Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships. I am Jade Warshaw. I am joined by Dr. John deloney, and we are taking your calls. Yes, our powers combined are taking your calls for the next 3 hours. The number is triple 8825-5225 hit us up. We will do our best to give you our take on advice for your situation. Some say the advice is worth what you pay for it. So give us a call. We're going to go straight to the phone lines where we've got Hannah in salt Lake city. What's going on, Hannah?

Hi there. Thank you so much for taking my call. It's such an honor to be here and talk to you.

How can we help?

Oh, thanks. Okay, so, to preface my question, which is a little backstory, my dad recently passed away, and he left me and my. Thank you. He left me and my three siblings his house. We love this house. It's our childhood home, and it is in a really great area of the valley. So ideally, we'd love to keep it in the family by having one of me or my siblings move in or by keeping it as a rental. The only caveat is there's still a $250,000 mortgage on the property. So my question for you guys, is there any way for us siblings to successfully co own the property, or are we just kind of romanticizing this idea of having a rental and keeping our childhood home? Just what would you do if you were in my shoes?

I think it is a little romanticized to think that you can all three own this property and kind of, like, be twins on it, and everybody's ready to sell it at the same time, and everybody's happy with the way it's being managed and who's living there and what they're paying? Ideally, it would fall to one sibling, and you guys would just say, hey, this person is going to take this. We're either going to sell it right now and we're going to split it, or one person is going to kind of take this on, and it's their property, they're paying the mortgage, and from here on out, it's theirs.

My bigger concern is that you've got a $250,000 mortgage, but there's probably some accrued equity in that house, right? What have you accrued in it?

Yeah, absolutely. So it's probably just because of the area. It's probably worth six and a half.

So I've never seen this situation, and I'm sure it exists. So this is just my experience. I've never seen this situation where there isn't one of the siblings, wife, husband or girlfriend, who's saying, hey, this $200,000 would change our life. Let's sell. And so sometimes the siblings are all lockstock. It's one of their kids gets in trouble and they suddenly need $50,000. Or that one brother that always left his underwear out, his kids are going to leave their underwear out all over this house. Right. And it just becomes a management way. And so, yeah, you end up causing more internal family challenge. As Jade said, if one person said, I'll take ownership of this, I'm going to manage it, I'll pay the whatever. And if y'all want to rent the house, or if you want to airbnb it, I won't charge you, but your family will just have to say, we're going to be there for this week, this particular year. Maybe that would work.

Maybe there's still a piece of it that when they sell, people are going to want their cut of equity was right. How many siblings is it?

So it's me and my three other siblings.

Four of you?

Yeah, there's four of us.

Sorry, I'm just trying to get my head around the numbers, essentially, right now, with the equity there after, before fees and stuff, you'd each have $100,000 in equity.

Right.

Okay. What were you saying?

Yeah, no, I was just saying, I know one of my siblings would just want out. I don't think that they would want to manage it. So it'd be like, up to the three of us, but again, we'd have to buy her out somehow. I know it sounds messy. I was just wondering if I'm kind of deep in the grief and the.

Emotion, and that's the bigger picture. How long ago did your dad pass?

It's been about four months. Okay.

My rule of thumb is six months to a year. Do nothing.

Okay.

So continue to pay this bill. And as you said, you all are just now slowly starting to come out of the fog, right?

Right.

And some of you all will come out in different stages. And so maybe say, hey, brothers and sisters, we're going to put a date on the calendar for seven months after dad passed. And we're either going to get together in person, if possible, or we're all going to have a Zoom call and we're going to talk about, a, how everybody's doing, and then b, next steps, and if there's. Usually in this situation, there's one sibling, that is to the death, we will never sell this house.

Right.

And then it's like, cool. Then you get to buy it, and there's one or two that are like, wishy washy. I'll kind of go along. And then there's one that's like, no, I want my money right now. And because that's usually. Is that the dynamic in your house?

Dude, you got it.

That's the exact dynamic.

It just turns into, oh, you don't care about dad. You just are throwing away our whole life all the way to, hey, dad left me this money. I want my money. And so a way to just do away with all that is that one person who's just diehard can buy it from everybody and will sell it, and we'll get a mortgage, and you can take it over, or we're going to get a realtor, and we're going to split it, and we're going to sell it, and it's going to be painful, and we're going to have to vote on it. Is there an executor to the will that gets the final call?

Yeah, my brother is the. I don't know if it's an executor. I'm not 100%, but I know my brother. He's the one that's kind of in charge of my dad's financial end of things.

So he's the one that will actually make the mortgage payment for the next three months while you all are waiting?

Yeah.

Okay.

And my dad has money. There's still money in the bank, so luckily the mortgage is still coming out of there. But, yeah, he's been in charge of.

Does he want to keep it?

Yes. And he's very much like, he has a rental and he has a primary residence, and then he used a heloc to buy his residence now. And so I think that's kind of his plan with this next property is to HELOC. And then obviously, I am a fan of the Ramsay Koolaid, so I'm not 100% with that.

Well, he's a grown, grown up. He gets to make his own financial decisions. What you get to decide is whether you're going to participate or not.

Right.

And I think the best thing for your relationship with your family moving forward is to not have a business relationship on top of the sibling relationship.

Right.

And if he's going to keep it as a rental, I love the idea of, I've got some friends that have properties overseas, that got properties in lake houses. Their brothers and sisters just put on the calendar when we want to go. That's awesome. That's great. And then it's rented out the other parts of the year, so you still get to hang on to it a little bit here and there. I just think that wound is so fresh. And then after six months, after a year, it just becomes more and more just a house. Right? It just becomes just a house. And right now, it feels like I'm hanging on to dad. We're really not. But that's just hard to do right now. It's so fresh. Sorry you lost your old man, dude.

Thank you. Yeah, that's life.

Great question.

Thank you so much.

You bet.

That's tough, man. I think it's hard enough when you try to do business with family members, but then when you add a layer of grief to it, it's a disaster. I feel like waiting to happen.

That's why that rule that six month to a year, if you can avoid doing anything, sometimes somebody passes away on a Friday and you got to go work on Monday, right? Pay bills. But if you can avoid selling something, moving away immediately, jumping into a new relationship, if you can avoid and just sit with your grief for six months to a year, the fog begins to lift. Your new priorities begin to come into clarity, and it just gives you some direction on what's next.

Yeah, that's really, really good. Oh, I feel bad for them, but I'm happy that a good man leaves an inheritance. So I'm glad that he left an inheritance and in a way that it's being paid for out of his money until they decide what they want to do with the asset. This is the Ramsay show.

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Right now you're listening to the Ramsay show. I'm Jade Warshaw. Next to me is Dr. John Deloney. We're taking your calls. It's your life, your money. This show exists honestly solely for you, so give us a call. The number is triple 8825-5225 whatever's going on, we'll help you sort it out. Your neighborly question of the day is brought to you by neighborly, your hub for home services. No more scrolling through pages of Internet results. Neighborly is the one place you'll find a variety of home service professionals you can rely on to do the job right or neighborly will make it right. That's the neighborly done right. Promise. Learn more@neighborly.com Slash Ramsey Today's question comes.

From Mason in Washington. Mason writes, when I started college, my parents took out a parent plus loan, which I verbally agreed to help pay back. Now that the loan repayments have started, my parents said they are only going to help for one year. The loan is now over $71,000 and the payments are $800 a month. My wife and I have another loan for 60,000, which we are starting to pay off, but we do not have money to pay the loan under my parents name. I'm literally shaking while I'm typing this email. Please help. All right, Jade, I'll go first and then you can tell me if I'm off base here. So mom and dad Mason wanted to go to a school that the family couldn't afford. And so Mason took out all of the student loans he could under his own name. And then the government said, hey, that's the most you can take out. If you have to go to this school, if you just are out of your mind and unwilling to stop at any of the breaks we're putting on for you, your parents can also take out money. And then Mason turned around and told his parents, hey, I'm going to help you pay this off.

And they said, okay. So they took out this loan. They shook hands or verbally agreed, and then the repayment started. There's no plan. There's no map. There was no, hey, we're going to do it at this rate over this period of time. So mom and dad put down a map and said, we're going to help you for one year, then you're going to take over repayments. And now they've created a world where they can't live. It's $131,000 in what looks to be undergraduate loans. And so my two thoughts on this are, number one, maybe mom and dad put down plan one because there was no plan. And maybe sitting down with your mom and dad and saying, look, I get it. I did say I was going to help pay this back. I don't have 800 extra dollars a month to do this, so it's going to have to go in order of what I'm able to do.

Right.

That's number one. Number two, Mason, you said you'd pay it back, so you got to pay it back. It. This is the agreement you made. Now I'll help you. When you were 18, probably meant something different than to you, than it did to your parents.

I mean, the thing with debt is, in this case, he's feeling like, man, my parents, they changed the terms. It was supposed to be them helping for life, and now they've decided they're only helping for one year.

Well, there were no terms. And now you're, like, just going to put terms on this? Yes, it's a $70,000 transaction.

But the bigger discussion here, and I hope what you learned from this, Mason, is debt always changes. The terms. Like, the terms always change whether you took out a student loan and you had the right job to be able to make the payments, and then the terms changed when you lost your job, and now you can't make the payment. When it comes to debt, there's always something that has the ability to change the terms and make it unaffordable or inconvenient. And that's why I hate debt. I hope that you learned a lesson from this, which is, if you can't afford it, don't sign for it. And don't let anyone else sign for it, either. If I'm you, and I have been you, by the way, I've been in a situation where there are parent plus loans, and we just paid them back. We just paid them back because think about the other option, right? The other option is I don't pay it or I don't try to make inroads to pay it, and I can continue to just erode this relationship with my parents, because my guess is if they've tried to bow out of this, it's because also, they can't afford it.

And so there's really no good scenario that allows you to not pay this bill and still have some form of intact relationship with your parents. I just can't see a road where you just go, okay, fine. Well, I'm not paying it either, because it's in their name, and so it's going to erode their credit and their good name, so you got to pay it. At the end of the day, if you just kind of roll it back to its simplest form, you needed money to do something that you wanted to do, and you let somebody sign for it. But at the end of the day, all the money still went to you like it still went for you, and so in that way, I'd be like, man, just pay it.

And sometimes we get this call parent. And parents say, hey, we're going to take this from you. We're doing this. And then they change the terms. Two years later, I'll tell Mason, hey, man, they told you this was going to be theirs, but here we are. I think it's also important to note, I don't know a relationship in the world ever that is not changed by, you owe me money. Here's a good example. The other day, we were getting together for ball of bands. We ordered some pizzas, and I told the guy, hey, pick up the pizzas. I'm going to be in a meeting and I'll venmo you. I haven't venmoed him the money yet. He texted me last night for something totally unrelated.

And you felt.

And I felt it.

Yeah.

Like, I owe that dude money.

Even though it's like $18.

