Look, I don't mean to make you jealous, but I just had the best night's sleep, and I feel amazing. And I want that for you. I want you to feel amazing because a good night's sleep makes you more productive, happy, and present. And here's a quick tip if you want that. Like I can do anything feeling when you wake up in the morning. Ollie. What is Ollie? Ollie makes the best supplement gummies. Got them right here. They have the best in class sleep soft gels. To help you get those 8 hours of sleep that you deserve, go to ollie.com to discover the sleep, mood, and multivitamin supplements parents take every day. That's Olly.com ollie. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. I am so excited that you're hanging out with me today, and I also want to thank you for taking the time to choose to listen to something that could help you improve your life. I think that is super cool. Whether you're a longtime listener or you are brand new, I want to welcome you.

You are now part of the Mel Robbins podcast family. We are a super cool, smart, and empowered group of people, and you are a huge part of it. So thank you. I'm Mel Robbins. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and one of the world's leading experts on confidence and motivation. I am on a mission to inspire you, to empower you, and to give you tools and the expert resources that you need and deserve to help you create a better life. Now, over the past month, we have been talking nonstop about different ways that you can make this year the best year of your life. And I know you've been loving these episodes because we've been covering everything from how do you get clear on what you actually want and why you want it? How do you create a plan to go for it and to actually achieve what you want? And a big part of this being one of the best years of your life is you allowing it to be you letting happiness in, because I really do want you to not only crush it in life and achieve your big goals, but I don't want you to do that as an empty person.

I want you to be able to experience joy and to feel fulfilled as you're going for it. Just a couple of weeks ago, you and I talked all about how you are blocking your happiness. I talked and shared about how I had been doing it, how I stopped doing it. And I'll put a link in the show notes to that episode in case you missed it, because everybody that listened to it gobbled that up. I mean, you shared that. You wrote in, I'm so glad. It made a huge difference. And so today, this was my plan. I was planning that we were going to go even deeper on the topic of happiness and talk all about the research and science with this renowned researcher. Well, I sat down and we were starting the conversation, and I'm going to warn you, holy smokes. We were like two minutes in and the conversation went in a direction that I was not expecting. And I'm going to tell you something. I am so happy it did because you're about to hear one of the most validating, important, and impactful interviews I've ever done on this podcast, period. You are going to feel so seen and understood.

You're going to understand why feeling fulfilled and just happy, happy, happy has eluded you. And most importantly, you will be left in action. I cannot wait for you to spend time with the incredible Dr. Judith Joseph. Let me tell you about her. She is a renowned double board certified psychiatrist. She earned her medical degree, her MBA, and did her residency all at Columbia, where she is also the chairwoman of the women in medicine board. She also did a medical fellowship at NYU, where she's been a professor for the last decade. Just recently, she received A-U-S. Congress and House of Representatives Proclamation award for her social media advocacy and mental health research. And here's the thing that I find to be so cool about. Dr. Judith Joseph. She's a pioneering researcher. She is the founder and principal investigator of a research institute that she created, Manhattan Behavioral medicine, where she has conducted over 60 clinical research trials with her all female medical team. Dr. Judith is here with not only the research, but the recommendations, the simple things that you can start doing literally in the middle of this podcast with me and with Dr. Judith to start feeling like yourself again.

So thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing this. Let's jump right in. Dr. Judith Joseph, I am so happy you are here. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming and spending time with me.

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

I am, too. And, you know, I want to jump right in. So much of your research and your work is with what I guess society would call highly successful, high functioning people. And on the outside, you could check all the boxes in terms of what society tells us to measure, from the income to the family life, to the cars that they drive, to the titles that they have. And yet you are finding some pretty incredible insights. And I recently saw you say something that surprised me. You said that we need to throw our idea of happiness out the window. And I thought, Dr. Judith, what has gotten into you are, like the smileiest, most joyful person. What do you mean, throw happiness out the window?

Well, in my practice and in the research that I'm doing, I'm seeing that this idea of what we thought happiness was is just not possible. It's not attainable. People are walking around feeling blah or meh, or just feeling numb. And then to give them this impossible idea of happiness, to then go ahead and try to obtain, it's just not right. It's unattainable.

And when you say this impossible idea of happiness, is it the kind of, I don't know, popular culture notion that happiness is about doing more? It's about achieving something. It's about go, go. And all of us are just freaking exhausted. Is that what you're talking about?

Happiness is not a state. It's about increasing the points, the moments of joy. It's about becoming happier and not being happy. So there are small things you can do every day to increase the points of joy in your life to add up to being happier. It's not just one moment in time. It's not this picture perfect ideal, because that is impossible to reach. And that's why people feel unsatisfied. That's why they feel like they can't reach it. And so when you shift the way you think about happiness as, like, okay, there are points of joy today that I could have or not have versus I need to be happy today. It's such a mind blowing shift, and it's attainable, when you think about it, as points of joy.

Okay, so I got to get my mind to be on the same level as Dr. Judith here. So maybe I should ask you this as a researcher. How do you even describe happiness? Like, if you were talking, let's say, to your seven year old, right? How would you explain happiness to your daughter?

It's interesting because you don't have to teach children how to play. It just seems as if they naturally know how to play. Just do an experiment. You're going to be a researcher with me. Have a toddler give them a box. They will find ways to enjoy that box. They may put it in their mouth. They may toss it in their hands. They may throw it to someone else. They may look at it. They may inspect it. They're using their senses to explore a box, something that most of us just discard. Along what line? At what point do we lose the ability to play? And after a certain while seeing children and adults in my practice, I'll have a 50 year old man sit on my couch. And then I look at him like a five year old. I'm like, at what point did this five year old stop playing? And then you trace back to their childhood. You trace back to their trauma, and at some point, they stopped prioritizing fun joy play. They just stopped, and they don't know. So it's my job to figure out where did they lose that? And I'm seeing this lack of feeling and lack of validation and lack of processing in our society.

If we don't know how we feel, how can we identify what to do with this feeling, this emotion? How do we trace back to the thought, to the experience that led to this present state? So because of a lack of feeling and processing, I'm learning that this is leading to a lack of joy, which I have helped my patients to name as. Wait.

