Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. I just want to thank you, first of all, for tuning in. You know what else I want to thank you for? I want to thank you for taking the time today to listen to something that could improve your life. I think that's pretty cool. If you're one of the, literally, hundreds of thousands of new listeners to this podcast, I want to take a moment and welcome you to the Mel Robbins podcast family. I'm Mel Robbins. I'm a New York Times best-selling author and one of the world's leading experts on confidence and motivation. I'm on a mission to do one thing. I want to inspire and empower you with tools and the expert resources that you deserve to create a better life. One of my all-time favorite things to do on this podcast This is to introduce you to the people that have changed my life. Today, I am honored to welcome the single most popular expert that we've ever had back to the Mel Robbins podcast. Today, you're going to meet somebody that is a really big deal for me. Her name is Dr.

Romani Diversula, and she's helped me do a couple of things. First of all, she's helped me understand the topic of narcissism. She's also helped me heal from the damage that I've experienced from having narcissistic relationships in my life. She's taught me, and I think this is the biggest piece, to thrive. To thrive even as I have to deal with narcissistic personality types in my day-to-day life now, like you probably have to, too. Dr. Romani has appeared on this podcast twice, and I cannot wait to welcome her back to introduce her to you if you've never heard from her before, because this is the first time that she's been back in over a year. Dr. Romani is a licensed clinical psychologist. She practices in Los Angeles. She's also one of the world's most respected and renowned experts and researchers on topic of narcissism. She hosts the award-winning podcast, Navigating Narcism. Today, she's here to talk about her brand new book. It will be a runaway bestseller. She has brand new research included in the book. The book is entitled It's Not You. I love that title. I love that title because when you're dealing with narcissism, you think you're the problem.

She's here to teach you, It's not you. More importantly, she's going to teach you, How can you heal from narcissistic relationships? Because, boy, can they do damage? To Today, she's back with new insights, with research, and with the tools and strategies that has earned her a global following. Because there's so much to cover about the topic of narcissism, I want to say a couple of things. First of all, if you think you know everything there is to know about narcissism, guess what? You don't. Every time you listen to Dr. Romani promise you, you will learn something new. Plus, you're in a very different place. There are different people in your life, so I guarantee you you're going to hear something today that is relevant to with you right now. We're going to cover absolutely everything that you need to know based on the research to understand the topic of narcissism and to be able to spot a narcissistic personality style in people in your life. Dr. Romani is also going to walk you through new research about the four myths on narcissism, and she's going to talk about narcissism and her research in the context of relationships, friendships, work, and family.

Understanding this personality style is critical so that you can stay in your power no matter who you're dealing with. Before we jump into this amazing topic, you ask me all the time, Hey, Mel, thank you so much for supporting me. How can I support you? Very, very simple. Please, wherever you're listening or watching to this show right now, please subscribe. Please follow the show, especially if you're on YouTube, hit subscribe. It truly helps a show like this. It allows me to bring amazing guests like Dr. Romani to you at zero cost. As you listen today and you gain all of this transformational information, please be generous with it. Please share this with anybody in your life who really needs to hear this information from Dr. Romani. One share can change the trajectory of someone else's life, so thank you in advance for doing that. Now, without further ado, Dr. Romani Diversa. I am so glad that you're here. It's so great to see you.

It's so wonderful to see you every time.

Well, I know that our audience is going to gobble up absolutely everything you have to say because you are our number one favorite expert of our audience, of every single person that we have ever had on the show. You are also the expert with the highest number of YouTube views You are the person who has driven the most questions to our inbox. We have a form on our website that is Ask a Question. In that form, in the DMs, and you are somebody that gets our listeners just coming back and wanting more and more and more. I'm really excited that you are here to talk about your new work every single time that I sit down with you, I show up and go, Oh, I think I know what narcissism is. I've talked to Dr. Romney before. I get this, but I always learn something new from you. What I'm really excited about is your brand new book has new research, new ways to think about narcissism, to spot narcissism. We're going to cover all of that today. Thank you, thank you, thank you for being here and helping all of us.

Thank you so much. First of all, Mel, thank you. I'm humbled. I'm honored. I'm going to say something interesting to you. I'm almost a little saddened that it was the number one episode. I'm like, I'm in a pipe. But you know what I'm saddened is that that's how many people are being hurt. Every time I think we've dug deep into this, the stories, the experiences. Because I have clients, for example, who have been in narcissistic marriages, relationships, 40, 45, 50 years. They've said to me, nothing like this was being said 20 years ago, 25 years ago, nothing. Maybe I might have taken different action at that point. They said, So it's really bittersweet to hear this now. They feel less crazy, but they're still suffering and taking actions a little different now. My point is that so many people don't know. I think everyone knows. Then I meet someone who says, This was a revelation. Like I said, that's why I'm humbled, I'm grateful, but I'm sad.

What's going through my mind right now is that this is my personal introduction to narcissism in terms of what you just said. The first time anybody said to me that there was a person in my life who is still in my life that is exhibiting the classic textbook behavior patterns, repeated behavior patterns of somebody who's narcissistic, was my own therapist. I was talking to her about my anxiety and my grief and my confusion about this lifelong relationship with this particular person. My therapist just flat out said, Well, you know they are on the narcissistic personality disorder spectrum. I'm like, What are you talking about? What do you mean? She started to tick off all of these classic behavior patterns that I always thought were representative that there was something wrong with me. Then, of course, I met you weeks later, and you and I have started this conversation about narcissism. Today, where I want to start is just let's cover first, what is narcissism? Because the word is thrown around all over the place. You are the world's leading expert. You are now piloting all of this academic research around narcissism. What do you want the person listening to know about narcissism?

Narcissism is a personality style. I think it's actually really important for us to break out of this conversation of it as a disorder because that's really muddying the waters. We really don't get to say someone has a disorder unless they've sat in a room with a clinician and that clinician has observed them and assessed them and issued a diagnosis. Where a lot of people get pushback is even sometimes a therapist will say, Well, you shouldn't say your husband has narcissistic personality disorder unless you've spoken to their therapist, which obviously they haven't, and obviously the husband hasn't been in therapy. Let's call it what it is, which is a personality style, and let's move the sword or piece off to the side. Narcism is a personality style. It would be considered a maladaptive personality style because it's not good for relationships. It's a rigid personality style, like most unhealthy personality style, where there's not a lot of flexibility It's not something that changes. Personality in and of itself is pretty rigid for all of us. You have a personality, I have a personality. They can only change so much. But with someone who's narcissistic, I like to view yours or mine as maybe Really, really solid jello.

It's a little bit of flexibility.

I thought you were talking about my waist.

Yeah, got it. Got a whole lot of it right here. But the narcissistic person is like cement. There's really no move. Now, let's talk about what it is. It's a personality style that's characterized by variable empathy. I want us to talk about empathy, Mel, because that empathy part gets a little bit dicey with narcissistic folks. Variable empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, arrogance, selfishness, the need for validation and admiration, a need for control, a motivation by power, dominance. Again, that need for control. They envy other people or they think other people envy them. They very much often live in fantasy worlds. That's how it looks. All of that is around a core of insecurity. That insecurity is this chronic sense of shame that's almost volcanically trying to come up. The entitlement, the grandiosity, the arrogance all acts as the armor to keep that tamped down. As a result, narcissistic people are very reactive when they perceive criticism, when they're frustrated, when they're disappointed. Why? Because it means they're not perfect. It means they're not the grandiose ideal that they've created for themselves to protect themselves from that cauldron of shame that's always bubbling up. That is narcissism. The reason I put a pin in that empathy piece, they're not devoid of empathy.