It's pizza, right? And it's not like I'm in debt to him. But whether you were that guy who had a friend who was always like, hey, you owe me 428 for wendy's, right? Or you owe your parents $70,000. Debt always causes cancer in a relationship. Period. End of story. The bank tells you what to do. The car finance companies tell you what to do with your life. Your father tells you what to do with your life, even though you have your own new family because of owing them money because of dad.

And let's just put this in terms that anybody will be able to understand, because this is what's just really rich about this situation. You took out the student loans so that you could have the dream job or that dream career that you thought for sure would be enough to be able to make the student loan payments. And I quote, I'm literally shaking while I'm typing this. And I just want anybody listening who's thinking about taking out student loans because they think, oh, I'm going to land that career. Like, I'm definitely going to pass the bar, and I'm going to pass the LSAT, and I'm going to be able to do this job and make so much money, it's going to RoI. No time. We see it every single day. This guy's like, I don't know what to do. I have a $70,000 student loan. I can't make the payment. My wife has a $60,000 student loan. We can't live like this. And so I want you to hear real people saying real things. About how loans and how debt works. It always sounds like a good idea on the front end and it always comes back to bite you in the butt on the back end.

So here you have. Wish we had. I wish I had a better diagnosis. But you're in debt. You got to pay it. That's it. All right, let's go to Trevor, who's in grand rapids, Michigan. What's going on, Trevor? Let's make it quick. I only have a couple of minutes. I'm sorry about that.

No problem. Hello. Quickly then. I started a new job early in September of last of 2023. I made in about four months from September. From the middle of September to the middle of January, I made, including a bonus, about $42,000.

42,000.

Okay. Before taxes, about 30k afterwards.

Okay.

My question right now is I have an opportunity in my hometown, which is a couple of hours from Grand Rapids, to purchase a house for. The house is $41,000.

$41,000?

Yes. It's a two bedroom, one half bath with hardwood floors and a partial basement.

Okay.

My stress here is that I have $6,000 still saved that I could use towards a down payment and have about another six for safety and payments and everything.

Wait, why are you only working a seasonal job? Why aren't you working another job right now?

I am.

Okay.

But it's a lot less the payments in my hometown, it's very rural, so income is a lot less than my seasonal job.

What would you make per month on the other months?

I'm sorry, what was the question?

What would you make on the other months that you get just other work besides the seasonal job?

It's about $1,000 a month.

Okay. Hey, I'm going to hold you over. Tell me a little bit more. I'm going to hold you over until the next segment because I want to hear more from this. So the house is $42,000. I'm sorry? The house is $41,000. In the last four months you've made 42,000. But out of that you've only saved 6000 for a down payment.

I used a large portion of it to pay off other debts.

Okay. All right. Hang on the line. I'm going to bring you back for the next segment so we can hear a little bit more about this situation. This is the Ramsey show.

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This is the Ramsay show. Thanks for listening. I'm Jade Warshaw. Next to me is Dr. John Deloney. So if you want to speak to us about what's going on in your life, your marriage, your finances, your job, your relationships, give us a call. The number is triple 825-5225 and we will chop it up with you. Before this segment, we had a guy on the line. His name was Trevor. He was talking to us about his situation. He's in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and he is thinking about buying a house for $41,000. And he's telling us about the fact that he has a seasonal job at this point, over the last four months or so, he's brought in $42,000. It sounds like he's used that money to clear some debt, and he wants to know if it's a good idea for him to purchase this property. Trevor, are you still there?

Yes, ma'am.

Awesome. So did I get that right?

Yes, pretty much.

Okay, so tell me a little bit more. You've got the seasonal job. You're bringing in around $10,000 a month for this job. And then on the off season, you have another job. That makes you, how much per month?

About 1000.

About 1000. So that's a big difference. And there's no way that you can think of that that number would go up, right, because of the ruralness of where you live. And to my point, I'm asking, is there something online that you can do that doesn't necessarily limit you to your location where you can make normal money?

I hadn't thought of that before, but it's definitely something I probably should look into. So thank you for pointing that out.

And by the way. Maybe I'm wrong. I live in a really rural area.

Yes, sir.

And whether it's mowing or picking up sticks or my 14 year old shovels horse chacha out of the barn all summer long and then spreads it over the fields for our neighbor, I feel like there's always work to be done out in rural areas. It's not fun work, and it can be miserable. But there's always work, right?

Absolutely.

So is it a possibility that from just before it gets light outside to just before the sun, just after the sun goes down, you can get out there and find $1,500 worth of work a month?

Yeah, I'm sure I could, and I probably will.

Yeah.

I just got home a little bit ago.

I think it's important. I don't think that you can go seven months out of the year and only make $1,000 a month.

Yeah, that's pretty tough.

So that's thing one. Let's find out more about this house situation. So you let me know. And by the way, let me clarify. It's five months out of the year. Right. That you're doing this seasonal job. So over the last five months, you've made somewhere around 8000, $8,500 a month. You told me that you were putting that towards debt. What kind of debt was it?

It was car loan and student loans.

Did you pay it off completely?

There's about $2,000 left on my student loans.

Okay. And that's the only debt you have to your name?

Yes.

Cool. Okay, so here's the framework that I would use to decide if it's time for me to buy a house.

Just quick correction.

I only worked four months. The season starts in March and ends in January. And there's, like, a one year. You're supposed to work a one year break sometime in there.

You said it starts in March and ends in January. I thought you told me you worked from September into January.

Yeah, that's when I got the job. It was a brand new job, so I started near the middle of the season. So it's about a nine month work season with about, like, you're supposed to take, like, a month off to relax because you're out doing this. I'm a sailor. So you're out there for about four months at a time? Four to five months at a time.

And are you going to reliably make about $8,500 a month?

Yeah.

For those nine months?

Yeah.

Okay. Got it. Okay. So now I've got it back to the framework. The framework that I would use for you. And honestly, anybody who called in here to decide if it's time to buy a house is, number one, I want to be completely debt free. That's the number one caveat. You've got to be debt free. And number two, you need to have. In your case, I'd have six months of expenses saved because you do seasonal work, because of the nature of where you live. I just want to make sure it's ironclad if there's an emergency. And then from there on, in this case, were you planning to finance this house or try to find a way to buy it out? Right. What was your plan?

I was planning on financing.

Okay. So at that point, then it's like, okay, I'm going to try to put up to 20% down and do a down payment. So I've got to save up money for that. And then if you're financing it, you're doing a 15 year fixed rate mortgage like everybody else, where the payment is no more than 25% of your take home. And that's where it's at. Now, if I can be completely honest in your situation, with the money that you're making and with the money that you have the potential to make, if this is what real estate costs, I'm trying to pay for this bad boy in cash. $41,000.

It is very discounted.

Why?

For my area.

Why is it so discounted?

Currently, my best bet is it is a foreclosure. So you're paying off the mortgage, and then you have the house, and then.

It needs a bunch of work.

No, from what I saw.

No, the key there is from what you saw.

Interesting. Just make sure you're doing some research on this property.

You can get into a $40,000 house that needs new foundation and floor and walls and roof, and that $40,000 house suddenly costs $200,000, and you're in a mess.

I mean, a good way to test. I mean, obviously you can get a foreclosure for a lot less expensive, but I'm still wanting to know what real estate in that area costs, because I'm like, is there water damage? Is there mold? How long has it been sitting empty? There's a lot of questions that I would have if I were the buyer of this property.

Yes, ma'am. That house should probably go for anywhere between $100 to $80,000.

Okay. Yeah. My thoughts remain the same. Once you pay off this 2000 of debt that you have remaining, stack up that six months of expenses as quickly as possible. And then you're saving up that down payment as much as you possibly can. I mean, we always say 5% to 20%, but in this case, it's such an inexpensive property. Get as much as you possibly can and do it like that. And honestly, if it goes off the market, it goes off the market. Don't get it. If those areas are not in place. Don't skip the steps and try to get this house. I wouldn't.

Yeah, because it's not a deal. Then it's not a deal. And I know you often can't do this, or usually can't do this with foreclosures. But if there's any way you can take somebody who knows what they're doing, a construction friend or an inspector, and even take a lap around the house and look under the house and look through the windows just to see what you're biting off, man, $40,000 in a neighborhood that normally goes for 100 to 125. The bank's just not going to concede $60,000, right? That tells me that there may be some work that needs to be done in there. And, man, I'd hate for you to have a $40,000 house mortgage, even though it's basically nothing. But now you've got to do a bunch of stuff to even make it livable. And now you got a problem.

Yeah. I always tell people that if you're trying to buy a house, there's just a lot of cost that goes into it that we don't always talk about. And you do yourself a big favor, a, by doing your research on the front end before you even make an offer. But then when you do make an offer, yeah, money has to be in place. Number one, you do have to have three to six months of expenses, because homeownership is expensive. And then I tell people to go in with a stacked deck. And it's just an acronym. The D is for down payment, because that's a lot of money. Five to 20%. That's a lot of cash to have on hand. And then understand that if you had a contingent to sell, you also have to put down earnest money. And if your down payment and all that money is contingent on the sale of your other house, that earnest money has to, a lot of times, go first. So even though it becomes part of your down payment, you have to have that money on hand when you make the offer. And then c, of course, you've got closing costs that are in there.

And then for the k, you've got to keep in mind costs of appraisal and costs of moving. Right? You got to get a truck, and you've got to buy boxes and bubble paper and all these things that really jack up the price more and more. And know, I feel like it's worth talking about, John, that buying a house is already expensive because of the way the world is right now. But don't get caught slipping, because when Sam and I bought our first house, I was shook. I was like, I didn't know about all this. It's just like, most people just talk about that down payment, and you're good to go. And as my husband and I learned the other day, homeownership, you got to have that emergency fund in place. We were sitting in our recliners and just watching. 1 minute you're watching suits, the next minute, you have a leak, right? And we were just sitting there watching suits, and my husband looks up at the ceiling, he goes, hey, what's that? And I'm like, it's water. Water. And now there's a giant hole cut in our ceiling.

Oh, boy.

And you got to call Hiller to come over or whoever it is, come fix it up. And you know what? You got to dig into the emergency fund. And so there's a way to do this where owning a home is a blessing and not a burden. And when you do it the way that we teach, it's just that it's a blessing. This is the Ramsey show.

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Way to go. You're listening to the Ramsay show. I'm your host today, Jade Warshaw. Your other host for the day is Dr. John Deloney. If you want to give us a call and talk about your situation, you can do just that. The number is triple 882-5225 man, we're just happy you're here. We're happy that you're listening. And if you love the Ramsay show, if you didn't know this, we have a really cool headquarters here in Franklin, Tennessee. You can come hang out in our lobby. People come almost every day that we host, and they fill up the lobby. We have free coffee and cookies and snacks. And Miss Janelle is probably one of the nicest ladies that you're ever going to meet at the door. It's pretty awesome. So if you're in the area, we'd love if you stopped by sometime. That would be amazing. All right, let's go to the phone lines where we've got Audriana in Philadelphia, Pa. What's going on? Audriana?

