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The Rich Roll podcast. Hey, everybody, welcome to another edition of Roll On Goodness is on the way, but first, we're brought to you today by Blankest. It is difficult to carve out time to expand the mind. It's my job. It's still tough, but blankest. An app that gathers the key ideas and insights from over 4000 nonfiction bestsellers and delivers them in 15 minute text and audio explainers has been, I got to say, an incredible tool in helping me make better use of my limited bandwidth.


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You got nothing to lose. All right, let's do the show.


Hey, everybody, welcome or welcome back to another raucous rendition of Roland, wherein, to wit, the duly anointed pod knighted Sir Adam Skolnick and I dissect matters top of mind matters seminal and of great consequence and matters perhaps specious, whimsical and or vapid, depending upon your vantage point.


We also do a wee bit of show and tell and of course, answer your questions from our voicemail Scotchmen.


Right. This call before you. I didn't realize I was feeling, you know, free with the pen. I came up with this.


I like it. Yeah. I didn't realize I was a pod night, but I'd appreciate it if you could do the whole pod cast in that accent.


How about that? I challenge you lots of listeners. You get it right. I do.


You know, I speak to dogs that way now. So as I'm running by if there's a dog of hello mate, how are you?


And the the dog owners love it.


This would fall under the specious aspect of things to be disgusted at. TMI, my friend.


Listener questions. If you want your question answered, leave us a voicemail at forty four two three five four six two six.


So lean back, lean in. Smash that subscribe button as the YouTube kids say. That is what they say right.


Is it. The only YouTube kids I listen I watch are thirty years old Chad and JT.


Yeah well they're like fourteen now. Yes I love it. All right, well let's get into it. I want to kick things off with just a quick announcement. Voicing change is back in stock.


So for those of you who are new here, voicing changes, my latest book, it's a coffee table rendition of the podcast featuring wizened excerpts and poignant essays and glorious photography from some 50 of my favorite guests over the last eight and a half years of doing this thing. We are ready to ship globally, direct your coffee table or your commode, depending upon how you enjoy literature.


I enjoy surgery on my commode. Plenty do. I'm not afraid to say yes.


We have signed copies available, so learn more and snag. Your tome is a rich roll dotcom slash v.c, which is the only place you can get this book.


We're not making it available on Amazon or Barnes and Noble and this is a self published thing. So again, rich roll, dotcom slash VC atom. What's up? I like that you made that choice. Hmm. Well, you know, I get a lot of messages like how come I can't find it on Amazon? So this is why we have circumvented. I can't believe it's texted him like that.


Yeah, it's because of a personal vendetta that I have with Jeff Bezos. No. Yeah, it's Bezos. I'm good man. Life, good life. It hasn't changed.


Still. Yeah. Still mostly at home, though. Well, it has changed. Well, everything is nothing. Instating has changed.


The universe is expanding at it's expanding in front of mind, as is your consciousness.


I'm not so sure about that. Really. Yeah. I don't want to be your consciousness contracting.


It just depends on the night's sleep. Yeah. Like today, I feel like consciousness has expanded. Yes. I didn't sleep so well last night. So it's it's a narrowed. Yeah. The wind.


It's been so crazy windy here. And for some reason the wind keeps me awake at night. It does to me the full moon.


I never sleep well. So we're just past a full moon. I never like the day before a full moon, the full moon evening. And then the following night, every month I have it's a weird like lunar gravitational pull. I don't know what it is, but I have restless nights every time. If anybody out there knows anything about why that might be. Actually, I'm getting Matthew Walker on the podcast.


We have him scheduled sometime in the next couple of weeks. He's the guy who wrote Why We Sleep. He's like the leading sleep expert. That's that's going to be my first question for.


Well, Chinese medicine has, like, considers wind in like well-being considers elements like that. And I think I erratic medicine does as well, if I'm not mistaken. So experts chime in. Right. I think your consciousness is expanded based upon that response just based on my. But how does my consciousness look?


Because that's what's really I think you're looking fabulous today. Good.


Yeah, the weather's been I mean, other than the wind, the weather's been great, I'm enjoying the new studio. I'm excited about all the paths that we've been producing. Do you want to check out your hero going? We had Raghunath, which was great.


It was so fun talking to him. Steven Pressfield, personal hero, Jedediah Jenkins, all stellar.


What a great lineup so far just this year. Cool. Yeah. We've got exciting new people on the horizon. Also been working on some compelling new top secret projects that I'm not ready to discuss quite yet, but that has me getting out of bed pretty pumped up, very excited lately.


Yes, I'm feeling fed feeling grateful.


