Welcome to the Jordan B. Peterson podcast, I'm McKeyla. This episode was recorded on January 29th, twenty twenty one, and is with the illustrator of dad's newest book, Beyond Order.

Juliet Fogger.

Dad has an illustration Parool in this new book that Juliet did and they are stunning. You can get them in poster form at his spring shop on his website at Jordan B. Peterson Dotcom under shop, if you're interested. He has a poster with all 12 rules on it with the illustrations. That's pretty cool.

Juliet Fogel's worked as an art director in New York City for 13 years and is branching out on her own. Now they discuss the stunning art she created for Beyond Order, her life story, artistic composition, her muse, one creating Photoshop, fine art and more. This episode was made possible by Green Chef. Green Chef is the first USDA certified organic milk company. They ship ingredients pre measured, perfectly portioned and mostly prepped so you can spend less time stressing and more time enjoying delicious home cooked meals.

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I have the great pleasure today of meeting for the first time, oddly enough, the illustrator of my new book, Beyond Order, which is out March 2nd. This is Julia Folbre, also known as Juliet. We're going to use Yulya. It's very nice to meet you. Very nice to meet you. I thought it would be interesting for us to talk today about the illustrations that you produced and also how that came about. So I'll start with that.

My previous book, 12 Rules for Life, was illustrated by Ethan Van Sciver, and I liked his illustrations a lot. I thought they were very successful, but he had other opportunities that he was pursuing. And so I was obliged to find another illustrator for Beyond Order. And I decided with my team, my daughter and and my family members actually mostly in discussion to. Run a contest online and solicit drawings. I thought that would be. Entertaining and interesting and perhaps allow someone an opportunity that they might not otherwise have obtained, and so we received hundreds and perhaps even thousands of of of illustrations of proposed illustrations.

Do you remember, Yulya? Did I ask for the illustration of a rule or more than one rule? Was that how the contest ran?

No, I know exactly what you asked. You asked for one rule for Stone and you asked the line drawing.

So it was a first rule line drawing, right? Because we needed something that would work well in black and white.

It's a tricky thing to produce an illustration for a book because whoever's doing the illustration has to know enough about printing to ensure that the illustration prints well can be reproduced well in print format.

And so anyways, we looked through a lot of. We looked through a lot of artists illustrations and Elysées stood out and I think that the contest was inconsequence, very successful. I'm very pleased with the illustrations. I think they have an interesting fairy tale quality to them, kind of classic fairy tale quality to them, a Victorian quality as well, which seemed appropriate to the content of the material. And so. Anyways, we received Julias entries and then worked with her over well, the contest was run in.

It was March of 2000 to 20, March, March a year ago.

Yes, yes. And a very tumultuous year, which is part of the reason we haven't met. The pandemic lockdown, of course, is kiboshed. Any plans we might have had to get together. You're based in New York, correct? Yes. And so I on under normal circumstances, I'm going to New York fairly frequently, but of course, haven't been there before. It's got to be at least two years now.

So what I'd like to find out some things about you. So the first is tell us a little bit about yourself. Where are you from? And and I'd like to know a little bit about your life.

OK, so I was born in Riga, Latvia. One of the trio there is Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania, Baltic countries. Are we aboard the mix of Poland and Germany, I would say. And the old city was built by German. But I lived in the area where I was the only Jew I'm Jewish, I was the only Jew, and the rest of the people were all Russians. There were no Latvian settlers. And you would see in movies nine story buildings built like dominoes.

It's all dominoes, concrete. I hated it.

I saw a lot of that in Moscow. It's endless. An endless vista of 20 floor high apartments stretching as far as the eye can see in every direction. Yeah, it's very a very.

Unwelcoming architectural manifestation, I would say cold and harsh, exactly, and I was young enough to go outside of this neighborhood if I were 15 or 16, I would be able to start going outside and going alone. And so the whole shooting took offense, which we had, but I couldn't. So, by the way, let's go back. So I had a talent for music, my mom was a music teacher and I had the perfect pitch luckily so the best of me.

And they said I'm. I'm perfect for conservatory. I was seven, they put me in the music conservatory. Obviously no normal kid would show something like that for their life. It was vicious. It was a lot of entraining combined with Russian training. What you would see in jazz clubs, it was vicious. So tell us about that. So did you. Was that a residential school or were you still living at home?

I was still living at home.

And and how many hours a day would you spend at school and practicing?

So seven. When I was seven, I went to regular school and some years exposed to different places I had traveled by Chumby. Chumby is something you see in the San Francisco travel. Yep. Yep. Streetcar three or four stops not far away. I had twice in a week of a class, so our class and I had to practice everything at home for at least an hour and that was my life. I also draw. Which was. A side project.

It was taken seriously by anyone, by me that your music was taken seriously by you and your parents and my parents and everybody around me and kids in school. And I was known as a musician. And did you take any pleasure in that was music good for you or what? No, no, it was horrible. It was I was good at it. But it's I blame the teachers and I blame the school because they would prepare kids for orchestras.

They will just process talented kids for orchestras. There was no love of music involved at all. It's something you saw in Junior. The teachers of Japan, they're intimidating place, and that was a music school. And we were playing classical music only for seven years. It was a classical training and they found that. Leaving somebody else's tragedy was very sad. The music was sad and was not for me. So by the end of third year, so they can't do it anymore.

I had a crash, I was on the floor crying and my parents tried to convince me nothing worked. So my father said he took the liberty of saying he'll give me a puppy when I finish the school. And that finished the school. It was 1991, and so how many more years did you go after that, even after that? Four years. So you worked four years for your puppy? Yeah. Did you get them? No.

Oh, I hope doesn't, because I finished it in 1991 when the Soviet collapsed and left the country.

Right. So geopolitical restructuring got in the way of your pet.

Yeah, and he left to Israel when your family left Israel and why why did you choose to leave? Why did your family choose to leave?

In 1991, the Soviet collapse, 91. We left at nineteen ninety two. The collapse was in 1990. Right. It took us time. So we lived through bad times in Latvia, bad times in terms of food or anything, really. There was no food.

You know, people don't know a lot about that post-Soviet period in the West. You know, I have my son in law is Russian. I think he's about your age young. He has some pretty harrowing stories of early nineteen nineties Moscow being afraid to go to school, not knowing if he was going to come home alive.

You know, rough. It was a very rough period, lawless and chaotic period by his account. And for you, you said food shortages.

Yeah. My father stored potatoes and sauna for a year. That's all we ate because there was nothing on the shelves. Nothing. And how did you come across?

How did you come across the tuna and the potatoes? And you have to ask my father, OK, I don't know.