They're not psychopathic. In fact, the challenge becomes, you know narcissistic people, I know narcissistic people. They're actually really good at, if you will, faking the empathy. Their empathy is quite performative. It's very transactional. Narcissistic people know that empathy sells, that empathy creates social connections, and above all else, that empathy gets them supply. People like people with empathy. Like, Oh, this empathy thing is working out for folks. So I'm going to try this. I'm worried about your feelings. How are you feeling? You okay? So they can turn it on long enough to draw someone in or convince other people that they're empathic. They're able to almost use it as a tool, as a tactic as a stratagm, in some cases even as a weapon. That's why I'm saying it's not fair to say they have no empathy or even low empathy. It's variable empathy. When they feel good, when their star is rising, when things are going the way they want, they are very empathic. That's why you will see, for example, a spouse may go up to their partner who had a great day at work. They killed it. The partner is like, Hey, tell me about your day.

How was it? That person is thinking like, Oh, God. Well, I got to tell you, I had a little bit of a hard day. How can I help you? How can I help you? So that's the Wednesday. On Friday, that same spouse thinks, Well, he was so empathic on Wednesday. I'm going to tell him how this problem is going at work. Well, that same narcissistic spouse didn't have such a good day on Friday. Why are you telling me your problems? Do you think I have time for your stuff? All you do is complain about work. That flip from Mr. I'm going to give you advice, and I believe in you on Wednesday, to, Why are you wasting my I am on Friday. That flip flop is the narcissistic relationship. On Wednesday, he seemed like one heck of an empathic guy.

Let's start with the narcissistic personality style versus somebody who's just vain or conceited. What is the difference between somebody who's a little self-centered versus somebody that truly has a narcissistic personality style?

It's such a great question, especially in the era of social media. Social media has brought the conceit and the vanity up to a level that's unparalleled in human history. You and I are old enough. Do you remember back in the day we take a camera on vacation and we try to get that picture of us in front of the monument? Then we had a lot of pictures with just our eyes and just our mouth. We didn't really try to take selfies because more often then we had to get the film developed. Now I've wasted four of these precious... Yeah, so you get that. Now this idea of the selfie, the performative self, the branded self, and then how much we're looked at all the time, not only by ourselves, but by everybody else, has taken vanity and almost turned it into something normative. We got to keep that in mind. We have to view also narcissism on a spectrum, Mel. It's not an either or. It's not that you're a narcissistic or you're not. At the mild end of the spectrum, that's where the vanity hangs out. These are what I call more Instagram narcissists.

Lots of selfies. Look at me. Isn't my dinner interesting? Isn't what I did this weekend? Oh, so interesting. Please look at me. Don't you want to hear my review of the movie? No, Siskill and Ebert, I don't. You don't know things. Please stop. But that's the world we're in. Those people are annoying. They're immature, they're emotionally stunted. They're probably not the person you're going to go to on the day you get really bad news and need support. They're those people. Are they harmful? You may not want to be married to them. It would stink if they were your parent. This is the parent who is your friend, but was never really there with emotional depth. If you had a significant relationship with one of those mild, superficial, narcissistic folks, it's certainly not good for you. If they're your friend, I always say, have a few of those mild narcissists around. They're great to have for a party. Pop them out then. When we get to the moderate and severe ends, obviously, it's a different game. Where vanity and superficiality become narcissism is when we get into those core elements of the empathy issues and above all else, entitlement.

There's some really interesting research that came out in 2017 about the phenomenology of narcissism. What I loved about this research is that the one pillar that is universal in all narcissism is entitlement. If that vain person, look at me, look at my breakfast, look at my shirt, look at my this, but they're never treating a server rudely. They wait their turn in line. They don't think they're more special than someone else. I'm going to tell you now, I don't think they're narcissistic. That vain person can just be superficial, maybe a little rapid, maybe a little immature. But if they're not doing those sorts of inter-personally antagonistic things, not a That makes me feel so much better because I like the distinction.

It makes sense to me that somebody can be really annoying and vain, and certainly social media is fueling a lot of this. But that's different than being harmful.

Very different.

If I think through everybody in my life that I personally believe has a narcissistic personality style, the entitlement piece is there. Yes. That there is that sense of I deserve better, I deserve this, this sense of being wronged or offended if your breakfast is taking too long or offended if you don't do what they want you to do. And so that distinction is incredibly helpful.

Yes, it's everything because the entitled person doesn't just feel special. They have to be more special than you. Does that make sense? There's a difference.

That's also something brand new that I've just learned from you. Yeah, that's entitlement. That distinction of entitlement. I think it's particularly helpful when you're dealing with somebody in your family Yes. Or dealing with somebody that you're in a relationship with, that there's entitlement that is directed at other people, like somebody that is the bartender at a bar or somebody that is working at an airport and the line is moving too slow and they're aiming it at them. But I think it is profoundly disorienting when it gets aimed at you and it's a family member or it's a spouse. One other thing I'd love to tease out because we're talking about this as being on a spectrum and that is a personality style, is that every time I talk to you, I start to wonder, Oh, shit. Do I have narcissistic personality style? Is this something in everybody? Is it normal to worry that you are narcissistic? Does it mean you're narcissistic if you think you're narcissistic?

A lot of people grapple with this. It's always like we say, the ones who are grappling and worrying that they're narcissistic, usually aren't the ones who are narcissistic. No one thing that I mention, the entitlement or the grandiosity or the arrogance or the empathy deficits or the vanity or the selfishness or the admiration seeking. None of those by themselves define narcissism. A carrot isn't soup. A carrot is a carrot. It might be something in a soup, but by itself, it's a carrot. By itself, arrogance is arrogance. When you put it in there with the chicken and the broth and the celery and the stuff, now you got a soup. We have to remember that you got to have the whole soup. I personally, Mel, and this is a little bit controversial. I don't believe in healthy narcissism. I know some people use that term. I'm not a fan because by definition, narcissism is unhealthy.

Why is it unhealthy?

It's unhealthy because it puts you at It harms with other people. It harms other people. Here's where it gets interesting. If somebody has a personality trait that in the world, the way it's organized now, is more likely to make them more successful, more wealthy, narcissistic people are more likely to get romantic partners. They're more likely to be in leadership. All the things that we think are success, narcissistic people have. So you think, Sign me up. The problem is this whole stuff, that's narcissism, harms other people. I, as a psychologist, and I feel very grounded in this, we are a social species. We exist in social groups. That's something that harms that connective tissue is not healthy for a human being. I don't care if you have a lot of money. So I'm going to say there is no such thing as healthy narcissism. When we talk about it, people are usually pulling out a strand like assertiveness. Assertiveness is healthy, right? But raging at other people because you didn't get your way, that's not healthy. I don't believe in healthy narcissism. I believe in healthy self-advocacy. I believe in healthy assertiveness. I believe in healthy sense of self.

But when people stop and wonder, Am I narcissistic? I really ask them, Do you stop and consider how your words affect other people? Do you stop and concern yourself with the feelings of other people? Every so often putting ourselves first doesn't make us a narcissist. Telling a friend like, I can't come to your birthday I have worked 16-hour days every day this week. I love you. I'd love to take you out to dinner next week. Your friend may be mad at you. I'm not saying your friend's going to be like, Good for you for your self-care. Then you say, I am so sorry. I am aware, but I can't do this. I'm pushing myself too hard, and you really make a concerted effort to create the time with a friend. I don't consider that narcissistic.

Here's what I am thinking about right now is that if you're self-reflective and you are a a reasonable, empathetic, rational human being who's doing their best, if you're in a relationship with somebody who's narcissistic, it almost seems like the default is to explain away the behaviors that you're ticking off. Oh, they're raging at this person because they're tired. Oh, they're this way because of that. Oh, now they're being nice to me. How do you get to a point in your life where you can say to yourself, this is definitely somebody who has this narcissistic personality style? Is it really like looking for the entitlement piece? Because I personally have really struggled with this because I am so quick to explain away the behavior.