So, yeah, something must be wrong. How's it going on with the back.


Back is feeling OK? I've been getting some good work on it from my man Lawrence like in who's really been helping me out with my posture and my pelvic placement. All these like things that he's been doing, subtle changes and how I move and run that seems to be helping. So yeah man I feel good.


Nice speaking. Feeling good. We're one week out from the Gorgons, four by four by forty eight challenge. So we got to check in on us in a week on where you're at with that. Physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, consciously.


OK, where should we start. I don't know. You tell me.


Well I'm spiritually dead so let's not go there now. I'm just okay.


Getting folks I feel maybe that maybe that'll be good for getting you through the challenge.


OK, so first of all, Nicolas Ramirez has has come in hot with some great coaching in the last couple of weeks.


He snapped to it after the last podcast. You know, here's the thing about podcasting.


As you may be well aware, you don't always say what you what you want. It doesn't come out right all the time. And then it's like out there and people listen to it. I have a little experience with them. Yes, that's what I'm saying.


Do you experience podcast regret the next day?


Not often, but it certainly has happened. And now we're in such a hair trigger world, right. That, you know, I feel more cautious than I ever felt before. Yeah, not that like I don't know what I would say that would be that controversial.


All I said in relation relationship to Nicholas was that he wasn't really doing a lot of personalized coaching. And mostly I was just getting stuff through the app. But that was OK because, like, I actually liked that. And so that's what I didn't say, because I actually personal coaching feels feels kind of intense for me. And I actually like kind of just doing my own thing, give me a workout to do and then I can make it work and do it.


And so I've actually really enjoyed it and it has helped my fitness overall.


But then once he heard that, yes, he kind of is like Thursday morning, the phone's ringing.


What do you mean you talk and, you know, not so much that he was like he felt bad, which I didn't want him to feel bad. I mean, he's got a million things and and it's it's great just to have the team and bowl workouts. But he has been he's been tailored some stuff. So it's kind of been a combination of stuff you've suggested. He suggested and and David suggested to me so on I guess it was a week ago Sunday or Saturday or Sunday.


I did my first simulation, which was three times every four hours, he suggested, instead of doing a two and two and two or whatever to do three, four or five. So I did that. And that included the five mile at night, which was my first night run, because I never really run at night. I don't know the last time I had run at night where I started out at night. And and so that was great.


That was a good little beginning. And then just Friday I did four, four, three, three. He wanted me to do four four four four. But then David thought it'd be better because he knows my foot situation just to do three threes for threes. But I decided to do a little bit of kind of a mix.


I did four, four, three, three starting at noon, starting at 8:00 in the morning or eight or nine, and then every roughly three to four hours. Right. So I did the last one at night. That's great man. And I thought that's what I feel. I felt really strong, like I felt like my fastest miles were the last run and I wasn't going fast because I'm doing Zone Zonta, but like I felt strong, like I could have done another run.


So I feel like the first day I feel very prepared for the first day, like other than I'll have to grab sleep. But other than that I feel like six fours is is not going to be extremely difficult for me, barring any sort of weird mishap or I step off a curb and hurt myself. So this kicks off Friday, Friday at eight p.m., Friday at 8pm. So this podcast goes up Thursday. So it'll literally go up. People will be consuming this.


Yes. On the eve of the launch.


And I will do some Instagram stories. So David's going to do every every run. He'll be doing something. I'll be watching his and then I'll do something either before or after a run, right? Probably after is probably one. I'll check in, mostly because I want to be connected to him. There are. David, just post about this, there are 500 people who've already signed up through his website from 45 countries, I heard from someone from Iceland through Instagram messaging just now who there's two people in Iceland that are going to do it, but 45 countries, literally.


How many people total?


Just the 500 that we know of because they've message through the app, through the website. But really, you're not supposed to post about that.


You're going to do it. You're supposed to post about that. You've done it. So he wanted people to do it that way. But people have been doing it, you know, ahead of time, which he's embraced. So it's a worldwide movement, really, of people doing this, I think is really cool. It is very cool.


Yeah. It's it's so wild how David has been able to just marshal, you know, this massive following of people to get on board with something challenging and hard like this.


It's amazing. And yeah. And, you know, he was talking about it, the the unifying aspect, how if people just want to focus on getting better and doing something hard for themselves and that it becomes a unifying thing, that with that people from all over the world, different vantage points, viewpoints, backgrounds, whatever political leanings can come together, just shows that we are capable of coming together. Right. Which is cool.


Yeah. This is in the name of really a very challenging thing. So the second day, I have no doubt, will be extremely difficult. I'm not like going in overconfident at all, but I've got I've got some electrolytes now.


