You know, wanting to be closer to your family is not uniquely Patel. I mean, it's all of us and I think it's at the core of a big struggle that we're having as Americans right now, which is individualism, privacy, while also wanting to be a part of something that's bigger. And I would argue like that's the American crisis that's happening right now is trying to figure out a way like what are our communities? Is our community, our family?

Is our community something bigger than family? Obviously, as a country, we're having an existential moment. I don't know that there's anything more American than the constant need to optimize. It's the need that we all have for more. And it's exhausting. There's never been a more important time in history for people to understand the tenets of essentialism than right now because there's so much noise. If I can keep finding ways to make the pursuit of my own joy and the pursuit of improving my relationships with the people I love, if somehow I can keep making that my work talk about the greatest privilege in life, it's just so fun trying to figure out ways to do better.

And if you can laugh and smile along the way, I mean, that's it's just the real juice in life. That's Ravi Patel. And this is Episode 560 of the Patrol podcast. The Rich Roll podcast. Hey, everybody, welcome to the show. Quick reminder, my brand new book, Voicing Change is now in the wild. A gorgeous Trojan horse it sneaks up on you with its coffee table book is static and photography, but it keeps you hooked with the timeless wisdom inspired from the last eight years I've spent hosting this podcast.

I'm really proud of it. It's available exclusively and only through my website. We are shipping globally and of course, signed copies are available to pick it up and to learn more, visit rich roll dotcom slash v.c. And while you're there, take a moment to also check out our for power meal planner. Thousands of customized plant based recipes at your fingertips, access to nutrition coaches and more offered us a dollar ninety a week at meals. Dautrich Roll Dotcom.

Did I mention the delightful Ravi Patel is on the show today? Why, yes, he is. Many of you may have seen his documentary a few years back. Meet the Patels. That was my personal introduction to this actor, filmmaker, entrepreneur and philanthropist. And it's pretty great. It's this funny, touching first person family adventure movie that he made with his sister in which Ravi enlists his traditional and quite charismatic, I might add, Indian parents in his search for love, which ultimately leads him down this rabbit hole into the world of arranged marriages.

However, the main occasion for today's conversation is Ravis New Limited series on HBO Max. It's called Ravi Patel's Pursuit of Happiness. And it's really fun. Sort of Blue Zones meets down to Earth. My man Darren Olean show travel slash, cultural slash self exploration docu series in which Ravi goes on these cool adventures to places like Korea, Japan and Denmark, immersing himself in his friends and his family in a variety of cultures to find answers to life's questions.

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We talk about his grapple with identity and indoctrination and, of course, his experiences in Hollywood. But then we pivot to the juicy stuff. Ravi shares priceless nuggets of wisdom he's gleaned from his own personal journey and his travels by dint of his new show, Pursuit of Happiness. We dig into questions like Why are Americans so unhappy? How can you be a good parent? And how do you find work life balance? This one is fun. It's lighthearted.

We recorded it pre-election, so no discussion of that. And it's full of uppercase truce on all things love, partnership, parenting, purpose, passion and many other subjects. I love this guy. I like everything that he's about. And this one is definitely a friendship origin story.

I hope you find it as refreshing and as uplifting as I did.

So here we go. This is me and my new BFF, Ravi Patel. What's on that laptop? Talk to me like an outline of something. I hired a private investigator to dig into your life. I'm going to expose it all right now.

Wow. It's my crutch.

So, again, in case I love it completely of a brain fart and can't think of it. Yeah, that's right. That's. We do have at least one good mutual friend, that's Akaash, yeah, I texted him the other day to let him know you were coming in and then I was like, maybe I shouldn't have done that, because then I figured UCLASS is probably going to contact you. He did. Which he did.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But not not not as a result of that. He and I were texting anyway. Oh, you were OK. And in fact, now I'm realizing I still haven't called him back. He called me this morning. I was like, I'll call you a little bit. And I was like, I was like, sorry. And while morning he's like, don't forget, you got you got you got ritual today.

Not like, wait, what is super funny? And then he gave you what I think is the best compliment I would want to hear, which is like amazing normal guy. And those are my favorite kind. Well, I'll try to keep it normal. I try to keep it normal.

I feel like you and I our friendship has gone on a journey. And that journey began. We became very close after the documentary came out. We were hanging out all the time. I felt like we were tight, you and I. Yeah, you and I. And then you disappeared for a while. I pop up here and there. Where did you watch it when it came out, huh? And then I watched it the other day because it's been a while.

When was that? 2007. When did it come out?

No, no, no. You're way off. It came out 2014 or 14, 14. When you get old, it all blends. It took place around two thousand, seven or eight years. Right.

Because you were making that you were making that documentary for a number of years before it came out, right?

Yeah, man. It took a five, five and a half or six years. So it was it was the hardest thing I've ever done. Yeah. I mean, you know, first of all, my sister and I made it together and we were both you know, she had made one documentary before. I had made nothing before. Right.

So neither was I think I think for both of us it was film school. But then on top of that, we're siblings. And I've also found now I know from other experiences, entrepreneurial and creative, that doing things two headed are incredibly difficult because you end up going head to head. Yeah, yeah. You know, when you want different things. So it was exhausting. And, you know, especially when you add onto your siblings and it turned out you were living together, really living together.

And I also think she and I our relationship and not gotten to that point, that if you're lucky with your siblings, one sister. Yeah. An older, younger couple of years younger and where you guys always are. You guys close? Not super close. Like we've never been roommates and we don't run the same city. But but would you say that your friends. Truthfully, yeah.

We we've had ups and downs. Yeah. We're getting closer now.

OK, so so my sister and I were a lot like I think normal siblings where we loved each other because we had to. But if I had to be honest now, looking back in retrospect, I loved her, but I didn't like her. And I wouldn't argue that she probably felt the same way about me.

And because we were you know, that making that movie is similar to what having a kid with in a marriage does to you. Sure.

Or starting a business together or anything. Yes.

It's like a stress test of your ability to work as a team. Yeah. And it turns out, man, it yourself, we we fought so much. But, you know, it was awful. And there was a day where we kind of like we're sitting across from other remember, she came over and it was to have a talk and it was kind of like and I just started crying and I was like, I'm so tired of hating you and feeling like.

I'm making you hate me like I'm a bad brother, I don't this isn't the life that I want for us. And she started crying, too, and it was like it was a very like sibling. Jerry Maguire breakdown. Breakthrough. But it brought you together. Well, that's what I'm saying. I mean, I think both of us, like we both went to therapy after that. And, you know, I can say now that as a result of making that movie that we figured out a way we kind of forced ourselves in the same way that you have to do to marriage, where you have to decide these things that annoy me about the other person that I don't like.

You have to find a way to accept them in the same way that we have to find a way to accept the things about ourselves. Like I feel like that has been my journey as an adult has been learning to love the things that I've always carried shame about and decide that they're like they're part of us. Right. That's the hardest part. Oh, it's all I mean, all of it's hard to me.

They're all kind of different. It's different manifestations of the same thing, which is like acceptance and love. Right.

When I went back and watched the movie this past week, it was interesting. First of all, on the subject of your sister, you take like a shot at her about the cinematography, you know, and there's sort of aspects of it, you know, just in the past couple of years, like technology has advanced so much and the you know, the cameras have gotten so much better.

So there's a like a lo fi aspect to so much of the footage. When you go back and you look at it, it's an understudy. It doesn't matter because the storytelling is so engrossing.

Like you're just you're all in from the get go. But I can see, you know, how like enmeshed you guys were throughout that process to get it done.

Oh, yeah, man. Well, actually, the the the visual lack of the lack of visual quality in the film was a problem. I mean, we we we got rejected from every major film festival for years in a row.

And I think, you know, there are two major points of inflection, I think in making that movie, what it ultimately became. And, you know, one of them was realizing that we were trying to make a romantic comedy in a documentary, and we realized that the the like female love. Like the female love archetype was not actually Audrey, it was my mom, and so that a big structural impact on story. But the second thing was.

She and I, my sister and I, we do like 30 to come to this movie deciding to lean into the essence of the movie, like Lean In instead of trying to make it something that it wasn't, which meant, OK. It's our story like go into the cultural nuances, go into all the specifics, even if it's not relatable. Don't worry about the commercial elements of the film. And part of that also meant. Hey, this quality, this home video quality of the movie is that's what we have, that's what this is.

So let's actually lean into that. Let's call it out. Let's make it actually instead of an obstacle, let's make it a strength of the movie. And so we tried to make it and and I realized, you know, and I think over time it ended up making the story more real and intimate, you know, once we decided to accept it. Yeah.

And the audience is always right. Right. So film festivals aside, ultimately, there was an inflection point where it connected with audiences and the audiences were like, this is a good movie and this has to be. And then suddenly it's in theaters everywhere.

It was a crazy trajectory. I want to connect. Thanks for saying. I'm surprised you noticed that. But that is exactly what I mean. It was. It was. Oh, man. It was such a beautiful. And to do that with my sister and with my family like and and it's had an intense impact on us as a family, but also our careers. It really was. It was like the audience brought that like made that thing happen.

They talked about the movie, they told you they brought each other, despite what Hollywood was saying, that that movie was that the audience did exactly.

It was it was, well, really cool.

And I want to say that selling honesty in the storytelling is what rules the day. And, you know, looking back on it, too, it's kind of like a cultural artifact. It's sort of presaged what you see on YouTube now, like the blogging culture, because it's so hands on hand-held and you're in the moment with these people and you just feel like you're in a relationship like. So when I joked with you at the beginning, like, you know, our frame, you know, like I'm just meeting you right now for the first time.

But I do feel like I know you. And that's because of the kind of authenticity and the stripped down quality of of that project.

Well, I feel the same about you from listening to your podcast. I mean, that that is two of them.

Yeah, but you have I mean, this is I don't remember if we were going already at that point, but you have of an authenticity to you at that. You're just very accessible, a familiarity. And and I think that is the beauty of this medium. That's what I love about podcasting. I love doing podcasts because it is a rare kind of conversation that I get to have.

We would not be I actually feel like you and I are the rare. Like if these weren't here, we'd probably be having the same conversation, same conversation.

That's the idea. Like, if we were just meeting for lunch or dinner, I would be talking about the same thing.

But I think that says more about you and I and probably our compatibility conversationally. But generally speaking, the conversations I have in podcasting are unique because they're so focused on every two or three people that are there are mutually focused on creating. The best conversation possible and usually when you're hanging out with people, conversation is not so you're not you're not really working towards a goal of great conversation. You're chill and you're hanging out. Yeah, it's just a little more casual.

Yeah, I think that's true.

I mean, that's what I'm trying to create here. But, you know, I don't know. The audience can be the judge of that.

You can you can be the judge of that. Yeah.

We should probably point out for people that are listening or watching, who haven't seen Meet the Patels, that it's a story essentially about your search for love and this journey that you go on with your traditional Indian family back to India on this quest to, you know, explore what it would be like if you were to basically get an Indian bride in the context of that tradition.

Right? Yeah.

And all the shenanigans. And then we come back to the states. Yeah. And then we come back to the states and my parents start setting me up with Indian girls around the country through this process. That is pretty standard within our community, which is setting me up with other girls who are last name battal through these things called biodata, which matrimonial readymades. And in the end, meanwhile, there was this, you know, white girl that I had never told them about.

Who, by the way, I'm still friends with.

And that was my big question in talking about the arc of our relationship.

Like, I felt like I deserve an explanation because it drops off with you and Audrey. Yeah. And then it picks up with the TV show and I'm like, wait, you're married and you have a kid. Like, what happened?

We we got to talk. Yes. So did you just did you just find this out?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, when I watch the I watch the show and I was like, what happened to Ottery?

So it's so funny because when when the movie came out. Audrey and I were no longer together. Mean it took six, six and a half years and then, you know, the process of getting out. And so the audience reaction, you know, because the film has like a pretty I wouldn't describe it as a cult following, but it's like people are big fans, like there are some really big fans of that movie. And when they found out that I wasn't with her, the reactions were like everything from like, first of all, my wife looks Indian, but she's not.

And so there's doesn't have to have white. Yeah.

And people who watch that movie would look at her and be like, you fucking sellout. You dumped the white girl and you went and got your parents wife. And I'm like, well, wait, hold on. First of all, she's not Indian Zygon of all. That movie happened at a point in time. That was a long time ago.

