Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. I got a question for you. What does it mean to live a good life? You know, you and I can get so caught up in the stupid things that you forget one of the biggest and most important aspects of your life that at some point, it's going to be over. Will, you have lived a good life? You and I are so busy trying to get to the next thing, to make a certain amount of money, drive a certain kind of car, get a certain number of followers, look a certain way, have certain things. But is that really what creates a good life? When you lay on your deathbed and you look back on your life, did you live a good life? Well, today, you and I are not only going to consider that question, you're also going to learn the secrets to living a good life from an 86 year long study at Harvard. It is the longest study that has ever been done on happiness, relationships, and the human experience. Wherever it is that you're listening from, no matter how young or old you are or how much money you have in the bank, what you will learn today will inspire you to live a good life.

Hey, it's Mel, and I am so glad you tuned in today. Holy cow. I already feel myself getting emotional, like, I don't know why I'm so moved by what we're about to talk about, because we haven't even had the conversation yet. We're answering the question, what makes a good life? Whoo. I need to take a deep breath because the tears are already rolling down my face. And I'm so moved because I know that this is the most important conversation that you could have. And I want you to really slow down and pay attention to what you're about to hear, because this really matters. Everything that you are going to learn today is based on the single longest study ever done on happiness. This study began at Harvard in 1938. The study is on its 86th year. This is not some study where they have people fill out forms and then they never see them again. They literally tracked people's lives until the end of their life. It's called the Harvard study of adult development, and the director of that study is here to share all of the research and more importantly, what you need to prioritize, starting today, in order to live a good life.

There is nothing more important than this conversation, because one of these days, you're going to find yourself at the end of your life, and you're going to look back and ask yourself, did I live a good life. And it is my hope that your answer is yes. That you're proud of yourself, that you're surrounded by people that you love, that you use the time that you had to really enjoy your life. It is an absolute honor to introduce you to doctor Robert Waldinger. He's the director of the Harvard study of adult development. He's also a psychiatrist, a professor at Harvard Medical School, and a Zen priest. He's the author of the amazing book and the international bestseller the Good Life. And he is here to share all of the research, the secrets, and some very surprising takeaways. And I am certain that by the time you're done listening, your life will not be the same. I hope you share this profound conversation with everyone you know and love, because we all deserve to live a good life. So please help me welcome Doctor Robert Waldinger to the Mel Robbins podcast.

I'm so glad to be here.

Have you ever had anybody else cry during the opening?

Not during the opening, no. But it's like, for me, it means so much because you get what we're doing and you get why it's why it matters. Like, you know that you really get it. And it's like, wow, what could be better for somebody who just wrote a book, really, if you think about it. So, thank you. Thank you for getting choked up.

You're welcome. I mean, I didn't do it. Like, I literally am just so moved by what you're doing, and I really mean it.

Thank you.

I guess I spent so much of my life causing myself a lot of unnecessary heartache.

Yeah.

And it's because I didn't know any better.

And you're not alone. I mean, so many of us, myself included, caused so much heartache just by what we imagined was true. That wasn't really true about life.

True. And also chasing the wrong things. I just know that this really matters. And so let's talk about first this study, so that the person listening has context for why this study is so important, how it is different, and the impact that it can make on their life. So can you just tell us about the study?

Sure. First of all, nobody would ever have dreamed when the study began that we would still be going today. It started in 1938, and it started with two groups of young men. First, Harvard College undergraduates. So a very privileged group, and boys from Boston's poorest and most disadvantaged families, a very underprivileged group. And then eventually, we expanded to spouses, we expanded to children. But initially, it was a study of thriving. The question was what helps people make that transition from adolescence into young adulthood on good developmental paths? And, of course, with Harvard undergraduates, we think, well, they've got their lives all set up. They're privileged, but with the inner city boys. And they were on average, about twelve when they entered the study. The question was, how do some children from really disadvantaged homes manage to stay on good developmental paths and grow up into healthy, happy adults? So both groups were studied with the question of what helps us thrive, and.

How did the study work? So you started in 1938. You've got a group of two very different people, right? Or that's the assumption because they come from very different backgrounds. And how did the study actually work?

Well, the Harvard group consisted of 268 young men and the inner city group, 456. We started with medical exams, psychological interviews. We went to their homes and talked to their parents and sometimes their grandparents. And the workers made notes about disciplinary style in the home and even what was being served for dinner in 1948. And then they were followed all the way through adolescence into adulthood. Some famous people. John F. Kennedy was part of the Harvard group. Ben Bradley, who was the longtime editor of the Washington Post, the Boston Strangler, was part of the inner city group. But most people were not famous. They weren't infamous. They were just living their lives.

And then how did you follow them? Because it didn't end with just this sort of one series of interviews.

No. And most studies do end that way. Or most studies that try to follow people over time stop before ten years are up because too many people drop out. So this study followed people year after year with questionnaires. How's your life going? Interviews every ten years, where we went to their homes and sat down with them and talked about their lives, medical exams, getting their medical records from their doctors. And then, and this is the coolest thing, eventually we brought in new techniques. So we studied the same big things, like physical health, mental health, work life, relationships. But we started bringing in new techniques as science developed them. So now we draw blood for DNA and messenger RNA. Those things weren't even imagined. In 1938. We put people into the MRI scanner and look at their brains and how they light up when we show them different images again. People would have thought this was like something from outer space if we had told you in 1938, we could put you in a scanner and look inside at your brain. So it's a really exciting way to see how we can bring in the new tools of science to look at the same questions about well being.

What is the biggest takeaway from this 86 year long study.

The biggest takeaway is that the people who live the longest, stay the healthiest and are the happiest are the people who have more relationships with other people and warmer relationships with other people. That the people who literally saw more people in a given week, the people who felt happier with their relationships, actually lived years longer and they stayed healthy, or they didn't develop the diseases of aging as soon, as soon, if they developed them at all. Compared to people who were more isolated.

Who didn't care about relationships, what was the most surprising?

The surprise was not that relationships keep us happier, because, sure, if we have warmer relationships, we're going to be happier. The surprise was that they keep us physically healthier. So how could relationships get into the body and shape our physiology so that good relationships make it less likely that we'll get coronary artery disease. They make it less likely that we'll get type two diabetes. How is that even possible? So, in the last ten years, that's what we've been studying in our laboratory.

How is it possible?

Well, it turns out. So the best hypothesis we have with good data is that it has to do with stress, that relationships are stress regulators. So if you think about it, we're stressed at different times all day long. Like, I might leave here, and an hour from now, something really stressful might happen, and I can literally feel my body rev up, my heart rate revs up, my breathing gets faster. All that, right? Fight or flight response. What we know is that if I can go home and talk to somebody, if I can call somebody on the phone or talk to someone at home, I can literally feel my body calm down. And that's what the body's meant to do. So it's good that the body gets all revved up in response to stressors, to meet a stressor, but then it's meant to calm down. And what we think happens when we don't have good relationships is that we stay in a kind of low level fight or flight mode where we have higher levels of circulating stress hormones, higher levels of white blood cells ready to fight off danger, and that those things gradually break down multiple systems in the body over time.

One of the things that I thought was really interesting was that in the study that you could determine and predict who was going to be healthy at the age of 80 based on certain things you could see in the present. Can you tell us about that?