I know I was going to ask you if you've been practicing your nutrition and hydration.


I have your sponsor sent me about 150 packages of electrolytes element element. So they're either terrified that I'm going to fall on my face at some point or just want me to try it. So I use that during the sex of the first the first simulation, I didn't hydrate very well. I didn't have it planned out very well. The second one, I had the element stuff which really helped. I hydrated and ate much more mindfully and it was working.


And I have a dozen sweet Japanese sweet potatoes or small ones. Right. That I'm going to cook ahead of time. That's gone. I'm going to have a lot of avocados in the house. So some dates too. Yeah. Get dates and dates. That's great, man. Yeah. No stomach problems.


You know, it's funny what's good about the the Friday simulation. It just so happened I woke up with like a little bit of a weird digestive thing and one of those headaches, it's kind of like I like that those nine kind of almost food poisoning headaches. And I woke up with it and I went running in the first two miles of the first run, I felt it. And then I finally ran through it and then the second run, same thing because I hadn't hydrated enough after the second run, I really made sure I did two electrolyte, 16 ounces, and then that kind of washed it out and I felt great by the end.


So, yeah, I mean, that's why the one of many reasons why doing the simulations are so important, because you're putting yourself in the position that simulates what you're going to feel like in that moment and you're able to test things like hydration, et cetera. The other thing I thought that you said that was great is that you began to run and you didn't feel good and you kept going and that shifted. And I think that's a really important lesson for anybody who's listening, who, you know, is dipping their toe into the endurance world.


There's going to be days and moments and times, whether it's in training or in a race where you're not going to feel good or you're going to start running and you're going to feel terrible and think, well, I don't have it, I need to quit. But if you just stay in it, you realize and you learn that things change and shift. Just because you feel lousy in one particular instance doesn't mean that that's going to persist. Like you can kind of work through that.


And you have these breakthroughs when you do these simulation weekends and you realize, oh, yeah, I got I got through that. I ended up finishing that run feeling better than when I started. And that's very empowering in terms of providing you with the confidence and the experienced, you know, whether something like this.


Well, thank you. That's that's what I felt. I felt like, OK, the headaches, not great, but it's not the worst I've ever had. So I'm going to do it and I'm going to look at it. And we slept horribly the night before. The baby was was really restless. And so I felt like good, you know, like, you know, I felt confident, like this is a good thing to see if I can do it now.


Right. That's how the simulation started and ended, like, a lot better.


So the rough part's going to be those like ones in the middle of the night or in the earth.


It's going to be tough. You know, it's very tough. I'm just going to get through the first night. I'm going to stay up to the midnight run. I'm not going to try to get any sleep until after midnight and then then do the midnight run, then get get a little bit of sleep, get up for the four, get a little more sleep and then try to stay awake all day. Cool.


That's the plan. Well, I've got a ride planned for Saturday, so maybe on Saturday I'll, I'll ride down to your neck of the woods and try to track you down. Hell yeah.


And I'll. A little bit of your phone and do the Instagram thing, that'll be amazing. Yeah, well, speaking of writing, that's really been something that I've been focusing on lately. I've just formed this new ambassador relationship with specialized, specialized bicycles. Yes.


Which is really great. And they've got me kitted out on this new turbo Krio SL and I put gravel tires on that and I've been getting out on and riding on gravel for the first time. I've never I've never been a mountain biker. I've always been a roadie. Right. But there's so much gravel and fire roads around where we live.


So gravel bikes are good for fire roads and grap like those grass, they're not meant for like super technical, you know, sort of mountain biking where you're like jumping over rocks and things like that. You know, the gravel bikes don't have like the shock absorption and that kind of like geometry, but they're great for just riding on dirt and loose gravel and the fire roads basically like the wide fire roads around.


And that's been super fun and kind of a learning curve for me, but it's opened up like a whole new world. So I wrote for my house like I took Dirt Mulholland all the way to and down Mandeville and like into Brentwood and around some your house. Yeah, like a super superfund. And the thing about is that it was it was like a 50 mile ride.


I did like a big loop. That's fantastic. But here's the thing. Here's the thing.


So the Turbo Krio SL is an E bike, right?


It's got a motor in it that we know. Is that the one? So, yeah. So I took that. And what's been cool and interesting and new is the experience of riding in E bike, which is something I have no experience with and never thought in a million years that I would ever have any bike. Like I'm not you know, I'm a fitness junkie. Like, I don't want to motor on my bike. I run a test myself.


Right. Yeah. You got to be some kind of llamo.


