Promise in blocking coronavirus from infecting cells, according to research from the University of Texas, Austin, the National Institutes of Health and the Ghent I that went into university studying earlier forms of the coronavirus. Researchers have found an antibody in winter that effectively attached itself in neutralise spike protein in sars-cov-2 one in Cove.

Researchers believe the particular antibody, which has been found in other Lomez as well, can be injected into an uninfected individual to protect them from getting infected with the new coronavirus. That's very interesting. Yeah.

So I think, you know, there's there's lots of avenues for, you know, therapeutics. And, you know, in addition to, like repurposing drugs, monoclonal antibodies, you know, being able to basically identify antibodies that do neutralize sars-cov-2 virus, whether they come from llamas or humans, you know, and basically identify the specific antibody that can bind to that spike protein that you just mentioned, which is that region. It's known that the antibodies bind there and neutralize that.

It's also the region that that is used to get inside of the cell. So monoclonal antibodies, I think, are a really big, you know, possibility for a promising therapeutic because you can then I mean, the problem is growing like large scale manufacturing them. Right. So, like, if you can identify these antibodies and then manufacture them, you can inject them in people and then potentially get some protection. The problem is, is that that's not like it's going to be a short lived protection, like it's going to be it's not like you can it's not like a vaccine where your body's making its own antibodies and they're and they're more longer lived, you know.

But so in areas where people are going to be exposed, perhaps you could give it to them and it would stop them from getting. But how long would you say short lived?

Well, we don't I don't know. I mean, how so?

It's you know, it's probably enough to like if you are a health care worker, your first line, you know, health, you know, first responder people that are definitely like being exposed to large doses of the virus, that that could be a promising area.

But also, I think even just treating patients like that have already been infected. You know, so that's that's also another. So like in combination with some of this other stuff, like from days of yore, which is, you know, it's not like a silver bullet, but it seems like it's also promising, promising probably with a combination of other other factors as well. But, yeah, the monoclonal antibodies is a really I know there's like Regeneron, a big company there.

They're they're growing some large scale ones. I think there's I they they isolated from humanised mice or something. But there's other companies that have isolated from humans that have been infected. So, you know, that's that's definitely a promising area for sure. And a good thing about that is that have you heard of antibody dependent enhancement?

You know, so that's a big concern. All right.

So so basically, when you when your body is exposed to a pathogen like a virus, your your innate immune system, you know, the first line of defense, like neutrophil, things like that are making hydrogen peroxide, trying to kill the virus. But then in the background, your adaptive immune system, and I'm just totally generalizing is, you know, is is also working in the background. And, you know, part of that, an adaptive immune response is, you know, to produce antibodies.

So you have memory B cells that are making antibodies that are specific to bind different regions, epitopes on the virus and neutralize them, prevent them from getting inside of the cell. And so that adaptive immune system usually takes about seven days after you're exposed to the virus.

Right. The problem is antibody dependent enhancement, so sometimes a neutralizing antibody is an antibody that can bind the virus and neutralize it, stop it from entering your cell, right. So it's doing its job, but you sometimes make antibodies that are non neutralizing or don't do as good of a job. They don't bind as tight or something. And then you can have what's called antibody dependent enhancement. And this was like a big problem for the RSV vaccine back in the you know, like most kids get RSV, it's a respiratory tract infection.

The most kids get it by the time they're two, like, there's no vaccine that that that's given. Back in the 60s, there was this antibody dependent enhancement happening. Some clinical studies with toddlers and some problems got really, really sick and a couple died. But what happens is basically the antibody binds that. There's a couple of things antibody binds to the virus and can basically change its confirmation and allow the virus to get into the cell better. So they become like, you know, you get like a higher viral load and then you don't have antibodies to neutralize it.

And it just, you know, it could be more it could be it can lead to death. The other thing that happens is the antibody binds to the virus, doesn't neutralize it, but it like makes this crazy immune complex that, like, activates your immune system to just go haywire and it causes all sorts of pathology. And that's what happened with the RSV toddlers.

So there's a few viruses that this happens with.

And unfortunately, coronavirus is one like this has been identified with the sars-cov-2 one virus. And I think marriage as well. Where. So this is also a problem with vaccines. So like people like giving giving the vaccine people's immune response, some people can have that antibody dependent enhancement. And that's what was shown to happen with these with the Sajko one. There is some non-human primates studies that that did that and also animal studies as well.

So, you know, the thing with monoclonal antibodies is they're a little more specific because, you know, they neutralize and you're like growing them up like you've done all that test as opposed to just letting your immune system do its thing. And then potentially, you know, you may have this like non neutralizing antibody that could cause problems. But that's kind of the concern. And I know that the vaccine people that are working on vaccines are working on them.

It's like they're concerned, I mean, about that and completely trying to, like, figure that all out.

It's such a strange virus. It almost seems like there's multiple viruses.

There are. Yeah. So, I mean, there's and it's funny that because it's kind of connected to this antibody dependent enhancement, there's there's been quite a few different like forms like mutations that have been identified. But to particular in that spike protein region, that's like an important region because antibodies bind there and because that's the region like that, you know, the virus uses to get into the cell. And so there's been there's been two major like strains that have been identified and one of them.

So it's been the Spike region and it's a aspartame to glycine mutation. And basically in in Asia, in China, the the predominant form is the aspartame, the original quote unquote form. And then in Europe and also in North America, this other this other form, the glycine mutant is prominent. And there's been studies that have shown looking at like, OK, looking in parts of Europe, different countries in Europe that have this predominant form that they're basically there's a higher mortality rate, but they didn't actually measure the infected patients.

So, you know, it's kind of like correlation.

But what's interesting is that there's there's actually been a genetic link to this this mutant. So there's studies there's been some large scale and genetic studies that have found that Asians, about 20 percent of Asians have a basically a nucleotide change in a gene that encodes for a protease that's involved in this, you know, basically in allowing this virus to get into the cell. But that basically prevents them from having this new mutant that's predominant in Europe and also in New York, in North America in general.

That's interesting because my friend Michael, who got it, his mom who got it, who's in her 70s, is Asian, and that is she kicked it.

And that is interesting.

So there's something so there. I wonder if she has that. SNEP So we we're our genetic report that we have, like we've got one that's like a new viral. It's a free one where we're kind of like putting some of these interesting snips which don't mean anything. I mean, like, you know, just information that, you know, is interesting. There's a lot of researchers out there trying to, like, figure out if genetics is involved in this.

But the thing that's so interesting about that mutation is that that it's in that spike region and it's where the antibody binds.

And and there's a there's like a theory going around because that specific region, it's been shown in sars-cov-2 one to cause antibody dependent enhancement. So there's a theory that potentially that mutation is causing people's immune system to hyperactivity and basically become more active. And it can lead to a. Severe covid-19 illness that's not been shown like it's not been shown at all, so but it's interesting, right? It's interesting how in Asia and in China particularly, I mean, about one percent of the population, it's like less than one percent has the other mutation, the glycine mutation that's in New York, it's in, you know, in most of the United States.

But that that in less than one percent of the population in China has that form. So weird.

And Japan has a very low mortality rate, correct? Yeah, they do. I know that that I was mentioning that TB vaccine. That's one thing that they're investigating. I mean, there's all sorts of differences in handling the whole, you know, from the beginning just how you how you handle the virus. I mean, like, there's too many factors to, like, say one thing. But, you know, there's there's lots of there's lots of possibilities.

And I think that that I think that eventually there's going to be therapeutics that are identified, you know, not multiple ones maybe. And I think vitamin D is going to potentially play a role there. But I mean, just like things like REM disappear and the monoclonal antibodies and then you eventually, like, you know, a vaccine will, you know, eventually, you know, be be available.

But I think until that until that point, I do think that things will be identified that just kind of help us like deal with this, like better, you know, what is going on with blood types.

One of the things we talked about earlier, you asked my blood type and I said, oh, positive. No wise. Oh, positive. Better.

Well.

There's there's been some data, and this was also identified with sars-cov-2, one that people with Type O blood, they they make antibodies, they make type A antibodies, whereas people with type A blood, they make antibodies against like they make against the B antigen. And so the type of antibodies were identified. So there's been studies looking at people with type O blood or type type of blood and also type B and type O blood. There's like less, less frequency of getting covid-19.

So as opposed to having a severe form, it's just like you're less likely to contract it even more. And it's thought because the type of antibodies that people with type O blood make neutralize the they basically bind to that region, that spike region and neutralize the antibody and prevent it from the virus from entering the cell.

So that's at least that was the mechanism that was shown with Sajko one. So it's thought, oh, well, the same we're seeing the same, you know, pattern where people with Type O are protected from sars-cov-2 possibly. That's that's also why.

But another really interesting thing is that people with type of blood, we were also talking about these like blood clots.

And like I mean, there's all kinds of crazy things you read.

I mean, I'm reading all these publications. And then the other thing is that these publications are being uploaded on, you know, before they're peer reviewed. And I mean, some of them are just a mess. And it's just anyways.

But, you know, you kind of just take it with a grain of salt where these clots are like, you know, there's clots in people that are healthy and young, certainly people that have severe cases, people like older people, people that are pre-existing conditions and stuff, and the type of blood people have lower levels of this Vaun Gillibrand factor, which basically is involved in clotting.

And it's been shown that that Vonne Gillibrand factor also isn't like is higher. It's higher in people with sars-cov-2.

It was shown also be that with sars-cov-2 one and it's involved with clotting.

So having lower levels may somehow even help protect against. That's a theory that hasn't been shown. But what is known is that people with type of blood are are less susceptible to contracting covid-19 that's that's definitely known. But I mean, I think there's so many things there's just there's so many factors that a lot of data that needs to be passed out for sure.

I mean, a lot of data that needs to pass out, a lot of data that needs to be generated.

And and, you know, we need higher quality data. We need, you know, you know, people to repeat stuff.

I mean, like, look what's happened with this hydroxyl chloroquine stuff, right?

I mean I mean, it's just kind of a mess where initially it seemed like it could be helpful. And and then just more and more studies came out where it was not not only not helpful, it was, you know, toxic. It was causing people to have dangerous arrhythmias and stuff. Yeah.

You know, so that's that's kind of the the reason to kind of be cautious when when you have something new and a small one small study just seems like in the beginning at least, they're trying to figure out what the correct treatment was for these people as they were just showing up in mass in the emergency rooms and they didn't really know. And doctors, they varied in how they approached it. My friend Michael, his doctor didn't put him on a ventilator and he said if I put him on a ventilator, he's probably going to die.

Right. Because he said his body is going to stop working because it's it's going to let the ventilator do the breathing for him and it's going to give up. And when he was talking about after the fact, what Michael was talking about was how that is proven to be correct in New York and that some monstrous number, like 80 percent of the people put on ventilators wound up dying, not just New York.

I like life, had friends that are physicians that have like, you know, in New Orleans, I mean, the same thing where it's like a you know, there was someone on my team.

We were looking we were doing some research on this. And I and I didn't sort of dive into the whole thing, but he was he was telling me that ventilators do actually cause more damage to the lungs.

And like like he had been reading some studies to confirm that. And he was pretty certain that that ventilators actually cause damage and actually could induce damage where it's like making it worse. So that's so bad.

I don't know. I don't know all the specifics of that. All I know is that it looking at the statistics, like if you go on a ventilator, I mean, surely it seems like the outcome is not very it doesn't seem like it's going to be very good right now, but it's hard to say.

Is that the cause of it or is it right. You know, or they just that they're so fucked up by the time they get on a ventilator, they just want to dying. Right.

Well, here, like the the there's been some really interesting data looking at like in there's in the Philippines and Indonesia. Where else nor I think New Orleans as well, they've looked at patients that have died and their vitamin D levels, and in Britain, basically, like in the Philippines, you know, people that for like every standard deviation increase in vitamin D levels here in vitamin D levels, you know, the people had like an eight percent or eight fold, eight times less likely to have a severe form of covid-19.

And if they had and they were 20 times less likely to have critical like a critical form of covid-19.

Well, in the in the. So that was the Philippines. In the Indonesia was a really interesting study where, like, they measured vitamin D and this was measured in the patients. There's been some vitamin D studies also where they're like looking at, you know, countries that have been affected the worst and they all have low vitamin D and it's like, OK, well, anyways, that's correlation.

But well, so is this.

But a little it's a little stronger data in the in Indonesia, patients that died 90 of almost 100 percent, it was like ninety eight point something. Percent of patients that died with covid-19 were vitamin D deficient.

Four percent of patients that died from covid-19 were vitamin D ERSEK four percent, only four percent were vitamin D sufficient.

So basically they're all vitamin D deficient, all the ones that are dying. Whoa, crazy, right?

And New Orleans had some crazy, crazy number be the mechanism that would cause. So I think there's. All right. Can we can we get into vitamin. Please do. It's a big I really because of you I take 5000. I use a day.

Awesome. Right now I'm taking 5000. I use a day. You know, 70 percent of the US population has insufficient vitamin D levels, which is considered less than blood levels, less than 30 milligrams nanograms per milliliter.

This is something that your body can generate naturally if you're exposed to the sun on a daily basis. Yes, that's the best way to get it.

It is. But the problem is, is that we don't go outside anymore. And, you know now.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Now more than ever. But we have a terrible recipe, right. Vitamin D deficiency is what makes it worse. And then you're staying inside. So you're not getting any vitamin D. Yeah. You're becoming even more deficient.

You know, like like someone like 28 percent of the U.S. population is actually deficient, like less than 20 nanograms ml. You know, like that's defined deficiency. So there's a lot of people in the United States, as you mentioned, you make it from the sun. So particularly UVB radiation. There's a reason why I want to talk about this. You make it from UVB, radiation exposure. You know, basically it's made in the skin. And but, you know, there certain times of the year, depending on where you live and a more northern latitude where that UVB isn't even hitting the atmosphere.

You're not making vitamin D. Also, if you have darker skin, melanin protects you like the whole, you know, people with darker skin, people from maybe Africa or India or South Asia, the more equatorial regions, they're closer, you know, closer to to to the equator.

And there's more UVB radiation throughout the year. And so as a protective mechanism to not get burned, you have melanin which protects you. Right.

The problem is, is that melanin also blocks your your ability to produce vitamin D, but if you're out in the sun all the time, you know, in a place where you're getting UVB radiation, it's not a problem.

Well, this is the very reason why people in places like Scotland and England have such pale skin. Exactly. Cloudy all the time. So your body sort of develops its own ability to absorb more vitamin. Exactly.

So what happens when you take them? What happens when you take a person from from South Asia, from India, from Africa, and you put them in Sweden or in Minnesota or in the U.K. at a place where UVB radiation doesn't hit most of the year and you don't give them a supplement? What happens is they become severely vitamin D deficient severely.

And what happens when you take I mean I mean, you can throw this on the you can flip flip this over and say, OK, what happens when you take the guy from the UK, the Brit, and put him in Australia, like without any sunscreen or without a hat or no answer? They're going to. Yeah.

So, I mean, do you think that this could be a factor in why so many African-Americans are getting hit so hard? So here's the thing. So African-Americans, there's lots of. All right. African-Americans are in the United States.

There's been studies African-Americans are severely deficient. They're twenty eight times more deficient in vitamin D than than Caucasians.

Yeah, and it's it's because it's because they have darker skin. And, you know, if they're not getting enough sun, they're not getting enough sun because people stay inside, more people stay inside. You know, it's not it's not like the old days when we were out hunter gatherer and out in the sun all the time where, you know, we're inside all the time. We're in school work and our office and our cubicle.

So the CDC, you know, obviously there's been studies showing that African-Americans are more hit, but they didn't really correct for tons of like other factors because socioeconomic status is important. How other health factors, you know, and but there was a big study just released not long ago from from like the National Office of Statistics in Britain or something like that. I don't know what their official name was, but they released some statistics from England and Wales and the I don't know what the correct name to say.

I mean, the blacks, they're basically living in England and Wales are four times more likely to die of covid-19 than than whites when they when they adjusted all that data for socioeconomic status and for other health factors, there were two times more likely to die. So clearly, socioeconomic status and other health factors are playing a role. But there's something else unidentified. And I think it's vitamin D. I think that, you know, so, you know, the vitamin D, like it hasn't looked vitamin E.

I'm not saying that vitamin D is going to prevent you from getting covid-19 or it's a treatment, although I am involved in a clinical study where we're going to be testing a very small open arm study we can talk about. But, you know, I'm not a physician and medical doctor. I've never intubated anyone. So I don't think I'm. Saying that I want people to think I'm saying it's a treatment, I just want to it's a hypothesis that needs to be tested.

And thankfully, there are clinical trials, randomized controlled trials that are now ongoing and there are some that are recruiting.

But just the statistics that you've already listed about vitamin D and the people that had covid-19, those are insane.

It's insane. And also in Sweden, there's a huge population of Somalis that have migrated to Sweden and they have been identified as being severely vitamin D deficient because a lot of the Somalis have also like autism rates are really high there. And there's this link between I published a link also between vitamin D and autism. But so there's been studies looking at vitamin D levels in the Somali population.

I mean, they are so deficient because you're taking again, you're taking someone who's supposed to be who's, you know, evolved to be getting a lot of sun but not burn from it. And then and then putting them in a place where they can't get any vitamin D from the sun. And if they don't get a supplement.

Like they're going to be deficient, you know, and they're so much more like they're like it's wreaking havoc in Sweden on the small population, that is so logical.

Yeah, it's. And then so elderly elderly are like insanely more deficient. I forgot the exact number. Obese, also obese people are like three times more likely to be vitamin deficient in the United States.

