It doesn't matter if you're hunting, trapping camp and heading out in the woods, great of pull on rubber boots is kind of a must have. I use them all the time. Lacrosse is arrowhead. Sports are a great option for those of you looking for durability and versatility. They've got all the perks of an old school rubber boot, but feature innovative new materials for comfort and strength. The Arrowhead Sport features a combination of seven millimeter neoprene and lacrosse polyurethane aero form shell, which provides a combined 1000 gram equivalent of insulation.

Polyurethane is the same material used to insulate refrigerators, freezers, coolers. It works great to keep the warmth in and the material itself doesn't get cold like rubber can. Neoprene is 100 percent waterproof and features lacrosse brush tough material for added abrasion resistance. The crossbeam making boots for over a century. Check them out and get your own lacrosse footwear. Dotcom Arrowhead Sport. That's lacrosse footwear. Dotcom slash a EROI HVAD dash sport. All right, we're in it fall hunting season, and if you're about to start your fall hunting season as a bow hunter, make sure you have your hunting license.

The money raised some hunting license sales helped state agencies maintain and improve wildlife habitat and trails, make public lands available for new projects and preserves our heritage for the future while allowing you to right to hunt and harvest wild game. Help preserve the great outdoors by purchasing your hunting license today. Visit the Meat Eater Dotcom Tagg's to learn more about license's in your state. That's the meat eater dotcom tags for more information.

This is the Meat Eater podcast coming at you, shirtless, severely beaten, in my case, underwear.

Listen to our podcast. You can't predict anything presented by Onex Hunt, creators of the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the Hunt app from the iTunes or Google Play store. Know where you stand with Onex. OK, we're here with Dr. Paul Salaheddine on the first day, I get that right. You got a man.

Why why are we tell people what we're having in pill form right now? So my my hope was that I would get everybody a little bit buzzed on liver pills before we got started on this podcast.

So these are desiccated organs.

The first sampling. It's like a tasting.

Like you go to a wine bar or a beer house, you get a sampling, a tasting. So I brought two different vintages. Today, we've got the bone marrow and liver pills. Steve is over here sniffing them, smelling mine, eating them.

I have 12 to eat. Yes, 12 to eat.

So the first vintage is bone marrow and liver from grass fed grass, finished cattle raised in New Zealand on regenerative farms. And the second vintage is beef organs, which consists of heart, liver, kidneys, spleen and pancreas from similarly raised cattle in New Zealand. And these are super interesting for me because.

A lot of people don't understand how valuable organs are.

I think it's a hunter, you guys probably get this or do you think about the way that indigenous people and hunter gatherers have eaten animals throughout antiquity, nose to tail?

They the whole animal. Right. Nothing is wasted. And a lot of the organs are sacred. They're regarded as sacred. This new air tribe in Africa, they're super tall. Even the women are like above six feet. They think of liver as too sacred to be touched by human hands. But it's just regarde. They've realized over generations that if they feed the organs specifically things like liver and spleen and pancreas and heart, they're warriors get strong. The young people are fertile.

They have healthy babies. It's just by trial and error. They've realized, hey, there are unique nutrients in these organs.

And what's so interesting for me about this is the way that we become optimally healthy humans and how much of this we're missing in our diet. So I'm a doctor. I think about nutrition. I think about nutritional adequacy, vitamins, minerals, where we get them.

And one of the most striking things that I've encountered in writing this book, The Carnivore Code, we'll talk about it today is that a lot of the nutrients that you find when you're eating animal meat and organs are pretty difficult to find elsewhere in our diets, which really speaks to this evolutionary program as evolutionary blueprint that humans have to eat animals in in their entirety throughout our whole existence.

And so one of the passion projects that I developed was this company called Heart and Soil to make these desiccated organ supplements for people who can't access the organs or who don't want to eat the organs. Because if you've ever seen a pancreas, it looks like a little alien. I mean, you can eat it, but a lot of people won't do it. But I still want to be able to get people.

That's good nutrition. It's like my sister's kids, niece and nephew and my parents, my grandparents, they probably I can eat a pancreas or a spleen, but they'll take these pills.

And so everybody in this room is now getting a little bit buzzed on the unique nutrients found in these two rare vintages that I brought when I was when I was a little boy.

And you got into an argument about vegetarianism, you'd be like, you can't be a vegetarian because you won't get be 12. Right. Or vegan or whatever.

Yeah, but then I read that you get enough V12 off insect contamination in your produce, so like what not.

But what is it that you need. I got a thousand questions, so no, no, no. Hold that question, OK, because I want you to tell you about his special pills, all right.

Oh, you want me to tell you about how I think it was our first born?

We took the center of it and had it turned basically into a pill. Did you eat it? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. But that was like witchcraft and hate the pills. I didn't I didn't eat the raw. It was kind of like witchcraft is more than like health. Right. Like it was like spiritual, metaphysical, it wasn't like good for your health. Well, I think it's kind of no, no, I think it was the latter. Always meant to be good for your health. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There is more like metaphysical in nature.

I think it's kind of both.

I think that a lot of the stories around the organs came from observed health benefits. People think, oh, eat the heart. It makes me strong. And that's interesting because there's extra coenzyme Q10 and heart. So I think the question you were going to ask was what are the unique nutrients and animal foods or what are the.

Yeah. What do you know about be 12? Right. Everybody knows that one.

Right. But the list is really, really long. This is so fascinating. So one of the interesting ideas that I've come across in this this sort of this realm of carnivore and animal based diets is that if you look at plants and you look at what we can get nutritionally from plants, there are no nutrients in plants. And this is going to sound crazy. But it's true. There are no nutrients and plants that we cannot get from animals if we eat them nose to tail.

Meaning if we don't.

Yeah, yeah. But the reverse is not true.

There are so many unique nutrients and animal foods eaten nose to tail that you cannot get from plants and V12, which is a molecule called Kobol. Lemon is just one of them. And it's really a myth that you can get enough V12 to have adequate methylation and all these other physiologic processes you need in your body from just animals on your produce. That doesn't happen. You really should eat animal foods. But the list is very long.

You got sort of creative GooYa, some of what it is creatine is.

So it's a molecule that your body makes, but it only makes a small amount and you get creatine and muscle, meat and liver and things like this. And then carnitine, COLENE carnitine, answering taurine. I can talk about any of these vitamin K to the list is long.

There's probably about nine to ten unique nutrients, just that we know about that we need to be optimal humans. And there's medical studies on all of them showing this has this benefit, this has this benefit, and we only get them from eating animal organs and meat.

So a question that I'll ask people is, and this is just a question that a doctor would ask somebody, because it's a nerdy question, where do you get your riboflavin Manolo's?

I think it's the special K, don't they advertise?

Yeah, I was going to say some breakfast cereal, some there's a breakfast cereal company that's sort of introduced Americans to the idea of riboflavin. So I don't know what it is, but I accept that I need it. Right. Well, you definitely need it.

Riboflavin is vitamin B, and if you would get it in a synthetic form, it's two different molecules.

This is gets a little a little complex.

I want to get, too, in the weeds here. But there are a lot of the molecules, a lot of these vitamins have like mirror images when we synthesize them. But in nature, they only exist as one form and kind of look, they're called enantiomer or these mirror images that look like your hands. You know, they're not the same image, but they're they're a mirror image. But you can't overlay them. Right. So there's a they have what's called chirality.

They're enantiomer as and when you synthesize vitamins like riboflavin in the lab, you get both an A. But in the natural world, only one of them is occurring. So the riboflavin you get in liver, liver and heart are the main place that humans have gotten riboflavin throughout our evolution. And it's a nutrient that's critical for humans to do a process called methylation, for our biochemistry to work right, for us to make sex hormones and neurotransmitters and to have energy metabolism basically to feel as good as possible and experience life as richly as we can.

We need these little micronutrients.

And when you get the riboflavin made in the lab from Special K, this other mirror image can block what the actual biological molecule is supposed to do. So the takeaway here is that the real form of the vitamin, quote unquote, real form that occurs in natural food is always better. It's a concept. It's not too far from our intuition, but it's been, you know, corroborated by science. So, yeah, you can get a little riboflavin or a little bit of folate from your special K, but the versions you find in real food, especially animal foods, are much more utilized and easily utilized and help us become better individuals.

I mean, that's what's so fascinating to me as a doctor. How do we kick the most asses humans? How do we enjoy this life, these short 85 years that we get on this planet, if you're lucky, right?

If you're lucky. Yeah. Sarducci new guy there day and his his. Dad also died at 72, and we got look here, I'm at the point where I don't like hearing that kind of stuff. How old are your parents? Well, my mom my dad died 80, my mom's age, you know.

OK, so your parents have gotten I mean, your dad lived 80 years. Your mom's lived a good life. My parents are both 70.

And it's thinking you start to think about mortality when your parents get close to that, that age. And I told you I was walking on a graveyard here in Bozeman, Montana, last night. That's what I do when I come to new towns. Not all the time, but I like thinking about that stuff.

And we were looking at gravesites for people from 1890 and, you know, even 1986. And you think what happened? What was her life back then like?

And mortality is clarifying, but well, they sat around talking about how this place got too crowded, which, you know, since 1986. And, you know, you think, wow, what was it like?

But it also reminds you I'm going to die one day. And I think it's a doctor who started out as somebody that just like to be outside.

I'm kind of straddling both worlds. I want to live as well as I can. And that's why I went to medical school, was that I enjoyed doing things outside. I enjoyed hiking the Pacific Crest Trail. I through hiked it when I was 21 years old. And I've been, you know, like a casual mountaineer for a long time. I love backcountry skiing. And I thought, man, this is a beautiful life.

I love being outdoors. How do I do this? For as long as possible. I want to serve and ski and climb mountains for as long as possible. And that's why I think human health is fascinating. And I think that if we can understand how humans are really programmed to eat, we get to do those things longer. You guys get to go on expeditions longer and hunt animals in a beautiful way and you just get to have more fun in life when you get your riboflavin.

Yeah, I remember reading about. Hide hunters like commercial hunters on the Texas plains.

And how there's a reference to how they would just eat like the finer cuts on animals and they would get nutrient deficiencies and they had to learn, they had learned he had eat all the stuff.

Exactly. Had to eat the organs and they would like put bile. They would put bile on meat and do all these things, just eat as much stuff as they could.

And they found that they would get better health. And if they were just eating like maybe just eating backstrap. Exactly.

That's happened. Tongue. Yeah, yeah. And that happens today too.

I mean, we see that over and over and within the Carnivore animal based community. You see that I work with people who just eat the muscle meat because that's all we're really used to today in 2020.

And they get folate deficiency and you get all kinds of things that don't really go that well.

But if you eat nose to tail, you feel really good, which is why a lot of times when people do things like the desiccated liver supplements or eat fresh liver, they get a little buzz. So any minute now, the buzz is going to be kicking in for you guys.

We eat a lot of heart, liver, so you guys are probably pretty good or tuned in. You're tuned in.

But this is I think that what's so interesting is these trapper's these hunters didn't understand what the Native Americans did. Right, because the Native Americans knew that they ate these animal, these animal organs.

They ate the animal fat, they ate the kidney fat, which we call the sweat, the Africa fat. They ate the gallbladder.

There's all these stories of kids and, you know, indigenous cultures using the gall bladder like salt because it's salty and they'll support the bile on meat and stuff. And there's valuable nutrients throughout it, but it makes all of us kind of go eat. It's gross.

And so I really think that a lot of the illness that we suffer today is humans. A lot of the chronic disease, a lot of that non optimal living that we do is because of these nutrient deficiencies.

And so that's why it's cool to get to do this work, because it's so awesome to get an email back from somebody who's who says things like, I have so much more energy, my libido is better, I lost weight, I can sleep now or my autoimmune disease went away when they make dietary changes, the first of which is probably including these organs in their diet. And we can talk about other dietary changes you might make to get that way.

But that's what's really cool and it's this sort of ancestral wisdom that's been lost.

I got to my first question. Before we get to details, I want to I want to talk about your diet, too. Here's my first question is there's a criticism of American society today that we don't agree on. That we no longer agree on the objective realities, right, that there's two versions of truth. Or multiple versions of truth when I think that we have this nostalgic attitude that once upon a time there was only like one version of truth and I wonder, is it infiltrated diet?

Like, I don't remember when I was a little kid. I don't remember there being like two versions of what healthy what was healthy. I think everybody knew, like the food pyramid. And there's sort of like, I get it, I'm not going to do it, but I accept that. That's correct.

But we've now entered into a spot where you can have a version of reality being that meat's really bad for you and it's healthy to be a vegetarian because meat kills you. And that's by some people accepted like. Well, that no, that's that's objectively true. That's categorically true.

You might choose to eat meat because you don't have self-control or you're a glutton or whatever, but we all know that. That's right. And then you can have another group of people being like, oh, no, no, no, no fat and meat. It's an objective reality that it's good for.

You might not do that because you have a sugar addiction or you have a problem with animal ethics. But we all know that this is actually true. Like how do people pick, like, who's right? There's only one of. I know. So so right. There's one, but it's one whose is the one.

That's why I do what I do, man. That's why I do what I do. I think that truth is truth is what we're after. And I really love that you bring this up because I think this is a little bit of an insidious notion that there are multiple versions of truth.

There's only one version of truth.

And either what I'm saying is right or at the plant based people are saying is right. And that's why I do what I do, because I believe with every fiber of my being that humans have been eating meat throughout our entire evolution, we can get into this and that it's essential for human health.

And in the book, in the Carnivore code, I break down. Why have we been told that meat is not bad, not good for us, right?

No, no. I tell you why it's not good for you. Oh, well, I'll get it.

What else to do to Elvis Presley died and they found a giant burger and is calling like you can't digest it. I don't know. But I always feel like why do I feel.

I always wonder why I feel so good when you eat something that's so bad for you. I like. I like. I don't even know that I'm dying. I feel like I'm great. You feel amazing.

You know, I hear that all the time from people who email me at heart and soil because, you know, you can email me there if you have questions. People say, I feel so good when I eat liver. I get high, I get a little buzz. I feel these nutrients. And I conversely, there's a little bit there's a little bit of selection bias here in terms of who emails me with these stories.

People email me and say, hey, doc, my my doctor recommended that I go on a plant based diet because X, Y, Z and I just feel like garbage.

My energy is down. I don't feel good. I'm gaining weight. And I go, yeah, it's because you're eating the junk, you're eating survival food.

So that's why I do what I do is because I feel like there are objective truths that need to be understood. And so probably for the rest of my life, this will be my life's work is helping people of all walks of life, of all vocations, understand the science that I've seen.

And I'll be debating vegans and plant based people forever, forever, trying to help people understand that what they're saying, in my opinion, is so badly mistaken.

And the reason you're misled, I suppose you understand this, but the reason a lot of people are misled is because of epidemiology and we can get into what that is and why the science is not all the same.