Hey, thanks so much for taking my call.

You're welcome. How can we help?

So I am 40 weeks pregnant. Tomorrow. I'm due to have my baby anytime now.

Wow.

Yeah, it's super exciting. It's our first baby. Congrats to that. Thank you. Today was supposed to be my last day of work before maternity Leave. However, when I logged on, I had a message in my inbox inviting me to a meeting with HR. In that meeting, we found out that they're shutting down our branch. I work in corporate travel, so the whole Philadelphia office is getting shut down, and we all lost our jobs. I mean, I'm beyond shocked. I'm devastated. I'm scared.

No one saw this coming.

Worried about pushing a baby out. And I'm worried about what the heck I'm going to do for money after this, because I don't have a job to go back to. So I just need some help navigating what to do moving forward. I can kind of give you guys the bullet points.

I'm going to have Jade walk through the money part of this. But here's what I want to tell you. Whenever you get these flash, everything just caught on fire real fast. Right? I always want to go down to a phrase that gets me through all the cris response stuff. Talking to families who just lost someone or about to lose somebody, wild situations. A guiding phrase for me is, facts are my friend, and I'm going to be angry tomorrow. I'm going to be outraged next week. But today, I need to know if we have food for the next 30 days. You see what I'm saying, right? And so facts are your friends. Jay is going to walk that through. But I want you, and as you and your family you all go through this, your whole life is about to be different. You're about to have this amazing moment. You're right. That takes all your priority. Unless, of course, we don't have enough money. Right? We got to figure this out. And so maybe the next three months we're going to be you staying at home. Maybe suddenly that's change. Facts are your friends. It doesn't mean it's great, doesn't mean it's good.

That means we're going to cry, we're going to be angry, we're going to grieve. But what do we have to do moving forward? Right?

Let's find some things that we can cling to as facts, because I do think that's a great idea. So it's you and your husband. Does your husband work outside the home?

Yes, he does. And he makes 100,000 after taxes take home, it's about 6000 a month between his job. And then he does side work as well. He's a mechanic.

Okay. And what addition does he bring in?

Live off his income.

Right there. That's the fact that you need to cling to.

Now we're just talking, baby. That's it.

Yes, that's it. Just knowing that. I mean, of course it's always nice to have extra money, especially when your family is expanding. But in my, like, I'm looking at this right now, Audrey, and I'm going, oh, God, this could have been so much worse. Like you could have been telling me that you're a single bomb and you just got laid off and there's no money. But the fact that you're here, you've got a guy who's working, he's making enough money for you to live off of. That is the big.

Going to take. So we've never lived on a budget before. Actually, I caught your live segment with George a couple of days ago and I just downloaded the every dollar app and signed up for the trial for premium.

Great.

And we just put together our first budget for March. Great.

That's so good. I'm so proud of you. That's exactly what you should be doing. Very good. And so this is going to be an experiment for you guys. This is going to be new because what were you earning at the job before you were laid off?

About 60,000 a year. Take home was about 3000 a month, give or take. That's like conservative because a lot of my income was commission. So it was like most months we were bringing in between nine and even 10,000 on really good month.

Yeah. So it looks like that was probably, if we look at it just in chunks, that was probably a lot of your fun money. Like a lot of the money that you guys spent just being able to do whatever you want there and it not being a thing. A lot of that money is gone right now. But the good news is, like you said, his income is enough to cover the things that need to get done and the necessary requirements. And when you look at that budget, is there margin for what you feel needs to take place in your life with a baby coming up?

I don't know how to even plan for that because neither of us have kids. I don't know how much diapers are going to cost.

A million dollars?

$50 a box?

A million dollars. And by the way, tell your sweet husband babies poop more than once or twice a day. They go like 1000 times a day. And I did not know that they.

Do in the first six months. You go through a lot of diapers. We're just going to be honest about that.

But you have a nice stash. We had a little diaper party, so we have a nice stash.

Good. And your friends and family, they're like, hey, what do you guys need? And they're not really being serious. You can just look at them with that look of wild, exhausted desperation and say, diapers. Send diapers.

Right?

Diapers, yeah.

Can I give you an experiment? Oh, go ahead, do your thing and I'll tell you at the end.

Well, I was going to tell you, we have been kind of budgeting because originally it's going to be an unpaid maternity leave. So we do have our little stork fund, I think is what you guys call it. So we have that and the plan with that. And this is kind of where I need help. The plan with that, we were going to use that to pay whatever the hospital bill ends up being.

That's great.

Who knows what it's going to be because the insurance company has given me zero help with that.

Well, you're almost most likely going to meet your deductible like almost always, I feel like.

And by the way, if you call the hospital administrator and request a walk out the door number, they'll give it to you. I would not rely on the insurance company. I would talk to the hospital.

Okay, so that's a really good point. I didn't know you could do that.

On both of my kids. I walked into the hospital to have the kid now barring, like, there's a complication in the pregnancy or an emergency or something, but I walked in with both kids knowing exactly the check I was going to write, walking out.

Okay. And we should still plan on just paying that in full with our little stork fund.

Absolutely. That's what it's for.

What is your stork fund? How much is there?

We have, like, a little less than $10,000. It's about $9,500. Now, here's the other thing. So I was told, since we're being laid off, I do get a small severance of about $5,000.

Okay.

And they're also going to pay me out for the next 60 days, which is a bonus, because I wasn't even going to be making any money.

Okay. How much is that? So another 6000, probably.

Yeah. When it's all said and done, 6000 plus the five. So I'll make an extra eleven grand in the next three months.

Right.

And I want to know, because our plan, we wanted to use our savings to pay off some debt. We have about $56,000 in debt.

Okay.

And I'm wondering if now that I don't have a job, should we pause that? And just.

Not necessarily, if you know that you can live off your husband's income at this point, I wouldn't pause it. It would be one thing if you said, hey, my husband's income is not enough to make ends meet. Well, then it's like, whatever money you have, we're counting every bean. But you said, listen, we can live off my husband's income. I've got an extra $10,000 coming. I'm throwing that towards my debt now. I'm keeping $1,000 saved just for that starter emergency fund, but everything else, once the baby's here, once the baby's bill is paid for, I'm throwing all of this money into debt. That's exactly what I would do.

And here it is. Facts to your friends. You're safe. You got enough money to pay for everything. You got extra money coming in. I'm not giving this company 1 second of my grief while I'm bringing this beautiful new baby into the world. They don't get that vote in your life. We're going to have fun now because we're all good.

We're all good. Ooh, love that. Yeah. When it comes to babies, I'm always saying, like, save up for your deductible, save up your out of pocket Max. It just helps you sleep well at night, regardless of what takes place. Thanks for listening. This is the Ramsey show live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions. It's the Ramsey show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships, the actual kind. And I am here with Dr. John Deloney. I'm Jade Warshaw. We are hosting this hour of the show for you, America, and those of you listening abroad, you can give us a call. The number is triple 8825-5225 and somebody very wonderful will pick up the phone and screen it, and then we will talk to you. We'll chop it up. Whatever's going on with your life, your money, we'll help you sort it out. Let's go straight to the phone lines where we've got Lindsay from Toledo, Ohio. What's going on, Lindsay?

Hi, gang. John, thank you so much for taking my call.

You betcha.

So, I was just hoping to get your insight on a fun little debate my husband and I are having.

Yep. Me and y'all are fighting. What about?

I love it.

Actually. So we're baby step four, five, and six, and we feel really blessed to have found out that my husband's being included on his bonus. His company's, like, bonus payout this year. He started halfway through the year, so we weren't really expecting it. The debate is on what we should do with that money.

How much is it?

So I got a bonus of two grand, and then his is ten after taxes.

Twelve g. Yeah.

So we have some sinking funds for home improvements and kids college giving and our mortgage. So I'm leaning a little bit toward putting a little bit larger of a chunk toward the mortgage. And he's siding a little bit more toward putting a lot more of a chunk toward home improvements.

Okay. The home improvements. Is this just for fun, or is it, like, this needs, like, we got to get this done?

It's for fun. We want to do siding, and garage doors are the big ones.

Me, too. Can I just say? Me, too. I need some siding and my garage door, I think, was built by a small chipmunk. It's time.

That's funny.

Good on you. Good on you.

Okay. Other question is, are you guys currently. I mean, you're in. Baby says four, five and six. So it goes without saying that you're investing 15% into retirement without the bonus. Are you still putting away a little bit for kids college every month? Are you still putting a little extra on the mortgage, or have you not touched those categories yet? Yeah.

So, with a little bit extra each month, how we've been going is we're going to pay off our mortgage in ten years, and we put a little bit in the kids college. But that's the one thing we haven't set, like, an actual number that we're trying to hit. We just kind of throw a little bit in there each month. We have four kids, so we do, like, 50 for each kid. Okay, so the quotes we got for our home improvements, the number we're trying to hit is, like, between 25 and 30 grand. We have about five so far. And so my husband's leaning a little bit more toward, like, let's put a really big chunk, and we could just get that out of the. And I'm. My husband thinks he just jokes as I'm, like, trying to babysep to the mortgage.

Well, let me tell you. Okay, fun ruiner. Lindsay, you tell me what you think about this, because this is what me and my husband, you know, it sounds like you're taking care of business on the baby steps front with your, know, month to month money. And so whenever extra money comes, know, I kind of put it under that framework of, okay, what can you do with money? You can give, save, and spend it. And so whenever there's extra money coming in, what is something that we're doing to give some of this money? What's something that we're doing to save some of it? And what's something we're doing to have fun and spend it? And honestly, all the categories, you said fall under one of those categories. So to do home improvements, hey, that's a little spending money. That's fun. That's something fun that you can do. Kids college, that's you giving, right? Because you're giving money for your kids education, and it's a gift for them. And then the mortgage, in way, that's you saving money because it's a forced savings account that you're building equity with that home. And so you could look at this 12,000 and say, let's just split it evenly, and let's put 4000 to each of these categories and call it a day.

And that might be the way you solve it. But if you're one of these people who's like, I have to complete one of them. Then it's like, then you just decide, okay, is $12,000 enough to do all of the home improvements that we want to do? And then it's just knocked off the list from now until whenever the next thing pops up. Or, I mean, it's not enough to pay off the mortgage and it's not enough to cap off their kind of, like, the idea of either. I would either do the home improvement project and it's done and done. Or I would just be like, all right, I'm splitting this equally three ways.

Can I add one more thing to it?

Go ahead.

So, Lindsay, often I'm like, you like, whenever we had our mortgage, I kept wanting to babystep to it. And I'll never forget, after being married for 20 years, my wife came to me and said, hey, could we get a headboard that's not off Craigslist that you spray painted in our backyard?

Wow.

Three houses ago. And I was like, you know what?

That's so me.

