Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey personality number one best selling book. Author and host of a very hot YouTube podcast program on the Ramsay networks called the Dr. John Deloney show. He's my co host today. The phone number is triple 8825-5225 Sabrina starts off this hour in Tampa, Florida. Hi, Sabrina. How are you?

I'm doing better than I deserve as well. I can't believe you finally get to settle this for my husband and I.

Once and for all.

So I get to put on my referee's jersey, get out my whistle. Marital referee, Dave.

Absolutely.

And you've been with us since our engagement. Because we did SpU as a part of our marriage counseling. So we have every dollar. We do the budget meetings. We paid off our house last march.

So you guys already know the answer to this question, whatever it is.

That's the thing.

I think I do know the answer. I know he knows the answer, but he has these external things. So our net worth is $800,000. But my husband is ready to buy his dream truck.

And I know you say wait until.

Your net worth is at least a million dollars. We bring in about two hundred and.

Fifteen k a month. A truck would be between 15.

You mean a year? You mean a. A year year?

Yeah, absolutely.

I was about to buy a truck. Okay. Yeah. At 2.5 million annual income, I'm ready to go. Okay. All right. Anyway. But anyway, $215,000 a year. You're still doing good. Okay.

Yeah.

We already put in 15% for retirement.

And how much is the truck?

The truck will be 50 to 60k.

Okay. So what is it?

It's going to probably be a Silverado. He's torn between the Silverado or. Honestly, Dave, I feel so embarrassed. What is the Ford something?

F 150 or something?

Repent.

Yeah, ma'am.

F one pence. Sabrina, you can't call about the truck. Man's truck and not know what the man's truck is. It's just wrong. Okay. Bless your heart. This is wonderful. Okay, so you're out of debt. You have the money to pay cash for the truck. The only argument is 800 versus a million.

Right.

Okay. And so what's your home worth?

Our home is worth a little over 300k. It varies. On zillow, between 300, 330.

Okay. And you're in Tampa, Florida, and you're adding 15%. So you're adding $60,000 a year. Not counting growth to your 400 and 120. So, in three years, you'd be there. If there's no growth in the stock market. So you're millionaires in 18 months from now. Roughly.

That's crazy. That's wild and exciting.

Yeah, that's what the math says. Okay. That's good for you all. How old are you?

I'm 35 and he's 37.

You guys rock.

You're so smart.

You all rock. You all got it to yourself.

I didn't give you any money.

No, you did.

I just showed you how to do it.

Sabrina, what denomination are you guys? Oh, I know that. I'm just trying to figure out. You sound like you come from a very legalistic background.

Oh, my gosh.

You know me so well.

I'm scared.

All right. Dave will give you the answer, and then I'll see if I can give you a workaround, because my church is all over the. I'm just kidding. Go ahead, Dave.

So, the concept is, and the reason we put a million dollars on there, is you need to have a really strong net worth and be in a really strong financial position in order to be able to lose as much money as you're going to lose. When you drive a brand new truck off the lot, when the sound goes blump. Bloom. When you go into the street on a Ford F 150, that's 60 grand. Or a nice silverado, that's 65 or 70,000. You just lost $15,000. When it goes. Bloom. Bloom.

Golly.

That's what it costs when you drive it into the street. So you got to be able to absorb that blow and it not change your life at all. Most people do that crap while they're broke, middle class people, and they. I need a truck. I deserve a truck because I work hard. You don't deserve squat. You don't work hard enough. And you hadn't done a good job yet. So that's who we're talking to. We try to put a million dollars up there, because at a million dollars net worth, at 35 years old, making 215, you can absorb a $15,000 blow. Right? That's where the concept comes from. So, really, what we need to understand is the concept under the principle rather than the legalistic number. Because if it was 1.1 or 900 or 800, it doesn't really matter. What matters is the concept is you can absorb the blow. So if Sharon and I were doing this and it was me wanting a truck, which is very possible that that conversation has occurred, because I drove my raptor here today, so there you go.

We heard it coming like eight blocks away.

That's a good redneck truck, man. I'm just saying, you got to make an announcement when you come around the corner. All right, so if we were doing this, we would probably say, all right. The good news is the principle that's in place made us stop and think, are we wise? Okay. So the good news is you're wise, both of you. You've done a great job with your money. You're incredible. If you buy this truck, it's not going to destroy your life. Okay? And we set out on a journey following a set of principles and guidelines that got us here. Deviating from those is kind of damaging to your psyche. It feels like you cheated. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

So, technically, financially, you could buy the truck and you wouldn't notice. I worry more about you deviating from this and saying, okay, I got the cheat code. Right. I got the. So you could buy it today. It wouldn't be a problem. So what Sharon and I would do with both of those things in mind, the concept matters more than anything else. And the deviation scares me more than the technical math on it scares me. And so what we would do is we would probably land in the middle. We'd say, okay, we're not going to do it this year. We're going to watch the stock market and what it does with our 401k. We're going to watch our zillow or whatever. Probably something more accurate than zillow on my valuation of my real estate. And if we get up in the 900s in the next 18 months, I'll buy a truck. We might cheat in the middle, probably meet in the middle is probably what we would do. Okay. But I don't get to blow my whistle, because I'm not going to yell at you if you do it today, and I'm not going to yell at you, and I'm not going to say you're super extra smart if you wait till it's exactly a million, because there's nothing magic about the million.

What was magic is we made you pay attention. What was magic is we gave you a plan that you believed in and you executed on it. What was magic is you got a large enough net worth that you can absorb the blow. That's the magic that makes sense. And we didn't lose any of the magic if you buy something today.

Got it.

I absolutely love that plan. And the one caveat I would add to it is, does it have to be a 2024 does a 2023 or 2022 get you there? Where somebody else get you? Get this amazing.

If you want to do a 23.

You can do today f 150. Somebody else has already eaten that 15k for you, and you buy a car with 9000 miles on it, somebody returned it and you're good to go.

I will tell you this, I'm on my fourth raptor, so you're going to do it again anyway. So you could do a 23 and in two years go do a brand new one. And that would solve John. You're smart trying. That's why we got you around here, man. That's a better solution than all my meandering around the barn six times. This is the Ramsay show, guys. It's no secret that the real estate market is weird right now. So go with a mortgage company you can trust to have your back. Churchill mortgage. Churchill is Ramsey trusted because they're stable, reliable and focused on you. At a time when a lot of companies are being bought out or going out of business, count on Churchill mortgage to stick around. They've been doing things the right way for over 30 years, and they'll keep doing them the right way for 30 more. Get started@churchillmortgage.com.

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Dr. John Deloney Ramsay personality, bestselling author and of course, host of the Dr. John Deloney show, which you need to tune in and check out on the Ramsey networks. Zachary is with us. He's in St. Louis. Hi, Zachary. How are you? I'm doing well. I'm doing well.

How are you guys doing?

Better than we deserve, sir. What's up?

Well, I had a question for you. I'm actually a pastor over here at a small town church, and I just want to say I very much appreciate all that you do.

Thank you.

But one question that's come up for me is I often hear you use the phrase, the borrower is slave to the lender. And I definitely agree with that principle in many ways. But then on the other end, I noticed that when it comes to a mortgage, you are okay borrowing in that instance, which seems almost to betray that principle a little bit. And I guess I was just curious on your reasoning as to why you think it's okay to borrow in that instance. But then when it comes to something like a car, especially for someone like me, I live a little bit in the country where I'm at so it's a little bit more difficult. A car is almost a requirement.

Pastor, that is a wonderful question. Yeah, it's a really good question. Of course, you're quoting the scriptures, proverbs 22 seven. The rituals over the poor, and the borrower is slave to the lender. And this is a biblical principle that we're violating when we say it's okay to take out a mortgage. And that's your point. And you're correct completely on that. Or we tell people it's okay to do that. So are you 26?

I'm actually, like, 31.

31.

I had to think about that for a second.

Okay. That's okay. You lose count around 30. It happens. I'm on the 34th anniversary of my 30th birthday. All right, so the answer to your question is, it is the only hypocritical advice we give on this show. It's the only thing that was hypocritical. We give on this show. It's the only thing we tell people it's okay to do. That I never do. I went broke in my 20s as I was a baby Christian. I had just met God, and I discovered in that process a guy teaching what the Bible said about money named Larry Burkett. And I said, I'm going to follow what the Bible says. I'm never borrowing money again. And I've never borrowed money again. I don't borrow money for anything, ever for any reason, under any circumstances. Everything else I tell people on the show to do, I do exactly what I say to do. Allowing people to take out a mortgage without me yelling at them, it's the only time that my advice is inconsistent with my life. Does that make sense?

Right.

And it's completely fair for you to call me out on it, and then I'll answer your question. But I wanted to caveat that and say, I don't borrow money for anything. And sometimes when I get a question where it's kind of borderline whether they have to borrow or not, I tell them that story. I say, hey, I don't borrow for anything. And I recommend that that is the best way. If you follow biblical principles in your marriage, your marriage is going to prosper. If you follow biblical principles, raising your kids, your kids are going to be amazing. If you follow biblical principles in your mental health and your emotional state, you're going to prosper. And the same is true in your money and in your leadership. If you're running a church, running a business, same thing is true. So I evangelical man, I believe if the bible says it and you do. It's a good thing. Right? So I'm with you on that. Now, the reason that I lighten up when someone calls in on that is two things. One is I can pretty much talk you out of or call you stupid taking out a car loan because cars go down in value, the interest rate is higher, and there's no correlation between buying cars with payments and becoming wealthy.

Very few millionaires will tell you that. Oh, the best thing I ever did was agree to borrow on a car because I needed a car. Because I was out in the country and I was driving a long way and I needed a car. No, millionaires told us that when we studied 10,000 of them. So the fruit is not there. I'm a fruit inspector. Okay. The second thing is millionaires do tell us that they borrowed to buy a house many times, and when they got it paid off, they never borrowed money again after that. They're debt averse, but not completely mortgage averse. So the data is in that millionaires do that, even though I would tell you the best way to do it is save up and pay cash for it. It's hard to get people to save up for ten years to buy a house. I can get them to save up three years to buy a car or to 18 months to buy a car, but I've had trouble doing that, so I make that violation. But I also often tell people all the time when I say that no more than a 15 year mortgage, no more than a payment of a fourth of your take home pay.

You probably heard me say that, Zachary, and then get the stupid house paid off as fast as you can. Because the shortest distance between where you are and wealth is debt freedom, and that's consistent across the thing. But you're exactly right. But car is a completely different thing. Car is the largest thing we buy that goes the wrong direction, it goes down in value. And when you finance a car, you're just begging to be middle class the rest of your life, financially, mathematically. Well.