But there's it's not being told to us accurately.

We're being told things that are based on studies that are observational. They're not actually interventional real science.

And it's very hard for someone that's not a medical doctor or a medical researcher to understand that.

So we are being misled.

And what's cool is that I think that people will eventually realize what you realized. If you eat animal meat and organs from well raised animals, you are going to thrive. You're going to feel good. Your kids are going to be healthy. You're going to be fertile. You're going to have a healthy baby. Your depression might get better. I've seen autoimmune disease get better. You're going to go wait a minute.

There's so much cognitive dissonance here. How can this be bad for me?

And I want to be the voice or one of the voices who says it's not bad for you. And that spark comes on in your brain and you go, of course, it's not bad for me. I'm being misled. This is bad information. I don't necessarily believe that there are evil people out there or that they're trying to do harm. I just think that people are not they're not thinking about it properly in the plant based world.

Where did it come from? Like, I don't even know what year it was or approximately the Olssen that because I grew up thinking, you know, what if I just a broccoli probably every day, all day and maybe an apple, I'd be like the most healthiest person in the world.

Right. Like because the food pyramid man, was it just the food pyramid.

That's the earliest thing I remember is you had, like, fill in that little pyramid. I don't know. I mean, I don't know, I'm guessing.

But where is this as a society? Did it? I think we know because if you go back two or three generations, it wasn't that way. Right. You go back to your parents parents. They understood that meat was valuable and that meat was something that was more expensive because it was more valuable nutritionally. It's really only in the last 70 years. And you can trace it back to and Silkies in the 1960s. There's a series of epidemiology studies that were done that began to vilify saturated fat and some people.

Epidemiologist Yeah, I was just about to do that.

Epidemiology of. Observational research, it's a survey they're going to take a thousand or 10000 people and hand them a survey that says, what did you eat for the last ten years? How much McDonald's, how many steaks, how many French fries, how many of these things, you know, how many things that you eat like this. And then they're going to look at how healthy those people are. And in Western countries, in Western countries, that's a really important point, because I'll contrast it with eastern countries in a moment.

But in Western countries, if you do that epidemiology today and like we've been doing it for the last 50 to 60 years, oftentimes you will see an association, a correlation between people eating red meat and adverse health outcomes.

But we know see where this is going. Yeah, we know correlation does not causation make. We can't draw a causative inference from a correlation. And these epidemiology studies, these observational studies were never meant to do that. They were meant to generate a hypothesis, a guess which you then test with interventional studies and interventional studies with red meat have been done there. Just never talked about on the evening news. We'll get to those.

They don't show any problems with meat, but the epidemiology studies show often not all the time, but often in Western countries with Western narratives, that meat is associated with bad outcomes.

Now, here's the question I have for you guys. How many times have you been to a barbecue and seen someone only eat meat? They just eat a hamburger patty. They don't eat anything else with it.

There's no ketchup, there's no bun, there's no mayonnaise. There's no French fries. There's no coleslaw. There's no potato salad.

How many times have ever seen that happen? How many times have you ever seen someone walk into McDonald's and just get a hamburger patty?

It made me five year old and bought him a hotdog and only gave him a hotdog. You might see that result, right? Right. Maybe. But he might eat the bun.

He might you might wonder later, like what happened to the Bongsoo just standing there at the top.

I think at the height of Atkins, I might have seen it once in a restaurant where someone literally just eight to two hamburger patties on their plate.

Right? Yeah, I've never seen it. But you get my point right.

People who eat meat generally because we have been told because you guys have heard this narrative you just told me, we've been told the narrative throughout our whole life for the last 60 years that red meat is bad for you.

So who eats red meat? It's people that are out there and their opinions on the Harley with Tats and the Hell's Angels or the the, you know, wild hogs. They're doing other rebellious stuff. They're looking at this health advice and go on. I don't care about health advice. I'm going to discard that house advice and every other piece of health advice there is. I'm not going to exercise. I'm not going to get a colonoscopy or a mammogram.

I'm going to smoke when I ride this motorcycle, not going to get in the sun. How many French fries with my hamburger drink plenty to drink alcohol.

And so this is the problem. You can't epidemiology studies cannot differentiate the meat from everything that gets eaten with the meat. And how often do things get eaten with the meat that might also be causing problems? And we can get into this.

And I think that the real the real problem and this will be interesting for your listeners here, the real problem is not the meat. It's not the liver, it's not the hamburgers. The real problem is the processed food. And the reason the processed food is bad is because of processed vegetable oils.

And we can get into that when the time has come. But processed vegetable oils, linoleic acid like this is the real thing, driving problems.

And if you look at meat, it is so often eaten with vegetable oils and so many processed foods have these vegetable oils in the linoleic acid, which is a complex word in there.

So that's a whole nother rabbit hole we have to go down. But the point is, people eat a lot of junk food. They eat a lot of sugar, they eat a lot of bread.

The a lot of alcohol and cigarettes with meat and epidemiology can't differentiate. But every time you or I or anyone hears on the news, red meat is associated with facts.

That word is associated. You will never hear on the news red meat causes.

Because if you actually look at the interventional studies, the studies, where they actually go to a laboratory or they take people and they do it, they do an interventional trial, they'll take 100 people and they say, OK, this study has actually been done.

And I reference it in the book.

They said, OK, we want you to remove we want to remove 250 calories from your diet of carbohydrates.

And we're going to have you put in eight ounces of red meat per day. And they follow those people with a control group.

So they have two groups. One group has eight ounces of red meat, half a pound, pretty substantial amount of red meat in their diet, extra per day. The other group has died, as usual, and they followed four, eight, six, ten weeks.

And they look at the end of the study. The group with more red meat is better, they have a lower inflammatory markers, lower inflammatory mark, I'm getting a buzz.

I can't tell if it's from the liver pills because of what you're telling, because you're so excited about this red meat. Well, maybe just give me a buzz and you haven't even gotten into it yet. But I recently switched and started cooking when I fry fish, fry it and be fat. That's the way to talk for Talo. Don't kill. Yeah, vegetable oil. I switch. And here's the thing.

Every time I fire that thing up, I feel guilty. But I also feel like I just want this. I like it better and it's better and I feel like something in the back of my head is tell me I'm being bad. No. And we always do like what I think it makes sense.

It's like this one, I think like as a human being who studies sort of human history, world history, that. Right. Like I do things that I think makes sense. Right. I can just see it. But then I'm always in the back of my head is like that someone told me that it's bad, but it goes against what my general tendency would be like if I could take an animal and it has fat on nothing, just been out like feeding on grass and it has fat.

And I make the oil from that. It's like I'm like it's hard for me to picture that.

That's worse for me than some shit a chemist made.

And it's just hard for me to answer. But but I have to accept that it's true because I've been told kind of.

Exactly. And so before 1911, there was no such thing as vegetable oil, in fact, before 1865. So in 1865, cottonseed oil was made from cotton seeds. These are not food. Nobody eats cotton seeds.

In 1911, Cresco was founded and they started making vegetable oil. And ever since between 1865 and 1911, human health got a little bit worse. But between 1911 and now, we've just absolutely we've tanked.

If you look at the rates of diabetes, if you look at the rates of chronic disease, they are skyrocketing in the last 100 years and they're really going up since the 1970s and 1980s.

And so vegetable oil was not even a thing. It didn't even exist.

Our ancestors, our parents and grandparents, really our great grandparents in the early eighteen hundreds, all those people who died and then were in that cemetery last night that I saw who died in 1880, they were not eating vegetable oil. It didn't even exist. They were eating tallow and lard.

And the pigs that were making that lard were not fat on corn and soy. They were just spit on, you know, things pigs are supposed to eat. But the Tallahasse.

Yeah, grasshoppers and carrots and, you know, they were just doing things wild hogs are supposed to eat. And those ancestral animal fats are what are treasured in indigenous cultures. And that's what we see over and over that there was really in the medical literature, there was really no such thing as a heart attack until the really 1920s, 1930s, early 1910, that type of region. And we didn't even think about heart attacks in this American people until the 1950s when Eisenhower, I believe, had his heart attack.

So it's just been it's a new invention. It didn't even happen.

We were eating animal fat people in the old days. People like when I was little, even like my grandparents.

You just say that he died of old age, right, but I think now we just put names to it. I'm going to go back to saying people died of old age.

Well, because no one dies of old age when they die from something very specific that was like diagnosed.

Right. But uses bucketed all as being old age. Yes, I don't know. But I don't know if people are dying of heart attacks.

Well, they're just dying. They get old and die, and no one knew why they died.

Well, I think that what what we knew of medicine then was different. But even in the early 90s, hundreds, there was really no no heart attack in the medical literature.

People didn't, like, go and say, oh, my God, I have so much pain in my chest.

You know, people didn't have that they would die of pneumonia or infections or things like that. But heart attacks or I mean, we could tell when the heart arteries are blocked or you could tell if somebody has like this heart attack and they have this pain in their chest. That just wasn't even something that we recorded until that. And even in the early 1920s, 1930s, it was rare as we were getting more and more medical knowledge and getting a sense of the heart and how it worked.

And then over time, it just got to be more and more common. And so you're absolutely right, Steve.

Vegetable oil is completely synthetic. It's something humans would have never eaten. And the amount of this fatty acid in their linoleic acid is really giving our bodies this evolutionarily inconsistent signal and causing massive problems. Not to mention that because of the molecular structure of this oil, it oxidizes, it becomes rancid very quickly. And in order for us to eat it and not notice that and not just spit it out because it tastes like garbage, it has to be bleached and deodorized.

But you're right, it's made in a lab. If you look at the way vegetable oils made, there's nothing there's nothing natural.

There's nothing, you know, even that that our ancestors could have ever done with, that our ancestors could have never ground a cottonseed or her rapeseed or, you know, a soybean into oil. They could have never done these things. What about Olive?

Yeah, I was just going to ask, is that a better oil? Yeah, olive oil is different. So when I think about oils, I think about and again, I don't get too technical, but I think about the linoleic acid content in that oil. Linoleic acid is an omega six polyunsaturated fat and olive oil is about 10 percent linolenic acid. And it's mostly monounsaturated fat, which is oleic acid, which is actually a fat that our body makes is an 18 carbon monounsaturated fat called oleic acid.

We don't make linoleic acid in the human body. We need a small amount, but we store extra, which means when you're eating foods that are drenched in vegetable oil, you're storing it and storing it and storing it.

And that leads to major problems.

So olive oil isn't is a much better oil to eat. I think that I'm with Steve only Talo. I want to eat animal fats because that's going to have more of the nutrients. But olive oil is probably shouldn't even be better than vegetable oil. But if you're going to cook in an oil, you got to be a little careful.

You want to heat it too much. But this is the point that a lot of the foods that we're told are healthy for us are completely contrived.

I mean, Kale has the best publicist in the whole world. When did we start thinking that broccoli and kale were healthy?

So I did want to go back and complete.

I want to go back and complete the stuff of life because we got like I got like a kale pass you wouldn't begin to comprehend in my garden.

And then we were talking about how kale, like a grown up, whatever you didn't pay attention to.

Holy shit. People are high on kale. It's people like kale.

It's kind of good publicist man, but it doesn't love you back. And we can talk about why.

But you were say something earlier about broccoli and that narrative is what's been told to all of us.

And so there's both the unhealthy user bias, which is all the people who are eating red meat and all the other bad stuff, and all the people who are eating vegetables are doing all the healthy stuff.

And so you see it over and over in Western cultures.

But it's interesting if you look at epidemiology done in Asia and there's two studies in the book I mentioned with over probably close to 300000 people between both studies. If you look at Asia, the men who eat the most red meat have the lowest rates of heart disease. And the women who ate the most red meat have the lowest rates of cancer is is red meat.

Is red meat good for Asians is good, you know, and bad for Westerners.

Know the narrative is completely different, the narrative, because in Asia, red meat is associated with affluence.

I was going to I was thinking this might be that's where it might had red meat is affluent, so it's red meat. The people that are affluent, the people that are going to actually think about health behaviors, the people that have a higher socioeconomic status, which allows more care to doctors, which is going to give better health outcomes.

So that's the huge thing that we're seeing with epidemiology is telling us about a cultural narrative.

We can generate a hypothesis and we have to test it. And those tests have been done, but they don't get on the news. And the tests clearly show red meat and organs are not bad for humans.

And why would they be? We've been eating them for millions of years.

Can you touch on something real quick? I mean, you made the point great by double back around on it where you talk about the correlation causation thing.

Yeah. I wrote a great explanation once for some group was putting out how. Pet owners live longer. Insinuating that, right? Go get a pet and you'll live longer. Right. I remember reading like a sort of deconstruction of what that meant about. Well, let's take a look at pet owners in America versus non pet owners in America. Right.

There are a lot of things that are sort of in the package of pet owners that they tend to have a home and some amount of expendable income and on and on and on. And so, yes, I would believe that that's true.

I don't think it's owning the pet that is making you live longer.

Like, how do you how do you describe that, like that problem that people run into?

There's an amazing website called Spurious Correlations Dotcom. That's not this very well. That's what I'm trying to get at spurious correlation, spurious correlations. And I have a graph, a couple of graphics of this in the book.

And you can see this correlation between the divorce rate in Maine and the per capita margarine consumption.

And they're very highly correlated. They're extremely highly correlated.

Yes, absolutely. It's in the book. Yeah. The idea with Maine and the margarine is they're highly correlated. But are we thinking that if people eat less margarine, they're going to get divorced less? No, that makes no sense.

There are things that happen in the world that are correlated, that have no actual causal relationship. I mean, the most hilarious one that's always quoted is the number of movies Nicholas Cage appears in is highly correlated with, like I think it's something morbid, like death hangings by suicide or something like that.

And so you can see these charts are in that website. So you can and people would say, OK, Nicholas Cage movies are causing people.

So he does a lot of movies. A lot of people, a lot of people kill themselves, right? Yes. It's a highly correlated fact, but it doesn't mean that they cause the same thing.

You have to really break it down. You generate a hypothesis and then you test it. And when you really get to the nitty gritty and you do the tests, red meat is not harmful to humans, but we never hear about that.

And why would it be why would a food and this is the kind of this is the way that I think about this.

And I think you guys get this because you think about it the same way. Why would something that has made up the majority of the human diet that is crucial, that has all these unique nutrients that we were talking about at the beginning of the show?

I mean, like, you can't get BWV without eating meat. You can't get COLENE and any significant amount without eating meat. You can't be a an optimally functioning human without eating meat. Why would it be bad for us?

There's an amazing set of studies where they gave vegetarians creatine. So creatine is this muscle. It's a muscle derived molecule. It's a molecule we find in the muscle, in the brain that holds onto a phosphate group so it can donate its ATP, which is the energy currency of the body. So we needed to think and run neurones and flex muscles and things like this.

