A complicated concept like cryptocurrency, like Bitcoin a.m. on that stuff you keep hearing about, explain, simply explain so simply that a sixth standard, a third standard student will understand what crypto means and aspects of it from this crypto basic organization. This is something the founder of one of India's biggest crypto based companies going DCX, sharing the knowledge he studied for the last 10 years, 10 years of knowledge backed into 30 minutes. Enjoy yourselves. So we've got to firstly welcome your invitation.
Thank you. And secondly, you're one of the most insightful people I've met in my life. I might do two years back and. Yes. And banking about cryptocurrency to me then. Yes, I was like by embargo's coming, I'm going to plan something very cool around crypto. And when the time is right, we'll have you on the show. The time is right. Time is right. Why has it gotten so hyped in the last two or three weeks?
I probably in the last one, two months maybe. What has happened.
So what has happened in the last one year is covid happened and you would have seen a lot of countries printing trillions of dollars money coming into the system.
So what has happened here is that the fiat currency that has ayanami US dollar euro that we hold is devaluing over time all currencies of the world or be a yen, whatever Australian dollar they value themselves against the American dollar.
So they are related what has happened earlier, whatever a fiat currency that we had was backed by gold underlined in 72, 73 was Caillebotte. Say the money that you have that comes into the system that is no longer pegged to gold and the governments can print as much money as they want. Now we have seen us printing trillions of dollars, which is equivalent to the GDP of India, not imagine that much of new money coming into the system, the value, the things that we can purchase with that hundred rupees in inf our future.
Right. You will not be able to buy that much so the inflation can happen.
The value of our fiat currency is going down over time. So remember, these are the things I saw when I could have been right. And as we are progressing, that money will continue to devalue over time. So what people do is people use that money to invest in certain instruments.
Now, all of that money is new coming into the system. Right. And it is getting devalued. So people have started putting more money into Bitcoin. Why Bitcoin? Because earlier people used to put money in gold, real estate, equity markets. Now the market is already at peak. Real estate is not giving that much returns. So what people have done is people have started seeing Bitcoin as a good store of value, people of Orridge, they don't buy gold now.
They buy Bitcoin. Right.
That's a very good hedge against inflation. So whatever happens, you'll have Bitcoin. So a lot of people, including companies like Tesla, PayPal, they have started putting their cash reserves in Bitcoin.
Right. So that they can that if that appreciates in value that cash doesn't deplete over time.
So basically, at its core, if you want to become rich, if you want a good investment strategy, cryptocurrency in general, the one place you can look at and say, ha, if I invest my money here, it's likely that I will get profits over time.
It's a very good portfolio. Diversification. If you have one lakh rupees, you can put 50000 rupees in mutual funds, 20 thousand dividend stocks or ten thousand rupees and let's say real estate.
But you should have a part of your portfolio into crypto, primarily Bitcoin, which is the store of value.
So it's a very good hedge against inflation and very good asset to have as a part of a portfolio.
So I will give you are correct, but you're from the crypto world. I'm not.
I'm a content creator and I am looking at investing my own money, but I use a lot of Twitter and that's a place where I learn a lot of what Elon Musk talked about. Canadia talk about crypto. I've heard all these amazing. We talk so much about the people. I look up to the people who've achieved something in their life.
And they are talking so much about taking a lot of money and putting it into the whole world of traders talking about it.
Hmm. I want to learn the basics again while I know the basics, I want to ask you some more advanced questions, which maybe will do the second part of this podcast.
But if you have to explain crypto two or three, four year old, how would you explain it? Like, what is it?
Sure. So let's look at the real world example.
When we interact with each other, there are various ways we transfer value, right?
We either give value and form of money or any form of information. Now, when we do this trade of value, our information, we need middlemen. Right.
For example, if you are taking if you want to take a cab unit, companies like Uber or LA, if you want to buy a product online, you need Amazon.
So these are the companies who build this level of trust between two individuals directly transacting with each other.
Because if two people want to communicate, they need a simple party, not imagine the world where you don't need these middleman's and two people can directly transact or exchange value with each other without trusting a centralized party because centralised party can be corrupted right there.
But in future, if there is a way you can transact or transfer this value over the Internet, that's what blocked in to block Tinas, basically a technology that decentralizes that decentralized.
