Live from On the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, this is the Ramsey Show. It's where we help you win in your life. Three areas: win with your money, win at work, and win in your relationship. Ships. That is the game, and you can crush it. 888-825, 5225, 888-825, 5225. I'm Ken Coleman, joined by the fabulous, The Incomparable Jade Warshaw. Now I'm turning into a boxing announcement. A game show host. Yeah. And always fun. We love being together. Jade's going to help you on the money issues. I'll weigh in, and I'll dive in on the income, and she'll help out on that as well. So that's what we're talking about. More Income, Getting rid of Debt. We have a great group of people, fabulous-looking group of people out in the lobby today watching. You could come watch the show anytime that we're on. So go to ramsey solutions. Com. Look at the schedule. We'd love to see you. Come out and say hi during the breaks all that jazz. It's always good to have folks staring at us like we're zoo animals. That's fun.

Speak for yourself, Ken.

Yeah. Well, there's some lovely zoo animals. I would put you as a peacock, maybe. Okay. I'll take that. You okay with that one?

I'll take a peacock.

Don't tell me what I am. I'm afraid I won't be able to handle it. Here we go. Emmanuel or Manuel? I never know. Manuel. I say Manuel. Let's see. St. Louis, Missouri. What say you?

It's Emmanuel. It's Emmanuel, but I'll say Manuel.

All right. No, we got to call you by your name, Manuel. How can we help?

Hi. I'm about to graduate from college with a degree in mechanical engineering in about a year. Nice. But my dream career is to be a prosthetist, and you have to go to grad school for three years. That's going to be about $160,000. Plus, there's only eight schools in America that have it. The closest one to me is Chicago. Okay. So far, I've cash flowed all of college. I want to cash flow grad school, but that's going to take six years, I assume, to save up all that money. I didn't know if it would be best to just go ahead and take out a loan and pay it off later when I get my career or to go ahead, work as an engineer, save up money. But I don't know where I'll be in life in a few years. That option. I don't know if it'll be like, yeah.

Let's break that down. Jade and I, we want you to go with no loan. Let's start to map this out so it doesn't feel like you're placing your life on hold. Because can we be honest? That's the emotion, and I get it. Oh, six years. All right, quick question.

Did you say 160,000?

160. Now, here's my question.

You said there were only- It'll be $90,000 each year.

Okay. You said there were only eight schools in America that offered this particular degree, grad-level degree, correct?

Yeah.

That's how I found my research. Is 160 the high, low, or medium of the eight prices?

It seems about like the medium, like the regular price.

What's the lowest price? I'm curious.

I actually don't know that right off. I'd find out. I'm just going to every school I look to you.

I'd find out. Let me tell you why. The good people that you're going to be putting prosthetics on or designing prosthetics for, and the people that will hire you, do not care which school you go to. Do you agree or disagree with that statement? I'm fine with whatever.

Agree.

No, agree. All right, definitely agree. Homework assignment number one, Jade. I want Manuel finding out what the lowest priced school is. Let's say it's 100 for sake of discussion. Now, all of a sudden, if I'm doing the math right now, I always have to have Jade help me because normally I have to take my shoes off to do math.

100 divided by 2, Ken.

But the point is that you've got a six-year timeline for the 160 price. You're looking at it going, for me to save cash, it's going to take me six years. I'm trying to get you in a mental process by which you start to go, Wait a second. I am not limited, and I'm not putting myself on hold. So practically, what we're doing right now, Manuel, is we're going, All right, I need to find out what the lowest school is. Let's say for sake of discussion, it's 100 grand. How does that... Let's play this game out. How does that change that timeline from six years to, what do you think? Off the cuff.

I don't know, maybe three, maybe four.

I agree with that. By the way, we're not holding you to these numbers. We're just working the exercise that you need to do after the call. Now we've shaved off years, right? Let's not forget, we shaved off lots of dollars, and you're going to be making really good money as an engineer. Now, I have one other question, and I want Jade to weigh in here. The other question I have is, is it possible to work your way into this role, not educate your way into this role? What I mean by that is, if you start out in engineering and you make your way into that industry, and maybe there's a level or two below the designing of the prosthetics or whatever you describe, could it be possible that you work your way into that? Or is it only way When is the master's, the grad degree?

From everything I've read, it's the only way you understand a master's. All right, I'm going to challenge you. Let me challenge you.

There's a lot of things I've read, and I think I'm right. Then I meet somebody who's actually experienced it and actually knows. That's homework assignment number two, right? I want to know by talking to somebody in the field who hires people in the field who's working in the field, is it the only way that I get that job by getting the grad I think you get that answer in the answer to the first homework assignment, which is what's the lowest cost school of the eight? Jade, why is it so important that he be patient and wait three years, four years to save up? Why do we have that stance?

Well, I'm looking at a couple of things here. I'm really interested in where the lower price range schools are. I wish I knew that number. Because that dictates a lot for us. But I think that, to Ken's point, while you are where you're at, what will you be earning as a mechanical engineer? Out of the gate.

Right now. I'm currently at an internship, and I rolled over to a career, and so I'm not sure what the price is. But I think I've heard a lot of it's around $40,000 as the first year income.

First year income as a mechanical engineer?

I don't know. I think it's- Right after graduation.

Okay. I heard it could fluctuate depending where you are, but that's because I'm at a startup now.

Okay. I I just think that you need to do a lot more research. I'm not faulting you on this because you've been focused on your education, but I want to turn a lot more of those I don't know's or I think's or I'm not sure. I want those to become way more definite because where you work and the amount of income that you're able to earn and knowing where you're going to go next is a huge informative piece of this puzzle. If you find out, Hey, there's mechanical engineer jobs in Denver that pay twice as much as the ones that are over here in New Mexico. You know what I'm saying? And then you find out, Oh, and by the way, that least expensive program is also in Colorado just a couple of minutes outside of town. You might find some things that really inform the choices that you make next. You're really in research mode. That's where you're at right now, is research mode. Then the mindset simply has to be like Ken said, No matter what I do, debt is not an option. Maybe you're calling those places up and you're saying, Hey, I've got this I agree.

I've been working in this field for the last year and a half. I'm so interested in working my way into prosthetics. What can that look like? Is there a program? Is there a fellowship? Is there an internship? How can I do this to where you guys are going to fund part of this or all of this? Ask questions.

Man, I'll just leave you with this. I want you to go watch our documentary Bar of Future because there's a dentist that's featured in that powerful documentary, and you just need to get his story. Because if he could get a hold of you, he'd go, It is not worth all the debt on the back end. Even though you're doing the thing and you're making good money, you do not want to be stuck with all that debt and resent the very thing that you feel you're supposed to do with your life. You're going to do good stuff. Thank you so much for the call. Excited about your future. Man, you're home. Don't take the debt. It's never worth it. This is the Ramsey Show. When families were asked how long it would be before they faced financial hardship, if a spouse died, nearly one-third said they'd in trouble immediately. This is why I talk about getting term life insurance coverage from Xander Insurance. They're committed to protecting families with only the products I recommend, plus their team keeps the entire process simple and affordable. Go to Xander. Com for quick online pricing or call 800-356-4282. Your family has to be the top priority.

Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm Ken Coleman. Jade Warshaw joins me this hour, and we are here for you, America. 888-825-5225. Dallas, Texas, is where we go next. Our Janice is on the line. Our Janice, how can we help?

Hey, how are you guys? First of all, I'm really excited to be on the show. My first time I have a bit of a different question for you guys.

A different question? Here we go, Mary. I'm ready.

My question is, how can I budget to have fun? The reason why I'm asking is because a lot of my family is dispersed in different parts of the world. I always have to find a way to budget, to travel and go visit, and connect back with my family. To me, it's very important to make memories. Luckily, I never opened up any credit cards. I don't have any debt. I have a house paid off that I'm renting at the moment. I'm actually working on renting out another RV that I have. So how can I also just budget so that I can go out and just spend my money in some fun?

That's cool. Hey, it sounds like you've done a great job with your financial situation. You don't have any debt. Did you say you have a paid-off house, but you're renting it out?

Yes.

Awesome. And then you've got an RV that you're renting out. Where are you living?

I'm actually renting a house.

A second house?

Yes.

Okay. Interesting. Tell me a little bit about how much income you're bringing in every month.

I'm bringing, just for my job, it's about 4,000 a month. Then with the rental, it's another 1,200. Once I get the RV rented out, I'm planning on renting it out for another 750 a month.

Okay. How long will you be able to rent that RV out at 750 because it's going down in value, and is the RV completely paid off?

Yes, the RV is completely paid off. I just would rent it as long as I possibly can or eventually sell it. But for now, I'm looking to just get some money out of it and just rent it out. What do you pay in rent for yourself? I pay a thousand in rent.

A thousand. Okay, interesting. You asked one question, but I can't help but pull a thread of another one. It is interesting to me that you are operating a rental and you're renting for a $200 spread?

Yes. Eventually, my plan was that I was going to live in it, but the rent It's just been increasing more and more in Texas. I originally am from New Jersey. I moved from New Jersey to get away from all the expenses and stuff, and I came here. So everything started to increase here. So I was like, Well, if I just live in it, I mean, I won't really pay anything, but I was like, maybe I can get some money out of it. I'll be honest with you, I don't have any kids. I don't have, I guess, major huge responsibilities in my life right now.

But the rental is not where you live. How far away is it from where you live?

The rental is 20 minutes from where I live.

Okay. Let me keep myself on track. Let me just give you a piece of advice that you didn't ask for. If I were you, I would not be renting. I'd live in the house that you own because it's not worth… When you said it, you were right. Rent is going up. So you're charging more, but you're also paying more. That's why you're never making a spread on it. If I were you, I would live in the house that I own. If you want to do rental property, I would save up because, like you said, you don't have any debt. Then I would save up until you can buy another piece of real estate in cash and do it that way. I think you're going to get where you want to go a lot quicker that way. Okay. Now, let's talk about- The reason- Go ahead.

I'm sorry. The reason why I originally got a rental was because it was a whole mix of between a family thing going on with the property at first. I rented to get out of that situation.

But you own the house?

Yes, right. But it was a whole sentimental thing, having family come over and can I live in it and things like that.

So you have family renting the house?

Yes.

Right now, still?

Yeah. I'm sorry?

Still?

No, not anymore. That's what I thought. That's what I thought. That's what I thought. That's what I thought. That's what I thought. That's what I thought. That's what I thought.

That's what I thought. We appreciate the reason, but the advice is still correct.

Jay is right. It doesn't change what I think that you should do, and I get that I'm just a radio person that you called into. Let's get to the crux of what you want to do, which is you want to travel more. You're on the right track. You have to put in the budget. This is just a matter of you getting very detailed on what that looks like. Where are you traveling to? How often are you trying to travel? And really being detailed on what it's actually going to be costing and letting those items be reflected in your line items. If you're saying, All right, where's one place that you have family?

I can give you an example. Last about two years, I think it's been two years already, I met up with my uncle. We actually went to the World Cup in Qatar together. That's one place that we travel to. He happens to live in Romania, and then his brother, which is my uncle, lives in Spain. Then I have a family in Mexico. It's between Europe, Mexico, and those areas. But it's.