Yeah. So we had studied everybody out to age 80, and we thought, okay, we have all this information about them year after year after year. Let's look back at them in middle age. So we picked 50. Let's look back at everything we know about them and say, what are the strongest predictors? Since we know what they look like at age 80, what's the strongest predictor of who's going to be healthy and happy at age 80? When we look at age 50, when we looked, it wasn't their cholesterol levels, it was how happy they were in their relationships. Initially, we didn't believe it. We reanalyzed the data because we said, this can't be true. And then other studies of different groups of people began to find the same thing. And that's how you know you have a scientific truth. Not when one study, even our study shows something. It's when many studies point to the same thing.

So, doctor Waldinger, can you talk directly to the person listening? Because there are so many people that write in and listen to the show around the world who either feel super lonely or they are not happy in their relationships. What is your message to that person about what's possible for them?

Yeah, well, if you think about it, there are many reasons why you might not be happy in your relationships, and there are many reasons why you might be lonely. So let's start with your current relationships. What are the reasons for not being happy? So at the worst end, there are really toxic relationships. There are abusive relationships where we might feel afraid of a partner. Those are relationships where when we can, we need to step away. If there's violence, if there's terrible emotional or physical or sexual abuse, okay, that's at the extreme end. But most of our relationships aren't troubled in that way. Most relationships have difficulties. I've been married for 38 years. Do I ever have disagreements with my wife? Of course. I mean, any relationship with friends or family that's of any importance is going to have disagreements. So then the question is, are those relationships worth the work of working out difficulties? And in many cases they are worth the work. So then the question is, can you work it out? Can you in fact, first of all accept other people for the things you don't like as well as the things you like?

Just as we hope they'll accept us for the ways that I'm annoying and don't even realize it, maybe. But then can you also work out differences? Can you talk about what you care about, what's difficult for you in the relationship and see if you and the other person can come to a better understanding? Many times that's possible.

I want to go back to something that you said. Tell us about what you learned based on the study and the experience of being lonely.

One of the things we've learned when we study loneliness is that the causes of why we're lonely are many. And so, again, the first step is to think about, why do I feel lonely? So remember, loneliness is that experience of feeling less connected to other people than I want to be. So I could be lonely in my marriage. I could be lonely in a crowd. It doesn't necessarily mean being alone on a mountaintop.

Can I just stop you right there? Because I think I just got something. Just probably five years ago, I was struggling profoundly with loneliness. I was extraordinarily busy, but I felt very disconnected from my husband, Chris. I felt like I never saw my friends. I didn't feel connected to the community that I lived in. And even though I was surrounded by people all the time on planes, at work, even standing in the kitchen with my husband, Chris, I felt this deep sense of disconnection. But I read it as something is wrong with me, as just this sort of indictment that I've done something. And the way that you just said it, I had this little epiphany where I was like, oh, wait a minute. What if when you feel lonely, it's just like a signal, sort of like hunger or thirst, that there's something that you want? There's nothing wrong with you other than the fact that you need human connection, you need this feeling of belonging in your relationships. So I just wanted to make sure that as you're listening, that I highlighted that. And so one takeaway already is in those moments where you find yourself lonely, catch yourself on that default of making yourself wrong and go, oh, wait a minute.

I remember from this interview that I heard that this is actually a signal that there's something to do.

Exactly. That is perfect. And that moment of making yourself wrong or making the world wrong, that if we can get out of the mode of blaming anybody, but just say, oh, this means I want connection. It can be so helpful. And actually, when couples come into therapy and they're angry at each other, often what you get to help them see is that underneath what they're yearning for is, I want to be closer to you. And that once they get that, oh, my gosh, everything changes. So once we stop blaming ourselves or anybody else and we just say, oh, I'd like more connection. What's making that difficult right now? And then we start looking at the things that we might be able to do to make more connection.

So if you were to take that and turn it into something that somebody can do. So if you're listening and you do feel lonely or you're listening, you're like, oh, I relate to what Mel just said. Like, feeling very disconnected from your partner is a simple step to simply go up and say, I've been feeling very lonely and I miss feeling connected to you.

Yes. Although that could feel like blame to a partner. But many partners will be okay with hearing that. Some partners may just need to hear, I'd love to spend a little more time. Could we go for a walk after dinner tonight? Making a positive suggestion might be a place to start.

I feel like I just got really good advice because I tend to go to Chris and just vomit the problem.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But making a positive suggestion for connection.

Yes. Yes. Because often when we vomit the problem, which I do too. At times when we vomit the problem, the other person is like, well, what do I do about that?

Right.

But what if we come with a suggestion of something that would help me feel more connected? And it can be small. It can be, you know, taking a walk. It can be, could we plan a night, just the two of us, to go out to dinner this week? Something very specific that's not hard to say yes to, to try that first. Now, what if you're lonely and what you realize is that I get scared when I'm with other people. Like, I'm afraid of being rejected. So that's something that's possible to work on. There are, first of all, books you can read about getting through social anxiety. There's therapy for it. Perhaps you have a trusted friend or a family member who you could talk to about what it's like to walk into a room and realize that you're afraid that people aren't going to like you. Because many of us have that feeling. So social anxiety is one common reason why we hold ourselves back from people sometimes. It's that we need to put ourselves in situations where connection is easier. The way to do that, they've actually studied this in research. The quickest way to make friends is to do something you care about or something you love to do, do it alongside other people, and do it again and again with those same other people.

So let's say you love gardening. Let's say you love pickleball. Let's say you love fighting for climate protection. Right? Anything that you love or that you're passionate about, put yourself in a situation where you can do that activity with other people. Because first of all, it brings you in contact with new people. It also puts you in a situation where you share something. We both are worried about climate change, or we both love bird watching. So you have an immediate place to start conversations if you're feeling awkward. Well, how do I talk to this stranger? And so that turns out to be the quickest way to make new relationships. The other thing that's worth remembering when you're thinking about talking to someone new is it's not going to go well every time. And that's okay. Think of it more like being up to bat in baseball. Like if you hit the ball one time out of three, you are doing amazing, and chances are youre going to get a friendly response from a stranger many more times than one out of three. Most of the time, people are going to be kind to you and going to respond well.

But dont worry if somebody doesnt, it might mean that theyre just having a bad day or theyre not in the mood to talk. Remind yourself that it's okay to try multiple times to talk to new people and that sometimes it's going to go well.

You did a mini Harvard study on your own life.

Yeah.

And I would love to have you walk us through how you do that for yourself.

Okay. What we called the mini Harvard study was noticing how my view of my life changes as I get older, as I go through different phases of life. Because I used to imagine that once I got into my twenties, I was supposed to find a profession and I was supposed to find a partner. And I had my friends and I was done, and I wasn't really going to change very much. I would just go through my life and then die. And of course, we know that doesn't happen, but it's very important to remind ourselves of how much life changes and how much we change. So the mini Harvard study is just go find a photograph of yourself. Maybe when you're half as old as you are now. Look at that photograph and ask yourself, what did life look like to me when I was that age? What was important to me, and how is it different now? How is it the same? What's important to me now? That has always been important. But what has changed? And what you'll see is how we all grow and change as we go through life. And that that's not only okay, that's absolutely essential.

So I got a photo of myself. I am 27 years old in this photo. This was the day. If you're watching on YouTube, you can see it. If you're listening, it's a photo of Chris and I hours, literally, after we had just gotten engaged. And this is kind of halfway through life. And so what are the questions that I'm asking myself?