So you are no longer trusting a single entity right now we trust the banks. But we have seen what happened to the banks in the past. We don't have full transparency of how they operate in a decentralized manner. You will have full visibility.
They antireligious public, and you can trust the system more without without the need to trust a centralized party, because the system is designed in a way, you know, one second.
Let me just get this straight so we'll see the case of Punjab National Bank or any other bank that probably shut down. Now, if I put all my money into that Punjab National Bank and every time I was trying to make a payment using a debit card from that bank, but it's shut down. It's going through a lot of it, then your payment doesn't happen. Maybe you're going to see Izarra to do something. And I give that Punjab National Bank card or any other bank card, which is kind of is going through a rough time.
It may not work. It may not because of their flaw, like Punjab National Bank messed up their management or that particular bank messed up their work. And then your money and your spending bill gets affected. Yes. So you're saying that blocked in will remove that gap between you and Azara bodies?
Yes. In order to do a transaction, you don't need a bank. You can directly transfer between two individuals. Not the money that we have. Right. We trust someone that the money has value.
But where did it come from? Right into the trust. Yeah. So where did that come from? Because we trust these middlemen or these brokers to build that level of trust just because that's how society operates.
That's how to operate earlier.
If you look at the evolution of money thousands of years back, people used to transact in gold.
Right? There were things that were made out of gold.
And now then, because gold based transactions are difficult to do, then we shifted to paper money, which used gold as a bargaining mechanism.
Now, that has evolved like in those several years now, money is not backed by anything, right?
So tomorrow, if a bank fails, don't without you, you are a mistake. You are getting affected.
You know, if you look at 2008 financial crisis, what happened, that was a mistake by some of the banks where they have given bad loans and the whole world got into recession, that should not happen.
And that's where Bitcoin was born right up pseudonymous name called Satoshi Nakamoto. He came up with a way where how can you build a monetary system without the need to trust banks?
And you are sure that if you own certain bitcoins that completely belongs to you, it does not have you need assurance from anyone is from a centralised part. It is your own money that you have full control of a beautiful bottle.
So you're saying now 10 years, 20 years into the future when Bitcoin and other cryptocurrency are more common? If I want to buy your suit, I can pay you in Bitcoin and you actually received it and you'll give me sword rather than you having a debit card machine, me having a debit card, putting it into your machine from each other's phones or from some technology you'll be able to transact between each other.
Yes, that can also happen. So there are various ways of crypto assets. So one, for example, Bitcoin is like Essid, just like how you treat gold. Bitcoin is like that. It is a store of value. Right. There are certain currencies that the government will develop. There's something that you might have heard about CBD, central bank, digital currencies.
Now CBD can replace the current financial rupee, right?
That can be a digital rupee, which runs on top of block chain now with blocks. And you will have full transparency of how the money is being used.
Let's say there is a donation and I would go with a lot of the forms of it is donations.
Now, if you want to see the entire ledger, how the money came, where to go, you will have full transparency, transparency of the entire system that has what blocked in provide it.
So again, I'll just make this even's and blow for the end users. Basically, I've been consuming a lot of crypto content lately and understanding I got about Blockin was that I'm not seeing the government, but higher authorities have a lot of layers. So when you are trying to say transfer money from India to Bangladesh, it has to go through many, many, many layers.
But we're blocked in coming and you can skip all those levels that are going through and just take the easy route from person in India to person B in Bangladesh. Suppose I want to travel and cable doesn't and I'm sitting in Bombay. I'll just take shockable lessons and take the money with skipping all those layers of government, all those layers of bureaucracy.
And that's possibly why governments are a little afraid of cryptocurrency.
Yes, you are absolutely right. So this can in theory, it is possible get in that transphobia that it is going to many levels. Even those people can make profit of the money transfer that you are making.
Yes, because it's good. Human beings all want money for themselves.
So you are skipping that. You need the money. Transaction is between you and me. Unshockable has in Bangladesh not all those layers of government officials. And. All right.
So if we see how we transfer the money, right. If I do upgrade to you or if I send a thousand dollars to someone in the US, it does not peer-to-peer there are various elements involved and those homes of people sitting in physical bank branches who are making the transaction happen and that.
A lot of pain that caused a lot of money now with block chain, you can do all of that instantly, near, instantly and almost free of cost.
So you don't need these middlemen.
The system is designed in a way you can transfer value efficiently to the whole financial markets, can improve, can become more efficient, not just efficient, but far more secure than cheaper.
