Welcome to the Megyn Kelly Show your home for open, honest and provocative conversations. Hey, everyone, it's Megan Kelly. Welcome to The Megan Kelly Show and Merry Christmas. Today on the program, a perfect couple of guests.

We've got Jonathan Morris and Caitlin Morris. Jonathan Morris is better known to a lot of the folks who listen to this show as Father Jonathan, now formerly Father Jonathan Morris. He's a Fox News contributor. That's where I first met him.

And in May of twenty nineteen, he announced he was leaving the priesthood and shortly thereafter it did not overlap. Or did it will ask. No, it didn't. He met Caitlyn and we'll take it from there when you meet them in a minute. But the story of how it all happened is absolutely fascinating and we just thought it would be a perfect couple to bring on this time of year just to celebrate. Yes, God, choices in life, independence and love, ultimately love.

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Sweet newlyweds, together with the we're the third wheel.

OK, there's so much to go over with you. So I'm going to I'm going to start with you, Jonathan. So, Kaitlin, stand by, because I got to get your story on record. Jonathan, I can't call you Jonathan. I've only ever called you Father Jonathan, so I can't do that now. So Janice, Dean and I decided we're going to call you F.J. used to be F.J. formally. Father F.J. is my that's going to be my interim term for you and I.

I'll try to grow into Jonathan.

That's fine. You can call me whatever you like. And that's part of our history. That's part of my history. And I'm so glad that this sister is connected with yours over so many years.

You have been such a beautiful friend to me and counselor and just amazing presence in my life. So I'm thrilled to have you and to be talking about your joy. So you grew up in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and I love the story of how you first became a priest. I remember sitting in a little restaurant with you and Doug years ago who spent 13 years ago or so 12 years ago, and you were telling me the story and I couldn't believe how it happened.

So before we get to this moment, did you grow up very religious?

I would say my parents tried to raise me very religious. That was that certainly religious home. But at the same time, I kind of instinctively rejected that during my especially during my high school years.

And so, like, do you have brothers and sisters? I know you have least one sister.

I have six siblings. So we have a big Catholic family, seven, seven kids mostly. I grew up in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and then also in Akron and Cleveland, Ohio. So maybe typical Catholic, large Catholic family of yours, Boston, that would like maybe at least encourage or be open to one of the children becoming a priest or a nun. But certainly that was not encouraged. And I had no idea or any interest in that growing up, at least through halfway through college.

You know, it's funny because my my mom and dad, my mom is very Catholic and my dad was very Catholic and even my stepdad is very Catholic. But my mom, too, tried to do the Catholic thing when she first married my dad. You know, she saved herself to marriage. And then, as she puts it, she had two babies in two years and she said, forget that, got some birth control.

I came along five years later. But there's so many big Catholic families in part for that reason.

Yeah, well, and thank God that five years later you came along. That's right.

I as I like to remind my brother and sister, I was the only one they really wanted.

That was plan. OK, all right.

So you grew up a Catholic family and, you know, maybe there's some did you know there might be some hope that you would enter the priesthood one day? No deal. The only first memory, Maegan, that I have of being somehow attracted to the priesthood or kind of a noble calling was I remember my parents had a priest friend who was like this traveling missionary come and celebrate mass at our house. I have no idea why they did that. But anyway, he came there was like in the living room.

I don't know if he was asking for money or if you would like. I have no idea what. But he left in the closet his chalice and the wafers, the what we would call unconsecrated hosts. Right. And I remember, first of all, being fascinated by him as a person that he was he would talk about his missionary work and traveling. I don't know if it was a travel that was interesting to me or I think it was more than that.

It was the travel in order to do something great in his life. And he was pitching that to us and telling us about it. I found it fascinating. But then some like very late night, I snuck down into that closet and I saw the chalice and I saw those wafers and I had this is a confession to make. And I can't say if you've been to confession me or not, but the word just has.

Jessamy, this is my is my confession to you for I went up into that closet, I took some of the wafers down and I ate them.

I don't know that. I felt like I don't know, I was like testing it out or something. So to answer your question, I had very little interest in priesthood or anything like that until halfway through college. And I can tell you that.

But I love this. So it reminds me of the Saturday Night Fever. Like my girlfriend, she loves the taste of communion wafers further, which really nobody ever says.

But you are a different story. OK, so you get to college.

What was your major in college when you first got there?

I studied Business Administration marketing. You think you're going a different route and then tell us what a different.

Well, I ended up rooming with a friend of mine who was from Los Angeles and he said he told me that he was thinking about being a priest and this was this was a Catholic college. And so there was a kind of underlining Catholic culture to it. But we were part of kind of like the bad boys fraternity. And, you know, we used to say, we'll go to confession. If anybody drinks more than X number of beers and X number was like, wait, it should have been x x ray.

Like, it was way too high number. So we were not really on the path towards religious certainly religious conversion or even real attachment. But my roommate said that he had this profoundly religious spiritual experience in high school. He turned away from some of his bad ways and he was thinking about being a priest. But then every so he was a year ahead of me in college. Every freshman class that came in of girls, he would start dating them and he would forget the idea of celibate priesthood very quickly.

And I would say read like what happened. Like, I thought you were thinking about this. And all I could think of and I don't know if this was God or if this was my upbringing, I have no idea. But I said to him, read. There will be consequences whether you choose to go the route of priesthood and missionary or not. So don't just go with what you feel, try to decide what you should do. And so the two of us went to a seminary to visit seminaries where guys were thinking about being a priest, go and study and I went with him to make sure he went.

He ended up saying, yes, I'm staying. He stayed for seven days. He took off. But in those seven days, I visited him and one thing led to another. I ended up staying for twenty six years.

So when you said, I'm going to do it and he said, no, I'm not. What was that moment like?

Um, well, I don't know if you might have been thinking about my girlfriend, to be honest, because he left. I stayed. I broke up with my girlfriend of two years. I called him up saying, I'm staying. I said, Brett, do me a favor. Take care of Tasha, oh, boy, and he said, I got your back, buddy. They are married and they have eight kids I know for you in the wedding.

I, I was not invited to the wedding. It was too soon. Oh. Oh.

I was going to say if they had waited to officiate it. That's hilarious.

What a fun story they have too for how they how they first got together.

OK, so now so at that point in your life when you decided I'm going to do this, how old were you?