And most people are stupid enough to take a car note on, like, a $30,000 car when they have no money either.

Exactly. Yeah, like everybody listening right now, just about. You're right.

I did have one other thing. And by the way, I want to say I support everything you're doing wholeheartedly, including, like, I've been using myself many of these steps. Being a small town pastor, you don't get paid a ton of money and you have kids. So I've actually had to use these things for myself. So again, I want to say thank you. The one other thing I noticed, though, as someone who was new to the Dave Ramsey program in many ways and was new to those steps, is that I didn't hear a lot of talk about creating a buffer. So as someone who was new, I didn't have any money in my checking account, right? Because I was using credit cards, and then I was paying off those credit cards with the money in my account. So I never really had money in my account, and I was in this endless cycle, obviously, like a lot of people were. So one thing that I thought just to consider is that in those baby steps, I almost thought there should be another baby step about creating a buffer, because people need two. They don't just need a $1,000 emergency fund.

I thought that was the buffer whenever I was new to the Dave Ramsey program and the Dave Ramsey baby steps. But there's also this idea of making sure you have a buffer because you're going to have auto payments on preschool and mortgages and all types of stuff.

Well, that should be part of your budgeting. Zachary? Budgeting is cash flow planning, and so you're planning to not take more money out of your checking account than you have in it. That's your buffer. And you can put $100 buffer in there if you want, but that's fine. You don't need any more than that. There's nothing wrong with that. But you don't need a $2,000 buffer because you're incompetent at budgeting. You need to have the budget date debt dialed in. We're paying. The auto payment comes out here. This other payment comes out here. The paycheck planning aspect, it's called. And if you use the every dollar app shows you how to do that. And so you need to plan out every situation there. But we're honored to have you as a new listener.

That is something that man that rings home to me, because here's what I fell in the trap of doing. My wife and I would make a budget, and then we would check our checking account to see where we were. We shouldn't do that, because then I'd be like, oh, I can get a little more groceries.

Because the checking account is not an indicator if you're on your budget.

That's exactly right. And so then that buffer he's talking about, then all of a sudden, the school would pull their tuition on the fourth instead of the fifth. And because I was not following the budget map we'd laid out, but I was checking the checking account part a.

Budget map is a plan. And you would never plan to spend money that you don't have in your account. Right? So don't plan to spend money you don't have in your account. And your need for a buffer goes away. Other than a common sense of 50 or $100 or something for slippage or something, being off $0.20 or something. You don't want to do that. We don't want to to the penny thing. But this concept of slosh, that covers my lack of detail and sticking to the detail. You don't need slosh. That's right. That's not good. And a lot of people do that. So the trick is the thing that happens is your brain. And you and I have been talking about this in a bunch of other areas, too. The neuroplasticity, your brain rewires itself when you start making every single dollar come out, when it's supposed to give every dollar of your income a name. Before the month begins, you and your spouse spit shake and pinky swear that we're sticking to this contract that we just wrote down. Something happens and changes from that chaotic, wild man that you were before. And it takes about 90 days for that rewiring to completely occur.

And that neuroplasticity, it changes your behavior. It's behavior transformation. And so the detail matters in that situation because you're forcing your brain to work really hard. Yeah, that's what you want. This is the Ramsay show. If current times have shown us anything, it's that the least expected events can and will happen, and we have to deal with it. That's why everyone who has a family counting on them needs term life insurance. For over 25 years, the only insurance company I've recommended is Xander Insurance. Not only because they search all of the top term life plans to find you the best rates, but over the years, they have constantly changed and updated their systems to make the whole process simpler and easier. To get the protection needed, you can now apply with a completely touchless experience with everything being done either over the phone or the Internet. They also have plans with super competitive rates that don't require an exam, allowing you to skip a step and get the coverage you need faster. Go to xander.com or call 803 564282. Great rates and a simple process mean there's no excuse to not get this done, people.

Dr. John Deloney, Ramsay personality, is my co host today. Thank you for joining us, America. We're glad you're here. Open phones at triple 8825-5225 now, Dr. John, he just. Ramsay. Networks just broke a record last week. Last week the Dr. John Deloney show had 12 million views on YouTube in one week. 500,000 hours watched in one week and 40,000 new subscribers in a week. That's a lot of human beings.

My mom retired and I think she's just at home creating new accounts and hitting refresh, refresh, refresh.

40,000 of them.

She's got a lot of. She's quick, man.

She's quick. She's quick on the keyboard.

No, that's a wild. I'm glad people are tuning in, man.

Yeah, well, you're helping a lot of people.

Pretty wild.

A lot of relationship questions and addiction questions and boundary questions and marriage questions and some bizarre ones. That thing, I caught a glimpse. I haven't heard the whole call yet. I've got to get it downloaded in the truck on the way home. I listened to it, but the one that dropped with the woman who her husband gave her an ancestry.com and she discovers that her dad is not her dad, that it's the local priest is her dad.

Yeah.

That is a hairy phone call.

It's tough. And here's the deal.

Some of those Dr. Phil or something.

Well, it can feel Jerry Springer if you're not careful. And I think the difference is. Man 23 andme if you go down and read some of the articles, it's happening all over the country. People are finding out family secrets and family stories that for generations before would just lay quiet. And people lose their faith because a pastor does something or a minister does something or a leader does something, and it's hard to come back. And so I think sometimes the sensational calls feel like, oh, my.

Jerry.

Jerry. But there's some humanity in there with a hurt and pursing that says, I thought that was my dad and it's not.

Yeah.

And why didn't my dad come get me?

Because he didn't know.

Or maybe he did makes it. But I think all of us have that question, like, why did my dad show up or why did my mom? So I think there's some humanity in all those calls.

Yeah. Oh, definitely. That was just wild. Yeah. I thought, man, I didn't know if that. I knew it was going to take a twist and then it went twisty. Twisty? Yeah, it was crazy. Yeah. So I guess that's why there's 12 million views last week.

Well, and the lesson is don't do genetic testing. You never get good. I'm just kidding.

I'm just kidding.

I did it.

Only bad things. I did it. It was good. I will tell you, your family tree.

Fork Dave, you'll get a kick out of this. My doctor, who, he ran the genetic test for me. It wasn't with 23 me, it was with his special program. And he called and said, do you struggle walking past a bowl of candy in an office? And I said, did my wife call you? What happened? And he's like, I'm just looking at your genetics.

And, whoa.

And I was like, yeah, we should probably talk.

This doctor, man, he's got insight.

We should talk.

That wasn't a DNA test. That was more than a DNA test. Yeah. Cindy's in Casper, Wyoming. Hi, Cindy. Welcome to the Ramsey show. Hello.

Thank you so much for both of you, for what you do. And I'm one of the Dr. John Deloney listeners, so thank you as well to you.

Thank you.

I'm excited and excited but nervous to talk to you guys today, but I have things kind of lined out, I hope.

Okay, how can we help?

All right, so I unfortunately got a divorce about a year ago, and I am still in the house making the payment. I'm wondering what I should do in the next six months after my daughter leaves for college, because I still owe my ex money from the house. So I had some questions and some thoughts about that.

So the need to protect her by keeping the home goes away when she leaves. Correct?

Correct.

And that might have been some of the motivation early in this game. How much do you owe the ex?

Well, the way the divorce decree is written is by 2026, I need to pay him half of the appraised market value at the time I sell it, but it's based on the amount owned on the house when we divorced. So I'm making all the payments on the house. So when we divorced.

So if you did it today, what do you owe him today?

If I were to do it today, depending on. I haven't actually got an appraisal, but I'm going to guess between 75 and $100,000.

Okay. Do you have any money, which should be half?

No, I'm on baby step three.

Good. Okay. And what's your household income?

My household income is about $70,000 off of my full time job. And then I also have side hustles that bring in between five and $10,000 a year.

And you're getting ready to be, in a matter of months, an empty nester divorcee.

Correct.

Okay. All right. Is there a reason to keep the house?

Before I started listening to you.

Six months ago, my reason would have been the interest rate is really low because, of course, we refinanced during that time. It's a great house, I have great neighbors. The location is 90% of the time. Awesome. And I'm just comfortable here. There's really no reason to leave except for the debt piece of it.

Okay. Because the question is, mathematically, it doesn't sound like keeping it is going to be a blessing. It sounds like it's going to be real tight.

Yes.

That's part of what you refinance it. Those payments on your income are going to be tight. Agreed.

Agreed.

So it's got to be a real reason to do this, other than it's part of a picture that is now shattered.

And, Cindy, I'm going to ask Dave a question on your behalf. Dave, for every payment she makes of a $1,000, since he gets appraised, value minus sales price.

No, minus the old mortgage amount. The original mortgage amount.

Original mortgage.

He's not gaining ground while she's paying payments. Okay.

I thought he was gaining half of every payment.

He's only gaining the value increase, correct?

That's correct.

Yes. Only gaining the value increase, not the mortgage reduction. Okay.

No. And the other thing I'm up against.

Is I don't want to leave my.

Community that I'm in. And I've been looking at houses, kind of just keeping an eye out for what's out there. And with the increase in the rates as well, I'm struggling to find something that's in with that 25% of my take home.

Well, Cindy.

And something I'd want to move into.

Cindy, here's the hardest thing about divorce that they don't tell you. It blows up every single corner of your life.

Right.

And it's almost impossible just to extract this relationship out of your life and keep your community, keep your geographical location, keep your payments, keep your neighbors. It does happen sometimes, but they don't tell you.

It's fairly rare.

It blows up everything. And what I see drown people is them trying to keep parts of their life shackled to themselves, and they drag this into their future, and it ends up collapsing them under a payment you can't afford or under. You're going to go buy a new house in the same neighborhood that's going to be way more expensive on a monthly basis, et cetera, et cetera. It's just a matter of exhaling and realizing, oh, everything changed.

Right?

Yeah. You got to digest that. Two decision making tools I use in situations like this or other things is, number one, I look into the future and I say, what is the best decision for me 20 years from today? How old are you?

I am 46.

Okay, so when you're 66, what decision makes you really like the 46 year old Cindy as being wise? What did you do? You look back and you go, God, that was so smart. Or, God, that was so dumb. I wish I hadn't done that. And sometimes if I look that far forward, it kind of magnifies this, and it becomes obvious. All right, the second thing I do is I use a sunk cost analysis, and you probably heard me do this. You said you listen, and that is, if I didn't already own it and I had the pile of money in the middle of the table, would I come buy this house?