So that will save billions of dollars to the government not talking about transferring money from one country to another. That is where regulations comes into picture. We don't want a world where people just send money to each other anywhere in the world. Right.
That is very good because it can fuel terrorism like it on things. That's why a lot of the public has a negative opinion on crypto. They think if crypto becomes powerful, things like terrorism, things like crime might become a possibility.
But right now, if you look at the database with crypto, less than zero point three percent of the transactions are not being used in the right manner. Right. I mean, like, if you look at fiat currencies, all of these activities still happen. Like with Ayanami, you see that this still happens.
Crypto makes it more transparent. Now you can track the transactions. That's the positive of it.
OK, let me just get this straight so that the users are joining us to see if I'm buying your suit. OK, someone who also owns Bitcoin in USA, who doesn't even know, someone who doesn't even know it.
But because the data of the instrument and our transaction of me buying your suit is in India, that person sitting in the US can actually view our transaction in the transaction.
We will not be able to see whether Rahnavard and someone did the transaction, but they can see in the ledger the transaction happened at this particular time stamp.
So it is secured, transparent, without revealing the identity of the people who are doing the transaction. Manolo, like let's take the case of someone sitting in Afghanistan, warns money to buy guns or whatever, you know, of al-Qaida sitting there and they have Bitcoin with them. They have cryptocurrency with them. If they are buying guns or bombs, obviously, that's an expensive bodies and they are buying guns and bombs from, I don't know, maybe someone sitting in USA making guns and bombs.
Now, that's a big purchase. So everyone who owns Bitcoin will know, OK, there is somebody that's happened in Afghanistan, which is a big amount, which usually doesn't happen. There's something scary going on there. So now let's involve the government authorities or whatever and send people to investigate Jaeckel working well.
So the good thing here is that when we are using the cash rate thousand two thousand note, there is no trace of it here.
You can completely trace how the money went gooseneck, a secret that did it go to the second person. And what was the ultimate place where the funds are used with this?
With the right regulations, you can keep a complete check on the trace of the funds and see whether it was used in the right manner or not.
That is where regulations will help the country, but use the positives of the block chain technology, but use the positives of this underlying trend that we are seeing.
How can we make the current financial systems more efficient, keeping the bad actors out of the system?
So actually, you're saying that all the crypto officials like yourself, you're leading the charge for crypto, we haven't actually introduced you on this podcast, will quickly introduce yourself to the audiences.
Who are you? What do you do?
So I am an engineer turned entrepreneur. I have loved solving problems, doing experiments, taking risks in life, as you can see.
So I during my college, I learned a lot of things about new technologies.
Crypto is one of them. After that, I did my first job at Sony Japan. That's what I heard about Bitcoin for the first time. It is difficult to understand Bitcoin was difficult. I had a hard time.
I left it. I did not invest. If I would have invested in 2014, I would be a millionaire by now. So I didn't invest. But then I felt that that's one of the things that I had.
What if I have learned that time now being in the same state, whether everyone is curious about what is Bitcoin, what is blocked in technology? And that's the thing that I want to solve. Like how can we bring crypto to India? Because there's very little activity that's happening in the country, whereas if you see the other countries, they are more progressive. They are adopting blocked in their building solutions. They are making their current systems more efficient.
They're making it bitcoin friendly, crypto friendly. And I feel there is opportunity for India to grow. And that's that's something you read on Twitter and every other country is figuring out, OK, how do we work with crypto? And in India, a lot of people, especially older people, are saying that many of you don't want to get on you just because of a lack of understanding. So I hope actually this podcast would solve that.
If there are kids watching this, educate your parents in the same way, educate people around you.
So what we were talking about is that there are crypto officials like yourself. It's not an official term, but you are always entrepreneur.
I have two questions.
One, just give the audience some perspective that if you're an investor, I'd say around one like rupees in 2010 and crypto in Bitcoin. How much would that be worth? I mean, I think that would be worth more than 500 calories by no one Larrabee's in 2010, we lost more than 500 growers. I've read of this American Twitter handle. He had started investing his dad's money in crypto. He thought he will create a pension fund for his dad.
I think in 2012, 2013, he took some of that money and said, let's just put it in and see what happens. He's like, it blew up so much that it became his retirement fund and my retirement.