I wasn't involved in his decisions. And he saw that in the work place on the ground, in someone's garage, I think. And and bread was my I remember staying in line. For an hour to get a piece of bread, we had tickets, you can only get one bread for three days. I think I could be mistaken, only one piece of bread. There were two choices of bread in Russia throughout Soviet Union, white bread and rye bread, nothing else.

So I will send it for an hour. And people were spitting and angry. And I was a little girl, but I got this bread and I'm running home. And my mom was cutting the bread and it's grain completely green inside. So that was my life until 14, then we left to Israel. And did you encounter you said that you were the only Jewish family where you said you were the only Jew, a Jewish family in the in the entire area, in the neighborhood.

But did you encounter prejudice because of that or was that an invisible sort of cause?

I was bullied to help.

And so was that a part of the decision to go specifically to Israel? Yes. And we had no other choices. Germany was clotheshorse, America was close to us, that was the only choice. We didn't know anything about Israel. It seemed like a nice place from where I was, I was very happy because I felt captive. For 14 years, I was trying to escape this place in any case, any price, how large was your family?

You have siblings.

So most of my family was killed during the Holocaust. Forty people, they just brutally killed everybody. And a very small portion live. They survived. And that's why I'm here. I have one brother. And so your mum and dad and you and your brother lived in this apartment building in Riga. Yes. How big was the apartment that you and your brother and parents lived in, what they consider in America?

It's a one bedroom apartment. It's one bedroom for us and the living room for my parents.

All right. So you moved to Israel in ninety two. Ninety two. And how old were you then? 14, 14. And how long did your family spend in Israel? My family still living there. Your family still there. So was that an improvement? No, not for me, for everybody else. Everything seemed to be improving for everybody else. But I couldn't find my place. I was always. Not at home until I came to New York and things have worked out for you in New York, absolutely.

Well, that's good.

So it's obvious that you're capable of finding a place. It just took a while. So what happened to you in Israel? Why do you think you had difficulty there?

First of all, we came with no language. Second of all, I came from Europe to read the list. So it's a matter of. Natality. I just couldn't get it. I just couldn't be part of it, and we lived in a very poor area, very poor area. What did your parents do in Israel? How did they keep. How did they make ends meet? So my dad became and became he was an engineer and he started working in some factory.

My mom was working at nights in the bakery. It was tough.

So they can find employment. But it was it was it was tough here.

I started working when I was 15. I've collected oranges.

So you moved. How old were you when you arrived in Israel? I was 14. Almost 15. Right.

So that tends to be a relatively tumultuous time in a girl's life anyways, those teenage years. And you didn't have you couldn't speak you couldn't speak Hebrew and speak for two years. For two years. Others could speak three months. Just being just listening, just being on the street, they could speak. It's not how my brain works. I had to collect it for two years and I couldn't get anything out of my mouth. And that's the problem I have with languages in general.

Hmm. Yeah, well, that definitely sounds difficult. So when did you move to New York? How old were you when you moved to New York?

So in Israel, I stayed for nine years. Uh. I've been in the Army, which is a separate subject to talk about. Then I finished two years of old school, which was three school, three years. But they only finished two and then I was offered by the head of our department, I was offered the job in first private studio, so I just. Drop out, I see. So that was you went to art school and that was on the basis of your prowess in visual art?

Yeah, it was my dad's idea.

And you had to stop playing the piano by this time.

Oh, I don't play piano from the moment I arrived to Israel. And have you played it since? I've started to play in New York. That was the first thing I bought. Oh, and have you been able to take any pleasure in that? Absolutely. Well, that's great. So that's a happy ending to that story. And it's very rough becoming. It can be very rough learning any sophisticated skill because the learning period is often not particularly rewarding.

There's so much you have to get by rote. I mean, when kids learn to read, they have to be able to read phrases and perhaps even sentences at something approximating a glance before they take much pleasure in the reading. And so there's this initial period of rather painful apprenticeship that's not necessarily that isn't necessarily accompanied by intrinsic pleasure and meaning. But if you can get through that, if you're lucky, then once you have the discipline, you can enjoy the skill.

And I'm glad to hear that that worked out for you. Are you a good pianist?

I'm good. I just stopped playing classical music, I was not meant to, meant to be and what music do you play and what music do you enjoy? Rock pop has anything but right. So you have a modern sensibility musically. Yeah. What about bands? Who do you like?

Oh, and there is a reason for that. My dad bought me a recorder for cassettes, took a player that was. The I was 11 or 12, max. And success came along with it. One was queen. And another village joke, which Queen album of I wish I remembered was a good night at the opera.

Did it have Bohemian Rhapsody on it? I think so, yeah. That's a night at the opera. That's definitely their best album.

Yeah, and that's the first thing I listen to. And I remember just sleeping next to my my my my player was here. I couldn't I couldn't do anything else. I was possessed. I was obsessed, completely obsessed. I've never heard or seen anything as beautiful. There was no beauty in my life. It was all monochrome. Everything was black and white in this area from.

Yes, physically, there was no color, even the clothes were all black or dark brown or what are winters like in Riga cold minus 20 Celsius is the coldest. And we had to go to school. I remember that. So you moved along to New York. OK, so let's go back. You said that you you went to art school on the basis of your talent as a visual artist, despite the fact that that wasn't something that was that you really had concentrated on with regards to training.

You were trained as a child, as a musician, not as a visual artist. How did you pick up that talent? I was the best in class. How do they pick it up? First of all, I didn't want to go to school of graphic arts because of computer training, I said I'm never going to touch this thing. Technology. I can't I'll never acquire something like that. That's too much of a skill and technology is not.

So they said first year you'll only only have to draw by hand. Everything we're going to do, we're going to do it by hand. No computer involved. And they bought me. They they built me completely with that. So first here, everything we've done was drawn.

And you had to submit a portfolio, I presume, as a as a condition of admittance. Yes. But you'd been drawing on your own.

Did your parents support that or were they opposed to it or was it was a great support that they supported it?

Yeah, OK.

And they didn't see that as something that they were the hipsters of the area considered the hipsters. They were the free spirits. The art was supported. And how much time did you spend drawing when you were a kid? A lot. I was not just drawing. I was making Mosaic's. Odem Mosaic's out of what, out of wooden, colorful, different shaped. And. When you had to do is just imagine what you want to build and just go for it from the center.

Outside and the size of buildings, it was the size of almost a small rug. It was that big of a bag and I would spend two or three hours. It was a blessing.

So then you went to art school and you spent the first year drawing by hand and that was OK. You were afraid of technology or loath to use it. So so that was that what happened in the second year? I just grasp that it's just I just went along with it, and so you learn to use computers before you became fluent with the use of computers, then better than everybody else.

So what do you think made you believe to begin with, that you weren't able to do it or that you weren't suited for it? I'm just afraid of technology.

Well, you should be everybody should be afraid of technology, but it's still probably better to know how to use it.