Today's going to be your. I'm a great husband, right? I'm the worst. But here's what I found myself falling into is I just had this idea that I wanted to pay it off faster. And for my wife, that was a moving target. Because no matter how much extra we put on the mortgage a particular month, my particular finish line moved because I wasn't chasing a number, I was chasing a feeling. And so I like the idea. What Jade said is, okay, we're going to put it all in home improvements. We need to get 5000 more dollars and we're going to knock all these home improvements out. But here's the trade. The trade is instead of doing this in ten years, I want to take off one year of the mortgage. And that means we're going to have to put this much more a month. Are you in on that? You see what I'm saying? And that way it's not, I just want to pay it off faster versus. And that's going to hold you accountable to not being dragged around by your feelings, but it's also going to give him, your husband, a finish line.

Okay, we can do this. And here's a way we can make this thing work mathematically and both of you all can be at peace. You see what I'm saying?

Yes. Actually, that is perfect. The only bad part about that is I see the best way to go. My husband's going to think he's winning this argument.

You got to let that go, sister. That ego is going to bury you. Let it go.

It's all in fun.

I, I know, know.

That'S actually a.

Really good idea because I do know he speaks kind of truth where I sometimes do get a little bit fired up and passionate about focus on one target, but he is like, slow down.

Well, I don't mind passionate about one target, but let's be very clear about that target is not just, I want to pay this off faster. All right, what does that mean? And how much is it going to take for us to get there?

Yeah, I'm with that. I like it. Because the fact of the matter is for some people paying off debt, whether it's their actual debt or their mortgage or whatever it is, they get energy from that. They feel like they're accomplishing something and it feels great. And then there's another spouse that it feels totally draining and it's like, how much more money are we going to throw down this dark hole? And it just feels like you're tossing money away, even though with a mortgage you are getting something in return. For a lot of personality types, it does feel like it's just this dark hole that you're tossing $10,000 bills.

You're just melting your joy away.

Yeah.

So it's so, so important when you get to those upper baby steps, four, five and six, to do really what John said and just make sure that you're having those clear conversations and that you're not just bulldozing through. Not to say that she's a bulldozer, because she's not, but you all understand what I mean. This is the Ramsey show. You're listening to the Ramsey show. I am Jade Warshaw. Next to me is Dr. John Deloney. We'll be taking your calls for the next hour or so, hanging out with you guys. If you want to talk with us, give us a call. The number is triple 8825-5225 we'd be so happy to hear from you. Honestly, it's an honor to talk to folks on the phone, John. I think it's really crazy that people call in, man. They trust us with things going on in their life, their money, their marriage, their relationships. And we're just two people, man. We're just two people sitting here giving our opinions. So thanks for hanging out with us. Thanks for trusting us with that. And no matter where you consume the show, if you like it, if it's helped you, if it's done something for your life, your money, consider sharing it, number one.

Like subscribe it, but consider sharing it with the people around you. Not only will it help us, hopefully it helps them. And more good content like this will continue to crop up wherever it is that they listen to podcasts, wherever it is that they listen and watch videos on YouTube. So that's really helpful for us. Hopefully, it's really helpful for you and for the folks that you're sharing with as well. Thank you. Thank you again. All right, let's take some phone calls. We've got Christina, who is in Omaha, Nebraska. How can we help Christina?

Hi, guys.

Hey.

Sorry. Hi, guys. Thanks for taking my call. Okay, so I have a question. We are extremely new to the Ramsey plan. Just kind of started following it in December.

Welcome to the madhouse.

Welcome to the junk.

We're glad to have you.

So, I have a question on how to line up what we've been doing, because I think up to this point, we've been doing our best, but it's not really lined up with the plan. So since December, we have established the $1,000 emergency fund, and we have another $4,000 in savings.

Great.

We only have one credit card in which we owe $5,000 on, and I know I could pay that off, but I have a question about that. So, I do have a son who is going to start college in August, and I'm trying to figure out how to do one, two, and three and then still be able to pay for college. So he has gotten a lot of scholarships and financial aid. And right now, from what we know of, he is sitting at about 18,000 a year. And that's room, board, tuition, everything, because it's not here close by.

That's what he's earned.

Well, that's what he'll be paying. What we'll be paying.

That's what you'll be paying.

$18,000, you said scholarships and financial aid. How much of that is student loans?

No, that's what I'm trying to avoid.

Okay. So after all the scholarships and everything, it's 18,000 will be the all in.

Out of your pocket cost.

Got you.

Yes. And so over the nine months, basically, of the year, that'd be $2,000 a month. And that's where the $4,000 in savings came from. In January and February, we kind of played it out to see if we could do $2,000 a month, and we actually could a lot easier than we thought we could. And so I know that there's still a chance he could get more scholarships, and we're definitely applying for them, but I'm worried that I'm kind of skipping step three.

You're broke.

Yes.

You all aren't safe.

Yeah. We have money in our retirement, and we don't owe very much on our house and all that. But like I said, we're kind of scattered all over the board.

That's right. What type of school is this? Is this a university? State university?

It's actually a private university, but, yes, it is a four year degree.

So here's my take on this and you can take it or leave it or take parts of it. Paying for college is a gift that is a privilege for us to be able to give. Right. And it's something that we can do out of the abundance of us handling our money correctly. And the way the baby steps are, the way that they are is because there are certain things that are going to take place in your life that you can't stop. And you need to be prepared when those things take place, no matter what. God willing, at some point you're going to retire and you're going to stop working and you won't be able to work anymore. And you're going to have to be able to make sure that your household is taken care of. And so that is why we go through these baby steps, starting at baby step one. And that's why baby step five is way further down the list, because it's not the priority that it can seem in the moment. And that's also why we teach all of these ways to go to college. Less expensive, because it is expensive and everybody comes to us at different points in their journey.

And so in your case, I love that you have baby step one done. I love that you're thinking about cash flowing. This I'd also love for you to be thinking about, okay, I've got $5,000 in credit card debt. I need to pay that off. I've got to save up three to six months of expenses. Like your family needs you to have three to six months of expenses. So I don't want you putting that off over the course of the next four years because of this $2,000. If there's a way that we can find cheaper education that still gets him where he wants to go, I'm always recommending that people start with community college. It's so much less expensive. It gets those gen eds out of the way in a way, more inexpensive way, and then you've got the private school thing added. That's adding an expense. So I would challenge you guys to look at this and say, is there an option that makes more sense with our financial situation? And then the third piece to that is, is there a way that your son can work to add to this? Because if he can pick up $1,000 a month, that's amazing.

I love the community college idea. You all aren't going to do that. I know you're not. I've worked with colleges for 20 years. You all aren't going to do that. He got in. He got the scholarship. And that feels good. I do think it's very wise to consider, hey, son, here's our financial situation. We can do $1,000 a month over the course of one year, and you're going to have to come up with the rest. And if contingent on us putting money on the table is you can't borrow it, which means you're going to have to earn some money. And what I'm telling you is the data says that he'll do better in school with some skin in the game.

That's right.

And maybe you say after your freshman year, if you come home with straight a's or whatever metric you all want to put on the table and you've paid this thing down, we might be in a place where we can increase and allow you to move into your major courses as you go do an internship or whatever. The thing is. And so it might be a moving target, but it's sitting down and saying, hey, we're all going to have some skin in the game. But as Jade said, you can only have skin in the game if you can afford it. And right now, you have no cash reserves. Zero.

Right? And he doesn't start school until August.

Great.

That's all you've got. Did you have time?

And he's got time from now until August. How much would it like? This sounds like a stupid question, but I actually don't know this. How much is like a three to six month fund?

It's not a stupid question.

It's not stupid at all. So when we talk about, matter of fact, a lot of people are going to get help off of that question. When we talk about three to six months of an emergency fund, we're truly talking about basic expenses that make your household run. So if you look at your budget in all its glory, right, with all the bells and whistles and there's extra money there for you to get a haircut and get your nails done and to go to the movies and all these other three to six months of expenses doesn't include all that stuff. It's like, all right, it's the mortgage, it's groceries, it's keeping gas in the car, it's keeping the lights and utilities on. It's the basic stuff that if the worst were to happen, like you get laid off, it's what you would cut your budget down to, to make things work. And so three to six months of what you would consider your bare bones budget to make things work and run and tick, that's what you need. Three to six months of that. Does that make sense?

Yeah. So there actually is a chance from now until August that I could pay off the credit card and get three months, probably not six. There is three months saved up.

There is. But I want you to realize that there's another baby step even after that, which is saving 15% of your income into retirement, which is so, so important for you.

And we are actually doing that one. That's what I meant by we're all over the place. And so we actually do have that one in place.

Hey, listen. As somebody who spent my entire career working with college students and their families, please ask your child to participate in some shape, form or fashion in their education, please.

Yes, and I do plan on that. I don't necessarily want him to do it first semester.

Why not?

Because I'm worried about the transition.

Don't be. In fact, one of the things about the transition is kids will go to a residence hall. They will know nobody, and they'll hold their phone, and they'll stay connected to their old high school friends. Now, and they never make the separation. If they go to school, they get plugged into their academics and then they go have a job. They have a thing that they have to go to. A purpose, a place to be in a built in human community that they have to interact with. It's not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing.

And he does work. Now, I know that wouldn't be hard.

But you need to sit down and say, here's a dollar amount. And by the way, that $18,000, as Jade said, doesn't cover haircuts. He's going to want to go on a date. He's going to need new shoes. He's going to need new clothes. So it's more than just $18,000. There's living expenses on top of all this college charge.

Yeah. It's so, so important. I'm glad that you're in a better financial situation than I thought. And it sounds like you do have the money to pay for this. But I completely agree with John. Make him pay. Some piece of this skin in the game is absolutely necessary. This is the Ramsey show. You are listening to the Ramsey show. I'm your host for today, Jade Warshaw. Your other host for today is Dr. John Deloney, author of building a non anxious life. Host of the Dr. John Deloney show. Really, really cool. So, John, it is tax season, and.

A lot of you, I'm done.

You did it.

I already got mine back and filed, man. They crushed it for me. It's awesome.

Wait, so it's already, did you get a return or.

No, I did. Yeah. I'm still figuring out all the commission stuff on book sales. I'm still figuring out how it works. But I did. Hey, right afterwards, I went and met with the CFO here, and I contacted our tax person to adjust the withholding ratio because my return was.

It went crazy silly.

Yeah.

But all I can say is, man, I've got a weird thing. I like to get them done and get like, I need to know what I need to know.

Same. I send that stuff off lickety split to our mother in law, who is an amazing bookkeeper. Books by Nita. I'm just saying. Just a little something there.

All right.

Anyway, you need to get yourself a Ramsey trusted pro, though not my mother in law. All right, so here's the thing. A lot of you do have questions about taxes, and we understand that I have questions. Taxes are confusing. And so to help you get a better handle on them, we're just going to take some of your questions and answer them out loud. These are questions from you guys, our listeners. One of the questions was this. It said, we normally have someone do our taxes, but our tax accountant retired. I think that we have a simple return. Should we try to do the filing ourselves with Ramsey smart tax? Okay, so here's the thing. You could definitely use a software like Ramsey smart tax if you feel confident in filing your own and that your situation is actually relatively simple. So here's some kind of guidelines to know if it is or not. We would recommend working with a tax pro if you have some sort of major life change, like, I don't know, you retired or you received an inheritance or you adopted a child, something like that. In that case, you probably would want to work with a professional for that year.