Okay, hold on. You just. Anhedonia.

How do you say it with me? Anne. An hoodonia.

Donia. Anhonia. Yeah.

Did I say perfect?

What the hell is an hoodonia? See, I'm going to who? Because I'm already laughing at myself.

Anne, is a lack of hadan. Is hedonism or joy? Pleasure. Okay, so lack of joy. An hedonia.

I've never heard this word. Is this actually a clinical term? It is.

It's a very old medical term, and it's throughout the research, but it's not in the typical vocabulary. I'm trying to change that.

Okay.

I educate my patients that anhedonia is something that we all, at some point, probably experience, but not in long stretches. And if you ever think back to a time in life where you were really busy and you weren't really processing what you're going through, maybe you were feeling meh or blah, or people asked, how are you doing? I'm okay. But you really felt like nothing. Guess what? That's anhedonia.

So I'm just going to speak on behalf of, I think the vast majority of people who are listening right now, who basically are going through life feeling a little empty inside. And you've already kind of woven through a number of topics. And when I hear you describe that feeling of, well, I don't really know how I'm feeling. I'm sort of checked out. I'm going through the motions. I feel like I'm not really connected to anything right now. A lot of people have the experience of going, there's a different way to live. And you're here to say, there is.

There is. I think a lot of people don't even recognize what that is. There's something called affect labeling. If you name the way you feel, you're less stressed. I mentioned I treat children, some as young as four, and adults, some as old as 90. And the interesting thing is that when you're seeing a child in preschool, if you walk into any preschool or kindergarten, you'll see a face chart. You'll see a sign that says, this is happy, this is sad, this is angry, this is hurt. Children are taught the importance of labeling the feeling. Why? Because, let's say a child feels hurt. They know, oh, my tummy hurts. That means I have to go to the bathroom. If I don't go to the bathroom, I'm going to wet my pants.

Right, right.

You don't want the kid wetting the pants.

Right.

At some point in adulthood, we stop training adults to identify and label their feelings. Maybe it's because of the state of society. I have this biopsychosocial theory about anhedonia.

Okay. No, those are a whole lot of words. What was it? Biosocial.

Biopsychosocial.

What does that mean?

In medical school, you learn that all disease models or symptoms have a biosychosocial component. Bios represents your body, your biology. So, for example, we went through a pandemic. Who knows how the virus affected our brains? Some numbers say that 70% of us got infected. Also, there are genetic risk factors in the bio. Right. Some of us have a family history of mental health conditions, the food that we eat. There's a lot of growing literature in nutritional psychiatry that the foods are causing inflammation and the environment and so forth. So that's the bio part of the biopsychosocial model? Yes, the psychological component. This is interesting because in our society, trauma is not processed, and people have a way of kind of like labeling victims as being the blame for the trauma. The just world theory that we all kind of harbor in our brain says.

What is the just world theory?

Well, good things happen to good people, bad things happen to bad people. So you may read these terrible stories of a woman running through the park, and you're like, what was she doing in the park at that night? She shouldn't have been attacked. But in our minds, we think, well, if she did this, if she did that, she should have been okay. But it's just not the case. Bad things happen to good people and they happen to them. It wasn't their fault. But in our society, we label trauma as a blaming thing, a shame thing. So it really deters people from talking about their feelings, talking about their pain.

True.

And as a society, we went through a lot of trauma. We had the pandemic. We had all these bad things happen. It's like when I take my daughter to the beach and I say, watch out for the waves, and she runs right into the waves. She gets hit, catches her breath, then catches. Then she, like, nose dives into the sand. Well, we as a society did not get a chance to catch our breaths. We got hit with a pandemic. Then we had all these terrible news reports about police brutality. Then we saw uprisings with political issues, we saw wars. I mean, it was just news after news. We never caught our breath. But as a society, there's no Covid-19 memorial. We don't have a holiday, so there's no way to process that trauma. We're just supposed to push, push, push through it. And when you push and you don't feel that sounds like anedonia, right? You get numb. And that's been our coping mechanism. That's just the psycho part. I haven't even got into the social part.

Well, let's do the social part. And then I have a bunch of questions about the state of where the average person is given the last three to four years that we have collectively experienced. So let's talk about the social part, because you've done two of them, of the biopsycho and now social.

Now the social, we all identify with this. 1 minute we were told, humans are dangerous, don't touch, don't go to their house, stay alone. And then the next minute we were told, okay, humans are safe, you can congregate. Then we're told again, don't do that, you're going to get hurt. Children, if you think about children, because I treat children and adults, if you tell them that they've had trauma, and then you tell them they're safe and that it wasn't their fault and that this is the routine, they do better, they have a better outcome than if they think it's all their fault and that they're not safe and there's no routine, there's no plan. Adults have the same type of thinking, right? Like, if you tell us that we're safe, then we're not, then we're safe again, then we're not. It just does something to. It's trauma, and we never got to heal from that. So the isolation, that's the social part. We lost that connectivity. Then how do we connect online? Right? We used social media, and if you look at the CDC reports, children are online and their mental health has declined. So they really got connected to each other online, and it replaced that meaningful interaction.

Children need sensory input. Your brains supposedly develop until you're 25. They lost all of that. So they just cope by being online and excessively using social media. And we're learning now that these studies are showing that this is dangerous for their brains. I don't even know what it's going to show for the adult brain. Right? So that's a social part. There were other things. We saw a rise in binge drinking in populations that were typically protected because people were soothing that way. We saw things like unhealthy sexual habits online, developing consumerism, like, we've had more online shopping than ever before. So there's this human condition to soothe in ways that are excess. So we do do. We don't feel, feel. And when you don't feel, you feel me, right? Anhedonia. And a lot of the research is overlapping with anhedonia. From what we know, when Ribbot, who's a french psychologist, first identified anedonia back in the day, in the 18 hundreds, what he found was a correlation between depression, substance abuse and schizophrenia. But given the collective trauma and the soothing with excess, in a culture that is very capitalistic, where the rich are just getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, people are consuming, the rich are consuming money, power, and the rest of us are just trying to keep up.