I think you should be less afraid of it, perhaps if you know how to use it. It's very powerful. I mean, technology has disrupted my life in a manner that is absolutely not only inconceivable, but perhaps irrecoverable.

But anyways, it's brought many benefits as well. But it's so powerful you're taking a tiger by the tail or perhaps something much bigger than the tiger. So slaying dragons.

Yeah, or maybe they're eating you depends. So, all right, so you you you learned you became sophistic, sophisticated technology user, your second year of art school. So what advantages and disadvantages were there to bringing computer technology to your artistic endeavors? Photoshop is a unique thing. I would never be able to layer up players the way I do or imagine things the way I imagined before I start. I don't think of graphics in terms of. No Photoshop any more.

It's an unbelievably powerful program. It's like a factory Photoshop, there's there's there's no limit to what you can do with an image.

It's actually it's kind of a terrifying program in some sense, because it can if you're the least bit obsessive, it can pull you in and trap you forever because there's no limit to the number of variations you can produce. And I mean, I'm a rather amateur Photoshop user. I've used it a fair bit, but I certainly haven't explored all of its capabilities.

It's it. You can spend a lifetime doing that. Absolutely. I hope we're doing that. That's my that's your lifetime. That's my goal. So, OK, so you you you finished two years of art school and then you were offered a position by the director of the program. Yes. And that was still in Israel. Yes.

And what did she or he that was a achieved and what did she have you doing and why and why did what did she think about your decision to stop going to art school to take the job?

She noticed me. She noticed me. And she came to a graduation and we had the final project. She was there the whole time. And after the final project, she said, Can I speak to you? And I thought, I'm in trouble.

And she offered me because first of all, I spoke Russian and she had a client. And second of all, I was good, that's what she told me. I had no idea. I didn't believe anything she said and I was completely. Living outside of myself at that point, what do you mean, living outside of yourself? It's hard to describe I couldn't fit into Israel, right? It felt to a large beltways. And nobody knew what I'm speaking about.

So how long did you work for her for four months. Backing up when I was 15, I met a boy on the street, it was two weeks after I arrived and that boy is my husband right now. Oh, he left to New York in 2000. In 2000. And I followed him. I see, and so was that what stopped you from continuing the job? Yes, that's exactly what stopped. He's leaving. His departure was a devastating.

When he departed, had you to plan to meet up again in New York, was that the event that was then killer and what changed? And he stayed here for three months until he called me and he said, I've seen people and I don't see them non-transparent. I'm just looking through them. I don't see any of them. You need to come because I see you hang. And so you uprooted yourself from Israel. How old were you? I was 23.

Again, no English, no language. Does ABC again the same story just this time I came along. But you like New York, not right wing, moderate wing. It was tough, it was tough in the beginning, and we had the first child a year later, I would describe my life as 40 years in the desert. That's exactly what it was, 40 even more 40 to. How old are you now? Forty three. That's not many years out of the desert.

No, it's just the beginning. All right, so you're in New York and you're learning to speak English, you're newly married, you have a new child. Yes. And again, total three years. It's OK to start speaking. And I would just the words would scatter around my head. I would just not be able to find them. They always hiding behind there a field. And I know they're there, but they hiding behind the rocks.

It's very complicated. It's very hard for me to speak because words I seaboards. I don't hear words. For me, the words are pictures and I memorize them, and when they are in the sentence being able to reread, that's why it was so good for me that we corresponded. Because I could relate and I can understand exactly what you mean. And so did you work when when you arrived in New York, did you work as an artist right the way you did?

How did you find work? It's hard to find work as an artist. So how did you manage that?

I thought I'm going to clean the restrooms. I was walking around looking for Orthodox schools or shuls just to clean the bathrooms. That's what I thought I'm going to do. So weeks passed and they went to photo developing studio. We had some photographs. It was the winter. It was beautiful. I came there and the guy before me. Wanted to make some reattachment on his old pictures. And the guy in front of me at the desk said, yes, we do that, but that's going to take us a month to come back to us in the month.

Some get into the desk and I'm saying I can do it in one hour, maybe Lisk. I don't believe you. Let me try. He sat me down and he had the jaw look, probably 10 pictures that was supposed to take him a month to retouch. And I've done it. And one day. He said, I have somebody in mind. It was a Jewish guy. Obviously, they had somebody in mind in New Jersey, which is far.

That's how I got my job. And I stayed there for 13 years. Hmm.

And so tell me about this place. It was a photo studio.

No, he told his friend, obviously, and he had friends in graphics. I see more than that. It was a catalog company that was created in catalogs for mostly jewelry, but not only mostly jewelry, which is the hardest thing, because a retail chain of jewelry is the hardest thing. And we had everything. We had a printing facility under our roof in the same building. We had our photographers who had me. So everything was going on.

I was on top of everything he made me and our director. And I was an art designer and our director and the company closed up in 2000. It 16. It was five years ago, hmm. And you managed that was your English functional by that point or.

I wouldn't say so, no, we didn't need to speak a lot. He he learned to trust me within a year. He knew he just knew that everything I do is going to be lovable. And he knew I'm always right. He just loved. Just do that. Just do this, I work three days a week, which was amazing, I got my salary for a week, I had two boys, but that time. And I got sick.

Oh, what happened? Well, I'm not sure I'm still not sure what happened. I was always sick. I relapsed and I was destined to stay home, so I stayed home and there was one choice either I should suffer from pain, why should I do something while I'm suffering from pain?

And that was the only thing the. Made me disappear. I, I forget about the reality. That's the only thing my Photoshop and I've started doing graphics for no reason.

OK, so when did this happen? So you you've got to go to work. Is that the case? You got too ill to work. And so you were staying at home. When when did that happen?

Five years ago. Five years ago. So I'm skipping. I'm skipping. That's OK. We should move towards the discussion of the drawings anyways, but we're getting close to we're getting close to the present day. So you became ill about five years ago and did you have this story?

No, I was ill, but I became very ill. I didn't think I will survive it.

And you don't I don't want to press you any more than is comfortable for you, but I had no energy at all. Zero. And I had two kids. And you talked about pain as well? Yeah, the pain was tremendous, and then I got also on top of it, I got fibromyalgia. They they couldn't treat and the pain with fibromyalgia that you can treat it with. Anyway, so I thought, what would I do with my life and 40, I was almost 40.

OK, I'll paint with oil paintings on canvas out of the blue, and it worked and every painting was better than another, I was keeping it a secret and my husband said, you can't keep it a secret. People must see. So seeing why I couldn't grasp the idea of somebody else has seen my work. I've done this for two years, and eventually I had a show in Chelsea, New York. In the gallery, it didn't go so well and I knew that I have to switch and it was so hard physically, it's all so hard for me to paint.