So I was twenty, twenty one when I first left the seminary.

OK. And so at that point you mentioned you had Tasha. So you had had girlfriends. Yes. 21 year old guy, Catholic or not you.

I'm just trying to see where you're going. I'm trying to see where you know where I'm going.

I know you said you had Tasha, you had a little friend, you know, just trying to. I didn't I didn't mean had in my wife.

My wife is on this call that you had experienced a girlfriend in your romance.

So so was it hard to, like, step away from, you know, I mean, whatever had happened there, I think it would be hard to sort of say I don't want that anymore because, of course, the Catholic priest, it requires you to reject that.

It was hard, is very hard. And I ended up joining this is this is probably a good topic for a whole nother podcast. But I ended up joining a religious order that was I would call it a cult. Founded, founded by a super, super charismatic guy who ended up becoming very friendly with John Pope John Paul, the second ended up from this little teeny tiny town in Mexico. He ended up founding and then growing this religious order that swept the world, bringing together some of the most talented young men, the fastest growing order in the Catholic Church.

It was called the Legionaries of Christ. One thing. Fast forward 15 years, 20 years, really. I had been in this the whole time. It was discovered that this man was a total fraud, that he had multiple families around the world, that he had abused seminarians, that he had children, that he had abused his own children. It's a long story. His name was Father Marcial Marcial Marcial. So they used very heavy recruiting tactics.

I remember one one time with my my roommate in college there talking to one of these recruiters, and they they looked at me. They were supposedly recruiting him, but they looked at me and they said, Jonathan, you were created by God from all eternity to be a member of the Legionaries of Christ.

That a huge impression because it was a reinforcement over and over of you're in the right place, you're doing the right thing. This is your highest and best calling.

That's right.

So, wait, when you say you were with them, you were with them for 20 years or just 20 years later, he was exposed.

So I was with them for, I think 15 years. And then when when he was exposed, I quickly asked for a basically to be to be dismissed from that order to be let go. And I joined the Archdiocese of New York under the the great welcome and leadership of Timothy Dolan. Cardinal Dolan of New York. Are you welcome to Winter. When you were with the Legionaries, where were you?

So I lived in Rome for nine years, Rome, Italy. So I was with them. That's when I first started working for the Fox News Channel, CNN first and then the Fox News Channel as a commentator. And then I was there for, gosh, I guess another five years. And then I transferred out of that order when everything was falling apart. It still exists, believe it or not. A lot of great people involved with it. But the order is rotten from within my opinion.

And then I came to New York and that's when he came to New York.

OK, that's that's when when we met. So you're you're over there in Rome. And you this is when we first met when you were covering the death of Pope John Paul. The second, right. Yes.

So I was in Rome over there. And then I came back to New York and I've been in New York for ten years.

OK, and is it true you were actually with the pope when he died?

Not not when he died? I was with him personally. I think the last time on Easter Sunday, Easter Sunday of that same year that he died. So I walked up and I was delivering this gift to him and they brought me in and sat me down at his Easter lunch table. So it was a pretty amazing moment for me.

I mean, is that even just like as a lowly Catholic, I can imagine what it would feel like to be next to him, in particular, Pope John Paul. The second I mean, as a priest, did you feel was it electric? What was it like?

It was electric at the same time. It's interesting looking back on it, because he was one who was who was complicit, I don't think intentionally, but I think he was complicit in allowing this really monster of a guy, Father Marcial, to dupe him and all of us. So here was a very I think, a very holy, saintly man who's actually been beat a saint in the Catholic Church. He's been canonized, but he, I think, allowed himself to be duped.

And there was not good management. I can tell you that, too. Yeah. You know, so it's really I have mixed feelings. I certainly I felt electrified being with him at the same time. I hope I'm not too cynical right now, but I say I wish you would have done something differently.

Well, yeah.

I mean, a lot of folks, Catholic and non, are looking at the Catholic Church feeling that on a number of levels, getting back to you and you're getting hired at Fox News, you are so out for our audience. Who doesn't know you? F.J. is a very good looking man. He is a very good looking. He's the best looking priest. We used to call you father. What a waste. I don't know if you knew that.

Did you know that I read it in your book. That's a plug. That's a oh yeah. We used to call him father. What a waste. You know, and you know why you were like an instant celebrity? Because you were this priest who could really explain what we were watching and we would always cover the pope's deaths or the new pope who was coming in. And you could just explain it in terms that people would understand. You were always incredibly affable, very good communicator.

And this is why not only did CNN hire you, Fox News hired you. You became a Wall Street Journal contributor. You got a Sirius XM radio show on the Catholic Channel.

You were featured in the movie The Irishman for like a while. And you became what I think is the closest thing I've seen to a celebrity priest. So I wonder if you ever got a hard time for that from your other priests.

The Kaitlynn will be brought in in a minute, but I think she will say, yes, they were fucking jealous.

That's I think that's what she'll say the same time. She see a lot of money there.

Caitlin, are you there? I am here, I think. What's the truth? What's the truth, lady? Hi. Good to hear you. Oh, no.

I just think that sometimes it's hard for people when they see lots of good things happening to other people and maybe not them. It's hard for them to to celebrate with you. So I think for John, a lot of great things that had happened to him. This is before we met and maybe some people saw it, a competition.

I guess that's what I tried to tell him, because even when you go into the priesthood, you're still a human being. And he said, I'm all the same positive and negative attributes of being a human being as anybody else. And jealousy is one of them.

Yes, it's a green it's a green eyed monster. There are so many people who supported me, including Cardinal Timothy Dolan, you know, and who encouraged me to continue doing the media. And I hope I did it with an honest desire to just communicate what I believed. And I still believe about about God and about purpose in life and about all of those things.

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That's promo code EMK for fifteen percent off at the l o m s y box dot com. Col Dillon is a stand up guy. I love him, and just so our our listeners know, he's so sweet. I've met him a few times. I've interviewed him a couple of times. And after my acrimonious departure from NBC, he wrote me the nicest handwritten letter. And I mean, as a Catholic, when you get a note like that from Cardinal Dolan, it's like, oh, my God, except there was no return address on there.

I was like, I has really struggled to figure out how to thank him. And it's not like Dear Santa North Pole, you know, you get silly Colonel Dolan say pads.