Yeah. Like put a motor on your butt. I say, Lamell, I would have never I don't know.


I don't know what the appropriate vernacular is anymore, but but I had two experiences. One, I went up to Santa Barbara a couple of months ago to hang out with Dan Buettner. Yes. And he's got a bunch of E bikes. Yes. He's like, you got to ride. These are super fun. I was like a bike, really? And we took him out and we had a blast, went all over Santa Barbara, up all these climb super fun.


And then I had Brian Fogle on the podcast who people know as the filmmaker behind Icarus.


So he's a sick cyclist, like incredibly fit. He also made the dissident the the Shoghi doc that's out right now.


And he was the one who got me excited about this Turbo Krio. He's like, you've got to get this bike. It's the greatest thing.


Like, I bike. He's like, no, no, no. It's so fun. You end up riding longer, you're riding, you ride more because it's more fun and it allows you to go places you wouldn't ordinarily go, like going up these fire roads that are crazy steep that even if you just had a regular gravel bike, you might not ride up. And and he's he said that he's like increased his riding like, I don't know. Thirty percent from what he used to do because of this bike.


And he's able to go out longer.


So do you use it? So basically effectively basically I keep the motor on like the lower it has like different rungs of power.


So I keep it either turn it off or I keep it on the lowest rung and it just gives you a little bit of kicks. Are you still getting a workout? It's not like you're not riding. But then when you hit some like twenty percent grade on a fire road, you can just cruise up it without wrecking yourself. And so I've been out riding quite a bit and I'm able to get a good workout but not destroy myself. So I'm exhausted all day.


Right. And then wake up the next day and do it again. It's been like really fun. And again, it's something I never would I never would have thought this would be something that I would be do.


Yeah, but I'm really enjoying it. The only thing that I had to do is I had to decouple my bike computer from Strava because I don't want any of these rides. It's like I've got a motor. It's like I can't have these this stuff up. I'm like, you know, Strava where they have segments and all like it, you know, it's not like it's like totally cheating, so, you know, riding and I'm like feeling guilty.


Like when I'm riding by somebody or some riding next to somebody, I'm like, that guy's got a motor.


Like, how lame is that. Right. I'm actually having so much fun with the whole thing.


And I want to just think I want to thank specialized like I'm excited about this relationship and appreciate the gear.


It's a heavy bike though. Yeah, it's very hard. Go up a hill. I don't know about the weight specifically is of it, but yeah it's like twenty six mean it's heavy to lift. Yeah. It's definitely like a very heavy bike.


What's the charge on it. I think you can charge it up in like six hours or something like that.


And also in one of the water bottle water bottle cages you could put a secondary battery. So you have actually have two batteries like a backup battery does the crank and. Generate any so I don't think so now, but the range is pretty good, I mean, you can obviously it depends on on the power mode that you're on and how much pedaling you're doing versus how much the motor is doing the work. But it's got something like an 80 mile range.


OK, so, you know, I've gone out like I did a six hour ride the other day, maybe two weeks ago, and still had plenty of power to go when I when I was done. Cool. So that's super fun.


So I've been doing that and also amping up the strength training, which has been fun. Oh, good.


There's a there's a gym near my house, one of those chain gyms, and they moved all their equipment into a parking garage. And they have like, you know, they take your temperature when you go in, but it's essentially all outdoors and with with masks. And all the equipment is like spaced out over like a very large lot. And I've been hitting that like a couple of times a week. So that's been my thing, a little bit less running.


I haven't been swimming very much. I mean, the pools are tricky to get into right now, but the ocean is cold.


Ocean is cold. Yeah, I was just out the front my friend Drew the other day and he's been out swimming and he just, you know, with a wetsuit, a sleeveless wetsuit. It's like he said something like 55 or 54.


It was 50. It was 55 on Saturday. But then it got really windy again. It was one of our friends. Watches had 51 earlier in the week. I was out that day.


But it's been it's been cold. Yeah. I'm going to wait until it's about maybe fifty nine.


And it's like, I don't know what you want to go.


My blood is thin these days, my friend. Speaking of cold weather and fitness challenges, I do want to shout out my boy, James Lawrence, the Iron Cowboy. For those that don't know, James has been on the podcast a couple of times in the past, most notably for performing one of the greatest feats in endurance history, in my opinion, which is this crazy accomplishment where he did 50 Ironman in 50 states in 50 days, which I just to this day, I just still have a hard time wrapping my head around how literally traveling from state to state and making sure that he completed an Ironman in each of the 50 states, never missed a day.


Got the whole thing done.


Did he like cross state boundaries on the like the run leg so that he could say no?