Right?

And probably the answer to that one is no. If you were in a one bedroom apartment right now and had that equity in, your husband was gone, your ex husband's gone, he's paid off. He's gone. And you had your portion of the money in the middle of the kitchen table, and you're in a one bedroom apartment, you probably wouldn't come buy this house. So you're defaulting backwards into it. You're lobstering into it. You're running backwards into it, rather than making a proper forward based decision. I don't think it's the end of the world if you keep it. But I think it's going to be tight, and I'm not sure it's worth it, is what I'm saying. This is the Ramsey show.

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Dr. John Deloney Ramsay personality is my co host today. Open phones at John, our last caller was you and I talked about it during the break briefly, was very level headed. She'd been through a lot of pain, and yet there was a wisdom she was not way super emotional about. She was really trying to be wise. And it's not always the case when I'm talking to somebody in a situation who's been through that much pain. Their daughter's leaving home for college right after a divorce. I mean, she's got a lot of.

Tearing, losing her friends, losing her community, losing her house, losing her husband. Yeah. You can always tell when someone's asking you a question because they want you just to confirm what they're asking. And she was, or, I need some help.

Yeah, she really did try.

Tell me the hard stuff.

Yeah. Really trying to figure it out. That's a really good place for her. But it's also a jumping off point. I will tell you this. It's one of the harder things in a one on one coaching session that we've had to deal with or even here on the air, is in a divorce situation. And it's not a moral construct. It's a math thing. Whether it's right or not, we can discuss. But generally, in our culture today, still, ladies make less than gentlemen. The income of males is still higher than females. Not necessarily because of the jobs, not necessarily because a lot of different factors enter into that. But the fact is math. Yeah. The fact is, the mom, generally, after the divorce, has a greater reduction in income than the husband. Okay. And she generally, mama bear tries to keep the kids have already had the pain of dad leaving. Now she doesn't want to have to have them move out of their bedroom, their next door neighbor friends that they play kickball with and pull them out of their schools. And so she'll do anything to keep them in a house that there's no mathematical way she can afford.

And I've watched newly single moms, particularly with young children, that lady's last child was going off to college. She had that benefit to this decision. It made this decision easier. But when you got an eight year old and a seven year old and a five year old that are crying, where's daddy? And don't take me out of my kindergarten class. That are, I love my Miss Jones or whatever. Right. And you're going to try to find a way to make a payment that does not fit in those numbers. And usually it sets them back as much as a decade financially, instead of just going. Like you said, it sucks.

Everything's blown up.

Everything's blown up, and we've got to move to a cheaper house. And there was that time that that thing happened, and families in other generations just did that. The husband died, and so the family lost the farm, or there wouldn't be.

Somebody that loaned them that much money for that long, et cetera.

Right?

Yeah. There wasn't an option. They were forced into housing that they could afford. And it's so freaking emotionally painful, though, because on the short term, it just rips everything out by the hair. But on the long term, it's the only thing you can do to recover.

Yeah. I've gone to telling parents, the greatest gift you can give your kid is not the schools and the stuff. It's a regulated you.

And so freaked out single mom trying to pay a payment she can't pay, working six jobs.

It's an electric.

So I keep you in a house, so everything's okay, but now everything's not okay because you're freaked out.

Everybody lives in a bug zapper then, right?

Exactly.

Versus a mom who's able to laugh and breathe because she can make the two bedroom apartment payments. Is that ideal? No, it's the worst, man. It's the worst.

I can afford the spaghetti and the peanut butter and jelly, but now we.

Can laugh, we can breathe. We can go for walks out in the park. And your kids nervous systems will adjust to that.

Yeah. More than they will.

The chaos. To try to keep everything as similar as it was.

The sameness is not the answer.

Right. Yeah.

Because nothing's the same.

Everything's gone.

If you can afford it and want to stay, that's fine. I don't have a problem with that. But I will tell you that probably seven out of ten times, I'm looking at the numbers with somebody in that situation. They got to move, and I got to be the one to tell them.

Yeah. Divorce is just one of those things that's so pervasive. It happens so often that everybody thinks.

It'S just going to continue on.

We don't realize how painful it is and how disruptive it is to every corner of our life.

It's very real. Haley is with us in Oklahoma. Hi, Haley. Welcome to the Ramsay show.

Hey, Dave.

Hey, what's up?

Okay, so my husband and I just really don't want to be stuck in middle class the rest of our life. We've been married ten years now. We did your baby steps. One, I think we made it to two, maybe at the beginning, probably like four years ago. My husband lost his job during COVID and we moved from northwest Arkansas over to Oklahoma. And the current job he has now, he's making 65,000 a year. We live paycheck to paycheck. He has a brand new truck that is required by the job. It has to be five years or newer. Really just trying to look for another job. He's been actively looking and applying. So my question is, how do we get him a good job to support our family? We are currently in. We're fixing to have a fourth baby. We have outgrown our one vehicle that we do have up, this truck. We're going to need a newer vehicle. We feel like it's this recurring mountain of living paycheck to paycheck and trying to set back money. And when he lost his job during COVID we had money set back in savings and depleted all of that because he was just working ods and end jobs, trying to make ends meet.

We both went to college, both have bachelor's degrees.

What's your degree in?

It's just poultry science and ag business.

Okay. And you have four littles at home?

Yes.

And that's your job?

Three littles. I'm pregnant with the fourth one?

No, three and a half plus three and a half. Okay. And that's your full time job. Okay. And his degree is in what?

Same thing.

And you've got how much debt? The truck is. How much debt?

The truck is about $38,000 left.

Okay. And what else?

We have about, I think maybe $5,000 more. One of my student loans that no, I was going to get. We got that last year.

How much is it?

It's $4,500.

And he has a $48,000 truck. And what else?

And then we have $1,000 on a credit card.

And that's it.

Okay. All right. You realize that you all lied to yourself about the truck, right?

Yeah.

Okay. Because you can buy a five year old truck a lot cheaper than he bought. That met the guideline. That met the guideline for work.

Yeah. It has to be five years anniversary.

And do they pay him in addition to $65,000 for the truck?

Very little. He gets, like, so many cents per mile, it does not match up at all.

Okay.

So his truck, it's only good for another two years before it falls out of the requirements. And so obviously, he's looking for another job to get out of that and just sell his truck and be able to pay cash. Something for us to think.

Yeah, I mean, you can make 55,000 a year and be way ahead of this. This is a bad deal. Yeah, really bad deal. How big a company is this that he works for.

Decently?

They got 1000 employees, 100 employees. What?

Probably more than a couple of thousand. They're in three, four, or I think four different states. They're one of the top producers.

Yeah. I think he needs to get a job. Yeah, that's part of the answer. And you can't lie to yourself next time and say that a $48,000 truck fits your world because it doesn't fit your world. Just because somebody told you that you had to do that to get a job, you just don't take that job. That's not a job. That was a no that you said yes to.

Yeah.

Because you were desperate and scared. You had little to feed. I understand, but that was a no. You should have done something. You've been better off doing almost anything else. That was a trap. Once he starts getting a sniff on a couple of other positions, I would tell him to go to his supervisor and say, I can't stay anymore, and finance a truck for this multimillion dollar company. Yeah, this multimillion dollar company wants me to buy them a truck, and I can't afford it. I have four kids to feed, and you don't pay me enough to finance a truck for you. So screw this.

How do you set money back to do that, even when you do get a new job and living paycheck to paycheck?

Yeah. Well, you get the truck sold, and the only answers are three things. One is expenses go down, two is income goes up, and three is we manage the snot out of the money we have using a detailed budget. That part you're probably not doing. Probably doing a decent job of what you got. You're not flush or anything like that. You're not wasteful. But you could tighten this up a lot. And then you guys got to work on getting your income up, and that includes you doing something from home. This is the Ramsey show, live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions. It's the Ramsey show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey personality, is my co host today. As we talk about your life and your money. It's a free call, and some say the advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. The phone number is triple 8825-5225 that's triple 8825-5225 Linda is with us in Seattle. Hi, Linda. Welcome to the Ramsay show.

Hi. Thank you very much for taking my call.

Sure. What's up?

So I have a 26 year old son, and he's getting a PhD. And he's a great kid. Love him to death. Great heart. He doesn't make a ton. He's on a budget. He's very aware of his expenses. He's in a low rent area. The problem is he doesn't always have enough money to make ends meet without going into debt. My question is, should I be supplementing him monthly? I can't afford it. Or should I wait until he has a car repair and then give him that or a computer repair? I'm trying to get him on his feet. He has four more years of his program. I don't want to enable him, but we both don't want him. He knows we don't want him to go into debt.

What's the program?

It's an environmental science program.

He just start.

He's one year in.

It's a five year program for a PhD.

Yeah, so they are, I guess. Here's my for what?

What's he going to do?

Well, he's probably going to be working in a nonprofit when he's done. He loves what he does. He's doing a lot of research. He does get paid. He has good benefits, medical.

He's going for five years to get a job that doesn't pay well.

Well, I'm hoping he will make enough money when he gets out to support himself.

Well, I hope so. After five freaking years working on a PhD. But, I mean, his whole goal here is to work in an underpaid job. That's what he's working towards.

He might own the nonprofit. Actually, when he's done.

Well, then we would call that a for profit. Why does it have to be a nonprofit? I'm so confused.

Is he a ta?

Yes.

Okay. Does he have some restrictions on his work schedule?

Yeah, like, he can't really go out and get another job right now it says who?

Is that program specific? Because here's why. I got a second PhD while working as an associate dean, dean of students at a law school, while also being a parent, while also working in the graduate school, teaching classes for extra money on top of all the other things. Now, I had a heroic wife that kept the house duct tape together and everything moving and running. But I hear grad students a lot telling me my first instinct is I did and you can. And I had to go see clients on top of that. I mean, I had to see my clients at 06:00 in the morning or seven in the morning or seven at night because I had to go to my full time job and be a parent. And so if he's got ta responsibilities, that's 20 hours a week and he gets his benefits and his tuition discount and his lab work, but there's nothing to say he can't go work at a restaurant and go get a full time job somewhere else in an adjacent field that maybe is going to lead to career opportunities bigger than I just want to go. Whatever. You see what I'm saying?

I guess I just don't buy it. Now if you are getting a PhD in psychology, they will tell you you cannot work another job or law school, you can't work another job because it's too demanding. Cool, fine. The payoff on the other end of those jobs is very different than what you're describing as well. And so I guess I just have a hard time with the well, he just can't because he's busy. I don't buy it. You figure out the time. You figure out the time. And if you can't, then you all have to as a family say, okay, he can't afford this as a family. Are we going to subsidize this for the next four years? Because this problem doesn't go away.