When they give extra creatine to vegetarians, they get smarter. They do better on memory and recall tasks and court card sorting tasks.

They get smarter because they're creatine deficient in their vegan and vegetarian diet. Why would a food that provides us with all of these unique nutrients be bad for us?

This makes no sense and it begins to kind of crystallize when you think about epidemiology, that's why we've been so misled.

You know, I think part of where it comes from, you'll is better than I do, but. Unexplained, we're using a different example.

There's a group called the Wildlife Conservation Society, and they've always been opposed to wildlife trafficking, so particularly trafficking in endangered species.

They've always resisted on a conservation standpoint.

They've opposed, you know, markets sell like illicit wildlife materials, tiger hides, you know, whatever, panda bear claws, what have you. When covid hit. They took a new tact or they're like, see wildlife, we told you wildlife markets are bad.

It gave us covid, but it was like, I know that you believe wildlife markets are bad, but you've always said wildlife markets are bad because it encourages illicit trade in endangered species. You could point out to me that here's another reason. But you can't have it be that the whole reason switched. And now we should hate wildlife markets because what you really want is you want wildlife markets to go away because you're trying to protect endangered species.

You're now being opportunistic by attaching your argument to covid transmission.

And I think that a big like much of the anti I think much of the anti meat thing is they're saying, I don't want people to be mean to animals. I don't want it to be animal exploitation. That's only going to fly with so many people. My message will resonate with far more people. If I could make a health thing. And I think that's like a huge part of this. It's a it's a very big part of it.

And I think that a lot of people in the plant based space, I believe, are well-intentioned. I just think that they're not thinking about the studies properly.

And if you ask them a lot of them, do you believe morally that the consumption of animals is not a good thing?

And those are sticky arguments to get into with people?

I think that you wade into that ever. I try because I get into the ethics of it.

Yeah, because I've hunted and I just stayed at a high level that if you look at the regenerative agriculture space, which is grass feeding, grass finishing of cows and regenerative, you know, rotational grazing, that's essentially the way that bison and other ruminants have always lived on the plains. And that is carbon negative, meaning it sequesters more carbon into the soil than those animals produce. And that's been the main that's been one argument is sort of the the environmental argument.

So to say the cows are killing the planet is completely false because they're not.

It's just how they manufacture academy these days in in some sense. Yes, but it's very it's a deep rabbit hole because that also is very misleading as well. And there's been conflation of data from the FAO versus the EPA.

And in my book, I have a graphic of EPA data showing that if you look at tailpipe, the tailpipe, quote unquote, meaning if you look at the amount of methane emissions in carbon dioxide equivalents, those are two different molecules that if you look at the amount of methane and carbon dioxide equivalents that comes out of a cow versus what comes out of a tailpipe in the United States, there's of a car.

Those are essentially tailpipe to tailpipe. There is no comparison, no comparison.

Cars and trucks and transportation is like twenty six percent of the U.S. greenhouse gas emissions in 2016 when this EPA data came out and ruminants are one point nine percent. And that includes even the kyphosis, the clustered animal feeding operations.

But I agree with you that. Right.

You're talking about one point nine percent, one point nine percent. Now, this is U.S. data from the EPA and its tailpipe to tailpipe. What's so misleading is people will show data and plant based circles with from the FAA. And the FAA did a survey and they looked at worldwide data and they took lifecycle analysis of a cow and compared it to tailpipe emissions of a car.

Lifecycle analysis means how many carbon dioxide equivalents do we do we use up or do we put in the atmosphere and the whole lifecycle of the cow? Well, if we have to put them on a truck and move them somewhere, what about the amount of carbon it takes to run the factory? It has to slaughter them. What about the carbon it takes to run the store that sells it to you? You know, that's the life cycle of a cow in terms of carbon dioxide equivalents.

And they're comparing that to what comes out of the tailpipe of a car. No one's ever done a life cycle analysis of a piece of corn.

Oh, well well, they've never they've done that, but they've never done lifecycle analysis of what comes out of the end of your car.

They've never done lifecycle analysis of petroleum and transportation. So nobody knows. And this is what's so crazy.

And I really think that the transportation industries are protecting themselves because they are hugely contributing to this in a big way.

You know, if you look at how much carbon dioxide equivalent or how much they're sitting there going, oh, it's not us, it's the cows.

Exactly. Exactly. And nobody's ever looked at the life cycle of a plane or a train or a car drag and all that metal out of the ground smelting, making roads.

You know how much it cost to maintain the car, how much cost to do the parts, how much it cost over the life cycle of changing the tire.

Exactly. So. Right. So all we can ask the point man on that, nobody's done that. All we can look at is tailpipe, the tailpipe and any PhD student sitting out there looking for a dissertation, you're not going to get funding.

Don't ask the auto industry for funding. Nobody's going to fund that, you know, because they don't want you to know.

So I'd be curious to hear from you guys about your experiences with hunting. But I've wanted a small amount. But I found it very spiritual, and I don't mean that to sound flippant. So I've hunted deer three seasons now in my bow and I've gotten a deer twice.

And both times that I've killed the deer with my bow.

It's been one of the most memorable experiences of my life and the first thing I think of is, holy shit, I better live a good life because this is a responsibility this deer gave itself to me. This is an incredibly, incredibly privileged position that I am in to eat the most nutritious food on the planet. And this is a this is a requirement.

This is an ask. However you think about the universe and God and the spirituality in our place and all of it, this is this is sort of life asking me to be a good person. What I've realized from the work I read this one of Tom Brown's book, Yerbury read The Tracker, Tom Brown.

Nobody has read that. Yeah. Grandfather in point in that book says in order for something to live, something else must die. And it's so true. You know, the lion on the plains doesn't feel bad about killing the antelope. It's what it must do to live in it. It's part of the cycle of life. We're all going to die. I'm going to be food for worms one day. And if I'm out hiking, it's I'm Bob Katter.

Cougar decides to try and take me home on a fight. But, you know, maybe I'm part of the circle of life, too, and I'm going to accept that.

And so, oh, it's it's the human burden, right? The human burden is. Is that like no other species has any remorse, any even any even compassion for suffering?

It's just amazing. I will tell you otherwise, to watch predators kill shit, man, dude. It just they just don't. I'm not criticizing them. I mean, God bless them, but it's not they're not like I'm going to go in there and make a good, clean kill.

You know, it's just not on their mind, man. And it's an interesting thing to think about, but that's the way I imagine it.

And so when people I think if someone wants to want chooses not to eat animals because they they don't want to cause suffering, I think that's your choice. You know, that's your moral choice. And you have to be careful about how it's going to affect your own health. And will you come hunting with me or somebody who has more experience with me and see what it's about and see what the responsibility is like and realize that this is how we do what we do on this earth?

I mean, we kind of talked about this at the beginning of the podcast. I was what I am so passionate about is helping as many people as possible live well, live as fully as possible by getting getting the nutrients into them that are lost, these nose to tail nutrients with heart and soil.

And this eating animals are the tail, understanding that animal foods have been incorrectly vilified. In order for me to do my work in this short life as well as possible, I need to be nourished. I have to have nutrients.

So in order for me to have to carry out the mission that I think is most important, like my responsibility is to nourish this body. And I don't drink alcohol for a lot of the same reasons. I just I want to be a healthy individual.

Tell us about your diet. I can do something good. OK, yeah. But I think that that's what we do. And we need to nourish ourselves to do the work that we're going to do.

And the nourishment has to come from animals. And I don't think that we should feel bad about that.

That's an interesting point you bring up. And I I guess I felt that a little bit, but I hadn't articulated it.

And we had a the founder of Black Reifel Coffee Company, Zongo. And it was when it was early in the pandemic and he said something interesting to me where he was talking about everybody was stressed out, right? Like I was stressed out and we were kind of like everybody is we're like really analyzing their obligations.

And, you know, you're like sort of triaging all the things in your life because this is a few months ago.

Seems like a million years ago now, but like a few months ago, everybody's kind of like, holy shit. And he had made his point of like that. He he views his obligations in these concentric circles, the build out from him. So and and he has this this this view of it that I thought sounded selfish. But once you explained it, it was it he's like I said, at the center of the concentric circle. Absolutely wrapped around that as my family, you know, and he said for me, wrapped around that is my company and the people that rely on this company to try living.

And he went on to say that, like, that's where I take care. I have to take care of the center, because if I don't take care of the center, then the the concentric circles out from that. Aren't in a position to be properly serviced, and it was like interesting to hear someone put it, because the obligation you have to be like with it to be present, to be healthy, to be like mentally clean, to not be hung over every morning.

Right. It's like it's not just you like looking out for yourself.

You can imagine it as a way that you're protecting those things that are wrapped around you, because there has to be that like strong core and center.

If you don't protect yourself, who does that fall to?

Yeah, listen, no one's going to do it. And then. And then. And then. Yeah, no one's going to do it.

And I mean, look, we've all got this life to do good work. I mean, Art, we're all here to do art. We're all here to make our own art. And for me as a physician, I've realized that in order to make art, you have to be healthy.

And I know you guys, we can talk about how to define healthy, but nutrition and nutritional density and nutrients and absence of inflammation and autoimmunity that allows people to make their art. There's so much beautiful art.

And whether it's painted art or singing art or this type of spoken art or writing art like this allows us to do our work. And that's what makes life meaningful, is to create something beautiful. You got to be healthy to do it. And that's why I want to do what I do is to help people make more beautiful art, because God knows we need more beautiful art in this world. And that sounds woohoo! But you get it. And it's exactly the same thing that we have to take care of ourselves.

And for me, when I was hunting, I'll just wrap this thought up and then I'll tell you what I eat like I realized, OK, this is the most nutritious food on the planet. Those those two whitetail that I've eaten have been some of the most nourishing food. But I also remembered every single bite, like, OK, I took this life. Is this my responsibility to do well and also to be a kind of human? And so it's this amazing kind of, quote, sacrament.

It's just remind me to be a good human. And I think that's one of the tragic things about getting your food from a grocery store all the time. And you guys probably get this. I mean, I think that if more people could hunt, we would be a different society.

And that's the way it used to be. You know, I mean, think about how many generations ago. It wasn't that long ago when a lot of the food we got was from hunting. And if people just look below the surface, I'm sure that would have reminded them this is I should be gracious for this. This is bounty. This is nutritious food.

I'm not going to waste it. I eat all the organs, get all my nutrition, and it's going to nourish me to do whatever I find meaningful in this life. And that's that's my take as a doctor.

So it's cool stuff. Whether you camping in the woods or at a backyard get together, there's nothing like a roaring fire to bring you back to what matters. Dude, I was just recently thinking about my favorite one of my favorite fireside memories as I was with my friend Eric Kurn, someone named Carly, someone named Sue. And I kept hearing something hitting the leaves around us. And I was like Matheran in a weird way. And I realize it's a giant flock of turkeys in the trees over our heads.

And it was their scat hitting the leaves around us and honest and whatnot.

Solo stuff can help create more of these story worthy moments. But without the fireside fumes, solo stoves, these things are cool. Solo stoves.

Stainless steel construction is designed to regulate air flow and burn more efficiently, which means there's so little smoke, you wonder how there's so much fire.

Plus you don't get campfire smell in your clothes and hair and there's nothing left in the bottom of ultrafine ash for easy cleanup. I get burned stuff incredibly efficiently. From camp stoves to backyard bonfires. Solo stove products are portable and built to last. They're easy to light with just a few bits of starter. You can take your solo stove with you on the road or set it up on your rooftop or in your backyard.

I got turned on to these things because my body, when they go, goes camping with his family, with his with his fifth wheel, he brings the solo stove along and uses it instead of using like the campground fire rings because it works better and doesn't require as much fuel to get a good repair. Solo stove is so confident in their products, they give you a lifetime warranty for every purchase. No one needs a reason to gather round the fire solo stove just took away any reason not to.

And now you can get ten dollars off when you use promo code meter at checkout.

Just go to solo stove dotcom and remember ten bucks off when you use promo code meter, check these things out. The clinic also had to slow carry case Largos and do. It's a real slick little contraption. Check about ten bucks off.

I think there is a lot of value in the. The mental aspect of it, I mean, you know, it's not all chemistry, too, because when we're eating fish and game that we caught ourselves or hunted ourselves or even eating things that we grew ourselves, I just like I become aware of it and otherwise wouldn't pay any attention to it.

I just be like, oh, whatever.

You know, it wouldn't be interesting to me. But also it becomes like intensely interesting to me. And this probably and I like it.

I pay more attention to it and focus on it more and more concerned about the quality, because it's like it becomes a thing of spiritual mental interest to me and it heightens its heightened my awareness and involvement with it, whereas otherwise it would be just like another blousy, boring thing that I wasn't even considerate of, you know?

And I think that humans need wild places just like they need nutrients. Every time you take a bite of food that you've grown or gathered or hunted, there's a memory of being in a wild place or being in some outdoors somehow. And that's nourishing for us. To you think? And I think about I think about the camping trip and the hunting trip I went on in January in Junction, Texas, where I where I got that deer, you know, with my bow.

And then I think about the one in Flagstaff, Arizona, a few years ago where I got my bow and I know exactly what happened and I know that space. And in order to get those animals with a bow, I had to know that space well. I had to become part of that space. And I think where am I in relation to these animals? How do I smell? What time of day is it? And so you get this wilderness experience and that's also valuable for humans.

So the whole thing kind of wraps it to each other and gives you this such a powerful experience that I think for me has always spoken to the ethical consideration, like, yes, we don't want anything to suffer. And this is such a rich experience.

And I would suggest an indispensable, invaluable part of being a human to be interacting with animals that way in a respectful way. You really become part of the whole community, don't you?

You do. You're part of an ecosystem. You know, you become part of an outdoor ecosystem, an outdoor community.

And I think that I mean, going to grocery stores is kind of tragic.

We all have to do it today. But how cool would it be to get back into that more?

And that's what you guys do and that's why it's so cool. And I want to get back to doing more of that. And I think that it starts with nutrition and then you start getting back into those wild places. And I'm hoping to get to a point in my life really soon where I can do a lot more of that.

Now, in the book in the Carnivore code, I, I outline five tiers of a Carnivore diet.

And before I start into this, I'll just tell people who are listening. My intention in talking about carnivore diets and animal foods is not to convince everybody in the world to stop eating plants.

It's really to construct a diet hierarchy in terms of nutritional value. And like the way that these foods make us who we are, allow us to become as optimal as we can be as humans from like a medical, biochemical, nutritional perspective. And so my my thesis with a carnivore diet or an animal based diet, which a little is a little more of an inclusive idea, is that kind of like we've been talking about animal foods in nose to tail organs and meat have been at the center of our ancestors existence forever since we were hominids and that they are the most valuable foods on the planet.

And yet again, as we've talked about, they've been vilified the last 70 years. They should not be vilified.