Right? We're consuming. Our dollars stretch a lot less far than they used to. So we have this really excessive consumerism culture that is not the proper way to soothe. It's not processing. We're not feeling.

I am so happy that you just went there, and I'm going to tell you why. But before I kind of add in my two cent, I want to ask you a question. Because you have been working with people in your clinical practice, you have been conducting a tremendous number of clinical trials. And so you see it both in your one on one patient interactions from the ages of, like, literally five to 90. And then you also see it as you are measuring data points. Is it your opinion as a researcher and as a clinician that there has been a large increase in this feeling of emptiness and this feeling of blah Anedonia that you are seeing in the wake of the last three to four years of the collective trauma? Of going through the pandemic and all of the just injustice that played out in the news in terms of police brutality and in the political turmoil. That that is a collective trauma that has caused a spike in Anedonia, this lack of joy in people.

Absolutely. I think that people are not processing the trauma. They're just told to go, go. And if you think about it, the pandemic had such uncertainty financially. A lot of us, especially entrepreneurs, they didn't want to lose their jobs, their businesses, their babies. Right? Businesses are their babies. So what do they do? Well, we got to keep working. We got to keep working. Many entrepreneurs are still in fight or flight mode from the pandemic. The same for corporations, right? People didn't know if they were going to keep their jobs. So what do they do? Work came home. It was supposed to only stay home for a little bit. Work is in the home indefinitely now. So our boundaries are totally skewed. We're working more than ever. Children, the same thing. A lot of them can't catch up because of the delays that happen in the education system. Teachers are doing their best, but children are feeling this pressure to catch up. Right? Again, we all can't catch our breath. The trauma ocean is just hitting us wave after wave. And if we don't sit still, if we don't process the trauma, if we continue using these other things to soothe in excess, we're not going to be able to recover.

We have to take the time to feel.

I want to make sure that you listening that you're hearing what Dr. Judith is saying because I think she is 1000 freaking percent correct. And I'm so glad you're the one saying it because you have the credentials and you have the research and you have the awards and all of it to basically say, listen up. The reason why you feel empty and numb and burnt out is because you are struggling with this condition that was created by three to four years of sustained uncertainty, the likes of which a human being is not designed to process. I'll just share a little bit because when you and I last met, it was when I was hosting a daytime talk show. And it was just after one of your last appearances that Covid-19 was found at CBS Broadcast center. They evacuated the building. They summarily canceled my show. I have a payroll to make the kids come home. And I have conveniently pushed that to the back of my mind. That period of time where I was in sheer panic about how I was going to pay the bills, what was going to happen, how I was going to keep health care going for people.

What was going to happen to my kids? And every single one of us has that story. And so I agree with you. I also agree, and I think it's very important for you, listening to hear that. If you worked for somebody, there was an anxiety response to what was happening, and there was a time where your work life was okay and manageable, and then all of a sudden, you found yourself on a never ending Zoom parade where you were constantly online, the kids were at your feet. And I think it's important, and it's great that you're talking about it, because our instinct in life is to basically pull up our big girl pants and move on. We got through that. We're not talking about it. I hate that term, the new normal, because it basically means. And what you're saying and what you're seeing from a research perspective and a clinical perspective is that this has impacted your ability to access joy. This is why you feel that you're just. Or you're empty, and that's why you're having trouble sleeping. That's why you just kind of want to get on with it. That's why nothing quite feels right, because it hasn't gone back to normal.

Because you haven't reset your body back to normal. And are you also saying, though, that there's something we can do and that we should do and that it will help both process all of the crazy stuff that we all just survived and that we're not talking about because we want to forget about it and that it will help us access joy and.

Happiness again, I'm so grateful you said that so beautifully. I mean, you're so in tune and so connected to your listeners. What you just did was validated them. You named what they were going through. Right. We called it affect labeling, naming how you feel, because when you know what it is, you're less afraid.

That's true.

Humans, we need to know what it is. You validated everyone and said, this is what you're feeling. The other thing that you did so beautifully was you said, I was in a haze. And I remember. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that from my patients. 2020 was a blur. Even my lab team were like, what were we doing at 2020? Sometimes we go through the phone and we look at pictures. We were on the roof drinking tequila.

That's what researchers do. Sometimes.

We needed something, a little something. But, yeah, it's like we don't remember things, right? That's a symptom of trauma people forget huge parts of their lives, so don't be surprised. Don't knock yourself. If you don't even remember parts of 2020, that's a trauma response. Right? People were also awarded. They were rewarded and awarded for pushing through. Anhedonia is contagious. It is contagious. So you ever heard the saying, the fish rots at the head?

No, but that's disgusting.

And maybe it's a snake, but there's a saying.

I believe you.

Well, if a corporation is anxious, like you said.

Yes.

And the boss is anxious and they're like, oh, my gosh, we're going to lose everything. Well, that gets passed down, right? It's trickled down. Everyone else is anxious, everyone's working. And if the heads have not relaxed, if they haven't stopped that, or if they've gotten wise and they're like, we're making money, let's keep this fare going. It's never going to stop. In fact, you get rewarded with the more work and the less you feel.

Yes. And I think this has snuck up on people. And so I want to tell you, as you're listening to Dr. Judith, she's not joking, that this crept up on you. And if you feel like you can't get back to yourself, if you feel like you can never catch a break from work, even when you're not working, you're thinking about it. You can't find that off switch so that you can drop into those points of joy that you don't even probably remember because that was four years ago and you've been running 100 miles an hour since. This is an opportunity to say, yeah, that happened to me. Now we need to hear a short word from our sponsors because they allow me to bring all of this expert advice to at zero cost to stay with us. Welcome back. It's Mel. And we're talking about joy, or actually, we're talking about the lack of joy and why so many of us are feeling that right now with the remarkable Dr. Judith Joseph. And we were just about to jump into why it is so hard to identify this as the core issue that we're struggling with.