If you create sustainability by you subsidizing it, then it's a four year promise because we don't have an exit ramp to you sustaining it or to you subsidizing it. Right, right.

Okay.

And personally, I don't like the problem specific. You just call us if you have a problem because that's going to lead to a lot of resentment and well, did you do that? I'd much rather prefer, hey, we're going to agree to cover your rent.

Yeah, I think I would do the monthly amount if you're going to promise to do, if you're going to do that for four years. But then on top of that answer to your question, we're giving you two pieces of advice. The first one is John saying he needs to explore work avenues because lots of lots, most people who went to college worked. Most people. It's very unusual for someone even working on a PhD program to not work and work a lot. I worked 40 to 60 hours. I graduated in four years with a 2.97 because I was at work all the time and I got out of school. I wanted out of school. I was paying for it. I didn't have any desire to hang around that place. I wanted out. And so I want to quit writing them checks and start receiving checks. That was my goal. So that's the first piece of advice. The second piece of advice is I think there's a little bit more if I'm his mom and dad before I start writing them checks, because basically I'm endorsing this path. I want to know more about where this is taking me.

Because education for education's sake is a bad plan when you're this broke.

It's a luxury.

It's a luxury. And education that's not for luxury is for return on investment. I'm not hearing a good return on investment here in what you're describing. And so if you're going to go an extra five years to school, beyond a normal four or five years now we're talking about a decade you've been in school, then you should have pay north of six figures day one, because you can graduate with a four year degree in logistics right now and walk out making 90 to 100. You can be a diesel mechanic with a two year degree and make 90 to 100. So what's your ROI on this extra? Five years of phding? And it needs to be more than I want to be called doctor.

Oh, absolutely. And I've got friends who are into environmental issues, and then they have their day job, and then they work on these things on the weekends. They go to presentations. If you're passionate about something, you can study it all day long. But you don't take five years off of life to go do this thing unless it's leading towards an attainable goal.

The PhD should be a requirement for additional income that you wouldn't have without the PhD. Yeah.

Or licensure or something.

It takes you to licensure, which takes you to additional income. You pass the bar, right? Hello. Something like that. It needs to take you. So I really want to understand more about that if I'm in your shoes, because I love my son. This is the Ramsay show. Dr. John Deloney. Ramsay personality is my co host today. Open phones at. Thanks for joining us. Alex is with us in Chattanooga. Hi, Alex. Welcome to the show.

Hey, Dave, how are you today?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

Hey, love the show. Love the network actually came to my debt free screen with you a couple of years ago. So thank you for you and your team and all that you do.

Thank you now.

Thank you. So I think I know the answer to this, but I kind of want to get to, I guess, kind of a second question, if I can. I have an opportunity.

I'm a registered nurse.

I'm 35, single, no kids, out of debt. There's an opportunity for me to stop travel nursing and relocate to San Francisco for a staff position I would be making with no overtime, about 225. And I've talked to some people. They can make about up to 300,000 a year with overtime. Like I said, I understand it's San Francisco. It's very expensive and all of those things. But just with traveling, there's just a lot of uncertainty. Your contract can be canceled at any time. The pay rates have gone down since COVID I'm kind of tired of being on the road, kind of all those things. I've talked to people that have been out there and they like it. California does have some strong unions. And with that, you have your guaranteed staffing ratios. Because how can we help? I'm sorry.

I know.

In San Francisco, is it crazy to think to move out there for. What's the high cost of living out there?

Well, you've obviously analyzed that 300,000 in San Francisco is not 300,000 in Columbus, Ohio, or Dallas, Texas. Number one, you got a 14% tax now, income tax there that you don't have in other states. And you've got an extremely high cost of living. San Francisco is one of the most expensive cities to live in, in the world. And so as long as you've analyzed all of that and you still want to go, I'm not going to tell somebody not to do what they want to do. That's what you want to do.

Okay.

There's nothing wrong with what you're analyzing. What is interesting to me, though, is this what I might think about if I'm you. Because I feel like the fact that you're asking us the question, it's almost like you've got some hesitation, like you're not really complete gun ho. Right. So one of the things I always like to do is I make better decisions if I have lots of options. You presented me only two options. A declining income with travel and your declining desire to travel versus San Francisco. Those are only two options. What about a third or a fourth or a fifth option? That includes other cities at 200,000. That nets out of lifestyle and taxes? About the same. And it's a quality of life you like, more or less. I don't know. But it feel like you have to take this because it's your only exit from the road. And that's simply not accurate.

Yes, sir, I completely agree. Yeah. I'm essentially looking forward to. Like I said, I'm single. I want to go somewhere and settle, set some roots, and so I can. As a nurse, I do have the luxury of going those I nursing pay. Like I said, I live in Chattanooga. The pay in the south is just one of the lowest. I've lived in Memphis and traveled around the south for the last couple of years. The pay that I got offered here in Chattanooga was $33 an hour.

Okay, but again.

You'Re using a barbell, dude. You've got one on one side and one on the other. There's a big middle range there. I've gotten myself in trouble chasing a salary amount that made me feel like I was being valued and not doing the math in a 360 deg way.

Yeah. And again, you keep saying I'm single. If you're single and you think the San Francisco vibe is cool, and that's a vibe you want to live in, it's a lifestyle environment you want to plug into socially, that kind of stuff, have at it, dude. I got no issue with that at all. I'm a redneck hillbilly. The chances of me doing that is zero because I would stand out like sore thumb there, so wouldn't fit in and wouldn't want to. But that's okay. That doesn't mean it's not for you. Right. So I can't advise you on that part of it. You've got to decide that for yourself. But I am going to challenge you to find three more solid offers and quit just blowing up the entire south. Oh, come on. Give me a break. Freaking Atlanta, Georgia. Nashville, Tennessee, which is the center of hospital Corporation of America and three other major hospital companies. A major medical corridor runs right through freaking Nashville. Is underpaid. Give me a break. Not a chance. Not a chance.

Other thing. Go spend some time. When my wife and I were deciding, we decided, hey, we're going to leave West Texas. We went and visited some places. One of them was in Nashville. We came here to watch, to see a concert, and to just spend a couple of days here. And we left thinking, all right, that one's on our list. And so go experience the place, man. But I think you're tied to somebody said 300,000, and your heart went, that's right. And you're going to make it work. You're going to tell yourself any number of stories to back up. I want to make $300,000, and good on you, but don't do it just for that number.

Yeah, that would be a mistake because I think you could have a comparable number other places if you put a little research into your job hunt. Get on King Coleman.com and let's lay that it's. But again, if you just decide to go do it. Kristen, knock your lights out, man. Alex, there's nothing wrong with beautiful part of the country. It's absolutely gorgeous. You're right. And there's a lot of very cool stuff there. There's a lot of very uncool stuff there, too. But it's just a matter of where you want to live and what you want to do and what you want to plug into. But no. Is it a slam dunk decision? No, it's not. And you make better decisions the more options you have. Options? Options gives you power. It gives you the sense to calm down. You can negotiate better with the other option if you've got real options outside of your thing. And so always have lots of different things you can do when you're making a decision. Open phones at. You know, I was with Ken Coleman and some of the guys I'm working on his team earlier this morning. We're talking about, one of the things that's popping up right now with people looking for positions is soft skills.

We've got a group of people, regardless of age or which generation, if you want to label it one way or another, that don't have good EQ, emotional quotient. They cannot do conflict. They cannot do basic conversations. Look people in the eye, string a sentence together, have a standard, normal in person, person to person conversation because they've done everything on their phone and their brains are wired and they've lost the ability to do it other than they can text you across the room, but they can't sit and talk to you like a person. And so these soft skills are a big problem. Decision making is one of those soft skills because what happens in the digital world, if you don't like something, you just move, boom, it's gone. You can't do that. If you move to San Francisco, you can't. Boom, it's gone. It's harder to undo real decisions instead of virtual decisions. Virtual means not real. That's what it means. Literally, that's the meaning of the word. It's not real. It's a fake version of real. That's what virtual means. Look it up in the dictionary. So soft skills in that goes decision making. So decision making is one good decision making rule is you need more options, another decision making rule is the more important the decision, the larger the impact of the decision.

The slower you make the decision. That's why you don't go out on a date and get married the next day. Right. That's why you don't go look at a car and buy it when you walk on the lot. It's why you don't buy a house, having looked at only one. Right. Big decisions require length of time to make wise decisions. Small decisions you can make fast, because what pack of gum do I want? You can make that decision. If it's wrong, it doesn't kill you, but the other stuff will throw you off. Slow down on the big stuff. This is the Ramsay show. Dr. John Deloney, Ramsay personality, is my co host today. Well, let's face it. Taxes suck. They're confusing. We don't like them. No one wants to finance a $25,000 toilet seat. And we all know we're doing it. We all know the government's irresponsible with our money when we send it to them. But we have to do it because there's jail time involved. So we have to do it right. So we're going to do what we're supposed to do. So people ask all the time, what's the truth about taxes?

Well, here's the truth. Don't trust just anybody with your taxes. Because a lot of people say that taxes are like a lot of things. A lot of people say they know something about it, and they don't. So if you have a complicated return, we have vetted and worked with in detail, done the due diligence on about a thousand folks that are professional tax preparers that can help you with a really complicated return. They're Ramsey trusted. The reason they're trusted is we've checked them out up and down. Right. And so just go to Ramsay trusted. Or go to ramsaysolutions.com taxpro, and you can find the one in your area, and they'll sit down with you. Now, if you do not have a complicated return, I wouldn't spend that much money. I would just go get the Ramsay smart tax software. It's very inexpensive. 30, $40. There's no extra add ons, no gotchas. Not going to try to sell you a credit card or some of that other crap like these people at Turbotax. Their whole thing is they want to sell you something else other than tax work. And so our deal is real simple. That's why there's now, this year, I think they'll have about 100,000 people prepare their taxes with the Ramsay smart tax software because it's very simple.

You're just trying to. Boom, boom, boom, boom. There we go. Ramsaysolutions.com taxpro will hook you up. Kristen's with us in San Antonio. Hi, Kristen. Welcome to the Ramsay show.

Hey, Dave and John. I am kind of considering maybe buying my mom a car. She's turning 70 very soon. I'm super excited for her, and I just want to do something totally generous, just blow her mind and just want to be smart about it too.

That's awesome.

Very on you, Kristen.

Yeah. I assume you have the money in cash.

I got my mom a high five when she turned 70. Now I'm feeling bad.