I think each each Ironman was completed within the boundaries of a particular state. They had an RV and a couple of vehicles. There were you know, I think he started in he started in Hawaii, then he went to Alaska. So obviously planes were involved. And then I think he went to Washington and then Oregon and worked his way down the West Coast and then across the states doing it, doing it by by RV. And then I went to he he's from Utah.


His fiftieth was in his home state, obviously near his hometown. I traveled and ran the final marathon with him. I made a little video about it that's up on YouTube. I can link up to the show now. And he came on the podcast before attacking this challenge. And then I did a second podcast with him at his house after he completed it. And so the reason I'm shouting him out right now is he is doubling down. And today we're recording this on Monday.


Today is the first day of his one hundred challenge where he's going to attempt to do one hundred consecutive Iron Mans in one hundred days. He's not traveling state to state. He's doing it all around his home.


Right. But so that means a lot more hills.


He's got a pool. I mean, it's snowing. It was like twenty seven degrees in Utah yesterday, but there's an outdoor pool that's heated to eighty two degrees. He's sharing everything on Instagram stories. He's got a bunch of kids and a huge crew and lots of support. And they're all kind of chiming in on his Instagram, you know, so you can follow along on his Instagram stories. It's pretty cool. That's awesome. He's an iron cowboy.


James, I think is his account on Instagram. So if you're not already following this guy, you should be. And this is going to be a very interesting drama that's going to unfold over one hundred days. I mean, it's basically a third of a year. It's going to take him to do this crazy thing.


I feel shamed right now, so I know. But, you know, this guy's this guy's bred for this thing. This is a guy who I might butcher the story, but as a demonstration of his his sort of perseverance and ability to suffer when he was a kid, there was some contest in his town. I think he's from Canada originally. There was like the carnival came to town and there was some contest who could ride the Ferris wheel the longest without getting off.


And he I don't know how. I can't remember how long he stayed on it, but he just refused to get off it like he just want. So this is a guy who does not quit.


And we've got to get him to the Huberman lab, so find out, like how good you are, like what's going on in there? He should.


So anyway, I've had some tests back and forth with him. He's in good spirits. And I'm excited to watch this whole thing unfold.


And I was the first person prior to him beginning the 50 50 50 to say, I don't think this is possible.


Like I told it to, I was like, I don't just not because I didn't believe that he wasn't mentally capable or physically capable. But there's so many variables with the travel in between states and logistics and innumerable things that could go wrong and that he couldn't control.


And having done I mean, I tried to do five and ran into all kinds of stuff that made it impossible to get it done in five.


And he did 50 and met tons of obstacles, but was over able to overcome all of them and complete it. And I just think that that's, you know, an unbelievable feat.


And here he is now trying to do one hundred.


So crazy. So kudos, cowboy hat off to the Iron Cowboy and we'll be paying attention and following along.


And speaking of, like persevering, even when you don't think you could like it, you don't feel good. I remember from your book, I believe it was the fourth Ironman where you thought you were toast after the swim. You spent all that time in the shower, or was it that was after the bike.


That was the. Yeah, like after the bike on the fourth one. Yeah. Yeah, I really like that. My baby just decided, OK, I'll just walk for a little bit. But you for sure we're done.


And yet you weren't. And then just this one you did. You actually hammered it.


Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that's, that's, that goes to the point I was making earlier. Like you just have to keep moving, you know, and these things shift and change.


And that fourth one, I mean, a lot of that had to do with sleep deprivation and also heat. And this is an interesting thing about about James. It's like, why is he doing this march? Like, it's 27 degrees.


He could why didn't he start this thing in, like May or later in the year where he doesn't have to deal with snow and subfreezing temperatures?


But he answered this question the other day on Instagram. He's like, I do better in the cold and I don't do I don't do well in heat.


So, yeah, running an ice cold running and cool air is much easier for me.


Yeah, but would you rather there's there's cool and then there's cold. Yes. You know like twenty seven degrees here man.


It's not you know that's in my book I you know get me to Hawaii.


Exactly right. Yes. Yes. Anyway we love you James. Good luck with this. Good luck. Be checking in.


So let's take a quick break and we'll be back. We got a couple of big stories, important stuff to talk about and we'll see you in a few days.


We'll be back in a flash.


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Oh, right, right, right.


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Business completed back to the show. All right, and we're back, we got two stories for the big story, the first one. Adam, why don't you kick it off?


All right.


Well, I just wanted to just talk a little bit about this hate crime spree that's happening to the Asian-American community or Asian community across the United States.