Why is that? Because vitamin D is a fat soluble vitamin and it's less it's been shown to be 50 percent less bioavailable. So you have to after you make it in your skin, it's stored in fat and, you know, it's released. And when, you know, basically into the bloodstream and then it gets converted into a hormone, this hormone regulates five percent, more than five percent of the human protein encoded human genome. It's a lot of that's a it's a hormone like can you imagine just walking around without testosterone, your man?

That's a hormone.

I mean, like because there's a lot of people that are deficient in vitamin D and it's a steroid hormone. It gets converted into a hormone like this isn't just a vitamin. You know, it's important. It's really important. So I went off on a tangent.

But anyways, what can I ask you this point? We're often asked, what is one? What is happening to people when they are vitamin D? Like what's happening in vitamin D deficient? What is happening in the body that's causing their immune system, this this hormone deficiency, not having this vitamin D, whether it's through sun exposure. So there's lots of things.

I mean, it plays a there's vitamin D receptors, unlike your immune cells.

And the reason for that is because when the hormone vitamin D hormone binds to receptor, it activates all these genes and that the genes do stuff that are, you know, regulate immune function. You know, there's there studies that have shown people and I love these studies because because they basically take away people's complaints about, you know, there's lots of epidemiological studies showing that low vitamin D is associated with disease X, Y or Z, and everyone's like, well, you know, they're out and they're not in the sun as much.

So they're not as healthy, they're not as physically active and not whatever, even though those confounding factors are usually corrected for it's old. At the end of the day, it's an association. Right. And everyone's like correlations, not causation, which is true. But sometimes you've got to like, look at the full body of data. You know, there are genetic polymorphisms. So so there are people that have variations in genes that cause them to genetically have lower vitamin D.

And so this this is called Mendelian randomisation, where you can take a person that's that has a genetically like it's they're genetically low vitamin D, so you're not categorizing them based on their vitamin D levels. You're categorizing them based on their gene. And those people are more likely to die from respiratory infections just based on that gene alone. So, yeah, that gene that it's known to lower, it lowers it leads to lower vitamin D levels. And so, like those people are more likely to die from respiratory infections than people that don't have that, which it's a great way of kind of randomising people by their genes as opposed to doing a randomized controlled trial.

Those have been done as well. There was a study that was over twenty five randomized controlled trials. People that were given a vitamin D supplement varying doses, either weekly or daily. Monthly didn't work there.

The people with low baseline vitamin D levels. So people that were like deficient, they were 50 percent less likely to have a respiratory tract infection if they were taking the vitamin D supplement over 50 percent, actually.

And people that had already normal levels still had a protective effect. There was 10 percent less likely. So even people that were already considered normal, taking it by vitamin D supplement, helped prevent the respiratory tract.

And can you take too much vitamin D? Yes, you can. You can get too much.

So. Right. So the upper the tolerable upper intake has been set by the Nutrition Board, the Institute of Medicine, to be 4000 hours a day. But there's been studies that have shown that you can I mean, people that have taken, you know, ten thousand I use a day for for multiple years, haven't had any hypoglycemia or had, you know, problems, but too much vitamin D can be toxic. It's not good to to take that.

It's best to, like, get a vitamin D blood test. And I think that personally there has been a trend. So people that have blood levels higher than 60 may have just a little bit higher calcium level, but not much. Not like it's not like anything to be hugely concerned about. But there are studies also showing that either vitamin K one. So there's been a meta analysis looking at of twelve different studies, I think where vitamin K one or vitamin K two were given and both of those improved bone mineral density and prevented any hypoglycemia, because when you take vitamin D, you absorb calcium better like something crazy, like 40 percent more dietary calcium is being absorbed.

Wow.

So so the problem is, is that calcium can easily form a precipitate in in in general and particularly when phosphorus is around and phosphorus is. Another thing vitamin D does increase the absorption of but again, like I said, you know, it's like it's really hard to find any studies where vitamin D is causing, you know, hypoglycemia unless it's like really, really high dose for for a while.

I personally think taking the vitamin K and what's interesting about the vitamin K wine versus vitamin to without going into too much of a tangent is basically the the vitamin K one. Normally it goes to your liver and it's involved in blood coagulation, but when there's enough vitamin K one around, it stays in the periphery and it moves calcium periphery being bloodstream it calcium out of the bloodstream and takes it to places where it's supposed to go like the bones in the muscle.

Vitamin Katou usually stays around the periphery, doesn't really go to the liver. So it usually that's usually what it's just doing is, you know, moving calcium out and bringing it to the bones. And so I take a I actually have one of my multi that I take, but I also take a K to supplement MGK for I take it like a couple of times a week. And what dose for one.

Well, the ones in my multi so I don't buy vitamin K one is really it's found in dark leafy greens. So I get a lot of those as well. A lot.

So I'm getting a lot of Kawan vitamin K too is not as it's not as readily found in like the Western. I mean it's like the food that's highest and is that fermented soybean natto.

But it's like small quantities and like do you ever get concerned from the high volume of leafy greens you have conservative oxygenates or getting kidney stones or anything along those lines?

No, I like the few studies that I've seen and some people that I like doing insane juicing and they're already, like, messed up, you know, so I'm not concerned at all, like even like the oxalate. So actually, it's actually I don't want to go into this, but yeah, no, I don't get cancer. I want the vitamin D thing is so important.

Like the the the reason there's a big reason I think that vitamin D is so important.

It's for the lung function in the respiratory function.

But what's really interesting is that, you know, the the very receptor that this sars-cov-2 virus binds to to gain entry into the cell, it's called E to that very receptor plays a really important role in preventing lung damage and and basically and preventing acute lung injury, preventing acute respiratory distress syndrome ARDS.

And what's been shown with sars-cov-2 one is that Kusaka one also binds to that receptor EU, it's called, and that's how it gets into the cell, just like the sars-cov-2 when it binds the receptor, it like it attaches in, like through this like weird and situs psychosis mechanism. It takes the receptor in and decreases the receptor. What's called down, regulates down, regulates receptors.

You end up having less A2, which causes like can cause severe lung injury. Not having the EU. It plays a big role in protecting that's been shown in multiple studies like. So the sars-cov-2 one virus does that.

It's thought the sars-cov-2 also does it because it goes through the same enters through the same receptor.

And it's been shown that like if you for example, if you give mice lipo polysaccharide or something that's going to cause lung injury and then you give them vitamin D for the lung injury itself also causes the E receptor to decrease.

And so it's like this vicious cycle of like making the damage worse. But if you give mice vitamin D before that happens, the two receptor increases and it protects them from the lung injury. But you give vitamin D to control mice that don't have the lung injury. It doesn't do anything to the two receptor levels. So it's not like full stop. It's not like, you know, drugs. The way drugs are designed is they like they target a certain molecule and they boom.

They like do their thing.

They either increase or decrease it a lot of times with like hormones, you know, vitamins, things like that. They're they maintain homeostasis, you know what I mean?

So when when shit goes wrong, they fix it. They're not just like, boom, full stop going to, like, increase something when everything's normal. So and that's important because there have been some concern about taking vitamin D, increasing the EU receptor. And there's another study that was with hypertensive rats where the hypertension caused a two to go down. And that makes it makes all sorts of problems. It also causes like kidney problems and all sorts of things.

Right.

But but the vitamin D increase the EU, but only in the hypertensive rats, not in the normal control rats again. So, you know, and then there was another study that was like some other messed up diabetic animal model where the vitamin D actually didn't increase the ace to receptor, but it increased what's called soluble ace to which is in like it's in the periphery.

And that actually potentially could bind sars-cov-2 virus and prevent it from it's like sequestering it, preventing it from entering the cell. That's actually being explored as a potential therapeutic.

So the bottom line here is that. Sometimes you'll hear this EU receptor and that's how the virus gets in, it's like, I don't want that, I want less of that because that's how the virus gets in. But like like biology is always way more complicated than just a simple taking it out of a big picture. Right. You know, so like the EU receptor, the EU is part of the renin angiotensin system. It plays a huge role in inflammation.

It's also like when you when you decrease e to all these signal signalling cascades happen in it, it's like it's important for producing pro inflammatory cytokines at the end of the day without getting into all the stuff, you know, specifics. So it causes massive inflammation to have a decrease in it. It basically causes acute lung injury. It exacerbates it. I mean, it's crazy.

So I really I just I really you imagine if vitamin D really did help, like if if there was something that could be given along with the other stuff from DV or whatever, whatever, it's going to be the stuff that we identify, but like vitamin D so, so cheap, it's so easy and so many people are deficient and insufficient, you know, like so yes.

As you mentioned, there is you know, you don't want to take too much vitamin D, you don't want to like, you know, overdose on it. But I think in the short term, you know, particularly like in the short term and particularly in patient people that have already been infected, you know, it may be wise to to to try giving your patient, like if you're a physician, you know, dealing with this may be wise to try and see their vitamin D levels and perhaps give them some, you know, is this being explored?

I mean, is this something that people are talking about publicly? Because all I'm hearing is drugs and possible drug remedies, potential vaccine that they're working on the future. I'm not hearing anything about methods, nutrition that boosts your immune system. And this is one of the reasons why I really wanted to talk to you right now.

Yeah, let's definitely talk more. There are. Yes, it is. So there are clinical studies, unfortunately, not a ton of them in the United States that are looking randomized controlled trials, looking at vitamin D, the effects of vitamin D on already, you know, patients with covid-19, which what would be great is like giving them to like first responders or health care workers and seeing like, how does it how does it what what role does it play in prevention?

Because that's really the easiest thing. Right. I'm involved a friend of mine, Dr. Eric Gordon, he he's put together. So I kind of with his help, I've helped him design an open arm trial, very small for his patients where where where he is going to be giving them fifty thousand.

I use every five days a vitamin D, so it's like a weekly dose because a lot of times these people are severely deficient. And so you want to give them a higher dose, you know, and and for, you know, doing doing fifty thousand I use weekly isn't, you know, something that's necessarily going to be toxic or anything like that. And then we're going to you know, we're doing some other things, vitamin C, three grams, three times a day, and then vitamin B one can talk about that thiamin as well.

But so yeah, there are I think there's like open label trial, open label trials are just kind of a start. It's like if you if you see something plus we're doing like kitchen sink. Right. We got this, this and this and this. So I think vitamin D really is the is the star. You know, I think that potentially, you know, I think it really should be explored. I think it has huge potential. It has to be shown like this isn't something that people can just, you know, take it home and think I'm protected.

Like, that is not the case. We don't know that. You know, there's no data showing that. But I think it has huge potential, you know.

So how would one do a randomized control study on vitamin D in people that have covid-19?

It seems like, well, they're going to do it in addition to they're going to in addition to standard of care. So it's basically whatever the standard of care is. And that's that's what, you know, is happening at the hospital and in New Jersey.

But as you said, it seems like what's really critical is getting it to people before they get it.

Yeah, I would love to see that study done. Yeah. If anyone can do that study, amazing. That would be because that would be like. To get it to nurses, get in first responders, yeah, workers just just get the information out there and have nurse or nurses and first responders take it. I mean, you know, vitamin D is something, again, like 70 percent of the US population has insufficient levels.

You know, that is such a crazy number. It is.

And it's generally safe to take like like four thousand. I use a day. It is taking five. I am. But for thousands the the the what the they indicated as the tolerable upper intake.

So why do you take five. I'm just taking 5000 right now because that's like I could buy the five. It was like I want to take two pills of the two thousand. Right.

Well that's me too. I got one pill. It's five. That's right. And I'm like, well so I had my my level's measured literally. Like I went to lot to Quest Quest Labs like a month before all this lockdown happened. So I got my data back pretty, pretty recent and I still hover around 50 nanograms per ml, even though before I was taking 4000 it didn't. Generally speaking, one thousand I use will raise your blood levels by about five nanograms per minute.

And there are people with different variations in genes that are related to vitamin D metabolism where they have lower levels and they need a higher dose. The only way you're going to know that is by, of course, measuring your vitamin D levels multiple times and then potentially even doing like a genetic analysis, you know, as well. But you have to measure your levels. Like, that's the only way to know. Of course, right now, it's like you can't go to Alaska.

It's like hard to do any of that.

I mean, the things that are like, ironic. Yeah.

Yeah. But right now, when you put the vitamin D, I mean, I'm just so like. I just I have so much I have high hopes for it, you know, and maybe maybe I'm a bit of an enthusiast with it, you know, I do like I've studied vitamin D so much. I've got two publications on it. I certainly like, you know, you said so, you know, take that with a grain of salt as well.

But I just think the data strong. I really think the data is I think it's mountain data and I think that eventually something will come out and it's going to be just like the randomized controlled trials showing that it protects against respiratory tract infections. Everyone wants randomized control trials like no one wants to believe anything until it's a randomized controlled trial.

Yeah, I'm just I'm amazed that the numbers of people that are deficient, it's so stunning. And when you point out the number of people that are deficient that actually wind up having severe covid-19 problems. Right. Yeah, I know it's stunning.

Like some of those numbers. It's like the missing link. It's like it's right there.

I think that's a really good hypothesis. I do. I think it's a really good hypothesis. I want to believe it because it's easy, it's safe.

And I think people need vitamin D anyways. I mean, you know, so so, of course I want to believe it, you know, but like, there was this interesting study where African-Americans who are very deficient in vitamin D, they were given a vitamin D supplement for like a month and it decreased their epigenetic age by like two years. I mean, yeah. So that's a marker a month. Something like a month, I think. Yeah.

In a month they decrease their epigenetic age by two years. OK, don't hold me to the month, give me some month or two months. But I think it was a month. Most, most of these said three months. That's crazy.

Most of these studies are about a month. Yeah. So yeah. By one point eight years.

So what's indicative of their suffering from this vitamin D deficiency. This alleviates suffering and then puts the body in homeostasis.

Hormone. Yeah, hormone. It's changing five percent of the human genome. That's a lot. It's a lot. A lot. Yeah.

It's a crazy number when you think about it. It is. And it's not just a vitamin, right. Yeah. Hormone super vitamin. Can you imagine.

It's like what happens when you go into menopause. Well you're not making your estrogen. I mean stuff goes wrong. I mean, it's a hormone like estrogen is a hormone. You know, testosterone is a hormone. It's a hormone.

You know, it's well, it's it's important. So, you know, so that's if you have the doctor on the Patriot pyramid of supplementation for preventative symptoms of covid-19 or preventative measures dealing with covid-19. That's your base.

That's number one. I take vitamin D. I certainly don't know if it's going to prevent covid-19, but I'm not hoping it does. Yeah, I take it hoping it it was.

But I'm not even saying preventative. I mean, like keeping your body healthy is totally over.

I mean, my mom, my mom and my dad, I got my whole family. Everyone's on the routine. You know, vitamin D is like the most important. So that's the foundation is vitamin D right now.

Yeah. I mean, I'm always trying to get them to have that. But like, it's easier to convince when people are scared.

People are more likely to make change when like you can't like if something they have to be motivated to make the change themself or just otherwise it doesn't work, you know. So I think that in this case, people are motivated, especially people in my parents generation that are older because they're they're more scared. They're more scared that they could be affected by a severe, you know, case of this. Right. So so I think that's that's certainly, you know, the issue.

Yeah. I mentioned I'm drinking my vitamin C water.

It's funny because I probably got like a thousand questions about the see in the past. Month to month and a half or whatever, and we kind of like my team and I just drove in and put together an article, released a podcast on it, a video where we just kind of covered everything. I mean, I can't believe how many studies I read on vitamin 190 references in our article, the 28 page article on our website.

But vitamin C is interesting, too. I mean, I don't I certainly. But the interesting thing about vitamin C is, you know, there's oral and then there's intravenous vitamin C and the intravenous vitamin C is what's with seems to be really relevant right now. But I think the most interesting thing that I learned really had to do with the the pharmacokinetics, which is basically like how much vitamin C raises your plasma levels and like is, you know, is there a saturation point where you can eat, you know, 20 grams of vitamin C but still only get to the certain point, you know, and then versus what you do, if you like, in your, you know, inject it into your veins.

Right. Intravenously. So what's interesting is that most people that are sick eating, let's say that people are just eating like five, somewhere between five to nine servings of vegetables or fruits a day. Those people have anywhere between like 70 to 80 microbial micro moles of vitamin C per liter. So it's micrograms per liter in their blood. If you take like a 200 milligram supplement, you only raise your levels to like 90, so it's not much over that like baseline.

Most most people that aren't eating that many that many servings probably have around 50, which is still considered normal, 50 micro moles or micro molar.

And then what's interesting is that like those levels you take, if you take 200, 200 milligrams, it's that doesn't do much. If you take a gram, it can raise you up to like one hundred and thirty or something. If you take three grams, it can raise you to 220.

And that's like the maximum level you can get from oral supplementation, 220 milligrams. That's big. That's a big difference. 220 versus like 50. So three grams, three grams.

But here's the other interesting thing is that if you don't take it multiple times throughout the day, you only take it once. You'll peak at around five hours after.

I think there's like a really nice graph on on my website on that topic, which shows it's like your peak like five, five hours after. But then you go down steadily and over 24 hours you're back to normal, your baseline. But if you take it like, you know, four times a day, you can stay at 220. But like, the whole time. And and the reason that's important is because a lot of studies looking at oral vitamin C consumption and like, for instance, the common cold incidence, the common cold really depends.

Like there's huge variations in the results and it all really seems to come down to dose like it really does.