Well, I've given her many high fives, but I'm ready to maybe do a little bit more. I do have the money in cash.

How much is the car?

Well, I haven't even started looking too seriously, because I just didn't know if I was being crazy or not.

What do you think of roughly? I mean, are you talking about spending 100,000 or 50,000 or 10,000?

Between 25, 30.

Okay. All right. And what's your net worth?

700.

Okay, good for you. Good for you. So what are you, 50, 42? Yeah. Good for you. What do you make?

Thank you. Last year, made a little over 200. Hopefully on track for that this year.

Which is kind of why you're killing it. And you're out of debt.

I am totally debt free. I have 65 left on my house.

Good for you.

I'm so close.

Good for you. Yeah.

Thank you.

Okay, so what would be wrong with buying her a car? Because this all sounds very wise to me.

I'm so frugal. I don't spend money.

I can tell.

I want to blow her mind. I think that would be really cool.

Is there any issue with a relationship with her? No. My mom is not controlling, not enabled. You're not trying to make up for some childhood scar by doing this?

No, I just want to bless her. She took care of my dad when he was sick. He passed away 25 years ago. He was 40, died from cancer. She's never remarried. She lives just a quiet life. She'd be there for my sister and I in a heartbeat with anything. She's supported me my whole life. And no guilt, no nothing. I just love my amazing mom and just want to do something outrageous for her.

Touchdown. You're very cool. I really like you a lot. Thank you. Yeah. I hope my kid says something about me like that. That'd be neat.

I can't speak, Kristen, because I'm going to cry. And I haven't done that yet on any of these shows. And I'm pretty dang close.

I cried. An Applebee's commercial.

All right, Kristen, you're pretty amazing.

You're pretty amazing. Honey, go buy the car. There's absolutely zero check in. Anything you're saying.

Please send us a photo or a video of your mom getting it and send it here to the guys on the show.

Yeah, we'll put it up on the.

I want to see it personally. That's a beautiful story.

Yeah, it's a great story. I've got friends that have done that.

A lot of people. But I want to tell you guys.

You know what I mean?

Like, I want to tell you guys. I don't need to tell friends, family. It can be just for her. So I definitely will take a photo.

One of my favorite stories. And we videoed it. We haven't played it in a while. I don't know if it's on the YouTube channel or not. It's an old story. A buddy of mine, his dad, this friend of mine is 60, so his dad. Or is 50 something, right? So his dad sold a 1930 or 40 or something car when that wouldn't have been that old. It would have been 1960s or something. Okay.

I know you're talking about. Yeah.

I'm trying to think. And he sold the car when his kid was. When my buddy was born. His dad couldn't afford this car anymore, and he sold it. He sold it to a friend down the street. That friend kept it for many years and sold it to a pastor. My budy now is making big money. And he went and found that pastor still had it, talked him into selling it back to him, and gave it back to his dad, like, 50 years later.

I saw that video. That one got me good, man.

And that's a version of what you're doing right here. And it's really cool. It's very cool, baby. Step seven is build wealth and give. We tell people all the time, live like no one else. So later, you can give and live like no one else. And that's exactly what you're doing. You're amazing. Buy your mama car, girl. You did it. Touchdown.

That's so cool.

That's so fun. This is what money's good for. It's not good for much else. Yeah. Feeds you. Feeds you and feed others. It's about what it's good for. It's really good. Carrie is with us in Atlanta, Georgia. Hey, Carrie. Welcome to the Ramsay show.

Hey, how are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

Okay, so I've been listening to your show for about eight months. I'm on baby step number two. I've paid off about $12,000 worth of debt. I have about $93,000 left to go, besides my mortgage. So not including mortgage. Question. I had some repair guy come in and said that I need a new HVAC system. I may need a new electrical repair and plumbing. Altogether, it's going to be about $21,000. Yeah, I've already put.

Stop. Let me just tell you, in the HVAC world, there is a segment of that world that does that. Don't let that guy back in your house. He's a crook.

Okay?

I'm calling BS. He told you your family was in danger, didn't he?

Yes.

He said that our air quality.

Yeah. Your house may burn down and it'll be your fault that your children died, right? Yeah. Don't let this guy back in your house, okay? You can tell I know the script, right?

Yes, absolutely.

There's a segment of the heating and air business that does a wonderful job. And there is a segment that are complete shysters. And they will come in and tell you that your furnace is leaking. And everybody in the house is going to die of carbon monoxide poisoning if you don't fix it. Although it's been this way for five years and we all seem to be fine, but. Yeah, right. This is bull crap. Now, do you maybe need a new furnace in the future? Yeah, but is it nearly as expensive or urgent as you were told? 100%. No. You can do this much cheaper than this bozo. And it's probably not as urgent as he said. I'm not 100% sure, but I'm 99.7% sure.

Okay. I've already put about $5,500 into the house to get the crawl space waterproofed. The house is about 30 years old, and I only plan on being here about another seven years. Do you think I should put more money into the house?

Well, I mean, if the heating and air is not working, you're going to have to fix the heating and air. But right now we don't have that issue.

Okay. Yeah.

You're going to have to put more money in the house. If you live there and something breaks, you're going to have to do that. But do you upgrade $21,000 worth of stuff because some bozo? No.

And, Carrie, you owe $100,000, don't you?

93.

93. Not including my mortgage?

Yeah. Stop fixing your house unless something's broke and it's in dire shape.

If nothing's leaking or sparking or anything like that, just keep moving. Yeah. This is the Ramsay show. If you've taken financial peace University, you know how life changing it is. And there's no better way to share that hope than by leading an FPU class at your church. Because right now, someone you know in your church is struggling bad. They're drowning in debt. They're scared to death and don't know what to do. And you can be the one to step up and give them hope, just like your FPU coordinator did for you. Start making a difference as a coordinator by going to fpU.com lead. Dr. John Deloney. Ramsay personality is my cohost today. Open phones at triple 825-5225 well, we've got three events coming up where you can get Ramsay teachings live in person in an auditorium with thousands of other people just like you. Total money makeover weekend event, May 10 and 11th this two day event is the ultimate motivator to get fired up. Join us in Nashville and you can leave money stress at the door. We're not only going to get you out of debt. We're going to get you into wealth.

We're going to talk to you about generosity, how to get your income up, how to walk through the relational issues as you're doing all of this. How to be married or not married with money and without money. We're going to walk through the whole thing. It is a total money makeover weekend, May 10 and eleven on the campus here, the Ramsay event center on the hill. It only holds 2400. It is on its way to being an early sellout, and you need to get your tickets. Now. The next thing is I'm going to be doing something I've never done before. Dave Ramsay's investing essentials, a two night virtual event May 21 and 22. It's my personal playbook on investing in real estate. George Campbell and I are going to unpack the basics of investing and also go deep on real estate and other investing and the scams that are out there and the things that the rich don't do, the lies that are told to you by TikTok and other social media platforms about this. The last one is the money and marriage event next fall, October 24 and 25. This is Dr. John Deloney and Rachel Cruz with real life answers to your hard questions about money and marriage.

A whole weekend away with your spouse in Nashville. Again, the Ramsey Events center. All of these events are available@ramseysolutions.com. Slash events all of these events are fun. You will laugh, you will cry. You can bring the person who thinks you're crazy for doing this stuff. They will leave being as crazy as you are. They'll be on board, on game, ready to go. We will convince them because the stuff we teach absolutely works, and we love helping people. So make plans to attend one of these. We would love to have you here on campus with us and stop by anytime and watch the show. We do it on the glass here right now from one to four central time every day, Monday through Friday. There's a couple of Ramsay personalities sitting in these seats. I'm usually one of them if I'm in town. And then the rest of them mix and match and fill it in. And that's how we do it. So come and join us. We'd love to have you. Sean is with us. Sean is in Kansas City. Hey, Sean. Welcome to the Ramsey show.

Hi.

Thank you so much for having me on.

Sure. What's up?

Well, I wanted to ask you about the baby steps. I've been watching the show for about a month, and I suppose I should give you a little bit of backstory as well, just to give you an idea of why I'm asking the question. My wife and I just had our first son.

Yay.

A couple months. You? Yeah. So John was nice enough to help me out there. He decided to throw up his lunch while I was waiting. So I wanted to ask about baby steps three and four, because I was actually able to get some 401k from my previous job, and I was able to actually save up quite a bit of money while I worked at that job. And so doing baby step two to pay down all the debt is technically something I can do. But then with the amount of money I would free up each month, it would seem like it would take me forever to do baby step three. And then when I saw baby step four, and correct me if I'm wrong, because you match your employer, right? And then you do 15% and 15%, I believe. So.

It just seems like I'm confused. There's no 15% and 15%. Okay. Baby step one is $1,000 in the bank. Baby step two is you pay off all of your debt except your home. Do you have any debt except your home?

We do, yes.

Okay, how much is that?

So that is close to $40,000.

On what?

So we have two car payments, we have a hospital bill for my son's birth, and then we also had to take him to the emergency room. And then my wife's student loan debt.

And how much is her student. Oh, student loan debt is how much of the car. How much is the student loan debt? I'm sorry.

$33,000.

So most of this, you have two car payments that are $7,000 if I.

Pay off both the cars.

I asked you how much debt you had. You said $40,000. Then you told me you had $33,000 of student loan debt. That means you've got $7,000 on two cars and the hospital bills. You only owe $7,000 on two cars.

I owe $5,000 on the two cars.

Okay. All right. Wow. Okay.

Yeah. Because my son's hospital bill was.

I got you. Okay. Because I thought you didn't tell me all the debt. Right, that's what I was. Okay. It is, right. I got you. Okay. So your household income is what, about 70,000? Good. And you're 26, right?

No, I'm 31.

31.

Thank you for telling me that.

Okay. That's okay. I mean, you got a brand new baby, and you're making 70,000. Right. All right. And what do you do for a living?

I'm an electrical apprentice.

Okay. All right. So first thing is, we clear up the 40,000. Now, you don't have any payments. Then you build an emergency fund of three to six months of expenses because some of your debt is due to not having an emergency fund. Right. Okay. And then once we have an emergency fund of three to six months of expenses, how fast can you do that? You don't have any payments in the world. You haven't been living on a written budget yet. You've just been discussing the possibility of doing this whole Ramsay thing. But once you're living on a written budget for 90 days, you're going to feel like you've got a raise because your money is going to work a lot harder. Right now, there's a lot of waste in your budget.

So my wife and I were discussing that and how we can cut back on the budget.

You haven't done the budget yet, probably.

Well, we were discussing it's theory.