Anyway, he's a he's a stand up guy. And and Jonathan, I want the audience to know you, too. Not only did you baptize all three of my kids and Janice Dean's kids, but there was a very tumultuous time in my life when I was in Cleveland, Ohio, for the Republican National Convention when Trump got the nomination. And it was the same day that somebody leaked my name to the Drudge Report as cooperating with the investigation into Roger Ailes.

Previously, I just hadn't said anything publicly. And people knew there was pressure on me to say something. They wanted me to say something in his defense, but I wouldn't. But people didn't know that I was actually somebody who was coming forward against him behind the scenes. And it got leaked to the Drudge Report. And it was a big, big news story. And it was certainly a huge news story at Fox. And I was holed up in my hotel room not talking to anyone.

I was afraid I felt like a caged animal in there because now I had no allies.

I didn't know who had fight. I mean, FOX is very divided at the time over this. And, you know, Janice knew my story, but nobody else knew the story. And it was just very scary. And I got a knock on my door and it was you. And you came in, you held my hand. We prayed you didn't you weren't looking for anything other than to be supportive. And I will never forget that moment. You just held my hand and we prayed it was the only thing that made me feel better.

Let me let me do a little revisionist history here, but I think it's actually true. So I did not knock on your door. OK, that would have been very creepy. And you would not have answered your door as a surprise, so it was so we we texted and let me tell you from my perspective, so imagine this.

So we were texting and we didn't share anything about what you were going. I knew what you were going through and et cetera. And I just wanted to know that that I was there for you as a friend and as a priest. And so we we agreed to meet. Right. And you said don't. The only place I can't even get out of my room, like you said, you felt like a cake. And I'm like, I can't come out.

So the only place to meet is here. And here I am thinking. Right, the audience can try to picture this. So you're making Kellie's now big time in the news in a story that has to do with sex, it has to do with abuse and has to do with all sorts of stuff and hear a priest is going up to her bedroom in a hotel. OK, so this is what's going through my mind. I'm going, OK, you want me to meet you there?

OK, should I go? So here you are. My two choices. Megan, I never told you that. I'm telling you this for the first time. Do I like it's I think this is August, right? So I'm like, how do I go up? I can wrap my cover up my collar so that nobody knows that it's a priest going up to your hotel room. And I know that that might be worse. Right. So they might recognize me and I'm like hiding.

And so, like, some some something's going to be like released in which a video of me going up, hiding my car. So I doesn't know it does not look good. So I just decided to go up, just, you know, making a pastoral visit and all went well. But you were a trooper there, Megan, and I think you tried to live honestly and truthfully, and it all worked out well.

Thank you. I mean, I've said before and it's true that I think the same ethical compass that led me to make the decisions I made there and throughout the rest of my life were in large part thanks to the Catholic Church. I mean, I'm not a particularly religious person. I'm not very good about going to church on Sundays. But the imprint that was made on me from going every Sunday and going through all of the sacraments that I have, I'm just religious education with my mom, you know, that my mom put me in.

It mattered. It made a difference in my life. And so even if you don't wind up, you know, particularly observant, I do think it's a worthwhile exercise because that ethical imprint winds up mattering in life.

Absolutely true. But, Megan, think about your kids, though. This is like I'm just that this is like hard. This is our podcast stuff. You have to put that imprint on them. Right. So somehow an imprint was made on you, right. Because of going every Sunday or whatever. And I think there's different ways and I'm trying to figure this out myself, it's much easier for me to go to Mass on Sunday, every Sunday as a priest.

Now I have a decision to do it when nobody is expecting me to show up.

Welcome to our world. Yes, it's different.

Oh, and like sitting through boring homilies and like, bad news, like, oh, my gosh.

Oh, my gosh.

She's crossed over. He's on our team now. Yes. You've got to be armchair quarterbacking, are you not?

You're like, pick it out for the love of right now.

Oh, it's rough. Especially my wonderful wife who we'll talk to in a minute, is grew up evangelical and they have great music and they have great preaching. And so I'm trying to explain to Caitlyn, I love what I'm going. You're not because of that, but because the sacraments and because I believe God is present a special way. She's like, the music is really bad and this guy can't talk.

CAITLYN Is there any chance you're going to convert him to.

Well, he did go with me to my mom's evangelical church in Pennsylvania that has like a rock band. And there's a PowerPoint presentation and there's props and everything. And and you get coffee before you walk in forceable and you mingle. And just like, what is this? He's so confused. But he was trying so hard to sing along. And it was it was it made my mom very happy. Got major point there with my mom that I went to church.

That would be such a huge twist to this story. I mean, like, I'm sort of rooting for OK, so so back to back to you and your and your struggles. So you get to some point in the in your time as a priest where it it must have occurred to you like the bird saying, I'm not sure this is for me. How long into your tenure as. A priest was that I would say almost right from the beginning, Megan, as sad as that sounds and it is that all it's not all said.

Keep in mind that I did join that religious order that turned out to be a cult. So there were things that were not right. It was super strict, super rigid and very kind of top down control, very little personal freedom. And so at some level, even though I was very young and very idealistic and noble and not wanting to do hard things, difficult things, including celibacy and be a part of this most strict order, something I knew something wasn't right, but I had gone in so deeply, I think culturally, socially.

And then I became a more, more and more public figure. They made me a superior, as they call it, in the religious order. So I was like leading other guys. And then I started working. I worked with Mel Gibson and Jim Caviezel in the film The Passion of the Christ, and it became kind of public through that and then with CNN and Fox and all this stuff. And so I felt and this is I think this is a human experience, not just mine.

It's. I don't want to let people down. I don't want to let the people's expectations of me down, especially because I saw that I was doing some good. And this is this is the conflict, right? I'm doing some good. And yet it doesn't feel right for me. There's another layer of it, whenever you're going to leave a profession that you've been attached to for a long time, I think it's hard because your identity gets wrapped up in said profession, even if it's not something where you're doing a ton of good like lawyering, but so that that's there.

But with you, it is an extra layer because people have this special relationship with their priest or their minister or their rabbi. You're up on a pedestal. You know, they look up to you. They they rely on you for life advice and religious guidance. And I think the pressure must have been especially immense on you not to leave that post. And in essence, put yourself first, you know, which is what most people do their whole lives.

But a priest, maybe not.