When you went to Qatar, what was the problem, or was there a problem? I'm guessing that you budgeted to go because you said you don't have any debt. Tell me where the problem lies.

The problem is I also have this thing where it hurts me when I have to start taking money out of my account. For some reason, it bothers me. I got to a point in my life where even though I know I have a good emergency fund and my checking account is still good, it starts to bother me when it goes down.

It might feel a little excessive. Here's what you have to decide the tension between. You said that it's important for you to see your family, but we also know that your family, it sounds like, is spread across continents and countries. When you're making $4,000 a month, I'm just going to be honest with you, it can feel excessive if you're going to Spain and Mexico and Romania and Europe and Qatar. There is a part of that that even if you're making it work, there's probably a part of you that's like, Hey, can this money be better spent elsewhere? And that's where you are going to have to go, Okay, the opportunity cost of this is what? If I'm going to Qatar, if I'm going to Romania, if I'm going to Mexico, is that keeping me from investing? Because are you currently investing 15% of your income?

I'm not really. There you have it. I do that stuff, but it's not really a thing that is working out for me.

Okay. I think that's what you're I think you're feeling the tension of, Okay, there's things that I want to do, but I'm doing them at the expense of other things that I really need to be doing, right? So the way we teach is you're already in a great spot. You have No debt. Do you have any money saved? Not retirement, but just a saved emergency fund?

Yes, I do have some money saved. How much? I have about 12 grand right now.

Okay, great. So you might bump that up a little bit since you're a single guy, try to get it to six months of expenses. But then I think what's happening is you're not investing. We would suggest that at this point, you're investing 15% of your income every single month, every time you get a check. I think once you start doing those things, you're going to go, Okay, when I have extra, it truly is extra. I'm taking care of the things I'm supposed to take care of. Then it's reasonable for you to think, Okay, I'm a single guy. I don't have a lot of attachment. Are there two trips that I plan a year?

Yeah, and this is pretty simple. You need to reset your expectations. You just don't have a lot of margin. I think you said your rent was 1,000, you make 4,000. That's too high. We've already told you what to do there. Run the baby steps out. After you do everything that Jay told you, it's back to the line item in the budget. I'm making this up. $150 a month that I could put towards the... We used to have an envelope called the blow envelope. When Dave first started to teach it, it was like blow money, fund money. That's how you started the call. Here's the deal. I'm going to save up $150 a month because that's what I can do after I take care of business. Here's the other thing. I would sell the RV and get what money you can for that now. It doesn't make a lot of sense. Let's say it's worth 15. I'd go ahead and get the 15 cash, and I'd start applying that to the baby steps. I also want to challenge you to make more money in four grand a month. More income. If I got to take on a side hustle, and all of a sudden that side hustle is my travel fund, fantastic.

But I think it's very simple. Real expectations based on your income and then some discipline, and I think you're a disciplined guy, but I think there's some strategies that you can take to bring in more income and not be putting money into things like renting when you own a home and an RV. It's a depreciating asset. I'd sell it now. But thanks for the call.

He's trying to do the most. He's trying to do everything.

Yeah, I'd rather travel. Got to scale it back. If it were me, I'd rather travel. Yeah, scale it back. So there you go. Thanks for the call, our Janice. Appreciate you. This is the Ramsey Show. Quick break. We're coming right back. Don't move. How does an extra $1,200 in your bank account sound? Well, that's exactly what the US Concealed Carry Association is giving away. You can enter for your chance to win $1,200 by visiting uscca. Com/ Dave. Plus, get one of their most popular resources, the Concealed Carry and Family Defense Guide, 100% free. The guide helps you better protect yourself and your family. Inside, you'll learn ways to spot attackers before they strike, equipment and Training Basics, and a whole lot more. Claim yours and enter to win $1,200 by visiting uscca.

Com/dave right now.

Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. Thrilled to have you with us, 888-825. 55225 is the phone number. That's 888-825-5225. If you're new to us, and boy, we hear about this all the time, new people coming in all the time, YouTube podcast, first of all, welcome. We're thrilled you're here. This is a safe place. I'm telling you, when you talk about money, when you talk about your work, your income, you talk about your relationships, it's very vulnerable. I just want you to know that we're here to help you as a caller. You aren't a prop. You are the reason we do the show, and you represent millions of people who can connect to you. I just wanted to say that if you're new, welcome, but feel safe. That phone number is for you, and we want to help you win. Jade Warshaw is alongside of me. I'm Ken Coleman. We're your friends. I promise. 888-825-5225. All right, up north we go. New Haven, Connecticut. That's where Chris is waiting. Chris, how can we help?

Hey, thanks for taking my call.

How are you doing? We're having a blast. What's going on?

Work question for you. Hoping you can help me out. Okay. Love my job. Absolutely love it. Been there for about two years. Work for a very big company. You can see where I'm going here. I've heard stories about this all the time, but I was hoping it would never happen to me, is that everyone loves my work, everyone loves what I do. I have no problems with the people I work with at all. But it was promised a promotion at my most recent review. It's not like I was begging for one. It was discussed heavily. Well, it's been quite a few months, and it still hasn't happened yet. I absolutely love what I do, but how do I be a little more aggressive in pushing for that without burning bridges?

Sure. All right, let's go back. You said you weren't begging for it. Did you bring it up or did your leader bring it up in the review, this idea of- My leader did, initially. Interesting.

Did they give you a timeline? No.

Did they discuss any comp?

They discussed a potential increase, what the potential increase would be.

I got to tell you, I love Jay's question. If you combine it with no details at all on timeline, what it looks like, I feel like maybe this was a carrot. I think you're doing a really good job, and I think this leader is probably an inexperienced leader. I'm not going to project anything more negative than that, but I think that's an immature move. It feels like, whether it was intentional or not, it feels manipulative in the form of they're dangling a carrot. For people that are really young, you never heard that analogy. That's the idea of the old cartoons. They would tease Bugs Bunny or whatever with a carrot and a stick and just hold it out Just far enough that he couldn't get it to keep him moving. That's the idea. Chris, you resonated with that when I said it, correct?

Yeah.

Okay. Now, let's go back for a second. You said that you weren't begging for it. Had you I had this annual review and the boss says, Hey, we love you, love what you're doing. Great job. Keep it up. We feel like if you keep it up, you've got some real growth here. Had they left it at that, how would you walk away from that meeting as opposed to expecting a promotion soon? How would that be different?

Pretty good.

You'd have been fine? Yeah. Now, here's what you got to do. You got an immature leadership move. Now, you have to be mature. I'm talking mindset first. I'm going to tell you practically what I would do in a second. But I want to make sure you now have to hold serve and go, That was an immature move. I got to be mature. Does that make sense? Absolutely. That's why I'm going back to reframe it. You would have been fine. You'd just been, Man, I'm really enjoying this. Now, everybody wants to progress. Every human wants to know, Where do I stand now and do I have an opportunity to progress? Now this has been dangled. It hasn't happened. What I would do is I would set up a meeting and I would go back in and say, Hey, At my annual, this is what was said, and it got my brain going. Now, I want to give some ownership to the boss, but I'm going to be humble with this. It got my brain going, and we haven't talked about it since. I started going, You know what? What would a growth plan look like? I want to come back to you and go, Hey, in the annual, we didn't really talk about maybe some areas where you think that I can grow some skills, maybe some tools I can add to my tool belt.

Make this about humble and hungry here and go, What do you think? I'd love to see some more feedback on that. Then, Hey, is there a timeline? How is that timeline affected by my performance? Because you got me excited. We're going to put it back in their plate with some humility, and here's why we're doing that. We're going to find out really quick whether that was truly a carrot. We're going to give that leader actually a little bit of what I'm going to call positive pressure to come up with a plan, but you're going to put it in their lap. They get to develop the plan, and we want to measure it. When I create a personal growth plan, that they help Map out, and it's tied to performance, and the performance is tied to income and promotion, now we got ourselves a plan. That's the best way to ask for a raise. Never ask for a raise. But in this situation, it's not as simple as the raise. That's how I would go about it. I'd love to know what Jade thinks. How would you go about it? What would you do?

I think you're right, Ken. What was formulating in my mind, and it might be the question that Chris has or maybe somebody listening, is if you are in a position and you have outperformed your position to the point where you can be talking about a raise, what's a fair time frame for you to see that play out in the form of an actual income increase? Because Chris might go and follow your instruction, and the guy be like, Okay, yeah, and they create a roadmap or a rally plan around this. But what's a fair timeline to watch that shake out?

Yeah, it's a good question. I'll answer it. But Chris, question, did you get any annual bump? We know in corporate America, your typical bump on an annual raise, and usually it's tied to your annual, is a 3-4% bump. Did you get any annual bump? I did. What did you get?

3%.

Okay, so that falls within the averages. This was not about the raise in this case. It was like, you're in line for a promotion, and then there's just been crickets. To answer your question for Chris, always your baseline for a raise discussion is usually at your annual. Then outside of that, that's where I want to be developing a plan to where I'm not just relying on the annual 3%, and I call it a growth plan. I always want to sit with my leader and go, and I do it here because we're straight commission.

Even with that, what's the time frame on that?

I don't think there is. That's too formulaic. I think it is based on if I'm talking to my leader, and we're talking healthy here, and the leader is going, I see you're a performance guy. Let's lay out a path for growth. If I hit these numbers, then I get this. That becomes its own timeline, if that makes sense. I see. Yeah. But Chris, let's let you step in here. We told you what we thought. You any more questions? Does that help? You have more questions? What's going on in your head?

I think it's all good. I'm willing to work with them. Let's just say that. But I don't want to, again, like you said, be waiting too long.

Well, you know what's going on? This dangling of the carrot has created a potential for resentment.

Yeah, it went his whistle, and now he's like, Let's go.

You get it. I would do it the way that... Because here's what we're going to do. If you do what I told you to do, we're going to find out real quick if they meant it. Right now, I think you and I and Jade are going, There's a possibility they meant it, and they're busy, and they've got distracted, or maybe the circumstance has changed, and they just haven't been good at communicating. I think you need to get to the bottom of it so that you now have proper expectations. That keeps us from being resentful. Does that make sense?

Absolutely.

All right, my man. Hang in there, but go after it. Listen, let me tell you this. I wrote this in my first book, The Proximity Principle. It was about connecting and turning connections and opportunities, but it's true in this situation, This is a good reminder for people. You're not the only person your boss leads. There's a guy I used to work for who used to tell me this. I don't know where he got it, but he said, Nothing's moved unless it's shoved. Sometimes you got to shove your leader a little bit because you're not the only person they're thinking about. They didn't wake up this morning, and while they're getting ready for work, they didn't go, I got to think about Chris's comp plan and how I'm going to promote him today. They're just not. You got to stay in front of them a little bit, and there's an art to that. What say you about that?

I think that's exactly right. I think sometimes- You know what I'm talking about. I think sometimes it's a little bit of a test to see how bad do you want it, and are you going to go get it and make it happen?

Push forward. There's a respectful push. 100%. It's basically Hey, get in front of your leader and be like, Hey, remember when you said that thing?