And when you know the dose and how that's changing your blood levels, like if you're only taking 200 milligrams, which some studies are doing, it's barely doing anything over your baseline, you know. So I found that really interesting. And then the intravenous vitamin C, you can. You can. You can. I mean, so far the maximum I've seen measured is like 70 times that your blood can get 70 times 200 say I was like, wow, 18000 or 17000 or something.

So Ivy is far more effective.

Oh, it totally overcomes all those, like, saturated mechanisms. It's and it's not only more effective, it's a completely different. Game, so, yes, we're going to pause. Yeah, what what dose do you recommend for intravenous vitamin C?

Yeah, for Jamie, can you pull up filmi fitness and there's a vitamin C topic page so that we I can answer that question better because there's just there's a graph if you just like scroll to the graph, there's like all this is on your website, which tell everybody I found my fitness dotcom vitamin C or episode page of the podcast.

But scroll back up to the to the main home. Yeah, subtopics click on topics. There we go. Vitamin C somewhere thottam.

There we go. Oh, OK, there's a just look for the figure scroll, you'll see it OK, right, there goes. Is there any way you can make that year? The bottom line is on honesty, that's intravenous. OK, so there we go. So this is intravenous dose.

So you you want to get at least 10 grams.

So you can see 10 grams is like in 10 grams is 10000 milligrams. Yeah, 10 grams of 10000 milligrams. So that's that's about 10 grams. That's what I've done in the past.

But what's interesting is when you get above the pop up newsletter at my newsletter is great.

I mean, I'm sure I do lots of announcements there. Like I give commentary and stuff I'm scared to, like, publish on the websites and I want to hear all the crap anyways.

Like, what are you scared of? Well, oh, no.

I'm just like, you know, there's I'm not scared. I guess that's the wrong word. I just want to deal with it right now. That's the thing. I just don't deal with it.

The intravenous vitamin C is a completely different game because it literally generates hydrogen peroxide. Like when you get like doses above, you know, when you start to max out over that, you know, plasma level 220, microtonal, the vitamin C itself. So vitamin C kind of cycles between being oxidized and reduced is called dehydrator ascorbic acid dehydrates or bait and then ascorbic acid or ascorbic dehydrate. Ascorbic acid is the oxidized form and hydrogen peroxide is generated, which is really interesting because it's one of the mechanisms by which at least it's thought that intravenous vitamin C kills cancer cells.

It also has been shown to like kill viruses and stuff and a variety of different studies.

But that's interesting because your neutrophils, your neutrophils generate hydrogen peroxide. So the intravenous vitamin C is like generating hydrogen peroxide. At the same time, it's also acting as an antioxidant for for your own neutrophils. And that's been shown to people, you know, in clinical studies. But also it's been shown that the hydrogen peroxide does not damage the normal cells like normal northie normal healthy people. Given intravenous vitamin C, it's generating peroxide, but there's no oxidative damage happening in people's like lymphocytes and stuff.

So it's not like damaging your own cells.

And how often would you do this if you could have one study the studies? You know, it depends on on what virus you're looking at.

Like, you know, I mean, for you personally, for just for health benefits. I would take if you just had access to it every day, how often would you take intravenous vitamin C?

You know, it's something because if you if you look at the graph, it's kind of a trans intravenous vitamin C transient. So it's like it's having it's not something that like necessarily needs to be done all the time. It's something like I was I was interested in doing it like my mom was my mom had just gotten sick and like, common cold, you know, she had like a runny nose and stuff. And so I took her we went to get the IBC and they did it was ten, ten grams that we did.

And I took it because I was like, well, she's sick and I've been around her and like, I don't want to get sick. So, you know, I thought, why not try it? And, you know, so so, you know, the intravenous vitamin C, maybe maybe there's like a reason to do it. But it's not something that I'm certain that people need to do on a daily basis. It's different than like vitamin C, you know, normal vitamin C, you do need you need to get it from your diet.

It's important, like it's important for normal immune cells, normal immune function. And that's been shown.

But but I know I'm sorry to interrupt you, but do you believe it's important to take it orally as well as I.V.? Hmm.

Well, the IV is it's totally IBS, totally different. The IV is really being used as a therapeutic treatment.

Like it's it's a therapeutic treatment more, you know, the IBC where it's been shown to help with like, for example, it's at least in the hospitals in San Diego. It's routinely used for sepsis, like friends of mine, you know, use that use it for treating sepsis. And there's been large, randomized controlled trials showing that it dramatically reduces mortality with sepsis.

So, like, that's an especially in combination with thiamin as well, like huge differences in mortality, people dying from sepsis, which is obviously very relevant now, but hasn't been shown. I mean, there are clinical studies that are are ongoing right now, some in China and some of the United States looking at IBC potentially to help treat covid-19 associated pneumonia. You know, it'll be interesting to see the data from those trials, whether or not there's going to be an effect, it's not known.

But the fact that it has been shown to to treat to improve sepsis outcomes in multiple, you know, studies. It's also been shown obviously cancer is like a big one. Like that was like, you know, Linus Pauling was like deemed a nut, like, you know, the Nobel Prize winning chemist who basically is the vitamin C guy. Like he back in the 70s was like championing intravenous vitamin C for for for cancer patients because he was claiming it was like, you know, curing them, quote unquote, curing them.

It wasn't quite doing that, but it was like improving. Outcomes of cancer patients and there's all these studies from the Mayo Clinic came out and they were like, nope, doesn't do that. Turns out they were using oral vitamin C, which is like comparing apples to oranges, you know, so but now there's been so many studies, a lot, you know, the Mayo Clinic fucked that up. I don't know if they did.

That's so crazy. They did. Yeah. Yeah, there is. That's who you would depend upon when you wanted to know. Well, is this I mean, this is decades ago.

I don't know. Maybe they've like they've definitely like gotten their gotten more on game since then. Didn't understand the difference. Yeah.

Who knows back then. You know, the pharmacokinetic studies that I'm referring to. I mean those aren't those are Breece Mark Levine at the NIH. He's real.

Like he gets credit, like he is really, really involved in putting that out there. Like the difference between intravenous vitamin C and oral are apples and oranges completely different like.

And so until that was known, I guess maybe the Mayo Clinic, they just thought, oh, vitamin C is vitamin C, you just can take an orally and until like some of that data started coming out, the pharmacokinetic data where it was like, no, it's not the same thing. Like you're talking about 70 times higher vitamin C levels in the plasma. Like you could never do that from oral. Like it's not the same at all as before that was known.

I guess maybe that that's why I've even heard people dismiss vitamin C saying that your body only absorbs a certain amount. It's wasted if you take more than that.

Well, you do. So here's the thing. Like so so maximum bioavailability does occur at 200 milligrams. And once you go above that, like when you if you take 500 milligrams of vitamin C orally, you start to excrete a lot in urine. But that doesn't if you look at the plasma levels, you're still increasing them much higher. You're excreting more, too. But you're you're increasing your plasma levels more so.

So you take 200 milligrams. You get your plasma levels of vitamin C up to 90, you take five hundred. You may get it a little bit more. You take three grams, you get it to 220. Yeah. You're going to be paying a lot out, but you got to 220. Right.

And so if you look at these these common cold studies, there's like randomized meta analysis, randomized controlled trials, an analysis of them.

They've shown that like, you know, two grams is better than one gram for for like reducing the duration of the common cold, two grams better than one.

And children are more have a more robust effect than adults.

So like adults, like it reduces the common cold, like two grams can do something like twenty, reduce the duration by twenty percent or something in children's emergency.

That company got a lot of shit for their claims.

The few grams I said to Grams, the emergency doesn't have. Right. So so then 200 milligrams.

There you go. So you keep looking down. There's more meta analysis. There's another meta analysis that looked at two hundred milligrams up to like 200 milligrams, up to two grams. And that study kind of just lumped everything together rather than the other study, like, OK, what happens is two grams and one. And they did all these sub analysis and that was great because they got to the bottom of it.

Dose matters.

The other study, it was like, oh, it reduces the duration by like four percent, you know, basically nothing.

So so there's like all this there was all these conclusions. It doesn't do anything. Well, yeah. Two hundred milligrams. Look at that graph. It does it doesn't do shit to your plasma levels like you're still at baseline.

So I think that people designing clinical studies like they need that needs to be in their mind before they design their trial. OK, what am I trying to measure here? Like, I want to get I need to like I need a measurable like I need something to measure. I need that to change. Right. To get an outcome. Like if you want, you're trying to like, see what effect vitamin C has on whatever outcome you're going to want to weight raise someone's plasma levels.

Right.

So I guess it's good at the end of the day to know that 200 milligrams doesn't do anything because then you go, OK, well, 200 milligrams doesn't do anything.

But it's also good to know that, oh, wait, if I take a higher dose, there is an effect.

So, you know, making this general statement that, oh, vitamin C supplementation doesn't do anything is not it's accurate in some respects.

Yeah. 200 milligrams. It doesn't do much for the common cold, but when you take two grams, it can help. And also other studies have shown that prophylactically is slightly better than therapeutic. So like after the onset of symptoms. So if you do it like before symptoms, like there's a better, you know, outcome as well. So, I mean, that's. All kinds of interesting. So for you personally, if you had the option, would you do it once a week?

I've I'm it's pretty interesting. Yeah, I've I've like I was doing it. I was actually doing it once a week before.

Shelter in place. Enough once a week is enough. Totally.

I don't even know if it's necessary, honestly, to be honest, because again, it's a therapeutic, you know, treatment.

I will say this like my one of my friends, she's a she's an M.D. and she has reactive airways. There's interesting studies that have shown, you know, like that the intravenous vitamin C is like dramatically reducing inflammation as well. It's doing all kinds of crazy things.

But her cough and it was very transient and only happened like while the I.V. vitamin C was high in her plasma.

She's got this crazy. I mean, you'd think she'd had Kovik. She's like this just like a constant nagging cough, you know, that it completely 100 percent went away. I noticed it. And she, like my friend, is a little bit you know, she's a little bit of a skeptic when it comes to, like vitamins or anything like that, you know, so I wasn't going to say anything because her and I have gone and so on.

So many debates about it. So but she said something and I was just like, you know, I'm so glad. And so she now she's wanting to do it like she's wanted to do it, like, you know, once a month at least. So I thought that was, you know, interesting. Again, I don't know that the intravenous vitamin C is necessary. There's also interesting effects on like fat oxidation effects, fat oxidation, because it's important for carnitine, which isn't necessary for oxidizing fat, like there's been clinical studies where people are like burning more fat when they're exercising, if they have vitamin C and if they have low vitamin C levels or not like burning as much fat.

I think it's because it's the carnitine. I thought that was really interesting. I didn't know anything about that.

So we've been doing intravenous vitamin C and Glutathione and a bunch of other stuff. Zinc once a week.

That's OK. Yeah, Zink's another one that's really, you know, important for immune function as well. And elderly people are more zinc deficiencies not really common in the U.S. Most zinc is found in in really high in oysters, but not a lot of people. Oysters, that red meat, poultry. You know, if you if you eat enough of that, you should be getting enough.

What about vegetarians? Vegetarians?

Do they they are more prone to zinc deficiency. And in fact, because the zinc is bound to fight weight, it's less bioavailable. And they need to like, eat like up to three times more. The RDA needs to be like almost three times as high for them. Or they can just supplement, which I know a lot of vegetarians do. But yeah, but zinc seems really important for immune function, like there's been studies where they have like depleted healthy people of their zinc just transiently and like t cell function like is all messed up.

So it totally messes the immune system up. Randomized controlled trials showing that zinc, zinc acetate or zinc gluconate like lozenges, they can dramatically lower the duration of common cold.

So is acetate or gluconate, which one is superior?

So there was it's like it was trending that acetate was better trending, meaning was non significant, although it was like forty percent versus twenty eight percent. I don't like to me lowering lowering the duration of the common cold by forty percent versus lowering it by twenty eight percent. I guess it was non significant for whatever reason. So it's the study concluded that they're both the same, but it seems as though astate maybe slightly better, maybe slightly better. But you know that I am taking zinc is also a positive ion.

So you need a zinc ionophores to help it get in to cells. So like flavonoids, like quercetin, quercetin found in like apples, onions, buckwheat teas, which is what I drink. But you can supplement that which also supplement. Yeah, I supplement with it as well.

It's questions interesting because it's Zingana for it's also been identified to have activity against Sajko one antiviral activity against Sajko, one doesn't nootropic properties as well.

I don't know whether it has, I don't know, it might be confusing it with something. It's got synergetic properties which means it can it's been shown, it's been identified as a possible compound that can clear out senescent cells, which are those cells that are you know, they accumulate with age and they're basically like they're not dead, but they're just like not really functioning. And they're secreting they're secreting cytokines and things that age nearby cells.

I always like to think of, like I was mentioning to Jamie that maybe 42 next month.

And so, yeah, I have some grey hairs, it grey hairs. And it's funny how, like, you'll get one grey hair and the other grey hairs that cluster around that one, like the clustering. And I always think of like because they're cellular senescence happens in the melanocytes, the you know, are responsible for pigment. So I always think about, oh, the senescent melanocytes site is like creating all this pro inflammatory stuff that's now. Accelerating the age, my other nearby hair follicle melanocytes, causing them to anyway's quercetin has been identified to clear away senescent cells.

So that's kind of cool for aging grey hairs and all just for aging.

Now, that's just my like an analogy for people to understand why senescent cells are bad because they like age. So other nearby cells by secreting all this stuff. Pro inflammatory thing.

I forgot to ask you about vitamin D deficiency is red light therapy. What would that have to do with vitamin D? I don't know. Do you know about these red light machines that people stand in front of?

Yeah, the photo bottom photo bio modulation. Yeah. Does that have any effect on vitamin D?

That's not UVB. No kids different. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think that that itself it's an interesting field. I would say that it's the marketings got a little ahead of the science for that.

But I do think that there's there's promise, particularly for some treatments. You know, there there are some claims out there that are sort of being backed up by very poorly done studies. But I think I think there's some promise out there for it just makes you feel good, does it?

Yeah, it's interesting. I've been doing it. I, I wanted to do it before I even talked about it for months. Solid do it basically four or five days a week. And I just I don't know. It's hard to tell because I do so much shit.

Do you Saana. Yes. That makes you feel good every day. Every day.

I'm doing it five days a week and I'm doing seven days a week, 180 degrees for 25 minutes.

Do I do a hundred and eighty degrees for twenty five minute, dude? Yeah.

Unless it's if it's a hundred and ninety or a hundred and eighty eight then I'll do twenty but yeah I do twenty five at one hundred and eighty as well.

So it seems to me the sweet spot you know, and I've been doing it every single day of the quarantine because I have a song in my house. Do you have a song in your house. Oh we did.

Well, it's in our office which is like just come off. It's like it's like, well, it's not in our house, but it's. Yeah, it's just next door much.

So we got that literally. You're not going to leave.

It's like like three hours before shelter in place was put in California. I mean, I couldn't I couldn't believe it.

Well, we, we had ours done just a few months before. I mean, it was just I was thinking, God, if we didn't have this in the house and you couldn't go anywhere, luckily we have one here so I could use the one that's here. But it's a godsend.

It changes everything. It's a game changer. It's a game changer.

And I've been doing so I haven't had a warm shower since since the shelter in place, since I got my showers.

I do. It's amazing like I do. I don't want to make people feel bad. Look, I went a long time without Asthana. I know what it's like. I was doing Hot Bath and we could talk about that. Yeah, it is.

But there is something about the sauna and then the cold baths. The cold shower, sorry, the cold shower.

That is just it is a game like I'm so much more relaxed and this is like I think I've told you the story.

The whole reason I got interested in the sauna was because I was in graduate school doing it like every day. And I was like, this is amazing. I am so much less stressed. I am like calmer, I'm more relaxed. I'm happier.

Yeah, something's happening. So I was like into the that not even all the muscle and all the cardiovascular. I mean, it mimics cardiovascular exercise.

It really has a big difference in my cardiovascular activity. It's been shown to people. There's a study this was, I think, Gary, Lorcan, and who's a friend of mine, just he's like the best. The leader and senior research in Finland. He published a study where they looked at cardiorespiratory fitness and cardio, I think cardio other cardiovascular disease risk markers in people that were physically fit or physically physically active and plus the sauna or, you know, just physically active.

So, so physical just on alone. So physical activity was like the king. So, like, if you compare physical activity alone to sauna alone, physical activities, the bastet, improving cardiovascular health, sauna is also good. Sauna and physical activity together were better than the physical activity alone, which I was like, yeah, that's what you want.

I don't remember.

I don't like your door asking me like six months ago or more, you know, but. But that's what you want, right?

Like you want. Like you're like I'm already physically active. I mean, you're like more physically active than me. And so but that's what you want is like the combination.

It makes a big difference. Once I started doing it during the lockdown, one of the things I know is the runs that I do, the last hill is fucking brutal and I always finish on this last hill. But now I've been able to run that last hill. The last hill. It's like a market difference. When I hit the hill, I'm like, wow, this is crazy. Either I'm getting better shape and I know I am for sure.

But it's also I got to think the SONA has a big impact because it feels like I'm on a drug. It feels like I'm on I don't know what it feels like, but I would imagine it would feel something like this was the increased cardiovascular benefit. It's very noticeable. Totally.

Totally. I mean, there's been some small studies looking at you're talking about performance enhancements. There's been some small studies showing that, particularly with endurance, that there is a performance enhancement. I think it was cycler. Maybe it was running, running and cycling.