Number two, if you own a business, a small business, there's a lot of little nuts and bolts in there that it would just superly be helpful to work with a tax pro. That's Sam and I situation. We always work with a pro. All right. Number three, if you're just not confident about filing your taxes, if that's you, that's totally fine. Even if it's simple. If you're not confident, you should work with a tax pro. And then finally, number four, if you just want to save yourself some time and stress, get yourself a tax pro. It's so worth it. So again, if you are confident about filing on your own, you can head to ramsesolutions.com slash tax there you will find Ramsey smart tax. It's low upfront pricing. There's no hidden fees in it. Or you can connect with a Ramsey trusted tax pro. If you're not as confident, again, both of those resources you can find@ramseysolutions.com. Slash tax. Love it. All right. Got that out of the way. Tax season makes people feel some type of way, John.

Well, and I actually did both of know as a Ramsey employee, Ramsey taxes open to us for free. And so I actually ran my own stuff and sent it to the accountant and said, I think this is where we're going to end up. Were you close it? Almost. Bulls dyed it. And so that software is pretty good. Now I've got a super simple return. I'm a pretty lame, boring guy, but it was right on. It was right on.

If I think about filing my own taxes, I can feel my eye starting to twitch. It's already starting to twitch. I can't and I won't do it. All right, let's go to Colin, who's in San Diego, California. Colin, what's going on in San Diego, man?

Hi, guys. Thank you so much for taking my call.

You bet. How can we help?

Well, first I wanted to say tax season actually makes me very excited as a tax preparer.

Okay. This is your super bowl.

It is, yes.

So I'll start with my question, then I'll give some context. So I'm curious what you guys would think about filing a chapter seven bankruptcy. Given my age and current financial situation, I know it's supposed to be the last resort option, but right now I'm 24, I'm technically employed. But due to some mental health issues, I'm kind of waiting to hear back on whether or not I still have that job. And then also searching for a new job. And then also just because the weight of some of this debt, it also has a toll on my mental health. And I just find it impossible to see the end goal. So I'm 24. My credit score is below 600. It's not great. And I know sometimes they say that that will bankruptcy could help increase. Sometimes it actually increases it rather than decreases it. How much do you owe, brother Colin, how much do you owe? It's not like an insane much.

About 34.

Okay, 34,000. And tell me about your mental and emotional health challenges that make work hard. At least right now. What I know is I'm pretty open about it, so I'm saying it on air. I have a major depressive disorder and social anxiety disorder, and they've played impacts on my jobs over the past couple of years. How are you waking up every day and leaning into getting well? What does your wellness adventure look like right now? What interventions are you taking? The one thing that's really helped is I did go back to school and I started a new career path. And that has actually helped. Being in the tax field is actually. What are you doing right now? Are you under the care of a licensed mental health professional or a doctor? Yes.

Okay.

Yes, two. Okay. So I'm assuming you're taking medication for major depressive disorder at least, right?

Yes. Correct.

Are you taking some sort of cocktail? No, just a single one. Just. Okay. When I see him next, I'm going to be talking about that, actually.

Okay.

So when you see your practitioner next, a couple of things I want you to discuss. Medication is fine. It's going to be a bridge to getting you from here to there. And with major depressive disorder, man, it's a whole tangled web of a mess.

Right.

It's very difficult. And most people in your life have no idea how hard it is to just get out of bed on some days. Fair.

Yeah.

And that's actually the attendance has kind of been too late and shifts has kind of been the issue. Here's the other side of it. It's the tiny little steps towards showing up, towards going for a walk, towards talking to a friend, even though your body is screaming at you, saying that friend's not safe, knowing that once your body experiences that friend is safe, then suddenly the lights start to come on a little bit. So when you sit down with your provider, I want you to ask, in addition to medication, can we have three or four tasks that I'm going to begin to work on on my own. Because you're stuck in a loop right now, and the loop is, it's hard to get up, it's hard to go do things. My body's always yelling and screaming at me to not move, not move because the world's not safe. And so you don't move, and that reinforces your body's message to you. Your body's getting what it wants. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. And so the goal is, with the right counselor, the right exercise program, the right medication, what are we going to do so that we can head into those challenges?

Do you see what I'm saying? Absolutely. Please look at this as I'm working towards empowerment, not looking towards someone to come save me.

Yeah.

Do you see what I'm saying? The difference? Absolutely. Okay. Have you ever been suicidal?

Yes.

Okay. Are you safe now? Yes. It was a while ago, and I've been discussed with my professionals, so I'm not anymore. Well, hey, I have not late. I want to applaud you because saying it out loud is now you. Now you're going towards the heart, right? You're choosing hard, you're leaning in towards discomfort, and on the back end is a guy. Now, you got a new friend across the country that's cheering you on. You got two new friends, me and Jade, plus millions of people.

Oh, thank God.

Okay. Now Jade can get into the numbers with you. I'm asking you as your new friend, please do not file bankruptcy over $30,000. Okay? Please don't do that. Yeah.

And I'm asking you, as your new friend, to please not file. Because here's the thing. You're knee deep in your situation, and you can't always see the forest for the trees. And so you need external people to kind of look at your situation and go, oh, I see it for what it actually is. And John and I are looking at this, and we're going, oh, no way in the world do we file. And I think for you, the biggest workaround is what John said. You have to get to a situation and get to a level of health where you're able to work and so that you can get this paid off, because I'm guessing, I don't know what kind of debt it is, but whatever it is, just a reasonable salary, you're out of this in a year and a half or two years.

And so we're working towards empowerment, standing taller, getting that work in, and that's the path to freedom. Hang on the line. I'm going to send you both of my books.

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You're listening to the Ramsay show. I am Jade Warshaw, one of your hosts today. You could call me a co host because I have another host, and his name is Dr. John Deloney. And we're taking your calls all hour long, so give us a call. The number is triple 8825-5225 and whatever it is that you're going through in your life, your money, we'd like to talk it through with you. So tell us what's going on and we'll help you out. We're going to go straight to the phone lines where we've got Jason from Orlando, Florida. What's going on, Jason? How can we help today?

Go, John. Jade, thank you so much for taking my call today. So, my name is Jason, I'm 24 years old, and I'm from Orlando, Florida. I want to start off first by giving my question and then go ahead and give the breakdown on the numbers. My question is, how can I properly budget to pay off all my debt and then save for a future engagement rate?

Love it. Okay. Yeah. Well, let's hear about the debt and then we can talk about what a budget might look like for this.

Okay, awesome. So I want to just first start off by saying that I already paid off in the last two months $8,000 on my credit card debt.

Okay, good.

So right now, I have a card loan of $13,000. I have student loans of $15,000.

Okay.

And I have leftover credit card debt of $9,000. So totaling $37,000.

Okay.

I'm a recent graduate. Go ahead.

Oh, I was just going to ask a little bit about the lady, the young lady that you want to propose to. How long have you guys been seeing each other?

Yeah, so we've been seeing each other for four years now. So I'm planning for next year to move out with her. Move in together. I'm currently living with my parents.

Is that before you propose or after you propose?

That's one of the things that I wasn't exactly sure on. If I should propose first before moving out or propose after moving out together. That's something that I haven't completely decided on. Maybe you guys can help me with that, too.

It's been four years, man.

What are you waiting?

Yeah. I'm not going to tell you to pay off your debt before you buy a ring.

Okay.

I think it's just a matter of.

You to pay for the ring first. Right.

I think you'll go down to the courthouse this weekend and get married. It's four years, dude. Half a decade. What are you waiting on?

That's fair. This total debt on credit card, student loans and car loans is just a lot.

Listen, it's nice to have help.

That's true. I was thinking about moving in together, coming in debt free, at least in that sense. But what I don't want is to pay off my credit cards and all my loans and then going in debt again by buying engagement ring, not having enough money, and then buying and touching my credit cards again.

Yeah, but that's your choice.

Definitely don't want to do that.

You have to remember, all of this is on you, and it's your choice. Nothing's going to make you go into debt unless you decide, I'm just going to go into debt and buy this. And so, since you called us, I'll tell you what my timeline would be and what I would do. And if it doesn't jive with the way you are or what you believe, then you can take what you want and leave what you want. But if I were you, I'd say, okay, I've got this debt. I've got $37,000 of debt. It's important to me that I pay it off. But I also have a little honey over here that I want to make sure that I'm proposing to her. So I'd probably see if there's a way that I can cash flow this ring very quickly while still paying a little off debt here or there. It's not to say that you have to completely turn the faucet off on paying off your debt, but make it a reasonable timeline. So I'm proposing to her as quickly as possible, to John's point, and then I'm just going to marry her after that. I'm going to be like, let's get married as soon as possible.

I'm not going to do this year long thing of I'm going to move out and then I'm going to wait a year, and then I'm going to propose, and then I'm going to wait five more years, and then I'm going to marry her. Because before you know it, you guys are going to have gray hairs. So I just would make this happen as quickly as possible. It's not a caveat. Paying off debt is not a precursor to marriage. It doesn't have to be. And I don't want you to think that I have to pay off all my debt going into this relationship first. I think it's something that you guys can tackle together. And at the end of the day, in many ways, it kind of brings you closer together when you work on something like this together. I think now, Jason, I'm going to.

Go negative for a second. You hang with me.

Yep. Okay.

All right. Jade and I would not have jobs if everybody who had a plan, if it all worked out exactly as they lined their plan up. It's just not how life works. We only have jobs because people have great ideas about stuff and it all goes sideways. So if you get engaged to this person and you all move in and you all start paying off debt together, and then, God forbid, you all break up, you're trying to play house and do a practice marriage, and something goes sideways and it's been five years and then six years, and she says, forget this, dude. I'm not waiting anymore. And you all break up. The process of unwinding. Well, who paid off what debt and what was mine, and it was part of my salary and what went into the food and who paid that is a nightmare. The reason we tell people to get married, besides the moral side of it, right, is because if there is ever a fracture in the relationship, if the relationship ever breaks up, there is a legal path of separation. Out. Do you get what I'm saying?

Yes.

So you think you're saving yourself a bunch of heartache, and I don't want to put the apple before the cart, you end up just playing. You end up getting in a big old jumbled mess. And so, following Jade's advice here is really if you're my brother, if you were my son, if you were one of my close friends, I would give you the exact advice that Jay just gave you, simply because it clarifies and cleans up your life and it makes your path much more simple.

And it doesn't involve you waiting to start your life.

Yeah, you're waiting to start your life. This amazing thing called being married, which is chaos and incredible. It's so great and messy and fun and scary and all the good stuff. And Jade and I wouldn't trade it for the world, but you're just keeping it all on pause, right?

Right.