So that's what started. These things are happening in the world and that needs that financial education when it comes to investing in mutual funds in the stock market. But this is not only financial education.
You need to see what the rest of the world is doing coming to history. You know how they say that a lot of the countries in the medieval times, they thought about expansion, they thought about new technology, they thought about going there, taking over other countries.
That's why the British before the British, the French and the Portuguese rulers also keep in mind in South America, the ancient civilizations were completely destroyed because of the Spanish and their technologies. Whichever countries adopt, new technologies become the kings of the next one hundred, two hundred years.
That's what they've done is done this.
That's what I need you to understand. If you look at the Internet, right, in the 1990s, there were companies right now we are seeing Amazon. These are the companies that are built on top of the Internet. Was new 30 years back. Right? People don't know that.
We'll use apps like Uber, you know, eBay to do the transactions. People, countries who adopted Internet and Internet also had a lot of things people could buy. You don't do wrong things on the Internet now. People can dysregulated it.
Countries are trying to promote the use of Internet within their people. And then now you could see billions of dollars worth of companies or trillions of dollars other companies coming out of this Internet alone are India was a little bit behind in terms of adopting this technology. So what happened in India currently has forty four million I.T. developers, engineers. We are we are not that advanced in terms of creating these companies. Right now. We are seeing the shift happening, but an amazing set of talented people.
Right, who can build these companies. Leveraging technology right now, blocked is one such technology. India should not leave behind. And then you will see all of these blocks in protocols, companies coming out of the other countries. Not as much happening in India because the understanding about this technology is fairly narrow in the country. So what we have done to to solve that was we have launched a platform called D6 Loan, which allows any individual to loan crypto block chain right from the basics.
Talk a little bit about your startup. What do you do specifically? What is going DCX?
This is the India's simplest way to invest into crypto assets. If you want to buy Bitcoin, you can buy Bitcoin as low as one rupee. So if you have one rupee, you want to invest Wonderboy into Bitcoin, you can do that too. I acquired six go up. A lot of people have this confusion that, OK, if I want to invest in Bitcoin, but I don't have the money to buy one bitcoin, that's actually not true.
You can only one bitcoin is worth how much in rupees.
Right now it's roughly around thirty five. Thirty six. Thirty six lacs. Yeah but you can also buy one rubick bitcoin which will be point zero zero zero zero. Yeah.
Thirty five thirty Satoshi so one Bitcoin has like hundred million parts to it.
Oh wow. Matlab Satoshi Satoshi Satoshi is there better like our rupee. Yes. Yes.
Wow. OK, and you are actually through going to getting people about the use of bitcoin.
So I mean if you had to educate someone right now who's completely against bitcoin, what would you say are completely against cryptocurrency because also Twitter and is running a gambling hashtag and no one's Bitcoin.
What are you guys fighting against? Is the government coming out with some kind of a policy to ban it? What's happening? Because even I have all my money in Bitcoin.
So what has happened is in a few years back when government was evaluating it, they were looking at Bitcoin as a currency, right. Where people could use it as part of the payment systems, whereas bitcoin is not exactly that. Of course, it can help you transfer value. But if you look technically, it cost thousands of rupees to send Bitcoin from one person to another. That's technically not feasible, not scalable.
So government have like three years back, five years back, there were websites which used to accept payment in bitcoins.
And of course, I mean, there can be bad things that can happen. But in the last few years, the role of Bitcoin as a currency has diminished. Now it is evolving more like an asset class. Now, Bezler investing into Bitcoin, right?
They don't want to send bitcoins from to someone else. They just want to hold it.
So they invested one point five billion dollars in Bitcoin. Yes. OK, well, but and that's with the intention of just let's hold onto this money.
That's let's hold onto that money and try to accumulate as much as possible. Right now, if you go twenty years back in time where gold was, let's a thousand rupees. And you know, that girl is going to go this big, you would want to hold it right? Is worth how I like right now. I think it would be around 50 Larrabee's one gidgee one Gady and maybe longlong back.
It was worth a thousand rupees. One hundred rupees.
Also, Ed Gold has a long history. Gold was also one rupee at some point in time and it has evolved as more and more people start trusting in that.
The value appreciates why. Because gold is a supply constrained thing, right? You can't just make gold our opinion. Yeah, same as Bitcoin. Bitcoin is quoted another way. You can't mint more bitcoins. That's how the system is designed.