Cut back on it's theory. Okay. When you actually start doing it, you will find more margin than you realize you have. You're doing all this stuff in your head right now and in hypotheticals, rather than actually freaking doing it. So actually start doing a budget for 90 days. And then I promise you, from 32 years of doing what I do, you will feel like you've gotten a raise, you will find money you didn't realize you had. Now then you're going to be able to build a three to six months of emergency fund. It's going to take you about six months to a year after you pay off the $40,000 in debt. Then, and only then, are you going to start putting money into your 401. And then and only then, baby. Step four is 15% of your household income. Does your wife work outside the home?

Yeah, she works outside the home.

What does she make?

Together? We make 70. She makes about 35 of that.

Okay. All right. So when will your apprenticeship be done?

In a couple of years. I just started about six months ago.

And what will your income do then? Double.

I'll go up to $40 an hour.

Yeah. And you're at 20 now? Yeah, it's double. Kind of like doubling? Yeah. Okay. And so then what we're going to do is you're going to be making $100,000 a year, and you will be debt free. And you're putting $15,000 a year, 15% of your household income, regardless of match, you put in 15% of your household income. So by then you've been making 100,000, you're putting 15,000 away, and by then you'll be 35 years old. And so you have 30 years, if you never get a raise, to invest $15,000 a year. Okay. And that's going to amount to about $8 million at 65.

Okay. So I understand what you're saying, but my question is, if I'm doing this all in my head, how do we plan for the extra money properly when baby steps two and three are essentially what you say, living on beans and rice? Because if I have to take my son to the emergency room again, if I have to get a car, the only way we know how to get.

A car, what is half to get a car?

Well, in case something happens and we have to pay for it to get repaired or we have to fixing a.

Car, you have $1,000 set aside.

Or if one of the vehicles breaks.

What if we get hit by, why.

Do you keep doing what you've been doing and you stay broke as hell to the rest of your life? You could do that, too. That's an option.

So my question is, in those emergencies, I have the savings fund for three to six months. Would you recommend I pull from that resource?

Yes, it's an emergency.

Yeah.

If your kid has to go to.

Emergency, if you have your three to six months, if you're in baby step two. No, you're only going to have $1,000. That's all you're going to have. So you're going to have to stop your baby step two. Your debt snowball at that point and fix that. If that happens during the two years that it takes you to get out of debt. But you should be out of debt in two years or less. So listen, dude, you're overanalyzing this. You need to go do it. That's the difference. And then tell me how it's wrong. Millions of people have done what I'm telling you to do. It absolutely works. This is the Ramsey show. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions. It's the Ramsey show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey personality and host the Dr. John Deloney show is my co host today. Thank you for joining us. You can hear him every week on the Ramsey networks as well. You want to be sure and tune in on that and check out many of his number one bestselling books on relationships, boundaries, mental health and such.

So we're here to help. The phone number is triple 8825-5225 Luke's in Kansas City. Luke, what's up in your world? Hi.

Thank you for taking my call.

Sure. How can we help? Yeah, so I am considering going into.

Business with my father, and my question is, I wanted to see, do you have any advice for going into business with family? And what should I be most aware of?

Yeah, don't. I'm just kidding. Silly kidding. I'm sitting by a guy who runs a pretty successful family business. So I'm just being a smart Alec dude.

I enjoy working with my family in the business, but we have worked at it so that we could enjoy it. All right? So I can do a whole seminar on this that takes 8 hours. I'll try to give you some high points. Okay? Number one, when you're on site working with your father, he is not your father. He's your boss, okay? So don't use your whiny teenager voice on him. Right? You treat him like you would treat your boss at another place. He owns the freaking company. You work for him. You're an employee. Act like it. Okay? And he, in turn, my advice to him is to treat your son with the same dignity and respect and compensation that you would another team member in that same position. So when my son came on board out of college, he started selling radio ads, which is one of the hardest jobs in the building because you have to put up with these things called ad agencies, which are a royal pain in the butt. And he had a really tough year, year and a half. But he wasn't working for me. He was working for a guy that worked for a guy that worked for a guy that worked for me.

Several layers down in the company, right? But he was getting the college knocked off of him for sure. And so he had a tough year and a half here, but he got paid the same pay that the other salespeople selling ads got paid. And he treated me with the same respect that he would the CEO of a company that he worked for if he'd gone to work somewhere else. And I treated him the same way, with respect. While we're on site, my kids don't even call me dad on site. They call me Dave. Because if you go into a meeting and say, my daddy said, it's a different meeting, right then broom just tilted.

And, bro, let me tell you, the first time, Rachel Cruz started saying, dave freaking said this and this in that meeting. And I finally said, are you setting me?

Don't.

Am I supposed to be like, yeah, or no? I didn't know what to do. And that's when she clued me, no. Here at work, he's Dave. He's Dave at home.

When I'm at home, I put on my papa Dave hat and I spoil her kids. That's my job. Give them lots of sugar and send them home. So that's my. And so when we're at work, we wear work hats. And when we're at home, we change our hat. And so I'm dad or papa Dave or whatever at home. And I'm father in law at home. That kind of thing. I have daughters.

How do you set that boundary to be consistent?

We police it on each other. We don't violate. We don't talk business either, except on site. Okay, so Christmas dinner is not spoiled for everyone else by the two goopers that work there, right? Because nobody else wants to hear all the crap that you two are going to deal with.

Yeah.

Your wife, then. We hear it all. She hears it all when you come home at night anyway, that kind of stuff. So you need to have some onsite offsite rules like that. And he needs to pay you fairly, but not overpay. You pay you for the position, not for the position of son. Okay. And then you need to get in there and earn your dad gum stripes and earn the right to move up through the organization so that no one looks down on you when you do move up in the organization because this guy worked twice as hard as everybody else. You got to work twice as hard to be respected because they immediately think you're the Duber boss's son, and you got to earn with the rest of the team. And our kids do that. They've done a wonderful job of working. They work their tails off, man. And our team has great respect for them, and I'm very proud of that. So that's a couple of things that you can do. Another thing or two to remember is that no family business is more or less functional than the family is.

Yeah.

So if you have tremendous family dysfunction, if your relationship with your dad is wicked sideways, well, don't expect it to be anything else. When you go to work over there, it's going to be just as dumb as it is otherwise. But if you and your dad get along good, you like fishing together, hunting together, you like doing whatever it is you do together, all that kind of stuff. You like hanging out as two adults now together, then that's going to work real good inside the business. My son and I, we ski together. We do all kinds. We shoot together. We do all kinds of stuff. My daughters and I do stuff. We enjoy each other as adults, and so that's going to show up in the business. But if crazy is your family script, then expect crazy to be in the business. Right. So it doesn't go away. And so that's the problem with it. And then lastly, someday your dad's going to want you to. You're going to want to take this place over, and he's going to want to step aside and hand it off. You guys need to start talking about that sooner rather than later.

Your dad founded this business.

Yeah, it's more complicated than that, but in a roundabout way.

Yes. Okay. All right. Well, the person that starts a business from the ground up has the hardest time handing it off.

Yeah.

Founders have emotional trouble handing it off. I'm a founder. Founders are hardheads. We're stubborn. It's how we pull this crap off, because we would not be denied. And then when it comes time to turn it over, it's very difficult to do that. It's like putting your kid out for adoption, and it's really hard for founders, emotionally, to do that. So I've had to really concentrate on that and work hard at it. It's not been an easy emotional journey for me to turn this thing over. And my son's now the president of Ramsay, and I'm the CEO, but he runs a lot more of the day to day of this place than I do today. But that's been on a twelve year journey to get to that point. It didn't just come out of college and step into that, I can promise you that.

Let's talk more about your admission of being stubborn and hard headed. Let's go there for a minute. I'm just kidding.

Why, you need some counseling hours or something?

No. Hey, if I was just a spectator watching you on the stage say this, things you just said, I would think, yeah, but I've seen it. And I'll tell you, the first few times I was around you guys at the lake house versus in the office, it's almost like being on the boat all day and getting onto land and you have to take a minute to settle in.

We completely change gears.

It's a totally different shift, right. And almost not quite the same. There's still a level of respect and distance, but there's a very distinct friend, Dave. Like when we're all hanging out versus when we're here at the office. We're here at the office to tangle up.

It should be, yeah. Who wants to hang out with a twerp on a boat?

Or who wants to go, yeah. With their boss who's still trying waking.

A.

Pretty, it's pretty impressive to watch it be separate like that.

But it's an intentional act.

It's a practice.

It doesn't occur. And we've studied it to learn how to do that from other people. So it's a great question. Luke, thank you for joining us. If you want to hear more things like that, we do a podcast every week called Entree Leadership, where I take calls from small businesses and you can check that out. It's one of our Ramsay network productions, highly rated as well. Here's the thing about investing advice. You can find it just about anywhere, but that doesn't mean it'll always help you with your personal goals. Here's another option. Check in with a smartvestor pro. These financial advisors can review your plan or help create one that's personalized to you. To find a smartvestor pro in your area, go to ramseysolutions.com slash smartvestor. Go to ramseysolutions.com slash smartvestor.

Ramseysolutions is a paid, non client promoter of participating pros. Learn more@ramseysolutions.com slash smartvestor.

Thank you for joining us, America. Dr. John Deloney. Ramsay personality is my co host. We're so glad you are here. Hey, guys, I want to tell you. Thank you. Last week was the largest ratings week in the history of the Ramsay show in 32 years. The number of YouTube downloads, the number of podcast downloads, and numbers of minutes listened. The ratings on any format that carries this show. And we've got it on almost everything out there. But the numbers were just astronomical. I was out of town. So it's a little bit insulting that you people gave it the best week ever when I wasn't on the air. But that's okay. We'll still take the victory. And very good. Thank you, guys. And listen, we could still use your help. We run in the top two or three, five, depending on what minute it is. Of the Apple podcasts in the world. There's 2 million Apple podcasts, and we're usually one, two, or three somewhere in there, maybe five somewhere in there. So I hadn't looked today, but we're always right in there. And that kind of thing is what tells us that we're reaching a lot of people.

And the way we reach people is you tell them. So subscribe to the show, click the subscribe button. That helps the algorithms big time. The follow button. Right? Depending on what type of format you're on, whether you're podcast or YouTube or whatever it is, a lot of these formats have a share button where you can share it with a friend by clicking a button. Do that, you can copy the link and send that to somebody. Share it, share it, share it. If you're listening on talk radio, there's 680 talk radio stations carrying this show every day out there. And you can share. Just say, I listen to such and such a station. Tell people about us. You're our number one marketing. We don't own a football stadium like sofa. I sneezed. I'm sorry, but we're not putting $300 million into that marketing. So you guys are the ones that tell other people that the Ramsay thing is helping me, and then that helps us. Thank you. And it helps us help other people. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Our question of the day comes from Kimberly in Oklahoma.