So I think that the first step to doing our art, to being as optimal as possible is remembering that animal foods in NATO are the most nutritionally dense and valuable foods on the planet. Like I said earlier, they have nutrients that are not found anywhere else that are very difficult to get their magical foods, quote unquote. They're just the most nutritional foods on the planet. These are the most important foods for us to get. We should not believe that they are harmful for us.

And then beyond that, in the book, I've created a broad strokes perspective on what I believe are more and less toxic plants.

So I don't want people to think that they can't eat any plans or they shouldn't eat any plants. Some people do really well with no plants in their diet. I haven't eaten significant amounts of plant foods in over two years and I feel pretty darn good. And I'm not combusting with oxidative stress or, you know, backed up into ridiculous amounts of constipation. I poop every day. Guys, I know you're all wondering about this with no fiber in my diet.

I actually wasn't.

But it's good. It's good to hear. So I you know, there's this there's this spectrum of plant toxicity which plants are more and less toxic. And if people want to include plants in their diet, which are the least toxic parts of plants and the least toxic plants.

Yeah, you better explain plant toxicity. Yeah. I mean, it's the thing that plants I mean as much as you say a plant intentionally does something, it's like a part of a plant strategy.

It is absolutely a part of a plant strategy. And it makes sense evolutionarily when you go hunting animals, they're going to run away from you.

They're pretty crafty. They can bite you or kick you out Gheorghiu or they can just run away.

They're flying away or they're fast or they're crafty. They they fear better than us or smell better than us.

But plants are rooted in the ground. This is not surprising to anyone.

But there's been a coevolution between animals and plants for over 450 million years.

And animals and plants have been in this kind of ongoing warfare, this chemical warfare plants have had to evolve defense chemicals to meter, how much they get consumed by herbivorous animals or omnivorous animals or their would.

No such thing as Eco-Systems, if every tree was just made of chocolate or whatever, you know, delicacy, a bear or, you know, any animal wants to go eat it, there would be no plants left on the planet because animals would eat the plants, they would reproduce more and they would just be more and more animals and less and less plant.

So there is this delicate balance. And the delicate balance is really it's just it's coordinated.

It's orchestrated by these plant chemicals. And we're familiar with some of these.

A lot of us know about some plants that are toxic around, you know, around Christmas. If you have a poinsettia in your house you like, don't let the kids go by the poinsettia. You guys know the poinsettia plants?

Oh, yeah. But I don't know that message. Oh, they're super toxic. I don't know. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The super. I knew that and forgot.

I don't know. Toxic like in what way you eat. If a kid eats a poinsettia.

Yeah. They'll, they can get really, really sick. And there's a lot of other plants like that and we're familiar with gluten and lecterns messes up a lot of people's guts. I mean there's a lot of plants out there that are just totally frickin toxic. There are people that have died from eating too much Sorrel and Surrell, you know, and it's that's because of the amount of oscillates in there. So that's a whole nother thing we can go down a rabbit hole with.

But there are a lot of plant toxins out there.

And the idea is that the roots, the stems, the leaves and the seeds of plants are plants kind of just saying, hey, I'm here and you're there, I'm good.

Don't mess with me. I won't mess with you. Let's just try and be friends.

The I'm going to put some toxins in these foods, these parts, my plant, and dissuade you from overconsuming them. And if you eat a lot of them, you're not going to feel very good or you might even die. I might make this fruit every once in a while. And that's going to be less toxic because I kind of want you to eat that and then poop out my seeds somewhere else where it has this fertile pile of manure for me to grow.

But there's a clear communication here. And so if you look at plants, the seeds of plants, which essentially are seeds, nuts, grains and legumes, beans are all seeds, they're all plant babies, they're all plant reproductive efforts to reproduce, to put their generation forward, to put the next generation of DNA beyond them.

And these are some of the most highly defended parts of plants. And this won't really be totally foreign to anyone who's heard of things like gluten intolerance or celiac disease. Well, wheat is a grain and it has a lot of lecterns. Gluten is one lecterns are these one type of plant defense chemical compound. That is other lecterns like wheat gluten.

And a lot of things in wheat are not good for humans. It's a plant seed. It's a grain. A lot of other grains are not so good for us. Like beans. Beans are well, excuse me. A lot of other seeds are not so good for us, like beans. And if you eat, you're trying to eat a raw bean like off the plant.

They're trying to be like a kidney bean.

Ever seen kidney bean or alive? I've being around them off. They're super raw soybeans.

Really? Yeah. How'd you feel? I didn't eat enough. I knew that will mess you up so I never eat enough to be super messed up. So I read about a kid, a three year old kid who got lost in a soybean field one time and he'd eaten a bunch of soybeans and got sick. And I just wanted to see what was like. Yeah.

So if you eat raw beans, they will they will make you violently ill. And there are hundreds of recorded episodes now of people getting food poisoning from undercooked kidney beans. So a lot of the seeds out there are, frankly, toxic to humans. You know, apple seeds have toxic things in them like arsenic or cyanide, and they should stop eating those.

My dad was always like, eat the seeds and the core and all of the apple. Yeah. Mm hmm.

I mean, you can eat almost all things. Don't shoot.

I guess I've been poisoned. Let me hit you wanted that. Think you'll think is in it.

You'll appreciate this one. So I agree with snowshoe hares. Yeah.

They're famously cyclical and they're on these like, you know, seven year, eight year cycles where their populations explode and they collapse and explode and collapse and people try to correlate it to all kinds of things.

Sunspots. No one could ever find an explanation. Lead theory on why snowshoe hares have a cyclical spike is they predominantly will feed on WILLO. As the willows are getting overgrazed, they'll start putting a ton of energy into toxins. And then the primary food source of the animal actually starts to not be nourishing and kills it, all of a sudden you trim off this whole population of rabbits, the plants are going to graze anymore. They don't put energy into plant toxicity.

And eventually, of this very small amount of remnant rabbits are left, are back to eating a healthy food source, and this cycle seems to run in about a seven year cycle. And this is after many people postulated many things. But the lead theory on what drives that is there that plant's response to getting eaten by it.

And if you look at grazing animals, there are many historical examples of large herds of grazing animals dying and mass when they're cordoned off by fences or made to graze on a small amount of area. If you look at ruminants or grazing animals, they don't eat just one plant. I mean, this this example, the hares is interesting, but a lot of them will pick a little bit of this one, a little bit of that one little bit of that one, because they realize every plant has a toxin in it.

And if they get too much of this toxin, they're going to get sick. But they can get a little bit of this toxin limited of that toxin, a little bit of that toxin, a little of that toxin. Right.

So this is these are herbivorous animals.

But the thesis that I advance or, you know, kind of a hypothesis, what I'm saying in the Carnivore code with this idea is, look, eating animal foods made us human. And we can talk about why. I think that way. If you look at the evolution of the human brain, it exploded in size, not literally but figuratively in the last two million years. And that correlates very strongly with the advent of hunting. There were these are surely in these by facial tools, cut marks on bones, mass graves.

And you can date, you know, how old these bones and these animals are that have cut marks and stuff. It looks like humans started hunting about two million years ago. Our brain was about 500 species and it had been about 500 cows for the previous 90 million years.

And, you know, you go up and in the last and the next two million years, it grows from five hundred six to 506. It triples in size, which is a massive, energetic input for humans.

We had to change all sorts of things in our gut, and that was probably because there were more calories and there were these unique nutrients and animal foods, niacin, riboflavin, COLENE, carnitine, creatine that our brains needed to grow and something. When we had those boom, we can grow a bigger brain and that gives us more survival advantage. We get a neocortex, we can plan hunting with our with our tribe.

We can evade predators better. We don't have claws in towns anymore, but we can fashion spears and that's the human race goes on. And so a food that lies at the center of our evolution is is what we need to grow. And that really made us who we are. That's the statement I make in the book, that eating animals nose to tail made us human. It made us human.

And I think that because of that and there's good evidence for this, looking at stable isotopes of, you know, fossilized remains of teeth that are, I think, at least a million years old, which is crazy to think about that. And even more recent hunter gatherers from 50000 years ago, you can look at a stable isotope analysis of living Neanderthal and Homo sapiens in northern Europe and see that the majority of their protein was coming from animals. And you can look at these barium and cesium and nitrogen and carbon and sulphur isotopes and say, man, they were eating a lot of animals.

It looks like they were eating like more animals than known carnivores, like hyenas. So the thesis in a lot of anthropology circles is, hey, we were essentially high level carnivores.

We weren't eating all animals, but we were eating the majority of our diet as animals when we could get them. So I really think that our blueprint as humans is in stark contrast.

What we've been told today, it's not kale that's the superfood. It's the animal foods that are the super foods.

And that you see this in indigenous cultures, too. They seek out animals preferentially and they'll eat plants as fall-back, food, survival, food.

They don't really if they've got a big kill, then going to be like, hey, we got a whole whole elephant or whole water buffalo. Well, let's just put that aside. I'm going to go I'm going to go gather some tubers.

You know, I'm going to go gather some there's some good some good acorns over here.

They're like, no, I won't eat this frickin buffalo man. But we're we're adaptable as humans. And we do have the ability to be omnivorous.

And I think that we've used that throughout our evolution to during times of scarcity, use plant foods as fall-back foods as survival foods.

And this is because plants have toxins. So what have we done? We've learned how to ferment them. And you see this over and over. A lot of times when indigenous cultures eat plant foods, they're fermented things like sauerkraut. This comes from fermented cabbage. A lot of the toxins that are in cabbage, which are a lot of the same toxins and kale, are degraded when you ferment the cabbage. A lot of beans are fermented in sort of South American culture.

So we've figured out ways.

But if you look at the number of ways, the sheer volume of ways that humans have figured out to make plants more edible, it's clearly indicating they are full of toxins, whether it's cooking or dehorning or. Yeah.

So it's interesting point man, like the tomato plants we eat or, you know, the grains of stuff we eat.

You don't eat like you can't eat raw cane raw. You've got to do shit to make them edible. You got to do a lot of stuff.

You got a pressure cooker the heck out of. I mean, look at white rice.

You know, in Asian cultures, it's a staple and they figure it out, oh, if you take the whole off the rice, it's way less toxic for humans.

And we've been told the reverse. Oh, brown rice is more healthy, but brown rice has a lot of arsenic in it because arsenic is concentrated in the whole of the rice. And a lot of the things that prevent us from absorbing minerals are in the hull of the rice like vitac acid things. That so humans realize, hey, if we take the whole off the rice, we can get the grain out of the middle and there's a lot of nutrients in there, but there's at least calories to keep me going till tomorrow.

But where do we then get our massive micronutrient doses? We get them from animal foods.

So what do you eat every day? OK, this is my long winded answer for what I eat every day.

And the reason I had that whole sort of explanation was I wanted people to understand that this is my perspective on it, because when I say this, people are just going to be like, click off goes the podcast.

This guy's a loony bin. Maybe when you tell us what you eat.

Yeah, because you're doing it, you're doing an extreme version. We should have started with that. Yeah. We did it all be on it. Yeah. No, no. I mean so, so I don't eat plants all right.

I don't eat any plants. I haven't had any plants in over two years. I did a short experiment for a couple of days where I was wearing a continuous glucose monitor where I included some berries and some squash in my diet just to see what would happen to my glucose. But I found that I feel better without plants. And the reason I don't even eat plants is because I don't there are no nutrients and plants that I can't get from eating animals nose to tail.

And I take what you can't.

What do you say? Plants. You're talking like flower, like we know like plant any plant. I'm saying I mean, you're including that. Oh yeah.

I'm including like grains of flour and we like, you know, the salmon skip a green vegetables. No. And all of that is made every once in a while. I'm on a date with a girl and I don't eat plants.

And she goes, well, do you eat bread? No, I don't eat bread. I know you plants well. Do you know, I just I don't think you understand. Like, I don't eat plant products like all I eat with all it animals.

And, you know, people say, well, then you just eat meat. And I was like over on the date. They usually that's usually the end of the day.

And they're like they kind of roll their eyes. They're just not sure what to think. I think they're in shell shock after that. I'm not sure. Yeah, I try to get that to like the second or third date. I try not to let that go.

You don't do dinner dates, right? I like you to go to a restaurant. I'm like about that. Let's just go for a walk. Let's just go hiking or something so doesn't go over so good. People think it's a little strange, but I don't eat, I don't eat plants. I eat only meat. But by meat I don't just eat meat. Right. I eat meat and liver and organs. So I eat two meals a day.

I'm interested in time restricted feeding, which is eating. I eat breakfast and I eat lunch, a late lunch. And then I don't eat dinner because I want to have some period in the day where I'm not eating kind of like this intermittent fasting type of idea. And if you look at this, you know, I take my ketones in the morning and I actually have ketones in my blood every morning.

So I get into ketosis. What I think is a good thing for humans to kind of cycle in and out of ketosis, but not be in it all the time.

I think when you're done telling us about what you eat, then we should talk a little bit about keto ketosis.

Oh yeah. Do that. But but finish this because but I want to I got to have you do sleep in the morning, so I wake up in the morning.

So this morning I eat the same thing pretty much every day I've got it works for me and I mean I'm easy. But again, it's not to say that you have to eat this way. There's a lot of variety. We're building a cookbook around this too, so I eat a lot. So I eat grass fed grass, finish meat from Argentina, farms, a lot of good farms. I want to support that type of agriculture. If I can't eat an animal that I've hunted, I'll eat meat from those farms.

And so I'll eat about a pound of meat twice a day, eat a little less than two pounds of meat a day. Again, it's right now it's a lot of stew meat and I make bone broth, so I'll make my own bone broth with knuckle bones. It has all the tendons on there. And what I'll do is I'll blanch the meat in bone broth and then add salt to it. And then I'll eat the bone broth and tendons and I'll get my glycine, the connective tissue and I'll eat the meat.

And then I also eat some organs. And so as many of the fresh organs as I have, I'll eat though. So most days I'll eat liver, heart, spleen, pancreas.

I've got thymus. I'll eat it. If I can get testicle, I'll eat it. And your butcher's got to love you because you're buying the stuff they have.

No, it's not even at the butcher. It's hard to get. I got to talk to my father. You're buying all the stuff that winds up in a rendering. Yeah, yeah. And that's that's important, you know.

So I get all the organs I can in a day a few ounces, and then I'll eat some suet because I'm really interested in this kidney fat. It's high in a compound called studied it.

I just I chew it and I have like a swig of bone broth with it kind of warm because I see what's really waxy.

It's all either straight, as straight as, you know. You don't you don't you don't, like, render it out in a pan or like you make a cracklin.

No, I just eat it. I just take the suet raw and I eat it with bone broth and then I'll add some redmann, real salt.

And then so for the first year and a half you're OK with salt. Yeah. Yeah, totally OK with salt.