Too hard to paint the paint here. So sitting in front of the desk was an option for them. That's how I started doing graphics.

So I'm at Agora Galleries page. Yes. Which will link into the into this. And there's a number of images there. An orange. A tangerine. My mistake. A painting called Accepted, these are oil on canvas. And I haven't seen them since before. They're they're as good as I would expect, given your illustrations and do you do you use any digital technology when you're doing your oil paintings?

No, not at all. So that's tell me a little bit about how you go about it. They're beautiful. I was just trying to copy exactly what I see in the photograph, those I see, if you see only what they're cops, you would see it on my website copses, my favorite three cups of coffee.

And where can I find that?

OK, that's truly great. That's me. Juliet, fogger dot. And we got it. Oh, yes, you have the illustration for the illustrations for beyond order up there. So and I should go to portrait's fine art. Oh, wow. And which one do you like the best, three cups of coffee? Oh, yes. There are close ups, so you can see how close they are, one wants those things. Forty eight by 30.

Mm hmm. And these are done from photographs.

Yep. Wow. I mean, something similar to this one where you use squares. So there's a sort of like Mosaic's. I already did, I read a famous oil painting by. Now, I can't remember his name, unfortunately, it's reclining nude and pixilated it in large cubes and then cut it out of Styrofoam foam core and layered it like my maps of meaning painting. I did about ten of those when I was in my mid 20s and I haven't done any since I got these three at the bottom are very reminiscent of that.

They're yeah, they're really they're very intense. Have you been successful as a fine artist if you've been able to make a living? No, no. Well, it's very difficult to make a living. As a fine artist.

I was able to spend everything I had in my savings. Yes. Aha. Yeah. And these people ask for. They call Gísli Prince, yes, on canvas and special color, not just regular throw down some money, not for leaving. No, no.

And have you been successful at selling your original images? No, not at all. And any idea why? I mean, apart from the general impossibility of doing that, right, it's a very finite market and it's extraordinarily difficult for a fine artist to make a living. It happens almost never. So it's not surprising that the images are a very high quality.

In my opinion. That doesn't necessitate success. I mean, part of the problem of being an artist is that you have to compete with the production of all artists living and dead, and it takes a long time to build a reputation. And you have to know how to you have to know the gallery system and you have to be able to market yourself and you have to be able to sell yourself and or someone else has to do it.

It's exactly I was not ready for that. I didn't like the I didn't like this combination of words selling yourself. I knew I had to sell myself and I didn't want to do that.

So I just.

Well, you know, this is a good place for this discussion, I would say. It might be useful for people who are listening, who are artistically inclined. It's not the right thing. It's not the right way to construe it as selling yourself. What you have to understand is that there's no possible way of being successful if people don't know who you are or what you've done, because very few people buy art. And so you have to communicate with a lot of people before you get any interest that could be turned into revenue.

And so you have to communicate and obviously you have to communicate because you have to have a market. And it's just as important to know how to communicate or perhaps even more important than it is to know how to produce things that are beautiful and of value. And if you think about it as communication, it's less off-putting than if you think about it as selling yourself. It's still a tremendous problem. I mean, no matter what you produce, regardless of its value, a huge part of the problem, your face trying to monetize it is communicating its existence.

So and artists are rarely not only rarely trained in doing that, but are also frequently, somewhat temperamentally disinclined to do it. Absolutely. So so that's so that's a warning to all of you out there who are artistically inclined, if you want to make a living, especially independently, you had better be prepared to learn how to communicate with everything at your disposal and put as much effort into that, if you can, as into your art itself. That's that.

Again, that's not necessary if all you want to do is produce art. But if you want to produce art and live, it's necessary. Let electrons. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's hard won knowledge. I've produced items for sale prior to my books and I thought they were quite useful. These programs I've developed with my colleagues to help people, right, a life plan that's self authoring and to assess their personality, but. The. It wasn't until I was able to communicate with a very large number of people that those products became remotely successful despite their.

Quality, let's see. Yeah, yeah, so can I ask you, just out of curiosity and don't feel inclined to answer this, how many of your paintings have you sold?

One. How this whole gallery started, two, three, three, yeah, that was three I was commissioned to do to. And is Agora Gallery still represent you, do you have galleries that represent you, although not absolutely not. For one month only for one month only. That was the show. And people but people can contact you through your website.

Yes. Some information about me and my work.

So are the prices of your artworks on your website. Why not? I'm not saying they should be I'm I'm curious, I just think they shouldn't I think I should communicate with people first. That's part of communication. I don't have a surprise, it depends. All right, so let's talk about this contest. And so what do you tell me the story, because I don't know the story, and so I'd really like to hear it. Yeah, I don't know the story on your end.

I just know the story on my end. I have no idea why I was chosen. I never asked this question. I never wanted to know.

So they allowed the frozen because in my opinion and also the opinion of the people I had helping me make the decisions, your drawings were they were clearly the best of all the drawings that we had, all the pieces of art. They're not exactly drawings. You can describe more what they are. They were they were better than any of the others that we received. And I would say markedly so.

So that's that's the simple explanation. We felt very fortunate that the the contest had produced such a positive result. So with locked down and with my state of health, it was quite difficult to. Find another illustrator to even know how to go about that. So the contest came up as an idea and. I don't know. Not a bad idea. Well, we'll see, won't we? But I'm very pleased with the way that it's turned out so.

OK, so. So how did you remember how you found out about the contest?

I remember everything. Yes. I had a friend, Lawrence Fox. He lives in the UK. He's an actor and musician. And right now he organised the party. He's in politics now. So he sent me the link of your Twitter. It was evening and I was sitting with my husband drinking tea in the kitchen and I was sitting there like that and then and there was like that and I was ready to rip up my hair because I really wanted it.

And I told him, there is no way I can't make lined art. He said. Do you think I said no, you don't understand is Jordan Peterson. He knows exactly what he wants when he says lie and all that has to be produced in lines and they just can't do that. You have to do your thing. Just do your thing. Some people just don't know. Until they see it. So my teko was standing on those. Can you see?

Mm hmm. Yes, but a little closer. Yes, these are German drawings, and my mom bought them in Hamburg. Mm hmm. And I was looking at the sky and I was looking at the lights and I said, this is my thing. He said, do it. Go right now. So you saw the contest announcement on Twitter? Yeah. See, I don't even remember how we announced it, but obviously we use Twitter.

I kept the screenshot. I don't remember much of this at all. Yeah. And I remember why I wanted it so bad, I wanted it because I wanted to make you smile. I wanted to know why did you care about that? So first of all, did you. You knew about me? Yes, before that.

How did you know about you before that? For a long time. But I never followed you because I'm not following everybody is just a habit. So how did you know how did you come across my work, Lawrence Fox? He sent me the link on the same day and that day I was thinking, why are you so sorry?