So, you know, I just want to highlight something. The whole world is going digital in every possible way. We are entering a world of virtual reality probably in ten years time. Have you seen this video? And I know it's a movie about virtual reality and social media evolve into virtual reality at some point. So when I was starting on my career, everything was virtual, everything was videos, Instagram booms and all my relatives were like, why are you doing this virtual thing?
It's not a real world thing. And I said, No, no, hold on. This will be a lot of money at some point. And today, when they find out how much we charge for an Instagram post or a YouTube video, then they like all of this.
Is that happening in the world of finance where everyone's going to stick to the analog stuff, stick to the old school things?
These are tried and tested and the whole world of crypto saying, wait, you don't know the whole world is going digital. Hold on to this, because this will be worth something in 10, 20 years.
Yes, we are moving to a digital economy, whatever we used to do in the offline world. Now, most of the things have shifted online, right?
When you shifting online, you use a lot of data.
Right. And, you know, data is the new oil. If you are a country which has lots of oil reserves, you'll be super rich. Right.
If you are a company which has lots of data companies like Google, Amazon, Facebook, tons of data, they can use that data to create profits to create use your data, your own data, what you are doing to show out.
So your data in the Internet world is not secured, right? It needs to be. Your data should be with yourself. Right.
That's where the bulletin comes into picture.
And as we are moving in the world of digital, you know, some people say that Bitcoin is like the gold for the digital economy in the offline world.
We have gold where we use gold as a store of value. In the Internet world, we use Bitcoin as the store of value. Whatever we see in the offline world is now currently shifting using this technology in the Internet world. Right now, we are using platforms like YouTube, not imagine a platform where you people are watching it and rather than YouTube taking the commission, all of that commission comes to you. So that's a good structure between the content consumers, content publishers and the advertisers.
And whole of the system can run without a company like YouTube.
So tell me one thing now. Let's talk about the individual consumer, someone who wants to actually buy Bitcoin.
There's two questions. One, is it safe for people to buy crypto right now? Because if the government bans it tomorrow, what happens to Bitcoin? You want what happens to your startup? I'd love to know that scenario also.
Second, I'd love to know actually what and why people should buy it right now with what intention. It's definitely a part of the portfolio, but are you also preparing for the future? So let's talk about that encounter with someone who's watching this and saying, OK, I have some extra money lying around, even if it's ten thousand rupees lying around. But I want to put it in crypto. What should they be thinking? What should they be careful about?
So I think everyone should have Bitcoin as part of their portfolio simply because it's a very good asset to have for better portfolio diversification. Right now we invest our money in a lot of markets and we don't know what can happen.
So you need to diversify it so that you net make good returns on the money that you have invested in.
Now, talking about India, yes, crypto is a new thing. And that's something that I also felt when I was when I heard about Bitcoin for the first time, it was difficult to buy Bitcoin.
Now things have changed. So the app that we were talking about sometime back twenty six goal that allows it just a matter of five minutes. You can purchase our first bitcoin as low as ten.
What do you need? Like you need to give your other card.
Yes. You need to do your KYC, just like you do in any other platform. So you do your job KYC verification. Once you are done with that, you can deposit money from your bank account and purchase Bitcoin. Now, that platform also allows you to store Bitcoin safely so you don't need to put it in a cold wallet or somewhere outside.
You can just put it in the system.
And we as an exchange take care of those funds. Whenever you want to use it, you can sell it anytime you want and then you want to withdraw it.
You can also drive to any other address that you want are beautiful.
But again, about this whole thing about government saying, no, no, we are thinking of banning Bitcoin and what had happened already. We've already put money in Bitcoin.
So what is happening? There's a clear trend in chips.
I was on a panel with Mr. Sapozhnikov, the former finance secretary, and they have mentioned that the understanding that the government had in the past, was it like a legal tender?
All legal tender is something which is like Indian rupees, the note that we use, bitcoin is not supposed to be illegal. Bitcoin is more like an asset class that you hold and invest in for a long time.
So governments have also started realizing that it should be regulated. Right.
And all the RBI and all the government bodies outside, they are also regulated and recognize this as an asset class in US.
If companies like Tesla can invest in it, why are we stopping Indian companies or corporations to invest in an asset class like Bitcoin, which is the future of money? Right. So that trend is shifting. I believe that our governments will also see and try to regulate it so that more companies can come out of Brocton Technology and India.