Before you get to how it felt, tell me about just blanching stew meat, because that to me sounds real tough.

It's actually not bad at all because I don't over Blanche it I mean, I'm just doing that because I find stew meat to be affordable. People will sometimes criticize my diet and say I can't eat two rabbis a day. That's fifty bucks in me. And I go, well, I eat eight dollars a pound, grass fed grass, finished stew meat. And I think it's I think it's great.

So you take the bone. Yeah, that's a good question. You take you make bone broth, which I get, and then imagine you probably pick all the stuff off the bone. I eat all of it and I actually will chew on the bones to eat.

And then and then you'll take stew meat, slice it, slice it thin or cut it, however, and you'll heat up bone broth to cook. The stew meat, and this is how I'm do it now, you could you ever do you ever. Derivatives take animal fat and fry meat in fat. I don't why not? I have in the past, but because I'm a scientist. Because I'm a doctor and I think about lipid peroxides and all this other.

Can't tell me about this.

So, you know, I don't know keytar about your food out of my nose. Was it lipid peroxide? Lipid peroxide? Tell me why Fried's bad for you, Steve. All right. Now I'm disappointed I put on my nose. I don't know because I've done a lot of that. OK, I think that's probably if you're fine in animal fat, I think you probably find has a lot of cultures that do it. But I do experiments myself all the time.

I'm trying to optimize because I realize that I'm like, so you're like against frying stuff in animal fat.

I'm not against it. I just like doing the experiments in myself to see because I'm like the pirate man. I'm like the astronaut on the way to the moon.

Nobody's ever done this before. And I just want to be like, is this better or is it worse? I want to be the person that kind of helps people understand, like, this is the ideal, but you can do it this way, too.

I'm not completely against flying things in animal fat.

I used to do that a lot. I just do a lot of the blanching now. And so I'll put it in the bone broth for maybe less than a minute. So I like my meat really raw. And so you just cooked the outside and then you know the insides pretty much like Blu ray.

Yeah, yeah. I'm not overcooking it. And the meat I get from these regenerative farms is pretty darn tender. I love it.

Not all. Are you not into fish. We can talk about fish photography, too. Don't be me, you're doing all this so I love fish. I just feel like a lot of fish is from sources that are polluted. If I can eat fish from clean rivers and lakes or oceans, I'll do it.

So you don't like the heavy metals? I don't like the heavy metals. Worried about this than micro plastics? Yes, I think about this because I, I test my heavy metals all the time and I test the metals in my clients.

And if I have had clients who eat Opeth, they go to the store, they get old pots, wild Opar, they get you know, oh that is it. Just like I think I'm one of these bigger deep-sea fishes. Oh ok.

Yeah. Halibut one is on his don't eat swordfish.

Yeah. Halibut, swordfish, those kind of things. A lot of metals and you'll see this interview is going down. So we should have started with this if you're, if you're a guinea pig yourself.

Like all. I mean I think that's awesome. I think we should have just started with this intro to to like set the record straight.

He's, you know, I think it's great, but I've no reason to apologize. I'm just not weird. It's just, you know.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, it's like you feel a little bit of burden, right? If I'm going to write a book as a physician, I'm going to test all my labs. I've probably done over a thousand bloodwork test at this point. And I talk about, yeah, I trust my labs all the time. I had a couple of blood tests like last week. I've done it on my podcast multiple times. I love doing blood work and looking at things and looking at my inflammatory markers and my heavy metals.

And I want to know these things because I'm writing a book and I have to be able to tell people this is what I think works. This is what I believe works. And I work with clients doing this too. So I see it all the time.

And what I said about the Opah or the the I had someone need a lot of tuna and you see the mercury in the blood rise. I mean, even three week, three times a week, wild salmon. I'll see the mercury bump a little bit. And I'm like, oh, is that ideal? Have we just over polluted all the oceans at this point? And I think, well, I like fish and I love fishing and I love I've only flatfish a couple of times.

But I freakin love being on rivers. I love being in those places. But I ask myself, is it the best food in 2020? Was it was it fantastic food three hundred years ago? Absolutely.

But the thing I worry about is that is fishing. I tell people I can't fish.

I'm just trying to offer tools that might be helpful for human health. Yeah, yeah. But is fishing now like eating beef grown in downtown Tokyo? You know, if you eat beef that's inhaling lots of polluted air all the time, is that the best kind of beef you want to eat? Like I want to eat beef that's grown on idyllic farm in Northern California.

Well, yeah, but just eat short lived non perseverence fish. That's probably the way to do it. That's the way to do bluegills. Yeah. Eat small fish that don't accumulate medal's. Yeah.

Avoid big old fish to eat lots of big old fish.

Are you go that probably the way to do it. So if I did more that maybe not that I do that but I mean one could do that. You could do that. You could do that. And also if you were eating fish you could eat the fish and also tail to, you know, the the fish.

Roe is very beneficial and has been treasured by cultures for many generations as well.

Organized brain.

Yeah, those kind of things are valuable. Fish eyes, fish head soup. This is what we're talking about, nose to tail. Let's get back to your daily diet, OK? My daily diet. You know, you got your bone broth and my bone broth.

I blanched some some some some stupid in it. How much bone broth you drink.

Oh, so I make a big pot and it lasts me three to four days. I drink probably six ounces a day.

A bone broth, no coffee. I don't do coffee. It's a plant. Yeah. Do you get any kind of coffee type thing you make just to get that sensation of drinking coffee. I do deep breaths.

I just go, you know. Ah, just the organs. You know, if you ever need anything, you have to quit drinking coffee at some point in time. Was it hard? It was hard. I used to be a bike racer, so I used to race road bikes and there's a big culture and road biking around sipping your cappuccino with your finger out. Yeah, I like coffee and road biking and stuff.

Yeah, well, you know, that kind of rings a bell. I've seen it like a bunch of old dudes on bikes.

The little clicky shoes. Yeah. Yeah. Going and just going in to get coffee and there's, there's the spandex. Yeah. You wear spandex, you drink coffee a lot of the time. Click, click, click. Like yeah they're super excited.

Maybe they should be wearing spandex but that's a whole different, whole different story. So yeah when I had to stop drinking coffee out of wicked headache for a week and I was like OK, but it was given me.

You got through it, I got through all this drinking and give you a headache to drink.

I do. But sometimes I'm like I don't want to drink it for a week and I don't really drink camel tea in the morning. Yeah.

It's very, you're very you're the exception.

The I wind up, I can't get any coffee, I take a aspirin or ibuprofen, Prozac. What's the word I'm looking for. Proactively. Prophylactically actually.

Really. I'm like well I thought like well if I can't get a coffee I get a headache. So I just treat, I just treat the headache. And I used to take Excedrin, I used to carry around, etc.. He's got caffeine in it.

Just, I don't know, stick your head. I used to bring a Qatar and do like twenty five pushups. You're golden. It's paying for people.

Oh that's not what he's trying to, it's not the fact that he's not waking up. It's the fact that he's you're going to get ahead of the caffeine addiction.

So Excedrin has a little bit of caffeine in it. I used to bring it Kampen and if we were doing a thing where there was going to be coffee the morning, I would bring it and just take it instead of coffee.

So that I wouldn't get the coffee headache, but I wanted to feel all right, so there you are, you have all this bone broth, drink and bone broth, eaten tendons, blanched meat, and then I'll eat the organs and I eat the organs raw.

So I love to eat dog shit. All these shooters and I was talking to Kiran about this before. I think a good way to eat liver is to do a shooter. But I realize a lot of people won't do this, which is why we made the dessicated organ supplements as well. So I'll do the organs. And then so for the first I was just saying this for the first year and a half I did this.

I had no carbs in my diet. It was zero carb, but a lot of protein.

Bahamut, let me ask you. OK, we'll come back to that.

No, no, just a quick digression. Are you OK? Do you ever find yourself jurors sneak a donut? I think that I'm OK. I think that you ever like my God, do I want a donut? I you know what? I will never eat another cookie as long as I live. Really. I just don't crave them. See, that's like Yanni.

He's all anti sugar. Well, I just don't. You may not like the next thing I'm going to say, but I don't I don't I just don't crave those foods. I think in my mind I've been able. Did you used to, though?

No, I never did. Not even like a little kid. I mean. Sure, as a little kid I did. But at some point there was a shift in my mind.

And psychologically, I just connected the way I felt afterwards.

And I was like, it's not worth it. It's not worth it. Nothing tastes as good as healthy feels.

Tony Robbins said that I love it, you know, like I just prioritize it. I was like, you know what?

In medical school, I was doing jujitsu, man, I'm getting choked and shit.

I don't want to feel bad the next day, like, I can't eat a daughter, drink alcohol. And I was running and being in the woods.

There's so many cool things I want to do in my life. I don't want to it's not worth it to me to eat bad food.

That's why I quit drinking so much alcohol. I love drinking alcohol. I just don't like being hungover.

You feel like you're more connected to how your body feels and maybe the average person who if you ask, how do you feel after drinking five bottles of beer, how do you feel after eating half of a pound cake that that you're, for example, Diet Coke in a Diet Cokes or.

Yeah.

Or that you're actually tuned into a certain visceral feeling and experience of yourself, like moment by moment that you just you don't crave it because it feels like pain.

Absolutely.

And I think this is one of the key points is that when you simplify your diet enough, when you get clean enough, quote unquote, you get you get a good baseline.

A lot of people can't separate signal from noise, so they always feel shitty or they always feel a little bit hung over. They always feel a little bit brain fog or they're always a little depressed.

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

Then once you get clean, quote unquote, you know, once you and a lot of people experience that for the first time when they fast, because it's it's really tricky for people to understand what good food is.

But if you if you really don't know what to eat just fast for a few days, which is not easy, but fast for three days, and you will feel the best you've ever felt in your life because you have no negative inputs.

Now, the trick is being able to do that long term because you can't fast, forever, you will die. But if you can feel as good as you feel when you are fasting, when you're eating food, then you found food that really worked with your body. And that's the way that I and now thousands people feel when they're doing an animal based diet or mostly animal foods it NATO. And so, yes, I think that I've gotten so refined in the laboratory of this corporeal my body that I know when I eat something bad, I'm like, man, I ate something.

I'm off eating. My stomach feels offering a brain fog. And I've heard from my friends, too. I mean, you know, I'm traveling with a couple of my friends from hardened soil here.

And, you know, one of the guys I'd eat a sandwich in the airport and he did it kind of sheepishly I a dog. Where'd you go? It's like I ate a sandwich. I was like, why did you do that? I didn't want to eat in front of me, did you? And he's like, yeah, the sandwich shaming.

Yeah, shame on you. And then he was like, you know what? I don't feel good. He was farting all last night and stuff.

And so, you know, you can tell, but once you get your body kind of refined, that makes it so much easier to make behavioral change because, you know, like I actually saw what it felt like to feel really good, to sleep well, to wake up clearheaded, to have energy, to like do want to work out and be like, you know, I could go work out again or like do a workout and then play with your kids or like proper human libido or not being depressed or anxious or, you know, all those things.

That's what makes life worth living is like training.

Right. It's like if you keep sticking your hand inside it, I don't know, a raccoon cage or something and it bites your hand, you're going to speak in your language.

He perked up so your job at Raccoon Cage. But I mean, I think you guys get away with drink and a lot of people drink all the time.

Don't even understand how good you could be when you don't drink. And I hear these people all the time when they cut things out of the diet.

I never knew I could feel this good. I never knew I could feel as good as I felt when I cut bread out of my diet. I never knew how good I was going to feel when I cut all these plans on my diet.

When I cut kale out of my diet, I somebody emailed me that the other day. I never knew how good my gut, you know, my stomach could feel until I cut kale out of my diet, sort of like mysteriously bloated, seriously bloated.

You know, I'm always trying to have it. Like I mean, I'll tell you, one of the best things about being eating a Carnivore diet is you don't have to worry about farting because it's really socially awkward and uncomfortable, you know, like talking.

I mean, if you think a Carnivore diet is hard on dating, try being a vegan.

Because I was that to I was a raw vegan for seven months about. Oh, you did that. I was a raw vegan for seven months. Oh, sure. I lost an experiment.

I lost 25 pounds of muscle mass and all the people I hung out with were just like, man, you have the worst farts.

Now, where were you doing this so bad? Why was I doing it to win? Oh, like thirteen years ago, huh? Long time ago. So you'd like to do a lot of guinea pig? I love it now, I'm kind of annoyed by this question, but I have to ask you, when you're traveling, how are you how are you rigging up for your meals or it's just so simple because you're eating such simple things.

It's not hard to get it. It's super simple.

So we took I think that that's one of the reasons the dessicated stuff is super helpful. Right. So we took the dessicated stuff on the plane. If you want to travel with liver and spleen or pancreas and it's hard to get which I have done.

Yeah, but it's hard to know.

We went to the co-op here in Bozeman and I was like, do you guys have any spleen there? Like, no. What about pancreas? No ubani liver. We might have a little liberals. I, I got one.

They got an ad for a cat psychologist hanging up in that place and I said maybe I should you come in the door is like these, you know those old signs you like tear off a tab.

Cat's like how long does it take to get a shrink for your cat.

I had to quit going into that store, but they had good meat I'm sure they had given me.

Maybe you can use the meat. I have I. That's right. Well, I'm waiting for the invite to dinner at Steve's house. I didn't get it yet. So that's that's about that's about all I got right now.

But yeah, I mean, it's super simple. So I think for travel and I think, OK, what do I need to eat. I want to bring some suet. So I packed a little like a little glass container. I brought some kidney fat who brings kidney out of a plane. Except this guy. I brought some kidney fat, I brought some meat and I forgot the liver. So I went to the store. I got some liver and yeah, I brought some salt on the plane and I'm good.

And so I didn't finish telling you guys what I eat in a day because there's one other thing. I was dragging it out. I know. It's so interesting.

So for the first year and a half, I did it. I had no carbs. Right? No carbs. It was all keto, low carb. And then I started thinking about this a little more and I thought, you know what? I think our ancestors would have had fruit occasionally, seasonally. I know that the hard's are really treasure hunt, honey. I got really interested in hunting specifically. And there's really interesting data on honey being used to treat, periodontitis and gingivitis.

Honey is actually good for dental health in the true form, which makes sense.

It's a Whole Foods, all kinds of compounds in there.

And I was living in San Diego and I thought, you know, I feel a little cold.

Sometimes I'm going to reincorporate honey back in my diet and see how I feel. And of course, the, you know, part of me is like, I can't do that is it's not me stupid to be done. Yeah, it's not a plan. And if vegans won't eat it, then I can eat it. Yeah, that's the way I think about it. So I incorporated honey back in my diet and I really like it. So a lot of days I'll incorporate honey in my diet and that's great man.

That makes the whole thing seem a lot more appealing to me.