So the question is, what did life look like to you then? What was most important to you then?

I felt like I had my whole life ahead of me. I was building a life with Chris, and I guess what was important to me, them was just him and making money.

Yeah.

Like, that was the focus. Like, how am I paying my rent? Because I was a public defender working for legal aid in New York City, and it was very hard to pay my bills in New York City on $19,000 a year. And so I just was maniacally focused on making money. And what is my next career move, and how does Chris feel about me? And that was the focus in life.

Okay, perfect. Now what? Now, what's most important to you now as you look at your life?

Oh, boy. So much. I mean, if I had to boil it down, it would be relationships. It would be my relationship with Chris, the people I work with, our children, our friends, family.

And do you feel like you have your whole life ahead of you?

I do. I really do. Like, I think one of the things that has happened for me is that there was a gripping. When I was 27 years old, everything felt like life or death. And that might have been because I had no idea how much childhood trauma had impacted me. I was still profoundly struggling with anxiety. So I lived in a very fight or flight space, and I had not discovered the life changing impact of really working on your inside life and settling your nervous system. And, you know, I would. The way that I would put it is I was really obsessed with the curtains on the window, what things looked like, how expensive they were. Like, how does it look compared to everybody else?

Yes.

And I had no idea how to enjoy the view.

Yeah, well, and that is exactly what happens to most of us as a species. We get more appreciative of the view. Right. We get less worried about what the curtains look like, and we look beyond to, oh, my gosh, the world is so beautiful. The world is so full of richness.

And I feel like I can see now, looking back, that because I was so obsessed with the stuff on the surface. Right? Like, the outside stuff. You know, I'm using the curtains as a metaphor. But the car that you drive, the amount of money that you make, the friend group that you're in, how much you weigh, what you look like, where you're buying a house, like, all that stuff on the outside, that it fueled a lot of insecurity and I didn't know what to do with it. And so when I think about where I'm at now, I am so focused on enjoying the view. And I really do believe that the best years of my life are ahead of me.

Yes.

That there are people that I will meet in the future that will be some of my most important relationships and friends that I haven't met yet.

Yes. Yes. Now, one thing I want to say is that when you opened this podcast, you reminded me, our listeners, we're all going to die, life is going to end. And what we think happens, there's good research on this, is that as we get older, the reality that life is short, that it's limited, rather than making us depressed, it actually makes us happier. Because what we do is we start savoring life. We start paying attention to what's really important. The curtains, the brand of my car, not so important as am I good to my family, am I doing things that mean something to me in my life. And so what happens is we shed some of the things that when we put them next to the fact that life is short, they sort of fall away, that we realize they're just not that important.

Beautiful. So, Doctor Waldinger, based on this study, what do we get wrong about happiness?

Well, we get wrong all the things that the culture tells us will make us happy. So the culture says, if you buy this make of car, you're going to be happier, you're going to be cooler. If you serve this brand of pasta to your family, your family dinners are going to be blissful, right? That's the message of the pasta ad we see on tv. If you use this face cream, you're never going to get old. You're certainly never going to look old. We're sold all these messages about what will make us happy. If you achieve a lot at work, people come to me saying, I feel terrible because I'm not a billionaire yet. And when I ask the question, well, what's the billion dollars going to be for? Many of them are wide eyed. They're like deer in the headlights. Well, I don't know. I just feel like I need to become a billionaire. So we're given these messages that this is what's important. When it turns out that those things don't actually make us happy, but they are measurable, they're like badges of achievement. And so we want those badges. It's sort of like our watches can tell us, okay, you've done 10,000 steps today.

Is that really what matters what my watch says or is what really matters, how my body feels when I move. And so what we want is to get beyond the badges of achievement to the substance of our life.

Why do we go after all of this wealth and all of this stuff? When I think deep down, we all kind of know it's not the answer, but we can't help ourselves from chasing it?

Well, because it looks like something we could get and then be done. That if I get there, then I'm going to be happy. When I reach that billion dollar mark, then I'm going to be happy. What turns out is that life isn't like that. When we say life is a journey, it can sound like a cliche, but it's not. Life is an ongoing process of change. What that means is we're never done. Our relationships are never done. Our happiness is never constant. We're going to move from being more happy to less happy, back to more happy. That's the truth of life. Even though what we wish for is a final resting place where it's never difficult again, that doesn't exist, right?

And if you're constantly chasing things, and you said getting to that final place, like, I get that house on the beach, I get the money in the bank, I find the love of my life. All these things that we're chasing, chasing, chasing, because we think that we get there and we will have that exhale and we'll feel what we want to feel. How do you counsel people, especially based on what you've seen in this study, to wrestle with that, though?

Well, the first is to recognize it, to believe it. Most of us say, no, wait. There has to be a way. In fact. So I'm a. A Zen master. I'm a roshi. And so people have said to me, well, you're finally at a place where you're always calm, you're always clear about life, and I say, no. Some mornings I wake up confused or sad or I feel like I'm doing it all wrong. And they say, wait, no, not you. You can't have those ups and downs. And I say, yes, me, everybody on the planet. So the first thing is to recognize it and then to say, okay, but there are ways that we can work with the challenges that are always coming our way. We can work with the ups and downs. There's a saying from John Cabot, Zinn, that I love. He said, you can't stop the waves, but you can learn how to surf. You can't stop the waves of challenge and unhappiness and anxiety and anger that come our way at times. But you can learn how to surface, you can learn how to work with them better.

Doctor Waldinger, I am loving this so much because you are making me think about the deeper meaning of life. And here's what I want to do next. I really want to get into what do I do? What do I do? So don't go anywhere. Make sure you share this conversation with people that you love. Take a listen to our sponsors. Doctor Waldinger and I will be back after a short break and we are going to dig into all of the steps, all of the actions, the simple things you're going to do to create a good life. Stay with us. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel. I'm so thrilled that you're still here with me and Doctor Waldinger. So Doctor Waldinger, can you give us more advice on exactly how we can implement this wisdom?

Well, by doing a lot of the things that science tells us makes us stronger. So for example, not being reactive when we can help it, when we can take a moment to stop and take a breath when we're feeling challenged. So when we're feeling anxious or angry or scared to just stop and be with it for a moment and say to ourselves, what's happening now? What's causing it? What is my wisest way to deal with this challenge right now? So just stopping, taking a little mini time out, taking a breath is the first step. And then using what I call our wise mind to say, okay, what has worked well in the past? What hasn't worked well? So you get the email that makes you angry and you want to fire off an angry email in response and you stop, you take a breath and you say, okay, what would be the wisest way to deal with this email that I want to get so mad about? Right. And sometimes I'm going to sleep on this. I'm going to wait till tomorrow morning and see how it looks to me. Tomorrow morning. Now, sometimes we don't have that time to step back, but most of the time we do.

Even if our partner says something that makes us furious, can we not rise to the bait? But can we stop and take a breath and say, I'm just going to take a moment here to hear what you said and think about how I can respond to you.

I wish we would have had this conversation two days ago because, no, I'm not kidding because there's a text that I sent that I sent in the heat of an anxiety wave and now I am sitting here two days later, it's not been responded to by the other person. And I, of course, am managing the wave of, oh, my God, I wish I hadn't sent that. How do I deal with this moment right now when I feel this regret that I didn't put myself in pause?