Here's the thing. Doctors and healthcare providers, they don't code something unless it causes impairment. So if you go into the doctor and you're like, I just feel kind of blah. And they're going to be like, well, are you working? Yes. Are you taking care of your family at home? Yes. Is anyone really complaining? No. Okay, well, I'll see you next year, right? It's not like digging deeper like something's off. I just feel like any minute now something's going to happen. I can't put my finger on it, or I feel like nothing gives me pleasure. If you go to a doctor with that, they're going to be like, your function is okay, you're good.

I think I just got what your research is about. So you've identified the symptom and how it appears on the surface, which any one of us that are just going through life would describe as. I feel blah. I feel empty. I feel a little lost. I feel like I'm on autopilot. You have grabbed onto this thing that we may describe casually to somebody, but it is a low ache inside of your soul, basically, where you aren't feeling a lot. You're kind of in survival mode, and yet you're still getting it done. And you've pulled on that thread in people who are functioning and pushing through and getting it done, and you have found a very deep connection that on the surface, when you say to yourself, which I think if you're honest with yourself, everybody is suffering from a level of this, unless you have truly taken your mental health and your nervous system and processing what we all just went through, you are probably feeling this. And you have pulled on that thread and gone all the way down to say, holy smokes. This is somebody who's turned off feelings, and this is somebody who has blocked their access to joy and happiness and more chasing and trying to get the Lamborghini or more Instagram followers or to lose weight or to find a person to date.

All that shit on the outside is never going to impact this. And that's why you say you have to, especially right now, you have to throw the definition of what happiness is out the damn window. Because I think we are all. When you say happiness, what that means to me is most of us are chasing it, right? We think more money will create that feeling. We think losing the weight will create that feeling. And I'd love to just go and start talking about terms, because we all want what you're talking about. We all want to get rid of the emptiness. I want everybody listening to feel validated, like this really happened, it really impacted you, and it's still impacting you and you know it, but people are not talking about it. And this is a deep, well researched, psychologically validated, I don't even know if that's a term, but it is real. And so if we're going to throw happiness as we think about it, and how do most people that walk into your practice. How do most people think about happiness? In the wrong way?

So I've developed this anhedonia rating scale. Anyone can take it. It's on my website.

You are such a scientist. I love this. There is a scale for this.

There's points, right? You can't tell people to measure it, and then they have no way. So if you fill out the rating scale, you'll see that it's made up of points of joy. Now, there have been anhedonia rating scales for decades. I modified them because the older ones, like the shops, this Nath Hamilton rating scale.

I have no idea what you're talking.

About, but, okay, well, it has a british twang to it, so we'll say, did you enjoy a cup of tea this morning? That's my british accent. Or did you like that landscape? Well, we don't have that.

Right.

I don't drink tea in the morning, so I had to modify and add things that relate to today.

Okay.

One of the things I found is that people with anhedonia will say, I will be happy when or if this happens, then I'll finally be happy. So there's this picture of what happiness looks like, and it's usually when something happens.

Yes.

They're missing the mark, because even research shows that even when you get that picture, when that thing happens, you're still not happy. So then it's another goal. It's another thing. Being happier in the day is what matters. One thing we all have in common is that tomorrow is not promised.

Right.

We all have that in common. So how do we increase the points of joy today?

And I understand that you have a quiz that you can run me through.

Yes.

To determine the level to which you have anedonia and that this is what you're really struggling with, which is the inability to find small points of joy in your day.

Absolutely. Okay, can you give me the quiz? I can.

Okay, everybody, listen up. Here we go. Let's take the quiz.

It's very, very basic, and it's agree or disagree.

Okay.

I often make delayed future happiness statements, such as, when I get this x, I'll finally be happy. So it could be anything.

Yes.

Okay.

I agree.

I find it hard to enjoy resting or taking breaks because I feel restless and empty when I'm not busy.

100% agree.

I rarely take the time to savor meals.

By that, do you mean I stand up so. And I eat while I'm talking? Is that what you're referring to?

I've done a bunch of TikToks on people like shoving food in their mouths.

Or working and typing as I'm yes, that's not savoring. Yeah, my daughter just yelled at me for doing that the other day and then said, that's probably why you feel bloated, mom. Okay.

I rarely enjoy reading for leisure.

I enjoy it, but I never do it.

A lot of people say that. A lot of people say that when I take naps, I don't feel refreshed.

I don't take naps because when I wake up, I feel anxious, like I miss something. I don't like napping.

When I watch tv or stream movies, I'm not engaged in the program.

I agree, because I typically do not follow my own advice and I'm scrolling while I'm watching.

When I make an effort to dress up, I rarely enjoy the experience.

Oh, I kind of like that.

When others compliment me, I have a hard time enjoying praise.

I agree.

I have a difficult time enjoying social interactions with family or friends.

I used to, but since the pandemic, I find that I'm way more introverted. Like, it feels like an energy drain.

It's hard to relax and enjoy a holiday or vacation.

Everybody that knows me that is sitting here with us is laughing. And if you're watching this on YouTube, you can see it. But I'm having this experience where I literally feel like I am in an intake appointment with Dr. Judith because she looks at her paper, then looks at me and nods knowingly and does her little thing and then asks the next one. I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm already.

Okay, what else we got? I find it hard to enjoy listening to music.

I disagree with that. One of the few things I like.

This is a little personal.

Okay.

I have a difficult time enjoying physical intimacy or sexual behavior.

Yeah, my sex life has definitely taken a hit since the pandemic. I think we're both exhausted. We do a lot of talking about wanting to have sex with each other, but know by the time I get into the bedroom, Chris is asleep and I'm, like, too tired to wake him up. And so, yeah, that's definitely taken a hit.

I rarely enjoy self care activities such as a warm bath or Manny petty.

Oh, I love those. I just don't make enough time for them.

I rarely enjoy simple pleasures such as a nice cup of coffee or tasting a delicious beverage smelling sweet scents.

I disagree with that one.

I rarely enjoy beautiful art.

I agree.

I have a hard time enjoying the work that I produce because I often feel it is not good enough.