And what started I believe it started first in Oakland, where there was a bunch of older elders just walking the streets and getting pushed over from behind or beat up or just slurs hurled at them.


But a lot of it was violent. Like people were getting pushed over. People were getting in the hospital with getting stitches, breaking bones. This was in Oakland. They caught somebody there. But then in New York City, a lot of stuff was happening as well. Queens and in Manhattan, it just became this replication and then it happened in San Diego. And then, you know, I was saying it's nice around L.A. at least, you know, we've been spared it.


And then Q I believe it was yesterday. I'm looking at the L.A. Times story from the 26th and the Buddhist temple in Little Tokyo, which anybody in the L.A. area, you know, immediately where that is, was vandalized and they tried to burn it down to wooden lantern.


Stands were burned, metallic lanterns were vandalized.


It's at the Higashi home on Buddhist Temple. And I've seen it many, many times. It's a beautiful landmark building. And listen, you know, I just find it appalling, first of all, that old people can't walk the streets without fear for their lives.


And it's it's reprehensible, but it's not something that hasn't happened before. We saw it after 9/11 with Indian American community and people of Arab descent. We you know, we after Trump was elected, a hate crime spree spiked in those communities as well. And now it's landing on the Asian-American community so much that Jeremy Lin, the basketball player, was called the coronavirus on court. Right. You look so crazy.


So does this track to the coronavirus or what is the genesis of it started? Actually, if you look back in, you know, if you really you could connect this more recent kind of rash of cases to right after lockdown, it started to happen right after lockdown as well. So there was like, I think, a viral video of a woman getting called racial slurs on the subway in New York right. When it was really hitting New York City.


So it started then. And now it's just kind of. This new rash of cases has happened, there are leaders in the community, Lisa Ling, CNN, she has she's doing a lot of kind of highlighting these cases on her Instagram. Andrew Yang spoke about it. I mean, it's a major, major epidemic. It's appalling.


And I just wanted to urge people I mean, there's not what is there to say about it? Like, don't be an asshole. Like, what's wrong with people? You know, I don't understand it. And I would suspect that if you drew the Venn diagram between the people who deny the existence of coronavirus and the perpetrators of this type of crime, there's going to be some overlap. So does the coronavirus not exist or is you know, is it is it the fault of of Asian-Americans who are citizens of this country?


I mean, it's it's appalling. It's disgusting. It's disappointing and disheartening that in twenty twenty one we're having to contend with this kind of, you know, racial strife.


It's it's unbelievable. It's hard.


It's hard to fathom. You know, it's like. Look, you know, every day you wake up, you have a choice to make in your life and the choice you're taught from the time you're a little kid, I mean, sure, some children don't get taught not to push people over when they're little. But like, even if you had the worst upbringing ever, if you get to the point where you're 15, 16, 17 and you think it's a good idea to push over an old person kind of trying to make it down the street, I just don't know what to do with you.


And it's like, so there's the hate crime aspect and there's this elder abuse aspect in us all rolled up into one. And that's why it's so horrifying. I think, you know, that's why it's even more horrifying from behind, too. And so, like the cowardliness that's involved here and this, you know, we're better than this, but we're not. So it's like it's like the human being should be better than this. But we're not always and this is our all of our responsibility to fix this problem.


And that that is calling it out, if you see it, defend people who are getting abused. And there was one video in Queens where this guy, like, shouldered through an older woman, pushed her down and nobody did anything. Like he just kept walking down the street.


You know, it's like it's it's. Honestly, like, I don't know what to say, because I can't wrap my head around, like, what would motivate somebody to do that, you know?


You know, it's people that are, you know, angry and disenfranchised and looking for somebody to blame. And they see a helpless person who an easy target and that becomes the locus of their their rage. And it's inexcusable. And we're seeing this in addition to this Asian hate crime spree. We saw it with the black surfers in Southern California recently at El Alberto.


Yeah, same same thing.


A black surfer was hassled and splashed and called racial epithets, and nobody in the lineup came to his defense. And so then there was this paddle out and. Right. I saw that. And that was good. That was well attended. It was hundreds of people, I think came down to support the black community there. And, you know, look, we are a melting pot. We are fed from all sorts of different cultures. Surfing's a perfect example.


Surfing is not a sport that originated in the white community. It only exists because, you know, there was a friendship tour from Hawaii that came and demonstrated up and down the coast of California. And then it became endemic here. But it's look, we we rely on each other.


We need to keep our radar up. And so obviously, your listeners aren't aren't this problem. But I think it's incumbent upon all of us to be ready to respond.