For example, if India was given this opportunity to hold as much gold as possible, they would want to do it right now.
This is an opportunity in front of us where Indians can buy Bitcoin so that if it becomes a good store of value India, you know, our GDP will increase and India should asset appreciation because of the asset appreciation or wealth within the country will increase.
So is it fair to say that Indians should take a little bit of a risk right now, forget about what is going to happen in the future. Put some money in Bitcoin right now.
Maybe the whole GDP increasing will give the government a reason to say, OK, let's listen to this, no one's Bitcoin hashtag and see what's happening.
Yes, I think everyone should have Bitcoin as a part of their portfolio. It can be point one percent. I agree with you.
Like when you're saying that that's what I was told of a young woman. Ask me for financial advice. I'd say that put something in something.
And that's the thing that we are seeing. There are lots of people on a platform. We have not invested in equity markets. They believe in Bitcoin. They believe that, OK, this is the future of money. I would want to put my money into Bitcoin. And, you know, that's the trend risk to encourage risk.
No, but I agree with you, and especially if you're young, you have eight years of your life left minimum with biohacking going about biohacking a lot.
But you have a long time left. You don't know where the world is going.
You don't know of the whole world is going to get decentralized if America, Europe, China, Japan, Australia, everyone starts using Bitcoin, the Indian government will obviously say, OK, everyone's using it. If we are going to be that world's economic superpower, we'll have to. Yes.
While there is a possibility of government banning bitcoin and banning crypto, that is also a possibility of everyone going on that shooting.
And maybe at that point, Bitcoin value will go a hundred times or what it is right now. Yeah. So while it's at this stage, you should buy it. Yes, you should buy it. And every government is regulating it.
Right. And governments will be forced to it. I mean, you can't technically stop buying Bitcoin or you can't technically stop because it's not controlled by any centralized party.
So there's no point banning it.
I think the right approach would be to understand the technology and regulating it.
Just like what if India would have blocked Internet 30 years back and. Right. We would be far, far behind in terms of technological.
Like North Korea. Yeah, like we would be North Korea. So the world should be more open, open to new technologies.
And I also feel that if we end up banning crypto or we are on path to becoming a North Korea in some way, like so it needs to it needs to be legal just to keep up with the rest of the world.
When I look at the world map, I actually point out Scandinavian countries are probably the most advanced, both in terms of capitalism as well as just, you know, people who have great work life balance, people who are very sort of in their Scandinavia, also back in cryptologic, Norway, Sweden, these places, I think I don't know the exact legality, but all the countries are open to it.
Look, India is going to be the first if India Banjanin is going to be the first country to ban crypto.
Yeah, that's that's I'm not times OK. I probably actually just want to end the basics episode right now.
There's a lot more to talk to you about to the end consumers. That's you guys.
The listeners in the next episode will actually talk about how much money to put away, which cryptocurrency to select and also be revealing where I have put my own money and how to think about that process. What's the actual process? So watch out for particleboard before we go to part. To sum it by any last basic learning you want to add about cryptocurrency, because I feel like this episode. Explain what cryptocurrency is and block gene is anything you want to add to this shot?
See, this is a new asset class. What is very, very important is to understand what this is all about. Right?
I before I started investing, I learned what Bitcoin is, what Lockton is, how it can, how a decentralized future is good for the overall humanity.
I think if anyone is curious about learning more about it, there's a platform desex lands free. Of course, anyone can go and start reading about it from the basics. That's the first thing.
Once you do that, while you know you can also start taking some exposure into Bitcoin. Maybe, you know, starting with as long as we see how how things changes and then gradually based on the risk appetite, build it up from there. So one thing that you should also ensure that you don't put money in all the cryptos. There are some products out there. There are some bad projects. So you should very carefully choose which project you want to put money in and then we'll cover more about it.
Which tokens are good, which is good in the next episode. So this is what it is, man.
This is what the Red Meat Show is taking 10 years of this man's knowledge, putting it into one episode of BASIX. Shani's radioshow would be your friends.
Show it to anyone who is against the idea of cryptocurrency. Let's put education on. They're not debating, not ÀNGEL, not Bias's.
Lots of older people actually are very against the moment, you say, but they going to do so.
I hope that this spark changes it and I hope that the next one gives you actual feasible, actionable steps. Thank you so much.
We will see you in part, Pangkalan.