Have you ever measured your heart rate during it? So, yes. So here's the thing with that. Like, at first I was. Terrified to do that because I don't want to ruin my Apple Watch, you know, I've grown tired and like Kevin, Kevin Rose was like, no, just put your hand on. I do it all the time. And like, I like he's a tech guy. So I'm like, all right. Kevin Rose tells me I can take my Apple Watch and the hot frickin and do it right.

So, you know, my heart rate it it can get up to like 120. But the thing is, is that there is adaptation that happens. So you're basically like you're you're becoming adapted. And so your heart rate doesn't increase as much like over time. Right. And I'll be I'll be honest, I stopped wearing my watch and they're so not measuring my heart rate anymore.

Like to get a wub strap because the strap was no problem at all. Yeah. Oh yeah. I'll get you one. I'll have one sent to you. All right. Because they're one of the sponsors of the podcast. But I love it.

I would love to have something to measure it without having to take my watch in there, because I don't like sitting like it's like, you know, well, the strap measures are really well and it'll give you like you could actually mark it down as an activity.

And I'll show you where your heart rate it's you had a mountain of data. It's really good. That's cool.

Yeah. Let me I'd also great for sleep.

It shows you like really accurate sleep. It actually has a sleep coach built in. So it shows you like how much sleep you got, how much recovery you recoveries out and what you need even tell you, you know, hey, you should go to bed since you'd be getting up at six o'clock in the morning, you should go to bed by 10:00 tonight.

I had you noticed in effect.

So I've been doing this on every day, five days a week because I would do it every day. But I got to have, you know, more time with my son. But have you noticed an effect on your sleep at all?

Yeah, I feel relaxed.

Do you do you just need more sleep, though? Like, you know, like when you're working out hard, like you sometimes require, like, more more sleep.

Yeah. Yeah. Well when I do squats for sure, any time I do lunges and squats and heavy leg days, I'm a zombie for two days and like if I have a particularly intellectually challenging podcast I'll skip leg days because I know I'm just going to be too stupid. I've done it before coming. I'm like, I can't form squares. It's not if you see what I'm doing. There was this weird. There was a study that linked.

There was a link between like leg strength and cognitive function. It's very strong.

Like the more leg strength you had, like the improve, it was like some kind of crazy no to me.

Yeah.

It just makes sense that if you have more leg strength, that means you're doing more activity. That means you get more blood flow. That means everything is probably fine because it's such an enormous part of your body. When you look at your musculature, the large percentage of it is from the waist down. And what I do when I'm doing leg work, like if I'm doing most of what I'm doing is kettlebell, but I'm doing lunges and presses and squats and all these different things with heavy kettlebell.

So it's like it's a lot of weight that your muscles are pushing down is always trying to get me to do squats like I don't know what. Back when I was in grad school, I was doing squats and I was using the stuff and then I was doing, I guess, what are they called? Leg presses.

Yeah. And I like, injured myself. And in this I want to call it sciatica. What's the other one? That's like sciatica.

There's an sciatica is is a nerve that comes from your spine right here. Yes. Well, you know what the problem though.

I don't know what I don't know what it is and I'm calling my sciatica most of the time.

What you're getting is your lower back. You're having your discs or protruding and your disc. Like if you have a herniation of the disc or if you have a bulging disc, it's pushing against your nerve. And that's sending that pain down usually your butt and into your back, your leg and along those lines. Right.

Is that where you were getting was only it doesn't go into my leg. It's just like this. Like right above my above.

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it. That's a lot of times you think it's that area, but it's not. It's your back and it's your back with a disc pushing into the nerves. Have you had an MRI? No. You should have an MRI.

OK, because I'm sure to do squat like squats are like like every time I do that, yeah. I get a flare up and it's like I'm sure I'm out.

Well, there's other things you can do to strengthen that area. Like what I like. First of all, there's a machine called reverse hyper. It's fantastic. Reverse hyper. Yeah. I have one out outside. I'll show it to you. But it was created by this guy, Louis Simmons from West Side Barbel. He's he's a genius. He's given us gave us this new platform too. That's amazing too.

What does that thing called Jimmy belt squat belt squat. I love this thing because you wear a belt and the weight is actually pull. The weight is behind you. I'll show how it works before. But you're on this platform and all the weight is on this belt instead of on your shoulders. So you can have like two hundred and fifty pounds or whatever it is, but it's all being carried. So that's that's the thing right there, the machine.

But that's yeah.

That's similar to what we have. But the machine that we have is a little bit more complicated, but the point is this guy comes are there any pictures of females doing only guerrilla's big giant dudes?

But the the reverse hyper. The reason why it's so special is forget about this for a second. Well, there's a girl there's a girl using that.

That is a more primitive version of the one that we have out there. The new one, the West Side, Barbel CentOS. It's just a cable that comes to the floor in. The weights are actually behind you and it carries you carrying all the weight on your hips, which strengthens the legs without putting a load on the back, which is fantastic.

Wow. I like that for that. So you can get all the leg work that you get from squats, but you don't get the pressure on the desks. And then the reverse hyper is a machine that he actually invented. Louis Simmons invented it because he had a herniated disc and the doctors are telling him, hey, we have to operate on you because you have this compressed disc. And so he's a very smart guy and he knows so much about physical fitness and weight training.

That's Louis right there. He came up with this machine. So he said, well, listen, if if something compressed it, something can decompress it. So he came up with this machine and what this machine, the reverse hyper does on the lift, it's strengthening the lower back muscles. But then as you drop it down, it swings low and it actively decompresses all of your discs. Wow.

It would be so scared. That's going to, like, aggravate it. You know, I'm going to trust me. First of all, you can do it with no weight. The first thing you could do it at first with no weight. And that's how a lot of people start. When I introduce people to it, I have them do no weight. But for me, it's been a giant game changer. So I do that. And then there's another thing by teeter.

Teeter makes this decompression decks. It's called the DEA. And from that you hang from the waist. You like strap your.

I have that outside as well. You strap your ankles into it and you hang from the waist and it just all that's it right there. So with that that lady right there in that image, she's holding onto those handles. And that's how you kind of get yourself down. But once you get yourself down, you just relax and all of your weight, see how other guys doing it. They're all your weight is decompressing the spine. So it stretches the spine out and decompresses it and it gives you a lot of relief.

So between those two particular pieces of equipment, the reverse hyper, and there's decs to which which I fucking love that thing.

Yeah. Desex too.

And that's when I get my home gym. I forget all of this stuff. Yeah.

That's made by teeter. Teeter has two things that are really cool. It has those inversion tables which are great for, you know, the same thing. You're hanging by your ankles and decompressing your spine. But I actually prefer this product from them because this completely isolates leads the back and you're not pulling on your knees and your ankles when you're decompressing. It's all just decompressing the back. And also you can do leg extensions and a bunch of other people doing dips and other exercises from the the teeter.

But it's a great machine and it's just really specifically good for back health, lower back health, decompressing it and even strengthening it, because you can do those back extensions. So you hook yourself into it and you just lift your back everything that I'm scared to do. But it shouldn't be you shouldn't be scared to do it because that's what's going to protect that area. What's going to protect that area is muscle and strength and also flexibility work.

That would be just incredible. I guarantee you it's going to work because I'm so like the whole time I had a gym membership, it's like unpause.

But the whole reason I had one cassana like I like scared to do like I do free weights, I free weights and I'll do that, but like I'm just scared of machines.

I'll get you a trainer. That's what I need. That's what you need. Because so many people fucked themselves up by trying to do things on their own and I did and now I'm scared.

It's like this like and now I'm, I'm guarantee you it's just pure form and all kinds of things need to do more.

I'm a big like I go for my my thing is like my gym is like endurance.

I love going for runs like, you know, and I it's like huge.

Like it's so great for the mind. Right. That's the reason I do it. Like absolutely. With this shelter in place because I like to do outdoor runs and I don't have a treadmill or anything like that.

I mean it was like I finally got a jump rope and it came in right when the beaches opened up. But because I can I'm good at jumping rope and it should have been doing that. But I was training every day and doing, you know, I was doing so like I do some, like, ballet stuff, you know, but like I need to do resistance training, like muscle mass is important.

Like for for aging for sure.

And bone density. It's also density. Right. Lifting weights increases bone density, tendon strength, so many different variables that are so huge because as your body gets older, those are the things that go south.

Yes. And I you know, look, I'm going to be 42 next month, so like fifty two.

So now you make you feel better. Yeah. You I mean you definitely like your fit, you know. So I need to, I just can't, I can't ever let it go. That's no.

And I definitely like my diet. I you know that's dialed in and I'm definitely like do the right. And the sauna, but but I need to be better about resistance training for sure. I used to do yoga a lot, but, you know, I became a mom and it's like I mean, like I used to work out, like, you know, twice a day, twice a day.

I would do I would do my yoga or my ballet and then I would run.

Now it's like, you know, did you realize how much work being a mom was for you? Did it?

Oh, no, I had no idea. I mean, it's so ignorant to have no idea. It is.

I mean, it's. Tons of work, I mean, insane, sometimes I like it's like three o'clock in the afternoon, I'm like I never brushed my teeth, you know, like I haven't showered in a couple of, you know, the sauna thing, like I have to shower now.

But like before before I was doing the sauna every single day. Yeah. Showers.

I mean, it's like naptime is like what can I get work done or it could take a shower.

What should I do. I got a lot of work to do. It's hard. I know it's hard though.

Thankfully I have help from my mom. My mom is like, you know, she's Nana.

So she she helps out a lot. So I can I could actually get work done. It's it's hard, you know, being being a mom that's you know, I have you know, I run a business and but I also like want to be a really good mother.

So it's like, yeah, it's hard to balance is very difficult.

It does help if you have some equipment in your house. You know, that certainly helps. Yes.

And that's like we've been like leaning towards that. And it's it's you know, we're slowly getting to the to the point where we're going to have more and more where it's just like you have to have easy access.

It has to be something you can just, you know, do it when you need to find a trainer, just find someone that can I mean, you can learn a lot online, but you have access to resources. You really need to find someone who's willing to go.

And you live in you live in San Diego. It's an awesome place for fitness. I mean, there's so many people down in San Diego that you could find, right? Yeah. Find someone to find some gal who's fucking jacked and knows how to lift weights, you know, and then I'll inform them all about the sauna and tell them I'll be fine if it's on us.

Yes. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I'm sure they can get a lot of I mean, I'm sure there's someone listening to this right now. It's probably the message you and say I'll do it.

Right. I'm your huckleberry.

Hey, I wanted to tell you this about the the I've been nice. It's been like just having having the effect.

I think the first time I came on your podcast, like, I know many years, it's been it's been a while, but I talked about this on years.

Yeah. It was like what you were in twenty twenty now. Yeah.

It's more than that the first time you come along so. Twenty fourteen. Wow. Yeah. Because that was still a postdoc so yeah. 2015 I stop, I cut that out like I finished my postdoc so I published a couple of studies. So I think it's 2014. But like the sauna, you know, it's just been like something. I came on your podcast the first time and we talked about it and then of course, continue to to, you know, publish videos and articles and stuff.

And I'm writing a I review article for peer review publication right now.

But there's a woman who reached out to me.

She's a she was she had done her I think her PhD, either her, I don't know, say psychology, but she had done it with a guy I interviewed on the podcast, Dr. Charles Rosen, who is he's the guy who showed that like a single hypothermic treatment, which was with a device that raised the core body temperature like almost three degrees, could have an antidepressant effect.

Well, she reached out to me and like the FDA shut that whole machine down, like, no, you can't use that for research anymore, which kind of shut down the whole thing in a depression, you know, research area.

So she basically she has gotten some funding and she's she's doing a pilot study with a new device, which is something you can, like, buy off Amazon, where it's like a sauna, like your head's out, but like it's like a tent.

It's on a tent. Yeah. My wife had one of those before we had a sauna. Yeah.

So it's a little it's different, but it's something that, you know, she's got to prove that it's safe before, like the FDA will allow her to even like continue on to like like to study how it affects depression.

And so I've been able to, you know, help, help with connections. I've had helped fund new study she's going to be doing where she's going to get depressed patients to basically be exposed to this sauna. And it's like an intense like she's like this intense protocol where, like, she's like an hour long and they get really hot and people are giving them wet towels because like it's like it's like imagine being it's like 140 degrees Fahrenheit. So it's an infrared.

But they're in there for like an hour, you know, and they're getting they raised their core body temperature. They're measuring that rectally. So but she's going to measure the effects on on, you know, on depressed patients. So it's really exciting because and they're going to do like a dose response where they're going to see how many the Charles Raisen, Dr. Charles Rosen showed one just one single session could result in an antidepressant effect.

Six weeks later, she's going to do try to do eight sessions like like where she's going to keep these people from.

Course. Of how much time?

I think it's going to be once a week. Once a week for eight weeks. Yeah.

And when you say what is the methodology like, what are they using?

So. OK, well, they're using they're using that sonna that I was telling you the same thing. So they're using that. Yeah, that's the sign. So she right now, her name is Doctor.

What did they do before where they were saying they cut it, they wouldn't let them? CHAVOUS It was a device. It was like this device that like basically is sort of like a far infrared thing.

But it would it would raise your body temperature through, you know, infrared. Right. So what is the difference? What difference? When people ask me about infrared.

Infrared. Yeah. So infrared sauna, the main difference between infrared scanners and like the regular dry sonas that you and I use is that the regular dry sonas are heating the ambient air. Right. And that's then raising our core body temperature through that mechanism.

The infrared scanners are like they're like changing electrons. They're like they're like directly heating. They're like directly heating your body basically without having to heat outside air much.

There have been some studies that have compared I mean, there's benefits with these infrared scanners there in Japan. It's called Wei on therapy. It's far infrared and they use it. It's been used to like help even treat different cardiovascular diseases like it's been shown to improve like current chronic heart failure or something like that.

I think. So there's there's benefits with these with the infrared personally.

There's I think there's a lot there's a lot stronger there's much more research on not only Driss on us, but in Finland, they take they take the sauna dry sauna has like these hot rocks and they pour water on top of the hot rock.

And so it creates humidity. Right. Steam. And so so that's really a common sauna.

Like I went to Finland a few years ago. I visited Finland. Some of their son is there in Finland. And so that's a very common thing. I think they call it like first they first of all, they call it sauna, sauna and they call it weird.

We're talking Lual Lual or something. Will they make the steam? Do you pour water on your rocks? So our sauna is like it's pretty small.

It's a two person sauna and. Yes, so I can get the humidity, like if I get it up to 50 percent, I feel like I'm like like I'm burning.

Cooking. Yeah.

So yeah, if I'm in a rush and I'm like, oh my God, I'm here, I got to you know, I got things to do.

I got to write so up like pour the for the water on the hot rocks to like just get it really feeling really hot.

But my personal favorite is like a nice twenty five minute hundred and eighty.

No, no water just dry like I, I like that but I'm so accustomed to 180 that I used one in Vegas and when I was there so it was one sixty, I was like this is ridiculous. I be here forever. And so I just started pouring water on, on the thing. I got ten bottles of water and I just pouring bottles of water because it was just me in there. Right. And I got that fucker right. Oh yeah.

It was, it was like, OK, now, now we're cooking and I was sweating up a storm.

It works. I mean, like I said, ours is really small. And so like I mean, you're breathing like it's like burning you.

There's a direct formula to between the percentage of humidity and then the increased temperature, the way it feels like if it's at one eighty, but you have ten percent humidity, it's like feels like there is I don't know what that formula is.

Absolutely. There's a formula and in a lot of the studies and coming out of Finland, many of the people there are using are doing the the humid stuff on us as well. So I mean, I guess they're called Finnish Sana's, which means like they're using the hot water and steam.

It would be amazing to have a sauna outside sauna that's right next to a frozen lake. Like the way they do it. Oh, yeah. They cut a hole in the leg and then get the party.

So what we did, I went I visited the Sauna Society, and it was in November, it was cold and it's right on a lake. And so they have like the day I won, it was not Coed Day. So, you know, it's only women sauna that I went in.

There's like like sectioned off.

But so you go and you do these different they have all these different types and I don't remember.

And they're like whipping each other with like Birchwood, you know, which is ranch's.

Yeah. The Russians like to do that. They they call it the Banyo. Right. The Russian bomber. Yeah. They beat each other with this these branches that are wet.

So let me tell you my story anyways. They jump in the lake and they go back and they're doing this. Right. So here's my.

Did I ever tell you my crazy story, fun story about this crazy story? So I have the friend is the friend. He's you know, some of your friends are a little eccentric, right?

Well, this guy, he's got he's got a, you know, huge property in like the country in the woods, like in Finland. And it's like the first time I ever went camping and it was like snow camping. It was crazy. It was like the worst thing ever.

Like he had. Yeah, he had us do this like there was like two tents and and it was a conference that I gave a talk at. And so there some people paid extra to like go to this event that. That was after it, so there was like 30 or so people there and there were from all around the world, there's only like three Americans, Meedan and some other guy I know, four Americans, I think. But anyways, it was my first time camping, like outside, like not in like like I've been to Yosemite, but I like staying in a cabin.

I don't like sleep in a tent.

But so it wasn't a great experience because one, there was this guy who snored all night too, because it was snow camping.

We had to like there was some weird fire thing. And he was that this guy was in the military. And so he had us do this thing where, like, everyone had to wake up. But I forgot what it was. Every hour, some get a pass this year and a big wall tent.

We were in a big I don't know what it was called, but I didn't sleep the whole night and it was awful. Oh, but here's my sauna experience.