Yeah. And I think there was some. Oh, you said it exactly right. Megan, no doubt being put up on a pedestal. All of that and some of it, I think is just really wrong. And the church needs to go through major conversion transformation from it. Some of it was my own fault for allowing myself to actually believe that that was true and that I was special. And I think I'm special because I'm an individual created by God out of love, but not because I had a certain position or even that I was ordained.

I was different, but not special, so to speak. But I found that. And maybe we can talk about this later in my new work that I'm doing now professionally as an executive coach and working in leadership development, a kind of a solution to that of that quandary. Right, of wanting to do good. But at the same time, recognizing that I have to take care of myself and I believe deeply that if I'm first as a human being, I am glorifying God.

That makes sense, right? If I'm flourishing as a human being, I am glorifying God.

Yeah, well, I mean, I think of most of us on the outside feel that. And I just think there's so much pressure on someone like you who makes a noble choice to serve God in a special way to just always do it in that way. So I'm I'm happy for you, as I was when you told me you were leaving, that you recognized you needed something else and were brave enough to act on it. I'm sure not everyone in in the priesthood felt the same.

Did you did you hear from any of them? Did you get did anybody give you a hard time? Yeah, some did.

Some people cut me off. Some people wrote articles about me as if I was like and trust me, I know that you've experienced this 10 times, but I have people who wrote articles about me as if as if they never knew me or if I were not a real person that just commented on you like you were some sort of object in the room that had no feelings and sentiments and never even tried to reach out to me to understand or anything. But that's part of the price you paid for being in the public.

So I get it.

I was it took me years to realize this, but I did come to the point of realizing there is in my case, there's Megan Kelly, the ME, and then there's Megan Kelly, the brand, which is totally fair game for criticism, you know, and whenever I read stuff about myself I don't like, I have to remind myself that's the brand that I've put out there. Not everyone knows or cares to know my heart and who I really am.

So you can't take it as though they do. Right. You just got to remember that that's F.J., the brand. They don't they don't really know anything about you. The people who did were rooting for you.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

So did you have to tell did you have to tell Cardinal Dolan? You know, I mean, I know he gave you like a little time to think about it, but did you have to walk in there one day and say, KD, I'm out of here?

So I did I did get get to the point. It was probably two o'clock in the morning when I sent him the email because I wanted to put it all on paper before I talked to him because I didn't want to be convinced otherwise right now. And so I put it all down. I spent time thinking about it, but it was 2:00 in the morning. And then I took that same email that I sent to him and I forwarded to all of my siblings, not to my mom and dad.

So I don't want to put them in their grave. But I sent it to all of my siblings and said, this is what I'm going to do. And I basically asked for a sabbatical. And I told him my whole story. I told him. What was going on in my life, and it was a shock to him because I was very close to him and he had given me a lot of responsibility. I was running to parishes in the Bronx at the time.

I was overseeing as co-chairman of 14 schools in the Bronx. I was doing a lot and it was it was hard, but he was so good to me. He said, Jonathan, I think I have a person who could fill in for you. Don't wait until next month or two months from now to take a sabbatical. Leave this weekend. And I go. He wasn't disappointed at all in you, he was, but I got to the point that I was OK with people being disappointed.

But but people is not the same as Cardinal Dolan. I mean, that must have been hard. Yeah, but it's still other people's expectations. Right, and that's that's the point, I think, and they can they can have different like my mom's expectations or higher than your expectations of me, I could deal with Meghan Kelly's expectations of me. That wasn't hard either. I baptized your three kids. That's right.

And by the way, I know that you just want to make perfectly sure we're still good if it is so and so.

I had to deal with all of that. Right. And the priest who I, I was living with and like like leading the two parishes, the everyone on Fox News, the management at Fox, the all the people who listen to or read my books, all of it. And then Cardinal Dolan. But I'm not saying I'm just saying everybody has that in their life. Right. Your expectations of your spouse, the expectations of your children, expectations of your boss.

So who is the toughest one to tell Cardinal Dolan? I would say more than your parents. Yeah. Yeah. So they came around to it. Yeah, because in the end, parents think about your kids, right, no matter what they tell you, like your kids. Cardinal Dolan was my boss and a friend. But boss. Yeah.

And you were on the inner circle. I mean, he had really taken you in and promoted you and believed in you. So it's even tougher there. But, you know, what everybody wants to know is because you've said publicly I this is how you put it in your letter that you released in May of twenty nineteen. I've struggled for years with my vocation and with the commitments that the Catholic priesthood demands, especially not being able to marry and have a family.

In response to which everyone said, even though you said my decision is not about an existing relationship, but everybody is like he's got a girlfriend or a boyfriend.

None of us knew. I mean, we know what we know, but that's what everybody thought. You had started a relationship and that's why you were leaving. But was that true?

No. Oh, it it was. I mean, you don't read what I wrote. Yeah. I did not have a relationship that I was pursuing in any way or that I was hoping to continue in any way. That was that was absolutely true.

You didn't have, like, even a dalliance before. Now, I mentioned very publicly to the Cardinal Dolan, and I mentioned this with Megan Latham tomorrow on the show, I said part of the manipulation by the religious order that I was a part of is at one point, even before I was ordained, I did have, as you say, partly of a relationship with someone that was fleeting. And and I went and I said, I do not want to be ordained a priest.

I this is not for me, this is not. And they instead of saying, OK, they were like, no, that's OK, don't worry about it. That never happened. And they promoted me two years ahead and they made me a superior of the order. And it just shows the manipulation that was there. So yes, I struggled and I put that out. I think publicly I didn't I didn't do this general confession in which I which I don't think is helpful or necessary.

But by any that was that was 20 years earlier. And you weren't officially ordained. I was thinking like when you were getting ready to jump off the diving board and say, OK, I'm out of here.

There wasn't like I just feel like there would be like maybe I'll just try it first before I take this big leap. That didn't happen.

Yeah, no, Kevin will be will be brought in soon, I'm sure. But we had we had no when I left and I asked for the sabbatical, I was 100 percent totally free to still consider coming back. And Cardinal Dolan was encouraging me to come back and he just basically said, take it slowly, take it slowly. And I did. But as soon as I left, I basically knew deep down this is something that is if Pope Francis gives me a dispensation, I'm going to take it.