I'm going to call her your fiance. Does she have debt?

She only has, or actually, yes, she does have debt. She has $1,000 in credit card loans. And she has an expensive car. She has, I think, $20,000 right now.

Okay.

In the car. But that's about it.

Yeah. So I think that, again, you are downloading every dollar. If you don't yet have it, if you want the premium version, you can do everydollar.com Jade and I'll give you a promo code so you can have premium for a couple of months free. And you're setting up your budget in a way that is allowing you to make headway paying off this debt. Because paying off debt is a great thing. Pay off as much as you can. But it's also setting aside some money so you can spend a percentage of your income on a ring, maybe one month's income on a ring. Right. And then as soon as you give her that ring, it's like, hey, how quickly can we get married? I love your butt and I want to get married instantly. And then you do that and that's it.

I have $2,200 left over after my monthly expenses. How much would you say from those? $2,200 should go into paying debt and then the other saving into the engagement ring.

So you have $2,200, that's your income? Or is that margin?

No. So my monthly take home pay is $4,000, but my monthly expenses are $1,800. So leftover is $2,200.

Okay, so that's the margin. And you're saying how much of that should go towards the debt and how much should go towards the ring?

Correct.

I mean, if you wanted to do. If you're trying to buy a $4,000 ring, then split it in half and say, I'm going to use half of this to pay for the debt, I'm going to use half of this to go towards the ring. And in four months you're proposing. And four months also buys you time to get your head around the fact that, like, man, I'm about to be a married man and I got to.

Move out from my mommy's house and get my own place. Right?

Wow. Yeah.

We're toggling up, man. This is grow up time. How old are you? You said 24.

24.

Game on, dude. Game on. We're going to be all grown up and we're going to follow the great Beyonce's advice. If you like her, then you better put a ring on it.

That's right. That's good, John. I'm proud of you.

Thank you, queen bee.

That's good. I never thought I'd see the day. Here we are, guys. We're always going to tell you to get married. By the way, if you're in a situation where you have been dating someone for like 5678, 910 years, we're almost always going to tell you to piss or get off the pot.

Either get married or call it.

That's right.

Call it.

That's right. And don't let debt keep you from pushing. Start on very valuable and meaningful relationships in your life. Hey, thanks for hanging out with us this hour. I'm Jade Warshaw. He's John Deloney. And this is the Ramsey show, live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions. It's the Ramsey show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. I am your co host today, Jade Warshaw, joined by your other co host, who would be George Camel. We're talking about your life, your money, all hour long. So give us a call. The number is triple 8825-5225 Dr. John Deloney has mysteriously been replaced with George Camel.

Well, we wanted a strong end to the show, Jay. We need someone to really land the plane.

Someone who could land the plane.

Yeah, that's who they call in.

I love it. Well, I'm glad you're here. It's fun to host together. Let's go to the phone lines. We've got Yvette in Los Angeles, California. What's going on, Yvette?

Hi. Thanks for taking my call.

No problem.

So I'll start off with a question, give you some numbers and then some reasoning. Okay, so we have a mortgage on two homes. One is a primary residence in California, and the other is an investment property in Arizona. So we're wondering if we should sell our primary home in California and rent here in order to pay off our California real estate debt. And then we would keep our Arizona home and pay that off. And we estimate to pay that off in five years. So the Arizona debt is $219,000 with an $1800 mortgage. And our California real estate debt consists of our mortgage. That's 389. That's the balance. Then we have a heloc of 95k. We have a solar loan of pool, loan of personal loan of. We kind of feel like selling our California home would allow us to pay off all the California real estate debt.

Can you tell me what the total of that all is so I don't have to add it up? The 380 plus all that 610.

Yeah.

Okay, thanks.

So selling that would allow us to pay all that off. And then what we would do with the profits from the home is we would put 60k toward the Arizona principal, which would lower our mortgage. And then we'd be able to put away our six months of living expenses, which we currently don't have any of that. We have $1,000 of savings. That's it. So this would allow us to put away six months of living expenses, and then it'll also allow us to invest 15% of our income. And then the last bit of info is renting here in California would be about 2800 a month. Plus we'll still have the Arizona mortgage, which we anticipate to be around 1200. Once we make that 60k payment toward the principal.

Are you going to refinance the mortgage in Arizona or recast it? What was your plan there?

Recast? Yeah, it would be a recast. I already spoke to the lender. And so she said that it would recast and probably come down quite a bit.

Why keep the Arizona rental? Why not just sell that?

Why not sell the Arizona rental?

Yeah.

If you guys had the money sitting there, you're not going to go out in California and go buy a property in Arizona to rent out.

Right.

So why not just sell this and be done with it and use that profit to pay down the debt?

Well, the profit on that Arizona house would only be about 5000. We've only had it, like, ten months.

Okay. You've only had it ten months? Yeah.

And what would your home sell for in California?

We're hoping to get 750.

Okay. But you owe 610. Right. So you're saying the money you'd get out of that, that would get your emergency fund going, that clears all of your debt and it gets you a clean slate.

Yeah.

What's the cash flow on this Arizona property?

Not much at all. I think we made, like, 3000.

I think you're about to lose money on this deal. If you're not making much with real estate investment, you're losing money because it takes one emergency for you to be underwater on this thing.

And then you said the plan was for you to turn around and be renters in California.

Yes. We can't move to Arizona right now, so eventually we plan to move out of California. When can you? Maybe in about twelve years.

Oh, twelve years. What's keeping you?

Our jobs.

Okay, here's where I'm at with this. You've only had the Arizona property for eight months. It's not cash flowing. It's not making you any money. If you were to sell it, you'd maybe clear $5,000 for it. And honestly, that might be what happens, because you're losing money on it. You're not there. You don't plan to move there. If you were telling me, hey, we're going to sell this California situation, it's just debt. We're going to clear it and then we're going to be able to move to Arizona. We'll pay off 60,000 on that mortgage, we'll have six months of emergency funds saved, and we're starting our new life in Arizona, that'd be a different conversation. But if the plan is not to move there for twelve more years and to keep this property and you be renters in California. I don't like that plan, George.

Yeah. I'm thinking the money you would have put toward the Arizona mortgage, why don't you put that away in savings and use that as your future down payment? I don't want you guys renting for ten years.

I agree.

So that's what I would do. I would sell both properties. Any money that's left over beyond your emergency fund becomes the new down payment fund. And we work to stock that up to buy a house the more peaceful way.

That's my vote. But the bigger question here, and I mean, this is the elephant in the room. 95,050, 2050, 8000, 16,000. And then we're going to buy a second property in another state. There's a pattern of behavior here that's just like atomic.

How can you assure us that you're not going to go into debt again? Yeah, because this feels like a great little shortcut to become debt free, but it didn't actually change much of the behavior that got us here. Yeah, because you guys make great money.

What's your household income take home is 162.

Wow.

And there's not much to show for it after all these debt payments leaving your bank account.

We're just sick and tired of being sick and tired.

Yeah. And let's be honest, 162 in Los Angeles. It's not like you're Scrooge McDuck. It's a decent income, right? It is, but it's not like outlandish. It's not like if you made 162 living in Kansas. So I just think that there's help me understand what you were trying to accomplish by taking out all of this debt, because there's got to be a learning from this.

Yeah. So originally, when we had bought this house here, we wanted this to be like our forever home. And so we added the pool thinking about our grandkids and just the family gathering here. And the solar loan really helped our electricity bill, which was like $400 average. And so we're barely paying $200 a month fixed on that.

Add up your debt payments and tell me this solar was such a great deal.

I'm sorry.

People justify solar because of their savings, but here you are rocking this solar debt with interest on it. That probably won't Roi for a long time.

Well, it won't Roi because she's.

And now you're selling, selling the house.

And going to rent for twelve years. So what George and I are getting at is we want to make sure that you can look at every single one of these decisions and go, oh, I see exactly why that was a bad move. I see exactly how that cost me. Right?

You built your dream forever home that you now have to sell. That's what's sad to.

Yeah, yeah, it is a little sad. We're just the California politics. If we could move out of California.

Come on, Yvette. Don't blame California politics for your money decisions. It's an easy scapegoat. Instead of looking in the mirror and going, we took the freaking heloc out. We took the pool loan out. No governor made you do that. No state made you do that. We just got to own the decision. And it's sad that you guys have to give up the dream home. But this house turned from a blessing into a burden real quick because of your money decision. So this is a great way to clean it up. But you got to change the behavior.

To go with it.

I'm selling both properties and let's start fresh.

And in many ways, you have to look at it. They got lucky that there's even some equity to get out of this, that they can have a deal.

Get out of jail free card.

Don't go back to jail.

Get it? And change that behavior. This is the Ramsay show.

Yo, yo. Dr. John Deloney here with some big news. Money and marriage getaway is back. October 24 through 26th. Join Rachel Cruz and me for a weekend in Nashville, Tennessee, to focus on your marriage. You're going to get two and a half days of teaching, take part in a bunch of live Q and A's, and get the tools you need to win with money and intimacy together. Tickets start at $799, and you can pick up the limited vip tickets left and get all the perks, including meet and greets with me and Rachel. Go to ramsaysolutions.com events.

Hey, you guys are listening to the Ramsay show. I'm Jade Warshaw. Next to me is George Camel. I almost said Dr. George Camel.

You know what? It's not too late for an honorary degree. Anyone wants to give one to me.

I bestow it upon you. Hey, we're taking your calls all hour. You can call us in. The number is triple 8825-5225 and we'll take your call. George, I am happy to yet again announce total money makeover weekend coming up.

I'm getting excited.

Yeah, I'm so excited.

Are you planning your talk? Because we're coming up with all new content for this weekend event.

I am not only planning a talk, George, I have pitched a whole new stage design.

Wow.

Listen, I'm going in full around here.

I'm trying. I'm trying. The point is, this event is going to be unlike any Ramsay event that you've been to. All new content. We're delivering. We're playing the hits, but we're delivering them. It's like a remix, right?

Oh, I like that.

I like that. We're delivering the hits in a completely new way. And by hits, I mean we're talking about the baby steps. Baby steps one through seven. You know them, you love them. And so the event is really cool because no matter where you are in the baby steps, there's going to be content there for you. So it's just a really fun event. All the personalities are going to be there. There's going to be live Q and A's all throughout the weekend. So you can bring your questions. You get that really cool access to what's going on and something different about our events. I don't know what events you're used to, but our events are actually fun. Like, they're bangers. We have a good.

So, yeah, people have been to, like, a seminar, and I'm like, no, you need to come to a Ramsey event. It's a whole experience. We have a world class live events team, and it's a weekend experience. So Nashville is a great destination. Start putting into the budget for the travel, the lodging, the transportation, and, of course, your tickets, which are super low right now.

99.

$99.

I keep telling bird charge more. I'm like, this is wild.

I feel like this should be like, two, three, $400. But what do I know? The point is early bird tickets start at $99. But to be true, that's only for a limited time. So that price is going to go away at some point. So make sure you get your tickets now. And the first 500 tickets sold, you will get a copy of total money makeover signed by Dave himself.