Okay, the first thing is, you don't beat yourself up about it. So when we feel like we've made a mistake, failure is fine. The question is, how do we learn from it? And I've done this, believe me, where I've fired off an angry response, and then I go, oh, no. But then, okay, how am I going to learn from it? So the point is, don't beat yourself up. Step away from that when you can, and say, okay, what am I going to learn here? And I have to learn it over and over again. It's not like it's one and done.

Well, I'll tell you, the fact that you're a Zen master and you are still struggling with this. I literally am like, why on earth would you become a Zen master if you still have to struggle with the same stuff that we all do?

Because part of what I teach is we all struggle with this. And part of the wisdom of Zen is to say, there is no final place. There's actually a saying in Zen, there is nothing to attain. And what we mean by that is there's no final place where we've got it all figured out. And that. That's so important to know. Otherwise, we tend to follow people who tell us they've got it all figured out. Nobody's like that. There's nobody on the planet who alone can fix it.

Well, I want to talk a little bit about money. What did this 86 year long study at Harvard tell you about the role that money plays when it comes to happiness in your life?

It's complicated. Money matters. Money matters. What we find when we do research on this is that having our basic needs met is vital. So, food security. Think of the billions of people who are food insecure, people who don't know where they're going to sleep tonight. People who don't know if they can educate their children, if they can pay for their medication. Having those basic financial needs met is essential. So there have been estimates in the research of, you need to make at least $75,000 a year in the US. But whatever the amount is, and it's kind of arbitrary, it's really, can I get my basic needs met? And until that happens, we are significantly less happy. But then if I make $75 million a year. That's not going to make me a whole lot happier than having my basic financial needs met. That's important, because if I set out to make myself happy by trying to make a lot of money, it's a fool's errand. It's not going to happen.

It's hard, though, to really accept that that's true. I've been in situations in my life, both when I was at the beginning of my career as a public defender. Right. Not making money, not able to, like, make the ends meet. I've been in a situation in my marriage where we couldn't pay our bills. We were just absurdly in debt, and there were liens on the house. And there is a level of acute and chronic stress and anxiety that you feel.

Absolutely.

When you cannot buy groceries or pay your rent.

Absolutely.

And so when you're in that situation, I hear what you're saying, which is until you can get your basic needs met, accessing a deeper level of happiness is going to be really difficult because you're not thriving. You have legitimate stress and problems that are overtaking your body and your mind, and that's a very, very real thing. So money becomes a really important tool to be able to relieve stress and solve some of your problems. But if I'm listening closely, you're saying it's not the point of your life. And too many of us fall into this trap where we believe, because of what we see on social media or what is celebrated in our culture, the new cars, the mansions, the jets, the all of it, that you start to think that it's the point of your life.

Yes. Yes.

And so we should think about money as a tool, not the point, exactly.

To think, well, what's the money for? And when I answer that, is that likely to actually make me happy? So we can each do a little internal check. What are the times when I've been the happiest? Was it actually when I had that new car? Maybe for a few minutes. But was it actually when I had that wonderful time with my niece and we just spent an afternoon knocking around the city of Boston together? That was magical for me. So what I know when I check in with myself is that the times that I'm happiest are having experiences with people I care about, doing things I care about, that they don't happen to be the things that money can buy. But if I were making $19,000 a year in New York City, darn right, money matters hugely. And you're absolutely right that it's a level of stress that prevents us from being happy until we have those needs met.

That was a great question that you asked us to contemplate. And so I want to ask you, as you're listening to just stop and think back on your life right now. And if you think about times where you are the happiest, what's interesting is I reflect on that question. It is 1000% when I am out doing something with other people. It is being for me. Anyway. Outside, we're hiking, we're sitting and watching the sunset. We are out working in the yard. We're exploring some new area, and it's with other people and these experiences. And so I suppose if you can even just switch your perspective and think about money as a tool to help create more of those connections and experiences with other people, you have a completely different lens on it.

Exactly. And they've actually studied this. They actually studied, like, what makes us happier? Paying for material things with our extra money or paying for experiences? What they find is that paying for experiences, whether it's going to a national park, tickets to a basketball game, going to a museum, whatever it might be, that makes us happier, and it makes us happier for longer than buying a physical object.

Awesome. Awesome. So let's talk about comparison. How does comparing where you are in life to somebody else impact your happiness?

There's a quote from Teddy Roosevelt that I love. He said, comparison is the thief of joy. And what we find when we study this is that people who compare themselves to other people more often, day to day, in a given day, you are less happy. And the people who don't compare themselves as much feel better about life and better about themselves.

How the heck do we stop? Isn't it human nature to compare yourself to somebody else?

It is human nature. But there are situations that pull for comparison and there are situations that don't.

And by pull, you mean it is triggering you to do it.

It makes us compare.

Gotcha. Okay.

Like, we almost can't help it. Okay. Okay. So what pulls for comparison? Doom. Scrolling through social media pulls for comparison. When I look at other people's curated lives, people's photos of beautiful meals or great vacations, and I compare it to my own mundane life of driving through traffic, I think I'm not living my best life. Everybody else has it figured out. Right?

Right.

So social media, if we consume it passively, pulls for comparison. Yes, but what about gardening? Right? What about bird watching? It doesn't really make us want to compare. It's just, oh, my gosh, that's so amazing.

What would you say, though, to a 20 year old that's listening to this? Because we have a huge range of listeners, and there's tons of families that share episodes back and forth, moms and dads sending to sons and daughters and vice versa. And so what would you say to the 20 year old? Because the second that you said bird watching and gardening, which by, you know, I'm going on an owl walking date with my husband, you know, like a tour with a local thing in our community on Sunday, and I can't wait. But if you had said bird watching and gardening to me, forget it. When I was in my twenties, I'd be, like, not listening to this anymore. So what do you say to somebody in their twenties who has grown up with a phone in their hand?

Yeah.

Who is now in a generation and in a life experience where everybody's outside life is on display, and it makes you feel terrible on the inside about where you are.

What I would say is make sure you're spending a lot of time in real life, a lot of time away from your phone, or at least with your phone in your pocket, never taking it out with people in activities that you love. So what are the activities that you love? Is it playing basketball? It could be just hanging out with your friends, doing nothing. I actually heard a story today on NPR about how video games can put some people into a state of flow where they're just in it. They're just, like, doing the game, and they're not thinking about, they're not comparing themselves. They're just trying to get better at this game. Can it addict us? Yes, it can. But video games can be a break from this comparison on social media. So there are all kinds of ways to find those places in your life where you're just in an activity that you love, that you're engaged in.

On that note, on video games, I think this is a really important experience to share, is that I think they're very different than your kid or your loved one. Scrolling on social media, because the social media and the surfing is passive, and video game playing is very active. And I remember when our son started getting super into video games. My husband and I would be in the kitchen arguing. Cause I was a big gamer when Atari came out and played video games all the time. And so I'm defending our son like, he doesn't need to be outside. Like, he loves it. He's really good at it. There's nothing wrong with gaming. I know you didn't game. And I remember having this huge epiphany once where I went to check in on him one afternoon, and he had a headset on, and there were seven of his friends playing.

Yeah.