Sorry to interrupt you, but you said that you when he sent you the link, did you already know about my work? Yes. How did you.

And so what? The very videos or had you read my previous book lectures.

No lectures. I was listening to your lectures. I see. OK, you were listening to my lectures on Art.

You you gave a lecture in Toronto Museum, I think. Yes. That's the one I love. I've listened to it three times, I think. I think that was an Ottawa. At the National Gallery and I did one at the National Gallery and I did one on the meaning of music at a museum in Toronto, but that's not the one you're referring to.

No, I wish I could find it. I need to find I need the links to the. So I went ahead, I went downstairs. And I knew I can do that in the enjoins, so what I did at the time, I would do photomontages, black and white photomontage meaning. Meaning I would make a list of keywords, something I need for that, and I knew I need this guy, I knew I knew the guy and the special character, and I just then, you know, I wanted him to be proud and.

What's the word? A slightly arrogant this was the first rule, the first do not carelessly denigrate social institutions or creative achievement, and I sent out suggestions right out.

The suggestion was a tarot card.

You sent one tarot card from the writer deck. I believe it was the writer deck.

So I would create that and then I would just start searching the web. And that could be a road that could be part of the painting I will just collect in very cold Akwei, very neurotic and chaotic for three, four hours. I'll just. Because of the stuff, everything I see, everything I see useful, everything I see fit, I would collect. Then I see a plain page that the scary and I knew that I'm going to see 12, not one usually see one, I would have to deal with 12 and I knew I can do it, but usually I'll drop myself into the well, I'll just drop myself into something impossible and see if I can survive.

That's what I do. So. I photomontage this out of pieces, just like the mosaic, that's why. That's why I spoke of making a mosaic from center out, I would find the heart of the image and I'll work towards the edges. Then I'll have to flawlessly integrate them into each other. There are probably hundreds. Yeah, there is a hundred pieces here from all sorts of sources. And why did you decide to use a photomontage rather than draw my thing?

It's my thing he told me, just do your thing that I see, that's how you see things. OK, so she'll bring the image up again. Let me let me make some comments about it and I can tell you. OK, so. I like. The melody of the main figure. There's something musical about it and about the way that. I guess it's the it's the lines of the standing figure in the dog and the butterfly, it fits harmoniously together and you've got it right to have him looking up into the sky like he's preoccupied and.

Even though he's hypothetically about to step off this clip, Cliff, the way that you produced this is similar to the way that I write because I collect all sorts of things and then I read them and then I edit them and edit the minute at them and edit them and edit them until I end, until I can't edit them anymore and then I'm done. So when I saw this. The first thing I believe I thought was that it was beautiful and that that that was.

A necessary criteria for for for my satisfaction. And it was. There's nothing about your drawings that are foolish or trivial, and so and I like the classic element. And so when I saw this, well, I was very happy. I thought, well, that'll be a beautiful addition to the.

To the book. So you sent the fool, you're speaking my language, first of all, every war toward that's exactly how I feel. I had to create Shapeways, something harmonious, perfectly harmonious. It has to be balanced out perfectly, otherwise it's junk. And that's very difficult to do, you see people often when they make a portrait, even very talented people can't erase the multiple. If there's multiple figures, they can't erase the multiple figures together so that they look either like they're dancing, let's say, like they're related to each other properly.

They look like separate figures, sort of stuck on a page. And certainly that isn't the case with your illustration of the fool and.

Often people would ask me who am inspired by. No one. They would not believe me, it's definitely look like that would definitely look like a work. It's definitely look like this guy and the guys definitely look like my brother. It's not all those things. I never get inspired by visuals. I get inspired by music. Uh huh. So here we come, a full circle, because I always knew that I have to choose either music or drawing two things.

And I knew I have to choose because. When you're your little grown ups would say. Would you want to be when you grow up, which implies you have to choose and I do want to choose. But it's so interesting that you think of your drawings musically, given that that's how they struck me and that's how they structured the world to work.

So what I do is I put my music and they work only to music. Nothing else. I have no ideas and I'm trying to turn my head off. I'm not thinking during this chaotic speaking, I have to analyze, like, good, bad, bad, bad. Right, right. But then when it's all done, it's pretty much like. What actors do master actors with method acting? They just collected all this information, you know, everything about they dressed up and they just being and I can't control this when I attach those things, I'm just I'm just that's all I can think.

Once I started thinking I'm doing the right.

Well, yeah. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Thinking is perhaps reserved for critical judgment rather than creative production.

Yeah. You have to open yourself up to a kind of attention. And it's interesting that you say you you collected a very large number of items to work with its initial overproduction, followed by a selection. And that's another thing useful for people who are listening to this or watching it might want to know when I write, I write way more than I keep. And then I can select and so I don't constrain myself to begin with, I can write down whatever I want knowing full well that I'm going to modify it or throw much of it away.

So I sent like I had images in mind, photographs, paintings that captured the theme of what I wanted to portray in the illustration for the chapter. And so as we progress through the 12, I had sent an image or two or three perhaps I don't exactly remember that sort of hinted at what I was looking for. And so then you worked off that initial suggestion, but you produced something that was in that vein, but not by any means the same thing.

Mm hmm. So let's go through let's go let's show everybody the illustrations one by one and talk about each of them. So we saw number one, the fool.

Yeah, I had much more. Obviously, I had much more. I had mountains. I had extra stuff. And I always minimize it. Not necessarily out, not necessarily simplify, but completely. Then I went to number five.

Rule five that do not do what you hate, and so that's Lucifer plummeting. From heaven. Yeah, that's the one. And tell me about that. That's my favorite little. That's your favorite rule, is that you mean the favorite illustration or the rule itself? Now, you hadn't read the chapters. I don't believe I did. You did OK. OK, so I sent them to you. Yes. Well, that was wise. That was appropriate.

Yeah.

That was why I asked for it. But then I stop myself from reading on most of them. I didn't want. I didn't want. To translate them into words and vice versa. OK, so but you had read the Chapter four, rule five. Yeah. You gave me a very clear three paragraphs on each rule and there was more than enough. And you showed pictures. I have a you know, we cannot touch.

And we went back and forth on this image quite a lot on this one. No, the only change here was. That the hand was too long, right arm length. Well, that happens to stick in my mind. So that may not be an accurate representation of what happened. So tell me about this image again, it has that lovely harmony, you know, the character looks like he's the figure looks like he's dancing. It's beautiful.

Yeah. So I was inspired by a ballet dancer. And. I didn't want it to look so much like this because this is similar in. In description, right, want him to be all the way down on the ground? I wanted him to be in the middle and was very challenging, very challenging, because the emotion is so contradictory to me. And I was trying to catch it in one frame and the emotion was still falling. He's not there yet.