Okay, but here's where you can do something that I think is probably one of the greatest balancing acts that if everyone could learn this, could actually help them a lot. You can explain away the behavior and understand that they're narcissistic at the same time. One thing I talk about in the new book you've talked, referenced, is this idea of multiple truths. Nowhere does that matter more than when you're in a narcissistic relationship, that multiple things can simultaneously be true. They did have a bad day at work because they didn't get the promotion they wanted, and that's what's driving their anger. The way they're treating me is unacceptable. Those two things are true. That person's behavior, we could explain it. Again, the minutiae of it, it's not acceptable. Does that make sense? Just because we can explain something doesn't make it acceptable. I think one of the dangers of psychology is we can explain things, but we sometimes think, Well, if you can explain it, then it's okay. We have to be able to hold in consciousness those two things. This is why they did it, and it is absolutely unacceptable.

I think that is the biggest breakthrough idea that I hope you listening to Dr. Romney right now take away from this, that if you look at another human beings behavior and how it impacts you to separate yourself from that behavior, that you didn't cause it, You're not responsible for it. Just because X, Y, Z happened, how they are erupting or how they are treating you is not okay.

That's hard. Yes, that's really, really hard because the other thing we're also taught is that Again, the world of therapy is partly guilty for this is, what are you bringing to this interaction? What part are you... Think of couples therapy. What is all of couples therapy? Well, there's two people in the room, so two people must be partly responsible. I'm like, No, not so much. I suppose if somebody's responsible because they're standing in the room, maybe I'll give them 5% on that. But beyond that, this idea that one person is using the other human being as their pacifier and punching bag, I can't get behind that. They're using you to regulate. You serve no more function. They don't see you as a human being. They see you as someone they can go off on, and now they've learned you ain't going anywhere. You have to make that judgment. Is this acceptable? In fact, if we look at the work on self-compassion, Kristin Neff's work, one thing I really love about it, and I brought to bear in working with survivors of narcissistic abuse is so many survivors of narcissistic abuse are so far down the rabbit hole of maybe this is all I deserve, maybe I'm to blame, this is probably my fault.

They believe the gaslighting, they've internalized all the manipulation. Is I'll say, Let's step back. I hear you. Now, I want you to take apart this episode you just shared with me, and I want you to answer the question. And by now, when the client, I know they're friends and things like, Would you be okay if this happened to Mary? If you watched this happen to Mary, would you sign off on this? And I'm invariably like, No, God, Mary. Okay, so you have just said this behavior is unacceptable. Then we work backwards from there.

Again, you do not disappoint Dr. Romani. This is a tough subject, but I always feel empowered when I listen to you dig into this topic. So thank you, thank you, thank you. And you know what? I know as you're listening to Dr. Romani, you feel the same way. I want to pause, hear a word from our sponsors because they are the ones that allow me to bring you this incredible episode at zero cost. Stay with us. Don't go anywhere. I'll be waiting for you after a short break. Welcome back. I'm your friend Mel Robbins, and I'm so glad that you are still listening because Dr. Romani is just getting started. She is cranking it up. So Dr. Romani, can we talk a little bit about personality styles? How does this happen? Is somebody just born When does personality develop? How do you become narcissistic?

The theoretical focus on where does narcissism come from largely is this idea of there's two paths, Mel. One path is a path of adversity. The Path to Adversity. The Path to Adversity would argue that narcissism as a personality style is a post-traumatic presentation. These are kids who experience neglect, invalidation, maybe frank physical or sexual abuse, that they really, really had a rough start, that that early adversity can be one path to narcissism.

Are you saying that there is a whole field of research and belief that childhood trauma creates the narcissistic personality style? I can. That it literally is almost like a symptom of complex post-traumatic stress disorder?

Exactly. Here's where it gets tricky. The vast majority of children who grow up with trauma, neglect, and invalidation do not develop narcissism. They may develop complex trauma. They may develop nothing at all. Anxiety, the standard presentations we'd expect. The vast majority don't become narcissistic. You might be wondering, what's path to?

I am.

Path to is the overindulgence, you're more special than every other kid. This is really interesting. That's Coming out of a young researcher named Eddie Brummelmans in Amsterdam. Really promising work. There's other folks doing similar work here in the States, but the work out of the Netherlands is what really has caught my attention. What he writes about, his research group writes about is that it's this idea of telling the child not just that they're special, all kids are special, you're more special than the other kids. Basically, the indoctrination of entitlement in a child, you're the most special child. These kids, but you're the most special child. That that seems to be a pathway that even in children starts to shift towards a more entitled style of thinking that then is probably going to get shaped. Who's more likely to do that? An entitled narcissistic parent. The parents aren't there to teach them how to self-soothe, how to hold their emotional states, how to be present with them. They want their kid to be a winner. You're more special. What we also see is what I call the performing pony model of where we get narcissism. The kid who's loved when they're the soccer star, the kid who's loved when they're headed towards Harvard, that kid, the success kid, that kid knows.

The first time I decide not to do soccer or if I stop getting on my toes on this ballet floor, I'm toast. That child recognizes that they are loved for what they do and not for who they are. That is another pathway to narcissism. Those kids tend to become more of the grandiose narcissists. Mel, I'll tell you this as a clinician, you're going to make a lot more headway with the kids with those backstories and adversity because you can use trauma-informed methods and actually make a dent. Those grandiose kids, forget it. You're not making a dent in those people therapeutically.

Is there an age range that this happens during?

Again, when we think of the core of social and emotional development, a lot of this is happening prepubescent. Around puberty is where the baton gets handed to the peers. That's where peers- So it's like 12? 12, 13. Got you. I mean, that's why for parents listening to this, this is the heavy lifting from 0 to 13. Safety, consistency, emotional availability, teaching children to self-soothe, giving validity to their emotions, not making your child feel that they're loved for what they do, allowing your child to feel special as part of a world full of special people, not more special, not behaving in an entitled manner around your kids.

I keep thinking about something that happened a week ago. We were away celebrating my mom's 75th, and we were checking into a hotel. There's this family in front of us, and they're checking in. Dad is yelling at the staff behind the counter. It's right after a big holiday weekend. The rooms are not ready. He's blustering. Mom has got nine-inch long nails. Tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, sweatsuit, golden goose glitter sneakers. We're talking probably a $1,500 outfit on a three-year-old with the labels all over it. The three-year-old is on a phone right next to them staring at social media. As I sit here and hear you talk about the two different lanes and that something is getting modeled between the dad yelling, the mom ignoring, the kid all over social media at the age of three dressed as a a full board for design or clothes, it makes me worried about the state of society. Is narcissism on the rise?

There's the big question. There's a Dr. Keith Campbell. He's a professor at University of Georgia. His work on narcissism, to me, is some of the best out there. He wrote a book called The Narcissism Epidemic Back in 2012 with Jean Twenge, and they were suggesting that it was on the rise at that point. Here's what him and I were noticing. I was noticing as a clinician, he was noticing it as a researcher. He's like, The grandiose narcissism, interestingly, is where it's always been. What social media has done is it's given grandiose narcissism a interesting platform and place to live. But the vulnerable narcissists, their victimhood, their anger, their sullenness, their mean comments on social media, that has shot up. Because those vulnerable narcissistic folks are seeing that other people have stuff and they don't have it. So they're seething. And all this seething we're seeing in the world is the vulnerable narcissistic people have gone off like a wildfire. And that's what the new problem is, to be quite honest. That's how I see it, is that the vulnerable narcissism is really the problem. That victimize, failure to launch. I have all these big fantasies, and why isn't everything going my way?