And he wasn't alone. He was not only in a state of flow, doing something very active with his mind and solving problems and doing all this stuff, but he was talking to his friends as they were all playing this game together. And I say that because I think we often look at what's happening on the outside without realizing, oh, there may be something deeper here. And with video games, it doesn't surprise me that there's not only the state of flow, but a lot of people have found ways to stay very connected to other people by playing together.

Yes, and that's such an important point because we have these stereotypes, particularly of boys and young men, that, well, they're just kind of loners and they're on their video games and they're not making connections. But what you said is exactly right. Many young men will say, I'm with my friends and we're doing this thing. I mean, how is it different from playing basketball with your friends? Now, there's a physical element, but still there's a connection element in basketball and in some video games that I suspect is pretty similar.

Awesome. When you look at the research from this 86 year long study, what did the participants say at the end of their life? What were their biggest regrets and what were the big lessons?

Okay, the biggest regrets, two categories. One was, I wish I hadnt spent so much time at work. I wish I had spent more time with people I cared about. Almost the number one regret. And then the other regret, and this came more from women than from men, was I wish I hadn't worried so much about what other people thought. So those are the two big regrets. The things that people were proudest of were not their achievements. And many people had achieved a lot. It was, I was a good mentor, I was a good partner, I was a good parent, I was a good boss. You know, it was always about the relationships. Even among people who had won huge prizes or gotten big accolades. That's not what they named when they were looking back on their life.

You said the biggest regret, particularly for women, was wasting so much of your life worrying about what other people think.

Yeah.

How do you stop doing that?

Well, it's realizing that, first of all, most of that's not going to matter when we're dead. Right. But what will matter? Am I treating people well? That will matter, and people will remember it even after we're gone. It's not what people think, but it's what I do. So one of the sayings I like a lot is, 20 years from now, the only people who will remember whether you worked late are your children. And so, if you think about it, so much of what we worry about, like, is my boss gonna like me? Are people gonna think I'm a good this or that? It's not gonna matter down the road, but whether I was a good ethical person, that's gonna matter a lot. We matter and our behavior matters, but it's not necessarily other people's opinions about whether my curtains were the right shade of blue on the windows.

Yeah, you're missing the point.

Yeah.

So, you said at the very beginning that the single biggest takeaway from this 86 year long study on adult development at Harvard is that a good life is made from good relationships. So let's focus on what makes for good relationships. And let's start with, what kind of relationships do you need need in order to have a good life?

Yeah. Okay. So there's a kind of bedrock relationship type that everybody needs, which is who has my back. So we asked our study members at one point, who could you call in the middle of the night if you were sick or scared? And most people could listen. You know, several people in their life, some people couldn't list anybody. And some of those people were even married, and they didn't list their spouse.

Wow.

So we think that everybody needs one person. In my world, we call it a secure attachment to another person, where you feel like, if I'm in trouble, that person would be there for me.

We've talked about it on this podcast as your 04:00 a.m.. Friend.

Yeah.

The person you can pick up the phone to at 04:00 in the morning, whether it's an emergency or you're just lonely and you need somebody to talk to.

Yeah.

Why does secure attachment matter? And what is it? How does it relate to happiness?

Secure attachment refers to this idea that we all bond when we're babies. When we're tiny, we bond to caregivers, and that if the bonding goes well, we end up believing that we are lovable and that there's somebody there to love us. And that when we believe those things, we grow up happy and we grow up brave enough to explore the world. Right. Because there's a home base we can come back to. So sometimes you'll see on a playground, you'll see a parent with a two year old, and the two year old toddles off, and then at some point they'll run back and they will grab the parent's leg. It's sometimes called refueling, where they remind you, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Home base. And then they'll toddle off again and then they'll run back for that kind of momentary refueling. We think that that's something we need all the way through life. So how do I take a risk in my life? You may have someone in your life, maybe it's your spouse. And if you start to take a risk, like starting a new podcast, you might run it by him and say, what do you think?

Do you think I could do this? And we need somebody to say, it's okay and I'm here, even if it doesn't go well, I've got your back, right.

I feel like that's the whole purpose of this podcast for the person listening. Yeah, that it is a refueling. Yeah, that it's a place you can come back to like a home base and hear somebody who really means it say, you got this. Yes, you can.

You can. Exactly.

Well, Doctor Waldinger, I mean, talking about relationships and connecting with people, I already have a dozen people that I'm going to share this conversation with. And so let's take a quick pause, hear a word from our amazing sponsors because they allow us to bring this to you at zero cost. And while you're listening to our sponsors, take a minute and share this with somebody that you love. Because as you're learning, relationships are what create a good life. And Doctor Waldinger and I will be waiting for you after a short break. Stay with us. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel. I'm so glad you are here. Thank you for sharing this conversation with the people that you love. I know it's going to make a huge difference. And we're learning incredible insights from the 86 year long Harvard adult development study. We're here with doctor Robert Waldinger who is breaking down the amazing insights from this research study and helping us live a good life. So Doctor Waldinger, one of the findings of the study is that your relationships not only create a good life, but they actually make you healthier, they make you live longer.

And so can you talk a little bit about how the connection that you feel with people in your life, or even warm connections with strangers helps you manage stress?

Yes. I mean, there are a bunch of ways it does that. One is it makes us feel we're not alone and feeling like we're not alone is vital. Feeling like someone will catch me if I fall feeling like we belong. It's one of the reasons why feeling part of a group matters. It's why being excluded from a group is so painful. We need to feel like we belong, to feel good about ourselves. So even the small interactions we have, like when you go into the coffee shop and you have a nice exchange with the barista who makes you your latte, that moment of connection where, yeah, how's your day going? And sometimes people will actually tell you how their day is. They'll really tell you, not just on automatic pilot. And that helps us feel like we're with someone else and we belong and we're seen by someone else.

Can you talk a little bit? Based on the research of why these small moments and these small conversations, even with a stranger throughout the week, really are an important part of living a good life.

What we know is that those conversations with strangers again help us feel connected, help us feel affirmed. They did an experiment in Chicago where there are a lot of commuters on the Chicago commuter rail system. And they assigned some people to do what they normally did on their commute, which is to look at their phones or read a book or whatever, listen to music. And the other people were assigned to talk to a stranger, and they asked people, how much do you think you're going to like this assignment? And the people who were told they had to talk to strangers thought they were not going to like it. When they completed their assignment, they were all asked, how do you feel now? The people who talked to strangers were way happier than the people who just sat and did what they normally did on their commute. And it seems that the connections we make are energizing much more often than not. Yes, sometimes we can get into a conversation we don't like, but more often than not, it's like, oh, it's nice. It's nice to say hello to you. It's nice to complain about the weather together, whatever it might be.

It just makes me feel like I belong.

This is something that I have always done. I always said it was because I grew up in the midwest. I just am always talking to people. I'm always saying hello to people. We're staying at a hotel and there was this big electrical conference there. And so we get into the elevator yesterday. It's probably 730 in the morning. It is full of. Just imagine a group of seven electrical contractors get that picture in your mind. They're all kind of standing there quiet. I'm like, hey, guys, what's up? First? Silence.

Who is this? Yeah.

And I'm like, how's the conference? And they're like, oh, you know, and then one guy starts to talk, and then all of a sudden, like, popcorn popping. Next thing you know is we're going down the 17 floors, we're chatting it up, and I'm recommending the almond croissant at the bakery and the cafe. And so I love that. And I realize that it's not even about being extroverted, because I'm really more of somebody. I'm realizing who's more amberverted. I'm extroverted at work, but then I'm literally, I never leave my house kind of thing. Yeah, but I am so energized by it.