Hey, I want to play.

Listen, there were times where I got in the game only because I said, Hey, Coach, I'm ready to get back in. Put me in, Coach. And he was like, Oh, yeah, Coleman. All right, get back in. That guy's coaching the game. I got to tell him, I want to go in, Coach. This is the Ramsey Show. Guys, it's no secret that the real estate market is weird right now, so go with a mortgage company you can trust to have your back. Churchill Mortgage. Churchill is Ramsey trusted because they're stable, reliable, and focused on you. At a time when a lot of companies are being bought out or going out of business, count on Churchill Mortgage to stick around. They've been doing things the right way for over 30 years, and they'll keep doing them the right way for 30 more. Get started at churchillmortgage. Com. This is a paid advertisement. Nlls ID 1591, NLLS consumeraccess. Org, Equal Housing Lender. 1749 Mallory Lane, Suite 100. Brentwood, Tennessee, 37027. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. So thrilled to have you with us. I'm Ken Coleman, and Jade Warshaw is with me as well. We're here for you, America, 888-825-5225.

Now, the board says on Line 4 that Jim from Scranton, Pennsylvania, is on the line. You know what I'm thinking.

Come on, Michael Scott.

It's all I can think about is Dunder Mifflin.

I'm hearing the theme song in my head right now.

All right, let's see what this is all about. Jim, you're on the Ramsey show. How can we help?

Hi, Ken. Hi, Jade. I had a question about a vehicle loan. What's up? I have my emergency fund saved. I have six months' expenses saved. It's a debt. The only debt that I have is my mortgage and this vehicle loan.

Okay.

My question is, I'm fortunate enough that my job provides a pension. I have a pension for a retirement. Okay. I also I am involved in a deferred compensation program with that.

Okay, that's great.

Separately, I have a Roth IRA that I no longer contribute to.

Okay.

My question is, That Roth, should I cash that and pay off my vehicle, my truck?

No, I would not do that. But I do wonder why you have a Roth IRA that you no longer contribute to, because if you have a pension, we would still say that you're investing a certain percentage into separate retirement funds, and a Roth IRA would be a perfect place to start.

Sure. I do have a separate one. The Roth that I was talking about, I was actually in charge of and I was managing. I changed that to what we call a deferred compensation. I do have money coming out into a separate retirement account. It's just that this particular Their lot is no longer receiving any contributions.

Okay. The deferred compensation, where is it going? What's it going into?

I believe it's a pre-tax account, and it's managed by a third party. It's obviously not managed by me.

Okay. Are you choosing the investments?

No.

Okay. Back to what I said, and I'll get to the the rest of the question, but this is really important for you and anybody else listening. When you have something like a pension or a deferred compensation, that's great. But because you're not in control of it, the pension, obviously, there's a huge portion of that that you're not in control of. If you die, that money dies with you. That's thing one. Thing two with the deferred compensation, it's great that you're having money put aside. But again, you're not in control of the investments, therefore you're not in control or you have even less control of the rate of return that takes place. The way we teach here is that if you've got that going on, there's nothing wrong with that, but you should not count that as 15% of your monthly salary going to your 401(k). Here's why, and those are the two reasons I just laid out because you don't have control of it. Let's say if you had an estimate overall, what percentage of your income is going into the pension and what percentage of your income is going into the deferred plan?

The deferred I have is Okay. The pension is basically a set amount depending upon your yearly salary.

And are they taking it from your salary or it's just them putting that money aside for you?

That, I'm not Sure.

Okay, let's find out about that because if it's just them putting money aside for you, then I would count that as 0% when it comes to your 15% that's being invested. And as far as this deferred thing, I'd probably count that for about half because you're not in control of it at all. Let's say that 10% count that as 5%, and now we still need to do another 10% of investing into plans that you have control over. You're choosing the investments. That's why that Roth IRA is still a good place to keep putting money into. For that reason, I would not withdraw money from that. Even if that wasn't the case, by the way, I still wouldn't pull money out of a retirement government vehicle to pay off a car loan. Is that fair enough?

Yeah, that 10%, and maybe that was a little confusing, that 10% is managed by a financial advisor, and they are invested.

Right, but it sounds like you don't have any say in the matter. It's just, Hey, this guy, we give him this money, and he does XYZ with it, right?

Correct. So you get to pick either aggressive, conservative, and you can either set amount or you could do a set percentile of your pay.

Yeah. I mean, I get what it is, and my ideals on that remain the same.

Okay.

I know I answered part of your question What was the other part? Because you mentioned a car.

Correct. That rock that I was no longer contributing to. I could pay off my vehicle with With that Roth that I was not contributing to.

Well, what do you owe on the car?

Eighteen.

Okay. What do you earn every month?

Trying to break it down monthly. Roughly around $10,000.

Okay.

Is that your primary car?

I have three vehicles. Okay. But yes, my family has three vehicles, I should say. My wife has one, and then my daughter has a vehicle. But my truck is the only thing that I have a loan on.

What's the payment on it?

I think it's 500. I do like 550 a month just to try to pay it off ahead of time.

I would just keep working that pain to pay it off.

Just pay it off. There's no reason for you to borrow from the Roth for all the reasons and hit yourself. Just get it done. It feels like you're trying to fast forward something that you regret, which I get. But in this case, that's not a good strategy. The only strategy right now is to either sell it and you get something cheaper if you've got equity in it, or just go ahead and pay it off. You got good income. Yeah.

I can afford the truck, and I don't want to sell it.

What's your hesitation?

Well, I thought I would just, which I'm not going to do now, but I thought I would just drain the rot. I have that deferred comp, and I have my pension, and then obviously I would start working on my mortgage.

I love that you're mad at it, but there's a couple of strategies on how to be mad, right? Yeah. The way you propose is like throwing a tantrum. It doesn't help anybody, versus getting focused to knock this out. That's the point.

Let's put it in perspective, because I always have a handy dandy investment calculator here. I want to know, how much is in that Roth right now?

It's 18,000.

It's exactly 18,000.

Yeah, depending on the market, depending on that day, yeah.

Okay, so that's probably one reason it's tempting. If you don't mind me asking, how How old are you, Jim? I'm 38. Okay, you're 38. Let's just pretend that you decide to retire when you're 68, okay? What would happen if we left that money alone, that 18,000, alone We invest it for the next 30 years, and it compounds annually at about 8%. That's fair, right? 8%? I would say you want accounts that do 10%, but for the haters, let's say 8%, and let's say you Don't add anything else to it. You just leave it alone. At the end of that term, that's going to be $181,000.

Yeah. Just let it go and.

Let it go. There it is.

Yeah, let it go. You got to let it go and let it grow. I don't think that in the moment it feels worth it to you to say, Let me just take that money and pay off this payment. But when you really think of what it could be if you just sit it there and let it grow, you're going to have almost $200,000, and you didn't touch it as opposed to pulling it out now. Just use your own income, pay off this car. I can't emphasize enough what I said earlier about your investments, especially now that you revealed that you've got a daughter and a wife. That pension is great. It's great that they're offering that, but that dies with you. You've got to be investing in other places, and you've got to be investing 15% of your income. Very, very important.

Yeah. I mean, I do have a life insurance policy. I don't know if you want to call hedge that, but if something were to happen to me, I do have a term life insurance policy.

Okay, good. It's term. All right, great. Yeah, term is absolutely It's hard. But you got the plan. Yeah, of course.

You got the plan. Yeah, okay. Listen, I'm trying to help folks out. I want to make sure he's okay because your retirement is not just for what happens after you die. It's for your family. It's for you to live. It's for you to A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, and that's what we want to get to.

Good hour, Jade Warshaw. Thank you, James Childs and the crew. Thank you, America. This is the Ramsey Show. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, this is the Ramsey Show. It's where we help you win in your life, winning with your money, winning in your work, and winning with your relationships. 888-825-5225 is the phone number for you to jump in. It's your show. Jade Warshaw is with me. I'm Ken Coleman, and we love taking your questions. So let's get going. Samantha is going to kick this hour off. From the Big Apple, Samantha, how can we help?

Hi, Ken. Hi, Jade. Excited to be here. High level. We just found out we are expecting our second baby in three years. Yay.

It's fun.

Very exciting, but we have our hands full. I work full-time. My husband works full-time owning his own business, and he has broached the topic of me possibly stopping working or reducing to part-time. I'm not really sure how I feel about it. I don't know if I'm ready to give up working.

I don't think you are. I don't know if you are. Let's stop right there for a second. We'll get to the rest of your question, but I got to tell you, we got a working beside me, and I'm anxious to dive right into this because by the way you said that, I think you're leaning more towards, No, I want to keep working. Am I right? Tell us your real raw feeling when he brought that up to you.

I mean, there's a part of me that definitely is intrigued by it. I mean, who doesn't want to be home with their kids all the time? Me.

And me. True. Listen, I love them, but I like a break.

Me, too. I have a very flexible job. I really like what I do. I like the people I work with, and I'm home most of the time anyway. I'm pretty much fully remote.

Well, why don't you try it? Then if you start having feelings that are like, Oh, man, I feel like I want to be home more, then you can adjust. Why do you feel that you have to make this decision before the baby is even here?

I don't know. I think it's just more of it's come up a few times, and I don't know, it got me thinking, and I just- Why does he want you to stay home?

What's his reasoning behind it? Is it a cost thing? Is it a nurturing thing? What are his talking points, per se?

I think probably more towards the nurturing side. I don't think it's a financial thing. We definitely could afford for me to not work. Okay. How flexibly. I think it's just more…

How flexible is flexible? When you said your job is flexible and you're homeless anyway, what does that mean? Describe flexible.

I'm in the office two days a week, but my boss is very flexible. He's got three kids of his own, so he gets it. If you can't be in this week, you can't be in this week. I haven't been in since early December. It's mid-February now. It's definitely flexible. The days that I am out of the house, they're long days. I have a far commute, a commute into the city, so it could be a 15, 16-hour day, but it's two days a week for the most part.

I've got a follow-up question. What does the flexible look like when I'm home? When you're three days at home, what free time or control of your time do you have?

Pretty much complete control. If I need to step away for an hour, for two hours, if I need to sit on the couch because the babysitter has to leave early and bring my computer with me, I can do that.

All right. I did interrupt you because I wanted to dive in there. I want to make sure we get to any specific question. But I think you called because you've got some concerns. We know your husband's concerns. He's like, You know what? I want you to be a full-time mom. It's great for the kids, the nurturing. That's his position. We get it. But you don't make this call if you don't have some concerns about what's on the other side of you walking away. Am I right?

Yeah, definitely. What are your concerns?

Tell me.

From one standpoint, as much as I know we can afford it and we're in a good position financially, there's always that fear that things change. What's your income? You could always go back to work.

What's your income right now?

I make 120 a year. Just me or my husband as well.

No, I just wanted to know because you're giving us your concerns, so I want to walk through those. One is we can afford it, but that's also 120K pre-tax. That's a lot of money. What are your other concerns about walking away?

I also carry the benefits.

What does your husband work, by the way? I just want to know, what does he make?