So he doesn't believe in you can't wear like swimsuits or anything in this on him. So you have to be like you have to wear no clothes. Or if you if you really want to, you could wear a towel like if you were modest or whatever, because to them it's like, oh no big deal. The sauna, you just you don't wear any clothes.

By that I think so they were. I know. They told me. They told me, oh no, this is a sexual place and I'm like, really, really. You're in there. I know. So so it's only three people were towel me down and this other American.

And so everyone was in there naked.

Lots of like there weren't that many females, but there were some from, I don't know, the U.K. or in some German, I don't know. But they were all naked, like it was like I guess Europeans are like that, you know, like they're more used to it or that's what someone was telling me. I don't know what what the cases.

But anyways, I had people coming up to me going, I love your podcasts.

And I'm like, I'm not going to get naked before, like a conference. And they were there.

And you think I'm going to be naked, like in the sauna with someone is like a body fan. Yes. Oh, we're kind of in your face. So anyways, I'm in the song and everyone's naked, and then he and the guy who is my friend, OK, he's still my friend. He's he's an interesting guy, but he had like people come started doing yoga and they're naked to Jesus.

They're doing naked. They're doing doing naked. Wonderful. Yet.

So that was like my my first Finnish sauna experience where it was like people are too open minded.

They really are when it comes to things like that. I was just happy he was like you, Cortile, if you want, because he has I wouldn't do it.

I get out of here. You're not staring at my junk. Yeah. So then I went they were all jumping in the lake after and I'm like, I'm going to just sit on this patio. It's freezing out here in Finland in November. I'm not going to take my towel off and jump in the lake.

Like, why can't you wear a swimsuit? Why says who? Like, what is the difference? There's zero difference in the benefits of it. He it's some claim it's a cultural thing.

And also he claimed that there's like toxins being released from, oh, one of those assholes.

Fuck off, buddy. I got a swimsuit on and then, OK, the yoga was bad.

It got worse. Then he got some whipping technique with the Birchwood and he wanted like to demonstrate it.

So we had like one of the Britain girls like and she was like, I mean it was just like, here's the here's the truth. Like I was hot as fuck, right? So like I didn't care anymore. Like I cared about my tolba, I didn't care what was going on. I was trying not to look at everyone, you know, like I didn't want to see, like, you know, married, like, I don't want stuff.

Well, people get sexual, too, because it's hot and sweaty. And and if this guy is like it sounds like he's a little bit of a cult leader. Yeah, right. Like someone needs to be naked somewhere.

OK, that's not what strikes me that because he passed out like this flyer because it's like we were doing all these events, you know, all these events were happening and this flyer passed out and was like, we're reading it.

And I was like, says, you have to you can't wear any clothes or some suit or anything. Because I had packed my swims. I was like, yeah, I you know, you can't tell people they can't wear clothes.

You do this his own home, Sana, you know. Yeah. How convenient. But you could wear a towel. So great. Thanks buddy. Yeah.

All the toxins talk to soon. Someone's talking about cleansing toxins like fuck off.

I was like so put off with the toxins stuff like it's funny because the sauna like that's like the one like four years, like all the benefits about slanderer, always about toxins.

Right. Right. They're always toxins.

What are you talking about. Like show me what you're saying when you're talking about you talking about just regular sweat. But it does.

You do actually you do regular sweat doesn't have to be from Sonic and from exercise. But you do you do sweat out certain compounds like aluminum, aluminum, like it's funny that you can actually excrete certain compounds better from sweat than urine, because that's another way of eliminating things through urine. But aluminum, cadmium. And there's one other that I don't remember sweat. It's like the best way to get to that.

Just the conversations you have with people that are into releasing toxins.

It's like I know you talked in Mumbo-Jumbo talk most of the time.

I try not I try not to judge like I really do. You should judge, but I have a hard time. You should when they start to go there, I'm like, you should have a hard time and you should judge. I do, but I try not to.

Well, it's just they say things that they don't really know what the fuck they're talking about. They say it with such authority.

And I've had those conversations in public Sana's before to where people are people like they start getting into the toxins and the whole thing. And I'm like, I'm just sitting there quiet. I'm just like, OK, let me start to tell you some benefits, like some real benefits. Cardiovascular. Did you know that it actually mimics exercise like literally like that's been shown. It's been like compared like twenty five minutes in the sauna. Twenty five minutes on a stationary bike and same things are happening, you know, like blood pressure goes down afterwards, heart rate variability improves, you know, so same things are happening.

You're increasing plasma volume, heart rate increases, your temperature increases, right. Yeah. Exercise is doing the same thing. That's the antidepressant effect like that. I feel from the sauna that Charles Raisen published, you know, and that doctor, Dr. Mason, will hopefully carry on the torch. I think it's real.

And I think that there's there's potentially multiple mechanisms, immune, you know, modulations, but also just the fact that, like BDNF, you know, there's a study showing that hot baths do increase BNF and body and brain derived neurotrophic factor, which why would you think everybody would know what that means?

I know. I just I thought everyone that listened to your podcast that everyone is millions of you. I don't know what it means.

You do when you say it. We said, OK, yeah, brain drive DNF brain derive nootropic factor. Yeah.

What's so amazing about this neurotrophic factor is that it's always thought about in the context of like brain ageing because it helps you grow new neurons. It's neurogenesis, it helps already existing neurons survive. But there's studies now showing that it regulates what's called neuroplasticity, which is like the ability, like your brain, your brain changes, you know, with the changing environment. But you have to be able to adapt to that. Right. Like, children are really good at that.

Like they have a lot of neuroplasticity.

But neuroplasticity is is associate with depression, like not like not being able like stressful conditions and stuff like that, like not being able to like adapt.

I'm not using like the best of terms, but neuroplasticity is something along those lines. And so soon and BDNF plays a role in that. And reading has been shown to be, you know, to increase with exercise and also with heat stress.

I'm glad you brought up hot baths, because that's something that I wanted to cover before we got off track. When we were talking about song, when people that don't have access to a sauna, how much benefit can they get out of a hot bath?

Oh, I'm glad you brought that up, because there was, you know, so a couple of things. One, there was a study that showed hot baths can have an antidepressant effect, and these people were put in 104 degrees Fahrenheit baths where they were up to their shoulders for like 20 to 30 minutes. And the sham control was like a green light like. So people thought they were getting a treatment. They were getting some kind of green light therapy or whatever, you know, so it was a placebo control because the placebo effect is definitely a real particularly with depression.

And it it it had a pretty powerful antidepressant effect, very similar to Charles Raisen study with the hyperthermic chamber thing.

But when you say an antidepressant, there's no real way to measure that.

We have this whole. Yeah, I mean, so there are some there's potential biomarkers being identified to react to protein being one inflammation. Inflammation plays a there is like a huge link now between the immune system, chronic inflammation and depression, brain function in general, brain ageing, but inflammation. So, I mean, that's the there is there is a push for looking, but not all depressed patients have. It's like there's a subset of C reactive protein.

But yeah, depression is measured. It's a very much like a you know, have someone. So a subjective measurement would be a clinical clinical person, like measuring a whole battery of things they do.

I forgot the name of the test, but yeah, that's that's the test. So it's like basically a battery of feeling things. So it's not like a hard core quantitative biomarker which is so badly needed.

But the hot baths have also been shown. So heat, shock proteins which do like amazing. There's so many amazing things that he proteins do.

They've been shown to prevent muscle atrophy. And that's, you know, in the brain they're so important, like preventing proteins from aggregating in the brain. That's how I first got in that one of my first biological experiments ever because I was a chemistry major in college. So I was doing all chemistry stuff, organic chemistry and like chemistry. But after I graduated, I went to work at the Salt Institute for Biological Sciences and the way I was working in an aging lab.

And one of the first experiments I had that I was doing, like one of my first projects was. We were taking the human amyloid beta gene and injecting him in these worms, these nematode worms that only live like 14 or 15 days, and we are making them form amyloid plaques in their muscle. So basically, you look at these little worms under a microscope, still only about half a million, half a millimeter.

You know, they move around and as they get older and they're aging, they don't move as quickly.

You know, they're kind slower, a little more decrepit. But anyways, you give them this amyloid beta and after like a couple of days, they become paralyzed or they're like laying in their little petri dish plate on the cold food. You're you're getting them and they kind of just move around just to feel like their nose just moving around. And so when we would give them tons of heat, shock proteins in addition to the amyloid, totally reversed it like completely like they would move around and beyond.

So anyways, he tracked proteins play a role in like neurogenic disease. Also some links to like perving, depression and animal studies.

But can you measure he talks about team the bath versus.

Yeah, so that's been done. So the sauna, I know of one study where people that sat in a hundred and sixty three degree Fahrenheit sauna for 30 minutes had Heacock proteins. Their levels were 50 percent higher over baseline and which is great. And that usually, like animal studies show that that can they can stay elevated for like 48 hours after that.

There's a hot bath study where they also elevated wasn't quite as high, but it was like, you know, 40 or so percent higher than baseline levels and it was 104 degrees. But this study, instead of doing it from the shoulders down where I told you about the Depression, it was like only 20, 30 minutes. It was like from the waist down. So they had to stay in there for an hour. It's like a Jacuzzi, you know, where you're sitting there from the waist down and like that's hot.

Like saying in 104, that's that's pretty hot. But he proteins did increase.

So I think, you know, for for people that don't have access to a sauna, that hot baths absolutely are a good a model for heat stress. And I used it for a long time. Like I said, I just got a sauna. Like I've I've been I've made a career about talking about sonas, you know, and I just got one like last month.

So, like like I understand what it's like to not have a sauna and to have to use hot bath. But I was also using the gym sonas. But right now it's like there's no gyms that are open.

So yeah, there's a hot Basar like the only the only really choice if you don't have a hot sauna, no pomes on it.

What about cold shock proteins and the I mean, how much difference is it between taking a really cold shower ice bath versus something like krail cryotherapy, like the place that I took you to.

Yeah. So I mean, there's there's differences in I mean, so it depends on how long you're staying in a cold, you know, water, cold shower, like actually being submerged like from like if you're like in the ocean or something or a lake and you're like from your shoulders down, like that's probably much more powerful than just having a shower.

But by the way, the shower, like some days I'm like, what's matter? This this is not cold at all.

You know, it's just so variable where you like Southern Southern California, you live on the right the border of Mexico yesterday. So, so, so most of time now I shower right after this one. That's like my shower time now. And so, like I do about six minutes and it's so easy for me. I totally have adapted and I'm not sure if I've just totally adapted or if it's just like my faucet doesn't get it just doesn't get cold that cold, like it really doesn't.

Today I took a cold shower from home and my son is not there and I did it just because I wanted to have the mood affects the norepinephrine that's been shown to be increased and it was much colder. But then again, it was a different shower. I'm not sure if it's because I didn't have the hot before, you know, beforehand, like the hubbing hot and like getting in the cold shower.

Like, it just feels really it's a nice shock. But the cold shock, you ask me, cold shock proteins, that that hasn't really been measured in humans. What is measured most of the time with cold shock is norepinephrine, release and norepinephrine in plasma. And there has been studies correlating norepinephrine in plasma upon cold exposure, norepinephrine release and plasma to in the brain where it's involved with like mood and focus and attention. So there's been studies were like you could do a two minute cryo, whatever the average temperature, it's really cold, minus two for it is something like that.

Yeah. And then that could be compared to like, you know, a longer a longer duration in fifty degree, you know.

I think 50 degree Fahrenheit water or something like that, I don't remember the exact time, but but it is comparable, but you have to stay in a longer duration. So some people prefer ice baths.

Some athletes prefer the ice baths versus cryotherapy, even though it's probably more painful because it lasts a lot longer.

Have you done those ice? Oh, I've done it. I've only done the cryo. So I've.

Have you ever done the cold shower after your sauna? Yes. Do you like it? I like it a lot. I like it. Particularly after hot yoga. After hot yoga. After hot yoga.

Especially in the winter when it's actually cold. The water is cold. That's when I love it.

There's something mood enhancing. I mean, these things also affect the immune system, which is also very relevant, both cold and bright and hot. They both have been shown to increase lymphocyte numbers and also like other milit cells and stuff in people. But but like there's something like I've done the sauna and then gone into an ice bath.

And then, you know, it's just really it's hard. It's cold. I mean, you feel good. But, man, you know, I think just like got the guy's house I was doing and I was trying to impress them.

So, you know, I'm hardcore. I could do this, but it was it was pretty intense.

I do I do eventually want to get some kind of like they have those like like those baths that you can like regulate like regulate the water temperature.

Yeah. The ones that you plug in. And they're not ice baths. Exactly. It's cool. The water much work like ice. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

We wanted to get one here. We're probably going to one of doing that. Get one here. Good. Because you have two showers in the shower. Next the song is kind of useless.

So who uses the sauna here Jamie. Just me. You don't use this on those occasion. On occasion.

Yeah. I also had a gym I was going to for. You do use the sauna, though, right? Yeah. Yeah, I use it every day. I usually use it at home, but sometimes I use it here when I like, right after workouts like if I workout I try to get a workout here before, you know, like before do podcasts and I'll time it so they have an extra hour so I can get in the sauna.

That's awesome. Yeah, it makes a big difference for me, but I also just I think it might be a little too much before, like I'm always trying to regulate how much activity I do with whether or not I'm be exhausted when I do a podcast because I used to do yoga and then I would come out, I would get out of yoga at eleven or at ten thirty and I would do a podcast at twelve. And I was like, oh, there's no better way to one because I just be so because 90 minute yoga classes in one hundred and five degrees is fucking rough.

That's intense. It's rough. Yeah.

I've only done Bikram a couple times. I would love to like do it more. I loved it. Yeah. I really loved it.

Well I would wonder and I know there's there's supposedly some sort of Harvard study that's ongoing right now measuring all sorts of markers in people that have done hot yoga and whether or not it mimics heat, shock proteins that are created in the sauna. Because the thing is, like you are getting this incredible cardiovascular exercise because your heart's beating like crazy and, you know, you're not doing cardio persay, but your heart rate goes get jacked because of the heat and the stress.

And then on top of that, even though it's only 105 degrees, your body is heating up. You're really sweating up a storm in there. I mean, it gets I've taken some friends there that have never experienced it before, and they're like, fucking you over, come on, bro, yoga.

And then they get in there and then I look over at them fifteen minutes in the fucking day and I'm like, yeah, it, it told you it's it's not what you think it is because you're doing like yoga even uncoupled from the heat like the hot part.

Yoga is, is also like it's pretty intense, like holding those positions and stuff like your heart rate does start to elevate. I mean it's like just from that alone. Adding on the sauna, which mimics moderate physical activity that's been shown. Absolutely mimics it. And all the, you know, studies that have shown that on top of that, I mean, that's like it's it's super intense. It's intense.

The the really cool thing about and I want to get my mom I think once we move the sauna, like to our home where it's not like the office, like I want to people that are not people that are sedentary and people that are sedentary for whatever reason, maybe they're sedentary because they're disabled or maybe they're sedentary because they've had a lifetime of being sedentary.

And it's it is just hard to get them motivated to go exercise. Like the sauna to me is like that's so important because it's giving these people a potential cardiovascular workout. No, it is. That's been shown it's given them a cardiovascular workout without having to force them to go for a run down a bike. You know, that people think like when you tell them, go sit in the sauna, they think of like a spa, like, yeah, I want to go do that.

You get someone who's like like my mom, who she's she's sedentary. You know, she's she's not like a physically active person. And she needs to be.

But like the sauna, that's that's kind of my goal is to get her doing. And we'll have to start slowly because you have to adapt. You know, the heat shock proteins help with that as you the more the more times you're exposed to heat stress and the more adapted you are, like the heat shock proteins increase quicker. And so it's part of the adaptation process as well, you know, being able to handle the heat stress.

But like, I want to get her to do that because like any you know, any cardiovascular improvement is going to help her, is going to help her her, you know, all cause mortality that's been shown, you know, four to seven times a week, 40, 40 percent lower, all cause mortality, cardiovascular mortality, 50 percent lower. You know, so like I think that's a really cool thing about this, Onna, is that you can get people that are disabled, people that can't go for a run.

You know, I mean, I still think exercise.

I mean, it's just the best thing ever, period, for everything. Right. You know, for everything. It's just going to overall improve the way you age and that's going to make you more robust and resilient to anything, you know.

So to me is there's so many benefits. But one of the big ones is that muscles feel better, they feel looser. They're not as sore.

Like when I have hard workouts and I get in the sauna afterwards, I feel like my recovery's more rapid. Interesting.

That's interesting. Yeah, I because I don't do a lot of resistance training. Shame on me. I don't I don't have that same perspective.

But there there have been studies at least were localized heat on people that had a limb immobilized. I don't remember what it was. But after a week, people that had the heat treatment, local heat treatment, had almost 40 percent less muscle atrophy and shoot in animal studies. And like I remember, I like shared this animal study in an article I wrote years ago before the human study came out.

And like their critics, it's animals and blah, blah, blah. And you can't say it does this. And I would get on the mechanism. They showed it was hedgehog proteins. And there's all, you know, like and I was so happy when that human study came out.

I was like, told you, told you motherfucker. Like, that's what I wanted to say, you know, just a few of those those guys that you just like you like maybe I just I don't know, like do a big comprehensive search the literature and understand things and, you know, don't have that exact study just yet.

But like, I know that it's going to help with muscle atrophy.

So people love to dismiss things, don't they?

Yes, I really do.

Even if even if they're wrong, they just love to, like, fixate on confirmation bias. A little possible potential things. Yeah.