And that's why I want you guys to read that chapter in the book about the Tier one Carnivore diet, where I say, hey, it's not about just eating meat, it's about eating meat and organs, but also knowing which parts of the plant are less toxic. And there's a whole section of a Carnivore ish diet in there right now. Eat meat and organs and then you can eat honey and then like things like avocado and berries and squash.

These are fruit. I think the fruit is the least toxic part of a plan. A plan is trying to get you to eat it most of the time. And so I think that, generally speaking, fruit has been seasonally in our diets and so berries. So when I thought about this, OK, this is a version of an animal based diet. This is really how I want people to think about a carnivore ish diet, an animal based diet.

And we're going to make a cookbook that's based on a carnivorous diet next year with the same publisher.

And it's the idea like, hey, eat animal meat and organs as a center, your diet.

And then you can also have you can have carbohydrates if you want to, but eat it from the least toxic plant sources. Get rid of the kale and we can talk about why and get rid of the seeds.

But if you want to do things like avocado or squash or berries or an apple or seasonal fruit, those are probably really fine for you. And that, I think, opens up the doors for a lot of people to to do this type of a diet. And it's the the goal is not to be dogmatic. The goal is to help people get back to living.

Well, are you doing honey right now? I do.

How much I do about do about 100 to 150 grams of honey a day, which is what's a ball?

You saw a tablespoon is fifteen grams. So it's about seven to ten tablespoons a day.

No milk. No, I don't do milk. I don't do dairy. Now a lot of people have trouble with their genealogically and I think our ancestors wouldn't have eaten a ton of milk. I know the Masais milk, but if you can tolerate milk, it's an animal food. It's great. But I have trouble with casein and way. I had eczema really bad, which is the reason that I did a carnivore diet in the first place. You know, there's no eczema.

It's like bumpy and all eczema. Yeah, yeah.

But my eczema, we went away completely when I did a Kanawa diet and I tried everything else. I tried keto and paleo and all this other stuff and it couldn't it didn't fix it.

So that was the reason I did it. But dairy always triggers my eczema, so I don't do it.

OK, do you think if you're given recommendations to people, do you think that. Like distilled down, is your message more that you need to people need to add? To their diet or they needed to take away from their diet. I think if you had to do one thing, it would be to simplify. And the one thing, the first thing.

So if you want to make a hierarchy.

Right, if people want if I if I were going to recommend people do one thing, it's get rid of those vegetable oils. And this hasn't been the total focus of our conversation. Another question I had.

So I think that if you're going to do one thing, it would be get rid of those vegetable oils. And they're in a lot of things. Right. So this is corn, canola, safflower, sunflower, soybean oils. They're in a lot of foods. If you eliminate those from your diet and change nothing else, I think a lot of people will get to a better place in health. Now, I hope people won't stop there. I hope they will then add in animal meat and organs.

And then I hope they will think about the plants they're eating. And if they can get rid of the most toxic plants, there's like three steps.

But that's the first step in. The first step is just simplify and get rid of the processed foods which are really for those oils and stop cooking with those oils.

And part of that, for a lot of people, is also getting the best quality meat they can to, you know, because a lot of the meat that's fed corn and soy, these are not species appropriate diet and it can accumulate.

It's what we know about things like pigs is if you feed pigs, corn and soy, their fat is going to be enriched in linoleic acid.

And so that's probably a problem for a lot of people, too. But first thing, cut out those vegetable oils and everything with them in it.

That's higher than cutting out sugar. It is. Now, I'm not saying I want people to keep eating sugar, but I think you I think I think that the single greatest driver.

Of chronic disease and metabolic dysfunction in humans is excess linoleic acid, and you can actually look at this, there's a fascinating set of graphs out there. You can look at human consumption of sugar and grains and you can look at the rates of obesity and the rates of diabetes and the rates of chronic disease.

And though, if you look at those graphics, you can look at it from 1960 to 1997, our consumption of grains and sugar went up and so did our consumption of vegetable oil massively. And then around and rates of diabetes and obesity and chronic disease went up to but around 1997. Between now and 1997, rates of grain consumption and sugar have actually gone down. But vegetable oil has continued to rise and we are still getting much fatter, much sicker, much more diabetic and much worse from an autoimmune perspective.

So, again, this is just all correlational sort of inference. But what you see here is like, huh, this is interesting. And I think, yeah, sugar is not a great thing for humans at all. And honey actually looks to behave differently than sugar in humans.

But if you had to do one thing, it would be vegetable oils. My opinion. No shit.

Yeah. Real quick, explain me, what's the problem with with, if you like, what's the problem with frying meat? Like if the meat's OK in the oils, OK. What happens when you get super hot and cook one in the other. Right.

So now I think if you're going to cook meat in oil, you want to do it in animal fat.

All right. Just tell you, one of my new favorites, we've had it like three times in the last 10 days, a braised a bunch of wild turkey thighs and legs. And then I've got a jar Brodies Beargrease barrel oil from last fall. And I've been just frying that.

It's funny if I find braised turkey meat in oil embargo oil.

Yeah, it's funny because if I did it in like vegetable oil or peanut oil, I'd be like real careful about, like taking the meat out and sort of like straining it or draining or whatever.

But when I do in that Beargrease, I'm just like, man, I hope it soaks it up so that me and the kids are eating, you know, because it's good.

It is good. And so I got Keeks playing a little bit better.

I mean, the same way that you say, like you like to crisp up your oh, I didn't know if you meant your drop.

Like you're dropping a drumstick. Like frying a drumstick. No, like like picked braised meat and then you fry it and then put it on something.

Yeah. Yeah. And what are you getting. Let me look up the word again. You're getting all messed up on. Lippitt peroxided, yeah. OK, break that down for me. So with very bad news, if maybe, maybe not.

So you heat it up and something bad happens here but something bad happens now. Humans are probably been dealing with this for a long, long time. We know that when we heat foods, there are compounds produced. When we heat foods in dry heat at high temperatures, there are lots of things produced that our body has to kind of detoxify.

Now, a lot of people point to meat and say, oh, you shouldn't eat meat that's charred or grilled because of these compounds. And some of these are polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons and heterocyclic amines.

Now, the body has a way to deal with these, but the question is just how much can we detoxify and how are we putting a stress on the body?

I think that most people, if they're healthy and have enough nutrients from good animal meat and organs, can make enough glutathione, which is our endogenous antioxidant. It's how it's part of how our body deals with this to detoxify these compounds. But as the astronaut, I just thought, what if I decrease them as low as possible in my diet? Do I feel better? Do my labs change? That's why I do it. I just want to experiment and see, like, what's the end, you know, how do we get people there?

The same kind of things are happen when you cook food. I mean, when you cook plant. So coffee has heterocyclic amines as well. And so there's a lot, you know, even if you cook bread and you brown bread or you toast bread, there are things like Mallyon products, advanced glycation end product. So cooking food creates things that the body has to detoxify. We probably have the ability to do it somewhat.

You just want to overload the system, OK? And I think that your underlying health probably determines how well you're able to detoxify that.

So in my mind, I thought, well, what if I just give don't give my body any of that or the smallest amount possible? And that's kind of the experiment I'm doing. I'll agree.

Cooking a rib eye and tallow is delicious when you get that crust on it. What you're talking about there sounds delicious. Crispy things are delicious. And if you're going to cook in oil, cook animal fat to not cook and vegetable oil, please.

When you cook fat, you get what are called lipid peroxides. These are essentially free radicals formed by lipids. So lipid is a fat molecule. And what we're talking about here now are electrons and we're talking about unpaired electrons. And these molecules are reactive. They can move around the human body and cause damage. And so your body has to detoxify them. So I think it's just for me, it was the experiment. How do I get the least amount of these possible?

Yeah.

And then can I see in my blood work that things like lipid peroxides change or other markers of oxidative stress, you know, esoteric markers I use in medicine like eight hydroxy to deoxy Guana, which is a marker of DNA damage, or Malindi aldehyde, all that kind of stuff. So that's why I do it now. If somebody came to me and said, am I eating too much of these, I'd say, well, let's just check some blood work.

We can see, you know, we can look at your oxidative stress. I can look at how much glutathione you've got and how much of it's oxidise versus reduce. So I could tell you, you know, like, oh, maybe you want to stop doing that as much or maybe just needs more of the nutrients that are going to allow your body detoxify stuff.

But that's why I do it. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah. And I'm really not trying to be a party pooper. You know, talk about, like, the most boring way to eat food. I just think about it medically to. Remember earlier we talk about objective realities. Yeah, OK, I imagine that in the medical community, it's possible to draw someone's blood.

And then look at the blood, do the blood work on someone, and there probably is, there's probably like an academic consensus. About what? The markers are there, whether that's a healthy person or not, is that true or not true generally? Is there something still to argue about?

There are a few things to argue about, but 98 percent of it is like, yeah, we can look at inflammatory markers. We can look at markers of oxidation, lipid peroxide, all that kind of stuff.

Yes. OK, yeah. So if we drew yours. Yeah, let's say I drew yours and I took it and just showed I drew your blood and had your blood work drawn up and I took it and showed it to just a random doctor coming down the road.

Yeah. I'd be like, hey man what what's up. What do you think when you look at this. Right.

What would they be able to tell me?

Or they say, man, oh, that's really surprising to see such low or such high, this and that.

They would just say that guy looks really healthy for the most part, except for one thing.

And we can get into that if you want. Like, well, I mean, what is the one thing? The one thing is LDL cholesterol, which is a whole rabbit hole to go down.

So but that would pop out to them. That would pop out to them for sure. You have a lot of it.

I have a lot of LDL in my body. I do. I do. And everybody's been told that LDL is bad for you. But there's a whole chapter in my book kind of breaking down that myth and talking about how the lipid hypothesis is really wrong, in my opinion, and widely challenged. So we can go down this route.

They would see that whether or not they believe, yeah, the guy looks great. Yeah. If you don't show my LDL, if you if you just cover up LDL level, get everything you like while there's no inflammation, his kidneys look fine, his liver looks fine. He's got plenty of vitamin markers. He's got his vitamin D is high. Mannis testosterones high. Everything's good.

What am I what am I looking at this guy like how am I looking at here?

And then shown the LDL and they kind of like fall out of their chair and they'd say what? They say he's going to die. He's going to he's going to die. I need to see that. Yeah. Is that right? Yeah. I say he needs meds. Yeah, absolutely. And I can tell you the story. It's a pretty interesting story, but you don't need one. I definitely don't think so. When my dad so I'm 43, when my dad was 43, he had a heart attack.

So I have a primary relative who had an early onset coronary artery disease. Right.

I've had a high, quote, LDL, low density lipoprotein, which is colloquially known as bad cholesterol, which is totally the wrong track.

Yeah, yeah. I've had a high LDL for probably three plus years. I mean, the whole time I've been doing a carnivore diet, my LDL has been over two hundred and the last one I got was very high.

And so we can go down rabbit holes. This is a very complex discussion about why LDL goes up and down. It probably has to do with ratios of saturated fat, unsaturated fat in the human body. And that goes back to previous discussions about whether saturated fat is actually bad for humans. I don't believe it is at all. It's part of something we've been eating forever. But if you just pause there in my story or I'll tell you the rest of the story.

So I've had a high LDL for over two years, and because it was so high, I thought, oh, this is a great opportunity to illustrate something.

So I had what's called a coronary artery calcium score. They do a CT scan of your heart and they look for calcium in your arteries, which is calcified black.

Not a perfect test, but pretty good on your teeth. Yes, exceptionally, except it can end up in the heart arteries.

And this is sort of telling you you have atherosclerosis. This is the stuff people worry about, the plaque that ruptures in the arteries is this plaque, right?

So I have zero zero.

And so in talking to cardiologists and in talking to cardiac radiologists, if you showed them my blood work, they would say, oh, yeah, that guy has a family history and his dad had a heart attack at his age and his LDL. Right now my LDL is five hundred and thirty four milligrams per deciliter. Most doctors want to see it under a hundred. So I'm like superstar and LDL. I'm like massively high. And they would say, oh, yeah, that guy is going to have plaque.

I have zero plaque. And there are so many stories like mine about this.

Now, you can say it's not a perfect it's not a perfect test, but it's pretty darn sensitive for that kind of plaque.

And I have a primary relative had a heart attack in my age. Now I'll just keep getting them and showing people that it's zero. But it challenges the idea that LDL cholesterol equals heart attacks.

And I challenge this broadly in the book.

This is such a big misunderstanding. And it's a lot of the reason that vegetable oils get recommended to us is healthy because vegetable oils, lower LDL saturated fat raises LDL.

And yet what do we know about vegetable oils? We know they're very unhealthy for people. And what do we know about saturated fat?

Well, it's pretty darn healthy for people. There's a really famous trial called the Minnesota Coronary Experiment.

Which was done in 1968 to 1973, and they took I think it was over 9000 people, this is a randomized blinded study. It's interventional study. This is not epidemiology. They took over 9000 people in Minnesota and they put half of them on high saturated fat diets or higher saturated fat and another half on higher polyunsaturated fat and vegetable oil. And that trial went five years.

And at the end of the trial, the people who had more polyunsaturated fat had higher rates of death from cancer, heart disease and overall all cause mortality. They clearly died more of all sorts of badness when they had more polyunsaturated fat.

It's a huge study. It's very well done. It's sort of like cut and dry vegetable oils are horrible for humans. And these are the oils that are cardiologists will tell us to eat because they lower LDL. And our framework for cardiovascular health is entirely LDL centric, totally LDL centric. If it raises LDL, it's bad.

If it lowers LDL, it's good, except if you actually dig into the medical literature and this gets to be a little esoteric and you look at this, what you find is that when you give someone polyunsaturated fats, like linoleic acid, like vegetable oils, their LDL goes down, but they're oxidised, LDL goes up.

And another marker called LPI, the delay, which is a marker for oxidation and LDL also goes up. What we now know is that it's not so much about the LDL that you have.

It's about how much of that is suffering oxidation. There's that word again. So oxidation, that's the kind of stuff I'm worried about with lipid peroxides and free radicals and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons is oxidative stress. We're talking about the movement of electrons.

So you really don't want your LDL to be oxidized. And when you give someone vegetable oil, more LDL gets oxidized. The overall amount of LDL goes down, but more LDL gets oxidized. So this is one of the sort of last or it's just not even the last one.

It's just a very widely held belief that needs to die because it's just wrong and it's hurting people. And in the book, I kind of break this down. There's lots of other studies that show that more LDL does not always equal more coronary artery disease. And it's not the fact that LDL just goes in your arteries and causes plaque. It doesn't make any sense because LDL, low density lipoprotein is a boat in your body. It's like a bus. It moves things around the body.

It's valuable for humans.