Oh, my God, my poor team was just like, yes, she absolutely is that way. Relentless. Like, I'm relentless.

So even if I am producing high levels, I have a hard time enjoying this.

Yes. That's my biggest complaint about work right now, is that even though we are killing it, I'm no longer enjoying it as much as I used to. And I want to get back to this point where I really love it. I love talking to you right now, and I love the work, but there's just this feeling that it never ends and that I can't stop thinking about it, and I don't want it to be that way.

Well, thank you for your bravery. Now, here's how we address it.

Okay, so do I have Anedonia?

You have very high levels of it based on this shit.

Okay?

But that's okay. A lot of us do. In fact, I did at one point. And that's why I became so into this, because, like you, I'm an entrepreneur. I have my lab. I have families that depend on me. My own family depends on me. I was work, work, work, working. And then after a while, it was just like, things that used to excite me didn't excite me anymore. So the way to get back into your body and a way to feel again, feel the feels right, is to focus on those simple pleasures in life. Not that big grand scheme of this idea of happiness. But today, how do we increase the points of joy? Because when we add them all together, overall, you feel happier, right? Happy out the window. Picture of happy out the window, happier overall, is what we're trying to achieve.

That makes all the sense in the world. And the first thing that I recognize that I think probably everybody recognizing that was saying, I agree, I agree. Or thinking in their own mind as you were going through the questions, is the first thing that comes to mind, just being honest, is, but I can't slow down to do those things. And I feel like that happened during the pandemic. I feel as though in the last four years, I was walking on a treadmill, and all of a sudden, I don't know who the hell came by. And all of a sudden, tap, tap, tap. Took me from walking at 2.5. Next thing you know, I'm in a valet jog. Like when somebody goes to get your car and they go to jog and to get it, and now I'm in a sprint and I want to slow down.

Well, you went through a trauma. Like, your show shut down, then you were on the go, and then a whole bunch of things happen. Like, I don't know your personal life, but if you don't take the time to process all those traumas, then you're just using everything else to soothe. And it's a distraction. It'll never be enough because you're not getting to processing that trauma. You're not feeling the feels. And one simple thing everyone can do, right? Let's pick one thing on here that I can do right now and demonstrate with you. Just even with a cup of water. Usually I like to use glass.

Okay. They don't trust me because they think I'm going to break it. No, I'm just kidding. Do you want glass?

No, it's okay.

We'll get glass.

Imagine it's glass.

We have your glass. Do you want glass? I think you'll. Sure? Yes, she would like glass. Should I have glass?

Yes.

Okay, we're going to get glass. So how many people, as we get the glasses, how many people would you say if you were to just throw out a percentage based on your research, how many people are struggling with anedonia?

It's hard to say because it's hard to measure it. And when we try to track anedonia through the populations, it's difficult to measure because Anedonia could be related to schizophrenia, depression, substance use. But I think that when we look at the model of the biopsychosocial, how we're all using these behavioral addictions. I don't like the word addiction, but when we look at these behaviors as being self soothing, because they're habit forming behaviors, right, where it's somehow dependent on the money, dependent on the. Or the bushiness, everything. It's all like an addiction, right? So it's hard to measure, but I would guess that it's a very high number. And I think it's hard to measure because people don't know what it is, right? They don't know the name, but hopefully they'll know what it is and they'll be able to address it.

Well, I think the first step is validating.

Yes.

That absolutely everyone experienced some level of this over the last three or four years. And there's no way that you could be living in the modern world and not have it impact you and what it feels like in your body. And I've even noticed that time off hasn't even refreshed me the way that I thought it would. Like I just literally got back from a vacation with my family and celebrating grandparents birthdays, and I don't feel refreshed. I feel even more tired, honestly. And that never used to be the case. And so if you were not looking at the data, but you were saying, based on common sense and just the wide range of people that walk in and out of your practice and in your research institute every day, do you think that this is something that's impacting absolutely everybody on some level?

I think so. I think everyone has points, just like the points of joy that are lost throughout the day. Everyone experiences the numbing. We have to remember that. Numbing. Right. Fight, flight, freeze.

Right.

Those are trauma responses. So not only are we just busying ourselves and not feeling, but we're also not feeling as a sense, a way to survive this. Right.

Right.

If we felt it, then maybe some of us would be terrified with that feeling.

Well, you know, the other thing is, honestly, I love you, Dr. Judith, but I don't want to fucking feel this. Like, I feel like I went through it. I want it to be over with. I want to move on. And yet there is a deeper level of happiness. And what I love about that, I want. And what I love about your research is that you are doing this with people that are moving on, that are high functioning, that do have their jobs, that are paying their bills, that are doing all this and yet can't access it. And so I also like that what you're providing us is you're about to teach us this exercise we can do every day that costs no money and that doesn't require you to take time off and to take a vacation that you're actually. No, no. You got to put this in your day to day life and realize we're warming up our feelings again. And before Dr. Judas shares a specific exercise that you can do to create more joy, I would love for you to take a moment and listen to our sponsors, who allow me to bring this to you at zero cost.

So take a short listen. I'll be waiting for you right after a short break. Stay with me. Welcome back. It's Mel, and we're talking to Dr. Judith Joseph. We've already talked about why so many of us are feeling like we're not ourselves. And now Dr. Joseph is about to jump back in and lead us through a simple tool that you can use right now to get in touch with the you that feels like it's missing and these small amounts of joy that you deserve to feel in your life.

So you're going to love this because it's a grounding technique. And what we described was trauma. And your viewers, your listeners, they are very familiar with 54321.

Right.

Already. Write the countdown.

Right.

Well, there's something called the 54321 grounding method. Okay. And when you list five things that you see, four things that you feel, three things that you hear, two things you could smell, and one thing you can taste. And if you did 1 minute of those things, that's 15 minutes. It sounds like, oh, easy. Breathe. No, it's very difficult for people who are on autopilot to take 15 minutes to do anything. Okay, so let me just describe 1 minute of all those things.

Let's do it.