Kimberly writes, my fiance and I purchased a house together in 2022. We were both in our fifty s and had been homeowners in the past. Our deed has the phrase right of survivorship in it, where if one of us dies, the property automatically goes to the other. Well, my fiance passed away late last year. And while researching about selling the house, I found out he had filed a quit claim back in October, right before he had surgery to remove a tumor. The quit claim deeds his half of the house to his sons, who are 23 and 26. Neither one of them has any interest in living in the house or paying for it. Does the quit claim supersede our deed wording about the right of survivorship? If so, how do I go about selling my house? If they have legally inherited it? Should they be paying half the mortgage?

Hoa.

And taxes.

Good God.

What a mess.

This is why you do not buy a home with someone you're not married to, even if they're your fiance, ever. This is why. Seen this kind of wicked, weird stuff for 30 years when people buy a house that aren't married. Well, we love each other. Good. Get married, then buy a house. Stop this stupidity. Oh, bless your heart, Kimberly. I'm so sorry. What a horrible thing to go through and what a weird type of betrayal. So I don't know the answer to your question. In Oklahoma. You need to get a lawyer. You need to get a lawyer and find out what title you hold. If the survivorship supersedes the quick claim deed, I suspect it does not.

I do, too.

I think he just gave up his half of the ownership to his sons before he died. So there was no right of survivorship because he didn't own anything when he died. His kid owned it. His kids owned it. So I think you are now partners with your fiance's two kids. And so I would sit down with them and say, how are we going to do this? We're 50 50 on this house. How do you all want to handle it? My best suggestion would be you sell it and take your half, and they get their half, because I think that's where you are. But you can check an attorney to be sure, but I'm about 95% sure that's the way it's going to go down. And hopefully, the two little Dobers will cooperate, and you can just sell this thing fairly easily, and you're not going to have a problem. If they won't cooperate. You're going to have to file a motion in circuit court to dissolve a partnership, and the judge will force the sale of the house to dissolve the partnership, and that's going to cost you ten grand in legal fees, maybe five, but probably ten.

And so this is what this betrayal has cost you. It's unbelievable. It's unconscionable. I guess he had a brain tumor, and it affected his behavior and his judgment. I try to give the guy a little credit, not just be a complete scumball since he died, but who knows now?

This was just an under the table sideways scummy thing. Sideways deal that left his fiance high and dry. He didn't have the courage to either. Tell her, hey, I want to make sure I leave something to my boys. And he didn't have the courage to tell them what was going on.

Yeah, this is really cowardly. Really cowardly. Yeah. So that leaves you in a mess. And here's the rule, boys and girls out there, I know some of you like to shack up and you don't want to be married, and you want to try on a shoe before you buy it. And all that crap that you say all the time. You can do whatever you want to do on a moral construct. It's a legal and financial construct. Buying a house with somebody you're not married to is straight up stupid. Don't do it. Well, we've been dating for 42 years. Well, great, painter. Get off the ladder. Make a decision, man. All right. Mike is with us. Mike's in Boise, Idaho. Hey, Mike, what's up?

Hi, guys.

Thanks for taking my call.

Sure.

I have found myself in baby step two as I am finishing college. I'm getting ready to graduate, and I'm planning on moving out of state. And I just don't know.

What the.

Process is for, how much I should have saved up before I move.

Enough to cover your moving expenses and.

Your first month's rent or whatever it's going to take to get into an apartment.

Yeah. Where are you moving?

So I'm moving back to California where I grew up with my brother.

Why?

He's told me. Well, just family, kind of.

What about employment?

What about this idea? You just went to school to get a job?

Yeah.

You should get one of those. Yeah.

So I've applied to jobs back in California.

Do you have any?

Well, I still have, like, interviews coming up, so nothing's for sure.

What's your degree in?

I'm finishing with a master's of arts in teaching and a bachelor's in social studies here in May.

So you're looking for a teaching gig?

Yeah.

You'll get one of those.

Yeah, I've applied to them and they have such a high need, I would kind of be shocked if I didn't get one.

Sure. You can actually be pretty selective. My guess. And find the districts that pay the most or are going to put you in the best situation. Yeah.

One of the hard parts for me is that I'm not going to get paid for the month of August.

Yeah, that is tough. I remember that when my first year teaching, I had to float until September.

But this is March. Go work. Yeah, go Uber and cut grass and walk people's dogs. I mean, go crazy for a short period of time. Get you some money, dude.

Yeah, I started teaching driver's ed. Trying to.

That's a start.

Hey, teaching driver's ed, you may die before you even have to take your first trip.

Yeah, no kidding. The hard thing is, I wanted to put down, like, five grand in a savings account to move, but that's all that I'll have left on my student loans.

No, you need to make the move first and get the job. And you can clear the student loan in 20 minutes if you haven't got five grand. Okay, you got to get moved. You got to get moved. I mean, how are you going to move if you don't go in debt for that? You just traded one debt for the other.

Yeah, well, my family has been so good to me, but I don't know.

Knock it out. Knock it out.

Go get five grand. Move. Get settled and pay off. Five grand. Your first three checks.

Yeah.

No partying allowed. You're a social studies teacher now. You're not a college student.

Hey, and by the way, your first year teacher, are you married or anything?

No.

All right, good. So my first year of coaching, I took an extra sport and made a little extra money. I drove the bus for other events, for other teams, and made extra money. I worked games, like b team basketball games for extra money. You'll have an opportunity to nickel and dime your way to a lot of additional cash your first couple of years of teaching. If you just get on it and hoof it and get to work, lots of opportunities.

Partying is in the rearview mirror. It was at college. Right now, you're a man.

Work, work, work.

Time to go to work. Clean up his dad gum mess. This is the Ramsey show, folks. Changing your family tree takes more than rice and beans and side hustles. It's also about transferring the big financial risks off your family by having the right kinds of coverage in place. That's why my team created the coverage checkup quiz. It only takes about five minutes to find out what types of insurance you need and don't need to protect your finances. Make this quiz one of your regular checkups, starting right now@ramsaysolutions.com. Slash checkup. That's ramsaysolutions.com slash checkup. Dr. Chandeloney Ramsey personality is my co host today. Open phones, a triple, 8825-5225 Kayla is in Oshkosh, Wisconsin. Hi, Kayla. Welcome to the Ramsay show.

Hello. Thank you so much for your time.

Sure. What's up?

Yeah. So my husband and I have been married for 15 years. We, shortly after that, bought our first home. For the first 13, he was a chemical engineer, and we were able to pay off all but our mortgage.

Yay.

Yes. In the past two years, we had the calling to enter into pastoral ministry, which in turn cut our income in half. So we are commuting currently to our church. And so I desire mostly to be closer to that community and minister to that community. Be at hands and feet there. We refinanced in 2020, which gave us a 3% mortgage rate, and so our mortgage payment is super low.

What do you owe on your home?

So we owe $77,000.

What's it worth?

We haven't officially got it estimated, but Zillow is like 320.

Okay. And how far away are you moving?

It's about 25 minutes from our home.

Okay. In most areas of the country, that's called going to work. That's not really a commute.

I would love a 25 minutes commute. That'd be amazing.

You are in the community when you're 25 minutes away in most areas of the country. So if you want to move, are there $320,000 homes in that neighborhood?

There are, yes. Taxes are a little bit higher than what we're used to.

Yeah. What's your husband making now.

Together? Because I also am working with him side by side, we make about 80,000. And that doesn't include the housing allowance.

And the housing allowance is how much?

Well, we're new to that, too. So after taxes, it was $60,000. Does that make sense?

You deduct your housing expenses from your taxes.

The 80 includes the housing.

Yes.

So you have taxable housing is not taxable in a pastoral, but the rest of it is taxable. So you got 60 taxable, 20 not taxable. But your total income, including housing, is 80. Correct. Okay, I got you. All right. So what prohibits you from buying a $320,000 house or $300,000 house in that neighborhood? By selling this house, your payment is going to go up some because you've got a tiny little mortgage with a tiny little bump in interest rate. But 3% on 60 or $70,000 if you go from three to six, is nothing. It's one 8000 hundred dollars a year. It's $100 a month.

The property taxes are double. That's one thing. That's okay.

And so how much is that?

So we would go from 2700 a year to a comparable home to about 5000, whoopi. Okay.

You can afford it.

What's making you so nervous?

If you don't move up in house. But the problem is you went and looked at $500,000 houses, didn't you? Okay. Yeah. Go take a cold shower, honey. You got house fever. You need to lower your expectations back down to the level where you were. You need to buy $250 to $300,000 home if you want to live in that neighborhood. If you don't want to live in that neighborhood and commute and stay where you are, well, you're fine anyway. It's 25 minutes. Sometimes we sit in Nashville, we sit in traffic 25 minutes just to do whatever you want to do.

Can I just say this, Dave? It burns a hole in my chest. If you feel called to do a thing and you feel called to leave job x to go to job y, that often means your entire life is going to change. And you may have to change where you live and change the size of your house. Or I want to do this thing that I feel called to do with no repercussions, with no life change.

Yeah, that doesn't happen.

And that almost never happens that way.

Doesn't happen.

It's a total call. I want you to surrender this big house, these cars, this whatever, for this life.

Right.

And that's hard.

So you may move from a $300,000 house to a $200,000 house, which is paid for, by the way. It's paid for. You could do that and have a paid for House.

And then you can minister debt free, which means you can fully be invested in your community. And that's a totally different freedom and.

Peace, but it's a different mindset. Yeah, that's a big deal. That's an interesting point. And John, you have done that a time or two, and so have I. After we went broke, I went back to doing real estate. And this was 1994, 1000 years ago, right after going broke, 94 was the year I got back above $100,000 income. So I was making 100 and I made $120,000 that year in 1993. I'm sorry. And I had figured out I had a little bit of speaking. I had this little $10 book I was starting to sell called financial peace out of the trunk of my car. And I was doing some one on one coaching. And I was thinking about starting a class that later became known as Financial Peace University. And we figured it up and I did a pro forma on it. And I told Sharon, I said, I think I can go full time into financial peace with books, speaking class radio. Wasn't paying anything. We were doing it, but it didn't pay us anything. And I think I can do that. And I think the first year, we'll make 60,000. Our income will go in half.