And how come everyone else gets a lucky break and nothing ever happens for me? Angry, angry, angry, troll, troll, troll, mean, mean, mean. That's what's on the rise. I think that the grandiose piece is probably, Oh, there's always been that group of people. Here's what I don't believe. I think if you have a person with a healthy personality and they're mucking around on social media, they understand the difference. Does that make sense? They're able to say, This is fun, but I think people who already have that personality stuff churning in their adolescents, social media is the match you're throwing on the gasoline. But with no gasoline, the match is just going to fizzle out. So all this stuff, the social emotional development, the three-year-old with the designer duds, that's the kid who wear that plus the social media and the messages from the world and the non-emotionally-attuned parents and the parents modeling entitlement, that's the person who is going to love, bomb, and destroy someone's life in about 25 years.

Well, this is super helpful to have the distinction grandiose because I I can think of a million examples of people that just display it. It's out there. I find the vulnerable narcissist that you were just talking about, this deep-seated anger- And victimhood. And victimhood to be really fascinating. I can see how a deep-seated anger and victimhood then leads to this sense of entitlement that might not be displayed on social media, but then gets aimed at At your family, at your friends, at your colleagues, at your loved ones. As somebody's listening to this, and this always happens when you and I talk, there's usually one of two reactions, which is, Am I a nurse? The second one is, Oh, my God, you're describing my dad. You're describing my son. You're describing the person I'm dating. How would you counsel someone, if you're having this epiphany for the first time, what are some things like, you see these three things, we got it for sure.

What you see in vulnerable narcissistic people is a chronic grudge. That's what it is. It's the chronic grudge. A lot of it comes out in political conversations, but it could even be like, That neighbor, your brother. It's grudge. It's a constant grudge and grievance. There's The grudge and grievance is as though even these random things that happen to be happening in the world seem to be targeted at them. That takes us to the second thing, which is this chronic sense of suspiciousness. People are out to get them, that bad things are negatively targeting them. They're just literally a hair away from seeming paranoid. It really feels as they almost feel like people are out to get them, but it's not quite that bad, but it's this sense of, he's always trying to make me mad. I'm like, no, I think he just parked his car there. I don't think he was thinking about it. This is a good parking spot, right? But they're thinking that the person parked the car there to piss them off. They make the person's parked car about them. Does that make sense?

Absolutely. I feel like I'm having a trauma response as I hear you describe this because grudge and this edge- And the suspiciousness. And that it's happening to me. It's a traffic. It's about me. So many people have moved here and the traffic is really terrible and somehow it's personal to me. Or you're too busy at work, and so you never come to see me.

That's right. Then the third piece is that victimhood. One thing that Keith Campbell and I talked about, which is it's the sense of the grandiose narcissists, they'll have a big dream, and it's big, and they'll do the thing. It might even succeed. In fact, I think all the big things in our lives, the big, big stuff, Probably there's a lot of grandiose narcissism behind that. The vulnerable narcissistic people talk about the big thing, and they never take the step. They never take the step because everyone's against them. I got the idea for the biggest book ever. It's the biggest book ever. Wait till you hear about this. It's going to be so great. Not one word to paper. Like, Oh, you know what, Mel? You got so many easy breaks. It was really easy for you. My idea is way bigger than your idea, Mel. But I'm not going to waste my time with these publisher never. They're not able to see how great I am. It's that. Does that make sense? They're going to put you down. They're going to lift themselves up. They never do the thing, but they talk as though they are doing it.

That's a real hallmark of vulnerable narcissism. And ultimately, it looks like failure to launch.

Can you explain triangulation? That was a term that my therapist used that really had me go ding, ding, ding, ding, ding grudge and that feeling of the world is against me. But can you explain that behavior of triangulation?

So triangulation is a power move. There's another piece, remember, about vulnerable narcissism is there's a lot of passive aggression there. Passive aggression is a real signature characteristic of vulnerable narcissism and things like the silent treatment and all of that. What passive, aggressive, and grudgy people do is they talk through other people. They talk through a third party. At times, it can feel gossipy, but instead of coming directly to you, talking directly to you, they will plant all these victimized seeds in other people who are fertile targets. Those people might even sympathize with the vulnerable narciss, making the person who should have been on the other side of the direct communication, the villain. By doing this, they actually, in some strange way, lift themselves up. Everyone's like, Oh, I'm so sorry. That person should have been more supportive. I'm so sorry this happened to you. Let me see if I could talk to them. Then that person who you may actually have a good relationship with is now coming to you and you're like, What? Now you're having friction with the messenger, but the messenger is really just carrying the bag of grudge that the vulnerable narcissist gave them.

When this happens, you can imagine where this really happens is workplaces. One vulnerable can upend a really good work team.

Can you give us some examples?

A great example of that would be you've got the victimized vulnerable narcissist who doesn't want to work as hard as everyone else, who feels like things should come easier, who might even be jealous of other people in the workplace that are leveling up. They complain to other people. Vulnerable narciss is savvier than you think because they're paying attention to who the fertile targets are, who's willing to sit with them, who's willing to say, No, you're really smart, too. I I could totally see this working out for you. But what they're doing, though, too, is they're raising suspicion about, oftentimes, may the mission and vision of the organization or the people who are succeeding in the organization. What it does is it ruins the sense of collaboration. It would be that person who's just like, Can you believe her? I don't know. I'm not such a big fan of her. Then they keep talking and talking, enough people start to agree, and then you'll see eye rolling at meeting, or you might see people just... A lot of that stuff. Then people are noticing like, Gosh, it feels more intense here than it always was. But it was that one vulnerable, narcissistic person who didn't want to do the work, who was always complaining, who was very entitled, but in this grudging way.

People felt guilty about it, felt pity for them. Now all of a sudden, the energy in the room has changed. In a family, forget about it.

I feel like you're describing a family and a parent that then goes to a sibling who's mad at the other sibling. That sibling becomes a messenger. Friend groups, where the person who feels left out goes to a friend to complain that they feel sad so that the friend then goes to the person organizing the party, so and so feels left out.

Wow. Then what it does, though, is when we really see triangulation at the highest levels, the narcissistic person is almost like a puppeteer pulling the strings. They get to be above it all, and they get to watch all the chaos that's starting to ensue. So what was once a healthy family, healthy work group, healthy group of friends, is now more fractured, centralizing more power in the narcissistic person.

I feel so grateful that you're here, and I'm sure as you're listening, you feel grateful as well. And one of the things that I loved about your new book, It's Not You, is that you've got these very visual examples, and you also spend a bit of time talking about the TikTok-ification. I don't even know if that's a word, but basically what TikTok has done to spread misinformation about narcissism. We're going to dig into all of that after a short word of our sponsors. Please stay with us. You're not going to want to miss this, and I'll be waiting for you after a short break. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. I am here with Dr. Romani Diversla. I'm so glad you have tuned in today because we are diving deep into the topic of narcissism. So Dr. Romani, does the person that has a narcissistic personality style, are they conscious that they're doing this, or is it this immature emotional stunted growth inside them that means that When they feel triggered or they feel that sense of grudge or the entitlement or the insecurity rises up, that the emotion floods, and this is just what they do.

This is where some people make the argument that narcissism is a trauma response. They're very quickly trying to feel safe. As the shame bubbles up, the only way I can describe... Can I use a gross reference?

You can do it. You are the world's leading expert.

Do it. This is really gross and down market, but I'm going to say it. If you've ever had terrible diarrhea, I'm just going to be this gross because this is as gross as it gets, and you're like, Oh, my God, if I don't get to a bathroom, I'm going to shit my pants. Think of the shame associated with that. When you think of the shame, I'm about to shit my pants in an airplane, in an airport, in a work meeting. Think of how you feel.

Also the urgency. The urgency. I'm like, I got to... This right now, I need to get this out of my body, get out of my way. You're not You're not listening to the meeting.

No. You're not listening to a conversation. You're like, I have to get to a bathroom or I'm about to embarrass the hell out of myself. This is awful.

It gets to the point where you don't even think. It overrides. Okay.