And actually, you know, it's funny because we talked about like, is there a world in which we can look like we had a lot of ethical conversations as the movie was coming out, like, would it make sense to add a coda that, you know, we've now broken up like a postscript at the end and must have been weird for Audrey when the movie was in theaters and stuff like that?

Yeah, I think it's good for her the whole time. Yeah. I mean, she's a private person, but yeah, totally. I mean, she's been an incredible sport. I you know, I did this for everyone who was in the movie because they're all friends and family. I let them watch it and they take out whatever you want. And she was obviously the highest priority. And so, you know, thank God I had her she gave me her blessing, but truthfully, she gave me her blessing for that movie.

It's it's it's a testament to how loving of a person she is because she clearly I can tell you, she did it purely because she knew what it meant to me and my sister. She if she had her way, that movie would never have gotten out just because it's like.

Yeah, it's like why would she like why would you want to move a documentary about her, like, so private and but I am glad that she comes off, you know, in the way that she does in the movie, which is she's good now.

She's always she's always been good with me. I mean, I'm glad to hear you know, I'm sure there have been small moments here and there and there may be resentments that I don't know about. But like, you know, I tried I tried really hard, especially with her, to to do it in a way that was always with her blessing, because, like, I always had, my sister and I both always had the opinion that the movie doesn't matter in the scope of life as much as like it was just such it's a big deal for you to for people you love, to let you put a camera in their face so that that always mattered more to us.

Yeah, well, behind the lens, like there's this deep affection and love that you have for your family and its traditions and your parents, which we're going to get into because they're superstars, they are men.

And this sort of openness and humility around this search for love, like this idea that we do things a certain way in America. And layered on top of that is this sense of like American exceptionalism, like whatever we're doing is the best way. And you're kind of in real time, like rethinking that or deconstructing it and saying, well, maybe there is something to this Indian way that I'm overlooking, like the humility to kind of set aside, like, your ideas about what might work and what might what might not work.

And you give yourself over to this process.

And what ensues is essentially like like a like an analog algorithm, you know, that's similar to the dating apps, but but sort of manually administered by this network of Indians.

You know, it's not that's not dissimilar at all. It's it's really not. This is actually functioning exactly like swipe left on Tinder. Oh, just in it.

Just in a different intercept, you have the help of some older Indian women and men like there. And then you see all these hits, the brick and mortar version of Tinder. Right. And you're like, well, I remember you you did a podcast with Pete Holmes a while back. And Pete was saying that he was rooting for you to marry, you know, to find the Indian woman. And I found myself thinking the same thing, like, I want this to work.

And then I'm like, wait, like, don't. I think this is retrograde, but yet I'm still kind of, you know, hoping that it's going to work out because I see your parents who are so happy, who knew each other for all of ten minutes before they got married or whatever it was, and have now been together for forty years and are full of joy in life and have this beautiful, you know, ethic of service and, ah, you know, exude gratitude and all the things that, that we all want.

And by the way, now being married for a little while now, my perspective on that whole, like I'm even. More on their side of the court in terms of what really makes a relationship work. I was talking to my buddy the other day on the phone and I was saying that now that I've been married for as long as I have, what I realize more than ever is really, you know, all those things that I thought mattered in the in a partner like they didn't like the things that really mattered, in my opinion now are.

Kindness and loyalty and commitment, like if someone like and after those three things, I think you can kind of be married to literally anyone. I really feel that way. Like I think if you have those three things, then you have someone who can be your your co CEO through life. And it's just a matter of figuring out how to be together, how to love each other, how to see each other, which is all borne out of that commitment and kindness and kindness, especially, I think is get you more mileage in anything.

I mean, my wife and I had like the toughest time, the first couple of years, especially with our kids, like having a kid kind of early in our relationship. And it was tough. I thought we would make it through. And but it's because of those fundamental things that we both had that we made it through those times. And as a result of doing that work, I think we're like a much better team now. By the way, I'm curious, I was going to ask you if you saw the film differently, having just watched it recently versus like if there was a difference to you watching it the second time at a different point in your life?

That's a good question. I mean, I've been I've been with my wife now for 20 years, and we've got I've got two stepkids and two daughters. So I'm further down the path on all of this than you are a little bit, I think when I first saw it.

So that was 2014 trying to remember. I don't know if it was that different. I mean, the thing that that's that's stuck out for me the most was just like the difference in, like I already mentioned, like in like this sort of video quality now. Yet you expect that you in terms of theme, you know, no, I think it holds up.

I mean, if anything, it's like, you know, my relationship to it is is pretty much the same.

Did you did you did it make you and you don't have to have an answer to this. But did it did has it have you did it make you think about your life in any way?

Yeah, well, I think what it did was and this was the point I was just about to make, is it makes you rethink this idealized Western notion of what love is, you know, to kind of echo what you were just talking about. I mean, it's almost a set up here. It's like your partner has to live up to some ridiculous standard. You have to they have to be super sexy. They have to you have to you have to have, like, passion for them all the time.

You have to you have to be compatible. You have to have shared values. They have to be your best friend. They have to be able to be your business partner. Like there's so many boxes that have to get checked for you to say this is the person for me. And fundamentally, when you look at your parents and you think, well, they didn't go through that like rubric, you know what I mean? They took this amazing leap of faith and they figured it out as they went along.

So if that's the way it's worked for them and you look at the divorce rates in the developed world, it makes you think like maybe we do have this wrong. Like what is really important and when you talk about kindness and compatibility, like, you know, I think that those things get overlooked and are kind of lower on the pecking order than. Yeah. And have a job or fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like if this person is not hot enough for me.

Yeah. Yeah. Or fun or you know. Yeah. I mean.

Right.

But I think collusions they have to be, they have to constantly and have to have a cool fulfilling career and all this, all this shit that when you're married you're like oh none of that would even matter right now if that was because that doesn't affect you laying next to each other in bed, you know. Right. Just hanging out. It just has no impact on that. But those things that you just said, kind of compatibility, those are actually part of that arranged marriage rubric through the they're just very values of community first that are embedded.

Right.

That's part of the reason why Patels want to marry, because it's because they believe the same like they have the same allegedly the same values that are about community first.

Right. There's commitment.

But in America, we don't have that kind of bonded community that you have in India.

Right. It's certainly not ill-Defined Diaspora. Yeah. Like where it's all about individualism. You know, it's it's a different cultural priority. And what was fascinating about the documentary is how the Patels, when they migrated west, they recreated that network through, you know, basically this massive game of telephone, you know, and sending around these essentially resumes of the people that are trying to get married. And we're able to kind of maintain on some level that sense of being plugged in with each other that they had back home.

I would venture to guess that it's actually I think one of the reasons why so many people gravitated towards it is because the, you know, wanting to be closer to your families is is not uniquely Patel. I mean, it's it's all of us. And I think it's at the. Or of a big struggle that we're having as Americans right now, which is individualism, privacy, while also wanting to have be a part of something that's bigger. And I would argue, like, you know, that is that's the American crisis that's happening right now is trying to figure out a way like what are our communities?

Is our community, our family? Is our community something big in the family? Obviously, as a country, we're having an existential moment. I don't really have.

Well, what complicates it is when you juxtapose that against this idea of individuality, like what's important is like what I want to do and my success equation and the path that I'm on. And that has to take priority over whatever relationship I have to my community. Like, that's feels backwards to me and should be the other way around it if we want to move forward productively.

Yeah, well, I think it's because there's like a false and this is very American, which is this false sense of like thinking that self realization and the athleticism of getting to the your highest potential in life is a selfish endeavor. I think at least in my case, I feel like getting to the my highest potential as an individual is fully part of my role and my family, like it's all about my relationships, about being a better husband, a better father, a better son.

And, you know, all the people I'm like in my culture, like my Indian culture, I feel like are really trying hard to be the best versions of themselves while also becoming the best members of their community. But they don't have to be disparate thing. Yeah, yeah. But I think what what what's uniquely American is the priority on, like the career path like that.

That's achievement. Yeah. Yeah.

Like so when you talk about being your best self that really means like how can I how can I get ahead professionally. How can I be financially successful. Well yeah.

But I also think that is that's why I like your show exists, is, is to to help people reconfigure that false notion of happiness. Right.

I mean, I think everything about I think all these kind of like pursuits of spirituality, mindfulness, meditation, self-help, yoga, like all of this to me is a rebellion that's happening in society right now.

Out of a need to figure out a way to feel connected to each other and, you know, closer to your own purpose.

Yeah, but I think I think a lot of that is motivated by the fact that so many people have pursued the more the traditional path and then come up against a ceiling with that and realize like, this is not making me happy or I was doing all the things I thought I was supposed to do. I was, you know, I was like, you know, paying attention all the advertisements and trying to accumulate all the material possessions and, you know, climb this corporate ladder only to find out that there's no there there.

I mean, there's nothing more American crisis. I mean, that crisis right now, I mean, I did an episode about that crisis.

I mean, I don't know that there's anything more American than the constant need to optimize. And it is you know, I was listening to your social media episode on the way here. That's what is at the core of that. Yeah, it's the need that we all have for more. And it's exhausting. There's never been a more important time in history for people to understand the tenets of essentialism. Right. Than right now, because there's so much noise.

I mean, specifically the social media, the I was like, oh, I like it's a it's a conversation that I think all of us are obsessed with right now. I, I just made my social media public like a month and a half ago. Oh, really? Yeah.

And it's interesting, AdCom, because I've always been scared of like I've never been attracted to social media in terms of I just have never been a guy like is on there all the time or and I've always seen the toxicity of it like I've known always whenever I've posted things that I check likes, like that feels terrible to me. I feel something happening in my brain just when I'm holding my phone, even if I'm not looking at it. I feel like a fanaticism in my brain.

And right now I'm addicted to my phone more than I ever have because I've so much work stuff happen here. And it it's like I'm ready to make big changes in my life for my brain in general, which we should talk about at some point, whether, you know, and then I made my my profile public and I am like here I am. I have the Shok.

I have, you know, a bunch of things coming out. And, you know, I have people telling me, hey, you need to do something, get your social media numbers up. They make you look less successful than you are. I'm like, OK, that's like literally the reason why I was private this whole time. Now, if I if I was still private, I wouldn't have to worry about it. But now I have like seventeen, eighteen thousand followers.

I'm at this point where like I can't, I can't be like I'm just like a weird private. Yeah. And now like I was like changed by followers. Maybe let's just be followers. I don't care. Like let's just, let's get this game out of the way or get a bottle anywhere. I'm on board. Yeah. Just because I have no problem with it.

I think the whole thing is so stupid. Anyway, I'm deep in that existential. Oh right. Now. Well it's about your relationship to it.

I mean, you've got this show out right now, so you have a vested interest in trying to make sure people know about it and all of that. And as long as you can create some healthy boundaries around it, I think I'd be all right.

I wish I just wish there is an Instagram where there weren't likes or comments like they should get rid of all of that.

I would be so down like that, because I do like communicating with the audience and I like hearing back for them, but I don't like the likes and I don't like the metrics side of it at all. It doesn't feel good. Well, that's one thing about having a TV show like there's no comments section below the the stream where you go. You can read what people think of it in real time. Yeah.

It's just out there, you know. Yeah. And well, let's get to the new show, because in many ways, like, it's it's very related to the original documentary, the original documentary being again, like you go on this quest to answer a question for yourself and you're willing to set aside like your idea of what you think is right. And you're I think one of your superpowers is just being open. You know, like, let me hear what you what you think.

Like, maybe I don't have it right. Like, what do you have to say? And you go on these adventures to find answers in different cultures. And it's cool, man. I think, you know, it speaks again to, you know, this idea that in America we think we've got all this stuff figured out. The the name of the show is the pursuit of happiness. Like, are we happy in America? Like, not really.

You know, not really.

If you look at the statistics, a lot of depression, a lot of mental illness, so much anxiety and stress now more than ever. So let's go to these other places and see what they're doing. And, you know, I learn a lot. There was a lot of stuff that I didn't realize, like I was in Copenhagen last summer, like last July. I fell in love with that city a lot. This place is fantastic. I mean, we were there around the same time.

Probably looked like it was in the summer when you were there, right? Yeah. And everyone's swimming and like, you know, sunbathing like this is crazy.