They might miss it instead of just being open minded and going, hmm, I think that happens a lot, too, with like social media, because like, for example, if I share one study, I'll share like an epidemiological study and it's like it's Twitter, you know, I'm doing 140 Kerry or whatever the change.

I don't know what the characters are now, but I'm doing a small number of characters and I'm just sharing one study. And if it happens to be a non randomized controlled trial, then, you know, it's just correlation doesn't, you know, doesn't equal causation.

It's like sometimes I just share a story because, one, I think it's interesting.

Or two, because I've read a bunch of, you know, evidence surrounding this topic, you know, about all the other clinical evidence, all the genetic labs, all the animal like. And and so I have a knowledge base here.

And so I share a study that may be isolated in and of itself, is not the strongest study. But, you know, it's like you can't read the comments.

You can't like you just can't. I can't someone else.

It's like trying to strike up a conversation in a porta potty because it affects me. Like I'm the kind of person where, like, I like to make people happy. Like, it bothers me when people are, like, unhappy.

It bothers me when people like, well, then don't go on Twitter, period, because most people are unhappy or YouTube. No, I mean, I, I guess that's not really the case for me, at least at the bigger audience. That for you for sure. I mean, the bigger your audience is, the more you get that.

This is what I try to explain to a friend of mine who was on the podcast who read the comments. And I go, do you just have to stop and think, OK, even if just one percent of all of my people that go from Instagram, like if you're reading the Instagram comments, one percent are assholes, just one, which is probably really conservative.

Right. You get a room full of people. There's 100 hundred people in the room. What are the odds that one of them is going to be an asshole? It's 100 percent right. That means there's 92000 assholes.

That's a lot. That's untenable. You can't manage that, right? 92000 shitheads who have half assed their whole life.

And they want to just they want to shoot people down, make people feel bad and just don't.

Yeah, it's not worth it. I don't. And it's and I feel for those people. I genuinely do. I feel for people that are in that state where they realize that they're not they're not happy, they're not happy with their own performance and aren't happy with their life. They're probably not happy with the relationship or their job. And they just want to spew. Nonsense and negative garbage. Yeah, I mean, that's that's the problem with not being able it's delicious.

It is really delicious. Cutcliffe, 25 milligrams CBD. All right. Thank you.

I got some other flavors to the the problem with that is you'll fixate on the one person that says the negative. Exactly. It's a not a natural human inclination.

And that fixation for me keeps me up at night when I lay down. Oh, don't say that. Like, I'm not I don't it doesn't happen much anymore because, like, I try like not to read.

I've gotten so much better at it. But you know what, I'm talking. Yeah, no.

In the early days of social media before I got a handle on it idea like, fuck, this is stress. It's like so taxing.

Like you get in discussions with people like what am I doing?

I think it's important to be critical. And I get like, you know, there's there are people that are really trying to, like, make, you know, prove something. And there's there's all sorts of incentives for being hypercritical.

If you had rational people who are kind folks who have interesting viewpoints and they looked at something and they found something to be wrong with that, and they handled it with, you know, grace and some sort of modicum of dignity and kindness, they'll be great. Yeah. I mean, there are those people to. Sure.

Like, if you were having a discussion with a good friend and the good friend was looking at something that you said and said, I disagree because of this. Look, I have conversations with good friends all the time and even on the podcast where I disagree with them. But we handle it like friends. Right. But that's the problem with Twitter, is that you don't see that person. You don't you know you don't know them. You don't want to please them.

You just want to be mean, you know, and that's what a lot of people are doing. And they're just getting their rocks off there. And I feel like now for a while during the pandemic, when it started in the lockdown started, people were nicer. There was less social justice outrage. There was less this. But now it seems like as times gone on and people getting more frustrated and more desperate and more depressed because they're locked up, it seems like it's ramped up.

It's hot.

I mean, this is unprecedented. Right? And it's horrible. It is. I, I miss I miss my life before the pandemic. I miss taking my son to the park. I miss our our soccer classes. And I mean, like music classes. I miss it. It is hard.

My kids are having drive by birthday parties where they drive by with fucking bounce. Yell out the window, happy birthday. Like fuck. And they're never going to forget this. They're never going to forget how weird this is to do in all their classrooms on iPads. I'm like, this is so weird.

See, my son's at an age where he's he's not going to really remember. Well, I mean, depending I you know, I really think that I think things will start we'll start to get better.

What doesn't I'm going to move to a place where it's better because I think the way this this state is handling it is fucking terrible. They're treating us like we're infants.

Some of the list they've given you of a proven activities and non-approved activities, that's highlighted it for me, because the list I don't know if you see in heaven, I didn't even know that. Oh, pull it up, Jamie.

There's so fucking stupid, because you've got to realize these people that are writing these lists, these are not experts. These are bureaucrats. These are politicians. These are people that really have no business telling you what to do and what not to do. They're fools, but they're in a position to influence millions and millions of people. So they have the ability to tell 40 million people what they can and can't do, make that a little larger so I can read this.

Look at this, athletics, badminton, singles, throwing a baseball, softball, BMX riding, canoeing, singles crabbing. You go crabbing, you'll find crabs, cycling, exploring rock pools.

Oh, can I, can I exploit rock pools. You fucks gardening. Not in groups.

Golf singles walking.

No kaat why. Why can't I take my card. Who are you.

Wow. Hiking trails and paths allowing distancing horsetrading singles jogging and running. It gets gets grosser meditation. Oh you can do outdoor photography.

I didn't know I thought that was going to kill everybody. W what is, what is the top of this. What, what's this headline. What does this page grooved outdoor activities. L.A. or the California gets worse.

Scroll down. It gets so stupid towards the end. Oh look. Soft martial arts taichi choung not in groups Chee Kong.

They listed the martial arts like fuck off table tennis singles trail running trampolining. Oh can I get a trampoline. Thanks. Did no. How about this one. Watch the sunrise or sunset. How about wash the car. Oh you can wash the car. Oh great. That's great. I thought rocks were falling from the fucking sky and I couldn't watch the car. Jesus Christ. But that's what drives me bonkers in all cases. You should only do these activities alone or with members of your household.

Make sure you keep six feet of distance. Between you and those outside your household, you fucking how have you been like doing comedy bits like. I know. Have you been like writing?

No, no, no. I've written anything. No. Yeah, I thought I should, but I haven't. I've decided to just just accept where this is. And then when comedy clubs are about to open up, then I'll start writing again. But I'm just I mean, just accepting where this is. And I want to I want to have an honest take on it. I don't want to be manufacturing a take or trying to, like, come up with some sort of a hot take on how I feel.

But I want to know how I really feel about this and how I really feel about this is very different now versus the way it was in March, because in March I was concerned and I was like, Jesus Christ, this could be terrible. We really have to stockpile food. We really have to make sure that we have water purification. We really have to be careful here. Now, I'm like, we've got to be careful. These fucking politicians now in the place where you guys have to understand these people.

People are starving. People don't have any money. You're telling people they can't go to work, but you're telling people they can go to work in some places, like why is it OK to work at Target but it's not OK to work in a family business? Why is it OK? You know, let's let's figure out testing. Let's quarantine the people who are sick. This strategy that you guys have, you're not adjusting and adapting. You're not adjusting and adapting to the numbers, the mortality numbers, too, because they're way lower than they were before.

Plus, now we have this understanding of the asymptomatic people and how many people have tested positive that are asymptomatic. It's off the charts. It's somewhere in the range in many studies of 70 plus percent of people that get in contact with this are asymptomatic, but test positive for the disease. That's crazy.

Asymptomatic. Yes. So that's the thing we got to be careful about. We've got to be careful. About 40 to 50 could be like there's probably a range of friends.

The I think the entire disease, it's out of their system. They never felt it. Yeah.

I have one friend who he did have had tightness in his chest, but he actually was in outside of like in December.

So he was like, got it. You know, like at the time he just thought it was some like a little like whatever that's called chest. Yeah. But it was like just mostly just tightness. He said it wasn't like, you know, that's what's crazy about this.

It's so there's so many variables in terms of like how people how people are affected by it and what goes wrong, because there are so many variables.

Yeah. There's your your your genetics. There's your immune system. Like how is your immune system shaped by what your there's your diet that's included in it, your vitamin D status, your you know, there's there's you know, the other interesting thing and there's been no studies with sars-cov-2, but there have been influenza studies showing that viral dose. It's really interesting studies that have been done where I don't know who volunteers for these studies, but like sign me up to get influenza.

I want to be right.

Was polio virus somehow get people healthy people to to do that?

And there's been these studies where people are like untrodden intranasal, like they'll give them various titers of influenza virus and they the point of the studies to figure out what viral dose and they have like some measurement, like in in tissue culture or whatever, and they like to to make people have symptoms.

Right. And they found with influenza, I forgot which a or something.

I think one of the strains, it was like they could do a certain dose, like ten to the seven in tissue culture or whatever units were. Seventy percent of the people would get like symptoms ranging from fever, you know, cough and all the influenza, you know, flu symptoms. But then when they went down to from ten to the seven, let's say they went down to ten to the five only like 10 percent.

And people were getting sick. Like, it's kind of interesting, that viral dose, at least with influenza.

And there's actually been some other studies. I think measles also that it is it is a thing, not something that you want to, like, go and experiment with yourself. But, you know, that's another possibility for sure.

We hear about nurses. Yes, they're getting way more sick right now because they're I mean, that could be one reason right there.

Their actual job is to be around infected people. And they're intubating these people and they're they're doing it.

It's like, oh, yeah, you're getting it right in their faces, right? Well, some of them, they have poor people, especially in the beginning when you're seeing these people that were like using makeshift masks and just trying to. It's horrible.

Yeah, I think with the masks, you know, for for people, I mean, reopening the economy and, you know, some places have been more successful, you know, like, you know, even even in like Japan and stuff where, you know, the wearing the mask, like the cloth mask doesn't do much to prevent you from breathing in maybe a respiratory droplet or something or aerosol.

Right. That you know.

But but it will prevent you from spreading it, you know.

So to a certain degree, like I get that people don't want to wear masks. Like, it sucks like that. You know, who wants to wear a mask, but maybe to open up the. The economy, again, like now, maybe like everyone could wear a mask if they're going to be inside around a bunch of people other better than keeping the economy better than keeping the economy close.

I'll be willing to do it. It's not going to be forever. You know why? It's not going to be forever? Because we're going to figure this stuff out. We are like it's already we're already finding repurposed therapeutics, the monoclonal antibodies, people working on that. That's going to be coming soon. That the monoclonal antibody you were talking about, the Lomis. So the whole point of that is that they're identifying antibodies that can neutralize the virus and they're going to grow them and manufacture them and give them to people.

And it'll help treat eventually they'll identify one that works.

What kind of a timeline do you think they have for something like this? Oh, I think that I think things are going to I mean, I think that these therapeutics can start the monarchal. So like DeSapio has already been identified and there may start to identify other ones like the pancreatic pancreatitis drug in Japan. Chemist at something. There's the Pepcid. I mean, there's a lot of different repurposing drugs that are being investigated, you know, and I think over the next couple of months and then Regeneron is already, you know, doing one of these monoclonal antibodies.

I think in the next couple of months we'll have more therapeutics than we have right now. That'll that'll make things less scary. People will be less scared of getting sick because they'll have you know, they'll have a better idea of, oh, we have some more, you know, things that can therapeutically treat this, you know, successively. Hopefully people are going to start looking at the vitamin D. I really like that. I really hope that.

If not just I hope people are going to, you know, take their vitamin D or ask their doctor to take it, you know, but yeah, I think that in a couple of months.

Like, can you wear a mask for a couple of months and like, here's why it's not going to work to just have the people that are vulnerable wear the mask because the cloth mask isn't going to prevent them from getting, you know, the aerosolized drop if you're spreading it and asymptomatic, which is that it's been shown that you if you are asymptomatic, that CDC study I mentioned a while ago about how symptomatic versus asymptomatic after a week when they came back to measure the people again, they found that out of the 13, 10 of them actually did get symptoms.

The other three that were asymptomatic had as they were, they were spreading sorry, shedding as much virus that could make them, you know, basically contagious and, you know, basically able to transmit the strains. So the point is that I think that I know people don't want to wear masks. I have I have family members that think it's like infringing their freedom, you know, and like it it does suck. And I know people are. I mean, the thing is, like also children, I don't know how to tackle that issue because it's really hard.

That's that seems a little more difficult.

But like adults, you know, you know, I think that if you're working, you want to open your your your restaurant back up your, you know, like masks.

I think that that seems like a good compromise.

Right. Doesn't it? The children, it's real weird with this disease because some children are getting sick, but it's a very small number. But many children are getting in contact with this disease and how many of them are asymptomatic but are spreading it.

So there have been there have been quite a few studies looking at children that are asymptomatic, children that have mild symptoms and children that are symptomatic. And so far, so far, the studies have shown for the most part that children even that are asymptomatic are shedding as much virus as both children that are symptomatic and adults that are symptomatic, meaning they're like they're able to transmit it. They're shedding the virus through the sprinkler systems. They are they're they're like, you know, like I used to never get sick.

Yeah. And then I became a mom.

And I mean, I think, first of all, the first year it hit me hard because I wasn't sleeping, you know, because you have to like every three hours you got to feed, you know, feed the baby.

That's a giant factor in your immune system.

Oh, sleep is huge. We didn't talk about that. I know you've had Matt Walker on the podcast. I've had him. I mean, he's talked about it before and lots of other researchers have studied this. Sleep is so important for immune function. I mean, so important. But I mean, we're all not no one's working because they're probably getting more sleep now.

But they're also stressed out and they have anxiety in particular, if their bills are piling up and they have no income through.

It's awful. It's really awful. It's all really awful. It's awful for so many of these people that didn't do anything wrong. They didn't do anything wrong. They built a business. And now that business is crushed.

Man, I think you've got to have the option. You got to give people the option to go to work. You have to you can't you can't do this, especially given one option.

But where yeah. This is not the plague that we thought it was going to be. This is not the horrible tragedy. It's not.

It's not. It's definitely not like I'll agree with you on that. Like, I think like a month and a half ago, I mean, I thought I was gonna see body bags in the street like I was I was like, this is like going to be really bad. I was terrified and it thankfully has not been that bad. I mean, New York City got hit pretty hard, but, you know, we have been on lockdown, so that has to be accounted for.

You would I'd like to see in New York City, particularly when they were getting hit, you got to think this is New York City in January, which is January. It's wintertime. People are knock on door. I wonder how much the vitamin D deficiency varies depending upon the winter, the winter, it's been shut.

There's been seasons, right? Tons of studies showing that vitamin D levels are much lower in the wintertime. It also correlates. There's been studies correlating it with seasonal affective disorder and all that. But yes, January, all those vitamin D deficiency is lower for sure.

But I would like to see a study on whether or not it varies between the East Coast in the West Coast, because over here we do have all these sunny days and people right outside far more often than they are in New York or California. Yeah, and they were less clothes. They're wearing T-shirts, they're wearing shorts. You know, you have more skin exposed.

Someone might have done that study. I would like to see that study because it makes sense. Look, and people are shittier over there. Maybe that's why they're shittier, you know? I mean, they're cold and grumpy, I'm sure. But also maybe that is not feeling well because vitamin D deficiency plays a factor in that as well. And I would also like to see something done on whether or not that contributes to how many people get sick over there.

Because when I lived on the East Coast, when I lived in New York, I got sick way more than I get sick out here, I'm for sure. Healthier, more cognizant, definitely more proactive.

I think all of those things play a role. Personally, I think that, you know, that there's been enough evidence showing that vitamin D plays a role in particularly respiratory infections, psychosocial stress like stress, cortisol like that, but dampens the immune system. You know, so when you are stressed, you're you're you're basically you're not in a in a good situation to to fight off, as you were mentioning with your friend, when you're stressed out, like your immune system is dampened and you are more susceptible to illness for sure.

And that's also that's also known, you know, so I think all those things and then the sleep. Yeah.

That's why it's so rough with all those people stuck inside and stressed out, you know, all the financial pressures that people are experiencing right now because of the lockdown.

Yeah, it's really it's so horrible. Yeah, it is horrible. It's horrible. And it's not getting better.

I hope. I just hope I hope that, you know, we can reopen the economy in a very safe manner where we don't have, like, flare ups that, you know, we don't want to be set back to like shelter in place again, like full on.

You know, I'm not going to do it again. I'm definitely not going to do it the way it was before. If it's the same disease, I don't think it's warranted. It doesn't make any sense to me.

I think not. So it doesn't make sense. Right.

I think social distancing makes sense. I think sanitising making sure you're using hand sanitizer and cleanliness and all the good stuff. And if you want to wear a mask in public, that makes sense to, OK, I get it.

But this mask and it's like inside when you're in places, I think like if you're going grocery shopping. Yes, sure.

But test people. How about that. Absolutely. At work.

I mean, I test everyone that comes in here. You told me you'd been tested and I guess got tested again on Sunday, tested. And I'm clear and I did that right when I got back from Jacksonville because I'm in Florida, even though everybody's been tested, I'd like to get tested again. Just just for the fuck.

Yeah, I'm hoping that the accuracy of the PCR test improves. I don't I have you know, I don't know if there's like a but you mentioned one test. It might be coming out. I hope that's do the saliva bit. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I don't you know, I'm not sure.

What factor do you think, like when we're talking about Centage before one of the things this is a respiratory disease and this is something where you're breathing in these particles. And from what I understand, that this is a vulnerable virus in terms of the temperature that it can survive in. Yeah, obviously it's in your body, but when you if it's in your nostrils or if it's in your respiratory tract and you're breathing in that heated sauna air, does that have any effect at all on on viruses?