I might buy one just to get that signed copy.

I know, right? He won't sign one for me.

He won't do it.

So don't wait. These will go fast. If you want to get your tickets, you can go to ramsesolutions.com slash events to get your tickets.

Awesome.

Let's go straight to the phone lines. We got Chris in Kansas City, Missouri. What's going on, Chris?

Hey, there. Thanks for taking my call. I'm looking for some guidance. So I am making okay money right now. We're in baby step two. We still have some student loans, credit card and a car, and then our house. And I'm starting to do some real estate part time, and I'm trying to figure out what the number or what I should aim for so I can start doing that full time. I'm not ready to quit my full time job, and I'm just trying to see what your guidance is.

So you're trying to get out of the job. You're trying to move out of the job that you're doing and into real estate. But we need to understand that point at which the eagle has landed. You can make that connection, especially with getting out of debt, right?

Yes.

What do you make right now about 64?

Take home.

And is it just you or your wife is working also?

No, she doesn't work. We have four little kids.

Okay. She's working in the house. So we've got 64,000.

She does harder work than I do.

I think this is a really great opportunity to replace exactly what you're making right now and beyond it. So that would kind of be my signal. Once you get to the point in real estate where you're closing enough deals to where you're meeting this same standard that your 64,000 was meeting on a monthly basis, that's a really great indication that it's time to move on.

Have you sold any houses so far?

No, I'm finishing school and in talks with the brokerage and getting things started. I'm nervous about where the line is. Should I have six months of expenses in case the market dumps? What do we do to, what's the.

Urgency to jump into real estate? Could you work the plan, get out of debt, get the emergency fund in place, and then make the transition.

Right now?

Because right now it's not like the gangbuster time to get into real estate. I don't know if you've seen the real estate market, Chris. Pros are having a hard time, and.

That'S why I want to start doing it part time, to really see if it's going to pan out. I don't have an upward slope right now. I'm just kind of stuck, and I don't really love what I do, so I'm just trying to.

What made you go? Real estate is the thing.

I love being able to work for people and help people and be that resource for them and be able to affect my own income and do what I want to do for people. And right now I work in it. I don't really have any control over my future as far as sure, but.

What you're really looking for is a commission sales job, and there's a lot of those out there. It doesn't have to be real estate. It could be traditional sales. You could be a mortgage loan officer, and there's a lot of fields. So I'm just trying to dig to go. What is it about real estate that lights you up? If there's something specific about that?

I've had the experience of walking into a house and knowing that that's my house. Right. I know this is where we're supposed to be, and I like working hard for people to do that and see that and help them get their goal. Yeah, you could go into car sales or those things. I just don't know if that's the. I don't love the idea of just commission. I want to have some purpose in what I do.

Well, let me ask questions on the other side of this. So we're talking about the work side of it. You want to have purpose in what you do. Everyone does. Like, there's a big part of that. You mentioned earlier in the conversation that you had student loan debt, credit card debt, car debt, and mortgage debt. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Because that's also going to be a major player in this equation. Like George said, housing market. It's not like you're just raking in the dough, becoming a real estate agent at this point. And right now you do have the luxury of a stable $64,000 income. I say stable with quotes around it because no job is stable. But you understand my point. And so looking at the debt that you have, I feel like debt has the ability to cloud our mind and cloud our judgment, whether we realize it or not, because debt makes every paycheck feel like, oh, I'm just getting this paycheck and I'm having to put it over here. And it especially makes it feel like that if you are in a job, that doesn't give you the juice.

Right. And so I do think that looking at this debt and getting more numbers around, that will also help us make a better decision. So how much student loan debt do you have? Kind of just walk through that line for me.

So between my wife and I, we have 40k left on our student loans. We have 10,000 on a credit card, 6000 on a car, and then the rest is house.

Okay, so $56,000 of debt making $64,000 a year. Okay, so already I'm looking at this and I'm going, there's not a whole lot of margin to pay this off super quickly.

Correct. We've been working for years wiggling it down. We started with 80,000 in student loans.

And so for that reason, starting a new job in sales, especially real estate, feels. It doesn't feel like the right move at this time. Just listening to you talk, it feels like at this time, what the better move is. What can we do? What can we lock in on that's going to bring in extra income? A lot of extra income. What is it that my wife can do? She's at home with four kiddos, which I'm going to get their ages here in a minute. But what is it that you guys can do that can allow you to tackle this debt in two years or less? That's the equation that I want to solve for first. And then when you solve that conversation and that problem, it's going to open up your mind to really see and be able to focus on what you want to do with your career long term. That's my take on it.

Yeah, that makes sense.

I would probably try to increase my income in the field I'm in as I get this mess cleaned up. And then later on down the road, we can explore the part time work when you have the margin, because right now you can't even breathe. It's hard to think about a whole new career path and have the time to do that. I'd rather you flipping burgers for a guarantee, $1015 an hour, than hoping that you can make a sale in the next year. And the other thing to think about here is there's cost to just being an agent. I mean, you've got the classes, the testing, MLS fees, the nar fees, continuing education. It's hard to be a successful part time real estate agent. There's a reason people go with the full time pros. And so my dad did this as a hobby because he loved helping people and he still does it on the side as a real estate agent. But he was an engineer by trade, and so that's great to pursue, but I wouldn't bank on it. To be the breadwinner right now, you need six months with a regular income in real estate and a stay at home spouse, you better have that emergency fund locked and loaded.

Oh, yeah. I think the conversation you have with your wife tonight is, what can we do to double our income, and how can we do that very quickly. And that's going to take both you and me making a lot of sacrifice with our time. This is the Ramsey show. What's up, guys? It's Jade Warshaw here. Now, I want you to take a moment and dream with me right quick. Imagine a life where you don't have to feel stressed about money anymore. Got it. So here's the deal. That life is possible for you, and your first step is to get on a budget. Budgeting helps you make a plan for your spending so you know that you're covered all month long. And the best way to budget is with our budgeting app, everydollar. You can get started for free right now@everydollar.com. Or download it from the App Store. That's everydollar.com. You are listening to the Ramsey show. Hey, thanks for hanging out with us. I'm Jade Warshaw. George Camel is to my right. We're going to take your calls for the rest of this hour. So if you have something that's just burning, it's sticking in your craw and you got to ask that question or.

See a doctor, depending.

Yeah. If it's really stuck in your crawl, you might need to.

That burning sensation lasts for more than an hour. Don't call us.

Not the burn. George. Hey, give us a call. The number is triple 8825-5225 and we will try to diagnose your issue only as it relates to your life and your money.

Though I've been called Dr. George.

That was a mistake. All right, let's go to the phone lines. We've got Rylan in Phoenix, Arizona. Hey, Rylan, what's going on?

Hey, guys. How are you doing?

Good. How can we.

Good, good. I have a question. I don't know if you've been keeping up to date lately, but cryptocurrency has been kind of jumping up in the last month.

Yeah, about time, man.

Yeah, I've been holding it for a while and I've been waiting for this for a little bit. So it finally happened.

What coin do you have and how much you got?

I have Ethereum, and it's gone up to. I think it's gone up to 20,000 now.

Okay.

All right.

What's your question?

So you have 20,000 worth of Ethereum?

Yeah. 20,000 worth of Ethereum.

Because it's at 3300.

Yes. Right. So I bought Ethereum a few, like, two years ago.

I want to say you have six Ethereum. In case you're doing the math at home.

Okay. Yeah. Right. So I lost my place. I apologize.

It's all good. So you have 20 grand worth of crypto?

Yes, I was going to ask. I bought a new car in 2021, and I put down 23 24,000 on it. And I still owe 17 now, so I'm at a point where I could pay it off completely and still have a few thousand left over. But my fiancee and I are discussing moving into a house and growing our family and whatnot. We already have a two year old. I know what you're going to say to that. We're not married yet, but we are going to get married.

When? Tomorrow.

It's on me. I'm so bad at planning, I could barely plan a vacation.

The really cool thing about when you go to the courthouse is you don't even have to have that much of a plan. I'm picking on you a little bit. But please get married.

Yeah, you know what? I deserve that. Yes, I know. I'm good with the courthouse. But she wants a wedding, I'm going to give her one.

You definitely should have a party. I'm not saying that you should not have a party, but if you're talking about moving in and all this. You've already got a kid, man. Just get that certificate. No one even has to know that you have the certificate. Like, just get it for legal purposes. You're all protected. And then tell all your friends we're having a wedding when the time comes. Right, but to your point. To answer your question. Yeah, man, I'm clearing out this crypto immediately. I'm paying off your smallest debt if it happens to be your car. In this case, yeah, more power, too. You'll have a paid for car. And I would not buy a house until you're married and until you have the money to afford the house, which would include not only paying off your debt, but saving up three to six months of expenses and having the property on payment.

Okay, thank you for that. What was making me nervous was that 17 grand kind of going away.

It makes me nervous that you bought a $40,000 car. How much do you make? Jade hung up. Sorry, I lost mid sentence.

Let me go back.

We'll get you back. There you are.

What do you make?

Sorry. I make 50. My fiancee makes 40.

Holy crap.

You make 50 grand a year, and you bought a $40,000 car?

I bought a $51,000 car.

Oh, my God.

Oh, my word.

Rylan, you may not do a lot of planning, but you plan to be broke.

Let me tell you guys, it's a 2.49% APR loan.

Oh, well, in that case, Rylan, you got me.

We'll never be impressed by that.

Rylan, did you get a free t shirt to go along with it from the dealership after they screwed you?

Well, it's a Tesla. So there's no dealership involved?

Oh, no, not on a Tesla.

Well, in that case, as a Tesla.

Driver, I'm telling you that was a terrible decision because I know how Teslas have gone down in value because Elon's like, you know what? Cut the price down ten grand. I don't care.

Yikes.

I agree.

What is the car worth?

Well, right now I haven't checked, but I want to keep it for the next ten years. You know what I mean?

No, I don't know what you mean.

You've committed to this car more than your relationship, dude.

How so?

You're more committed to this car than your hopefully soon to be spouse. Because if you were committed to her for the next ten years, you'd put a freaking ring on it and go to the courthouse today. But you're willing to drive a depreciating asset while telling us that you have a great interest rate on it while buying a car that's worth more than your annual income. Do you have any other debt?

I used to have 6000 in credit card, but I paid that off.

Okay. Are the cards still around? Have you cut them up yet?

Yeah, I practically cut them up.

Not practically. Come on, man.

They're either cut up, never to be seen again, or they're sitting in your freezer in a block of ice. Which one is it?

They're in my wallet. I want to say collecting dust, but that's not exactly true.

Rylan, you're making it so easy to fireshot.

What's going to happen? Is your girlfriend fiance? Is she going to.

No, no.

Don't sell. We need to buy a house. What are you doing? Don't pay off the car. Is that what's going to happen when you tell her?