Like, I'm ready to move here. Oh, I'm lendable bikes and canals and bridges. I'm like, let's go. And then I was all bummed out. Yeah. You're like, oh, I really enjoyed it because, all right, we'll be right back, but first, we're brought to you today by my friends at NATO. All right, folks, the holidays, the right around the corner, they're almost here.

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All right, back to the show. You know, same thing with, like, your adventures in Japan, like I had no idea about the detachment with the young kids and, you know, watching that little boy go on, you know, a grocery shopping adventure by himself, I was like, that's unbelievable.

It's not wild.

Yeah, that was one of the coolest things we did. And obviously, I'm sure you had the same thought would never be able to do that, you know, for so many reasons. One, we're just like, you know, I think the American notions of parenting are so we've become very protective and fearful. Yeah.

And but also, I don't know that it's say it's not safe. It's it's not safe.

It is a different world. But I think we've the pendulum has swung too far. Like Jonathan Haidt wrote a book about this as well. Like there's a lot of conversations happening around this very subject at the moment that overprotection, you know, is not in service to our kids that allow them to have experiences and, you know, skin their knees and fall down. And, you know, I sound like an old man, but like you, you know, I'm older than you.

But, yeah, we discussed this in the episode. It's a really important ride my bike around and I'd be gone all day and back for dinner and nobody thought twice about it. Yeah.

I mean, I think there's something about the way millennials were raised specifically that has led to a groundswell of overprotective like parenting. And it comes at great cost at the cost of it is great. The cost of it is perseverance.

And another thing I would say is an inability to cope with unfairness. Mm hmm. And I see that now. And a lot of people who even like like like a lot of my employees are like have trouble coping with unfair moments at work and. You know, in my generation, like like unfairness is actually part of the game, but you don't you don't you don't let unfairness slow you down. Yeah, you know that unfairness is a part of the fabric of life.

And every great experience, there's a spectrum with these things.

I mean, if you're being sexually harassed or there's some kind of, you know, racist behavior, that's one thing. But you're having difficulties trying to figure out how to navigate personality is a different thing altogether. And this war, this war is really being waged, you know, in academia where now like an idea that we disagree with is something that needs to be banned as opposed to cancer, entertained and and and argued against like you develop your sense, your value system and your sense of what is right and wrong by, you know, butting up against ideas that you don't agree with and stress testing them.

And that's kind of what college is about.

Yeah, I totally I totally agree. And, you know, it's yeah. It's about the marketplace of ideas.

Right. The idea that you're going to hear things you like and things you don't like. And by hearing as many different ideas as possible, you're able to discern truth from that, right? You're right. That's that's happening right now in a very big way. And it's it's disappointing. I mean, I will say the upside of all of that and I think you kind of alluded to it is that, you know, it also has out of it is borne like a real culture of activism and passion.

That right. Is awesome.

Yeah, it's amazing. So, again, it's like these things are nuanced. It's not a black and white, good or bad thing. Like that's a positive thing that's come out of this.

I think the parenting thing is bad. I'll say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think over parenting I have a huge problem. Yeah. But it's also part of my wardrobe. But your wife, your wife is more on the protection side. Yeah.

That's why I'm saying, I'm saying, I'm saying it out of resentment right into the books.

This is the way we have to do it. And you're like on a laissez faire kind of.

Yeah. I mean truthfully she and I believe the same things because we've talked about it so much.

But our inclinations are could not be more opposite, you know, did go into Japan.

If my daughter is about to fly on her scooter, I'll give you. These aren't my daughter, right? She's like three now. She's about turn four. And in November, if she's going on a scooter and I see that she's about to hit something or fall, my inclination is to let her fall, let it fall.

I'm not running after her and I'm not really unless it's like something really bad. I'm not going to even try to stop it from happening. OK, my wife is in a full on sprint and vocalizing and then helping her up. And, you know, we both believe in the concept that you and I just discussed, but our inclinations are such the opposite.

And it's something that but the tension between those two things probably is going to produce a healthy kid. Right. You need a little bit of both.

That's kind of where we end up actually is. It's great that you said that, because that's kind of and it's that it's that it's that understanding between us that allows us to not get pissed off. Yeah. We should explain what happened in Japan. I mean, you go to Japan and part of the idea is like, I want to learn a little bit more about parenting. And they're doing something very different in Japan where they have extreme attachment when the kids are very young.

And yeah, literally the baby is attached to the mom's hip 24 hours a day. There's no date nights. There's no babysitters like it's all about the kid. And then like a switch gets flicked at age six and you're like you're on your own.

And they literally you show this family that sends their six year old boy on a track like he's got called the first Aerin. He has to walk a half mile to a grocery store and basically get the food for dinner and by himself crossing streets in a city.

People seem totally cool with that, right? Like in L.A., like there would be you get arrested, he would get he would have been picked up by the cops before he got to the grocery store. Oh.

And social services would be knocking on the door and five. Yeah, yeah. And everyone just treated it like I was the funny thing.

We were like the checkout person was like, look, she's acting like this is normal. Yeah. You know, meanwhile we're tracking him like we're stalkers.

Right, because we're making a show about it. But it was. Yeah man it was, it was eye opening. That whole thing, by the way, strong themes of, you know, what we were talking about earlier. You know, it could not be more the opposite in terms of individuality there. And you find that to be the difference with these countries that we see as better countries like that are that are more organized or have a stronger sense of community.

That kind of dark side. And most of these countries is that they're actually that way because they're culturally homogenous or at least ideologically homogenous, which means anyone who doesn't fit in that frame.

Work is in some way suffering or oppressed. To me, that is actually the beauty of what we're going through right now as a country is I feel like we have these minority communities that actually have a voice that are able to fight because in other countries, we don't even know that they're suffering here. I think we have a lot a diversity of voices that's actually going through a reconciling of trying to become one. My hope, and I think that we're already seeing this in a lot of ways, is that this ends up being our Arab Spring.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think there certainly is a sense of significance around what's happening right now. And, you know, we all saw what happened in the wake of Arab Spring, too. There was a you know, there was a backlash against that and it kind of swung the other way. But I feel like we're we're in a very special moment right now where those voices are being heard and we're reckoning with, you know, how to move forward as a country.

Yeah, it is a it is a crisis point right now. And here we are heading into the election. Who knows what's going to happen? Yeah, I mean, literally, like whoever the show runners are of this crazy television show called 2020 that we're in right now, you know, it's just bananas what's going on and definitely could not agree. There's nothing that's off the table at the moment, that's for sure.

Are you are you and your wife, are you guys pretty involved with the election or is it something that you're passionate about? Yeah. Your relationship A. I mean, I think, you know, look.

Everybody has a different way of being an advocate for what they believe in, and I'm not the one who's, like, pounding the drum, vote, vote, vote on social media all day long.

Like I use I use this podcast as a as a platform to have more nuanced conversations about these kinds of things without outright, you know, telling people what they should or they shouldn't think or do. But certainly we need change, you know.

Do you believe in talking about your political beliefs? And to an extent, you know, I'm reluctant to you know, I'm not a political pundit and I want to make this about politics. But I think what what we're experiencing right now transcends politics.

It's about identity, you know, and it does speak to, you know, how we think about this place that we live in as a community and how are we going to cohere when we're so fractured right now and our ability to even have hard conversations has become so difficult and fractured.

Yeah, you know, I'm not big into politics by any means. I never have. And this is the first election where I've decided to try to bring awareness to voting. And just the election in general is not even feeling super confident that I'm, you know, by any means the smartest guy to talk to on this stuff. But to your point, I think this is the first election I've ever felt that is about something that transcends politics. It's about humanity.

I think it's about decency. And it's just a scary time. I also think at the core of that is something that I find uniquely American, which is like I don't talk about politics and I think it has a lot to do with not wanting to. Not willing to cause a ruckus. I want to know, like there's some people who like to talk about politics means it's going to be controversial. Like why does it have to be controversial to have a different opinion from someone like you can talk about wanting to order different things on the menu without I mean, I guess the point being that someone else's opinion could potentially threaten your own existence.

But talking about it is also the only way that you can. It's the only way. It's the only way. I mean, that's something you explored in the in the Copenhagen episode pretty thoroughly. Like one of the things that that guy said, I forget he was so smart.

The ball, the dark is it was the guy who said, look in Denmark, like we we you know, people aren't aren't shrouding their political ideas. Like they talk about them like it's out in the open. Right. And when you start to, you know, kind of, you know, keep them quiet, that's when they fester and become malevolent. Like everything everything is kind of out in the open there, for better or worse. I mean, they certainly have problems there, as you saw.

But I think what you what you're able to do is sit with people who see the world very differently and make them comfortable. And whether that's a people pleasing technique that you've developed as a defense mechanism growing up or just, you know, a soft, like social touch that allows you to connect with people, whatever it is, you're very good at that.

And thinks we saw that probably both is the guy who, like my favorite line in the whole thing is you're like you're going to meet that that Syrian dude who's like in who's in the government in Denmark. And you're like this guy. Like the Bobby Jindal of Denmark, right? Yeah.

And you sit with this guy who has a very different worldview than you, but you're able to have, like, not just productive conversation, but almost like a fun convert like you made him feel comfortable.

Well, I think to have thanks for saying that. It's certainly intentional, but also borne out of, you know, various insecurities and people pleasing stuff you got well, growing up, you know, South Asian in the south.

And it's a fair that's a fair neighbors and things like that, like you had to figure out a certain way to navigate the world. Yeah, I think. Good. Yeah, I think you're right, man. I mean, I think, you know, look, I grew up in North Carolina, so I grew up in the South and I grew up around I grew up short. All these things that made me want to essentially I was trying to make sure you're not that short.

I'm you know, I'm Casper Short. I'm five, six and like half an inch. Not too bad. Thanks, bro, that you told people if you guys just not.

That's all. Five, ten, you're five, ten. I'd kill it. I would if I was five, ten keepers, I wouldn't even be here. I'll tell you what I'd be too. I'd be way too big.

Yeah, you'd be with Tom Cruise up on the big screen.

Oh, I mean, five, ten. I'd be the most powerful man on earth. It's all. It's all about height. Yeah. I'd be in like eight sports leagues. I'd be like, yeah.

Did you play basketball at USC? Yeah. Wouldn't that have been nice. Yeah. Yeah I was. I play ball a lot back then. I played J.V. basketball in high school. That was as far as I got your I mean you're clearly an athlete not keeping an eye hand coordination guy. Yeah, an endurance guy.

Yeah. You know, it's so funny that it's almost always two different groups of people. There's the like triathletes, then there's people. I'm obsessed with sports. In fact, I want to really soon do something big in terms of changing my habits and my lifestyle. And one of the destinations is to make it so I can play sports again because I realized spiritually there's just something so special about it. There's something so feeling like to me of playing sports.

Well, you're talking to the right guy. I can help you out with that. Listen, listen. This is what I want to do. I'm not even kidding, OK? I found out, you know, four months ago that I have ADHD, which is the least surprising thing ever in the history of medicine. And I you know, I experience a lot of brain fog. Focus is an issue. I'm not organized. But conversely, like all add ADHD people, which you may maybe as well, you know, very creative, very excitable, all those things.

What I want now, because I'm a father and I want to I want to I want to be able to devote more real estate to non achievement and that and and my brain is so constantly opportunistic, not necessarily the negative way. I'm just always thinking of ideas. I just love it. And now I want to figure out a way to be more positive. I like to just chill and be present when I'm with my daughter, when I'm with my wife, when I'm watching a TV show or reading a book.

Anyway, all that to say I'm ready to make a big change. In my life, I have been trying these drugs are not working, I hate them, and so now with the with brain, with brain power, brain focused memory, the brain itself being the final destination, I want to do some big wholesale thing. Maybe I get a bunch of my friends to do it. Maybe it's a social media thing. I do. I know that when I turn things into projects, I do a better job of writing my own narrative within them.

That's what he's done. Well, season two of the pursuit of happiness could be about. Well, I think it's going to be an audio documentary because I've already kind of started already taping these things. Some of the some of the things I've been doing to research work. But I think what I'm going to do is change my diet, start to exercise regularly, change my body. I'm going to change my habits. And I'm going to I want to have a routine for the first time I've which I've never had a routine.

And I'll probably take some nootropics and things to help my brain. So, so, so nutritional changes. These are all things that I'm assuming are at the crux of who you are and who you've become.

Yeah. Like you want to you want me to hold you accountable because I can do that. Let me tell you something.