On the Anedonia scale, we have different things like tasting, seeing. They're all stimulating the senses. Toddlers, when they're young, we encourage them to explore their environment and they just enjoy it so much. And you see them rolling around with this garbage and they're putting in their mouth and they're really having joy because they're feeling, they're really in the moment. So we all drink water?

Yes. Okay. We got a cup here.

And in the morning, this is what I do. It's my 1 minute of grounding myself and enjoying something very simple because I'm increasing that point of joy.

Okay.

So I'm going to look at it and I'm describing what I see. I'm looking at that and saying, it's clear. I see my pink nail polish. I love it. You can describe things in your environment that you're seeing. I see you. You have beautiful blonde hair. There's a statue right there. There's a beautiful flower behind you. It's yellow, it's green. So I'm describing things that I see. But really with the act of drinking the water, you want to describe what you're seeing. Okay, so I see this glass and I see the water shining and I'm going to really be present in the moment. As I hold the glass, I'm going to describe what I'm feeling in my hand. It's cold, it's cool. On some points it's hard. And I'm listening to my fingernails tap on it. I like the sound of that ASMR right there. And then it feels cool on my tongue. I was really thirsty, so that felt really good going down. Some water has a minerally taste. This one's very fresh. There's no smell to it. But you can do this with beverage that smells. And I'm really paying attention to how it feels going down my throat.

I'm going to take another sip.

And.

I'm looking at the glass and I'm trying to be present in the moment, but I really enjoyed that sip of water. I really fully enjoyed it. How many times do we enjoy just the sip? So we're adding up all the sips, the points of joy in life. So take the time. Five things that you saw this morning for me. I flew here from New York. I looked at the sun rising. I saw the beautiful New York City skyline. I liked the waterfront here in know there were things that I saw. I touched my loved ones, because when you touch people, it releases oxytocin. I wear this furry jacket, and I love to feel like you can really enjoy the senses if you took the time. And it sounds loosey goosey and, like, very granola. But the science shows that if we can really increase those points of joy in a day overall, we'll feel happier instead of chasing this idea of happy. Tomorrow's not promised.

You know, when you feel this burnt out, you kind of hear that and you go, oh, for God's sakes, Dr. Jude, seriously, you're telling me to drink water? And I say that because I want to represent the person who's listening, who can't quite comprehend how savoring a glass of water like that and slowing yourself down could possibly make a dent into this feeling of meh, or emptiness. And so how does that actually.

Create.

More meaning and happiness in your life overall? If you are adding up small moments, which, if I had to really pull it apart, where you are stopping and you are getting out of your racing thoughts and you are dropping into your body and you are forcing yourself to come into the present moment by activating all five senses.

It's the five second rule, right? The thought, feelings, behavior triangle in cognitive behavioral therapy. Classically, when we're trained, we're thinking, if you shift the thought, then you shift the feeling, then the behavior changes, right? But if you shift the behavior, even if you don't feel like doing it, it pushes everything the other way. For example, if you take this quiz at home and you're not enjoying, let's say, physical intimacy.

Yes.

Try simmering. Simmering is a term used.

What the hell is simmering? What am I doing with Chris tonight?

Simmering is a term that's used in marriage and couples counseling, where you don't have full on, hot, passionate session, but you may gently rub the small of your partner's back, right? And it creates this little excitement. You're like, oh, where'd that come from? Right. It's not the full on act, but it's a taste of it. That moment of joy does so much for one person. Try it with your pet. We love our pets. Touch your pet more. Those tiny moments that make life worth living. If you can increase those moments overall, you'll do better. If you sit down to have a meal, you may not be able to sit and be like, oh, I'm eating my delicious salad just for 1 minute of that meal. Just take it in. Say, oh, there are like mushrooms in here. The corn tastes like this. So this is crispy. Oh, I like this chipotle kind of sauce. 1 minute and see, compare. Do your own little experiment. Be a little scientist. Compare how you felt in that 1 minute to the five minutes where you're trying to shove it in before your next meeting. Right. So you really have to challenge yourself and say, do I really want to increase my points of joy?

Then let me try this. Take the test, then start building up. You may not be able to do 15 minutes. It's very, very difficult for even the most determined person.

I'm just going to say there's no way I can. Yeah, I'm going to go right on the record and say, I can sit and watch the sunset. My dog watches the sunset every night up in Vermont. I could sit with him for a minute, too, maybe just take it in. I want to see if I can translate what's happening because I believe that this matters. I am at a moment where I am particularly burnt out and I'm aware of it. Like, I feel that kind of hollowness and I can have fun, but it's kind of lingering. And if I really try to absorb what you're saying, I think what you're saying is that if you are struggling with this sense of blah or emptiness, it is because your feelings are very. Just kind of turned off. When a knife isn't sharp, they're very dull. Your feelings are muted. Right. You're up in your head. Your feelings are muted. You're going through the motions. And every one of these moments, whether it is stroking your partner's back or hugging your dog or stopping to watch the sunrise or taking a minute to really savor that glass of water through all five senses, you are forcing your feelings to come back online.

And that if you do that throughout the day, whether it's taking a bite of your salad at lunch and truly chewing it, or it is putting the phone down and just enjoying the series that you're watching and noticing how you feel as you do hugging your children and allowing yourself to feel that. That by bringing your feelings back online, you are all day long fighting the Anedonia and you are retraining your feelings to come back. You're basically saying it's safe to feel again. Is that why this works?

You're validating yourself when you don't feel, you're gaslighting yourself.

What does that mean? What do you mean? You're gaslighting yourself.

You're telling yourself that it's okay. You don't have to think about what's really going on inside. Just push through and everything will be okay. But it's not okay if it was okay. You feel okay, but you feel me. You feel, yeah. So validate how you're feeling. If you are not true with yourself, how can you fix things? How can things get better? You got to start telling the truth, and you do that by validating how you feel. And many of us, that feels very, very uncomfortable for cultural reasons because we're raised in families where that just didn't happen. But start small, and it sounds so cliche, but we have to start somewhere. Start with that sip of water. Start with playing with your child on the floor. Just one, two minutes of playing with your child without a device and really listen to them. Play with your dog without being on the phone or, like, watching tv. Stay rooted in the moment and start feeling again. And slowly, you may start to feel sad, and that's okay. You may cry. That's okay. But you're feeling. And if you can feel these feelings, then you can feel happier, too.