It's quite interesting.

He's desperate and angry and hopeful. It's a great expression. And he's looking for help. Yeah, well, I believe you can see all of those things in the expression there's a pleading in it. Yeah, so once I get the face, I would change the face of a person, obviously. Uh, unrecognisably for others and I'll work on a nose, obviously, and I'll work on the eyes. And then I'll change the or I'll actually work on.

On the flaps of the skin. So make him more desperate, the darker the area on top of his eye, the more desperate he is. There are ways to work on a motion to change it slightly, and I'm changing it only on one half of the face. That's my trick. The other half of the face will describe a different emotion. Hmm. And so how did you discover that technique? OK. Actually, there is a filmmaker, first filmmaker.

His name is George Miller. Yes, he was French, the one who created Mawn. What was the name? I have to write it down. He created. What's his name, the trip to the moon? Oh, yes, very early filmmaker. He was the first and the first very famous film. Yeah. So he has been depicted in Hugo Cabret by Martin Scorsese, a film. Right. So there I saw how he created the magic.

He wanted some ammend disappear so he would take the cancer of the film, take the actual film and get to that. Point cut out a few frames where the person disappears and glued together. So and then I noticed the same idea in music, when I'm listening, let's say this thing, he will do exactly the same thing. He will take the emotion. That comes to the point of. I forgot what the musical term he would cut the other half.

He'll take a different emotion, cut of the beginning, glued them together, and that creates a completely different emotion in music. Nobody's using it unless you're a genius. And why? The reason is because the church would forbid it in the very early stages, because those chords would create doubt. Doubt and uncertainty. So those chords sound beautiful and slightly bitter and sophisticated. You'll never hear the music, especially classical music. So I've started to think, how can I recreated visually the same thing?

So you showed rule 11, so let's jump to that one, unless you have a preference. I love know. That's do not allow yourself to become resentful, deceitful or arrogant, and that's Satan in hell, and that's modeled after an illustration from Paradise Lost by Gustav Dora, if I remember correctly. So why don't you tell us about that illustration? Again, there is not much to tell. I was trying to recreate one of those. And I was trying to be simplistic about it, obviously showing a big distress devastation.

That's how I showed devastation. Yes, and that's devastation wrought by becoming resentful, deceitful and arrogant. So and the point of the chapter, at least in part, is that even if you have reasons for all of those three things, especially resentment, because people often have extraordinarily difficult lives. Going down that path is likely to make everything worse, and that's a non-trivial problem because if you're suffering dreadfully, then it's very difficult to resist the temptation of resentment.

So it's something I've certainly struggled with that rule in Rule 12 to be grateful in spite of your suffering. It was a rules that I've had a very hard time abiding by the law. What's that?

That's took me the longest this. I've created three or four different versions. And I worked and worked and worked. And I was not satisfied. This, this. Yeah. All right, let's go to let's go to rule. Do you have an order you prefer? Sure. We go to rule to the rule to. All to have done the last, but the best for last. Imagine who you could be in the name Singlemindedly at that that was a tricky one to have you do, because the chapter is an analysis of an old alchemical drawing.

And so you had to be constrained in in the recreation of that because it had to duplicate all the elements of the original drawing or my chapter wouldn't have made any sense. So. Which made it easier for me being constrained is easy. I know exactly what's supposed to be the. Yes, well, people with an artistic temperament or maybe people with a wannabe artistic temperament often rail against constraint, but. It's you want a lot of constraint, generally speaking, otherwise you drown in choice and that's that's a big problem.

So this chapter describes this picture as a story that proceeds from the bottom up. You can take it in at a glance, but it also proceeds from the bottom up. And it's the emergence of personality, well developed personality from from nothing in some sense or from potential. That's another way of thinking about it. And it's an unbelievably sophisticated image, and which is why it takes me a chapter to unwrap some of it. So. What what what did you what was the experience for you of working on this image?

I figured I was looking for one of the paintings to make inverted as opposed to as opposed to black figures on white background, which is usually the case. I've done it inverted and I loved it. I love called black as opposed to every original I saw on the Internet. That makes it very magical. There are drag dragon there, so the way the picture works, just as a hint, is that, well, the bottom sphere in some sense represents that which attracts your interest and.

Then that can transform itself into that which you're afraid of, so you might have an ambition, for example, to pursue something you're interested in, but then that turns into a dragon because you're afraid of pursuing it. But if you do confront it, then that turns into you that that helps you develop your personality. That's that's that image in a thumbnail.

It's not much more to it than that, of course. I love it. Rule for. Oh, that's real sorry, that was rule two, yes, imagine who you could be and then single mindedly at that. This is real. Three is the one we need.

All three is Mikaela's favorite.

Do not hide unwanted things in the fog. Right. And this is the opposite of hiding unwanted things in the fog. This is confronting them. And that's a variant of St George and the Dragon, which is an unbelievably pervasive mythological and artistic motif, and perhaps also the oldest story that we have. The all the stories that we know are variants of King George and or St. George and the Dragon. So tell me about this one. That was difficult because there were so many items to.

That shouldn't look separated, although the woman should be separated. So what I have done is using a fabric fabric of hers and fabric of his flying into the same direction, and that's the connecting point, Cassell should be separated. So I wasn't worried about the castle, but the dark sky and the dragon work in. Sure. Five degrees here, right, absolutely. To the mass of the dragon and the mass of the sky are balanced against the against the rider and that gives it a symmetry across the from the top left corner to the bottom right corner to draw a line there.

It's symmetrical across that axis. And the castle had to be there and the dragon had to be there and the woman had to be there. All those elements are crucial. And so this is what you do when you don't hide things in the fog. You confront them and you free something of value as a consequence. That's that's a that's the most one of the most magnificent discoveries of human beings that human beings have ever made. And images like this are an attempt to make that conscious, to serve to to they're they're they're they're a guide to a particular kind of action in the world.

That's the voluntary confrontation with things you don't understand and that you are afraid of and the promise that something of extreme value will emerge as a consequence of that, even though it looks dire initially and can be. I mean, this is no joke, because if you go off to fight dragons, there's always the possibility that you'll die or worse. And that's a real possibility. It's it's not something that can be hand waved away with any amount of psychological.

Nonsense, let's say. These are real battles, not merely psychological battles rule for please stop me too.

If there's anything else you want to say about any of these images, I really want to hear what you have to say. Rule for notice that opportunity lurks where responsibility has been abdicated. Atlus. And there's three women in the background, why? That was part of your suggestion, so I have to say why you have to see what. Well, I would say that to the degree that men are properly shouldering their load, then women can rejoice and play in the background, which is not to say that all women do is rejoice and play.