It moves steroid backbone molecules to your testicles, to the ovaries, to the adrenal glands, to your brain to make all the hormones that make us human beings. We need this molecule. LDL and HDL, its counterpart also play a role in the immune response. If you talk about kids who don't have enough LDL, they get sick way more often. There's a genetic condition with a mutation in the enzyme that makes cholesterol. Now, cholesterol is a steroid backbone molecule that gets packaged into the LDL particle.

LDL is a bus that carries triglycerides, which are fat molecules and cholesterol.

And so LDL and cholesterol are sort of synonymous colloquially. But that's not really the correct terminology. Cholesterol is a steroid backbone molecule that gets made by our body and packaged into LDL. There's a genetic condition called Smith leanly opposite syndrome in which kids can't make or humans can't make LDL or they can't make cholesterol, which results in very low levels of LDL. A lot of these kids die in utero and those that are born have pretty seriously bad medical conditions.

They have a lot of times mental retardation. They have recurring infections in the way they are treated is they are given egg yolks. They are given lots and lots of egg yolks, which are super rich and cholesterol.

So we give kids back cholesterol and they do better when they can't make it.

And yet we are told by the medical establishment that this molecule, this LDL cholesterol molecule or cholesterol in general are trying to kill us.

And it kind of goes back to this theme that we've been talking about throughout this podcast. Why would something that has been an essential part of our evolution suddenly be bad for us, whether it's eating meat and organs or whether it's a molecule that's essential to human health?

Why would that be bad for us? We have to rethink these paradigms.

But so much of medicine moves so slowly. It's like the Titanic. You just can't change these paradigms.

They're just so bent on it. But that's why do the work I do. LDL is not the enemy. The enemy is the underlying metabolic dysfunction and or it's synonymous with insulin resistance or prediabetes that really lights the LDL on fire.

But it didn't cause the blaze. So at a very broad strokes level, I ask people to think about it like this.

Imagine LDL like wood in your garage. You're not going to get spontaneous combustion of that. Would you have that? A spark? And that spark is underlying metabolic dysfunction without a spark that LDL is actually just valuable because you can build a house out of it. You could build a house or a cabin or you could build a treehouse for your kids out of that wood in your garage. But if you get gasoline there and you light a fire that that was going to go up.

So because LDL is involved in a plaque doesn't mean that LDL caused the plaque.

It's the spark. And so what is the spark? The spark is metabolic dysfunction. How does metabolic dysfunction come about?

Linoleic acid and vegetable oils?

Explain to me as though I'm.

Five years old. Catalysis Davido diet, so this is a completely different we're going off topic. Oh, no. Yeah, we're going. We're going. Yeah, OK, so be mindful of where we're at, what we were we got to get.

OK, so if I walk out of here. Oh no, there's a pause because I thought we were I thought that felt like a great summation. I just, I just like maybe asked questions.

OK, no, I never knew any of that stuff. He's over here shaking his head like, you know, like, yeah, I know. I love it. It's just I'm going to have to listen to this podcast again to because there's just a lot of words that, you know, this is the first time I've heard that.

Right. Right. So let me know if you want to clarify them. And I'll do my best. I think we can move on. OK. I want to talk about. Yeah, we got a little checklist of stuff. We got really, really put one down and took it away. Oh, no, it's back again. What do I take away?

Oh, no, it's still there. Sorry. OK, ketosis like a five. OK, like I'm five.

We hear a lot these days about the Kaido diet going into. Like going into ketosis sounds like a bad thing, would like something bad's happening to you. Traditionally, people have thought about ketosis is a bad thing, but I don't think it is at all. I think it's our bodies very precisely. Evolved defense mechanism against starvation.

It's basically how your body uses stored fat as fuel. So you have a couple of gas tanks in your body. You're like a car with two gas tanks. One gas tank is called glycogen. It's in your liver and your muscles and the other gas tank is called fat.

And generally speaking, if humans are fat, they can survive a long winter.

You got stored fat. We don't want to be extra fat, but we've all got a couple of pounds, many pounds of fat in our body. So if we don't eat or we don't have a successful hunt, we can turn that into fuel capacities for one second.

Is it true that the fat people stay warm better? Seems like it, I think, thermodynamically. Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, just from a I mean, whenever I've been out surfing in the ocean and there's fat guys out there, there often way, way, way warmer than I am. OK, go on.

I mean, it's like seal blubber, right? Like it's insulated. Yeah. Because like people are always like, oh yeah, you're cold because you're skinny as I am. I am cold. And so soon as you get cold because of their thyroid doesn't work.

But, you know, all things being equal, you know, if we have equivalent thyroid function and equivalent baseline metabolism, which is how you generate heat because your body can generate its own heat with brown fat, things like that, mitochondrial uncoupling the you can you know, if you put on a bunch of layers, you would be warmer, you know. Hold on.

Do you understand where mitochondrial uncoupling is? No, but I'm saying if I put on a few layers, I'll be warmer, you know, and if you put on a neoprene suit, you'll be warmer. So that's what it's doing. It's just like insulation. OK, now I'll get back into the Ketel.

So Keino, you've got to energy ones in your muscle livres, ones in your fat, ones in your fat.

And the way that you access your fat is through ketones. So in order to pull that fuel and burn it by the rest of your body, you turn that fat into ketones. OK, so you can do something called beta oxidation. And the way that you move that fat around your body is in ketones. It's one way that it happens. So ketones are just an alternative fuel that your body uses when you don't have enough carbohydrates or when you're starving in general.

And that's essentially how it happens. You use that fat, you turn it in ketones, those ketones move around the body and they get turned back into substrate that your body can use to burn.

And the goal being to get rid of the fat, not necessarily to get rid of. I mean, the goal of ketogenic diet is, yes, to get rid of the fat, but you can get rid of fat without being ketogenic.

So what is the goal? Ketogenic diet were originally developed for kids with seizures because they really. Yeah, because they realised medically that's why they were developed. Humans have always been in ketosis.

If you're out hunting and you don't have it, you don't eat anything for 24 hours or 72 hours, you're going into ketosis because your body's going to be that mean.

Everybody that fast goes, goes it goes into ketosis.

Yeah. And our ancestors definitely had periods where they didn't have any substantial meaning.

You're tapping into body fat, you're tapping into body fat, and it's not you can also eat. But if you don't get enough calories because your body has it's like you have a car, that car needs a certain amount of energy to run every day. The light in the studio, you have to put energy into those lights. You put energy into this brain, these eyeballs, everything in your body needs energy.

So if you only eat 300 calories a day, how does your body make up the difference?

It makes up the difference by pulling it from fat once it pulls out of glycogen. The first gas tank your body uses as glycogen, generally speaking, and then it goes into fat once you exhaust the glycogen. So for most people, it takes about 24 hours to exhaust the glycogen and then your body switches over to burning fat and making it in ketones.

Some people have less the glycogen, but if you don't eat carbohydrates, your body doesn't really make as much glycogen. That's a broad strokes statement because it's not entirely true. But in broad strokes, that's what we're talking about, that you have less stored carbohydrate.

When you are in ketosis on that, then it puts you into ketosis quicker, quicker, or you stay in ketosis long term, because generally speaking, we have thought about ketosis as starvation or not eating. But you can eat food and still be in ketosis if you don't eat carbohydrates, depending on the ratio of protein and fat. If you eat too much protein, you won't be in ketosis because your body can turn protein into glucose.

Well, right. But if you eat a lot of fat and a small amount of protein or a Motoman or protein, you can get into ketosis.

Now, what we know is, is there a benefit? Is there a benefit to being an catalysis besides the fact, besides the fact that you're diminishing fat, like what are you really getting from it?

There are absolutely benefits to being in ketosis, but that doesn't mean you should be in it all the time. So it's kind of this evolutionary switch we certainly would have had occasionally at a broad level. Things change in your genetics. Different genes get turned on and off when you're in ketosis because these ketone molecules, there are two major ketone molecules in your body. These ketone molecules affect which genes get turned on and off. And you'll hear people talk about this as, quote, cellular housecleaning.

And so what your body does is autophagy. And if you guys have heard that word, cellular housecleaning, it means eating yourself so it cleans up old dead kind of broken proteins and cells.

When you're in that autophagy state and when you are eating less carbohydrates or when you are fasting is when your body kind of goes toward autophagy. It's a balance between building and tearing down.

Is that people talk all the time about doing a cleanse. Yes and no. Was it clean and what? Well, there's a lot of stuff to clean. I mean, there are there's a lot of cellular components for humans to clean.

And we need to do this occasionally in your body has mechanisms, the kind of clean house, just like your house gets dirty, whether you have kids or not.

If you have kids, you know, your house just gets dirty by itself because of the kids.

And even if you don't have kids, your house still gets dirty. This is entropy. Things break. They kind of go wrong. Your body needs time to do this cellular housecleaning. And this happens when you are fasting or when you can enable your body to do it when you have a caloric deficit.

So, like I said, if you have if you have a baseline requirement for 2500 calories a day or two thousand calories a day and you only eat 800, your body is going to make up the rest by burning glycogen or by burning stored fat. And when you are in that state, when you were in a calorically deficient state, your body does this housecleaning state, this autophagy that's been associated with a lot of good things in humans, a lot of better outcomes in all kinds of things.

So it's helpful, but you can overuse it.

It's something we should cycle in and out of and it doesn't have to be complex. This is the way it always would have been.

You don't get an animal every day you go hunting. Our ancestors did neither. There were times they were fasting. They were times they had caloric deficits and they were times they feasted and they had caloric excess. It's built into our physiology.

The problem in 2020 is that we eat every day. A lot of people eat every day and have caloric excess every single day.

They never do time restricted feeding.

Remember earlier when I was talking about I was talking about my diet and I eat two meals a day. I have a time restricted feeding window. That's just something I leverage most days where I eat breakfast in a late lunch and then I'll fast about six hours every day and I wake up in ketosis, even though I'm eating honey. Right. So even though I'm getting 100 to 150 grams of carbohydrates, I'm using my liver glycogen.

My body's using stored fat to make ketones. But ketones are beneficial for humans and that they change things and it's valuable. But it shouldn't I don't think should happen all the time. And so it should be cyclic.

And so the ketogenic diet is leveraging a lot of these ideas. But you don't have to be Kaito to get into ketosis. You can eat carbohydrates and just fast, or you can eat carbohydrates and just do a calorie restricted diet on some days.

You know, that make sense. Yeah. So but it is valuable, I think, for humans to go into that state of caloric deficiency one way or another. Lakita diet just makes it long term for people because they don't eat carbs. I think there are downsides to that as well.

And we can talk about those if you want.

Do you believe or do we use the term fad diet? I mean, not for a Carnivore diet, I've heard the term, but I I had a friend one time that was on a diet where you were on a diet six days a week and then you had a cheat day. Right. OK. And I remember when every dude that lived in certain towns where I hang out like friends, that everyone, like every dude in Miles City was on the Atkins diet.

But they're not now. OK, you're about like the keto diet, and I'm assuming that soon people will not. Beyond the keto diet, just because the ebb and flow of diets like where does the Carnivore diet fit into this, like will it have does it have a life expectancy? I hope not, and I hope that thinking outside of the box a little bit, not making a dogmatic. Will will give it that that that absence or will accept it from a life expectancy.

It's more of a lifestyle and I hope I've done a decent job of helping people understand that it's it's just the same asking the question, what of our ancestors do and how do we to thrive?

It's a lifestyle. It's not this diet or that diet. It's like, what are the foods that nourish us?

What are the least toxic plants? How do we feel as good as we can as humans? That's my idea with a carnivore. You got to call it something, right? Yeah. I wish, you know, you could call it the Carnivore lifestyle, but people won't understand what it was. But that's the way I think about it.

It's just asking questions as a physician, as an outdoorsman, as somebody who likes to go run in the mountains and hunt, how do I get to do these things as well as I can? How do I help my patients, my clients and what our ancestors do? Those are the questions that are most interesting to me. So I don't want it to have that. And I certainly didn't make it up. I mean, I think our ancestors have been eating this way for a long time.

And there's plenty of tribes. There's an Amazonian tribe called the Kiwi Minnow who eat a lot of this way. They eat animal mean organs and fruit when it's seasonal. Indigenous people don't eat vegetables like we think they do.

They kind of get that stems, roots, seeds and leaves, especially the stems, leaves and seeds are not really good human food. They're not very calorically dense.

A lot of the time. Got a lot of toxins. So that's the idea there. So it's not intended to be a fad diet. And I've never been a super fan of that idea either because it doesn't work in mythology.

I saw that they get abused. Yeah, yeah.

Because, look, I mean, a lot of the a lot of the people who are finding benefits with the carnivore, they spend a day at Cheesecake Factory, they're finding benefits from an auto immune perspective. And that's what's so interesting to me about it. A lot of the diseases we see in Western society are today are autoimmune lupus showgrounds, you know, autoimmune thyroiditis, all this kind of stuff. I mean, eczema like I had.

These are autoimmune diseases. Our immune system is overactive. And there's something going on here. And the immune system has a longer memory than seven days. We know this with things like celiac disease or gluten intolerance.

So if you really want your immune system to calm down, you've got to keep. You got to prevent. You know, exposing it to foods that are going to trigger it every seven days, a lot of people think about diets and food just from a weight loss perspective. And that's why I think a carnivore diet is different.

We're thinking about things in terms of human health and how we can help people live the most quality lives.

Weight loss is secondary, but Atkins was all about weight loss. All these diets are about weight loss, weight loss and how you look at a human. I'm more interested in how. Yeah, that's a good point, man.

I forgot about that. It was like it wasn't like optimal performance. It was aesthetic.

Right. Aesthetic.

I'm more interested in how you feel, how you how you how your mood is, how well you think, how poised you are, how emotionally calm you are with your kids and your wife or your husband or your partner, you know, like quality of life.

And I think that if you do that, you'll look good, too. That's like a bonus. But I'm not going to sacrifice nutrition and optimal human health at the expense of somebody looking good.

Mm hmm.

Yeah, Weight Watchers, probably the most famous, the most famous diet ever. And it's right in its name. Right.

And that's exactly what it's focused on. It's focused on aesthetics and weight loss.

That G-day diet was that way, too, right. No attention to human health. Was that called?

I don't know what it was. It called the demo.

I think a lot of them have that Tim Ferriss had a cheat day. I know. And he talked about his weight.

But Paleo sounds pretty similar to this, right?

I mean, they're always talking about eating with Ancestors' eight, right? They're a big difference. There is a big difference.

It asks the same questions. It just answers the question differently. It's saying, what did our ancestors eat? And actually, you know, what's funny is I had some good friends with Rob Wolf who wrote The Paleo solution, and Lauren Gordon, who wrote the paleo diet. I've had him both on my podcast.

And I think as we start to think about this more, I love that question. How do our ancestors eat?

I just have a different answer. And my answer says leafy greens and seeds hate you and don't want to be eaten.

Kale doesn't love you back. You know, in a paleo diet, they're like your leafy greens. And I'm like, no leafy greens, spinach and kale. Hey, you.