Well, I already did talk to her about it, and we've been discussing it and we were thinking that maybe we'd use the money as emergency couple grand for furnishings because the APR percentage on the car is so low.

You're talking about the wrong numbers.

Oh, my God.

Let's just talk about this the way it is, Rylan. Broke people talk about interest rates on their debt. They care more about the interest rate on their debt. They care more about the monthly payment on their debt. They care about what the debt is doing for their credit score. That's how broke people talk. That's how poor people talk who don't.

Think that payments and interest rates.

Yeah, they don't think they can get ahead without borrowing money and without borrowing at whatever interest rate they talk about what we're talking about over here on this show. And what we want to teach people is that life is more than that. You can actually take your income. It's your biggest wealth building tool, and you can do amazing things with it. You can actually pay for your life in real time, and that's what we want to get you to. And I think right now, I'm not going to lie. Like shifting a mindset that takes some time, I don't expect it to happen right here in a four minute call.

But I've got just the book for you before we leave, Ryan, I will send to you in the mail. It's called breaking free from broke. And I wrote it for people like you to help them make this very difficult paradigm shift.

Yeah.

Because I used to think like you, Ryan. That's why I have a love for you. I want to change your mind so badly because I believe in you and your ability to build wealth, but it takes doing some different things. And one of those things is not buying a $51,000 Tesla when we don't even make $51,000.

Yeah. Did we tell you the rule of thumb, like, going forward? One of the ways we want to shift your mindset is going forward, we don't want whatever you earn per year, your vehicles, the things going down in value should not equal more than half of that. That's kind of a rule of thumb. That's what's fair. We also say that if you're going to purchase a brand new vehicle, you should not do that until you have a net worth of $1 million or more. Because you're able to take the hit. You're able to basically take that money that you would depreciate within those first four to five, six years and just put it in a pile and burn it. And you wouldn't even break a sweat. Like your temperature, your heart rate wouldn't raise one bit. And so that's the way we teach that. And then at the end of the day, we want people to buy vehicles in cash because we know that the car payment is what separates the middle class from the wealthy class. We know that the car payment is what makes most Americans, most people in general, broke because they're giving away such a high percentage of their biggest wealth building tool every single month in payments.

It goes like housing and mortgage, student loans, car payment. You can flip student loans and car payment depending on who you are, but those are the top. Those two debts, student loans and car payments are the things that keep people debt in debt and keep them from building wealth. And so hopefully you got that from this conversation.

A lot going on here. But, Ryan, I'll tell you know what beats a 2.49% ApR? The APR on my Tesla, which is zero, and not because I got a 0% financing deal. It's because I bought a ten year old Tesla in cash, not because it's a flex, but because I don't care what other people think. And I know this is a toy going down in value. So hang on the line. I'm going to send you a copy of my book, breaking free from Broke. Read it, give me a one page report, and I'll send you a gift in the mail.

This is the Ramsay show. You are listening to the Ramsay show calls about your life and your money. If you want us to take your call, you can call us at triple 8825-5225 and we'll hook you up with our advice, scripture and quote of the day. Romans 116 says, for I'm not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes. True that. All right. Alice Cooper said this. Drinking beer is easy. Trashing your hotel room is easy. But being a Christian, that's a tough call. That's rebellion.

Then call me America's bad boy.

Come on.

That's what's up.

That's good. I love. That's. That's very interesting. That's some food for thought there. All right, let's go to Kyle, who is in Lakehurst, New Jersey. What's going on, Kyle? How can we help?

Hey, how's it going?

Good. How can we help?

So I got a pretty controversial opinion on credit cards for you guys.

Let's go.

And just a little backstory. After listening to you guys, I realized I've been on baby step three ever since high school, never going into debt, living below my means. Now, at the age of 26, and serving in the military, I've managed to accumulate a net worth of $140,000. Here's the thing, though. I know this goes against your guys'teaching, but I actually use my credit cards for all my expenses. However, I always pay the full statement balance every month. Never carry a balance. It's always on auto pay.

Okay.

I've never paid anything in interest or fees. By doing this, I take advantage of the sign up bonuses, cash back rewards, without going out of my way to buy things I wasn't already planning on buying.

So do you want us to change your mind?

Giving me a huge boost? What's that?

Are you telling us this because you want us to change your mind or because you what?

Well, I want to hear your guys'thoughts on it because it's also giving me a huge boost on my credit score. I feel like I might be beating the system.

I think you did it, bro. Have you written a book about this yet? Start a podcast? Have you started, like, an online course? I mean, you cracked the code, dude.

If you're implying I should, then.

The.

Points guy did it, made a huge brand out of it. Now he gets paid by capital one.

I mean, here's the thing.

If your plan is working for you, you keep going. But usually people call the show because their plan is not working. And you told me you've been on Baby step three since high school. You're like a toddler with stunted growth, man. What happened? If your plan was working so well, why are you not a net worth millionaire with a paid for house?

Well, I'm working on it. I'm definitely trying.

But you're telling me that your use of credit cards will accelerate that process, right?

Yes, but I've heard a lot of bad opinions about it on this show, and I was wondering if you guys know something I don't. Or maybe here's the difference.

We're not financial prodigies. We're fallible humans who realize that psychology plays a huge part in how we spend our money.

Here's the difference. Number one, we probably disagree on philosophy around money, which is fine. But the difference is, if I go into a gym and I talk to a trainer, where most people go to a gym and talk to a trainer when they need help, and I walk in and go, look, dude, I'm swole. Look at me. I'm ripped. I can already bench press. This much I can already do, then I'm looking at it. I'm going, great. Keep doing it. Like, keep doing your thing. Why are you talking to me? And so part of me is wondering, do you want help, or do you want to just tell us how awesome your thing is? If you truly want us to change your mind, we can talk about that. But at the end of the day, our philosophies are totally different. You're living in a world where you're caring about your credit score. You love utilizing and leveraging debt, and you're a grown man. You can do that all day. But we live in a world where we say exactly the opposite. And if you really do want to sit and kind of, like, tit for tatted and kind of say you think this here's what we think and kind of play the fence on it.

We can do that, but I don't think that's what you want. Unless that is what you. I mean, do you want to be swayed in the other direction, or do you want to convince us why you're right?

Do this?

Absolutely. I'm completely open to constructive criticism.

Okay.

If there is an argument against it, absolutely.

Let's play it out with your own situation.

Let's just play it out.

I truly want to help you. As fun as it is to have a friendly debate. What do you make a year?

I don't know how much it adds up to in a year, but I bring home 5300 a month.

That's your take home pay after taxes?

Yes.

5300 a month. Okay, good. All right.

And so you bring home $63,000 a year. How much of that have you put away for investing in savings every year?

My living expenses, including, like, just anything. I need all the essentials. I only pay, like, $1,500 a month. Everything else just goes into investments.

What kind of investments?

More than half my paycheck into investments.

So you're investing, like, 60% of your check into investments every month.

So $3,800 goes to investments. What investment is that and what account?

So I have etfs on, like, Charles Schwab. I also have a 401. I do the matching 5%, no more than that.

Do you own a home?

Yeah, the rest of it just goes into my etfs.

Okay, but you told us you don't have an emergency fund.

Yeah, well, I do keep, like, an extra ten k in my savings account.

Okay.

And that just sits there. I don't touch it.

Do you own a home?

I do not. That was going to be another question, but I didn't want to take up too much time.

Do you have any debt?

I do not. Well, aside from the credit cards, but I don't carry a balance.

Okay, so here's the truth. The wealth that you've accumulated has nothing to do with credit cards, Kyle. It has everything to do with your ability to flex your savings muscle and put away 60% of your income and live on less than you make.

Yeah.

So you're much more aligned to us than you think. And I walk through. You're the character in the book breaking free from broke that I wrote on the credit cards chapter. I walk through the eight character archetypes. You are what I consider the perfect spender. And you said the quote.

Wow.

I said the reason I pay off my card on time and in full every month. I never pay a dime in interest. I treat it just like a debit card. And here's the thing. Even if you pay it off perfectly, every study shows that you spend more when you use a credit card. So you're in the majority. 48% of people statistically pay off their card every month. So you're in the 48%. But here's the deal. Researchers from MIT did a study in 2021. They used MRI technology, and they looked at brain activity when people were swiping that card. And so this is what's wild. We've already proven that credit cards reduce the pain of payment. But this study added another layer. Not only do credit cards release the brakes on spending, they also cause our brain to step on the gas, accelerating the spending. And so when it hurts less, it costs more. And I'm telling you, when you spend your own money, even though you tell me you treat it just like cash or debit card, I'm telling you it causes more pain than using someone else's money and paying it back later. And so I think you'd be doing even better.

I think you're giving too much credit to credit cards, and I think you need to give yourself more credit, that you're really, in many ways, you're really great at handling your money. And like, to George's point, credit cards are really just holding you back. You've proven that you have the restraint and you have the foresight to go, I could save 50, 60% of my income. That's a muscle a lot of people and a discipline that a lot of people don't have. And so I think that credit cards are really a dead weight in your plan.

And when you look at the rewards, I mean, most of these are 2% cash back, of course.

Yeah.

And then you got the airline miles.

But they add up.

Sure, but it adds up. If you're making 60k take home, you might be getting 1000 in rewards. Yeah, that doesn't add up to much when it comes to wealth building.

I'll farm the sign up bonuses. So if I plan on buying a computer, if it's like a purchase I'm already planning on making, I'll find a credit card that will give me a sign up bonus. I'll utilize that, like $1,000 it wants me to spend and earn $100 back.

And you can play that game, and I'm telling you, you can do that, and you'll be successful at it, and you will be the rat in the maze for these credit card companies. And I interviewed someone from Capital one, an ex manager who said they run 10,000 experiments on consumers like you to get you to chase the cheese in the maze and think you won, and they zoom out and you go, oh, my gosh, I'm a rat in their maze playing their game. And think about how many brain calories you've spent.

That's my thing, George.

You are spending a lot of brain calories for a smart, successful man serving our country. Too much time and energy putting into maximizing. You'd be better off starting a business, a side hustle, and putting your time and energy into that instead of helping capital one sponsor the next Taylor Swift tour. So I'm going to send you a copy of breaking free from Broke read the credit cards chapter, and I hope it helps you see our side of the picture. So hang on the line. Taylor will get you a copy of that in the mail. Thank you for your service. Truly. It was fun sparring with you.

That was fun. I just like. I value simplicity in life, George. I like being able to sleep easily at night. I love what you said about brain calories.

I got one card in my wallet, Jade, and it's got money on it. It's amazing how that works.

Is the Ramsey show.

Rath matters for your organization because whatever you lead can only grow, grow as much as you do. I know from experience. I've been CEO of Ramsay Solutions for over 30 years. And now I'm sharing that leadership and business coaching experience with you. On the entree leadership podcast, I'm taking your calls and helping you figure out how to overcome challenges within your organization. One episode could change your business. Check it out on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or on the Ramsay Network app.