Right. So how did you feel at the start of the elevator ride and then at the end. Can you compare 1000%?

I compare as I got out of my hotel room alone, and I'm checking my phone as I'm walking down the hallway, and then I'm turning right to walk down the other long hallway, and I'm still on my phone, and I'm thinking about my work day, and I'm trapped in my head. And then I walk over to the elevator, and then I hit the button, and I'm so not present that I step on the first elevator that dings, and it's going up, not down.

Yes.

So then I go up alone in the elevator for another seven floors. And then the first contractor walks in, and the second, I looked at him, and I said, good morning. And he smiled and said, good morning. I felt a little burst of energy. It was like I was immediately now in the moment and not on my phone. I was now present with another human being staying at the same hotel. The door shut, and as we start to descend, I turn. I'm like, were you in the elevator with me yesterday morning? And he kind of laughed, and he's like, I don't think so. And I'm like, well, you probably would have remembered it, because I was yapping with everybody in the elevator, but there was somebody in there. And then the doors open, and now we're talking, and so then somebody else gets in, and I say, good morning. And then the guy looks up and says, good morning. And then we stand in, and then the doors open again. And so as everybody then starts to get on, the energy in the elevator shifted. Nobody was on their phone.

Yeah.

And we didn't solve the world's problems, but even just getting off the elevator and then as I exited. Have a great day, everybody. And a couple people. Hey, you two kind of thing. I was present, I felt a little less alone. I felt a lift of life force, energy from other people. It shifted my mood. It changed the day.

And what you've developed is a habit of doing that. And what is worth pointing out is that it's a habit. We can develop that even though it's a little awkward at first. If you just keep doing it, it'll become second nature. But I had to develop the habit.

Yeah. And I think it's really important to note something, that this is really important, because you underestimate how big of a difference it makes in your life. And I'd like to offer one other example of how you can do this, because I know that for a lot of people, striking up a conversation or making small talk feels either scary or trivial, and it's not. And what I've noticed about making this a habit of creating what you and the research have found are, quote, warm connections. And these small social day to day interactions is that I would rather feel the way that I felt when I got off the elevator this morning at the hotel. Having just chatted and saying good morning to people in the elevator, I'd rather feel that tiny little buzz and lift in my mood than the way that I feel when I'm standing there lonely. Looking at my phone, I have realized that I have a choice about the experience in my day to day life that I can create for myself. And so another way to do this is you probably go to a coffee shop most weeks and simply complimenting somebody, either on their nails or the shirt they're wearing or how good the coffee looks.

And then after doing that three or four days in a row, saying, do you mind me asking what your first name is? I feel like I come in here every day. I see. I don't even, like. I'd like to just, you know, I melt. Then here's a pro tip. When you turn around after you say their name, write their name in your contacts, in the notes, under the entry for the coffee shop. And as you pull in tomorrow morning, if you're like me, you will forget that Evan is the dude that is at the coffee shop at the hotel I stay at all the time in Boston. I now know his name. He knows my order.

Yeah, yeah.

So when I walk up, I'm like, oh, it's Evan, right? Oh, I'm Melissa. It's great to see you again. That small thing, as crazy as it sounds, it makes me less lonely.

Absolutely, absolutely. And it makes the other person feel. Seen. Evan feels like you see him. You're not just, like, doing some transactional thing. It's like, I see you, and I'm glad we're here together.

And here's the other piece. If I could take it to an even more profound level, like every one of us wants to create more meaning in life and you want to feel like you have discovered this deeper sense of purpose. And I will go to my grave knowing that. I feel that my life is more meaningful and I am experiencing it at a deeper level simply because of this one habit of forcing myself to create these warm, simple connections and conversations with strangers as I go about my day. It's almost like being tethered to a mooring that keeps you present in life, that keeps you able to kind of ride the waves and locate a sense of energy and goodness as you go about your days, no matter where you are.

Yes. And one of the things I would add is that we can't always do it every time. So sometimes you're going to be in a bad mood or you're going to be really preoccupied with something and you're not going to be able to reach out to get outside of your own head and do just what you're describing. It's okay if we can't do it every time. Do it when you can.

Well, I find that sometimes those small things take less energy than trying to refuel with a deeper conversation from somebody else.

Yeah.

Can you talk a little bit about what the study says about the importance of romantic relationships to your happiness and health and to living a good life?

Yes. So, actually, I was talking about this to a group of people, and one woman raised her hand and said, well, given all you've said, if I don't have a partner, should I just walk in front of a bus now? And the answer is, absolutely not, you don't need a romantic partner. That romance is great, sex is great, intimacy is great, and intimacy can be with all kinds of people. Right? So it may be that you don't have a romantic partner right now in your life. That doesn't mean you never will. But if you don't have one now, there are ways to be intimate with close friends, with other family members. And so what we're finding is that these benefits of relationship don't require a marriage license. They don't even require living in the same place with somebody, that you can have people in your life, maybe just one or two, who are your close friends, who you share your life with, and that there's no special arrangement you need to have with them. Now, that said, what we do find in the research is that living with somebody in an intimate partnership actually keeps you healthier longer and helps you live longer.

But there's no mystery about it. It's because it's somebody to remind you to take your medication when you're older. It's somebody to remind you to get off the couch. It's somebody to drag you out to a gathering when you're kind of stuck watching Netflix.

You make it sound so romantic.

Well, I know, I know it's not so romantic, but it is really just the day to day that other people make us better by keeping us on track. It's somebody to get up for. It's somebody to get dressed for. That's one of the reasons we find that many times when one partner dies, the other partner doesn't live that long afterwards when we're very old, because there's a way that living with another person helps us stay in the world and take care of ourselves.

Is that kind of the same reason why pets are so good for your health?

Oh, yeah, pets are great. First of all, they get us up, they get us to walk. But also pets love us, especially dogs. Dogs are particularly emotionally attuned to their masters. Pets provide comfort in a way that, again, literally lowers the fight or flight response. We can measure it when we're petting a dog. The body calms down.

I want to go back to something that you said. You mentioned something about even just having a friend or two that you have a much deeper or an intimate connection with. Do you have two or three examples that might get somebody's mind thinking about things that they could plan or do or ways they could look at their friendships to amplify them?

I do. Our lives are so busy and we're pulled in so many different directions. And what we find is that often we want to see people, but we don't. So one of the things you can do is set up a regular contact with somebody. So let's say maybe there are just one or two or five people who you say, I got to have these people in my life regularly. Make it happen. Ill give you an example. My co author for this book we wrote, the good Life, is Mark Schultz. Hes been my collaborator for 30 plus years, but hes also my friend. So every Friday at noon we get on the phone. He lives in Philly. Hes not around Boston. So I might see him once a year in person. But for 30 plus years, weve had a phone call every Friday at noon. And, yeah, we do talk about research and we talk about our writing together, but we talk about our kids and our marriages, and we talk about everything. Now one of us has to cancel if we're not going to meet Friday at noon. That means that it's going to happen by default, and that means it happens much more often than not.

It's rare that we cancel a time. What if you had a friend like that who you said, once a month we're going out to dinner. So what I'm saying is try making one thing regular in your life with a friend or a sibling or somebody who you just want to say, I don't want to lose this connection.