I would kill to have you hold me accountable and you can help me. Can I send you what I think is like a starting point for what the program could be? Yeah, I've had a couple of friends I've talked to about this who have helped me kind of put together, but it's all like hitting these big buckets of. I want to have I've always been so admirable of people like you who are able to take such a athletic approach to life in general, but at the same time, I've been fearful that that approach can lead to a mental like it seems like a lot of people who have that approach to life are so obsessed with optimizing their lives that it comes at the expense of a sense of peace and chill.

I don't know. How do you know what you're saying?

Well, there's a whole like you're kind of referring to the kind of bio hacker community. Yeah. Where it's all everything is you're optimizing every second of every day. Yeah, I'm not really about that. I have a much more kind of eastern holistic approach to all of these things.

And I've done crazy things in and, you know, sports in the insurance world and things like that. But for me, you know, I'm I turn 54 in like a week, like, you know, for me it's all about trying to make sure that I'm showing up for my life the best that I can and all of these categories as a father, you know, as a as a business person and as a partner to my wife. And, you know, how do we how do we effectively navigate the world?

In our most authentic, evolved incarnation across the board in this, I started this podcast for that very purpose, like I'd reached a point, I wrote a book, shared my story, and I'm like, what's next? I had all these blind spots and in in my growth that I had to reckon with and confront and ultimately overcome. But that doesn't mean that the growth stops. The growth continues. Like, what else am I blind to? What are the other areas that I'm not paying attention to?

And, you know, curiosity is fuelled like this exploration on the podcast of trying to basically do like an audio version of what you did with your TV show, which is like, how can I be a better human? Like, well, this person over here seems to have an idea or two, let's go talk to that person and then synthesizing that like, you know, over the years, you know, it's a very imperfect thing. And I certainly am highly flawed and have lots of problems.

But I'm in a better place now as a result of doing this.

So merging like where I think we're aligned is trying to figure out how to how to merge our curiosity and our professional interests with our own growth trajectory, you know what I mean? And use those all together. The problem with that is that then you're always working and then you have to look at that.

Well, yeah, my thing. My thing, especially because I have this I've I've had have this too. It's like everything I do is actually so personal and purposeful and so that can be doesn't feel like work. That can be a but that's but that's also a cop out for always working.

Right. We're working right. Like we're working right now. We're working.

But I don't feel like this is this I would say this specifically is very different. It's very different. Yeah.

I've realized just because I'm older and I'm starting to realize my mortality, that I have so many things about what I do that's forward looking.

And I want to figure out a way to have better days. Like how was today was today fun as fuck in some way? Was it fun as fuck? And that to me is really reframed how I spend my time. Can I ask you this? Because and ultimately, by the way, the goal of this conversation for me, we can talk about whatever you want is I want to I would love. For you to make some suggestions on the game plan by the time we're doing all right, I want to first ask you, do you have do you have a routine every day?

Do you have specific habits every day? Like is your time you wake up? Are there certain things you eat a certain time?

Yes and no. You know, yeah, I have I have like, benchmarks that I try to hit every day. But that doesn't mean that I hit them every day and I try to be a little loose with it. So I don't create something that's so, you know, calcified that I feel shameful if I don't do it. But, yeah, I you know, look, I'm I'm self-employed and we're in a pandemic right now. So does it really matter what time I wake up in the morning?

Yeah, yes and no. I wake up when the sun comes up naturally. I don't set an alarm.

Then I, I, I meditate and I journal in the morning and then I work out and I try not to schedule any meetings or any conference calls or any kind of work related stuff that involves me talking to other human beings until after 12. And I try to protect that time for my own creative pursuits and for training and working out and things like that and being with my family. That doesn't happen every day. You know, there's plenty of times where that gets intervene for various reasons, but that's kind of the general rule.

And then the afternoons are for work and, you know, making sure that I'm home with my kids and because I work from home, I'm around them all the time. So the trick is what we were just talking about, which is that work bleeds into everything, like you're kind of always working and you're never working. So when are you turning it off? Do you have hard and fast like boundaries around that kind of stuff, or does it just bleed into everything that you're doing?

What time you go to bed? Between nine and ten. Do you have a bedtime routine doing nighttime routine? I sleep in a tent in the backyard. Yeah, right. I do. Nayda Yeah I do set up. I do.

I've talked about this a lot on the podcast, so I assumed that we could talk about it afterward with your wife.

No, that's a whole other thing to talk about. The worst fight ever thing. How bad are things while I'm in a tent in the backyard? Listen, it's a whole thing, OK? I will make your listeners suffer through. I'm happily married. We have a great relationship. Yeah, but I've had sleep issues and I sleep better outside with the cold air and the quality of my sleep is like tenfold better sleeping outdoors. And it began with that like we so my wife and I would have this ongoing argument because I like the bedroom cold and she likes it warm.

And it was always in the middle where I'm sleeping on top of the covers and I'm sweating. And she's underneath the all the blankets. She's freezing and we're arguing and nobody's getting along.

And I was like, I'm going outside. And she's like, knock yourself out.

And I have an unbelievable night of sleep. And I was like, well, I'm going to start sleeping outside right now. And she's like, that's fine.

Yeah, I don't think it's so funny. I have a picture of the temperature, the dual zone temperature control in the car and one of my first day to my wife and it's like twenty degrees apart. Right. It's such a common thing. But, you know, my wife and I are both I think we both have codependent tendencies and we love cuddling so that that would never happen.

But you could you could try the chilli pad, which is this thing. You can basically so your side of the bed can be cooler. Yeah. The other side. So nice to start the engine when you're journaling. Are you doing gratefulness or are you figuring out are you planning your day in any way like things you want to do or accomplish? It's usually a combination of morning pages, you know, the artist way, an artist way. So it's morning pages lifted from that program and then a gratitude list typically.

OK, but you're not doing any planning. You're not you're not trying to figure out what you want. I don't know. When are you figuring out what you want to do out of your day? Like, how are you organizing? How are you planning your your your family or work hours or is there no plan.

I huge planner. Mm. I mean in the afternoon I'll organize stuff, but that says to me that you're just one of these guys who's like very like you don't have it. I already know that. Like my whole thing is I can't remember, like I forget things and I'm very absent minded. So unless I put together a plan, which is what I do, I have all these systems in place that help my operating system get through that.

You need guardrails basically. Oh, yeah, I need guardrails.

And moderation is something that I've never, ever I've never been attracted to it.

You and I both. Brother, I know that a balanced person there is. Yeah, but you do it out of passion. I do it out of like it's like a personality like I have been an intense I go hard like you know, I don't party anymore. But when I did party I would go hard. I was having the best night ever when when it comes to work I go hard. Everything I like. Even with diet, I go hard.

Like last night guys came over to watch.

I said about the football situation outside, you know, I ordered everything like, so do you experience shame for having that character disposition?

So that is something that at this point in my life I've come to accept. Is part of who I am, but it's still something in terms of like my my mental and physical health that I want to figure out how to harness in a way that's good for me. And so that's why I'm talking about doing something that's extreme, where I'm going to eat clean for, you know, I'm thinking I'm going to do like a three to four month eat clean as hell.

Nothing processed, maybe like Pescatore and, you know, which are everyday ambassador. And, you know, we already don't eat really much. We don't really do. My wife is so into health and wellness, so we already have a pretty clean situation. But, you know, I know that I need to do something that has a rules to it because the day to day, like like the discipline that is required to really have a moderate approach to life is just something I don't have.

Right. And so I know I don't I used to have it.

If there were if there were some hard and fast rules set up that were easy to follow and that were simple, you could follow them.

Yeah. And you have to be a goal.

Well, that's a good question, man. And by the way, to the same thing I've carried away my whole life about it, only recently have I began to accept it. Yeah, because I would make to do list my entire life and be behind schedule within the first two hours of waking up. I'm like hundreds, if not thousands of times. I've done this and felt. So what was what do you ask me? Do you need a goal?

Does it have to be? Do you have to be driving towards some results or can you just follow, like some kind of protocol for the sake of it, because it's in your best interest?

I don't know, I've not thought about it that way, I mean, I know that one thing that I think about a lot are. Goals and priorities, I think about that a lot like. You know, and so I think one could argue that you could shift the goal to being like one of the goals, that one of the things that I'm trying to re prioritize is how I spend my day. And I'm like what I'm literally doing with my time and am I enjoying life?

And so I guess the answer is no.

I have such a like. My brain like I am, so I have a very business, the opportunistic brain, like I'm always I just always thinking about productivity and I'm thinking about it like my nickname with my friends growing up is the enhancer because I was never just happy with what we had there. I had to you know, if they're all waiting for me to watch a movie together, like I remember one time, I think that's where the enhancer came from, is like we're going to watch something together on Saturday night in college.

And I'm like, whoa. And I ran out the door, went down to the liquor store down the street. I came back with like a bag full of like twenty different sodas and snacks and put blankets on every one of my buddy lost his cool is like fucking enhancing. Right. What do you think that's about?

I mean, is that do you think that so on some level, I suspect it's very bad to tell you that right off the bat. It's very bitter. You find value like you feel like you've got to show up in that way in order to be accepted or approved.

Yeah, I'm sure there's some psychological thing where I'm like where it's like that's my, like, hero complex, right? Where it's like, oh, I'm the one who's going to make everything better. Right. And then everyone's going to want to hang out with me and at my house all the time. Yeah. Probably something I'm sure there's I'm sure there's something about it.

Yeah. It's an interesting thing like. Yeah. How do you, how do you channel and direct like the extreme personality. Like I had this book Atomic Habits by Scott James Clear. It just got recommended to me three or four days ago. I was talking about the power of habit and my buddy brought that one up.

Right. I had him on the podcast. The book is amazing, but he talks a lot about how it comes down to values like being clear on what your values are and then aligning, not being goal oriented, but aligning your actions so that they're consistent with those values. And rather than setting these extreme, you know, creating an extreme situation that you're never going to be able to live up to and then feel bad about like two weeks in when you fall short, it's about these tiny little tweaks that you can make that then you develop momentum around.

Right. So you set yourself up for success by taking tiny bites as opposed to by, you know, like we want to like, say it's got to be like this and it's going to be amazing, you know? And then we're like, we burn out. Right. It's an unsustainable energy source when you channel that extreme nature in 20 different directions at once, like you're not going to, which is me in a nutshell. Right. But at the same time, you know me relating to you very much on that, like, tendency to want to be all in on like any given thing at any given moment.

The idea of taking those little bites just is not appealing. You know, it's like I need like I need it to be crazy in order to get me excited and enthusiastic about it. And I've had to, like, accept myself for that and just try to figure out, like, some kind of workaround to do it, you know what I mean?

Not that I have the answers to it. No, but you'd very much seem like you're on the other end of it. I mean, when I hear you talking about your lifestyle and your life in general, it's very much I I'm there's envy. Like, I, I'm like, oh, I would love to get to that point within whatever my own version of that is.

But there seems there's something very soothing about the way you described your life. Mhm. Yeah. There's a lot of chaos in my head. What are you unhappy about in life right now. I mean, I'm still very ambitious and very driven, and it's difficult for me to just be present and and like gratitude is a practice, like I'm also a long time in recovery. So I have, like, my alcoholic tendencies that flare up the settlements and.

Right. My character defects. You know, it's whack a mole like every single day. Sure. And if I'm not actively participating in my recovery by dint of journaling and gratitude lists and my, you know, service and involvement in the recovery community, I can quickly get derailed. So, you know, then it's like I got to do all this shit just to, like, feel OK during the day. Like, how many hours is this morning routine have to be.

So I could just be in the world, you know.

Yeah. And then I have to come back to just gratitude like it's OK, like everything is OK right now.

Like I don't want to get caught up in being irritable about the fact that, you know, we can't travel right now because it's a pandemic. Like, I can't I have no control over that. But the amount of effort that I have to put into my process in order to be grateful and content and present in my day is quite a bit.

And then not being resentful of all that work that I have to do to feel that way, like when I'm watching your TV show to bring it back to it, you know, my hope was that, like, you're going on these amazing adventures. You return, you edit the show, you put it out, and then it all becomes about how many people are watching it, like is it going to be a success? But truly, the success is dictated by the value of just having the experience, like we're going to go to this place and we're going to meet these people and like, how fucking cool is this?