I think, you know, that hasn't really been studied.

You know, if the virus is like right in your nostrils, I don't know, maybe.

But I think it's already like getting if it's already getting inside, you know, the the respiratory, you know, area like your body's kind of maintaining homeostasis. So like the breathing and some of it off.

But I think and reduce the viral load.

I don't I think that I think what you don't want to just speculate? Well, no, I think what's actually the sauna is actually just it's improving your immune system. And I think that doing the sauna is making you more resilient against against infection like there. You know, like like that's been shown. There's been small trials showing that people doing a sauna. I forgot the the duration, but they're you know, they they were much less likely to come down with the common cold.

But, you know, they had to be doing it for like at least three months. It wasn't just something that you could like you're mentioning, but, you know, at the time of getting it also the respiratory illness connection, there have been correlation studies out of Finland showing that people actually, I think the study was men, only men that do use this on a two to three times a week. They're twenty seven percent less likely to have pneumonia after correcting for.

If they use this on a four to seven times a week, they're 40, 41 percent less likely to come out the after correcting for socioeconomic status, physical activity, cholesterol, lung, you know, smoking, COPD like asthma, all those like, you know, lung disorders. So, you know, the sign it does seem to be associated with lower incidence of pneumonia, but it's thought to be because of immune, you know, perturbations. And also like the there's a heat shock proteins and all those things like help.

There's like an antioxidant effect in the lungs, like things like that. So he tracked proteins also do have antiviral activity against at least influenza A.. So the heat shock proteins directly can activate urinate immune system, but they also have antiviral activity against influenza virus. So, you know, I think that that the heat stress in the sauna does help.

Now, there's another study that did look at humidity and the effect of humidity on basically like the ability of your epithelial cells in your airway and nozzles and stuff to filter out particles and particulate matter and like viruses and stuff and humidity actually made a big difference. Like humidity, like the higher the more humid, the better that was. Was acting basically able to you're able to like filter out stuff, whereas dry it was like that makes sense.

So it does make sense, but I don't. Yeah, I just don't know the answer to your question.

I'm not sure I when the whole thing started, when the lockdown started, I was getting the sauna really hot. Then I was put in a bunch of water on a nose breathing big, long, deep nose. And it was burning. Yeah, but I was doing it too. I was like, I'm killing you bitches and killing all you dirty viruses.

And I would take these long, deep nose and the whole inside of my nose be like stinging and everything.

But I was like, it's got to be killing these things though. But then, you know, I was talking to a doctor about it is like, well, you know, I was like, would it. I was a Osterholm, right? Yeah. I was asking him, was it Halstrom or is it. But the hotels, maybe, yeah. And he was like, you wouldn't be able to breathe in that temperature, would it? Would it wouldn't be hot enough to kill it.

Mm hmm.

Maybe the way you do the song, like, how are you doing a sauna?

Like, you know, people think about the song. They just think about sitting in there and breathing.

You know, you're breathing. The steam is hot. I mean, they're burning. But the question is, is like, you know, there's there's homeostatic processes in these cells and stuff and so is it.

Actually, I was doing the sauna too hot at one point in time, I was doing it at 210 degrees because of crazy Laird Laird Hamilton had me convinced.

That's not what I did. I've done. I haven't done. I have like I've been to to Rick Rubin's house and we've done like it was like 200 and something.

Barroso, Laird, Hamilton, Laird, I talk, but like I was about to, like, go to one of his I was like literally going to get on a plane and go to Hawaii. And I'm like, Laird, I'm doing this thing. I'm bringing my son. We're going to all like make a trip. And this it was happening in March.

And right when it all went down, I was like, OK, one day, one day later, we'll do it. One day we'll do it.

So he gets in over two hundred degrees with a fucking aerodyne bike with oven mitts on this crazy asshole is riding in Aerodyne.

And I say, crazy asshole. With all due respect, because I love the guy, but he's riding the air time machine in a fucking sauna.

I'm like, bro, I so I did that 200. I bet you was the same because they like do the same protocol and this was like to 10 or to 20.

It was so hot like, like, like I, I was, I was like on some kind of mind altering drug like this like and I think that's the point with those guys.

It's the other thing that happens is and then we'd go into this ice bath and there's like this bath right outside and we're like, did all this ice. And like I said, I was like trying to impress Rick.

So I was like staying a nice long as they could, you know, think I'm cool.

So I get back into the sauna and and like, getting back into this like two hundred and ten or twenty degrees on it.

And you feel like it's like room temperature because you were just in this ice bath.

It's the weirdest feeling. It's really. And then you do that like we did it like three or four times.

I don't remember.

But but I was like I started out the conversation.

I was like, he tried protein's and I was like talking science. And at the end of the conversation, I was just spilling everything. I was like I was just telling them all of it was just kind of you open up basically what were saying, I don't remember.

But I wasn't talking science to life.

I was like, one day we're all going to die and then the sun's going to explode. It's going to create carbon and it's going to create more life forms.

Yeah, I think I think Gabby Gabby, Larry's wife, um, she she has a podcast earlier.

She didn't. I know she still does. It's called Like the Truth Barole or something.

Is it was it was that one time.

I don't know the names changed or not but I thought that was so awesome because she named it after like the sona because the truth comes out, you just start talking like, yeah, start you know, it's intense.

There's my eye watering anyways.

Two hundred and ten degrees. I was finding that it was burning my throat and I think I was doing it too often too.

Was burning my ears and my so we were, it was dry for us so I wasn't, I wasn't experiencing that as much but I had to like get on the floor because like I felt like my hair was going to fall out, like I was burnt, you know, it was just so hot.

So how long he gave me a hat. So I don't remember.

We I mean, I was like trying to like.

So what is the benefit of it being that hot, though? Is there any benefit to that? Over 180.

I mean, I think that you could just stay in for so so the thing so the thing is, is that like with most of the studies that have been done, looking at the benefits on cardiovascular health and all in all, cause mortality quite a bit lower, like twenty minutes at one hundred and seventy four degrees.

But, you know, if you're if you're if you're at 210, you can't stay in there for twenty five minutes or twenty minutes. You can though.

I mean I guess eventually I was doing we were in there, I was in there for I don't know how long and then I'd go in the ice and then go back in there but I would get out and I would collapse.

You were actually in there for twenty minutes too. Yeah. A two and a ten degrees. And I would get out and I would go out to the mats out there and just collapse. Yeah, that sounds like too much. Eveillard too much.

Do you, do you do like electrolyte replenishment. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Cause I take liquid I.V. actually. Oh okay. Yeah. Liquid is a great electrolyte supplements I take.

But you know what I found. What works. Popcorn. Popcorn. Why. I'm just getting the sodium.

It's like my tea. I like love. I love like I love Bob.

I don't to but boy I wear a continuous glucose monitor. That thing will go to like one sixty five like just from like you know, just from the corn, just from the popcorn milk.

And I'm typically like you know I'm like my, my meals that are like, you know, low carb, like I usually like I eat more like a paleo ish diet, you know. So it's like meat and vegetables, like, you know, my meals don't get me over one hundred for sure. No, it's the popcorn. So I'm doing like popcorn. Yeah.

Popcorn will spike it really bad. Certain things will spike it worse than others. But but the popcorn. Sure. It sure tastes good.

You know, good electrolyte I guess with the sodium. Salt it's so. With salt and butter, oh, man, so delicious, I figured out this, the perfect food for four movies. We can only eat it in our office though, because we have a two and a half year old. And it's like a big show. It's like the number one choking popcorn is like the number one choking. Oh, I can only imagine.

Right, the colonel. So I think. Yeah, yeah. I choke on sometimes. Yeah.

The thing about the sauna, 210 degrees to one of the things that it was happening to me, I was getting headaches and my throat was burning like the next I was coughing a lot like and I was like I think I'm fucking up the actual tissue in my throat. Oh man.

Because when you cook a brisket like you cook a preschooler to ten thousand nine to 20, the headaches, I think is a sign that you've pushed it too hard. Yeah, I was doing. Oh yeah. That's that's intense. 20 minutes into it at 210.

But I got addicted to it. I got I get addicted sometimes to things that are really hard to do, just like so in my mind I'm like because it's so hard to stay in there for 20 minutes at two hundred, ten degrees. I mean it hurts, everything hurts. Your skin hurts, your toes hurt like it hurts.

And then, so then the next day I would like look forward to doing it to see if I could do it easier again. And then I'm like in this weird loop that my own brain creates which is really bad that I'm very addicted to trying to conquer things.

Yeah, I'm a bit, I'm a bit that way. Yeah. So that was the thing. And then, but then I took a step back. I was like, I think I'm fucked myself up here.

One eighty, one eighty is great. I like 180 Fahrenheit for sure. Yeah I have, I have. I told you my xylitol story.

I wanted to tell you this Xyloto. You chew gum. I know you do. I remember like after show like you chew gum right. Sure. Do you. Xylitol gum.

I don't think so. You have to do it.

OK, what is so good about. So I tell you my story Zettl is it's like from Burchett's from the Bertsch plant we were just talking about.

It's the natural, it's naturally found in plants. So it's that Bertsch you know what they're whipping. It's from that plant. It yes.

It is used as a like if you're eating it, you know, I think it could cause like like you're with a tall kind of thing affect where it's like too much GI distress. But when you're chewing gum or using toothpaste, many studies have shown that it kills anaerobic bacteria like streptococcus, cockiest mutans that cause cavities and dental decay. Really? So so here's my story.

Like multiple studies in humans showing this, it's like a big deal. So I went to this is before I was before I had my son. I went to the dentist. My dentist is a really great and he did an X-ray. We were doing a cleaning, you know, dental hygiene thing. And and he comes back and he's like, you've got two cavities.

And I was like, how about cavities? I don't need sugar.

Like, you know, I've just I've got like a bad oral microbiome or something that I've just for four years or I don't know, I shouldn't have cavities because I don't eat sugar.

But anyways, I had to because you have two cavities there at the point of no return where, you know, like you, they're I guess they penetrate the enamel a certain amount and they're like, you have to you have to like, get them out. And so the way I am is I always like to like, look into everything before I do anything. It's like, OK, this is not my field. I understand. I told him, I'm like, I'm going to do some reading research and see if I can find, you know, if there's any, you know, possibility that don't have to, like, get a filling.

Right. And he's like, OK, well, if you find anything, please send it my way. So so then I found out I was pregnant and so I was like, OK, well, I can't go back to the dentist.

And at that point I, I was like looking through everything on my toiletries and everything, like, what do I have to get rid of what's in there that could be harmful and smells like fluoride like in my toothpaste. So I was like, I don't want to use fluoride toothpaste anymore. And these stories are going to connect.

But so fluoride fluoride has been shown. A lot of people are worried about the effects on the brain. And the only solid evidence I could find on negative effects of fluoride on the brain are in utero, meaning pregnant women. And you know, the effects on babies. And I don't know if toothpaste has enough to even do anything, but in my mind, I was like, no, getting rid of the fluoride. You know, I got a I got a water filter that got rid of the fluoride in the water.

And I was like doing all that.

So I came across this xylitol toothpaste and say, well, this is my little toothpaste.

So I started doing research on xylitol while I was looking for alternatives to stuff like Tom's of Maine. I can't use that crap.

I've tried it before. It's like like it's like my my teeth get dirtier. I hate that it is so terrible.

It makes your breath smell worse. Anyway, so so I was like, I've got to find something that they taught the main course I came across.

This does xylitol stuff and I started doing research and then I found all these studies and not only did I find studies that like it, you know, basically kills these bacteria that cause cavities, that mutans pregnant women that chew xylitol gum.

By the way, the studies were with gum, not the toothpaste. The people were cheering this gum and pregnant pregnant women like they were like six months pregnant. The study started at six months and they chewed this side. Gum all the way up until anywhere between the child, you know, the baby being six months and there were some studies that went out like a year, and then they met the the researchers measured the oral bacteria of the toddlers. And then they measured in multiple years as they became children and the mothers chewing it, chewing the gum.

It lowered the incidence of the solutions in the children because, you know, mothers kiss their kids and they transferred oral bacteria. And so they're like they're chewing xylitol gum had a positive effect on the child's oral microbiome.

And I was like, yeah, I'm going to do this. I was like I gave myself TMJ. Like I chewed so much xylitol gum. I was pregnant. And like, I still like to this day. I truly have some with me right now.

But TMJ is, what am I saying, the right thing. Like, it was like popping my jaw was I was eating a lot of sauteed kale and chewing a lot of xylitol gum when I was pregnant. And so but it totally fixed itself, thankfully. So anyways, a year goes by.

I have I have my son. Eventually I'm like, OK, I got to go back to the dentist because, you know, pregnancy makes your teeth worse. There's like all this stuff about you bleeding, your gums bleed. There's like there's some kind of term where, like, women get like like what's that periodontitis or gingivitis. One of those. Too bad. Anyways, so I go back to dentists, we do the x rays and I'm like, oh, you're going to tell me about the stupid cavities?

And I haven't done the research, you know, and it goes he comes in and he goes, I've never seen this before, but your cavities are gone. And he shows the X-rays and he shows me before and after. He's like, they're totally gone. And and I was like. That's amazing, as is the pregnancy, and he's like, no, he's like we get women coming in here after, it's like worse. And I said the only thing that I did, like I could think of is like my obsessive xylitol gum chewing, which I still do.

And the fact that it does decrease the I don't know how it would affect an already formed cavity, but my cavities are gone.

So so my doctor might see my dentist is great because he like, you know, any dentist could just be like, no, they're still there.

Like, I don't know what the x rays will look like. So so I feel like he's a trustworthy guy.

I like that. But it's nothing to worry about. Shifty down the street. Yeah, but you do anyway, right.

Right. So that is crazy. So the xylitol gum somehow. So you think that what it did was affect your the microbiome of your mouth?

Oh, and it's showed there's also studies showing that it decreases the incidence of I'm talking about staphylococcus mutans because it's only when I remember. But there's another one that causes dental decay. But it didn't affect any of the good bacteria in the mouth. Wow. So so I was like, okay, now I'm just like, it's all staphylococcus.

And that's the same. Is that the same family that you get from staph infections and no different stuff? Yeah. OK, but I mean there's lots of different staphylococcus, blah blah blah blah, you know.

OK, so it's so the Xyloto you need to get on it. It's really awesome. Like it's, I really think it's we already are.

That game we've been doing as Eilerts on it. Oh the neuro gum. Oh OK. Yeah I've been chewing this neuro gum that is it's gum with nootropics in it. Nootropics.

Yes I think so. I was like, I was like eating a bunch of GCE and cocoa Kurkova like capsules like the the the catkins in the dark, dark chocolate for mine.

What's in it.

I'll find you know al-Thani and see I was looking for my LPT but I was out because that like helps Karmiel.

It's got a little bit of caffeine in and B vitamins. I fucking love it. I love it.

I take it before I do kickboxing workouts, a chew chew gum.

I used to mince too. I used to.

I'm sorry. It was Nuru. Yeah, as B six and B 12 also, that looks interesting, I used to take when I was like doing long distance running, I was running like eight to ten miles a day. And I was doing that like I was running about 50, 50 miles a week, which is pretty good. You know, this is like when I was in my early 20s, but I would like dose up on all these like B complex vitamins.

And I swear I would I would have endurance just for sure. I don't know if it was like placebo or not, but like B 12 is a big impact on your ability to do work. You think so? Oh, yeah, for sure. I haven't done any research on it, but I just know that I used to take them and I felt like a big effect. I don't know.

Yeah. Big 12 shots. You were going to be totally shocked. I did. So that I intravenous vitamin C, I think it had to be 12 and it should be twelve shots give you an awesome little boost. Yeah.

But I haven't done like a specific B B 12 shot. The stuff is pretty good and I don't feel anything like that's not going to get you high.

I don't feel anything weird. No. No.

Isn't that isn't CBD supposed to like also be like calming one. It relieves anxiety. Yeah.

Yeah. You just got to get a good CBD, like a good CBD that doesn't have THC because I have a few that I've tried from other the the tincture that I take is from CBD and it doesn't get me high at all, but I've had some from other companies where I'd have like three dropoffs full.

I'm like, oh OK.

Does it help, does it help your sleep. Yes.

Or does the is are you required to you know, different people have different results when it comes to CBD and some people find that CBD with THC benefits some more and some people find that it's just the CBD itself. But CBD, amd, the company that I use, what I really like is they have a bunch of muscle creams and like, you know, stuff that you rub on the outside of your muscles. That's just fantastic. It's really good.

Penetrates into the skin and it's just really good at alleviating soreness.

And I had a so like one of my old colleagues and science colleagues was telling me that like they were measuring some samples from like different CBD products and like the majority of them didn't actually even have much CBD in them at all.

Like there's just a lot of I mean, you know what I mean? This has been shown with vitamin vitamin, you know, vitamin supplements as well. There's been so many studies showing, like even vitamin D supplements, like it'll say it has 10000 IU, but it only has like 6000 like. Yeah, there's been sampling where you like you go to like Walgreens or CVS.

Erm you know, you just whatever random place and grab the vitamin. They don't have the concentration and isn't high. Also those like echinacea, things like a lot of it just cloverleaf like this is clover because it's not regulated, I mean regulation kind of bullshit anyway.

Like what does that do for you, you know, supposed to jack up your immune system. That's it. Everybody always told me that they're all sick all the time, that people like their military.

And so they were zinc deficient, taking a be twelve deficient, too. Yeah. Yeah.