I love this, and I think I love it because it's a concept that it's easy to write an Instagram post about the fact that we're all chasing these big lives and these big things and these promotions and all that stuff. But really, a beautiful life is a simple life, and a beautiful life is a life that's made up of the simple things that you actually take the time to enjoy. And I also love the fact, Dr. Judith, that you, from your clinical and research experience, are validating what so many of us are feeling based on the collective experience of the last four years, that you can kind of return back to that baseline and you can actually amplify, using this points of joy method, your kind of fulfillment in life. And I would imagine that the more that you do that, the more successful you become, the more connected you feel, the better you can focus, the better that you sleep. Like, how does paying attention to these points of joy and bringing your feelings back online and really taking care of your kind of spiritual feeling self, your whole being, how does that impact the rest of your life?

I mean, I know it sounds like a dumb question, but I feel like sometimes when the advice seems too easy, we are so fast to be like.

Eh, usually when it sounds easy, it's not right. And when you start to feel the feels, you know how I said anhedonia is contagious? Joy is contagious, too. And I experienced this with my lab. When I was happier and more joyful, my lab, they were happier and more joyful. When I was happier and more joyful, my daughter was more happier and more joyful. It is contagious. And you may not see this, but for that single mom working out there who doesn't have time to play with her child, we see you. We're not asking you to put, like, 15 minutes there to play with your kid. Try five minutes. Try a small five minutes, because the data shows that even five minutes of one on one time with your child, where you're just listening to them, you're letting them lead the play. That alone, just five consistent minutes a day, is enough sometimes to repair a relationship. And again, it's contagious. So if you think that you're high functioning and you're pushing through, look around you. Your kids are doing it, your partner is doing it, your coworkers are doing it, right? If you start to have that joy, people will want it.

They're going to be like, what's that person doing? I want a little bit of that. It spreads.

Well, I think that's also why it's persisted for so long, because we're all doing it.

Yes.

Everybody's kind of at that same level of feeling, like they're just getting by. I'm curious, what is one thing as a psychiatrist, that you never do? Because, you know, it robs you of the joy and the happiness that you want to feel?

It's interesting because as a psychiatrist for 15 years, I've had these, like, five year blocks, right? The first five years, I was a psychiatry resident learning how to treat adults, then a fellow learning how to treat children. So that was after a huge life change when I switched out of anesthesiology into psychiatry. So I was just, like, trying to figure things out.

Right.

Then the next five years, I was starting a business, starting a lab, seeing patients, a new wife, a new mom. So it was, like, a lot of news. And then the last five years, navigating life as a single mother, navigating life without a business partner, like, doing it all on my own. But with my team, I've just seen so many things. So when you say never, wow, there's so many things.

Well, give them all. Take them all.

First of all, never say never, okay? If you asked me when I was a medical student, are you going to be a psychiatrist? I was like, I'm not working with crazy people. I came to medical school to be a real doctor because I was raised by caribbean american parents. Like, the immigrant mentality. Like, you got to be a real doctor. You're the first doctor in the family. You got to be the real doctor. So I would have never thought psychiatry. Thank God I found psychiatry. It has saved me. Oh, my goodness. In so many ways. I look at people and relationships so differently based on what I've learned. I see attachment theory everywhere I turn, and it's really shifted the way that I approach life and how I approach the idea of happiness, right? So I truly am grateful for it. So never say never. No is not negative. Because at one point, I was a yes girl. Yes, I'll do that. Yes, I'll take that study. Yes, I'll do. I mean, there's no award for that, and you can't take those accolades to the grave, right? So no is not a negative. New sometimes feels very unnatural, but new can be good.

So don't be afraid of change, right? Normal is not real. So we're learning that neurodivergence, neurodiversity is a thing. We've all got something. We may not have a DSM five diagnosis, but we have something. We all have attachment issues and so forth, or, like, attachment styles. We all have something about us, right? And it's really important to acknowledge that what is considered normal, just throw it out the window. And I think that what I said about tomorrow not being promised, the last thing is now, what do you want now? Right? Instead of thinking, what do I want down the road? What do I want now? What do I want today? Tomorrow is not promised. How do I improve my points of joy today? If you're listening, figure one of those things out that I read out on the Anedonia scale. Find one of those things and enjoy it today. Tomorrow is not promised.

So are all the things on the quiz and the scale points of joy.

They are. They're things that are the simple things in life. And on the shaps that I mentioned, the older scale, there were some things that weren't there that I have on mine, like the modified version, but I wanted to bring it into present day. Like, what are the modern day joys? So if you're not taking in the simple joys today, then overall you're, like, losing points. So let's try to get some more points today.

Yeah. For you type a people. We're going to turn this into a competition. No, I'm just kidding. As a practicing psychiatrist and researcher, what are the top ways that people can bring more joy into their daily life? Like the simple things that you would recommend to somebody.

I look at the biopsychosocial model, right. Biology, like your body so you can eat things that are proven to boost your mood. Like what? Green vegetables, omega three fatty acid foods, like certain fish berries that are antioxidants, dark chocolate. There's something in these food groups for everyone. Figure out what it is and just eat more of it.

Right.

And then the biological, of course, like try to keep toxins out of your body. Certain things you can't control. You can't control your genetics and certain disease states, but you can take care of your physical health, right? Because if you have worsened physical health, you have worsened mental health, the psychological component. We talked heavily about trauma, right? And other people don't just have this, they have other things. Some people have anxiety conditions, ADHD, and really try to support those areas because your mind is so important, so precious, but validate that trauma. That's what everyone can do. They can start saying, listen, I went through this. There's nothing that I did. Something happened to me. Just start validating that.