Right. And I'm going to learn from it. And like, the reception that that will have with the broader public is none of my business. I have thoughts on that.

But just so I understand the point you're making, because you were making a point about your own life, being able to be content with not being not being so concerned with the ends without seeing result oriented.

Yeah. Like we're having this podcast right now. Like how this will be received when it gets published is none of my business. I don't want to get caught up in that. I just want to be able to enjoy the experience of sitting across from you right now. And that's all that this is about.

Well, I think you can I think you can aim for things in life without necessarily ever getting there. And I think, you know what? My show is actually a great example of it, because that came out of, like meetings at CNN.

It was right after Bourdain had passed away. Right. It was set up at CNN, originally set up between either of these weird ad breaks. Yes, exactly. That's exactly right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it happened. So I met with them maybe a few weeks after Bourdain passed away, they were looking to meet with new talent.

And when they said, hey, we wanted to give you a small amount of money to go make a pilot, they've they pretty much said, go do whatever you want.

And the only thing they wanted for sure was that it had that had to have like this international culture stuff that Bourdain Joe had. But. Right. But obviously, I'm not a food guy. And I thought long and hard, like, what is the show for?

Obviously, I'm thinking in terms of what can I possibly offer the world that they would want to watch. But I really started going towards OK. What is something, because I've done so many I've been involved with, you know, I've started companies, I've been involved with so many failed TV shows, I'm at this point life where I know that things are going to get canceled, things are going to go away. We may or may not reach the top of the mountain here.

And I was very fortunate when I got this opportunity to think to myself, OK, what's the version of this show where no matter what happens to it, it will have been one of the best experiences of my life. That was why I decided every episode someone in my life is going to travel with me. Right. Because that's scalable. I would do that forever. Someone that I'm close to, I'm just getting closer to, as opposed to traveling alone and being away from the people closer.

Yeah, no. OK, so that was a that was a good starting point and everything was OK. Like what if somehow every one of these trips was a life changing journey? I think back again, actually it's a trip. I don't talk about the episode of the show. I talk about the trip I took with this person in my life. And it's coming up at dinner just because it affected how I'm living today. Right. So that was what I chased.

And I only knew to chase that, by the way, because of me, the Beatles as like, how can I get that same juice in a show that show Pursuit of Happiness is very much. I mean, doing something specifically because of the thing I'm doing and, you know, trying to solve the problem that you're having in that moment. Yeah, yeah, I mine for you that you are looking for answers.

Actually, I literally picked the episodes based on conversations I was having in therapy, which I also taped to my therapy sessions. At one point I was they were putting those moments in the show, which maybe if I had to do a second season, I will.

But I will say also I mean, it's not entirely like right now that the show has been out for a little over a month now. And I'm very anxious because I want to keep making the show. And so there is a little bit of that still. Like I, I'm like, oh my God, I want to make the show forever. But, you know, I also think what makes the show something I'm proud of is because in earnest it was, you know, something that.

Was authentic to me, and that's the reason to do it, and also that's the reason it works because that comes across and I think it's also interesting.

Same for your show, by the way. I mean, and we're so privileged to be able to do this. Oh, unbelievably so. You know. Unbelievable. Let's check our privilege, right?

Yeah, I think I mean, ninety nine point nine percent of people. Yeah.

Also, I think it found the right home in HBO to, you know, prestige kind of television aside, for it to be on a streaming platform as opposed to cable television. I think in this moment right now is is is good for the show. I think if I get a second season right now, if I get a second season, I think it'll be right. The thing with CNN was I was like definitely going to get a second season.

And there's like a just from a business perspective, there's a brand halo to having a show being talent on CNN. Yeah, but I would I think you're going to raise with HBO, though. Yeah, but that's if I get a second season because I think if I get a second season then I really get to make the show I want to make. Keep in mind I only had four episodes of the first season that show in that season. Look, I'm really proud of it, but I think in retrospect, if I get to make more seasons, I think the first season will look like a B minus compared to like I think season two of this show could be.

Literally, I think three to four times better than what I mean, just because you learn so much right. Any times you do anything for the first time, I have such a stronger sense of creatively what I would do and how I would shoot it and how I'd produce it and where I would go and how I would even have these conversations.

How did you choose the locations?

It was very, you know, very like TV nitty gritty. Like it started with literally like prioritizing the biggest questions. And I'm thinking about in life and very much through combing through like I had one conversation with my therapist specifically to talk about what are the things, what are the best conversations we've had over the past two years, you know, so that was it started with subjects. And then I'd look into subjects. I was just reading a lot of books, OK?

And then it was very TV like where I'm sitting down with our with our team and, you know, they're going off and doing research and finding cool places to explore these questions because of something interesting culturally, some some contrasting way culturally usually fascinating way that they're addressing this question. Sometimes it's because they found a cool person and then you're looking at it on a very practical level of like we don't have a ton of days to shoot these. We have to we can't be flying all over the world like, you know, like when you went to Japan, did you go we have Japan to Korea.

So you stayed and did not go. I went dead. Denmark.

Yeah, we did Mexico first because that was like Mexico. So there's a one time we're able to just fly down there and do that episode come back, which is great. OK, then a few weeks later I went on a long trip, which was Denmark to Japan and then South Korea and South Korea. You know, that theme being work life balance was the Death Cafe.

The hook for that, though, was that what was discovered? Was that the reason that you went there?

I mean, Korea was very much, I think, tacked on because I knew I wanted to do Japan. And so and it turned out, I don't know that there's a better place to have a conversation about obsession with achievement and optimizing every minute. Then, you know, then Korea.

Right. I mean, you could have done that in Tokyo also.

Could have definitely done it in Japan for sure. I agree. Yeah. But yeah, at the Death Cafe was definitely one of the early things are like, OK, that's definitely an I thought that was of course funny enough. I actually already write my eulogy every three to four years as an exercise. Well, to figure out what my goals are. It's like so yeah.

Like explain to people. That scene, by the way, is one of my favorite scenes and this is incredible. And your boy, Matt, I mean, have you met him? I'm surprised you don't know. I know.

You know, he he looks familiar and I'm sure we know some of the same people. He's an impressive dude on the show. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I was like that guy would be with OMEs and all the stuff that he's done. Oh, he is one of the most interesting people. I'm not crazy. Story about what happened to us was like what happened to him physically, like, was it a heart failure?

It was a complete organ like shutdown and we had to fly in this machine that replaced his heart. It all came out of stress, some gastrointestinal issue, and the stress was so significant that it caused complete organ failure. I think four major organs, including the heart, he was literally dead for four.

And he had his heart was connected to a machine that was called an echo machine, which I guess there are only fifteen or something. So when I had to get flown in and it was like this whole like the story is just so Merak and the extended version of his story is one of the most incredible things like like getting through one in a million probabilities over and over again. There was a point where one of our friends who works in the E.R. at the hospital, who was always kind of keeping us in and is a very pragmatic person, was had told us like, it's this to see, you know, it's extremely unlikely that he's going to make it through this.

And we had that moment a few times. And it was it was one of those things where it almost felt like television because like the doctors and nurses were crying when he made it because it was and people everywhere. It's apparently one of the one of the great stories that Malaz told us, young, like a young fit guy, didn't have like comorbidities or anything like that.

Like how he is like he is like he is like the Tim Ferriss. Like Prototyp. Yeah. He does everything. Yeah. He's he's tall.

He's so you bring him in South Korea and you do the Death Cafe thing, you should explain to people what that is. It's like this guy's already done that, like does he need to do this again.

But very emotional for him. Yeah I was. I mean so the Death Cafe is so, so, so South Korea for anyone is listening is, you know, kind of one of the greatest economic comeback stories of the world from like the last 60. Years extremely poor country that became productive, but that kind of downside of it has been a systemic, systemic levels of workaholism leading to depression and suicide at unprecedented rates. And so the country is having to do unique things to get people to work less and also.

Find happiness, so there's these new rules there in the workplace in terms of how much people can work, you know, we went down this bridge that was called the suicide bridge where they have these inspirational messages because it's near their Wall Street where a lot of people commit suicide. And those bridges inspirational messages on it and pictures of food, which is the most fascinating ever. My whole thing with that was I was looking at it and I'm like, doesn't look that high up.

Maybe the bridge doesn't look like it's high up.

Yeah, it is.

The way it looked on on TV, it didn't look like I was like it looks like you could jump and be fine.

Well maybe, maybe I'm sure there's a small percentage of people who just made up or made a bad call. But yeah, the food thing was fascinating because it did make me think, oh yeah, food is like the food that brings them joy.

They're going to not jump. Now, that's so weird. But I think food, I think is more that I think food is nostalgic. It makes them think of their childhood. Yeah. If you think about it, that's our our food and music are very similar in that sense. They're connected to memories. And then one of the weirdest things I think is kind of cause this death cafe, which is just like a cafe you walk, it says Death Cafe on the door.

You walk into a lobby, you know, you pay, they give you these forms where you're supposed to write your eulogy. And then a dude dressed as the Grim Reaper came and got us.

It's a huge complex, too. Yeah. Yeah. How many giant conference rooms are. That was one of the funniest things to me because I'm like, again, I think in such business terms I was like, what's the four wall profit on this rise?

Like rent the square footage is insane. And and so yeah, the studios agree the Grim Reaper came and got us. We had to take pictures for like to put on our caskets. It's like headshots are taken. Then we go to this room where this guy talks to us about, you know, the meaning of death and what the experiences of us, you know, fake dying. Then we're let into the other room where there's it's like caskets, tons of them.

And do you see how many caskets were in that room was crazy.

So they must have like do this for corporations and they bring in, like a lot of people at one time. Must be it must be because there was a lot of caskets. And then, yeah, we we laid in these caskets for like twelve minutes. By the way, I hotbox myself. When I laid in mine, the door closed and I farted. Oh, you did. I'm not kidding. And I wanted to I wanted to talk about it on the show, but people felt it was tasteless.

I don't know why, but yeah, I still came through with the Comic Relief.

I did. But it was actually it was it was wild. I mean, it's actually why I already do to my life, because it really when you when you really visualize being at your own funeral what the people like, who's there, why you care that they're there, what they're saying about you, you. It's it's quite centering. It helps you cut out a lot of the crap that we spend our time thinking matters and matters, of course.

So it was so emotional. How long did you lay in the coffin?

It was like 10 or 15 minutes.

And then you come out, then you have to read your eulogy aloud. Yeah. Or this letter.

Yeah. Match letter. Beautiful matter. Yeah. And I was thinking, you know, he's had this near-death experience already. Maybe he's, you know, kind of like he's used to that he's like connected to those emotions more than most people.

But surely, you know, yeah. It was I mean, heavy, you know, so and that just by coincidence, that trip happened a year to the day of that moment in his life. Oh, wow.

So he had been a year and only been a year and he had spent, you know, 12 months processing that Mahomet, not just dealing with it, but processing it.

So, yeah, you're right. It was top of mind, but it was also was a year of that.

So it was I think he was like. At the peak, like mountain, like moment of it psychologically and emotionally. And, you know, to revisit it that way, it was it was really powerful man, and it actually is very it was also very us, because he and I have, I think, a very beautiful friendship. He's you know, he's like a brother. I'm look, I'm like this with my God. I'm like obsessed with my French, like with my guy friendships that with my male friendships especially.

And Matt and I have just we've experienced so much life together in such an intense way through work, but also through like he and I have done. You know, we've been to Burning Man together. We've done we've done all these incredible trips. And I mean, we've had we used to throw these bus parties back together and play with double decker like we've had. We've gone through all these phases of life and have also been with each other through the toughest moments in life.

So it was very. He's the only friend that I really regularly write love letters to and he writes them back to me. That's sweet.

He started as an actor, too, right? Yeah. He had a little stint as an actor, but then he went to business school and started this amazing company.

Yeah. I mean, I didn't we weren't when when we became friends, he was already kind of on the way out, like from that. But yeah, that was how we became friends, was actually because a mutual friend of ours who was his roommate, he wanted to buy an Audi and his friend emailed me. And I guess Mad still has email. I guess within like 45 minutes he received he received like a five page report from me very passionately trying to dissuade him from buying an Audi A4 or any Gerba.

But then he made a Web series for Funny or Die that he was a cocreator of. And they cast me as one of the leads and I got it. And and, yeah, he and I were honestly just best friends from that moment on. Are you do you have or are you really close to your guy friends, you have a lot of guy friends. I mean, I have some really good friends from college. Not that many of them would.