No, I know I haven't looked into the economy. Someone like someone asked me about the elderberry. So so I looked into that. And because I was like, is that like an Ignacia thing?

But there is some actual legitimate research elderberry like has been shown in randomised controlled trials to like effect know the immune system and lower cold duration and stuff like that, you know. So are you a fan of Kombucha, do you.

I I'm a fan of Kombucha. I used to drink. What is the one I drink. The dark one. Ginger Lemon. I can't remember the name.

It's no I used to but then there they are. Sugar that the sugar and that one's too much. So the one that I drink is two grams per serving and there's two servings so there's only four grams of sugar.

The sugar though is what helps the fermentation and helps the fungus grow. Right.

I think this is the one that had like eight grams. So it was like twice as much and the other and the ginger lemon one. I like the ginger lemon a lot and I like this one.

Tastes better. So the ginger lemon does. Yeah. The one that I'm getting, it's like it's found it like Whole Foods and sprouts and it's don't have the same amount of active culture though.

That's the question. I don't know. It's in a dark bottle.

You once told me dark bottles better.

Well the dark bottles better watch because it doesn't ferment in the sun as well. Doesn't the sun doesn't penetrate.

OK, almost like UV protector got got microbiome. Health is important for you to function. It really is like like that's another thing. We're Kimche. Oh yeah. I love energy. I eat the shit out of that stuff. I love it. Do so I that.

What's the I get I buy it, buy it from sprouts or mother in law.

Mother in law. That's when I say that's what I get. We have some here. Yeah. Yeah. I love that giant.

It's so delicious too. And I love it with meat. Meat. Yeah yeah yeah.

We've, we've been like we have a bunch of elk burger we we ordered online order so on.

No no no no. I'll give you some. Yeah but I mean I hadn't come over here. Why here.

We have stocked you up. We were like you early on.

We were just like we bought freezers I elk burger. I need all the work. I know. Right. I'm just so thankful that it's not as bad, right, I mean, I really am thankful as well, but I think our government needs to make an adjustment. They need to recognize that it's not as bad as start opening things up. But there's so many people that are just the sky is falling. The sky is falling. Still, they're still saying and they're still screaming from the rooftops like we can't or people are dying and people are dying every day from everything there are, like you said, testing, too.

I think that's going to make a big difference and test. And I think people will become less scared as these as these therapeutics do emerge, which which which they will, I'm sure.

Absolutely. But what I really wanted to talk to you, the reason why I wanted to bring you in here is this conversation that we just had to talk about. What are the what are the methods you can use to help boost your immune system, keep your body healthy? I think we kind of got it dialed in. So vitamin D seems to be very critical, saying if you have it, if you don't barthe vitamin C orally, you need a big dose and it's still not going to have the same effect.

If you can do IV, you don't need to do it. But once a week and they take zinc, zinc plus quercetin for your course time and then sleep, sleep giant and microbiome.

How do you use anything to help you sleep in terms of like a meditation app or do you.

So I use melatonin.

OK, well here's my way. I used to not so I have a history of night terrors and it was I mean.

Well, it's like when I, when I'm stressed out particularly, it flares up and it happens like when I'm I think when I'm shifting from one sleep stage to the next where I am asleep, but somehow I wake up, but I'm not awake and I can still but I'm moving my body and I think that someone's in the room and that they're going to come get me.

And I freak out and I scream. And it's happened where I scared Dan.

Of course, he's like in the middle of the sleep and it happens earlier in my sleep cycle.

So it's like but I have so I started doing I started reading about this stuff and like, I don't want to like the treatments were like Bonzo's. I'm like, hell no, I'm not going to take benzoate that's, you know, been shown to like cause dementia. Right.

Yeah. So that's terrible. Terrible. And it's like, yes, it's very addictive.

And then like, if you if you become addicted to it, I mean, it can like you can like go through a series like Die.

Well, Jordan Peterson just went through all this and literally had a benthos. Yes. And went to Russia to have some sort of crazy medical detox.

That's awful. He's still suffering from it. I mean, I don't even know he's been fucked up for, like, a really bad. Wow, that sucks. Yeah. So I didn't want to do that. But there was there was some studies showing that high dose melatonin, you know, more in the like ten milligram range. So I'm taking nine milligrams a night. And I totally stopped having for the most part, Dan says, yeah, like I went through one episode where what happens when someone has a nightmare is like if someone else in the sharing the bed with you, like, tries to stop you or help, like because I'm still asleep, I'm not aware that that's my husband doing that.

And I really think someone's trying to get me.

And so I just go into like crazy mode and I like I like somehow like crawled from our bedroom all the way out to the living room.

And by the time I woke up, I mean, I had bruised myself. I was like, how do I get out here?

You know, like this was like the worst. This was the worst that's ever happened to me.

So usually I just kind of scream and wake up and like, I'm like, look, I think someone's going to get me, you know, melatonin totally, totally stopped.

It totally stops it. I measure I track my sleep as well.

And I think that, you know, I don't know the sleep stage stuff, how accurate that is.

I think it's not very accurate, but duration is pretty accurate. So. So what do you not think is accurate?

Like, tell me like how much time I'm in deep sleep. I monitor that are offering. Oh, I don't think that's accurate.

I think that the I don't think the sleep stage is accurate was because like that's like you have to like measure brain wave like it's measuring, it's I'll tell you why, because I've had multiple incidents when I was nursing my son back when I was nursing my son where he was on a nursing pillow.

And I'm very relaxed. Of course I'm nursing him. Right, making oxytocin. And I'm like scrolling on my phone reading. And it calculated me as being in REM sleep. And it happened. It happened more than once.

There's other times. So Dan and I don't we don't have a TV in our room bedroom, but when we go travel, we're in a hotel, we're in that.

So we're laying in bed watching a show. And I'm like totally relaxed in bed. And it's totally putting me as calculating as asleep. So I'm like, you know, you know, it calculates heart rate and movement and body temperature.

So, you know, I like it. I do. I just I don't think that it's totally accurate, considering my only real way to measure that is those little suction.

A couple things you put on your head. Yeah, right. I did a sleep study once because of sleep apnea. So you do? Yeah, so I had to do that. Do you do a C Pap or. No, I have. I got a mouthpiece and it's amazing. Yeah, it's a mouthpiece.

Tell me what it is, because my father in law has apnea and there's a doctor, Dr. Croppy, and he's a very wacky guy. Ropin.

Yeah, I'm supposed to write that down. Is that going to look him up?

Yeah, you can find it, Brian. Corruption in these in Tarzana. Yeah. Pressure is in Tarzana.

Oh, he used to be out here. Well, he was in Tarzana. And then I think you might have moved to Sherman Oaks anyway. You'll find it. I'll find it. I'll find it. I'll send it to you. But anyway, he devised a mouthpiece. It has like a little tongue depressor. And for me, my problem is my my neck is very thick. There it is.

What is a. Yeah. Full breath solution. CPF alternative.

Yeah, it's the ideas. A lot of people have a problem with Seabass. It's uncomfortable you them right over your face. That's how I felt. And so this mouthpiece of sleep apnea mouthpiece, it sits in my mouth and the tongue depressor keeps my tongue from sliding back and closing my airway. Wow. You go in. So I was OK.

You did go on. So I went in. I had a sleep study done. Wow. And it was bad. It's hard to sleep probably when you're in those. Right. Like you're.

It is. But I did sleep, you know, because I was I was sleep deprived. That's what it looks like.

So it sits in that little tongue thing, pushes down on your your actual tongue, like, does it have to get fit like a.

Yeah. Like I would. Yeah. You go in there and they, they do molds and stuff. Exactly.

Yeah. It makes a big difference. Wow. That's awesome.

I've gone places and forgot it in a panic like fuck.

Yeah. I mean like not being able to breathe. Yeah. So that's, that's a huge thing.

I had that at first because I was like am I just like freaking out because I'm like not getting enough oxygen or something, you know.

But they had me do a pulse oximeter thing and the wrestlers and athletes, football players get it because your neck muscles get really big and when your neck muscles get big, you know, big tongue and I have a big tongue. When I lay down, it closes the airway. So my tongue slides. Oh yeah.

No, you just associate with obesity. Yes, yes. Well they get fat. Yeah. Right.

That's one of the ways that they there's operations that they do to try to alleviate it and they just cut out some of the tissue inside your mouth and then they also cut out your you could avoid tonsils.

So you don't worry because I wouldn't be able to talk for like a month.

Right. If you don't wear it, do you snore? Oh, like crazy. But when you wear it, you don't normally. I don't stop at all. Yeah. Your wife must love it. She loves it. Yeah. Before I was off and I also choke.

I can't breathe you know, because my body's forcing to adjust.

I remember I was on a plane once and there was this guy behind me and he was a kind of a heavy fellow and he was, he was really snoring loud.

He was laying on his back and really snoring loud. And then he would go without breathing for multiple seconds. And I filmed him and I, I told him when he woke up, I go, Hey, man, I go, do you know you have sleep apnea? And he's like, no, I go, listen, I have to go, but you got to do something about it. I go, you hold your breath for long periods of time because really I want to show you.

Yeah. So I showed him. He's like, fuck yeah. Dude, this is really bad. It's associated with so many different things. It's associated with high blood pressure, heart attacks, the risk of all sorts of ailments. Plus you're just not sleeping enough. You're not getting real sleep because you're constantly being woken up and shocked into the state of like, no, it's really bad.

It's bad for you and it's bad for your spouse. Like, my Mother-In-Law has to go. She goes into the guest room to sleep, like after they go to bed because she can't sleep like it's really bad. Do you have to do this to get the.

Oh, man, I wanted to kill that guy.

I have no idea.

It was like I could just I'm like, yeah, it's like having someone that snores is like, you can't sleep. No you can't. I can't wear my ears are like earplugs.

First of all, they're not comfortable for me.

I have really tiny ear canals and I just like I can't some people can sleep with earplugs, like I just can't.

It's I just it's uncomfortable. Yeah. Snoring is a real issue and it's usually an issue of, you know, some sort of impeded airway.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad I don't have that. But the nightmare thing, I'm just the melatonin has helped so that's great. Yeah.

Anything else, is anything else help you out for sleeping. Yeah.

Oh I mean I think that that going to basically like having a good circadian rhythm and, and like bright light exposure in the early morning, like it really does help. Like there was a time when I would you know, like I lived in in Oakland. I was just in this dark little apartment and, you know, like it just it wasn't really great for my circadian rhythm because I would wake up in the morning, especially like on weekends and stuff like, you know, there's like no.

Light coming in, and I didn't I wasn't I didn't live in a place that was like I could just go outside and frolic, you know, so.

So, like, you know, Frolick in Oakland don't really go together.

Well, yeah, but yeah. Bright light exposure, big to big. It was like a huge thing. And the red light. So I have I do the Philipps you wear at like five o'clock, all the lights in our house go red. That makes a huge impact on my son and his sleep cycle, like because children are really sensitive to light because they don't have like cataracts and stuff. And so the melody, they're they're like, you know, that melatonin is not being produced.

So like if we go travel or go to my in-laws or something, they have the lights on.

I'm like going around the house, turning well off because, like, I want my son to go to bed at an hour.

You want do you if you're looking at your screens, do you use blue light blocking glasses?

So I have like all the apps and stuff and most of the time like and I turn my my my iPhone screen is like down and they have the black background and all that. But no, I don't wear glasses.

I just. Yeah, those are great. You should look into the blue light. I might see it because when I actually get a chance to watch TV, like it doesn't happen much because right now my son falls asleep at like nine and he wakes up at 6:00.

And so like, Jesus, I have to go to bed immediately after he stops.

So I'm like wondering when do I when can I cut the nap out? Like, I'm Googling everything, you know, just trying to figure it all out so, you know, you have to keep napping until they're three.

And I don't know, I got to, like, do some more reading because, like, it's not that's not uniform.

I know my youngest never want to take naps. She's like, fuck off staying awake.

Oh, my son doesn't want to take he doesn't want to sleep ever. He wants to party all day, every day. He's like, it'll start to heal. It starts to like get a desk. And he's like, it's still daytime, daytime.

And I'm like for a little bit it's going to be nighttime soon.

What about if you get active, if he exercises. Yeah, well, it's we used to go to soccer class and stuff and go to the park, but it's hard with the shelter in place right now.

Probably got a lot of pent up energy. So we've been doing like. Yeah. So I've been trying to like take them, you know, like we do like hide and seek and run, run, run and where I'm where I'm out.

But, you know, I think I think the bright light exposure for him, you know, taking him out in the morning is really important. And now that light, because we you know, now now I'm able to do that more like I feel safer.

I like, you know, like so. Yeah, especially being outside. I don't I'm not as concerned. So, like, I think that's really important from bright light exposure is just there's just study after study showing it sets your circadian clock boom. It's like, OK, this is this is this is like the morning and your circadian clock starts and then, you know, so you become sleepy when you're supposed to become sleepy, as long as you're not in tons of, you know, bright light at night.

But that's been probably the biggest thing, by the way. You know, it's actually I was talking about my glucose monitor, my continuous glucose monitor. We're talking about popcorn. You know, the biggest thing that really affected my glucose levels wasn't popcorn. It was actually lack of sleep. Really? Yeah.

Big time effect.

Like, particularly if I wasn't exercising like like almost pre diabetic level fasting blood glucose, like when this is this is when my sleep was being disrupted, when like my son was like younger. So I've been working my continuous glucose monitor for a year and a half, maybe two years now.

You wear this. What is it? Mine's mine's right here. Oh, you have a patch that you wear on your all time. You're not diabetic. No, no. I've seen a guy who wears one of those, but he's diabetic. Yeah.

I mean, I'm wearing it because I'm sort of trying to understand how different foods have different lifestyle changes, like how long you've been wearing it.

I got it probably right after the last time I was on here.

OK, right. Literally, yeah. Just constant wear for years then. I've been where yeah. It's been, it's been almost maybe two years, almost two years, a year and a half. But I most of the time constantly where it's sometimes because it only it's like the sensor lasts for ten days and have to change it and sometimes I like forget it and a couple of days go by and then I start like eating the pomegranate because my son loves that.

I'm like, I wonder what this is doing if I click cause but the lack of sleep because he would wake up like I would be getting interrupted multiple times at night, like, you know, where it was like I don't know, he was going through some developmental stage and and he would stand in his crib and it's like so I was I was getting woken up multiple times at night for like prolonged periods, very, very like fragmented sleep. And I was nothing had changed with my diet and my blood glucose, my my fasting blood glucose levels.

If I'm if my exercise routines dialed in, I'm not like shelter in place, you know, it's about, you know, mid eighties.

And so I was up like I was up to like I'm fasting.

Blood glucose would get up sometimes to like if I wouldn't exercise like one, I might wake up in the morning and I'm like, one, two, six, one. Seven one two nine, so wow, and that big, big, and it was totally repeatable, why is the lack of sleep? Cause there's so many studies published. We did a video on it and like it's I mean, it effects like the insulin secretion, sensitivity, like all that stuff.

It's all being affected.

So it's one of the reasons why, like, you know, shift shift workers like A really are prone to Type two diabetes.

They really are.

So sleep is so important, but those poor people that it's going to be one of the worst things for your nurses, like doctors, anybody, the first responder, health workers, anybody is working the late shift.

Dan, Dan had his appendix removed like he so he had was this crazy story.

But you probably have to go crazy, is it? Well, it's pretty crazy, actually. So he had the appendix thing happen. We were visiting his parents in Memphis and it was like Christmas Eve. And so he had to go to the hospital. He's like, that's bad. I need to go to hospital. So we went to hospital. They're like, yeah, you have appendicitis. But he didn't feel comfortable getting it removed there because there was just a bunch of factors that Doc wasn't his doctor, like, you know, all that stuff.

So he got this antibiotic treatment there, like sent him home a couple of days later, he got some IV treatment. And then it came back like a couple of months later or like a few months later back when we were home. But he was like all of a sudden, like the first time he had it, he was just like, pain. I should go, something's wrong. The second time he was like vomiting and like, you know, you know, I didn't want to like I had my son was sleeping.

It was like 2:00 in the morning. He woke me up. So, you know, we call the first I call the ambulance. I was just like, you know, he's vomiting. I don't know if it's a ruptured, you know, because it could be serious.

Right. But anyways, he's first and the whole point was the first responders, they came and they were just like, yeah, we don't ever sleep. Like it's like we don't ever sleep. It's just so awful for them, terrible for you.

So anybody's working the late shift. That's got to be so bad for you. I used to deliver newspapers, so every morning I was up at five o'clock in the morning and I was also doing comedy. So I was going to bed really late at night and I was just always tired. I just I would just be sitting here. I just fall asleep.

That's awful. Yeah, it was terrible. A lot of a lot of people are sleep deprived, so. A lot. Yeah, a lot. Yeah. It's a huge factor. Yeah. Well I think we covered a lot today. We got we got a lot in the vitamin D information was so fascinating. All of it. I appreciate you very much. You're always an awesome resource. I really think you are awesome to talk to. Thanks so much for having me back on Park.

My pleasure.

Any time tell people how to find you. It's found my fitness, my fitness. I had everything. I have an iTunes podcast as well as my fitness. Yes, YouTube channel found my fitness and a website found my fitness and found my fitness Instagram. My fitness Twitter. That's right. All right. Thank you, Ron. I appreciate. Thanks, Joe. Bye, everybody.

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And I learned so much as I always do. I'm gonna have to go over this one again and take notes. And I hope you got as much out of it as I did. Much love to you all. I hope you stay and say bye bye.