But I took time. It took four months and it went back. I lived with my parents, imagine at the age of forty six years old, going back and living with your parents and not knowing what to do for a job, for anything.

And also, it had to be a little afraid, I mean, that you weren't going to have any moves with the ladies, right. Did you have to get did you worry about that at all? Like, am I going to be smooth?

Oh, no, I didn't know about that in the sense I listen not to throw it away, but no worries.

No, it's not that. But I knew that. I mean, I wasn't you know, I wasn't twenty three. I was I recognize that this was a serious thing that I saw so many marriages struggle. I knew it wasn't like I was leaving the priesthood for some fairy tale. I knew that it wasn't easy. I knew that dating was especially at my age. Where am I going to date somebody who is divorced and remarried or somebody who's twenty two or somebody who is fifty eight, who's never married, or Caitlin who was perfect.

And I didn't know if I would find that person, but I did. All right, more with Father Jonathan, I mean, Jonathan and Caitlin in just one second and this segment of the interview where I'm going to ask them all the inappropriate, awkward questions that, you know, you want answered and it will deliver.

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And that's where we're just talking about anything that we think is interesting.

Well, listen, it being Christmas, I wanted to tell you about two Christmas movies that I never miss. And in case you haven't seen them, one of them you have, one of them you might not. You still have time like we've got today to just loaf around and watch movies and a little football, but just take it easy, OK? One is it's a wonderful life and you've seen that. But you may not have seen it the way we we watch it.

My family and I treat this movie as the Rocky Horror Picture Show. We we all get our Santa hats on. We get bells, everybody has bells, we get salt, we get bread and we get ready and we sit in front of it. And whenever a clearance comes on, we ring our bells. Whenever George does, he or his friend Sam, Sam, whatever his name is, does his Yitzhar. We do it whenever Mr. Potter comes on.

We s and then when Mr. Morenae has the new house, we throw salt and bread and it's super fun.

It's just like a it's like a fun way of enjoying a classic movie and getting your kids into George Bailey in his life because who doesn't love that movie? Although and the young ones, it's a little long and, you know, this will make him love it. It's just super fun. And my second suggestion to you is Christmas in Connecticut. So Christmas in Connecticut is in nineteen forty seven. I think Barbara Stanwyck, Valmar, Barbara Stanwyck was young and it's black and white and it's one of her lesser known films.

But it's this classic holiday film that will make you feel like you've done a little time travel.

They've got the horse drawn carriages in the snowy meadow and the way she dresses is so beautiful and elegant. And the farm that she's allegedly at in Connecticut over the holidays is perfection. And you could watch the whole thing with the sound down, frankly, because it's really just the visuals of the movie that I know just make you feel incredibly good, especially on Christmas Day. So I never miss putting that on. And I hope if you do it, you enjoy it, too.

Back to John and. That's the perfect point at which to bring in your now beautiful wife, Kaitlin's, as you know. So she's with us. And so, Caitlin, welcome back.

Just so the audience knows, you're from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. You went to NYU, majored in journalism and were at the time you met F.J. and and now are a successful producer and booker at Good Morning America. You work for ABC News?

Yes, I work in D.C. and the investigative unit now. So when I met John, I. I would that Morning America and when we were when Pope Benedict resigned and they flew like 20, 30 people over from New York to cover this. And I was one of them. And so we were all in Rome for a week covering the conclave.

That was 2013, 2013. So you met him, you met him first in Rome? Yeah, now what do you remember having any sort of reaction to him when you met him first?

Well, I just think he was there. I've never seen so many priests in my entire life running around Rome. Everyone was a priest and growing up evangelical. I don't like go out and drink wine with your pastor. So it was just like a whole different different kind of world over there. But I met him when I was trying to book all the cardinals on all the morning shows. Right. So that was the competition and everybody wanted Cardinal Dolan on.

And so I would that was one of the people I would go to saying, can we please have an interview with him tomorrow morning with George Stephanopoulos or one of our anchors? So that's how I first was introduced to then Father Jonathan.

Is it funny for you now looking back at those moments where you were soliciting him as a booker to think, you know, if somebody could have tapped you on the shoulder and told you you're going to wind up married to him, can you imagine?

You know, it's so crazy big in his whole life I'm living is just it is almost too good to be true. I say that to John all the time, but I. I feel so blessed, like every day I wake up so happy. I know there's a lot of heartache right now with what's happening in twenty twenty and the pandemic, but we have managed to find such joy and happiness in our family and it, it's, and it's so much it is rooted in him and what he's brought into my life.

So yeah. It is so crazy.

No I someone told me that seven years ago I would have but I'm feeling it just listening to you, because what I'm picturing is the couple I saw walking on air at your wedding so I can feel it even even though we can't see each other. All right.

So have you ever seen the Thorn Birds?

You know, you asked me that at the reception and I was like, I haven't seen that, but I think fleabag. And so we watch that together.

But I have since learned that you still have not watched it. I mean, you you now listen, he he never left the priesthood.

I'm sorry, spoiler, but you you're like his the Megi to his father, Ralph, every woman in America.

And they watch the world totally rooting for him to leave with his girl.

No Firebirds, no thoughts on.

So the next time you saw him was when. After 2013. So he asked me on a date, we went out on a date on my first day. This is after he had made me laugh that he did an interview on Fox. And then I heard from him and he asked me out to lunch and which is like out of the blue, you heard from him out of the blue, like.

Well, so I had to when he made his announcement in May, he had at the bottom of it for members of the media, you can reach me at the email address. I will be responding. But, you know, this is you trying to traffic it, how to write. And so I because I'm a booker at heart, let's be honest. I was like, OK, I'll tell him. Your father, Jonathan, you probably don't remember me, but I met you in Rome and I just wanted to say congratulations on your next steps.

And we're all cheering for you. Best wishes, Caitlin Bulmer.

But was that was that as a book or was that, like, genuinely wishing him goodwill or was that like.

Well, he's very good. Well, listen, I spent my all my life single. I was going to probably be destined to be a nun, basically working. And I know I knew you would get that that reference. I don't think that no one to understand that. But I wonder what I was jumping on planes and traveling and that with my life and that with my love. And so when I said that, I mean, I'm not going to like, say, OK, I was just doing it to try to book him on The View or something.