You are in L.A., though, at Stanford. OK, but he went to Stanford. Oh, he did. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, I'm so much older. I would've not we wouldn't have overlapped. And, you know, you would have overlapped.

You said 54. You said yeah, he's 44 and 43. I don't remember.

You have a really like you've had a really unique path into and throughout the entertainment industry.

Like you started as a you have two investment banker. Yeah. And then kind of like you've always had these hustle's on the side, like you've got this bar company and you started this magazine, you fell into acting almost accidentally.

It feels like.

Yeah, you know what like OK, so that's the investment banking thing happened because I just hadn't spent a minute thinking about my life. Right. OK, so I went to college. I went to Chapel Hill on the because all my friend from high school were going there and I pretty much drank and played basketball like that's all I did. And and I was smart enough to like get B's and tests, you know, and I was a big cheater.

High school and college, huge cheater. In fact, I was like by fair. I was like kind of like a Ferris Bueller type in high school. And, you know, talk about like that was my hero thing. Like I was providing exams and stuff to people. And I always had copies of everything. And we also like the class clown guy like were you the comedian back then?

I wouldn't say I was. We'd have to ask one of my friends. I mean, I'm still my high school guys and I we're all still best friends.

I don't know. I don't know that I would say that I was like a class clown. I was definitely funny, I think. And, you know, I was vocal. I was very social, you know, like I was like my class president every year.

I was very concerned with getting people to like me for sure. And, you know. And I would credit, you know, realizing that to becoming the person I am today, which is like I completely changed my values when I realized that that was kind of vapid and yeah, like that. I wasn't focusing on the people I love the most. And now I've gone, you know, kind of extreme in other direction. But I don't think I was.

So were you. No, definitely not. What were you like in high school? Quiet. Insecure. To myself and what do you think, what complex is one of the best classes ever had? Therapy was that, you know, kind of all your kind of complexes in adulthood and your main aspirations in adulthood, like more often than not, barring trauma, stem from your teen years.

Yeah. So what what would you say would be?

The things from your high school years that you're competing for today, wanting to be accepted, people like people pleasing is a big thing, you know, wanting to be like I was always on the margins are on the outside and the cool kids always seemed inaccessible. And so this podcast is a giant compensation mechanism to show that I can sit across from high school people and be like part of the club, you know?

That's probably there's probably a lot of you nerd, but pretty nasty. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty nasty, studious, studious in high school for sure.

And I was an athlete, obviously. I went to Stanford when I say, well, what sports did you swim? You know, swimming. Yeah. And swimming was like the first drug of choice. And that had nothing to do with school that was outside of school. And that was like my place to hide and escape, but also served me well. Right. So it was all about it was all about that for me in high school. And then I went to Stanford and the swimmers were the cool kids at Stanford.

So that was like a whole different thing to talk about.

A of nerd swimmers or cool people. I know, right? Like good how bad does it have to be? Like the swimmers are cool. It's awesome. The ultimate Frisbee guys at the top. And then and then when you started drinking and then. Yeah. And then drinking entered the picture and then it was like game on. And then it was, you know, insanity for the next 10 to 15 years. And I got sober at 31.

That makes sense because I was in New York City and you know, I lived in New York City and had like an amazing time there and went what you do? And you worked in a law firm. Then I was like, I paid. I was like a play on movie sets for a little bit.

What kind of law were you doing M&A stuff?

No, I was like a paralegal. And then I went to law school after that in New York and upstate New York. And then what did you practice when you were? And then I was a labor and employment lawyer for a couple of years in San Francisco. And then I moved down to L.A. to be an entertainment lawyer. I worked at a big firm in Century City and then kind of did entertainment law on my own, um, entertainment, transactional work.

So I was like working with a lot of like Sundance filmmaker types starving because none of them have any money and couldn't pay their bills. Right.

So it's funny, though, because, you know, the story you just told, it's like all of it makes sense, like like alcoholism, you know, much like, you know, an obsession with work. You know, they're all attempts at power. And I could see in your narrative, it sounded like, OK, here's a guy who's tried to get. Who didn't feel like you had power and is seeking it externally in your narrative that you just told, I don't know that it didn't feel didn't feel accepted her difficulty making friends.

Yeah, I was trying to figure out where I fit in.

Yeah. And so all of a sudden you're chasing your chasing status and money. And that's what I've been chasing, I think. And, you know, not consciously, but subconsciously. I think that is what I was chasing for a very long time. And I only recently have started to figure out ways to deprogram that for myself. It's actually we're we're going to leave. We're going to move out of L.A. or you are.

Yeah, I mean, I'm going to be in like likely we're so we rented a place in Nashville for six weeks starting in December so we can take a road trip east. And then after Nashville, we found this neighborhood like this area. Franklin were kind of everyone's moving. I think it's a Williamson County is incredible schools. But I also am just obsessed with living in like these utopian communities where everyone's on bikes and there's lots of like there's tennis and golf and.

You know, just just fun family stuff happening. So we found like a community like that that were we rented a house in the 60s and then I think we're going to do the same thing in Chapel Hill, Raleigh, maybe Charleston. And, you know, we're basically shopping for a future home. And I think we'll probably move. I feel like we're up in Nashville, is my guess. But also, I mean, it is not unrelated to what we did in the show.

I mean, for seeking simplicity. We're trying to bring our overhead down. I'm trying to get away from the achievement culture, especially for my daughter. I don't want to raise her around so much achievement, which is so intense on and but truthfully, social media is the worst. Unfortunately, the worst of it is on social media. And also because both sets of grandparents live closer to their mom.

So it's actually a full culmination of the first season of my show.

And you can continue to do what you do. It doesn't you don't have to be here anymore and you're established enough. So I also am one of those guys that I don't need to do. Like I get my entertainment career ended tomorrow. I'd be fine. I've never that's that's a maturity. That's progress. Right. Well, I've never like not defining yourself by. Well, that's always where you fall in the pecking order of the entertainment business.

Well, that I've always had in terms of like I've always felt like a Swiss Army knife in terms of creativity and achievement. In fact, I would say if there is a fault that I have, it's maybe an obsession with projecting the image that I can do anything at the last minute or I can do anything, period. Right.

But that's a that's it. That's an ego thing. Maybe.

Yeah, there's there's I you see that a lot in in in in addiction and recovery like this idea. Like I can do it all, like I can, I can still party and still show up and like Excel and all these other areas and you have to really like dismantle the ego around, around your attachment to that notion.

Yeah. You know, I know totally that, that that's all definitely. Definitely there for me.

Yeah. That's interesting.

Well, you know, being close to your your parents, obviously that's an important thing to you. I mean, we didn't even talk about like your parents that much, but like they're so.

There's so endearing on screen, and I know you've talked about this a lot, but they're like superstars like they are, they were smart to make the first episode of the show. Let's go back to the parents and make it about them, because they're just you just you just want to know them more and see more of them. And your dad is one of the most expressive faces I've ever seen. It's incredible.

Yeah, I did. I did Adam Carolla show when I was doing press for me. And he said the funniest thing about my daddy is he said exactly what you said. He goes, you know, like, if I were to do a cartoon of your dad, I would just like, use his face. Yeah.

Yeah.

He's already there. Yeah. Nothing needs to be exaggerated.

Yeah. Well, are you close to your dad's?

Not in the way that you are like. I love my parents. Yeah. I'm really close with my dad right now, but they live in Washington, D.C., which is where I grew up and I don't see them that much. And this is another thing that you talked with Pete Holmes about, like he was he was projecting onto you like his frustration with his lack of closeness with his nuclear family. And I I experienced a little bit of that myself, like almost jealousy, like, oh, you're so there's so much functionality here.

And I'm sure you you have your issues that you explore in the documentary.

But there's like there's there's there's such a strong bond and respect and love. And like when you're with your parents, as much as you're struggling with the ideas that they're presenting you with, you're there for it. Like you're you're you're with them and you're patient and you're listening. And you know that that love is real. Yeah. It's and it's it's uncommon. I think it is.

Yeah. And and whether it's me, the towels or the first episode of this show or I put them in a few things actually in it. Being able to see your parents as characters in a story actually gives you a very. Like a beautiful detachment from the usual dynamic and lens through which you view them, and I would I hope that you or anyone is listening to us would get a chance for anyone that you love or anyone that you want to be closer to, that you have some way to see that person in the full 360 way that I was able to see my parents by.

By having them be stories, characters in a story, I I don't know that I would ever have known really that my parents are so special or I don't know that I would have ever been able to know that. I don't know that it was ever going to see them as as kind of complete humans in the way that I do now. Had it not been for the kind of unique journey that we've been on together through storytelling. Yeah, but you.

But I would. And also so many people come up to me and say what you said. How often do you get that opportunity?

Yeah, I would disagree to the extent that clearly you identify that in them before you even did the documentary.

And really now so that kind of blossom through. We didn't cross us.

I mean, for a lot of people, it's my sister and I did not think about that document. Like we didn't think about it really at all. I mean, I think it's reflected in the filmmaking.

I think, well, there's an expectation to have the easier way would have been like in the documentary, like to try to handle their perspective from a place of judgment as opposed to openness.

Yeah, but I would I would argue that that that is more of a character trait that she and I have. It's very much a result of our parents. And who knew?

They've you know, we knew when we were making that movie that anyone who's. Who's kind enough to let us tell their story through eyes that we were going to show them in the most beautiful light possible and we weren't going to be slightly exploitive, we were going to be honest, but we're going to be tell the story in a way, you know, like the most the most beautiful feeling in life. And I've experienced this, a marriage is when someone you love.

Sees you in the way that you've always wanted to be seen, and I remember feeling that from my wife, where she gave me some compliment of myself and I, and only after I received it did I realize, oh, I've always wanted that complet and. I think we wanted to compliment everyone in the movie in the way that they wanted to be complimented. So that was more of a choice in life and story in that we made.

But there has very little to do with my parents.

But in order to do that, there also has to be a willingness to show the full spectrum, like when you're when your mom, you know, finds out about Audrey, like she has a really hard time with it. And I wouldn't have been surprised if she had said, I don't want to be in the documentary. Like, I don't want I don't want people to see me in this way.

Well, there's more to that. So first of all, that's the whole reason animation exists in the movie, is because we were trying to figure out a way to tell these big moments in the story that we well, I mean, sometimes we didn't we weren't able to capture it. But more often than, like, telling my parents about Audrey is animated. And that's because we ethically were not willing to put a camera in my parents face at this big moment.

Right. So how do we make these moments? It would have felt exploitive anyway. I would have felt it would have exploded.

So animation came out of like, how can we make these fuller instead of feeling surrogate? The reason why my parents were okay with the movie was because they didn't think it was a real thing. I mean, nobody thought it was a real thing that they didn't know what like like they knew like there's like these two idiot kids who, like, we really wish were doctors are bumbling around with this camera crew. We don't know what they're doing and they're making this thing.

And then there's like there's various cuts and everyone in our life, including our parents, when you make a movie for that long, they're thinking this isn't a real thing. It's like that friend who's always saying he's working on his script. Right. It's like that. That's when my parents when we finally showed them the movie, which wasn't until the very end they didn't see it OK, nor did we ever have a confidence to show it to anyone, really to that final woman.

I still remember my sister and I. On the other hand, we had the kitchen door closed in that same place that meeting was filmed in. And they're in the living room. We're listening to them with their ears against the door.

And he left the room so they could have that experience without you being. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. And you hear them laughing and they're making these comments. You hear it.

And it was. Such I mean, what I can't describe the feeling, and it wasn't joy for me at least it was relief because.

Right, man and I don't even know that the relief was about wanting to make my parents happy and not disappoint them. I think the relief was I just spent so fucking long making this movie. I hope it's OK. Yeah. If they said, look, we're not comfortable. Yeah. Then I'm fine.

Oh, God, I can't do this. I got to get out of the apartment.

Given given, you know, the severity of their reaction to you possibly, you know, being involved with a red haired American girl. What was their response when you walked away from investment banking and said, I'm going to be an actor, as you know?

Well, it wasn't that Indian. We were at it. We were at a family. It was it was around the holidays. And we were in a Waffle House in South Carolina on a family trip to somewhere. When I told them that I had been laid off and all I told them was having laid off, the bears have made the plans for the first time in 10 years. So I'm going to go to that game in Chicago and I don't know what I'm doing after that, but I think I'll probably head to Utah for the Winter Olympics and work at a ski resort.