Thank you for explaining that, because here's what I'm hoping as you listen. You're getting from this conversation that there is a direct connection between the level of happiness and joy you can access in your present life right now. That feeling of being kind of meh or burnt out or blah or whatever word you want to use. Stuck autopilot, going through the motions, exhausted. Direct connection between happiness, joy, that and the fact that you are still processing the very overwhelming experiences of the last three or four years. And for many of you, you're still in a work cycle where you're in Zoom meetings all day, you're still working on the weekends, and your phone is always on you. Or you're dealing with the fallout of how it's impacted your kids. And it's very, very real. And Dr. Judith is here to validate that. She's here to say that it is a very real thing that is impacting people's happiness and ability to get access to these points of joy. And that the solution is very simple and it's something that you can introduce into your life right now, which is slowing down and bringing your feelings back online.

And it sounds dumb that that's the solution. But I know you're right, because I've experienced this in my own life. And last year, I was doing that and creating that time for myself. And in the past four months, things have been so insanely busy here at work and with some changes in my home life, living up in Vermont, I don't even go to the details, but that I've stopped doing all those little things that made me feel grounded and connected and alive and happy.

Happier.

Happier. Okay, now, why did you say happier versus happy?

When you think of happy, there's a picture. This is happy, and this is what it has to be, but happier. Increase the points in a day. It's not about being happy. It's about being happier.

How long does this take? I'm so type a. I'm like, I want to know if I start doing. What could somebody expect? Like, if somebody's in your practice? Because I really want everybody to try this.

It starts right away. The moment you start slowing down and enjoying that point of joy, that sip of water. You've already increased a point. Right? It's that simple. But doing it slowly and adding up the points matters.

What are the simple steps for taking better care of yourself in 2024?

So we have, like, the typical self care, right? Like the halts. If you're hungry, eat. If you're angry, do something positive to self soothe. If you're lonely, phone a friend. If you're tired, take a rest. And I added an s to it for stuck, because that's what I refer to Anedonia is sometimes you just feel stuck, like. And so address the basic self needs. We think self care is elaborate and, like, get your nails done. But I've been in that chair where I'm like, hurry up and get my nails done. I need to go. This is stressing me out. Right. So again, we're going back to the basics. Look at a child when they're drinking their milk, they're just like, in such joy. If we could just drink our coffee the way that a child drinks their milk, how much better would our lives be? We all have the DNA and the programming to really enjoy life. But along the way, we stop learning how to. It becomes less important. We can retrain our brains, we can get back to the basics, and we can be happier.

Is there an age at which people stop playing and stop? Because you talked about this example of a kid with a box. Is there actually an age where this happens?

It's interesting because I see it a lot across different industries. For example, I was premed. And so when you look at the premed track kids, they are just like. You're like, oh, my goodness. Their future is going to be hard. That's Anedonia waited to happen. Right? But in other fields, like creative fields, I see play being more encouraged until, not to say creatives don't have Anedonia. I see a lot of creatives with Anedonia, you're looking at one until it becomes, perform, perform. Hide your feelings. No one wants to see you sad, right? So you're doing something you love, you're getting joy. And then when it's time for the job and the accolades, it's like, well, you can't ever show your true feelings. Show up happy. No one wants to see a sad face. So you see this with actors, right?

Yeah.

You see actors saying, people thought I had this great life, but I was wearing a mask, because no one wants an actor who is a Debbie downer, right? So I think it depends on the industry, but I do think certain industries breed this. Teachers, we talked about educators, what they went through, how many educators, they start off like, oh, I love what I do. And then now it's like, well, I have to stay after school and help this child, the student. I have to use my money to buy some products for the classroom. They sacrifice a lot of their own joy because it's rewarded, right? This is a dedicated educator. They did this for their students. But these martyr type of roles, they don't feed your soul. And so I think if we, again, can go back to the basics, even if you're a teacher listening to this, don't grade those exams through your lunch break. Take the lunch break. Just one day a week, not all days. You're like, oh, no one's doing this. And like the try it. Try it one time. The world will not fall apart if you take your lunch break.

So you really have to push back on these notions.

I am so just grateful that the conversation went as deep and as profound as it did so quickly when you sat down in that chair. Never in a million years did I think we were going to be talking about the collective kind of trauma symptoms that everybody's experiencing based on the last four years. I want to thank you for validating it because I see the notes and the comments and the just reviews that people from around the world are writing into us about this podcast and about YouTube. And I have been so profoundly sad about what is clearly a massive uptick in the number of people that feel numb and that feel stuck and that know that something is off, but they don't know how to access it. And so I am grateful that you just told the entire planet that what you went through over these last four years that you barely can remember or you don't even want to, that that impacted you and that that is the barrier. And that's why you have not been feeling like yourself and that it's real. And that there are simple things that you can do based on what you're doing with your research and your clinical practice, to reconnect with yourself and to bring your feelings back online.

And it's right there waiting for you. Thank you.

Well, thank you for being vulnerable and for sharing and validating how people feel and validating what I'm studying. We all can identify universally with the feeling of love, but we also can identify with the feeling of joy, and we just want more of it.

Now you know how to get it. So thank you. Thank you, Dr. Judith. And I also want to take a minute and thank you. And in case nobody else tells you today, I think you can feel it in this conversation that we not only believe in you, but I know I love you. And I know that Dr. Judith is sending you love. And we believe in your ability to create a better life. And part of having a better life is slowing down. It is validating your experience, and it is taking the time to turn inward and bring your feelings back online, to allow yourself to have that joy back in your life. So now go do it. I'll talk to you in a few days. You. Are you guys ready? Start.

Action.

I never know if I'm supposed to go with start or action. Because you say start and I'm like, is that when I go? Or does she say action? I don't know. Okay, you can do whatever you want. It's whatever you want to do. Can you shrink the font size a little on this? Awesome. That way I'll be able to see a little bit more. Can you go up more? No, sorry. I need to see. Okay, great. Okay, I can remember that. My. Without sounding creepy, I have a huge crush on you, Dr. Judith. Joseph, I don't even know where to start with you. When I think about how smart you are and the work that you're doing out in the world, my heart just explodes. Amazing. All right, it. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional.

Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

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