No, I was just genuinely interested in hearing what his next steps were. When I read that too, I thought, oh, that's interesting. I wonder what what's the real deal here? Where is he going? And if he really did just want something new and and he followed it and had the guts to do it. And so it was exciting, then I got to meet him and have won.

So so how did he how did he respond to that email or what did he do?

No, he didn't. He did not respond like, OK, that's fine. I'm just getting thousands.

You're like, no, it's no problem. He's going to hell anyway.

So it's really so. So but but I was in he found me on Twitter. That's what it was. So I guess maybe a week after that email, I get a direct message if I'm in my in my inbox, he slid into my dorm and his line was like, hey, Jonathan Moore is here. I don't know if you saw the news. I just left the priesthood. I'm so happy. How are you? And so I think I have it memorized that I've shared it with my girlfriend so many times.

Honey, you're oddly quiet right now.

So anyhow, we I've learned to let my wife speak.

This is spectacular. So I love that. Yeah.

I don't see anything like, you know, I've got the blessing of Cardinal Dolan. Did he say anything like we're going to be the big guy up above?

No, it was pretty. It was like three lines straight to the voice. Like, I like the priests. I'm so happy. How are you? And I was like, oh, my goodness. And so my initial response, I sent you an email and you didn't read it. So that was my response is like, oh, actually, this is the email. You should send it to this one. So he has like a secret email account.

So then I send it to that. And then that's what started the whole, oh, look, grab lunch. And so that's what happened.

Wait a minute, wait a minute. Let's back up. Let's be OK.

Jonathan, have you received that email that did you see that email that Caitlin sent you? You know, I did not.

And honestly, in two days, I think I received over twenty five thousand emails from the craziest people. And then they were normal people like Caitlin, who sent me emails, most of whom were just reacting in a very, very gracious way about my decision.

But it was you that year and I did not ask her out. I was not a date. I was asking her to lunch.

And those of us in the real world know what you are asking for. We know what I did. Don't try to fool us. Do not try to fool us.

Wait a minute. Are you telling me without having seen her email, you just spontaneously reached out to her? It's I mean, somebody might call that divine intervention.

I mean, it's it's amazing. Providence. Providence. Yeah. I mean, I know I could have been married with ten kids living in Connecticut with a picket fence. He had no idea. I haven't seen him in seven years or six years since then. So, I mean. But I go back to you, Caitlin.

Back to you. So every single friend must have been like, holy, right? Like, I can't I can't do it in front of it.

So I know I do. I couldn't do that because I know what you're going to say. Yeah, they totally thought the same thing. This is perfect.

So they excited, but yeah. Because it's looking he was what, forty six at the time.

He's forty, forty seven is or six. So a great looking never before married forty six year old ethical moral upstanding member of the community who's got outside of being a priest. Great jobs basically emails. He was like hey let's go out. I mean this is every unmarried thirty second day on my own.

He took me out on my birth. I don't know that great, so yeah, it is again, it is the fairy tale my mom used that he was like a couple of years before I met George was like, I really think you have this idea of a fairy tale. I'm not sure it's going to come true. I just want you to be disappointed. Well, she's now come full circle and said, I'm glad you never stopped believing because they really do come true in the form of Jonathan.

So it was a business lunch. Yeah.

Is he's still going with that. OK, here's the most important thing. After the lunch, I did not hear from him for about four weeks or three weeks. He just didn't even follow up. Yeah. So I thought, oh, he just really isn't. He probably is. And you shouldn't be. He should go. And I thought he should go out and date that has been in the priesthood for so long, like go at least get some out there that some oats to.

So that's the way to put it. But yeah, I did not hear from him for many weeks.

So were you thinking, OK, Cardinal Dolan one, are you thinking what were you thinking?

No, because he had already done his interview and I just figured you probably busy. He wasn't interested. I don't know. I might. And this is where your girlfriend step in and they say, do not write to him like that. If a guy like it's like that movie, you know, I forget. But it's like if a guy wants to be with you, he will make it known and so he will make it happen. So I didn't text him.

And then the next time I got a text from him, it was I was like I was with Jeffrey Epstein's victims in federal court downtown being chased by the paparazzi and all the crazy media. And I get this text message from a new phone number and it's hey, John, John Moore is here. Here's my new phone number. I just wanted to check in or something like that. And so that was how we kind of reconnected after that. But I will say after he did reach out to me then, there hadn't been there was never a day that went by where I didn't hear from him.

You were dating. You would always take the time to text or to call or reach out. So it's like I can totally forgive him from there this week. Yes, I know.

It's ancient history. So, John, I'm working with it. Tell me this. Did you date anyone other than Caitlin in your, you know, time off?

I did, yeah. Nobody seriously. I think when you talked about and she encouraged me, actually, she's like the date of although one time she encouraged me and then I actually took her up on it. This is like right before we started going out seriously. And then she's like, oh, you are not actually supposed to do that.

But anyway, that's what we do.

It's it's hard because no one woman really wants a guy she's interested in to be dating around. But in your case, I don't know, like.

Yes, I'm not sure. And what's great about it, she was honestly saying, listen, you I recognize that this is a big change in your life and this is all very fast. And she did encourage me to date other people and I did. So you this is so I know you had your first dinner on July 21st, I did actually read The New York Times profile on you. I'm feigning ignorance on some of these things, but the New York Times told me this is how it's phrased.

And I quote, In October, they turned a serious corner and it was Mr. Morris who suggested they take their relationship to the next level.

So is that when you first slept together, Megan? Again, I might not be able to. I can still hear your confession. I just can't do anything about it. But you definitely can't do anything about my confession.

So we're just hoping that this is your son, not mine. Finally. All right.

Let me ask it this way. Let me ask you this. I know you said you had the girlfriend when you before you got ordained. There was a there was a girl. So, like, I'm going to assume you had the relationship going.

Yeah. I mean, were you were you a forty six year old virgin or not?

Well, I was not. OK, good. All right, good.

So you had a move or two against each other too? Well, like I mean, like I know where you're going.

This is what everybody wants to know.

I mean, it's like I want to know what it was like for Caitlin, too, because I think I'd be a little scared, like there'd be a lot of pressure on me to, like, I don't know, rock his world.

How did that feel? Like like what emotions like I got right now because he called her Kate.