That was kind of I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do with that. So that was scary in the way I think it would be for any parents. You thought your kid was OK and now you realize he's not at all right.

And so, you know, the acting thing, I fell into it like I, I don't know, consciously. I think subconsciously I maybe always wanted to do this kind of stuff. But yeah, I ended up in L.A. because my sister was here. She left her job in finance to pursue writing. And I was staying with her and I was bartending. I was teaching asset classes. And, you know, I got asked to do something and all of a sudden I had a career like a couple of months later it was crazy.

Wow. Yeah.

What do you mean you just had a career all of a sudden? What does that mean?

Like, I never actually remember what order of events things here happened.

And but like my friend had my sister had a friend who is a casting director who asked me to audition for a commercial that I didn't get. But her the woman who owned the casting agency was like, hey, you're really good. You're like, let me help you get an agent that happened. And then also something that happened was my sister was producing the South Asian Arts Festival and the emcee for it, this guy, OSF Mondavi, this guy, he's Alysha, he had to leave at the last second to go like shoot a movie or something.

And they needed like an embassy is like a three or four hour show with like, you know, musicians, comedians, whatever else performing. And so they asked me to fill in kind of as a last minute. I just realized I have nail polish on, by the way.

I notice that, yeah, my daughter, my daughter, and made me put by the way, I was looking at that and I was like, either he's got nail polish on, he's got something really dirty like that.

There's no way for anyone to. Yeah, I just by the way, I've had this nail polish problem. It's probably been two weeks and I've done so many talk shows. I'm doing all this stuff for the election and I never remember, like, I'm going to forget about this again. That's all right. Now, I like it the entire world. I just kind of seem kind of hip, though, right? Would that be the can you guys did you just assume I was hip?

I don't know how that's going to go over in Nashville, though. They're going to think I'm cool, too. There's musicians there. They're going to think I'm all right. They're going to think I'm they're definitely going to know that I'm not Republican. That's going to be a problem for them.

What was I just telling you about being an M.C.? Oh, yes. I filled in and I ended up doing like thirty minutes of improvised standup through the course of this evening and killed I mean, to this day, it's probably one of the best performances I add. And I got like a bunch of calls. And I was I was like, dude, I was a full time actor. Like not long after that I didn't had a headshot.

I don't have a headshot for my first year or so arrogant about it because I was like, I would never want to do it again. I now question psychologically if this was if I was just if I was trying to present myself as someone who didn't want this thing, but. Yeah, I booked like 20 things in my first year is crazy without a headshot, never happened. Oh, and my friends were like Oh hated me. Like they were like I remember one day when I was working at the bar, my friend was like having like a meltdown because she was like frustrated about life and career.

And she and she and she storms and she's like crying and she's like, you know, leaves out of the front door. And then she opens it back up and she points behind and she goes, Meanwell, this motherfucker, my face was on a billboard across the street because I was like I had one of the early things I had booked was I was just a print job to be. There's this new show that Ryan Seacrest had out called On Air with Ryan Seacrest.

And I know you remember they advertised it everywhere on every bus, on every billboard.

And I was just one of the guys going like, oh, my God, that's crazy.

And so over the years, I mean, you've done it. I read you did like seven you've done like 70 commercials. You're on your. Oh, dude. And it's probably more than every TV show. What's that? You've been on like every TV show, at least every bad TV show.

I've not done a million pilots. I've done so many pilots. I've done so many commercials. I mean, I don't do commercials anymore. You know, I would if someone were to give me a lot of money, I will do it. And you're the Wonder Woman movie, right? I mean, yeah, I think it's come out in December. I mean, who knows if that actually happens. Yeah.

I mean, I only recently have really gotten to the point where. You know, I feel like maybe I'm somebody, but like I still talk to my managers more. I'm like, you know, it'd be great if I could just get offered really cool things because even the stuff I do get offered now is not stuff I actually like should do for my career, but the gratification level.

And I'm not I still need money like I need money.

So it's a weird I hate this career, but it's got to be I mean, there's a difference between being an actor and somebody else's movie or TV show or doing a commercial and then having your own show where you're following your curiosity and storytelling in that way, like that's where they're is not even the same thing at all. They're not the same thing.

I think acting as a career is just fucking stupid and I think it's terribly toxic.

And, you know, the only reason to do it is if you know what to expect from it. And I have worked. And in order to know, to expect from it, you have to not be dependent on it, because everything about the pursuit of acting teaches you to be insecure and desperate. And just in terms of the pursuit, the business of it. And I have never been all in on acting because I've always seen that and known that.

And so whether it's the documentary or my entrepreneurial pursuits or even this stuff, all this stuff that I'm doing, you know, and as a producer, as a director, as a host, all of that has been a very deliberate attempt to have a healthy relationship with acting and to not need it at all.

And I'm finally very close to that point, because then when you don't need it and you're able to be picky about it, then it's awesome.

Right? You know, you could be like Bill Murray, who has that voicemail setup, you know, about this?

Yeah, yeah. I was just thinking that you chose to leave a message.

No one no one really knows where he lives, right? Yeah. Oh, I think he's got to at least try to Charleston. Right.

Yeah, right. But difficult to reach, you know, the mystique. Yeah. Which I wouldn't mind. I mean, I really would love to not have a cell phone. I think that would be great. Yeah.

You turn your social media back off.

I think I, I think that's happening at some point. I think. Yeah. I mean I'm not kidding.

I might buy followers or something because I don't know, don't do that well but who cares. It's all stupid. It's all who cares. Well why does it matter. It really doesn't matter. Tell me why it matters.

I, I can tell you right now it's more hurting me than helping me career wise. I don't really have it. The whole thing's a game or what you're saying is to have it and then have but have a low follower count is is more hurtful than not having it at all.

Yeah. Oh 100 percent. Hundred percent. And, and also like who was the social dilemma at all about anything that was great. No. Like tell me what's tell me. Like I would say social media is more akin to acting like the toxicities are not so overwhelming.

Everybody's auditioning all the time now for life.

It's mostly negative. And anyone who's telling you about the beauties of it are being myopic for the preservation of their own lifestyle.

Like that's when I hear people talk about how great acting is.

I'm like, all right, well, you're just saying that to yourself because you don't want to admit that you're insecure and vain like that or whatever, you know, like whatever. Like because I'm not saying those things don't exist. The beauty of the connective tissue and introspection of acting, those things do exist. It's super fucking fun when it's good. And and and there are incredibly they're deeply artistic moments in acting for sure. But the negatives are overwhelming for most people most of the time.

And I think the same is true for social media. But the solution isn't to buy a bunch of followers.

I just I don't know. I just though I just what am I going to do? Build. I'm not going to build my following. I'm not even posting. I'm not on the way. I want to ask you because when I was listening to social media episode, you're clearly on social media a lot. Just by your ability to reference other people's social profiles. Do you have a mindfulness about how you social media, are you passively on social media or do you set aside time everyday to look at it and, you know, want to get out of it?

I mean, it's it's an ongoing battle because you're in a battle with it. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Because on the one hand, I can easily justify the time invested in it because I've built a whole career based on that. Not entirely, but it's a big aspect of trying to amplify what I do. And so there's a there's a kind of a professional need for me to service these accounts. But there's also a highly toxic aspect of it, which is they are addictive.

And I find myself, you know, not mindfully using them, which is not good. Right.

So I don't know anyone who's on social media mindfully. All of us are just picking up the phone in between things on the way.

Yeah, and it's not all it's it's but it's not a binary thing because I've made. A lot of relationships and friendships from the platforms, and I do communicate with my friends there and I'm able to reach out to people and stay stay connected to people and kind of see what they're doing.

Yeah, but that's what I love about it.

I mean, I think I'm probably trying to do that being and being somebody who is addictive by nature. It's you know, it's a powder keg.

Well, I don't think you have to be addictive to be completely fucked me. I think all of us are so addicted to it.

There's use and misuse. Right. And and I do have to, like, try to create boundaries around it. And lately, like, I just use it to like when I have a new podcast episode, I'll go on there and share about that. But I'm not I'm not on Twitter commenting on, you know, what's happening in the world every five minutes, like a lot of people, like, I'm definitely not that guy. That's good for you.

And I just you know, I use it to kind of amplify what I'm doing. And also, it's gratifying to help amplify things that other people are doing that I think are are deserving of a broader spotlight than maybe they're having. And that's one of the cool things about, you know, I don't have the biggest platform, but I've got some people that followed me. And when I can, like, go, hey, check out this. This is really cool.

How can I use of force for good and positivity? But then I'll find myself scrolling, you know, mindlessly thinking, what am I doing? Yeah. This is like certainly not healthy. And while we're all stuck at home in the middle of all of this, it just it just amplifies like the like the negative aspects of of, you know, screentime.

It's so tricky, so. Well, look, one of the things that I want to do is part of this whole brain cleanse or whatever I'm calling it is a technology cleanse. And, you know, I read this book called How to Break Up with Your Phone, which really establishes a lot of the things and the social dilemma. Did it?

Actually, it was really compelling because it basically said that it basically made the point through the book that our relationship with technology is going to be, in retrospect, similar to the way we looked like what cigarettes were to the 70s.

Like we're going to look back and be shocked that we were so permissive with use, you know, anyway. And our target, we should move on to technology.

I'm open to that. Do you want to do together?

Time is are is a is a is our own, you know, as a non-renewable resource. Right.

And we're so liberal with wasting it. And that's insane when you think about it. Another guy you should check out is called Newport, you heard of him, he wrote a book called Digital Minimalism, spent on the podcast before as well. He's written extensively on this subject and has really solid thinking.

Let's follow Kal's advice. You and I go on on a digital cleanse together. OK, now now I imagine both of us will have the goal of it not negatively impacting our productivity, which I think is what will make it interesting. But I would do that with you. Now, I got to tell you right now, here's what's going to happen. We're going to have been buddies, so I hope you're buckled up for that because I'm up for that.

I am a lover and we will this will inevitably bring us closer together. And, you know, it's going to be a ride.

Just don't take me to South Korea and put me in a casket. But this could be an episode, we could be we could end up being an episode together. All right. I like this technology. What do you think? This technology, Clem's idea? Are we going to. Let's talk.

Are we going to are we going to monetize this journey? Good question.

Maybe that's a crass way to say that that feels like like an ethical lapse.

Like I feel like it should be it should be better if you do. You know what I mean? How do we make money off of getting all your technology?

I don't. I have a Council of Indians in my head at all times, but I like getting in the way of the ethical. Yeah. You know what I do want to do what I do want to do for sure.

I was saying Monitise for comical right purposes, but I do think we should do something with it only because I know for me personally it'll motivate me to be a I'm open to it.

We can talk about it, we can talk about it. I think that's a big part of the pursuit of happiness. These these devices are are actively making us unhappy and we're powerless, you know, when it comes to putting them down.

I heard Ashton Kutcher on Arianna Huffington the podcast. You hear that podcast. She's one that's mainly focused on sleep, but it's all about. Yeah, and she didn't interview with him and he said something really interesting. He said, you know, technology is their technology and innovation are there to improve our time, but instead we let it do the opposite.

Yeah. And what's interesting about that is that, you know, he remember when he was the first guy to get a million followers on Twitter and it was like this battle between him and Larry King in the early days of Twitter. Totally.

So he was a king of social, like he was dominating social media 1.0 in the early days.

So he came and he came through the other side through addiction. Yeah. And he doesn't really you know, he doesn't pop up like he doesn't need it. He's not using it. It feels like he's developed a healthy, arm's length, distant relationship with it.

And he's also somebody who who has completely changed his relationship to the entertainment industry and has found his passion in investing and all the stuff that like he's involved in tech as a behind the scenes angel investor.

But all that stuff seems so overwhelming to me because because I thought at some point that I was I mean, I because that's kind of your thing to be doing a lot of things, like I'm on three boards right now and, you know, I'm I'm I have trouble saying no to things, not because I'm nice, but that is part of the thing. Like I mean, culturally, I like I'm always pleasing and trying to do nice things for people, but it mainly comes out of like I'm super curious.