That diarrhea is how a narcissistic person feels every time that shame starts to come up. That's the best way I can describe. They're not listening to their shame coming up, but they don't even know it's shame. At least we know it's what it is, right? But they don't know. It's This feeling of that psychological diarrhea, and they're like, Nobody can see this. What do they do? Their equivalent of running to the bathroom is to become entitled and grandiose, or in most cases, rageful. When we look at a co-huts work on this, who was a theoretician, wrote back in the '60s and '70s, he would say this shame and rage is one of the central cores of the narcissistic presentation. What will happen is the psychological diarrhea, got to find a bathroom. The bathroom is, F you, Mel. You don't know what you're talking about. So now I'm powerful. Mel is small. Crisis averted.

When somebody who has a narcissistic personality style walks into a room, what might they be feeling?

They're cacing the joint. You know how a thief or a burglar walks into a place or drives by a place and they're looking for all the places they could get in? Where could they get in? Where could they get caught? Where might the money be? That's what they're doing with you. They're cacing the joint every time they meet you. Like, what's the way in? Who's got the power in this room? Who do I need to sit next to? Who do I need to talk to? Where's the stuff?

How do you spot them, other than the kid with the Versace a sweatsuit on in the stroller and the mom tapping on her phone.

They're the adult with the Versace sweatsuit who are sitting in whatever the adult equivalent of a stroller is. They don't look at people. They look through them. They have a remarkable capacity to be able to look at you, but also be eyeing the door to see if someone more interesting is coming in or if there's someone else more interesting at the bar. It may not be that they're more attractive. It's just that they may bring something cooler, more hip cred, more validation, more supply. They're always working the room. You can always see the sweet, agreeable people who will... They'll have the long, meandering, boring conversation because they've committed to it. Then they might find the graceful exit or someone may puncture the conversation. But the narcissistic person will just go and go until they find the best, if you will, target. Listen, I live in LA, so every so often, especially before the pandemic, I think since the pandemic, my dance card has been less full. But before I'd go to parties where there'd be some people, some notoriety, the narcissistic people. When they'd see that Famey Fame person walk in, it's a wonder they didn't trip trying to get over to them.

They would just abruptly leave conversations, and then they would just cleave themselves to the so-called famous, notorious, powerful Hollywood person. It was actually quite fun to watch. They're like heat-seeking missiles. As soon as they found the power center of a group, that's where they're going to put their focus.

You've got a new research in It's Not You, and one of the things that you write about are the four myths about narcissism. Can you unpack those for us?

One of the key myths is that narcissistic people are always men. I think that that's a dangerous myth. Again, I'm using the gender binary here. We still are that this research is evolving. Keep in mind, research often has a 10-15-year delay, if you will. But using the binary is Narcistic grandiose narcissists are more likely to be men. Men and women, equal levels of vulnerable narcissism. Men, more malignant narcissism because I think the combativeness- What is the malignant narcissism? Malignant narcissism is actually the most severe form of narcissism. I always call it the last stop on the narcissism train before it veers into psychopathy station. It's where we see the dark tetrad, where narcissism, Machiavélianism, or the willingness to exploit others, psychopathy and sadism all come together. That's a lot of what we see in malignant narcissism. They are more coercive, they are more exploitative, they are more manipulative, they're more isolating. They don't tend to have the big, bright, shiny grandiose personalities.

Is this when you get into severe emotional and physical abuse? Correct.

Yes. It may not even be physical. It may just simply be severe, isolated, coercibly controlling kinds of financial abuse, emotional abuse, that thing. It's more menacing. I think that those kinds of qualities, again, tend not to be selected for in women, so we're going to see that more in men. But when we talk about communal narcissism, that savior narcissism, this is where we see everything from New Age folks to cult leaders to people who think they're saving the world. People like saving the world. What do you mean? They're rescuing puppies. How could that be bad? They're rescuing puppies, though, to get validation and admiration. They probably like the puppies well enough. But if nobody's recognizing all their puppy saving or their environmental saving or whatever it is they're doing, they get angry. They have to be recognized as humanitarians. They not only put themselves out there as these great humanitarian saviors, they still treat the people they're closest to quite terribly. A great example of this would be the person like, You're a dad pillar of the community. You're so lucky to be his kid. The dad in the Little League and the mayor in the small town, and behind closed doors, screaming at that family, humiliating them, shaming them.

And yet the world says, your dad's a pillar of the community. That's a great example of communal narcissism.

So first myth that men are the narcissists. What's the next myth?

The second myth is that this is just bragging. It's just arrogance. It's just posturing. It's what we were talking about earlier. I think that somebody meets someone arrogant to like, Oh, that's a narcissist. I'll always say, Slow down, Let's spend a little bit more time. I'm digging in. I'm trying to find the entitlement. It's a little bit hard to find sometimes because it might take a minute to unfurl. That's why even therapists, it takes us a minute before we could really say definitively someone has a narcissistic personality or a narcissistic personality disorder. In fact, it's a lot more easier to discern in some ways if somebody's actually agreeable than if they're actually narcissistic, because narcissistic people can really start looking agreeable-ish, but they'll give away little cues. Narcissistic people tend to be snobby. They tend to be elitist. Some of that might come out early on, but it's not just bragging and arrogance. Just because a person is bragging, it's a person's arrogant, just because a person is wearing designer labels. It doesn't mean they're narcissistic. I say we have to be careful when it's these forward-facing characteristics.

The grudge really hit me, and so did this distinction that you mentioned earlier between the difference between somebody being annoying versus somebody's if you're being harmful.

That's exactly right. That's the piece where... This is what concerns me about the TikTok-ification of narcissism. Because what you're seeing there, and I've run into this over and over again, a lot of the folks out there who sometimes put out narcissism content were hurt by a narcist. Listen, I've been hurt by... I'm like a Hall of Famer at this point for the number of people. The narcissistic people have been in my life. Some still there, many not. But I'll give you a classical example. Somebody's boyfriend cheats on them. He's a narcist. I'm like, he cheated. I knew. Not okay, but I need more. I think that this idea that somebody cheats that makes them a narcist. Do narcissists cheat more than other people? Absolutely. Is everyone who cheats a narcist? No. I think that when a person is hurt in one way, they want to make that leave. We even have to be careful there. Yes, it's annoying, it is immature. We really latch on to the superficiality part of it. Just because somebody put selfies on Instagram, it doesn't make them a narcist. They could just be a sweetie. They just might just say, Look, an autumn leaves tree, and this is me in front of it.

In some ways, I look at those and I'm like, Sweet. But I mean, it's a little image in the true order.

I think what you're saying is really good. Now I feel terrible about slamming the baby in the Versace thing.

I'm willing to take that bet, Mel.

Because Because there are multiple checkboxes in that scenario in a certain age and behavior by parents. That's right. Because I don't blame the child at all. No. I also, in learning everything that I've learned in a weird way, the person that I'm closest to in my life that has a narcissistic personality style, I don't even blame them because I understand what you're saying, which is this can be the result of adverse childhood experiences that stunts somebody's emotional growth.

Right. This is where it gets the most tricky for survivors, right? Because I hear you, and that's exactly what I know, and many of the people I've known who are narcissistic clients I've treated and all of that to still keep pinning it down to, and their behavior is not acceptable. Number one, you're not responsible for their history. Number two, if they are a sentient, functional human being, they can take responsibility for their mental health. They have put you in the position of using you as a tool of regulation, pacifier, and punching back. That's not okay. They can take responsibility, but they will dine out for the rest of their life on the idea of, I had a tough childhood. They will, these days more than ever, will commandeer the rough childhood explanation as the explanation for their behavior. This is why I'm saying we have to be careful while narcissism This may be in part a trauma response. I'm going to push back on that a little, which is a person who had an adverse childhood and is having consistent trauma responses, for example, safety behaviors and all that, they tend to be consistent. The narcissistic person knows what they're doing.