He calls me. Oh, you. Oh, because I just say what's on my mind. And so this is my worst nightmare. But I will be good. And I I've given I did you know that. I know. I know. Meghan Kelly's husband is a great guy named Doug. Excellent. Good friend. Great guy. Excellent. I'm trying to think of about six year olds entirely.

OK, so it went well. Obviously some test was passed because then you got married. All right. So who proposed to whom?

He proposed you surprise me. I was very shocked. How did that happen? He he told me that we're going to go out in San Diego. This is, like you said, after my birthday. So like our one year anniversary of our first date. And he said, we're going to dinner. And I was all dressed up and I brushed my hair, put on makeup. I looked decent, which was a good thing because you can ask me to marry, but I had no idea when.

This week we went up to the Mountain Golf on a golf course overlooking the San Diego Valley in the ocean. And he I was like, oh, I was trying to hug him. And he backed away. And it's like, what is he doing? And then he's got of money. And I was like, oh my gosh. And I thought, oh, my God, oh my God, what's happening? And then he asked me and then I looked at him.

I said, Are you sure? He's like, Yes, I'm sure. Of course I have. I said, OK, all right. If I was. You sure. Yes, of course I'll marry you. But it took me a good I think I had to wrap my mind around it for a moment, but it was it was a sizable wedding day, the happiest day. I couldn't stop smiling. And he had everything prepared. He had a bottle of champagne up there.

He had a photographer hiding in the bushes who claim all the photos and the moment. And then he took me to a lovely French dinner afterwards. So it was really a dream. He did a good job. Well, I had the moves.

Well, I mean, that was a good day, I was kind of referring to different moves, but we'll talk later. Think we ought to take off the record with why done so they will stop.

So so you get married. And it was an amazing, amazing ceremony. You truly were. Both of you look like you were on cloud nine and it happened to be was on October 17th at St. Patrick's Cathedral. I mean, of all places, it is a place of honor in the Catholic Church. It's Cardinal Dolan's church, his pad, and he was there. I think that's so beautiful. I mean, honestly, were you so touched because you wound up getting his blessing?

Yeah, just more transparency. I think we I think the day after we got engaged, we called him and we asked him to marry us. He said yes. And he suggested St. Patrick's Cathedral. And I think later there was some pushback by members of the clergy, probably like how could this be celebrated in this way? And this but and so that as it turned out, the rector of the cathedral, a good friend of ours, Monsignor Ritchie, presided at the wedding, but Cardinal Dolan decided to be there as well.

And we said, Cardinal Dolan, we understand this very public. Why don't we go and meet you in the rectory after afterwards, which is where he resides? And he said, no, I'll meet you outside the church. And we came walking down the aisle right after this ceremony in St. Patrick's Cathedral down the center aisle. And he was there at the back of the aisle at the entrance to the church waiting for us with his mask and his arms outstretched.

And it was it was a very moving moment for sure.

Cardinal Dolan has always reached out to me and made me feel welcome. When we first started dating, John took me over to his apartment. He hosted us and we drank martinis in his living room. And he got to know me and get to know me and ask me questions. And I say to him that you are really good for Christianity and for the church because you make being a Christian look attractive and joyful. There's a joy there when you see him.

And I said, then that's that's you know, that's a good thing for the church. And we always enjoy time with him. And he has made a point to get to know the couple. And that means a lot. And then obviously that was dominated by him being the first to greet us when we were married. So nice.

It's got to be good luck. I mean, there's something in there that's, I don't know, redemptive.

So now the big question is, are we having children, our children in the future, since this was one of your this was one of your reasons to leave. Right? I mean, you've got to be hoping now, John.

We are hoping. And what one of the things I loved about Caitlin was that so I'm forty I'm forty eight now. She's thirty six and thirty seven. And but I was so happy that she she mentioned she was thinking about she would be a news nun someday, like just basically dedicate the news. She wasn't looking to have children and that was kind of a relief to me, even though I was certainly hoping to have children or being open to that idea.

But I what, she wasn't getting married in order to have a kid. So that gave me great confidence. And others in the group gave me great confidence. Was this whole terrible epidemic, pandemic that we're going through and that we were, you know, spending much more time together than we would have otherwise. And so our relationship really sped up without getting into details like that. It really sped up honestly, because we spent, you know, three, four months together all the time.

And so I was like, what? I actually like being with her, and I think hopefully she said the same thing about me. So that that's kind of the silver lining in our own relationship. But the answer to your question is, yes, we're very open to having children. And we are we've only been married two months, so stop pressing the issue. But Caitlin, Caitlin was was adopted from Korea and we went last December back to Korea, back for the first time.

And she had been there since she was three months old. And we went to the very adoption agency where she had been given by her birth mother and where she spent the first days of her life in this little room where that little room is still there and it's full of these little babies under three months old who have not even been placed in foster care yet.

And Caitlin was able to hold the baby from her town who was there waiting for adoption. So that's also an option.

Oh, that would be that would be so beautiful. And I feel like there is a reason this happened.

Maybe that's it. Maybe it's somebody who's coming in the future. Maybe it's just the love between the two of you, which is such an uplifting force. I've said before, when you marry the right person, it can be such a stabilizing sound foundation for the rest of your life. I just I think a lot of people don't realize if you have a great relationship, what an injection of joy it can be into your world. You know, and the opposite is true, too.

But we'll stay on the positive for now. Like, if you've got it, you nurture it. It can stay nurture. Doug and I have been together now for I don't know, we met in 06.

Rates are going on fifteen years and it's awesome. And it doesn't even require that much work, just a little nurturing, just like lenses, little nurse nurturing and a few other things we'll get into over the wine.

Oh can you tell this story. You guys have to tell this story.

It was about you went to church and I don't know Jonathan, you were doing something at the church and you were like taking too long. Can you tell the story?

Oh, why? It's the community. It's Tommy's first communion. Honey, tell story. You can't say it with a certain. Yeah, no.

Yes, you have to. You must. Yes, I insist that I do that with the radiuses though.

I give you a no no. I have an explicit warning. I have an explicit warning label on my show.

You can say whatever you want and I have your permission. OK, I am totally fine. OK, here we go.

I never said this publicly but so yeah, we're at my nephew's first communion and it's one of Caitlin's first time meeting my family, you can imagine, but they're thinking like, oh, here he is after all these years in the priesthood, who is she? And so Caitlin grew up evangelical. So in the Catholic Church, if you're if you're not Catholic, when you go up to communion, you don't receive the ideas. If you don't believe the same thing the Catholic Church believes about communion, you shouldn't receive intellectual integrity, I guess.