I want to tease that out because I think this is something that you could listen to and kind of nod along and be like, uh huh, uh huh, uh huh. And so I want to make sure that you really understand what we're saying here, because over and over and over again, living a good life is about the things that are right in front of you that you're not seeing.

Yeah.

And everybody's busy. And if this matters to you, what he's recommending is that you schedule it as a reoccurring appointment. It is already set up. The babysitter is locked in, or your friend is on board. And so you've already done the hard part of moving from thinking about it to doing it. And the appointment itself is what keeps you connected. Like, if you have it in the calendar, it's more likely to happen. And there's something that I did that really helped me tremendously, which is I have a habit every morning where I send a text to a friend or a family member, just saying I was just thinking about you or sending a photo or whatever else. And if I really do want to get together, I say, I would love to see you. Are you around next Thursday or. I saw this photo come up on facebook. I was thinking about you. And we underestimate how much it means to somebody else. And making it a habit to do that first thing in the morning, every morning has kind of fanned the embers of old relationships, of people that are still friends. I just never see them.

People that I went to college with, high school with, people that I used to work with. Many more people in your life than you realize. And these small habits actually help them contribute to creating a good life.

Absolutely. Mel, you are the poster child for what we call in the book social fitness. These small actions like physical fitness, like something you do every day to keep yourself socially fit. And it can be small things like a text it could be somebody with a long commute, like you say. Well, I can't add anything to my time. Well, if you have a hands free phone in your car, use your commute time to talk to somebody instead of listening to music or listening to the news, reach out to somebody. There are all kinds of ways you can add to your life without having to add so much time that you are more stressed.

Did the study give you any guidance on what makes for a good friendship?

Yes, several things. One is what we call authenticity. And all that means is I feel I can be myself with this person. Like, I don't have to put on any kind of act. I don't have to hide big parts of who I am with this person. That that sense of just being able to show up as yourself means a huge amount in terms of the comfort with which you can be together. The other thing that makes a good relationship is curiosity. So if you think about it, especially with long relationships, we think, well, I know this person. I know what they're going to say. I know how they're going to react. Bringing curiosity, even to longstanding relationships can be so good. Like one of my meditation teachers actually taught me this. First he said, your job, when you go sit down on your cushion now for the 1000th time as you meditate, is to ask yourself, what's here that I have never noticed before? So what if you're sitting across from your friend at the coffee shop and you ask yourself, what's here that I've never noticed before? And just bring curiosity even to the relationships that you think are routine, mundane, you know, like the back of your hand.

You know, what's interesting that I just thought about is that if you think about your own life and you go back to, like half the age that you are looking backwards, you realize how much you've grown, how much you've changed, how different of a person you are? And yet we don't give that same perspective to the people in our life. Like your mom has gone through the exact same amount of growth, even though the habits on the outside look the same. Your partner is a totally different human being. Yes. Even though they look the same to you. Your friends have had so many things happen in their life that have changed who they are and what they care about, and yet you still show up and talk about the same old sports team and how are the kids, and there's something so much deeper going on.

Yes. To notice how somebody has changed can make someone feel so seen and understood.

Do you have a good question? Like, how would you advise us if you're sitting here listening to this and you're considering everything and you're thinking about the just treasure that is right in front of your face with the people that are already in your life? How do you lean in without sounding like some weird cheeseball that's just listened to a podcast episode and now you're like, so, you know, have you thought about how much you've changed in the last half decade? I'm curious, like, what's a way to, like, broach this with somebody?

Yeah. Well, one thing we could do is notice change. Like, to say, you know, you're doing that differently than you used to. Tell me about that. Or, you know, I've noticed this. Is that right? Do you think that this is more important to you than it used to be, or, you know, just to notice and ask, have I got that right?

I can think about a time when my brother in law turned to me and he said, you know, you're really different than you used to be. And I just wanted to acknowledge just how much work you've done. And I remember feeling very touched by that. And so I think that's a wonderful suggestion to say to somebody, I've noticed that you're a lot calmer or that you seem happier or that something's off. Like, you don't seem like yourself.

Yeah. Or that you're spending more time on this. You're spending less time on that. Or you seem less worried about this because partly it's saying, I notice you. I don't just take you for granted. I think about you and how you are. I love that.

I'm stealing that. I love that.

Take it.

I am. I'm grabbing all this and I'm going to run back into my life. What if the person listening to this is really introverted and the idea of these conversations just out and about in your life make their skin crawl and they're like, I don't want a lot.

Of people in my life that is perfectly fine, that many people are introverted. We're all somewhere on that spectrum between introversion and extroversion. And there's no normal, there's no better or worse that introverts are just great and just fine as they are. Then the question is, how many people do I need in my life? And for me, if I'm an introvert, having a lot of people in my life would be stressful. It would be one of those stressors in my life. So instead, focus on the one or two people who you want to invest in and who help you feel good in your life. Don't worry about the fact that there are other people out there who are party animals and getting their energy from lots of people.

Awesome. What does the study say about raising kids? What's important to focus on?

Wow. Probably the most important thing about raising kids is providing them with stability and love. So one of the things we know from all the child development research that's been done, I mean, thousands of studies, billions of dollars in child development, it all boils down to what one scientist said. He said every child needs a stable relationship with one adult who's crazy about them. And so if not crazy, who just loves them? Who just loves them. And that doesn't mean affirms everything they do. It doesn't mean praise everything. It means you just love them. They know they can count on you. So it's providing stability, and that can be very hard for some of us, for some families. And so even through divorce, for example, how do we divorce in a way that provides the most stability for the kids?

I don't know.

How do you? Well, you fight as little as you can. You don't make war with your partner if you possibly can help it. But you let the kids know we're both here for you. We both still love you, and you've got both of us. And that's not going to change even though we're not going to be together anymore. That's a huge message to give to kids. Right.

A lot of what you're talking about when it comes to living a good life, it's about the relationships that you cultivate, and it's about the inner life and the way that your life feels.

Yeah.

How do you teach kids those kind of emotional skills?

Yeah, we really can teach it. One of the things they know, for example, about family dinners is they're hugely important for teaching emotional skills. Kids listen to what we say, but what they really do is they watch what we do and we model stuff all the time. So at a family dinner or other places, too, are we respectful of each other? Do we really listen to each other or do we interrupt? Right. We used to play the interrupting game with our kids where everybody would start out with a certain number of M and Ms, and if you interrupted, you had to put one m and m into the center pile and then you could earn it back if you didn't interrupt for while at dinner. So we teach not interrupting, we teach listening, we teach respect for somebody's views, rather than jumping in and saying that's wrong? Or how can you believe that? We teach curiosity. We teach turn taking. We teach mutuality. So one of the things that we know in a good relationship is that one person doesn't occupy all the air time. Well, where do kids learn that? First, they learn it at home.

And so how do you have discussions where you share the airtime rather than one person taking it all?

Are there any habits that kind of emerged from the study that help you either learn mutuality or learn how to create good relationships in your life? Anything that rises to the top that you wish they would do more of?