How do we know they know what they're doing? Because you've gone through this, too. Think of the dinner party scenario. The dinner party, they're so charming. In fact, someone even ribs them, makes a funny little joke at their expense, and they laugh. You're thinking, Maybe I judge this person wrong. Maybe they're not narcissistic. You get in the car at the end of the night, and they go off for the next hour. They knew what they were doing. They waited till they got in the car. That's not a lack of insight. They knew exactly what they were doing.

There's another huge insight that's brand new for me because I think I've probably over-indexed on the explain it away, be empathetic, have sympathy while trying to remind myself I'm not responsible for it.

What I just shared was myth three, that this idea that they don't know what they're doing. This is why this is such an important point. That person who's careful, they make sure there's no one else in the car when they're on speaker. They scream at you after the dinner party is done. All the dinner party guests, the family, might still think they're a cool person because they've never seen the rage. Then that person experiencing that relationship often not only doesn't have support, they're having to endure other people saying, You're whoever it was, your friend, what a great person. I love the new boyfriend, and you're like, Everybody likes them. Then what do you do? Well, if everybody likes them- What's wrong with me? It's got to be me. That's why the book's called It's Not You.

Wow.

The fourth myth, and this is the myth to rule all other myths, which is they can change, everyone can change. Okay, so let's start with the simplest example. I'm going to put myself here on the shopping blog. I am an agreeable introvert. That's Dr. Ramani's personality. No matter how bad a day it is, I'll roll up to the person at the airport, Hi, how are you? Because I'm thinking, I don't know what day they just had. So I'll really say, You got to show up. You got to be warm and friendly, even if you're not feeling it. My agreeableness has been there. You've asked my mother, she'll say, From the day you were born, you were the sweetest, easiest baby in the world, smiling in every picture, right? But I'm an introvert. If somebody says, Ramony, you'd be so much more successful if you were a bit more entitled, put yourself first. It could be a little bit more arrogant. Do it. My team sometimes is like, Come on, you got to put yourself out there, Ramony. When I do, I feel sick. I can't do it. The times I'll be like, I need to be first.

I'm like, I don't know I don't. I can't do it. But if let's say somebody even said, Just go out there, be more entitled, be more grandiose, be more arrogant, be all these things, stop having all this empathy. Stop. What is the likelihood I could do that? Zero. And be the life of the party. Zero. Okay, So if I can't make those changes, why would the narcissist, and my personality is less rigid than theirs, if I can't become a disagreeable extrovert tomorrow, why would the narcissistic person become a big, huggy, empathic, unentitled riddled, open, vulnerable person. I can't do it, neither can they. And they're less likely to do it because their personality is more rigid.

I mean, that makes all the sense in the world.

We're actually asking something unreasonable, the narcissistic people, when we think that they can change. When you throw in there, they're less likely to go to therapy. When they start going to therapy, they're 60% more likely to drop out of therapy. When is this change actually going to happen?

Is that the reason why we don't know how many narcissists there are because they don't go to therapy?

Not only do they not go to therapy, a lot of the research, Mel, focuses on measuring how many people have narcissistic personality disorder. That, you're going to see rates of 1-6%. Versus a style. But versus the personality style where You're never going to get those numbers. People said, Come on, spitball a number. If I were to spitball a number, 20%, one in five. That high? Enough narcissism to cause problems in relationships, yeah. Do they have NPD? I have no idea. But one in five people, I think, has enough narcissism to cause a problem. I think if you go to major Metropolitan areas, it's going to be worse. I think in certain industries, it's going to be far worse. Finance, law, politics, media, athletics, celebrity, much, much worse.

Wow. There are five different patterns that narcissists have that you write about in your new book, It's Not You. Yeah.

Dimmer is an acronym I use to help not only people who are going through these relationships, but clinicians organize the pattern. The Dimmer patterns, and I use the term Dimmer because it really turns down our light. Narcistic people are dismissive, invalidating, manipulative, minimizing, but also gaslighting is in that manipulation. They're entitled and they're rageful. All of those patterns, the dismissiveness, the invalidation, the minimization, the manipulation, they turn off our light because the only way we can then survive in a relationship with a Narcist if we don't know what it is. The only way we can survive is by giving in, which means subjugating ourselves to them, pretty much living in their service. Because when you do that, the Narcist views us like I view this cup. Right now, I love this cup because it's holding the water I need. I'm fond of the cup. Thank you, cup. And that's even of stretch to thank the cup. When this is over, I'm going to throw this cup out because I have no more use for this cup. That's how a Narcist views a person.

What I find fascinating about that is that you constantly think about the Narcist in your life. All the time. But they don't think about you.

No, unless they need you, and then they think about you a lot. You like this cup, I'm thinking about this cup now. I'm about to take a drink out of it. They're not thinking about you unless you serve a function or unless they think they're going to lose you. The one thing we forget about narcissistic folks is they don't like abandonment because it is a loss of control. There's an argument that narcissistic folks also have attachment issues. They either have anxious attachments, avoidant attachments, or a mix of both, but definitely insecure attachments. The idea that their source of supply could get up and leave, and that's not what they want, means that they've lost control of the narrative, and they will punish that person for doing that.

Another one that you write about is domination.

Domination patterns are classical and narcissistic relationships because the function of a relationship for a narcissistic person is really to give them a place of power, domination, and control. It's the only way they can function in a relationship. As a result, all narcissistic relationships are asymmetric. There will never be balance and equity in a narcissistic relationship. They have to have more power. That's why, for example, in an intimate relationship, a narcissistic person will often want to have more money. If their partner has more money, that's not going to work for them. I remember working with a client where there's a woman, and she had a very narcissistic partner. She made the money. She was incredibly successful in what she did. He was absolute textbook malignant, narcissist. He would cut her down, constantly, cheated on her all the time. Anything to make her feel smaller and smaller and smaller. Then one day, he got into a new line of work, and his career really skyrocketed. Then the balance switched. He was now making more money. Money is a very, very powerful source of supply for narcissistic people, because in our culture, it's one of the fastest routes to power you can get.

Then he continued doing all the abusive things, but now he was much more secure in the relationship. Strangely, he started behaving a little whatever better is. But you see the same thing in families, too. It's all about power, domination, and control. It doesn't have to be the patriarch or the matriarch. You can literally be a sibling who is the one who is exerting that power, domination, and control. The power isn't always where you think. Obviously, when you have a narcissistic father, for example, can really be painful for everyone involved because that person is already more societally powered just by being a a man in charge of a family. But that's a central motivation. I think what happens for a lot of folks who fall in love with a narcissistic person is they believe you both want the same thing. You were in love. We're doing love things. I'm like, No, you're in love. They're in power. Understand the difference.

Whoa, that's a big one. You're in love, they're in power. Understand the difference. That leads right into love bombing. What is love bombing?

Okay, so love bombing is a strategic approach a narcissistic person takes at the beginning of a relationship to win a person over and secure them as a source of supply. In the most classical grandiose form of love bombing, it's a relationship that feels like a fairy tale. It's dinners out, it's love text, Good morning, my angel, good night, my princess, how's my queen this morning? That stuff is narcissism central. It's this is the greatest love story ever told. Where have you been my whole life? On Instagram, found my soulmate. Soulmate? Narcism. I see or hear soulmate. I'm like, someone's in a narcissistic relationship. You know how it's like every time a bell rings, an angel gets their wings. Every time I hear soulmate, someone fell in love with a narciss. Same thing. That is that talk. Magic connection once in a lifetime, picnics on the beach, let's fly to Paris, let's spend every day together for two weeks, good night, queen, good morning, king, all that stuff, that's love bombing. However, that's not the only way it shows up because some people say, That did not happen to me. Love bombing also might play on, for example, let's say someone's a rescuer, and especially with a vulnerable narcissistic person.