And so but what you can do is cross your arms over your chest and the priest will give a blessing on your forehead. So Caitlin was very eager to do that. And later I found out she was great. She knew that she knew how to do it because she had watched it in Rome when she was there covering the the conclave for Good Morning America where we met. So she and I were sitting together. She marches out into the aisle.

I let her go ahead of me and she heads towards, you know, through the communion line. And as she's she's now about four feet away from the priest who's giving out communion. And instead of what a normal person would do, a normal person who knows, like how to get the blessing would do it, who would go walk right up to the priest, cross the arms and wait for him to get the blessing. She like this was like this wasn't Taco Bell or like this was like he was a fly by.

She walked right across her arm, walked right past the priest. And he's like looking for her with his arms stretched out, trying to catch her to give a blessing. She has no clothes. She comes up the aisle and I look I get back into the pew. My whole family probably saw her do this fly by. And and I said, what was that? And she looked at me. She's in these beautiful high heels in this beautiful dress.

And she looks at me and she says. Didn't fucking tell me what I was supposed to do or something like that.

Was a little bit different, but I don't even feel comfortable saying it here. But you get the message like I'm you didn't effing tell me what I was supposed to do. You effing whatever.

I'm like, what what were you marching up there for? Like, you knew what you were doing. But anyway, me.

Well, F.J. is like, by the way, the wafers taste delicious.

Let's rewind to get that part of the story.

You don't know you don't know how good they are or what you're missing. So. Oh, by the way. So you establish where you are not going to convert out of Catholicism. But Caitlin, is there any chance you're going to jump in?

I know I wouldn't completely write off or think about it. I'll pray about it. When we go to church on Sundays, we go to this great church and hear a neighborhood that has very good music and preaching. Good Hobley. So, yeah, I but John never made that like when we were dating, it was never like the condition of dating or anything that he needed my Catholic. And he likes to celebrate my diverse background and where I come from and.

Yeah. So we'll see.

Correct me if I'm wrong, John, but I thought the rule was you can you can marry a non Catholic, but the kids need to be Catholic.

Yeah. And Caitlin signed off on that. Basically the idea of being married that the the non Catholic partners agrees to for recognize the fact that the Catholic partner has promised to raise the children Catholic.

So this is in no matter how many sins I commit on this earth, I feel like when I get up there and St. Peter's trying to give me a hard time, I'm going to be like, look, I made you three little Catholics.

That's all I want to hear.

Thank you and welcome here. Your mansion.

That's right. So now wait. So what? So professionally, what's next for you, John? You're still at ABC, Caitlin. So but what are you what are you doing now to pay the bills since now you do have to. Thank you. No more poverty.

Yeah, well, no, actually there really is poverty. Now, if you don't work the action, it turns out you're poor in the Catholic Church. If you're a priest and you don't work, you just keep your job and you still get paid and people suffer. But that's another issue. Yes. So I look at different things. I look at, you know, promoting hedge funds. I look at selling vacuum cleaners. I looked at teaching high school religion.

I looked at a lot of different things. And I really have fallen into something that I absolutely love and that is in the industry. We call it executive coaching or leadership development, but it's working with people across industries and even people who are not specifically in business to help them basically make good decisions in the workplace primarily. So it's not life coaching. Life coaching would be more like a kind of a low level counselor, something I what I do is I get involved with people who are entrepreneurs and I say, I'm going to work with you for a year.

And that's kind of the minimal thing that we do with a one year retainer. And I am with you as a partner. And the first step is help to get you to get to know yourself better. And we use very specific personality assessment tools in order to do that. So the first part is self knowledge, self assessment, and then the second part is self management and then apply leadership skills. But basically it's people and I've seen this over the last few months, but people told me this the most expensive decisions we make are the decisions that we make.

And we're afraid when we're anxious, when we're jealous, when we're insecure, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Right. Or when we're greedy. And the best and sometimes most profitable decisions that we make are the ones that we make. We're coming from a secure position personally, and we're making a decision where we need we've gotten some advice from somebody that we trust. And so I'm working with executives and their immediate leadership teams to make good decisions and to give them courage to go ahead and to execute on those decisions.

And I just loved it. So the firm is worse and worse. And so it's worse and worse. And dotcom is where you can find us. And it's just been a blessing. I'm doing it little by little. I'm also still working with Fox News as an analyst, as a as a contributor. But I'm just loving this, working with people who have high impact, who say I'm going to invest. And having somebody who I can confide in, who I can trust and together we will make good decisions and I think it always pays off.

Well, it sounds perfect for you. I know in your letter announcing that you were leaving the priesthood, you said, I hope you are able to hear the newfound joy I have in my heart, despite my fear of stepping into the unknown. You recognize some will not understand. I'm OK with that to please pray for me. I did. Millions of others did. So far, so good. Listen. Merry Christmas to the two of you. On the first Christmas you will have together as husband and wife.

And just so many blessings to you both. Thank you for being with me.

I guess in today's episode was brought to you in part by Bloom Xbox Farm. Fresh flowers delivered right to your door. Go to Bloom Xbox Bell, MCI Box Dotcom and enter Code EMK to get 15 percent off and free shipping. OK, on our next show, which is going to be Monday, brand new programming. You're going to love it. Everyone's abandoning you during the holiday season, not us. We've got new program coming every show, no repeats, all new interviews.

We are going to talk to Jerry Springer. This is an amazing exchange. He's got the most diverse and interesting history. Not only, of course, has he had this talk show for all these years, almost 30 years. But, you know, he was the youngest mayor in America at the time. He's got a long political history. And somehow that parlayed into him doing shows that are entitled I Married a Horse. He's very open about that transition, how it happened, what it was like, whether he thinks his show was a force for good, his arrest thirty years ago for solicitation of prostitution.

We'll get into that. And best of all, he will recount for you that time. He was five years old and stood on the deck of the Queen Mary coming to America from England, looking at the Statue of Liberty and asking his mother, what does she mean? What does that mean in the answer he got, you will love. See you then. Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No bias, no agenda and no fear.

The Megan Kelly Show is a devil may care media production in collaboration with Red Ventures.