He owns his own business, so salary, he takes about 150, but then It takes distributions as needed. We try to limit that just because we don't really need it, so we can keep it in the building there.

The health care benefits are going to be very different if his company is carrying them. I've been there, done that. What else is on your concern list? Anything else?

We live in a very high cost of living area, so there's always the concern.

It is financial.

There's two money things you've listed.

Yeah.

That's not bad.

We're No, I think it's fantastic.

I think it's your call in this situation.

I think he's got his preference, but this is a conversation that we have to have at the dinner table with a budget and go, Let's walk through reality if I walk away. Let's start doing a real new budget. We got to start there.

Can I just be honest?

I hope you're always honest.

I feel like if we were talking about a situation where you're like, I go into the city every day, I work 9:00 to 5:00, I come I'm exhausted. That would be a lot different of a conversation. But we're talking about a woman who honestly sounds like you have the ideal situation that a lot of moms would be like, I wish that was the situation for me. You have it the best of both worlds in that you've got this flexibility and you can see your children. You've got three days at home that you're working, but you've also got two days where you go into the office and you get to be a professional, Samantha. I Honestly, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I'm with you. If I was your husband, I wouldn't have brought this up at all. Real quick, we only got about a minute.

Because that's going to put a lot of pressure on him, too.

Well, and I want to ask real quick, do you guys have any debt at all? Just our mortgage. Okay. So again, this comes back to this is a preference issue. You guys need to have a real honest conversation, and you need to lay out your concerns with him. He needs to hear your concerns. We need to put pen to paper on what a real budget looks like without your income. That has to happen. Then we've got to square that up and go, Here's the financial piece. I've got concerns about what life looks like with my 120 gone. Let's talk that first. Then you need to go, and then there's like what I do. I got flexibility. The kids are going to see me every day. I want to stay in it. You didn't mention this, but my gut is, you want to leave the door open to coming back, right? Yeah, absolutely. I don't think I don't think this is worthy of shutting the door. I'm with Jade 100%, and I'd say as the husband, dude, what are you thinking?

What are you thinking? I'm feeling some type of way because part of me would be like, Well, what would it look like then if you stayed home? I'd turn the tables on this a little bit and figure out- Not me, because I want that double income right now. I'm just saying to try to figure out what are we really trying to get at. Is it a money thing? Is it a nurturing thing? I guarantee you. If you ask those type of questions, you're going to get to the bottom of it.

But I guarantee you this is his tradition. This Edition. The way he grew up, what he's always envisioned, that's part of it. This is The Ramsey Show. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show, where we help you win with your money in your work and in your relationships. 888-825-5225 is the phone number. I'm Ken Coleman. Jade Warshaw joins me. Jade and I were just talking during the commercial break, and I can't give it away, or she's going to punch me right in the throat. But we're going to do something fun at our brand new, spanking new event called the Total Money Makeover Weekend. The dates are May 10 and 11. It's right here on our campus. Franklin, Tennessee is just a God's gift to the south, and just a suburb of Nashville. So great destination place. You're going to get a crash course on everything we teach about money, brand new content from all the Ramsey personalities, including Dave, budgeting, beating debt, investing, and more. It's going to be really fun in that. Not only are we going to speak, but we're going to do a lot of Q&A, a lot of interaction with the audience.

Then, as I said, Jade has asked me to join her for a fun moment, and that's all I'm allowed to say.

One night only.

One time only event. If you've enjoyed our segments on the show in the past, when we talk about budget, she's the budget The Queen. I've now given her that moniker. We'll see if it sticks. But it's going to be fun. A lot of fun. Tickets are right now on sale at an early bird price of just 99 bucks, but that's limited. We're going to sell out 2,400 people in the arena here, and it will sell out. So come on. Ramseysolutions. Com/events. Ramseysolutions. Com/events. All right, speaking of collaborating with you, you told me right before the show that you got the 411 on some new app. What is this? What do you have?

Okay, so I feel like yesterday was Valentine's Day, and in the spirit of that, I found this new dating app. Actually, my husband sent this to me.

I'm a little concerned as to why Sam is sending you information on dating apps, but I'm going to keep that between you two. Sam's a good friend. He's out there in the lobby. I'm messing with you.

To clarify, sometimes he'll send me things that he thinks people will want to hear about on the show.

I know. Sam, you know I love I got you, Sam. I got your bag. He's a good man.

So it says, The new dating app. There's a new dating app that only matches singles who have good credit scores. Come on. It's funny because we've talked about this before about when you're dating and When's a good time to bring up financial stuff? That's where. What are your barriers to entry? You know what I mean? What does somebody have to have the minimum on the table for you to be going forward?

So they're taking the step of, We're going to throw a filter in here.

Yes. Listen, it says, Just in It's time for Valentine's Day, the app is called SCORE.

Now, that makes me a little uncomfortable.

A new app and a website for the financially minded. It hopes to attract people with good to excellent credit scores who know the importance of monitoring their finances No one with a credit score less than 675 is allowed to join. No way. 675 is table stakes.

They have to submit their credit report to get- Yes.

Wow. Yes. Of course, an 850 is considered perfect in Very few people get in at that point. But yeah, you have to have at least a 675. So score, there's more to it than this, and I think it's worth talking about. Scor.

They know what they're doing with that.

Of course.

Yeah. All right.

It's a dating app. It's a little It's a Kenuendo, but we don't have to talk about that. It is a cany window.

It is. All right.

Scor is the creation of another company. They're called the Neon Money Club. It's a company black-owned, and they partnered with American Express to create not only this app, but this is maybe the other part that's worth talking about. It's its own credit card. It's called the Cream Card.

Now, I'm completely...

I got questions. That's a Wu-Tang reference, Ken. It is? Cream, get the money.

Dollar, dollar, bill. This is why I don't know, and I didn't get it. I'm not a big Wu-Tang guy. Wu-tang clan, Ken. I need to get caught up. I need to go back and refresh myself on the Wu-Tang. Yeah.

When I look at you, you scream somebody who would know all the Wu-Tang songs. Yeah. Anyway. You're right. This card- It's called Cream? It's called the cream card, and it lets card holders- I like cream corn.invest in the stock market using the points they earn.

So it's a game. They are now setting you up. It's under the guise of responsible dating all to get a credit card. Am I drawing the lines correctly?

What I'm thinking is happening here is we're all people who want to build our credit. And so I'm going to find somebody on the score app, and I'm going take them to dinner, and I'm going to use my cream card to buy us Filet Mignon in Domperrion. And it's okay if I spend more than I can afford because I can take the points and invest them in the stocks.

I have so many thoughts that I feel like James Childs, our fearless producer, sitting on my shoulder right now saying, careful. I have many thoughts about this. It's not good. I'm going to go to a restaurant with my score date and drop my cream card on the table.

And she's going to go, oh, la, la, like he has the card.

I just don't know, man. This is all... This is garbage. This is a game. Let me say this. You tell me wrong. It feels like we're in the matrix again. They are gaming people, literally.

It's just terrible. I'm like, Wait a minute. So you're going to spend more money. Let's just put this in just a simple real terms.

Is this appealing only to the African-American community?

I hope it's not appealing to any community. I mean, don't get me wrong.

I think that- I know you don't, but I'm saying this feels like this is This is a real play.

Well, let's real talk for a minute, Ken. What I think about stuff like this is just Jade talking. What I truly think about situations like this is I think that at their core, they think they're helping people, and they want to help people. They're thinking the way- Very nice. They I think the way we help people is to help them build their credit score, because if people can have access to credit, they can have access to more. That's what a lot of people believe. Whereas here, our rhetoric on that is completely different, obviously. I think that they do believe if we can offer this to people, we're doing them a service. I don't.

I think these are slimy credit card people because the whole point of the app is to lead you up the ladder to the credit card. I'm just telling you.

But think about it. I don't know what the point system is.

They don't care about dating. They don't care about marriage.

But they're thinking we're going to bring couples together who are like-minded, who are going on a financial journey together, who are going to build their empire together. I'm like, You can't do that based on credit and debt. Because think about it. I'm with you. 100%. If you say, All right, in a normal life, if I was spending cash, I'd spend $100. But if you're like, Listen, you don't get any points until you spend $150, then you spend $50 more. Then you're like, Okay, great. I spent $50 more, and now I got 30 cream points, and I can invest that $30. I'm like, What are you doing? You spent more.

This is a side of the Apocalypse when we're trying to get cream points. It's like society is done. Now, I got an I just got an idea. I just got an idea right now. What if we have a program that is a dating app, and it only allows people in that are debt-free?

Listen, that would be the app for me.

No debit card, no credit card. It's just, you know what? You want to find people who are like-minded with you with money? Money problems is one of the biggest causes of divorce. We need a dating app. You and George need to get on that. It's only for people who are debt-free and you have zero credit score because you have no debt. Now, this would change society.

It would change society. I have some real thoughts. I can't share them, though.

I feel like you're narrowing the pool a lot.

Yeah.

You want to narrow the pool to find the right person. Small pool for the long game.

Yes, but in many ways, love goggles can be very helpful. Love goggles. Yes, love goggles. When you meet someone- I'm lost right now.

I don't know what you're talking about.

I'm going to get you where I'm going. When I met Sam Warshaw, I didn't know how much debt he had, but I'm like, This guy's a snack. I'm like, Let's go forward. And by the time I found out how much- He's a snack. By the time I found out how much debt he had, my love goggles didn't care. So he wouldn't have got into the app, and maybe instead I would have been matched with some point Dexter who's maybe not as good-looking. You're right.

I'm being a little altruistic, but I'm just saying you want to be around people, that you want to have no money problems. You want to find girls. You want to find guys that got no debt. It's just an app idea. This whole It's hysterical. What do you think, America? All I know is I'm looking at Sam Warshaw in the lobby right now, and all I can see is a piece of celery.

No, no, no, no, no, No snack.

That's an entree. My world, what world do you live in where a filet is a snack? What are you, the Rock? I don't know. That's what the Rock eats.

A chocolate-covered strawberry, Ken.

Oh, my gosh. Stay away from the app and the credit cards and everything. Oh, my gosh. I feel like I learned so much, and yet I'm not better for it.

Well, now you know Wutang clan, so there you go.

I do need to search the old tube, the YouTube for some Wutang videos. This is The Ramsey Show. This is The Ramsey Show, where we help you win with your money, win in your work, and win in your relationships. I'm Ken Coleman, and Jade Warshaw joins me this hour, 888-825-5225. Wakeen is going to start us off in Phoenix. Wakeen, how can we help?

Hi, I was getting a call. I had a question. Me and my wife are going back and forth. I have to give you a little background I have four properties, I guess, that are all paid off. We bought this one property to build a house on. My wife wants me to get a loan and finish building the house just because we've had some problems with hiring and doing it a little bit at a time. We've been saving the money and doing that. That's why I called in to see what you guys think about.

All right, so real quick, are you living in some other house or are you living in a part of this house? Because I heard you say four. No. Okay.

No. I have a house that I live in right now. That's paid for. I have two other rental properties, and then we bought this other property.

Okay. I heard properties, and I wasn't sure if we were talking dirt or homes. Are there homes on all these properties? No.