No one lives like that, but it's very difficult to rejoice and play. When? Responsibility remains on shouldered. So. And it is the case that each of us lift the world up onto our shoulders in one way or another or fail to do so. It's a terrible burden, but it's a meaningful one. Rule five didn't rule five. Sorry, go ahead. I've made it surgical, if you see on top. It's like a part of the scene that makes sense more.

Yeah, this is part of the scene because you can see the fabric right here, like and they dancing on the background. Those who would like a stage setting, something like that. That was my idea. Mm hmm. Yeah, well, what we play out on the stage are representations of things that we should play out in our life, or sometimes they're opposite because, you know, if you see a villain on the stage and he ends badly, then the lesson is to not be a villain.

But that's a still imitation. It's just imitation in the of the reverse rule six, because we did rule five, abandoned ideology, abandon ideology. And that's says that's your version of a Soviet era propaganda poster. Now, you must have seen many of those when you were in Riga. No, I haven't seen any of those because I was born in nineteen seventy seven.

My mistake. So tell us about this image. Not much to tell.

I wanted her to look me through Bechler, just like the women I saw in Riga, 1977. The women looked like this Russian woman. Why? Why there will be the. I guess we're thinking that it was something to do with ideology and its terrible grip, the terrible grip that ideology had on. Well, certainly the people in the Soviet Union, but also in the entire world. Unbelievably catastrophic. A whole century of catastrophe, of terrible catastrophe for hundreds of millions of people.

And we still haven't learned our lesson. And people can object that you can't help but think ideologically, and I don't believe that to be the case.

No, I'm the product of that. And I can tell you that for me, it's a given that things can change within one night. It's a given because it's happened. People in America cannot imagine such a thing because things gradually went better and they're slightly better, maybe a bit worse, but better and better imagined because they never lived it and things were taken away. One night, everything changed. Well, people got a bit of a taste of that this year, I would say even so, and hopefully it won't go beyond the taste that we've had.

So I guess you you follow an ideology when you. You have the overweening desire to explain more of the world than you can explain, it's very complicated. Your representation of the world becomes something you proudly display to indicate your moral superiority, and you'll sacrifice people to that. Rule seven work as hard as you possibly can on at least one thing and see what happens. I love this is beautiful. It's so playful. It's got the it's got this feeling of a of a child's fairy tale, but one that's not speaking down to children.

And there's real love in it and. It's very frequently the case that mentoring relationships, apprenticeship relationships have that love in the. This shoemaker is teaching this young boy to a craft that will enable him to do something productive, but also enable him to live to to provide him with a living. And he's he's the good father, like Japan. So he's obviously pleased that his apprentice is showing mastery. And that's the definition of a good father, perhaps a good parent that you're pleased when your son or your daughter.

Advances even when they advance beyond you, which hopefully they will if you're highly successful, there's a lot of love in this illustration as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, have tried to appeal to you, if you look at the old guy, his young character.

Oh, I can't believe you haven't noticed. The list of things that I haven't noticed would fill many, many books. That's so smart. That's so smart, the lovely character, this guy. And the room that you've you've portrayed there is it's a place of productive activity, it's it's inviting and you did you made it theatrical again with the with the with the fabric along the top. And so it's like we're looking into a private moment. Exactly. The fact that it's theatrical.

So tell me. So this is this you've done this with a number of images. What possessed you to do that? My experience, my own experience, I suppose I've had that with my grandmother. Why make it? Why make it by making it theatrical. Yes, and so, so overtly. It's it's perfectly appropriate, especially given that the tenor of the book, I'm not sure. Again, I'm not sure about most of my decisions. I wouldn't.

Yes, well, that's the problem with if artists can say what they do, they wouldn't need to do their art. I suppose so that I don't know that's left to other people often, and some of the worst claptrap ever produced is analysis of art, often by the artists themselves, but often by critics as well. Well, you open up the curtains on a scene. And to open up the curtains on the scene is to indicate that this scene is of importance because otherwise why put it on the stage?

Why open the curtains? Why say that this is here for your for your consideration? And so you're displaying to the viewer something of crucial importance here is that this relationship exists and it's it's healthy and positive and something to be. And it's very. Yes.

And it's intimate as well. Yes, exactly. Yes, lovely, a beautiful flavor. Yes, and you managed to imbue this illustration with sentiment without it being maudlin or naive or or saccharine or sugarcoated any of that. And that's a very tricky thing to do, to make something positive and joyful and loving like that without it degenerating into sentimentality. With the boy, I was struggling because many boys have increased emotions, they're very emotional, and I needed to show a sense of awe.

But every boy I tried, I probably tried 20. Didn't work until I found this picture of my son 10 years ago. He was making bubbles so bubbles in the original picture and he looked at them without. Uh. Overall, expressing his joy and moment, I like it's something in between. Right, so he's contemplating yes, happily is not sure if it's good or not, but the father approves. Great rule eight eight Sirius's. Try to make one room in your house, in your home, as beautiful as possible.

I tried that multiple times, and it's been it was extraordinarily useful to try to make a room beautiful or more than one room. It's such a good. Exercise to learn to cultivate a relationship with beauty, it's in a world where so much is ugly as beauty is is sustaining as bred, perhaps even more so and so. This is a. A testament, let's say, to Vincent Van Gogh's irises, which at one point was a painting that sold for more than any other painting had ever sold for one hundred and seventy odd million dollars, if I remember correctly.

I'm sure that record has been broken since then, but it's of great interest to know that the most expensive artifacts in the world are. Artistic artifacts and in principle, those that speak remind us of beauty and the chapter. Rule seven, rule eight, try to make one room in your home, as beautiful as possible is a meditation on the ability of art to remind us of what we've forgotten. So tell me about the choices you made in this image.

Oh. So the original irises, the job is very tiny and very much looks like his face with an ear. The original joke. And I couldn't use that, so I need a different jug and I needed it to be. Auroral. Nothing more I needed and the war, the place and I needed more than that, I was looking at those and I was not sure this is irises by Vango. Until I found a way to make it his with the portrait on the background, that is clear.

And also, it's slightly off center. And slightly looks like a mistake. But things for for his face, it's perfectly harmonious within the page. You see that? It's slightly off, but it's not. So that's part of what makes the a piece of visual art work is. The the relationship between the images and their hypothetical mass, it's something like that they have to be balanced properly on the page.

Absolutely. So you pick. So you talked about the rural rural nature of the jug and the plain wood table that it's sitting on. That's to not take away from the flowers. Well, every artist directs the attention of his or her viewer. Now the attention is on Iris's. So you make decisions often. This is one of the reasons I believe that he can draw an animated art is preferable to computer generated animated art often. Computer animation allows animators to render.