They don't want to get eaten. Don't eat those foods. So as much as you could call it the Carnivore diet, you can also call me the anti broccoli crusader. Like that's what's different about it. You know, it's like I just want people to understand we draw the ideas a little different. We ask the same questions. They're valuable questions, I think, but we just answer them differently based on anthropology and ethnography and biomedical science and say, why are we eating kale in the first place?

Let me give you sense. It is interesting, man. When you go into a garden and you're like, you know, you grow tomatoes, come as a member of the Nightshade family, dude that is full of shit that'll kill you.

You absolutely. If you eat this one, it's a certain way. But no, you look at the animal kingdom. I mean, you can point to that puffer fish liver.

But generally, like my kids, like, is that bird edible?

And like, listen, man, all birds are edible. They're just edible. Like, they might not taste good, but they're edible. Maybe like that animal edible. Yes.

Yes. That's exactly what we talked about earlier.

Just is, you know, there are a few rare exceptions. That frog in the Amazon.

Yeah, they're the ones. Yeah. The ones we know about. Right. Yeah. And the puffer fish. But ninety nine point ninety nine percent of animals are edible. You can't say that about plants. Right. You just can't.

And all the unique nutrients like any vertebrate on the lake. Can I eat that. You can eat that. Yeah.

Even I'm telling you, like if you go you can eat it. And yet if you and I walk into the woods and we start eating swaths of plants, we're going to be we're going to be pooping our pants before we get back to the trail.

We get excited about the ones that don't mess. Yeah, yeah. Like meat. I could eat this.

The plants, it's like a very small proportion that we like in the woods. In the woods. You point out the ones you like. You are sure you can eat it.

Yeah. It's not going to be good for you. It's mushroom is not going to kill you. Yeah. Yeah. You mean this one won't kill me, sweet man. You see, there's such a good point, right. Anything that's like still and growing on the ground, you got to be worried about it. You have to have almost a doctor to know if you can eat or not. Yeah. But if it runs or flies, good to go.

Like oh yeah. Like berries.

Kids like this one man. I don't know, they're not I don't know if they're not, but that one I know is actually safe. That stands out as safe. And that's, that's, that isn't, that's so interesting. It just makes so much sense right now.

It's a funny point man. The more you think about it with the plant toxins.

Can you touch on Seychelle? I read that word or city satiety. There's two ways to pronounce it.

Making that word was in the book a lot, talking about how our current diet basically you just never get full.

Oh, yeah, yeah. This is super interesting. And everybody pronounce that word. I say satiety. Yeah.

Like comes from insatiable. Right. Satiated Exactly.

So there are a couple of reasons that our current diet is not satiating, but I've had a lot of friends anecdotally tell me they try plant based diet and they're like, I'm always frickin hungry and they try and animal base I like. Wow, I felt awful for the first time in so long, I'm thinking.

Yeah, right. So satiety is complex. It's complex physiology in the human brain.

But, you know, just going back to what we were talking about with linoleic acid, there's really good evidence that linoleic acid makes us hungry. There's molecular mechanisms in the brain. By which linoleic acid triggers hunger and saturated fat, which is found in animals, triggers satiety, and we don't have to get into why that works.

But in the hypothalamus, which is part of that satiety center in the brain, these two fatty acids affect our cells and our mitochondria differently. So that's the first thing is that vegetable oils make you hungry. They are sabotaging your satiety. We talked a little about sugar processed foods. Absolutely make you hungry. And I think there is a nutrient density sensing in the human body.

If you are not getting the nutrients found in meat and liver, all those magical nutrients, quote unquote that I talked about earlier, COLENE, carnitine, carnitine, you are not going to be satiated because your body's like I am deficient in something and it knows it.

You can't tell you don't have like your computer chip like a diagnostic in your car, like I'm deficient in riboflavin. I should go eat some liver.

Right. But your cravings. But you get cravings and then they go out of whack when you're pregnant and it winds up being the thing everybody talks about. Exactly.

And you only can crave things you've had. So people say, well, why don't I crave liver? Well, when was that on your liver? I like you.

All you know is that you crave something. And that's so satiety is huge. And I think that I I've never liked weight loss strategies that put people in a mental prison. You're never going to be able to calorie restrict for your whole life. Calorie restricting and starving yourself is a fantastic way to lose weight.

It's also a fantastic way to have your life suck really bad. And like, why are you living life if it's so miserable and your body will find a way, you will never stay in calorie prison your whole life unless you are super motivated. And what's the point of living in that way?

So that's why dietary constructions like this are fascinating to me that actually emphasize nutrient density and ancestrally consistent diet.

And they create satiety without making us feel like we are depriving ourselves and you don't even have to have caloric deficit.

So it's a huge topic and I think that you can starve yourself, but it's not going to work long term.

I so appreciate that just because I think the mindset of focusing on the outward appearance of someone's body and being calorie restricted has just led to so much, I don't know, so much pain, to say the least, for both men and women.

Yeah, but traditionally we think about women. You know, I have a younger sister. And when she was growing up, you know, I, I see it because I have younger sister, like, there's so much body image. I know men experience it too, but for women it's especially destructive. You know, it's really hard and it's the same kind of idea.

And, you know, while we're on the topic, you know, a lot of women don't think about red meat and organs as food because they're afraid of making them fat.

But I really believe strongly that this is a game changer for women as well, because it's like this is the food your body is craving.

And I talk about this in a study in the book, we can look at things like evoked response potentials in the brain. This is one of the coolest parts of the book.

And you can show.

Vegetarians and vegans and omnivores, pictures of meat, and you can look it with an EEG electroencephalogram, you can look at we can look at the way different parts of the brain fire and you can look at deeper regions of the brain, like the brainstem, kind of these lizard brain parts or, you know, in Cephalon, parts like more ancestral or more, I should say, more ancient parts of the brain. And you can look at the neocortex like the more recent parts of the brain.

And when you show a vegetarian or vegan a picture of meat, they get this sort of conscious aversion, but the subconscious part of their brain still gives us.

Please give me that. That's fast. Yeah.

So you're saying like evolutionary evolutionarily? Over time, we have we are encoded to recognize something as nutrient giving and good for our body.

But other parts of the brain, which are like we've programmed during this lifetime based upon messaging and learning to be like, no, that's bad, but oh, so we're just not.

And that's why they make plant food look like sausages.

Oh yeah. You know, in this case we think of is that.

Yeah, yeah, wow. Why you take shit and try to get it to look like yeah, like why why is it not its own thing. Yeah.

Like why why did veggie burgers or they call them was why did they steal the burgers groove.

But there's, there's another part of this too.

Those like they find the. I don't know how they measure, but there's a similar thing humans like overlooks. And humans like shoreline's. And it'd be like the rich, you know, like when you look at human, like the African diaspora and when humans started colonizing the world, those coastal roots, coastal roots and river roots. And so it seems that there's this sort of association with shoreline's land meets water like the beach. Right. Triggers the thing we like.

That's a good spot. And then also this idea that humans like an overlook.

They like to be like, ha, I can see everything around me, like pleasing some deep down thinking. You just see what's up. Sure. Safety not you surprised I know what's going on down there.

People going in the restaurant, lining the corner seat and to, you know, their back is to both wall so they can see peripherally everything around them all the time, you know.

Yeah, totally. Except my wife was there today because.

Someone in Bahat told me that and, you know, it's like the old thing that you when you open a door and let a woman go in first and someone barkhouse tell me that, you know, he said that's cultural. I mean, that's like it's cultural, but it's regional. And he was saying here it would be that you'd go in first to make sure everything's cool, you don't open the door and be like you go in first. I'm not going in there.

It's like you go in. It looks good. Things are cool.

Everybody, your family comes in that there's no double standard.

Send them all in and then be like, good luck. I'll be through last years going in the bunker first.

Do you guys know what percentage of vegetarians and vegans eat meat when they get drunk?

So it's astronomical. I think it's 30 to 40 plus percent of I mean, like almost you know, it's stripped away the neocortex. That's exactly how it starts. Get you down to your reptilian brain.

And that's not an incontrovertible argument.

That means for humans, you know, and, you know, maybe it's even more than 50 percent, but it's a massive amount. You asked me earlier about truth. Well, there's your truth, man. What do you say?

That both like carnivore dieters and vegans, when they get drunk, they all pizza, they'll want donuts and they want their dough.

It's possible. It's possible. And, you know, I think you could you could say that.

But I wonder I don't think you could draw the inference then that that's necessarily good for humans, just that that's like a uniquely addictive, false food for humans, because nobody's going to say like, well, pizza is clearly a vitamin. Yeah, like that doesn't work that way. But yeah, I think that we've figured out that's a whole separate discussion about the way that we've hijacked human society. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And the fact we've made these things super addictive, but evolutionarily there's no such thing as pizza.

There's a thing I wanted to mention earlier that my wife does, that our kids that I think is helpful.

And I came to mind when we were talking about earlier like that to try to get yourself into a position where you feel really good, where you have an awareness of your body, and to strip things away to a point where like, OK, like I feel optimal right now, like, let's say you go on, you know, hunt for a week and you're not at home snacking on normal garbage and you're really pushing it to it physically.

Every day your meal structure changes and at the end of you, like God, like I never feel this good.

And then you just like Lezley, go back into all that shit that makes you not feel good. But you hit a point. You're like, this is what I would like to feel like. Wide awake, lot of energy, sleep very soundly at night.

Right.

Then you hit kind of like a thing, a thing to strive to and just listen to your body. When when our kids are in a situation like that, they go to a birthday party and also and whatever reason, some of his hands them like a piece of cake the size of a book.

Right.

She'll say she's like, introduce this idea.

Like, go ahead, listen to your body. You know, and it's funny when you remind them of that. They will not eat as much because just making them be like, oh, that's right, no, you know what? My body's telling me I'm done. But they need to be invited. They need to be invited and remind them to be like, ask yourself when you think you've had enough of that shit. And hopefully they're like, oh, yeah, you know what, I, I think I have had enough of that shit.

You know, they're more likely to walk away and hopefully, you know, parents can help their kids or, you know, realize after they binge on Halloween candy or the cake, when the kids are like, I don't feel good, I feel anxious or I'm just, you know, like, do you think this is related to the food you ate?

Listen to your body. I love it. I think that's what we need to teach our kids.

But you bring up this great point that we talked on earlier. It's just how many of us have taken the time to get to the point where we know what that optimal feels like. And then you can see the DeviantArt signal versus noise.

Yeah, I used to have it where I tell my wife, like I'd like to sort of precedent. She was. Let's walk back a step back step.

Were you pretty drunk? Forty eight hours ago. And I was like, oh my God, I was forgot about that. She goes, yeah, yeah. Maybe, maybe something. They're funny that we've had this conversation 30 times. Yeah.

Totally true.

All right. So. Paul Saladino, M.D., how long you been a doctor for all long, a long time.

Well, you went out of college and no, I, I guess it depends when you described me as a doctor, but I finished residency. I've got into medical school six years ago, so.

Yeah, I'm a little bit I'm a little bit your non-trading. I'm a little bit yeah. I'm a little bit older than most docs who've been out that long because I took six years off after college and played and exploded into my return. Yeah. Do you immediately.

I wanted to ask this earlier. Just never got to do it. But did you immediately get into diet type stuff and or what was your original medicine that you're going to work in.

Yeah, yeah. I've always been interested in diet before. The reason I said a long time was because I before I went to medical school, I was a physician assistant. Oh. And I worked in cardiology. So I wasn't a doctor technically, but I was working in medicine and, you know, as a P.A. and then I went back to medical school. I got you.

And the whole reason I went back to medical school was because I got fascinated by these connections between diet and health. I just was like, you know, I think this is a big lever, of course, stress and family and community and environmental toxins. But diet is the lever that I wanted to get interested in. So I always knew that in my work I was going to be kind of drilling down these ideas. I obviously haven't been thinking about a Carnivore approach for, you know, since I was EPA, but that was the reason I went back to medical school, was to think like, how is this connected?

The Carnivore code is not your first book. It's my first book. What is your first book? Yeah.

So you're so you're you're working on a cookbook. Oh, OK.

But that's not going to happen yet. That's next year. Got you. So the Carnivore code, Paul Saladino. It's out now. Soon. Oh now. And then how do people go find you online? The best place to find me is all of my stuff on my podcast is at heart and soil supplements, dotcom.

And what about when you're hanging out and you do stuff on social media at Carnivore M.D.? Oh, that's good.

You like that? Stylish.

That's real good at Carnivore M.D.. Carnivore M.D.. That's a great idea, man.

Yeah. Animal based medicine. You know, people think about plant based or doing animal based medicine. That's a great handle. Thanks. The doctor was taken.

So it got me. Doctor, I was a little girl like, can I call you Doctor Meat?

So I was like, no, I don't think that's a good doctor. Maybe it was.

The other choice is a toss up between Dr. Mediacom. I think you did the right thing.

I need you to write. So check out the book. I mean, we only just touched on, like, a smidge what's in the book. So check out the book, The Carnivore Code. Paul Saladino, Dr. Paul. And it's out now, you look real good in your off your photo. I mean, that's my do you look at Tim, did you look like a mean you look like a mean lawyer that's going to get you out of jail?

Oh yeah. With that, yeah.

I could drive a car real fast and out of nine million. Oh yeah. He looks like a dude from the Fast and Furious and that's a better way. I wish my editor told me that too serious in this photo. Oh no. You just look like.

Yeah, you look like you're going to I think being an espionage thriller, maybe I was trying to be a little James Bond here.

We're up against some serious stuff here.

You know, you guys do a joke. We're talking about human health. We're talking about putting my suit on. Oh, yeah. I mean, you guys know your purposes. Yeah. Yeah.

Put the suit on, man. I smile a lot more than that picture.

Makes me laugh. I know.

I think the picture demands some respect.

Man brooding All right. Thank you very much for coming on. My pleasure. It's a pleasure and a privilege. I'm going to go home and just drink animal fat, not try anything, drink a cold.

Well, you can just eat more animal your animal fat with some beaubrun. I'm going to experiment. This was this was amazing.

Is it going to change with what's for dinner tonight? Hmmm, I made the mistake of not.

No, no, because no, now we had fish cakes last night and we had so many suckers that we now have a giant bowl of fish cakes. We're having exactly what we had last night.

Tonight, I don't want to waste no, I'd rather be unhealthy than waste suckers.

I hear that.

But after the next night. I tell everybody, kids, bacon and steak tonight, raw, you guys get buzz, buzz. Oh, yeah, I'm flying high. Man got all hopped up on liver. I can't tell. Yeah. This might be the creber that you gave me. Yeah.

He threw you through some of that horse tranquilizer in the film. All right. Thanks a lot, man. Thanks, Paul. Thanks, guys. Thank you.