Yeah, I have three homes and one property. Well, I have an old beat-up home on it, but I'm going to tear it down and I'm building that.

Got you. You're in the process of building another house right now?

Yes, on that property.

Yes, sir. How much do you have left?

I just started building the shop.

Okay.

My wife wanted me to… Like I said, the house I live in now is 20 years old, so my wife wants me to put some money into this house, and I want to sell this house and just use that money to build a house.

She wants me to… Okay.

She That's what it means.

Well, let's get some real numbers here. What's it going to cost you? Eventually, you guys are going to move out of this house, and you're going to build something on this land or whatever it is that you own, right? What do you think it's going to cost to do that?

I'm looking about $400.

$400, okay. How much cash do you have saved?

I got about $150 in the bank, I guess. I can play with.

Is that, aside from 3-6 months of emergency fund, or is that including?

Well, because I have no, that's aside because I have like 20,000 I saved for emergency fund.

We've got 20,000 aside for emergency fund, and then you've got this 150, correct? Two separate pots?

Yes.

Okay. I'm sorry, I'm asking you a bunch of questions, but I want to get the lay of the land. How much income do you and your wife bring home per month combined?

It's about 120. It ranges, goes a little higher sometimes, but 120, let's go with that.

Okay. My suggestion here, I'm going to give you a couple of different options. For your emergency fund, I'd probably like to see it beefed up a little bit more simply because you're about to move into a brand new house or you live in a rental now that needs work. I just feel like having a little more than $20,000 might be helpful. Whether it's you just stacking that cash up or you moving some over from the $150,000 that you have piled up. Then my next question is, if I were you, I look at this situation and I'm thinking, you've done a lot of things right. You've got paid off real estate. But my personal residence, I don't want to have a bunch of paid off real estate over here that a bunch of other people are living in, but my own personal residence has a mortgage on it. I want to make sure the house- You all are I can say, yeah.

You know what I'm saying? The house I live in now don't have a mortgage.

Right. But when you go to move into this new house that you build, you want to lay your head down on the pillow and know there's no mortgage there. I would consider, I don't know what these other three properties are worth, but what would it take to pull together another $300,000 to make this happen debt-free?

Well, that's the thing. I wanted to do that, but then I'll keep building it up, and I'll do it as we go. But my house I'm in now needs work. So I need to put another 20, 30,000 to this house.

In order to even sell it?

No, I would sell for five right now, as it is. But I wanted to fix it up a little bit.

If you know that you're going to sell it, I wouldn't put the money into selling it if you know that you're going to still pull 500 from it.

But then my wife, I told her, Let's move to the other property and live in our motorhome and then sell this house We have the money, we have the money to build that thing. But my wife don't want to live in the motorhome up on the other property until we- How long would it be? I live in this house. Well, another story. I got two girls that are still in high school, so I got to wait for them to get out of high school. So I got about three years.

So what's the realistic timeline on this? If they're out of high school in three years, let's put some real numbers down because I'm thinking, Okay, number one, the house is not on fire. So this is not even a thing. It sounds like until three years from now. So the things that you were talking about-. The things your wife doesn't want to live in a motorhome, and that's understandable. So we're definitely not going to have her live in a… I'm sorry?

She A motorhome with two teenage girls.

Right, exactly. Nobody does. No one wants to do that. We're not pulling the trigger on that at all right now. Realistically, your timeline is in three years, unless you said, Okay, we're going to sell this house, we're going to sell the motorhome, and we're going to, I don't know, do something short term. But what I think the strategy is, no matter how you get to it, is when it's time for you to build on this other piece of land that you have, you're going to do it in cash. That's thing one. If you put that on the paper first and circle it with exclamation points, then everything else is a derivative of that. It's like, Okay, we're doing this in cash. So what does that have to mean in order for that to take place? Well, we're going to have to sell one of these three properties. You said that one of them you live in, one of them is. Tell me about the three properties. Is it possible that instead of you guys living in the motorhome when this time comes, that you coincide it to where with one of your renters, they're out and you're into that property until your home is finished.

Then when your new home is finished, you move into the home and then you bring new renters back into that other house. Now, at the end of the day, you're left with one rental property with renters. You're in your home that's completely debt-free. I don't know what the motorhome situation is, but I'm selling it because it's going down in value.

Well, I don't want to sell it. I use it for… I like going out in it. I don't want to sell my motorhome.

What's your household income? About 120. You said 100,000? Yeah. 120? Yeah. And what's the motorhome worth?

It's probably worth 25, so it's not worth a lot.

Listen, at the end of the day, here's the math I want you to do. If you calculate that with all the other vehicles you have, if it's more than half of your yearly income, you need to get rid of something because that's too much. You don't have enough of a… It's too much stuff going down in value at the end of the day.

Yeah. Waukeen, you called to ask us, should you finance building a new house because your wife wants the house? The answer is no.

I've listened to you guys forever, and I know you guys are going to say no, but that's why I wanted her to hear about.

Right. But we've walked through everything. This is really simple. You're going to do what you want to do at the motorhome. I agree with Jade completely. But bottom line is you don't need to finance, so don't finance. You have the properties to be able to do this. With the kids in school and everything, Jade walked you through the timeline. This is pretty simple. I mean, it's time to move on. You either decide that you're going to do debt or you decide not to do debt. You know what our position is. It's that simple. But if I was in your situation, I'm moving those properties so that I build the house that I really want, that my wife wants cash.

The good news is if he wants to get started on this sooner, all he has to do is look and go, Okay, the other rental house, when's their lease up? Because as soon as their lease is up, you guys can move in there and get started sooner than three for him now, so he's got options. It's his wife he's going to have to get on board.

Oh, yeah. He is not wanting to part with that mobile home. I feel that.

Do you? Look, that's the least of his concerns.

I agree. He can do everything we told him to do and still keep the mobile home. But when you got opportunities like that, it just makes so much more sense. Yeah. Fascinating. How long have you been co-hosting on the show?

No, since December of '22. All right.

I've never asked any of my co-hosts this, so I'm fascinated with this.

I'm ready, Ken.

What is your take, having sat in the seat enough now, on why a guy like him, I'm not knocking on him, why does Waukeen know exactly what we're going to say, but he still calls in anyway?

He and his wife are not on the same page. When he goes in to talk to her about this, he feels like he's speaking another language. But when he calls us, now suddenly we're all talking the same language, and he realizes he's not crazy.

That's what I think. Then he gets a little bit of confidence, a little bit of language.

Yeah, it's like, Okay, I'm not totally crazy. Okay, now I can stand on business a little bit more when I go talk to my wife. That's what I think.

I concur. I concur. I can't add anything to it. I've never asked one of my co-hosts. You know what? Instead of pontificating myself, I thought. Pontificating? I want to see what Jade says.

That's a good word, Ken.

It's a word you can use this week. No one will know what it means, but you sound great. Don't move. This is the Ramsey Show. If you're an HR pro or business leader, listen up. Money problems are the number one cause of stress for the American worker. That stress doesn't just stay at home. It's following your people into work and hurting your business in the form of turnover, missed work, and lost productivity. The fact is, your people can't give their all at work when their finances at home are a mess.

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To find out how you can provide true financial wellness for your employees, go to smartdollars. Com. Again, smartdollars. Com. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm Ken Coleman. Jade Warshaw is with me. 888-825-5225 answering your calls. Let's go to St. Louis, Missouri area, and that's where John joins us. John, how can we help?

Hi, John. Me and my girlfriend, we are recently pregnant. I'm Ken.

You're John.

Oh, my bad.

No worries.

It happens all the time, Ken.

I just wanted to make sure I wasn't confused.

I'm so flustered. I'm so flustered. I'm so flustered. I'm so amazed that you guys picked up my phone call. You're Doing great job.

Anyways.

Me and my girlfriend, we found that we were pregnant, and we've been together about six months. I've got some debt. She's actually debt-free, thankfully, but I've got some debt, some dead weight on my end that's dragging. I've yet to check out paternity leave and all the benefits that I have. I checked out my handbook and it says to check in with HR, which I have yet to do. There's nothing stipulated in the handbook. I'm really wanting to take off three months, but that's one of the baby steps. I would be having to put that ahead of baby step number one. Should I go ahead and do that if they don't give me the parental leave, or should I focus on getting my emergency fund, doing the baby steps in order?

Well, I'm I wanted to tell you right now, if they don't give you paid three months, is that what you're asking?

Yeah.

If they don't give you the paid paternity leave, no, you're not taking time off. You're working. You're in debt. You're broke.

Yeah.

Jade?

I'm just not sure. My girlfriend, she feels like I need to be there for her.

I mean, I agree with you that I'm in debt. Yeah, but you can be there for her if you get paid. But if you do not get paid for three months. I think you're really struggling financially, even scrap that money together. I still wouldn't do it because I think you need to be getting out of debt. The best thing you can do to be there for her and this baby is to keep making money and keep paying off debt. Period. End of story. Now, that's my take.

At the very least, and I have some views on this, but at the very least, one thing you could do is take some vacation, take your vacation time and take a week if you have paid vacation.

Great idea.

Because I do think that she's going to need support, as much support as she can get. But if you can give her that week after she gets home from the hospital, that is so much.

That's good.

But this points to a bigger conversation.

Bigger conversation. But, John, I would also add to what Jade said. I think taking the vacation That's smart. Use your vacation time to be there for her. But you guys are young, and I've done this three times. I just want to say from experience, you can be there for her while you're working, too. What that means is- Wait a minute. Hold on a second. I'm not finished. I hadn't landed the plane. You got to let me land it before I'm saying he can be there for her. He takes the vacation time that you're recommending, but he can work and still go home and take the midnight, the 4:00 AM, bust his tail. He can be there for her and work full-time.

Listen, Then, John, you might need to go. Ken and I might need to have a little taxi here.

We can have a taxi. But, John, am I making sense to you? Because you're working doesn't mean you're not there for her. You're going to have to have some soupless nights. Take the feedings. Give her some time. Give her some- There's no such thing as taking the feedings in the beginning, beginning, Ken. That's not true. I mean, depending on how you're feeding the baby. Thank you. But you just made a blanket statement. My wife did not breastfeed, so guess who helped?

That's true. That is true. I'm just saying. But you also made the blanket statement of he could still support her. I'm like, it depends on the situation.

No, he can support her after he gets off work by coming in, taking bath time, doing a lot of stuff. How about some laundry? I did all this stuff. You're acting like he can't support her when he gets home.

I'm not saying he can't, but I do think that in his situation, let me be clear, in John's situation, he's got debt, they're not married Jade. There's a lot going on here. I think if he takes his seven days of vacation- I love that. And he's there for her that week, that's great. But in a grand scheme of things, the ideal situation is you've got 3-6 months saved. We always tell people to go into stork mode when a baby is coming. You're stacking up money because if you can't take—this is Jade's opinion—if you can't take paternity leave, you've got to stack up some money because I'm just telling you, and I know plenty of women doing it that did it, but because my husband worked from home, I was home when I had my kids. But I can't imagine not having help for the first 2-4 weeks with the newborn, especially if you had a cesarean. Like, Come on now, Ken.