Yeah, well said. I want to move on to other issues that we got to talk about. The next thing is something that caught my eye and I thought was worth spending a few minutes on. I was listening to Marc Maron's podcast, and last week he had two actors from this new independent film called Body Brooker's, yet Melissa Leo and Michael K. Williams.


I listened to both of those and then was so intrigued that I went and watched this movie Body Brokers, and it really struck a nerve with me less for the cinematic aspect of of the film itself and more for the issue that it's addressing.


Essentially, it's a movie about a recovering junkie who was recruited to a rehab only to discover that said rehab really isn't about helping people, but it's actually a cover for a multibillion dollar fraud operation that enlists addicts to recruit other addicts. And this is something that is going on in the treatment industry at large and is an issue that I think is under discussed, under addressed and in need of being dealt with in a large way. And as somebody who's very interested in addiction, somebody who's been in recovery for many, many years and a product of treatment and a treatment center, a very good one, I'm well aware and I'm steeped in kind of the recovery community here in Los Angeles and in particular living sort of near Malibu.


Am also aware that Malibu has become this kind of rehab Riviera where there's just tons of mansions that are now sober.


Living facilities actually make me haves. Yeah, exactly.


And and I knew that on some level this is like a money making real estate play because you can lease these houses that have like 10 bedrooms. Yeah.


And rather than rent them to, you know, a family at X dollars, you can rent out each bedroom for, you know, a crazy multiple on that. Right.


So instead of like maybe two thousand dollars a bedroom, it goes for like twenty thousand dollars a bedroom. And so these things become moneymaking machines and that's why you're seeing a proliferation of them.


So I knew that that was going on and I knew that there's a lot of sort of shady sober living houses and treatment centers. But what I didn't fully understand or appreciate is the extent to which this has escalated into a full blown insurance scam that is generating billions of dollars. So essentially what happened is that when the Affordable Health Care Act was signed in 2008, it required every health care provider to cover substance abuse treatment, which is on its face a good thing.


Right. It's like we're trying to provide access to treatment for people that otherwise wouldn't be able to afford it. But since that bill was passed, nearly 2000 sober Levings, one hundred inpatient treatment centers and 200 detox facilities opened up in Southern California alone. So like 35000 beds that need to be filled every month and almost 500000 that need to be filled every year, which brings a profit of something like 12 billion dollars annually just to Southern California. I think the market cap all told us something like forty two billion dollars in the United States, which is crazy.


And so basically what what happens is.


And what the film illustrates is how these sober living facilities and treatment centers are basically they rely on brokers, they rely on these brokers who go out into the world and find junkies, and then they're able to even if these people don't have insurance, they have like these umbrella policies that they can get their name under so that they can get the insurance money and then they get them in the centers. And then every single aspect of that experience is monetized from the pillows to the sheets to the urine tests, like everything that goes into that gets billed to the insurance company.


And a lot of these not so above the board institutions like crazy overbill like 600 dollars for a pillow or something like that. And the insurance company will say, well, we're not going to pay 600, but we'll pay two hundred and whatever for like a 20 dollar pillow. And these things just start there like money laundering operations. And then it becomes about making sure that those beds are are always filled.


So it's not about getting these people well, it's about keeping them sick.


And, you know, if they relapse, bringing them back in and then cutting the addicts in on on the vig so that the people that are in attendance, in treatment are actually getting paid to go to rehab, they get a kickback.


And then there's something about like the first urine test has to be negative in order for them to build properly. So they want you to get high one last time before you get in. And I saw that in a couple of stories that was in the movie. But also, yeah, Florida. That was documented in California. It's been documented in Florida and California, like South Florida and South Florida. Right.


The sort of most high profile transgression took place a couple of years ago with this guy called Christopher Barth.


That story is it's a crazy, crazy story for people that are not familiar with it. It ended up being adapted into a series on Amazon called Bad Therapist. But basically this guy, Pathum, became director of a of a treatment center in Malibu called Seasons in 2010. He was pushed out after a bunch of heinous sexual abuse charges and he would do drugs with the patients. And I think he owed at one point.


He then opens up this other treatment facility called Walking Miracles in Koreatown in 2011. I actually have a friend, Cliff Brodsky, who was an investor in that in walking pentacles. Yeah. And ultimately, Cliff, who I've known for many, many years, ends up being one of the whistleblowers on this whole thing, which is interesting. And in any event, Walking Miracles goes bankrupt.


That's why Cliff started to come out and kind of tell the world what this guy how this guy was really operating. But then bathroom opens up community recovery in 2012 as this luxury rehab chain, I think it grew to something like 20 clinics across L.A. all the way out to Joshua Tree. He had something like 30 million dollars in revenue in 2015 at a 30 percent profit margin. And when Cliff and others started talking about what this guy was actually doing, the FBI got involved, the LAPD got involved, started investigating him for his sexual relations and his drug use and.