Their images with incredible complexity and detail, but it's easy for the viewer to get lost as a consequence, whereas a movie like Sleeping Beauty, you know exactly where to look because everything that isn't relevant is faded out to some degree in that which is relevant is high resolution. And so the artist is helping the viewer view the image by making decisions about what is highlighted and what isn't. And that's part of how the artist allows the image to tell a story, because the artist can guide the attention of the viewer by making careful choices about what's foreground and what's background.

Yeah, and that reminds me of my thinking that nowadays, graphics, auto shop, the two chordoma properly, all you have to do is swallow. It's just there for you completely. Everything is in focus. Everything, every single detail, it's very saturated. There is no mystery. And it's not how my eyes see, maybe it's the poor vision, maybe, no, it's not how anybody's eyes sees, it's not how I see it and I need it to be realistic.

I mean, the way we see is when we look at something straight on what we're directly looking at, it is in high resolution. But as we move beyond the center of our vision to the periphery, everything becomes much less high resolution. And that's because, well, we have limited visual computational resources. But we we we view what's most important in high detail and late everything else. Goal, and that is obvious. Absolutely no offense, but if you look at every single one of them, they are not in focus, they not perfectly sharp.

And that's on purpose and what do you think that does? It gives them a dreamlike quality, that's one thing I noticed, but then it reminds us what we saw like 30, 40 years ago and forgot. How beautiful it was. Rule nine. If old memories still upset, you write them down carefully and completely. This, I believe, was Saint Anthony, there's a number of famous representations of St. Anthony being tormented by demons. We're all tormented by the demons of our imagination, regret's fears paranoias.

Perhaps other people in our representations. And he's peaceful in this image despite. This torment. I thought this was an extremely effective image. Jordan, look at the eyes. Doesn't it remind you of anybody? Who is it that's you? I have noticed many times in your lectures, in your interviews, you're looking for answers. I look up and look up exactly like that, maybe not a sermon, but you always look up on the angle, not straight, slightly on the angle.

And they might say that tormented. So I just wanted to be relatable. Well, I guess. You need to look up to find. What it is that makes the torment worthwhile. And you're fortunate if you find that. Rule 10. That was the one where we have to. Make some construction work on his feet, plan and work diligently to maintain the romance in your relationship. Yes, and you're very fortunate if you can do that. That's for sure.

Another dance. And this was do you remember the image I sent you? Do you remember the artist? Was it. I can't remember, unfortunately, an. The kiss. Yeah, I can check it out right now. Was it also Gustav? It was inspired by Oldbury, Worthley, Aubrey, Bursley Beardslee. Yes, that was my only reference. Just one picture. So. The fact when you see a couple moving harmoniously together and they seem to belong together, the reason they seem to belong together is because they're mimicking each other in their posture.

And that doesn't mean that they're necessarily doing exactly the same thing, but. The manner in which one person holds their body is related to the manner in which the other person is holding their body and you see this with mothers and children. So if you if you take videos of. Mothers who are in a good mental state with their infants and you speed them up. Videoing the mother and the infant, you see that they're engaged in a continual dance of reaction and response, but if you do that with depressed mothers, then you don't get the same rhythm and harmony in the interactions.

And that's because the relationship is disrupted by the depression. So in this representation, these two are very harmoniously linked together and they've they're maintaining the romance in their relationship and the chapter is a discussion of the multitude of. Problems that have to be solved in a relationship for that romance to be maintained across time. It's as if romance, if you think about it, you might think about it as a form of play and play is very easily disrupted among children if children are in any.

Powerful emotional state that will interfere with their play, all their needs in some sense have to be taken care of before they before play will emerge. And there's some that also seems to be the case to some large degree. With regard to the relationship between men and women or between two intimate partners. There's many things that have to be solved properly for the romance to be maintained across time. And rule 12. Be grateful in spite of your suffering. Another St.

. Images that have become much rarer. In the modern world. So tell me about this image. Well, again, not overly expressive at peaceful. He looks like he's part of the tree. Again, not everything in focus again. It's treeing. That doesn't exactly look like a tree and you can't see the bottom of the tree. Which also happens in the real life, you don't see every single branch of the tree when you're looking on the.

And so why did I did I hadn't noticed that before. Do you know why you decided to make the bottom of the tree obscured? It wasn't a conscious decision. Well, so then what it looks like is that. His legs now become the trunk of the tree. Oh, I see that. And they they mirror the branches, the major branches in the tree. So you're you're indicating that's a really good example of how the visual imagination can supersede the conscious knowledge.

Of course, you don't know why you made all the decisions you made in these images. How in the world could you possibly know? And the image should contain way more than you think. I mean, if you diligently worked at it and, you know, if you had planned a drawing that said, well, I'm going to give a man the strength of a tree, it's doubtful that you could have consciously come up with a solution that would be better than the one that you picked as a consequence of your aesthetic judgment.

Yes. So he's rooted powerfully. I mean, what you have there is that what's rooted powerfully in the earth is his feet and his legs and.

You've indicated that that's a more powerful rooting. A more significant ruling than the ruling of the tree itself. There's a bird in the background. You'll notice. And that made you laugh? Have you noticed why, because that was intentional. Is freedom. All right, so I'm going to close this up, but I have but I want to ask you something else, too, which is, I suppose, the question I wanted answered more than any other question that I could put to you.

What has been the consequence for you of having undertaken this job? What's happened, I mean, partly as a consequence of making the images, but you've had some attention directed your way now because of the book and there's going to be a lot more coming because of this video and because the book will be out March 2nd. What what's changed for you? Nothing yet, nothing changed. I don't know what's going to come, maybe you do. No, I don't.

I have no idea if and what, but I've accomplished what I want. And what I want to do is to make you smile during the period of difficulty. And Michela tipped me off. She would tell me that, said, oh, my God. And that would make my day.

Well, I appreciate that very much. And I, I. I'm very happy to have the Australians in my book. There surreal, I think there are very there are great additions to the book, have you and there there are not yet next week I know I have preprint, so I have the PDF since I. I haven't seen how the images look in the final production yet. I like the images in my first book. These are nicely different.

I they're, they're more romantic, they're more fairy tale like they're more elusive in some sense. I hope people like them a lot, I suspect that they will, and I hope that. The kind of attention that you want comes your way kind of attention that you that would be best for you comes your way as a consequence of doing this. Thank you. Thank you very much for all your work. Absolutely welcome. You helped us solve a very difficult problem at a very difficult time.

That was my intention, nothing else. Well, it's lovely to meet you. I hope we get to do it in person. We will and maybe we'll talk again publicly some months after the book is released and we can discuss the consequences, then that would be nice.

Is there anything else that you would like to say? Just that I'm very happy to meet you. Nothing else. I'm just very happy to see you talking to me of the screen. Well, it was good to get to know you. Thank you very much. And we'll make this enter into an interesting visual display as well as an interesting conversation. All right. Thank you very much.