Okay, listen, I get it. But help doesn't only exist in the form of your stay-at-home husband.

I get it, but I'm saying you have that option.

You didn't sound like you get it. I'm saying it's a great option if he has it. John, speak. Excuse me, can I interject here? Of course. This is your call.

Just to give you guys a little bit A little bit of background. Like I said, in terms of what we do, we both work in a factory and we both work second shift. She works 2:00 to 10:00 and I work 3:00 to 11:00. We're going to have to figure out something about that, first of all, with the baby and daycare. That's going to be something we're going to have to work around. My debt are in the form of a $4,500 loan that I have to a bank. It's an auto loan, and that's a $191 payment a month that I could free up. That's the biggest I have. Then a debt to the state I owe through some legal fees and things like that.

How much is that?

That's, I think, 1,500 or maybe 1,400 after I paid a little bit on it.

Okay. When do you guys get married?

I'm pushing that out until I get debt-free, to be honest.

Here's what I think. I'm going to tell you my opinion, and you can do what you want with it. I think for you guys to have- We could get a loat. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, in order for you to do the things that I think you feel you want to do and need to do, I think you need to do it under the cover of marriage. If I'm you, I'm going to the courthouse and I'm getting the certificate. I love that. That way you can financially be there for her in a way that you're both protected. I think that's really, really important that you do this in that way so that it's like, okay, now we're working together, we're paying off this debt. It's our plan, and you guys are no longer individual singles. You're we, and it just makes moving forward a lot easier. It sounds like you were going to marry her anyway. In no way am I saying, You should marry her just because you had a baby, even though you don't even like her that much. I'm not saying that. It sounds like you all were on that path anyway. Am I right?

Yes, for sure. Can you pay off this debt, John, before a baby arrives?

Even in storm mode? I don't think that's possible.

I don't think it is.

I think two years, maybe.

Okay. Despite Jay and I's difference of opinion on what the husband's role is. Here's the deal. Let me make it clear. If your company says, Yeah, we have a three-month deal and we're going to pay you, then take it. But I'm just telling you, I'm taking the extremely conservative approach, and it's all about money and you providing. I don't apologize for that at all. If you don't get the three months paid, tough. Life is tough. The kid's going to be fine. She's going to be fine. We'll find a way. You can be there for her, and you should be there for her after you've busted your butt all day long. I did it.

But that loss of income is not worth it. No.

No.

In this case, I definitely don't think so.

I think you're better suited to keep working, but Like I said, take the resources you have and try to help her out.

But Ken- John, are you good? Before Jade takes off on me here, I feel… You good?

There's one more thing I need to get squared.

We got about a minute and a half.

In regards to that loan, it's on two vehicles, and both of them are totaled out. One of them is totaled out because I got in a wreck, and I did not have insurance, unfortunately. The other one, it just needs to have gas to be replaced, and I'm not sure if I want to replace it because it's just a lemon, to be honest.

But the total is 4,500?

Yeah, I pay quite a bit off on both the cars. One of them was a.

What's your question?

What can I do in order to alleviate those debts?

Work four jobs. Work four jobs.

You got to pay it off. There's You have no life right now.

None.

I mean, the only thing you could do is maybe take it to a scrap yard and see if they'd give you anything for the metal.

You can try working it out with the bank, but that's a fail Mary. We got to have another plan.

I mean, he said they're totally scrapped.

They're totally told. I know. He said, Could he work out the bank? I go, I'm always going to leave the opportunity open. Probably not going to work. The point is, you got to pay it off. You have no life. She's pregnant anyway.

They won't release a title to me to sell it. They're like, You make this amount on the sale, or we don't release the title.

You still got to pay it off.

But they're total vehicles. Who are you selling them to?

Well, I'd part them out.

One of them is a four car. That's an option.

But he still has to pay it off before he can scrap it out.

Listen, you're only- I tell him, you guys can take all the money for it. Your only choice here is to work. You got to work it off. It's $4,500. You're working like a crazy man for a lot of reasons here coming up. You got a baby and you got debt you have to pay off. There's no easy equation out of this.

Thanks for the call, John. You just got to work really, really hard. Congratulations Congratulations.

You got out easy this time, Ken, but I had my argument set and ready for that paternity.

We're going to reset that because I'm right. What? I don't mind proving it. This is The Ramsey Show. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, this is the Ramsey Show. It's where we help you win in your life. Winning in your money, winning in your work, and winning in your relationships is the goal, and we can help you. 888-825-5225. Com. Jade Warshaw joins me this hour. I'm Ken Coleman. The phone number to jump in is 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225. Rosalie is on the line in San Antonio. Rosalie, how can we help?

Hi, guys. I'm having a little bit of buyer's remorse with our house. We sold our first home last year, and then we bought a new home this time last year as well. I just feel like it's just way too much money, and I'm having a little bit of remorse here. What did we got ourselves into? What happened?

Walk us through the numbers.

Okay. We bought it our first home in 2017, and we made $100,000 in equity.

Okay.

Then I paid off my school loans, and we paid off our vehicles, and so we were debt-free except for our mortgage. Okay. We bought about a $500,000 home. We make about $10,000 every month. That's what we're bringing home.

Okay. How much is your mortgage payment?

$4,000.

Okay. Yeah. That's why you're feeling that you're about 40% of your income. We would suggest that you be somewhere around 25%. That's why you're feeling it. Yes. Tell me more.

So it was we fell in love. Our real estate agent was awesome. We just qualified and qualified and qualified and got over our head and just got swept away with the moment- Yeah, because they'll say you're good up to 50 %, usually. Yeah. And then they're like, Oh, your credit score is so good. You can get more and more. I was just like, Oh, my gosh.

Listen, the lesson that you just learned is a lesson that so many people need to learn Because I can tell you, coming here, when Sam and I put an offer on a house, they were willing to approve us up to 50% of our income. Gladly. Gladly. They're like, Oh, we'll make the approval letter for this much. I'm like, No, that's good. You can just make it for the amount that we want. That's funny. So remember, guys, anybody listening, advocate for yourself because they want you to spend, spend, spend because they get paid off that. So just stick to your guns. All right, so you're in at $4,000 a month. Are both you and your husband Are you working?

Yes, I'm a virtual teacher, and then he owns a body shop with his dad. So we're both working.

Are you working 40 hours a week? Are you both working 40 hours plus a week? Yes.

Okay. Yes. We've got two little ones. I've got a three-month-old that stays home with me, and then I have a three-year-old who goes to daycare.

Okay. How much is daycare?

It's not bad for our area.

It You say as you chuckle when I asked you that question, what was the chuckle about?

I mean, that's average.

How much was it?

150 a week.

150 a week.

Oh, yeah. All right. That's not bad. I was just curious.

Yeah, it's just an expense because I've debated pulling him out and trying to work because I'm a virtual teacher, so I can work from home. But I've got a three-month-old and then a three-year-old. It's just a A little bit crazy.

What was your interest rate?

I think it was right around 6%.

This is a 30-year, I'm guessing? Yeah. Girlfriend. All right. So the choices are not many. Your choices are, which, by the way, let me just ask, what's the house worth now? It's still sitting the same. It's 500. You I didn't buy it too high. 541 is what I looked at.

We have 47 to pay it off. And I want to sell, but I don't want to pay capital game tax.

Yes. That's what I'm getting at is- Right. Well, let's look at this logically. All right, you're in at 40 %. Now, the question is, do you see a pathway where you and your husband can close that gap and knock it down 20% points to get it where it needs to be?

With income?

To increase our income?

Yeah. Can you find a way to increase your income by 15% is basically what I'm asking you.

I feel like we're maxed out with a three-year-old and a three-month-old. We're definitely busy.

That's the reality of the situation. If you can't see a clear path to increasing your income, 15% so you're closing this gap, and then it's sitting at 25, 28, even 30%, where it's a lot more comfortable, then you do need to consider some situations going forward. Now, let's look at this capital gains thing with real numbers. Okay, let's say that you bought it for 500. Let's say you sold it for 540. So that's a gain of 40%, and your capital gains rate is based on your income bracket. Based on where your income is, I think in your case, you're probably going to be at the 15% You're either going to pay 15 or 20, I believe, if I'm saying that correctly. But 15% of 40,000- I would sell.

I'd take a hit. I was curious what other options you were going to give.

Take the $4,500 hit because It's a lot easier. I think we hear capital gains and we're like, Oh, my gosh. You're thinking that it's going to make you go bankrupt. But when you really draw the numbers, it's not like you had a gain of $300,000 on this property.

Let's just look at the psychological side of the money. I think Jade's right. I think that's the option. If you can't increase your income, if he can't do bodywork on the side on the weekend, you're going to be stressed out every month as opposed to a little stressed out for a couple months to pay that tax bill.

Yeah, because when did they move in? When did you move in?

March of last year.

So it's been a year?

I'd take the hit. You get out without very little stress at all, and you guys just learn from this and move on. If you literally can't increase your income, then I think that's your only viable option. I would not bite the bullet and be really stressed out every month.

For over a year with kids?

Yeah, because I was thinking of just staying here another year and just keeping it real tight with the budget. How tight is it?

You know what? Are you able to make it work?

Yes.

Without credit cards?

Yes.

Then I would stay for a year. If you can make it work for a year, then stay. If you can't put food If you're on the table, you got to get out. Yeah.

Okay. No, we're not doing credit cards. My husband, he likes his toys, so we have a third vehicle. We've got a truck probably worth about $15,000, and I think we could- He's not going to like me.

He ain't going to like me. But if I had been one-half of this bad decision, I would then be going, All right, I'm going to start selling stuff, and we're going to stack some cash.

Well, yeah, because you're going to sell that truck because the time is come for you guys to move, and you want to know what you're going to need. Moving truck, boxes, tape, all that stuff that costs, and that truck is going to come in real handy to pay for all that.

He's a very talented guy doing bodywork. I'd like to challenge him to work a couple Saturdays. I know you need him at home. I'm going to get yelled at by Jade on Saturdays. But if I was this tight, I want to go find some margin, and I'm going to go work.

Yes, Ken. Men should work.

I'm not going to leave you stranded, but I got to go make some money. This is the Ramsey Show. Folks, changing your family tree takes more than rice and beans and side hustles. It's also about transferring the big financial risks off your family by having the right kinds of coverage in place. That's why my team created the Coverage Checkup Quiz. It only takes about five minutes to find out what types of insurance you need and don't need to protect your finances. Make this quiz one of your regular checkups starting right now at ramseysolutions. Com/checkup. That's ramseysolutions. Com/checkup. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm Ken Colman. Jade Warshaw is with me this hour, 888-825-5225. Hey, folks, this is a breaking news item here. Fresh off the presses. The Money and Marriage Getaway is back. This has been a really A popular event with Dr. John Delaney and Rachel Cruz. The new dates are for our fall season, October 24 through 26. It's a weekend getaway for you and yours, right here in Nashville, Tennessee, on our campus. Two and a half days of teaching focused on communication, intimacy, and money. A lot of Q&A for you to get real answers to your real questions about money in your marriage.