Yes, the things we've been saying. So one habit is being curious about how they're changing right in front of you and then going with the flow. So if someone is changing, not opposing that, think of all the pain we cause each other by saying, no, no, you can't grow up to be an engineer. You have to be a doctor, or you can't grow up to be a woodworker. You have to be a lawyer. However, we decide someone else has to live their life. That is a recipe for pain and suffering in families, because each of us is who we are. Each of us is this unfolding being who has their own likes and dislikes, their own talents. And so if I think, oh, my child has to be like me, that's a recipe for disaster. So what if we could really be curious about who is this being that I've brought into the world? And how can I help this person express who they are in the world? That's a big factor in which families thrive.

When you look at couples and this innate desire that we have to either change or control them.

Yeah.

And you just mentioned that one of the amazing things that you can do for someone is to step aside and not interrupt the flow of them changing. I was just curious, what do you think the balance is between the nudging? Get off the couch. We got to take a walk. You've been sitting at your desk all day and stepping in and trying to control somebody.

I'm going to quote a famous Zen teacher who told his monks, you're perfect just as you are, and you could use a little improvement. So it's this kind of paradox that, yes, we want to accept each other and we want to help each other be better. Right? So it is a little of both. Like, we don't want to just accept kids and let them do whatever they want because they'll be heathens. They won't learn to function in the world.

They're also not adults yet they're not.

Adults, yet they're not able to choose for themselves. We can't say to the toddler, sure, go out and play in the street if you want to. No, and you're right. We do want to say to our partner, come take a walk with me. We've spent enough time on the couch. The balance is trying to let someone be who they are, but to nudge them in the ways that we can, to be healthier, to do things that we think will help them be happier. So it's always walking a fine line.

Is there any strategy based on the research that works better than others? Because I think, especially as you age and you see somebody's health decline and you want them to take better care of themselves. Did anything emerge from this study that's like, obviously pressuring isn't going to work, but is there something that you can do in terms of how you show up that makes it more likely or triggers intrinsic motivation for somebody else to want to do that work, to improve themselves?

Yeah. First of all, let people learn from life. Don't shield them from the consequences of what they choose. If somebody says, well, I don't really want to get a job, okay, well, so how are you going to pay your rent? There are lots of things we can do to help people meet the challenges of life by not shielding them from the challenges of life that matters. This often happens in the realm of addiction with loved ones, that we have to let people deal with the pain of losing a job, of losing a partner, because they're not present, because they're addicted to some substance, that we don't try to run in and make it all better. We let people, when we can, face the real world consequences of the choices they make and hopefully learn from them, because that's how we all learn.

Beautiful. In chapter five, there was this really interesting statistic about the fact that we spend half the time thinking about something else rather than being in the present moment.

Yes.

Can you talk a little bit about the importance of your attention?

Yes. So paying attention to just what's here now is something we don't normally do. Our minds carry us off into thinking about the future or thinking about the past. And in some ways, that's helpful. Like, to be able to anticipate the future is a good thing. It's one of the reasons why we survive so well. And thinking about the past lets us learn from the past. So all that's good. But what we know is it doesn't make us as happy as being in the present as me paying attention right now to what it's like sitting here talking to you, what the chair feels like under me, what the air feels like on my skin, that all of that, when I can let myself be present for it, actually makes me feel more alive. So the practice of coming back into the present, that's part of what flow is. Flow is just being present for what is. You don't have to sit on a meditation cushion to do this. You can take a walk in nature, and you get outside of your thoughts about the past and present. You just look at, oh, my gosh, that tree is so beautiful.

And you're just right there in the moment, or you're right there with your friend. And so what we find when we study this is that when we are in the present moment, our mood is happier than when we're thinking about the past or thinking about the future.

Can you help me and the listener just drop into the present? Can you show us how accessible it is?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Just sit here for a moment. Sit still. Listen to my voice. Maybe close your eyes if it's comfortable. And now just feel your heartbeat. Wherever you feel it. Just feel that your heart is beating all the time. Most of the time, we're not aware of it, but it's right there supporting us. And now take a moment to appreciate your breath going in and out. And take a moment to appreciate any sounds that are reaching your ears. That's it. That's the present moment. And so, actually, you can do that anywhere. You can do it in a busy waiting room, waiting for a doctor's appointment. You can do it sitting at a red light. Don't close your eyes with the red light in traffic, but you can look at that red light and notice, wow, I'm breathing. My heart's beating. And dropping into the present moment just allows us to take a break from the swirl of automatic pilot of our automatic thoughts.

How has this study impacted your life?

Oh, a lot. At a certain point, I realized, okay, I'm a Harvard professor. I could work twenty four seven. I mean, I could be writing papers, editing, applying for grant money, and especially once my kids left home and they weren't there to pull me away and say, dad, let's do this or drive me here. And I realized that I could work all the time and not have any friends. And then I was looking at my own study and saying, wait a minute. Friendships are kind of important.

They're everything.

What I've started doing is the stuff that I just recommended to all of you. Which is I started texting my friends, I started making dinner dates. Not just letting my wife make the dinner dates for our couple, right. Because she's the social director, has been for years. I started saying to my friends, let's go take a walk. Let's go meet for coffee or a beer. What I made myself do was pay more attention to my relationships and less attention to my work. Now, we could say I'm lucky, I'm older, I'm more senior in my career. I can do that. But what I would say is that even when we're younger and we're under all those pressures of making a living and making a career and supporting my family, that we can still make sure we keep in as our North Star connections, including at work. Because you can do this at work, you can make more friends at work so that there are people you care more about showing up for each day.

Well, between the age of 20 and 60, the people you work with are who you spend most of your time with day to day. A huge part of living a good life.

Exactly.

So I love to always end by having you speak directly to the person who's listening. So if you could just talk to the person listening about all the things that you've learned about living a good life, what would you want them to know?

I would say invest in the people who you care about and invest in the things that you care about. And if you keep your eye on those things, those are the most likely to make you feel like your life is good. And then when you're in doubt about what to do, make kindness your default setting. So if you're in doubt, should I do this or should I do that? Think to yourself, well, what would be the kinder thing to do and do that?

Doctor Robert Waldinger. Thank you so much for being here with us. I have been so looking forward to this. You did not disappoint. I have a million people I want to text now.

Yeah.

And I also am really excited about the curiosity piece and understanding that everybody around me has changed so much and leaning into it and noticing it is going to help me live a good life. And to you. I want to thank you for spending time with us today. And in case nobody else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you. I believe in you and I believe in your ability to take everything that you learned today. And I hope you do. I hope you take what you learned and you put it into action in your day to day life. Because if you do, you will look back when your life is near its end and you will be able to say, I lived a good life. Alrighty, I'll talk to you in a few days. Is this thing on?

Okay, good.

Because instead of bloopers, I'm going to use this time to tell you about a free two part training that I just created for you. It's called make it happen. It is designed to help you push through the fear and take, take action. It's my gift to you. You know, I've been so moved by your support of this podcast that I am constantly trying to figure out ways that I can take it to the next level and empower you to take the risks and make the changes that will make your life better. You mean the world to me, and I want to prove it to you. I want to prove it to you by giving you more structured support as a thank you for supporting the Mel Robbins podcast. Which brings me to this awesome gift. It's a free two part video training called make it happen. In it, I'm going to teach you how to push through fear and take consistent, confident action. It's zero cost to you. Just go to melrobbins.com makeithappen and you can sign up for free. The link is also in the show notes. It's a two hour, all new video training and the curriculum is backed by science and designed to support you in taking confident, consistent action in your life.

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