Vulnerable narcissists are really good at pulling for pity early in a relationship. I'm so lucky I met you. You're such a good listener. Nothing's ever gone on right in my life. You come along, you're listening. I guess my luck's changed, but oh, my gosh, thank you. And so you're like, My project. I am going to save them. And if that's your thing, then they are the ultimate. They're like a fixer-upper of a human being. So you're like, No, I know a guy. I'm going to introduce you to this guy. Like, Oh, your car's not working. Oh, please take mine. No problem. Or, I got you. We are going to make your dreams come true. That is crack for a vulnerable, narcissistic person. So it can be this rather vulnerable opening up, and that's how their love bombing shows up. But the mistake people make is we only think of love bombing in a romantic way. Love bombing can happen in families. When a family member needs something for you, now, listen, your family, your parents didn't love bombing because it was built into the model. You had to love them. You had no choice. But as time goes on, narcissistic parents will do the equivalent of love bombing.

They need the kid to be what they want. Hey, honey, you're the best. Oh, my gosh, you're doing so great. You're going to go out. You're going to win that game. It is pizza, it is ice cream. You want to go to Disneyland? I'll take you to Disneyland. It's the parent throws the little goodies in there to get the kid in line, sometimes even to be a source of supply for them. As you get into adulthood with a narcissistic parent or a narcissistic family member, they will do that same, You're the best. Here's all this stuff. We'll do anything you want to be able to keep you, maybe sometimes just on the narcissistic supply chain of the family.

I do have one question about the love bombing, because I saw this happen with somebody that I care deeply about. They're like, You're my queen. I love you, angel. The problem is when that happens to you as a human, you literally do think you found Prince Charming or you found the one. All of your chemicals in your body are going bananas because you are attracted to this person, and they're like, What do you do?

You ask such an important question because the other thing that happens in love bombing is that the person, the narcissistic person, tries to push the accelerator on the relationship. They wanted to go fast. If They want to lock down your supply. Remember, the narcissistic person uses a relationship not only to get supply and a key form of supply status.

What do you mean by supply? You use that word a lot.

Supply is the admiration you bring a person, the validation you bring a person. It could be your attractiveness, it could be money, it could be social status, it could be sex, it could be time, it could be novelty. Remember, the reason love bombing works is that it's new not only for you, but for them. Narcistic people are reward seekers, but they don't care as much about punishment. So they don't think about consequences, they think about reward. There are biological theories of narcissism that suggests the nucleus accumbens, those areas of the brain that are very dopamine happy parts of the brain. That reward sensitivity that has been shown in the research to be very much the case, that they don't think about the punishment, the thing down the road. They think about the thing that feels good in front of them. But they are trying to lock down the supply. So if you're a good source of supply, you're You praise them a lot, you're so hot, you're so cool, you're so great, let's go Instagram official. Anything that's bringing them what they want. It's attention, right?

I know. But as a 55-year-old woman, I see it happening with so many 20 something. I'm like, You did not meet the love of your life. You are not marrying this person right now. Calm your freaking jets.

Mel, I'm going to call you out on that.

Keep your IUD in. Let's not lock this sucker down. You are an irrational, insecure. Obviously, I can't say this to somebody.

But I'm going to call you out on that. Let's not just be mean to the 20-year-old. I am watching 55 Five-year-old.

I'm sure because if you're newly out of a marriage or you've been single forever and somebody suddenly comes out of the blue, I understand. We all want attention and to feel good. But How do you discern? I guess because a normal person doesn't go, You're my queen, 10 seconds after they meet you.

That thing is the narcissist is too clever to say, You're my queen, 10 seconds after meeting It's the date that goes for 48 hours. That's exactly right. It's the date that goes on for 48 hours. It's they say good night. And think of it, let's say somebody's been dating a bunch of people who aren't responsive, who wait three days to text and all that, which narcissists can do as well, but a really full court press love bomber. They'll send that, Are you home, baby? Can't stop thinking about you. Ding. And then in the morning, Good morning, queen. I just dreamt about you. Ding. Middle of the day. But They're really good love bombers. They don't go crazy. It's not every hour. Maybe around lunchtime like, Hey, I hope your day is going well. Then they might even, Wait a minute. They're still not the second day. They're very tactical.

What would happen? Let's just say that somebody hears you and They're taking everything that you're saying to heart. A couple of months from now, you get in a new relationship. You go on this absolutely fabulous date. The next morning, angel, I hope you slept well. I dreamt about you all. I'm literally. Then Then middle of the day, can't get any work done, can't stop thinking about, you can't wait to see you. That night, another date goes all night. It's just like, When are we getting married? You start to go, Oh, somewhere in the back of my mind between the dopamine rush and the sex hormones that are flying through my body, I remember Dr. Romani saying something about the fact that this could be love bombing. Is there a stance you could take just to test the waters a little bit where you don't respond for 24 hours? Then is there something to do to interrupt yourself? Because you're not going to stop the love bombing.

Have you ever been on vacation to a place like Hawaii or some other tropical island?

Not Hawaii, but somewhere else.

Some other tropical island. You've been on a vacation like that, right? Did you move there?

No.

You came home?

Yeah.

Would it be nice to stay there? Umbral the drinks, days in the sun, reading the book. Telling people to interrupt the love bombing is telling people, You just got to Maui? Come home. Stay in Maui for a week. Have some fun. But as soon as you're I miss my cat, my dog. I miss my bed. Come back.

Ride the love bomb out.

Have some fun. You want to test it. The things you'll see early on are things like the narcissistic person doesn't tolerate Well, if anything pings their entitlement, for example, they don't get the table they want. There is a wait at the restaurant. They did lose the reservation. The bags get lost, and they get really, really crunchy and entitled. You just got your first sign and catch yourself in the excuse like, Well, we did just have an overnight flight. They're not okay to yell at somebody for not finding the bag, all right? You've now gotten your first piece of data. One of the most interesting things I remember learning in graduate school was a supervisor told me, I was learning to be a therapist. He said to me, The first time something happens, it happens. The second time something happens, it's a coincidence. The third time it happens, it's a pattern. So take the first time as what it is, call the second time a coincidence. By the time the third time comes, it's time to leave Maui, pack those bags and come home. Because I, as a psychology, can tell you, it's impossible for me to tell someone to leave something that feels that good.

The key is that when you're getting Good morning, queen, soulmate nonsense, to recognize this for the tropical vacation that it is and to remind yourself that this is going to run out. I am going to need to go back to real life again. When that rule of three hits and say, Yeah, no, this isn't cool. This isn't okay. But that is a really, really tough nut to crack, because what the love bombing does, and this is why it's such a useful tactic, it creates buy-in. Because what has happened is you've now created the idealized foundation of a relationship. Maybe that's the thing is that idealization really has no place in a relationship, is that we're trying to fall in love with the whole person. The whole person isn't always a day at the beach. The whole person is the regular stuff. But unfortunately, in the app dating world we're in, narcissistic people have the best dating profiles. They have the most curated images. They've got their cool places, and they always look good, and the abs, and the whole thing. It's a whole thing. You're really trying to catch people as they get lost in this world of love bombing and all of that, is telling them to go against human biology.

That's a tough sell. I think that teaching people more than when these little red flags start popping up, pay attention. If it feels too much, it is too much. You're a grown adult. It's not supposed to be a fairytale. I still think we live in a rom-com world and where we think this is a normal way to have a relationship. I also think that the West is very romance-oriented. Any world where there's lots of romance is where the narcissists are going to win. I guess I'm telling... I think we're around Valentine's Day now. I'm saying, Say goodbye to the romance. Buy the chocolates the day after Valentine's or 50% off and Stop playing into this game ahead of time.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I love this concept in your book, It's Not You, of the C-suite as being the gateway to love bombing. Can you explain what that is?