And I think God's told me do that, but I'm not sure. What do you think? And she said, well, it doesn't sound like financial peace to me. You just filed bankruptcy three years ago. She said no, but we talked about it. We prayed about it. We both really decided. We thought that was what God was saying to do. Felt called okay. Not 100% sure. I never know. I always hesitate to say God told me, but it felt right. Felt like what I was supposed to do. Right. So we did quit doing real estate. Went full on financial peace in 1994. Opened a little baby office that was a month to month rent in case it didn't work. We didn't have a long lease. And first year, I made $61,000. I hit it exactly odly enough.

But that cost $40,000 of sacrifice in the Ramsay home from the year before, right?

No, 60,000. Our income went in half, like she said, their income went in half. It was the same thing. And so that meant that we didn't do squat again. After recovering, after a bankruptcy, starting to heal and actually fix the heat and air and that kind of stuff. And now we don't have any money again. But the next year, we made 100. And it's never been back since, of course. But this thing's grown every year. But that was a call that came with a sacrifice. That came with a call, what you're talking about. And that one worked out. They don't always work out because sometimes it's last night's pizza. It's not the Holy Spirit, right? And these people is like, well, God told me. And then God told me something else. Then God told me something else. Right.

But you have to know that when you go with your gut, you follow it or you get called whatever you want to say it. It always comes with a risk, and it always comes with an almost total change. And if you can clear the deck, you can go from a four bedroom house to a three bedroom house. If you clear the deck. If you look at it as a loss, and I'm trying to keep it, then you're going to drive yourself mad.

The other thing is, none of this is permanent. Our reduction to 60 was not permanent.

You could pick up real estate the.

Next year if you want to be in the neighborhood. Sell your house, buy a $200,000 house, live there three years, and move up. Right. Save up some money, move up. Save up some money, move up. Nothing stays the same. This is either going to get worse or it's going to get better. Maybe it grows the ministry and the income goes up in that ministry, which would not be a bad thing.

Multiple times across my career, I've taken a new job that's less money with higher upside. Or I've taken a reduction in a title, if you will, for a different environment. I've done that almost every time, and it's always been. I can bet on myself. I know the environment is good. I trust the leadership, XYZ, and it works out that way. But, man, it comes at a cost. It comes at a cost.

Yeah, that's a thing. So your cost, Kayla, what we're describing, we're not picking on you. It's just this is stuff we've all experienced. And you cannot do this without a cost. The cost is a 25 minutes commute or a move to a house smaller than the one you're in. Those are your two options. This is the Ramsay show, our scripture of the day. Two, Peter, three, nine. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead, he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. Norman Vince Appeal said, promises are like crying babies in a theater. They should be carried out at once. I like it. Very good. Noah is with us in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. Hey, Noah. Welcome to the Ramsey show.

Thank you for having me, Dave.

Sure. What's up?

So I am struggling with some family issues. About two years ago, actually, three years ago now, my work offered me a promotion in which I had to move about 400 miles from where I currently was living. And at that time, I didn't know what to do with the house. We'd only owned it a year. So some of my family members, my wife's sisters, decided they wanted to rent the house from us. Well, it turned into, two years later, they hadn't paid rent on time. Once in a year, they were two months behind on rent, and they had trashed the house. And we're just trying to struggle with family gatherings are awkward.

I can help you with that.

What do we do?

Yeah, it's your fault. Yeah, it's not their fault. You put two wild, wicked, young, single women into your rental house, and then you're shocked they tore it up while they weren't paying rent, and you did nothing about it. Yeah, your fault. Not their fault. They just is what they is. Yeah.

Where's wife?

You knew what they were when you let them move in there, didn't you?

I was.

You knew this was stupid when you did it, didn't you?

Yeah. My wife couldn't understand the thought of her sisters doing this to us. So she was very firm that they wouldn't hurt us in this way.

Yeah, she's delusional. Yeah. She knew they were crazy too. You knew they were wild as buck, didn't you?

I did.

Yeah. You just turned your dad gum thing into a sorority house.

So has your sister not called her sisters? I mean your wife not called her sisters?

The ones that would never do this.

She has talked with her sisters but they just act like. They act like nothing has happened, nothing's wrong. That they didn't destroy this house. That was something that we had worked hard to get.

So what does your wife say? Does she say they destroyed it or is she in denial too?

No, she's not in denial. She's on board. But she's on board with it now. But she's like how do we go to Christmas and spend time with the family and then be like oh, we're not getting you guys gifts because you owe us $2,000 in back rent. And the 6000 or $8,000 in damages that we had to do to get the house livable again because we ended up moving back into the house.

Okay, let me change gears a minute. I was picking on you. But it's also the way you go to Christmas is you take responsibility for this. It is your fault. That's how you go to Christmas. You quit blaming them. Here's the deal. The day they were late the first time, you should have moved them. If you're in one of my rental properties and you don't pay your rent, you know what we do? We evict your butt. If we go over and do an inspection, which we do monthly or every two months on every single residential property, we walk through it. If a cat lives there or you're partying, we evict your butt. You're not tearing up my property. That's called landlording, y'all. Did not landlord. You didn't collect your rent and you didn't manage your property. You stood back and watched two wild crazy women tear up your stuff and did nothing about it. Yeah, it's exactly what happened. I mean, you suck as a landlord, dude.

Yeah, it wasn't originally the plan. When we bought the house, it was.

Just my work I get all that, but you're asking me how you heal the relationships, but you're blaming somebody for being who they is. You already know who they is. They're irresponsible, party animal sorority girls who don't give a crap about anybody. And you brought them in as a tenant, and then you're shocked that they're irresponsible party girls who don't give a crap about anybody who happens to be ken to me. Yeah.

And it wasn't even partying. It was more like people with mental health issues, like depression. And they couldn't keep the house clean.

No, they weren't trying to keep the house clean. They could, but they didn't. Depressed people clean houses all the time. Happens all the time. Yeah, if they're getting evicted. If they don't, they suddenly magically clean the house.

So what's your plan moving forward? Have you evicted them from the house?

Yes. So about a year ago. This all started three years ago. A year ago, my work offered me an opportunity to work from home, and I said, okay, I'm going to move back into this house.

So are you back in it?

Yes, I am.

So it's all fixed, and it's all in the rearview mirror. So the only question now is, you lost the money and you think you're going to get it. Ha ha. You're not getting it.

I would eat it.

Forget it. Walk away. Forgive and forget. They is who they is. We love them. I've got relatives that vote wrong. I love them anyway. They vote for the wrong people. I just don't understand. But I love them anyway. I got relatives that do other stupid things, and I love them anyway. But they're not renting my dad gum house either.

Yeah.

And so I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be tough on you, but the way sometimes that I can put something that's been done to me in the rearview mirror is when I realize how much of it I allowed to happen to me or I invited to happen to me. Therefore, I take responsibility for this situation as much as the Goobers. The Goobers are just goobers. It's what they are. And it's sad, but, I mean, they're not going to ever be anything else. You're in the dream world if you think they're going to walk up at Christmas and go, I'm really sorry. Here's a $2,000 check for the back rent and $5,000 for the damage. And we really are so sorry. We messed up the day that that happens. I will turn blue. It's not going to happen.

Yeah, and they haven't even had a job since they. Of course, one of them had a job for four months, and they're living in my in law's basement now doing the exact.

Hold on. Here's the deal. You shouldn't even know where they live. Now you're keeping tabs on them. They're still living rent free. They just moved from their house to your head. Let them go do their life right.

Yeah.

Then you and your wife decide, hey, it cost $7,000 to get back here. We learned a lesson.

You're looking for justice, and there is none.

Yeah, they're not going to have it anymore. We're going to move on with their life.

There's no justice. There's no justice.

And maybe you all don't do Christmas presents. That's fine. That's a decision you all would make. I wouldn't do it as retribution or, like, keep some sort of. When they're 68 years old, you can be like, hey, you all finally paid off a tab, so here's a Christmas dish.

We've been doing it at 250.

We're just not going to do it.

In ten years, you're back even again.

Is that work for you?

Yeah.

I hate it for you, man.

I'm sorry you went through this. But it was your expectations and your lack of management that made the situation bizarre happen and made it worse. And so you could have limited the damage after you did it. You could have stopped it from ever happening if you'd have just stood up and said, no, of course not. You can't live in our house.

No.

You don't pay bills and you tear up stuff. Of course not. No. I mean, we all have relatives. We all have friends that we love at a greater distance than living in our own home. You go over there somewhere and be you.

I shocked somebody the other day, telling them, two of my closest friends on the planet, my oldest friends, who would lay down in traffic for me, I wouldn't hire them. They're terrible employees. They're amazing. Like, long term friends. I would never hire them.

Right.

And both of those things can coexist. I can love people. But you can't live in my house.

Yeah, right. Exactly right. So, Noah, that lesson learned.

Or you can live in my house for a year, and I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

If you put the word family in front of dysfunctional, it doesn't change dysfunctional. It just magnifies it. And so you got dysfunctional, and then you got family dysfunctional, which is like ten x. And so all you did was just ask for that to not existing. Dysfunction was apparent to you and your wife. You ignored it and went ahead anyway. There's a proverb says, a wise man sees trouble and turns a fool, goes forward and suffers for it. I have been a fool a time or two. That's why I'm so passionate about this. I see something I know better, I go forward anyway, and I suffer for it. That's exactly what happened to y'all. And I'm so sorry. But good news is, you don't ever have to do it again. Listen to your brain. It's talking to you that puts this hour of the Ramsey show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the prince of peace. Christ Jesus.

Hey, guys.

I'm Rachel.

And I'm George.

And you've probably heard our voices before on the Ramsey show.

And do we have a surprise for you.

Yep, we have our very own show, smart money happy hour, where we talk about pop culture, current events, and, of course, money. George. It's a great show. And what else do we talk about?

So much, Rachel. Not enough. And yet too much. We talk about guilt tipping, because tipping is out of control, and I won't stand for it anymore, which is why I'm sitting.

I'm glad you were taking such a stand.

And we also talk about something else I'm passionate about. Disney adults. Why is it a thing?

Listen. Some adults still find the magic.

Sure.

We also talk about toxic money, traits and girl math. And if you don't know what those are, you have to listen to the podcast.

Yeah, there's a lot there, you guys.

It's pretty fun.

We keep you relevant is what I'm trying to say.

We help you out.

So pull up a chair to the happy hour you wish your friends were having. We promise you won't regret it. And if you don't have friends, we'll be your friends.

We will. We're great friends. So make sure to check it out on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or the Ramsey network app.