I love I love doing new things. I love people in. I look at him and I see, oh, like when I think of that life, I go, OK, like that's the thing I'm trying to figure out a way to not do. But it's also the direction that I continue to head towards. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, where do you where so let's say you move to Nashville, like where do you see yourself in a in a year or so from now career wise.

What are you doing. I'll tell you. OK, so you know I, I'm doing so many things right now in the entertainment world that are all going great. I think I'm going to I'm looking towards maybe starting everything. I'm such a fucking loser. I so I think I'm going to start a media company.

OK, I'm trying to figure out. I'm I'm telling you, like, I keep telling my wife because she's like she just let me do it. She's like, I'm sick of you working out here. And I'm like, no, but like the whole foundation for this thing, because I'm at this point, I've done so many things so many times. I was like, I actually know what I want out of it, what I want my relationship to be.

I was like, so I'm trying to build it in a way where it won't destroy my life, which is a lie because you can't do anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. And but if I'm looking macro, this is the truth. Part of you are we're going to test drive all these places because one of my great dreams in life is to build the perfect neighborhood with all my favorite people in it. So I want to get to that at some point.

My friends and I have all talked about it, but I actually want to really take active like an off grid compound or just have all your buddies move to one specific location.

I don't I don't know yet. And we've had all those conversations. But really what I want to know is figure out what is going to make what is going to be the best community for me to live in and for me to raise my kids. And and I'm also just from an entrepreneurial standpoint, I think that would be super fun to figure out. I've always wanted to own a resort. I don't know if that's tied into that. And so I'd say that in the media company or to kind of short term things that, you know, the media company is kind of the devil that I'm running towards right now.

But it's it's a social enterprise. Media companies would be there specifically, you know, to help people in the world who need help. I it has a light dusting of omakase.

There is there is a there there's a little bit of amazing baked into it for sure, but it's very creative anyway. Whatever. I want to talk about that because I feel guilty about it. I feel shameful about just how excited about it anyway. So that's a whole other part of it. I'll tell you right now, of all the things I'm saying, that's the one that's probably most likely to happen anyway, right? Yeah. Go right towards shame.

Yeah, I am. Yeah, I like I still like what's the thing that's going to fuck me up the most. What's the thing that I just spent two hours talking about. I don't want to be. I know I went to South Korea, did nothing but like fuck that. I got to get this, like you don't understand.

And then so I think like a neighborhood, a resort. And I also have this dream of being a GM of a of an NFL team.

It's somehow you and Gary V, he wants to do that. He wants to own the Jets.

I mean, think let's be honest, he should yeah, he should get that job. It's not like he's going to do worse. I know you realize all those teams are you know. You know, you know, I definitely don't care. That's a different podcast.

All these teams lose repeatedly for a reason. It's not like any other. It's not it's not unlike any other business. You have nine business people running them. And so these idiots are running billion dollar companies, sports teams that consistently over decades have the same results. Right. We'll talk about that a different time. I want to talk about the different time being. I wanted to I want to we got to wrap this up shortly. But the the neighborhood thing is a cool idea.

And I think what's what's appealing about that is is relevant to your show and the pursuit of happiness in general. Because when you look at the happiest cultures across the world, they're all very, you know, embedded close knit communities. Right. And when you went to when you went to Copenhagen and you're eating lunch with that guy and you're like, why does everyone say Copenhagen is the happiest one of the happiest places? He's like, that's some bullshit story then.

But actually, my buddy Dan Buettner, who did who did the blue zones, where he studied, where people live the longest, he also did the same for trying to determine the happiest places on Earth, Copenhagen being one of them. And they did a whole like they had a very scientific approach to this whole thing. But one of the key factors is community. And I think in America, we really don't have that, certainly not in Los Angeles.

Well, there's been a lot of writing lately of the breakdown of the American community, and it's kind of a confluence of so many of the ailments of modernity, like the first of all, American like individuality and privacy. OK? So that's number one. That's called a cul de sac culture is what Americans in general just we don't the traditional name this has been great about the pandemic actually is it's like it's actually showed me what I think neighborhoods used to be like.

You see people riding around in bikes and all hang out. But yeah, we don't have any dependence on each other the way we used to. Right. So you need to borrow anything. You don't need help with anything. You have apps to take you to the airport or whatever else. Right. We don't hang out in our front yards anymore. They used to be a big thing. So we're increasingly private and independent. And yeah, I think I think also just the way urban culture has evolved is it's not neighborhood.

It's, you know, economies trying to outpace each other at the same time. That makes sense. And so I think that's why you're seeing like in places like the outskirts of you know, there's there's been a lot of literature, I think, in the last year and a half about a mass migration from from what they're calling a cities to be cities. So that's why people are moving in Austin, right across Nashville. Right, exactly. Raleigh, Portland, these places that aren't the biggest cities that have cheaper real estate and also more land.

And so you have these things called lifestyle communities that are building that are that are coming up in these places, which is like people like me who are like, I want that dream neighborhood where everyone is hanging out together with each other to feel like and the bikes are just wherever it's safe for people to lock their doors. I think that's where it's all headed. Right. Do you like your neighborhood? I mean, I live in a beautiful place because this part of L.A. is very much like that.

I live like I live like kind of it's very rural. And so the houses are very far apart. And we have like a nice piece of land and it's like absolutely stunningly gorgeous. But you can't you can't, like, go out the front door and ride your bike down the street to your friend's house.

Well, I think about that with my kids. Like, I miss being part of a greater whole.

It's an interesting trade off, though, because my wife and I've talked about it because. You know, there's it's really one or the other in terms of proximity of the houses, you know, these lifestyle communities, their houses with front porches where your the wall of your of your neighbor's house and everyone's in everyone's business.

Everyone's for the most part. Yeah. And we also if you lived in L.A. or any city for a long time, one of the things you kind of think is like, oh, it'd be great to live somewhere like a huge yard and something resembling a farm nearby that we don't have to necessarily run ourselves, you know, like or like big gardens and all these rural elements. So I'm really interested to learn kind of if there is a nexus between those two different things or if it's one or the other.

Yeah, I think it's I think there's something to that. Like, I just remember, like, I love going back to New York City because I feel like I'm in the flow of life with just people around. And it's so easy to connect with people. And, you know, life almost happens to you where here you have to exert a tremendous amount of effort just to connect with somebody. It's the opposite of New York.

And you go to Copenhagen in the summertime and like everyone's out and riding bikes and at cafes and.

Yeah, you know.

Issues with immigration aside and the problematic nature of that, yeah, it's very appealing and, you know, I just I when I'm in those kind of environments, I'm very attuned to how much I don't have that in my life.

Why are you know that? I mean, this is a good question. You know, I I came here for a job initially. I love the weather. I love the beach. I love the mountains. I like I like the outdoors aspect of it. So the day to day lifestyle of it is is extremely good. It's it's oh it's paradise when it comes to that kind of it is it is paradise. But I'm not as interconnected with my fellow man as I have been in other places that I've lived.

I don't know that it's possible in L.A. I mean, again, I'm I'm speaking from a place of bias. But, you know, I have friends who live in every city, obviously tons of friends who have not lived in other who have lived in other places that have come here. And I don't know of any other city where most people you talk to will tell you that they don't want to live here or that they want to move on. Most people I know are not super impressed with their lives in L.A. And for me like that was that came into play.

When my wife and I were talking about it, I was like, you know, that's probably some sort of a litmus test that, yeah, everyone we know talks about being somewhere else or aspires to some other place. And, you know, what do we want to wait our whole life to keep saying that or do we just want to go? And because we can always come back here, because I agree, all those things you said are huge, like there's not a better place.

Like if you're just talk about the place, there's not a better place to live than Southern California. It's the fucking best. Weather's perfect. You can go skiing and snowboarding. You can actually, I've done it in the same day. It's, you know, surfing and skiing. I mean, you know, and I don't know, it's tricky. And there's so many interesting people here doing such cool. Yeah.

I mean, I think that's a big part of what anchors me here now. I like doing what I do. I like I have access to unbelievable people. Or if I lived in another, you know, a smaller city in a different place, it would be very difficult to be able to get people to sit down across from me unless I'm like sending people airplane tickets all the time.

Yeah. You know, no, I hear you, man. I mean, I think for us, we're really scared of, you know, losing all those things. But then we're also thinking, well, we have so many friends and work here, so we'll probably end up being here a month or two out of every year anyway. And also, like, I think we're both just excited for an adventure. Yeah. And if it ends up just being an adventure, that brings us back to L.A. I don't think it'll have been anything but an amazing thing, which means we chose L.A. After all that, it'll make us love L.A. even more.

Yeah, cool. All right. We got to end this, but I want to end it with you. I want to talk for eight more.

We could do I we can we can to be continued. We can do this.

I could talk to you forever, but I'm also fatigued. Like, I feel like we just went on a run. Do you have to do another podcast today? No. And by the way, I have been doing mediatory. You've been doing a lot. I have you you've been Googling Robbie Battalia. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you got into that. I mean, Pete Holmes was I mean, that was that was a deep that was a battle d.

I love that guy.

Yeah, you're right. The conversation you're gonna have with him is going to be unlike any other conversation you're going to have with anyone else.

Well, this has been an incredible conversation. I really mean that. Good final thoughts.

The pursuit of happiness, the pursuit of happiness. I'm going to ask a question, Maxine, every everybody asks you, which is like in this pursuit of happiness and, you know, going on these adventures, like what is the the main lesson that you've taken away from this that has improved your life?

I have been asked that a lot, and I can I could not tell you what the answers I've given every time is, which is something you're supposed to get good at over the course of many press appearances. I don't I don't want the stock answer. You're not going to. What I'm saying is there are no stock answer. And you're you're going to get a completely new answer, because I'm just thinking about it, as you're saying, the first thing that came to mind when you asked that.

I think the best lesson for making that show was that I just want to keep doing it. I. Love it, I love it. Happiness came in the pursuit. Well, I was going to be cheesy, but I wanted to say, I mean, there's there's such joy and I know that I'm so lucky that I get to somehow do this for work. So if I can keep finding ways to make the pursuit of my own joy and the pursuit of improving my relationships with the people I love, if somehow I can keep making that my work, then.

Talk about the greatest privilege in life. That's probably I mean, it's just so fun trying to figure out. Ways to do better and if you can laugh and smile along the way, I mean, that's I mean, it's just the real juice in life in the same way this conversation has been that like talk about like this is going to fill me up for the day. So fun.

You, me both, man. To be continued, I'd love to have you back any time. This is super fun, so thank you. Well, I told you were about to go super deep, rich and love the pursuit of happiness on HBO.

Max streaming everywhere that you can find. Show me the Rovi show.

And if he suddenly has like a million followers there, then you know that he bought the ad. Show me the Rovi desperately follow. Please, everyone get on board.

Keep me from going to the dark side.

Excellent piece by or if you know where I can find followers to buy, please reach out to me or everybody is listening.

Just go follow him to whatever it is. It's fun. Mansmann, thank you.

So far he's packing some good energy that Ravi, isn't he.

I thought that was awesome. Super grateful for this guy. If you liked what he was about. Be sure to check him out on HBO. Max Pursuit of Happiness is the name of his show again. And of course, if you haven't seen it yet, you gotta watch Meet the Patels. It's just a delight. A great family movie as well. Give Ravi a follow on the Sociales at Show me the Ravi on Instagram and Twitter and visit the Señores on the episode page to peruse the links and the resources on everything that we discussed today.

While you're at it, pick up my new book, Voicing Change Shipping Globally. I'll even sign it. And available only at Rich Roll Dotcom Slash v.C. And if you're looking to dial up your plate, the plant power meal planner, that's where it's at. You guys, thousands of customized plant based recipes at your fingertips with access to nutrition coaches seven days a week, all integrated with grocery delivery and available to you for just a dollar ninety a week.

Visit meals Dautrich Roll Balkam. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the show, subscribe, write and comment on it on Apple podcast, YouTube, Spotify, all the places share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media and you can support us on Patriot Act. Roll dot com slash donate. Today show was produced and engineered by Jason YOLO. The video edition of the show was created by Blake Curtis, graphics by Jessica Miranda, portraits by Ali Rogers sponsor relationships are managed by DKA, David Kahne and theme music as always by Tyler Trapper and Hari, my boys.

Thanks. I love you guys. Appreciate all of you. I don't take your attention for granted and I will see you back here shortly. I don't know when soon. I always show up just on time. Until then, be well. Live large, get outside, express yourself piece by.