Yes. Here we're talking about narcissistic relationships and how terrible they are, right? And how it could be, especially in an intimate relationship, but in any relationship, you're thinking, Well, why are we running away as soon as we see them yelling at the server Because everybody's vulnerable to these relationships. This idea that, are there some people more vulnerable than others? No. That's the C-suite. Why are we all vulnerable to them? Because they are charming, they are charismatic, They are confident. They are curious about us. They have great credentials. In a weird way, especially if we had narcissistic parents and we meet a narcissistic person in adulthood, they're even a weird source of comfort because it's our chance, number two, to win over the person who is not fully loving us. Like, I know this game. I'm going to be fabulous, and I'm going to make them love me because that's how love works. I'm going to earn it from them because if someone just rolls up and loves you, you're like, That's boring. That's the thing you push back, you get. But that especially the charisma, the confidence, the charm. I mean, it's an odd thing to tell people when someone's charismatic.

Why isn't it there all the time, though? You know what I mean? This is the thing that's so damn confusing. It's a transaction.

It's a transaction. They're trying to get your supply. Again, it's that conscious knowing how to turn it on and turn it off. You must know, Mel. You said you know narcissistic people. Tell me they were not some of the most charming, charismatic, shiny, sparkly people you've ever known.

It's true. I think there are two enormous takeaways that I have from this conversation so far. Number one, that there is a difference between between their behavior and it being acceptable. You said this thing earlier that made me go, Holy cow, you're absolutely right. Their behavior is what their behavior is, and that is completely separate from whether or not it's appropriate. Correct.

Regardless of their backstory.

Regardless of their backstory. That's an enormous piece of it that I think I have explained away so much of the bad behavior and the broken dynamic because of the backstory. The over-extension of empathy and consideration has put me in a position where I have tolerated the behavior. I have made excuses for the behavior. I have felt bad for the person when the tantrums or the grudges or the this or the that. I tune it out, and I have not given myself the permission to say, Hey, you are who you are, but how you're behaving around me is not appropriate. The second thing that has been an enormous eye opener, because I always fixated on the fact that somebody is not necessarily born this way, that's made in childhood. It's a personality style. It is like concrete. You're not going to change it. But when you started explaining how selective somebody is, how they turn it off and on, how they target you versus a sibling, or they target a certain situation versus another situation, you're a thousand % right. That there is this complete conscious direction of when I'm going to explode, when I'm not going to explode, who I'm going to gripe to, who I'm not going to gripe to.

That is so empowering to me because it allows me to really step into that truth that is still not appropriate. It doesn't matter what the hell happened to you. That allows me to understand what's going on. It doesn't mean it's acceptable.

Right. I think that, again, I'm so glad you honed in on those two things, because what I think people are often, they're asking a question and asking the wrong question, and we sometimes give them the wrong answer, which is, does the narcissistic person know why they are the way they are? To which I'm going to say Not really, and it doesn't matter. But I think the thing is that people want to say maybe they can't help it. I'm telling you, obviously, they can. If they couldn't, Mel, they'd never be as successful as way they are. Or they'd be screaming in shareholder meetings, they'd be screaming at everyone. Sometimes they do, but they tend to scream at what they consider low-value targets, people they view as disposable. It's pretty rare for them to scream at other people.

That is disgusting. If you really think about it, if you really get out of the victimhood mindset, like, Why is this happening to me? And you embrace what you're saying, which is the reason why they target you and not your sister, is because they view you as the low value target. They can get what they want out of you, which is the supply of your attention and stepping on your face in order to feel better.

And you're going to come back around.

Yeah, because you always do. Dr. Romani, I remember at one point you saying after decades of being in a clinical practice, being a professor, researching, writing best-selling books, that you have had many narcissists in your practice. Is it possible in your clinical experience for a narciss to actually change?

Okay, I wish I could say yes or no. Not enough to make a difference in the health of the important relationships in their life. Micro changes that might affect how they go through the world with less important people. They may learn their pleases and thank you's. They may learn to show up on time. They may regulate their anger a little bit better. They may not flip off the person who cuts them off in traffic. Are they going to be present, empathic, mindful, and self-aware? I haven't seen that happen. One of those old emails I'd get from former clients was a person, person who was in a long-term relationship with a malignant narcissist. When that person terminated therapy with me many years ago. The person said to me, I have to end the therapy with you because you see the truth of my relationship and I'm not leaving. It's unfortunate that this person did leave therapy because Most, 50% of people stay in these relationships. It's not unusual, and I get it, and there's no judgment. This person said, I feel ashamed that I'm staying in this. This person happened to choose to stay because they had a very well-resourced lifestyle.

There was a very restrictive prenup. The person said, I don't think I can give up this lifestyle because I am really looking at a one bedroom apartment for the rest of my days. I'd left the workplace for too long. I'm going to make it work. I'm going to make it work. By happenstance, a few years after the client terminated, I happened to be in a large event where the person was with the spouse. As therapists, we have a rule. We're not to ever acknowledge a client in public unless they acknowledge us, and then rather perfunctually to preserve their confidentiality. When I saw this person was there, I put myself on the other side of the room, but I watched. I could see this person trying to make a horse race of it with the spouse. Five years after that, the client emailed me. And said nothing ever changed. It remained the same way. At the end of it, it ended up really destroying our child's mental health. I can't say that there was any self-satisfaction at that email. What broke my heart is that as a clinician, you can see what's coming, especially for the children.

You could see what a hard road it would be for a person like this. But But that's not the only email I've ever gotten like that. And that when people would leave and they'd say, I'm going to try, I'm going to try. The trying and thinking it's going to get better is where a heart gets broken. But this person It's laid it out the thing we know. It doesn't get better. And sadly, what ends up happening is there's more collateral damage like children and other people close to you. The best I could do at that point was give that person a referral and wish them well. But for that one story, There's millions more.

So one of the other big takeaways today for me is that one of the reasons why somebody that has a narcissistic personality style is not going to change is because you are basically disposable. You don't matter enough to them to have them put change ahead of themselves.

To put change and to, again, remember, to really Can't create change, Mel. A person has to be willing to be attuned to their own vulnerability. That idea, there's no authenticity, and narcissism never belong in the same sentence because it doesn't happen. To be self-aware To be self-reflective is to connect to our vulnerability, and now we're back to the psychological diarrhea. That constant sense of threat, it is, yes, not only are other people disposable, they have to be disposable because Mel, if other people aren't disposable, then they too much power. That's the challenge.

Where I want to go next is to the title of your book, It's Not You. Because if 50% of people stay in relationships, whether it's with a parent or a partner, or they're not leaving, or even if they leave, there is a massive level of wiring and trauma and abuse that you've sustained, that you have tools You have all kinds of resources that you're going to share in the next part of our conversation.

Thank you so much. This new book is not about the narcissist. This time, it's about healing. As I put it, it's the tale of the hunt told by the lion and not the hunter. It's time to talk about healing.

I can't wait to dig into that, too. But before we do that, I want to make sure before we end, in case nobody else tells you, let me be the first person to say today that I love you and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. I know, based on everything that you've learned today, you feel empowered to do that in your relationships. All right, I'll talk to you in a few days. I keep thinking about something that happened a week ago. I was... Just take some more. I keep thinking Thinking about something that happened a week ago. Still a more frog, sorry. There was probably a three-year-old just lounging in a stroller. And this three-year-old... Jeez, do you guys have a loge in?

I do.

You do. Fabulous. I could pull a lozange out of my ass.

That's pretty gross. It's actually in my chair. That would be gross if that was the case. Wow. I'm like, I'm- Then we'll be in here in two seconds. This is how I know I'm an old person because I carry little wrapped candies around. I'm like, When does that happen? Apparently, it's at 58. It does. You're right.

I typically have candy in my bag, too. And abandon.

Yeah. Walking First Aid Kit in CVS. I'm your girl.

That's amazing. Oh, and one more thing. No, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. Stitcher..