You and your spouse are going to come away with tools to get better. I think you're going to be better. Wonderful, wonderful weekend. Platinum tickets already sold out. A few VIP left. That includes a meet and greet with John or Rachel. Get them before they go. Tickets are $799. That's where they start. You can get them by going to ramseysolutions. Com/events. Visit ramseysolutions. Com/events. All right, time for the Ramsey Show, Question of the Day, brought to you by our friends at Neighborly, your hub for Home Services. Winter is the perfect time to freshen up your home's interior with a new coat of paint. Five-star painting can paint your walls and doors, even those difficult cabinets and trim. Find a locally-owned five-star painting near you@neighborley. Com/ramsey. Love it.

Today's question comes from Melissa in Iowa. She says, I'm at a new job making almost double the hourly pay from my last job. My old job was my ultimate goal, but we moved for my husband's career. Even though I'm making great money, I am completely unhappy at this new job. I miss my old job and coworkers, but my pay is so much better here. I I've only been here for three months, but I'm not sure how long to keep going at it before I go looking for something like my old career, where I know that I'll make less money again. How long should I stick it out before finding something more fulfilling like my previous job? For context, we are debt-free and saving for a down payment for a home.

All right, so this gets some layers to it. This is funny because if Dave were here, he'd have a very different response than me. You think? Oh, yeah. He's very anti-going backward on anything in salary as it relates to meaning. It irritates me. You're like, Well, you can find the meaning in the money, and many times you can, but not always. All right? So here's my take on this.

I think I meet you both in the middle.

Yeah. My take on this is you're not going to be able to continue to do this much longer mentally and emotionally for the way you laid it out. You love the old work. This is just a JOB for you. There's no juice or passion in it. For that reason, I don't think it's long before you start to look. I think you I would make the case, though, that I would stick it out long enough to get that house down payment.

I like that.

I'm reasonable on it to say, All right, sometimes we do what we have to do so that, watch this, we can do what we want to do. Boom. It's one of the Great lines from the movie The Great Debaters, Forrest Whitaker is the father in that, and he tells his son that one night. The son's always wanting to be on the debate practice. He's neglecting his studies. He says, Son, you do what you have to do so that later you can do what you want to do. I think in this case, I would stick it out. The way that you can do this, because I do not want to minimize the realities, folks, of burnout on the job. When you have no connection to your work, you will burn out fast. I want to call that out because millions of people are listening and watching us right now going, That's me. How does she do it? She says every day, I'm grateful for this job that pays a lot better than my old job that I loved because this is going to help me buy a house that I love. Yeah, I love that. When we get the down payment, Jade, now I'm shifting and I'm going, I'm debt free.

I've done a good job on my home, and I have the margin to make less because it was never about making more in the previous career. She only left it because of the move for her hubs. So in this case, I don't even consider it I'm taking a pay note. You're going to do the thing that you know you love to do.

Yes, that's so important. And I think people do I need to hear that there is a time in a space where you do a job. I talked about this a while back with Rachel. You do a job to get to where you want to go, and there is very good reason to do any job until you are able to do the job. In this case, there is a down payment that you're hoping for. I think a house is a pretty dang good reason to keep chugging away to make double the income.

Come on. This is a version of paying your dues.

Yeah. I When I think about doing work that I did not want to do, Sam and I traveled for a decade, and sometimes we'd be gone, Ken, 35 weeks out of the year. It's exhausting. People think it's glamorous. Oh, you're going to Turkey. Oh, you're going to Australia. I'm like, Girl, I'm tired.

You didn't even know where you were.

I didn't even know where I was. We were at the point where we had already paid off our debt, and I was ready to stop traveling. But I was like, You know what? If we do this a little bit longer, we can save for this down payment.

Love same exact situation. Love the question. That's my take on that. But I will tell you, once you do what you have to do, there comes a point in life where you better do what you want to do, or you will get to the end of your journey and look back in regret. That is true. One of the top five regrets of the dying, according to a best-selling book out of Australia written by a hospice nurse, was I did not live the life that I truly wanted to live. That's sad. That's that important. We at Ramsey can teach you how to be a millionaire on a teacher salary. The third largest group of networth millionaires, based on our unprecedented study of networth millionaires that we did at Ramsey Solutions, the third largest group of networth millionaires are teachers. The median pay in the United States for teachers right now is about 63, $64,000, some of the latest stuff I've seen. The point is you can do it. It's where you make enough. Great question. Love that, and I loved your anecdote. You guys did it. You actually walked it.

But I think to To your point, what you were just saying, Ken, there's something really important about that that I do want to highlight, which is one of the things I love most about the baby steps is when you do baby step two, I think something that we just forget about. When we're paying off debt, we're so focused on, I got to earn more money so I can pay off more debt so I can earn more money. We're just trying to get out of that. You really don't, and probably before you got into the baby steps, you were just in that paycheck to paycheck wheel, and you never get the chance to stop and think, If life were different, what would I be doing? If money wasn't this tight, what's really the career I'd enjoy doing? One of the benefits of becoming debt-free is you declutter your mind enough to have It's a privilege to be able to sit and think, What would I like to do? What's a career that, in your words, gives me the juice? It's very important, and a lot of people don't even take the time. I was talking to an adult in my life, and I said, Well, if you could do whatever you wanted to do, what would it be?

They said, I don't know. I've never had the ability to think of that.

Isn't that tragic?

It's tragic. I don't know. I've done what I have to do, and I'm like, Oh, man, we got to get past that.

I love that you said that because Dave made this line famous, Live like no one else, baby's up one, two, three. Even the full step, the full process. But the backside of that phrase is, Live like no one else so later you can live. Then he added give like no one else. But let's just look at the live like no one else. It's exactly what you just talked about. When you get to that point, you can decide whatever the crap you want to do. There's real freedom here, not just financial freedom, but financial freedom gives birth to so much more freedom. That's right. I can live where I want to live, travel to where I want to travel. You start to fill in the blank. I want to- You start to see what's truly important to you.

You start to realize maybe you're not a person who really is motivated by money. Maybe you're more motivated by being able to serve. Maybe you're more motivated by being able to create something. But because our debt has made us... Debt makes everybody money motivated, and so you lose track with who you are, which is very interesting.

I want to call that out, folks. That was a little bit of a bomb right there. Debt makes everybody money motivated.

That's pretty good. That's the name of my next book. Because you don't get to choose, by the way.

It's like, you're so obsessed with money. I don't have a choice. I don't have a choice to be. That's a really great point. And yet the opposite is sold to us in culture. We're sold debt as freedom to live however you want, right?

That's right.

But you're actually right. Jade Warshaw, folks, write it down, put it out on social media. I think that was absolutely great. Oh, man, think about that for a little bit. I feel like the line from Lion King.

Not that one?

No. It's where the one lion says, Mufasa Mufasa's name in front of the hyenas, and one of them goes, Say it again. Mufasa.

Yeah. That's it.

That line? Yeah. That line had a little Mufasa on it. Say it again. This is The Ramsey Show. All right, let's cut to the chase. It's easy to get discouraged about crazy house prices and interest rates. But when you have the right real estate agent to help you buy and sell the right way, you'll have confidence to make smart decisions. Ramsey trusted agents aren't just experts who guide you through buying or selling. They're someone you can trust to have your back from the first call to closing day. Find a Ramsey trusted agent near you at ramseysolutions.

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Ramseysolutions.

Com/agent.

Welcome back, America. You have joined the Ramsey Show, where we talk with you about you, specifically your money, your work, and your relationships. I'm Ken Coleman. Jade Warshaw joins me. The phone number is 888-825-5225. Let's go down to Dayton Beach, Florida, the home of the Dayton 500, the Great American Race. Alan is there. Alan, how can we help? Hey, guys. Thanks for having me on. You bet. What's up?

I'm looking for some career advice. I am graduating chiropractic school in March, and I've been getting some offers, and I got my first offer, so I want to run it by you guys and see what you think.

I love it. Walk us through. What's the offer?

Yeah. So it's a salary position of 60K, and then there is a monthly bonus of 8% of collections based on collections above 45K a month. So when I'm in this negotiation stage, what do you guys recommend I should focus on? Should it be the bonus structure? Should it be the salary? What do you guys think?

I'd like to know more about the bonus. When they walk through this, or did they walk through what the averages are on how many times they're over the $45,000? Because if I understood this right, you don't get 8% unless they hit over $45 in billing.

Right.

Did you ask them?

I did not ask them, but just from... I'm precepting or doing my internship there. Just from gaging, it's a growing office. I want to say they make about 30K every month. With me coming on, they assume or hope that they're able to grow the practice even more.

This is new.

Yeah, but see, you're assuming. I don't like assuming. I want to get in and go, Okay, let's talk real numbers. When I come on board, how many patients do you expect for me to see? What do you think is realistic? I just walk through that. Just have them walk out and Hey, I just want to make sure I understand the bonus thing. How can I play into it? Because that's the other thing I'm wondering. Are they wanting you spreading the word a little bit? Because here's the deal. I don't know what a starting salary... To be fair, what I would do is I'd be looking in your area and I'd be looking at what starting salaries are for chiropractors right out of school. I'd want to see on that offer of 60K, just the base alone, is that low, medium, or high? I'd get educated on that. That's That's exactly where I'd start. Then I'd get the explanation on the bonus. If I can figure that out and go, Okay, what are the possibilities that we hit that? That could be interesting.

Glassdoor says between 63 and 110 per year in the state of Florida. Starting out. Yeah. Indeed also says between 67 and 110. I wonder if they're trying to fill that gap.

Do the math for me. Give me 8% Let's go conservative of 45,000. I know roughly what that is.

Let me- It's 450 times 8, basically. Yeah, I got it.

It's going to be somewhere in the four grand range. Sorry. Is that right, Alan? Am I saying that right?

It would be anything over 45.

Yeah, he doesn't get the 45. It's whatever's over. Let's say you earn 48,000. You get 8% of 3,000. 8% of 3,000. That's nothing.

Oh, I I apologize. Yeah, so based on what Jade found, even with the bonus, and let's say you hit that, tell me if I'm starting to be too conservative, maybe six months out of the year, and let's say that the average is 3,000 over using these numbers. Okay. Right? So three times, that's 16,000, and you're getting 8% of that. So yeah, it's really on the low end, feels like to me. Now, let's not just take... I mean, Jade's got it. I'm looking at it. But let's not just take those numbers the Internet at face value. Let's go dig in a little bit. Because it's your first offer, I'd like to see you be getting a little bit higher offer than that. On that bonus, conservatively, you're looking at maybe three to four grand above and beyond the 60. How do you feel about that? It's your life.

I feel like I'm in a position to really help the practice grow just from my expertise and what I'm passionate about. I feel I can add and market myself and market the practice even more, especially in the area. There's just an untapped population that they haven't gotten to yet.

I'm asking you, do you think that's a good offer?

I mean, I have a lot of debt, a lot of student loan debt, so it's a little tough for me to swallow that 60.

What's keeping you in Daytona? Can I ask that? Because I'm looking here and I'm looking at the highest paying cities for chiropractors in Florida, and I'm seeing that Pensacola is $96,000 a year or Jacksonville. I'm wondering if you're tied to Dayton.

Great suggestion. Alex, you called to say, What should I do? I certainly wouldn't. I'd try to get a few more offers. I love what Jade just said. I start going, Where can I go?

Yeah, especially with the debt. That's what's motivating this is, How much can we get more?

I'm afraid to ask. How much debt do you have?

It's 238,000.

Where are the Tums?

It's brutal.

It's brutal. Now I'm really on team Jade.

I'm looking anywhere in the country because I got to get a big shovel, which is your income, and dig out of this 200 grand as fast as possible, my man.

What I do like about what I see here is the top paying positions are in North Florida, which is far less expensive than South Florida right now. South Florida is crazy. You increase your income, you're increasing your cost of living, so it's a wash. But I feel like in North Florida, it'd be worth it for you or even going out of state to a... I would definitely search is all I'm saying because $238,000 of student loans, she ain't going away. That's not a Bill, that's a William.

If the highest paid offer I could get was in the middle of Wyoming, I'd go. I know. Nothing against Wyoming. Please don't send hate mail. I don't read it. But I'm going, I don't care how cold it is. It could be 200 below zero. Allen, I would get the biggest shovel possible to get… Because, listen, you can be a chiropractor anywhere you want to to our last segment talking about freedom, Jade.

Yeah, that's right.

I'd be shopping myself, young man.

Yeah, I understand. Thanks, I really appreciate.

Yeah, I really appreciate the call. Jade, this is why we tell people, don't go into debt.

I know. I'm just mad that you missed my joke.

Say it again.

I said that he has 238 $8,000 of debt. I said, That's not a Bill. That's a William.

Nice. I apologize. I apologize. I was still reeling.

It's a lot.

I was reeling from his reality.

This is what we talk about. I think So many people go into college, their professors, their guidance counselors, their family members are telling them, Hey, careers like these will ROI. You feel like that it's this given that, I can take out this debt. If I get my job, it'll just pay for itself. The thing that we have to tell ourselves is nothing pays for itself. You have to go out and work and pay for it. You don't just get the job and then hand you back all the money that you paid on your student loans. You have to go to work and clock in actual hours to make it pay for itself. That's not fun to do.

Okay, you're absolutely… While you were talking, you inspired me on the computer, so I was like, Let me just do a little search.

What did you find?

That there is a chiropractic school. I'm not going to say it because I don't want to endorse and I don't want to… There's a chiropractic school that is only charging $12,000 a year. Now, I don't know if they're cuckoo, quacky, which is why I'm not going to. You understand why? Yes.

But I'm just saying- There's ranges.

Because here's the deal. I love chiropractic care. You probably don't know this about me. I love the snap, crack, and the pop.

I feel like a million dollars. Are you cool with going to Dr. 12,000?

You know why I'm probably cool with it? Because you don't ask. Have you ever been to a chiropractor?

I'm not. I'm afraid. I have.

Oh, no, it's fantastic. I love it. Fantastic. In fact, I'll recommend. A nice to married couple that Stacey and I go to, all of our kids. It's great. But anyway, here's the point. I never asked them where they went to chiropractic school. I can tell whether or not they're cuckoo, they're quacks.

I mean, check the reviews is all I'm saying, and what you've done.

100%. They were highly recommended from people that we know and trust. This is how we all pick doctors.

That's right.

I guess my point is that no one cares how much your chiropractic school cost. They just want their back and neck to feel better. That's true. I need an adjustment now. All this talk about it.

I need a little adjustment. That's like that episode of- My neck feels a little stiff. That's that episode of Seinfeld where Kramer just does adjustments and he doesn't have the real education.

Alex Hearn gives me one in the back. He can pop my back. This is The Ramsey Show. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm Ken Coleman. Jade Warshaw joins me this hour, 888-825-5225. Is the number to jump in? Our scripture of the day comes from 1 Corinthians 15:58. Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord. Our quote of the day from, I think, one of the great voices about American liberty and freedom, and just great philosopher, Thomas Soul. He said, People say you're a very tough person. I'm not tough. Life is tough. I'm merely trying to quaint you with the facts. He's a no-nonsense guy, Thomas Soul. I like that. I like him, man. He's one of my favorite voices in the world. Fantastic, fantastic guy. All right, let's go to Veronica in Tampa, Florida. Veronica, how can we help?

Hi. Good afternoon. Thank you for taking my call. You bet. I'm calling because my husband and I are trying to figure out what's the best route for us to take to pay off our student loans. We have about $110,000 in student loans. I don't work outside of the home. I actually recently resigned to be a full-time stay-at-home parent, and we are also expecting our third child, so I don't anticipate on working for the next several months. My husband earns about 1.12 annually. That's before taxes. And we just are pretty overwhelmed with the total amount of our student loan debt. And we were discussing, should we sell our home and downside for the time? Should I find a job? Is the student loan debt the only debt that you have, or do you have other debts as well? No. We have a $12,000 car payment and 2,800 medical bills that we're slightly going to pay off this year. So our biggest concern is the student loans just because it's such a mountain. It's really big. Yeah.

I mean, it is. I want to know, what were you earning before you resigned?

Before I resigned, I was bringing home about 55,000, and my husband was still in around the 110 range. Okay. So combined, it was about 160, I believe.

So conceptually, I like to pull this out of the clouds and bring it down. Back when you were working, you guys were bringing in, you said 112 for him, $55 for you. You guys were bringing in $167,000, almost $170,000. You guys could have lived on $70 and been out of debt in a year with some side hustles.

Right. Now, when I was working, we did have to pay for childcare, and that was almost all of my income. Okay. We do budget every month, and we look at all the areas that we can cut back on. It just seems like there's still not enough to make the headways on our student loans.

Okay. Let me give you a plan, and we'll see if this strikes a chord with you. The way that we teach… Before I give you the plan, how much money do you have saved?

Probably 10,000 or 12,000.

Okay. So we'll say 11,000 saved.

That's the big one. Yeah. Okay.

So a couple of things about how we teach here. We teach a series of seven baby steps. Have you heard of them?

Mm-hmm.

Okay. The first baby step is you get a thousand bucks saved. Does that sound familiar? Right. Okay, so you know that one. Second one is we say to list your debts from smallest to largest and pay them off. That's called doing a debt snowball. You You pay minimum payments on everything, but you focus on the smallest debt so you can knock it out, pay it off, feel good about yourself, get that dopamine hit, and feel motivated to continue on. There's a purpose in doing it that way. The way that you talked about doing it was flipped on its head. When we see that, it's a lot harder to stay motivated because all you see is this giant mountain, and you don't have any trail of success to tell you that you can do it. You just have to stand there and go, All right, I guess I have to start climbing, where if you do it smallest to largest, you've proven, Hey, I can be successful. I paid off all those bills back there. I'll be able to pay this one-off. It's just going to take a little bit longer. So mentally, it really does help you.

I don't feel confident that I've convinced you to do it that way, but I really, really, really think you should.

We believe in the debt snowball method. So we've actually done it before. And before my husband Right when my husband and I got married, we combined everything. Okay, good. We had our student loans. We had our student loans. They were still there. We had just graduated college and everything, but we had thousands and thousands of dollars in consumer debt.

Okay. So you've made headway.

Yeah, we've made a lot of headway. We actually sold our first home, took the proceeds to pay off all of our consumer debt, downsized for about 18 months, had another child, and then we purchased a home, we put 20% down, and now we're like, okay, we feel like we didn't... Obviously, we didn't go all the way the first time because we still left our student loan.

But that's the difference. I'm calling this out because that's the difference. You guys didn't work the debt snowball. You sold a home and paid off that consumer debt. There's nothing wrong with that, but you never exercised that mental muscle of spending time and effort at one task and hammering away at that task and proving that over time, you can display that discipline. I think that's what's missing. Now you're looking at this 110 of student loan debt and you're like, Oh, crap. I don't have anything I can sell to make this go away. I'm actually going to have to do the hard, hard work. I will never stand here and tell you that it's easy because it is hard. I think that's where you guys are like, Dang it. We did all this sacrifice and we sold this house and we did this and we did that, and we still have debt. I think this time you are going to have to walk through that step. The great news about it is when you do it this way, you're never going to go back into debt again because you're going to go, Oh, my God, I never want to have to go through that again.

Go ahead, Ken. Veronica, have you and your husband sat down and just started mapping out, Okay, how long would it take us to pay this off? If we did this much a month, then a new total this much a month? It helps to break this big mountain apart and go, All right. I'm throwing this out there. If we did $1,000 a month, even if we had to really hustle to come up with $1,000 a month to knock this out, that's $12,000 a year. Then you start doing the math on that. Then what would it take to do this? You have some bigger months. We sell some other stuff and maybe put $2,000 in one month. Have you sat down and really said, Okay, what could we do right now? Then what would we have to do to be able to really put a good chunk on this, like a $3,000 a month, which now knocks it down to about a little bit less than three Have you done that?

Yeah, we've done that. We've done it on a high level. What's stopping us, what seems like the bottleneck is the fact that I'm not working, which is something that's very new to us.

Yes, but- It is my choice. Let I can encourage you, though. Your work before was literally going to childcare. It was almost like a net. It was like a net net. I actually don't think you should let that hold you up because, and I'm not trying to make you feel bad about all that time you work, but if your work is barely covering childcare for you to be able to work, then you weren't gaining anyway. I don't think that I want to get over as a mental hurdle. Does that make sense? Right. Now we go, wait a second. The good news is we're saving a bunch of money on childcare. You're at home with the baby. Now we go, how do we increase our income? My point is, you guys have got to sit down and go, All right, what can we do? Scraping. I'm sitting next to a lady who, she and her husband, scrapped and hustled and paid off almost half a million dollars. It's not easy. But, Jade, it can be done.

We're willing to do what we need to do, I think. This is definitely not a burden at all. This is a blessing seeing the fact that we're growing our family. It's just a thought of, okay, I'm set to give birth. My husband has trying to leave. He'll be home with us. We have two smart children already. So it's almost like putting a pause to this for the next 6-7 months because my husband works a lot now anyway.

Right.

I know. So he's probably… He can, but we don't want him to have to get another job right now. Right.

He's maybe pregnant and everything. Here's the thing. I don't know. How long until the baby comes? Real quick.

Four months. Okay.

Three to four months. You've got three to four months where he can be scrapping. You have the baby. He pulls back for a couple of weeks until everybody's home and well, and then you guys get after it. You got to get after it. You can do this, but you've got to make up your mind that you can.

Good show. Take a Jade Warshaw, James Childs, and all the guys in the booth. Thank you, America. This is The Ramsey Show. Dr. John Deloney here. Mental and emotional health challenges, broken relationships, it's all just part of life. Life, but they don't have to define you. The Dr. John Deloney Show is here to help. It's a collar-driven podcast where you can get practical advice on dealing with anxiety, loneliness, depression, relationship challenges, your kids, and so much more. Listen to questions from our callers, or if you're walking through a tough situation and need some help, give me a call. You are never meant to do life alone, and that's what this podcast is all about. Follow along on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or the Ramsey Network app. Remember, you're worth being well.