Well, it's all right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.


I mean, this guy was a bad actor across the board.


And then in twenty fifteen, Halaal Aaron, who's also a guy that I've been acquainted with over the years, a journalist here in L.A. wrote a cover story for L.A. Weekly that kind of went into the details of what this guy was actually doing. He wasn't never a therapist. He was like a pool cleaner.


All the stuff that he was up to, the ultimate certification and hypnotherapy. He was a hypnotherapist and he wasn't in recovery himself. He's never been through recovery. He didn't know anything about addiction treatment or anything.


And that highlights one of the problems is that a sober living house is different than an inpatient drug treatment facility. And you don't need to have certification or write.


And the kind of if there's a genius to all of this, what he figured out was that if you combine a detox facility with a sober living facility, you're essentially running a treatment center without calling it a treatment center because treatment centers have to be registered and licensed and all this sort of stuff.


So he was able to operate a, you know, sort of quote unquote, lawfully and then run all this money through this operation to the tune of one hundred and seventy six million dollars before the the House of Cards just completely caved in on him.


And the victims of this insurance fraud are the insurance companies. That's why that's why these things persist, because there's no even though addicts are getting some some are actually coming through these things and somehow getting sober. But but a lot of people are suffering. And there's I think. There were seven I saw two different stats, seven and then 17 people who ended up dying and dying after going through his programs. Yeah. And so, yes, addicts will suffer through this.


But no one believes the suffering of an addict, really, when they're especially at the height of their addiction. It's like they're like not a sympathetic like you don't believe, right?


Yeah. Because their trust has been so eroded. So a couple of things. Yes. The financial victims and all of this are the insurance companies, but the addicts themselves are treated like chattel. Yeah. And there's no regard for their well-being or their recovery. Yes. Some of them do end up recovering, but the vast majority of them just get cycled through the system and are used like cash registers to to do like churn and burn. Right.


And Sjoberg people are hired to. Yeah. And that was one of the things the movie did a good job at, which was Melissa.


Leo plays like the therapist at the at the you know, she seems well-intentioned in that regard.


But when the protagonist of the movie, who's played by Jack Jack Kilmer, does a really fine job with the great job, he's acquainted with my boys trapper and Tyler Jack when he's when he's basically saying, I'm going to leave like he's going to leave against medical advice.


Melissa Leo's character just says, well, you know, I think that's a good idea. But OK. And there's no there's there's no plan for any kind of long term treatment protocol to get him sober. Like he doesn't end up getting a sponsor or going to meetings like there's nothing in place. Right. To make sure that he stays sober because that's not really part of what this is all about.


Right. Right, right. So ultimately, you know, I won't spoil the movie. You can watch. It doesn't end well.


But but will it. But well, I can say it's a dark movie and it ends in the darkness.


And I forget the actress's name who plays his girlfriend. But she was unbelievable at embodying, like, you know, what a young addict is like in that place. As somebody who's known many of those types of B.S., she was good. The other crazy thing is that a lot of these treatment centers end up hiring the addicts and alcoholics that, you know, quote unquote, graduate from these facility. So you're you're literally letting addicts run the insane asylum.


And if addicts are anything, they're incredibly crafty and diligent and persistent at getting what they want. And so if you have any of them that are at all criminally inclined, like this is going to go off the rails, which is exactly what happens in them.


Well, that's what's so interesting about not interesting, but what makes this whole story so crazy is that. Basically, the mentality of the scheme that that that perpetuates this fraud and is the same mentality, it's a drug dealer mentality, and anybody who's ever required the services of a drug dealer knows that drug dealers cannot be trusted. And yet some of these people who are building it literally have a dealer mentality when it comes to getting people in treatment, getting them out, not giving a shit what happens, just selling and making the money.


And then these addicts are kind of acolytes of the drug dealer. I mean, don't you think there's a parallel there?


Yeah, they they become indoctrinated into this system and essentially many of them are, you know, relatively unemployable or felons or they've never had a real job.


And they get a taste of like, hey, we'll just do this. And it's like low hanging fruit. And suddenly they're in this system, which is, you know, another aspect of the film's narrative that I think is really potent.


And I think on top of that, it's. Well, first of all, to kind of wrap the story about bathroom, I mean, he he ultimately gets indicted on 50 counts of fraud, grand theft, money laundering, sexual assault, rape.


He's sentenced to I think he was 20 years those 15 years, 20 years just for the fraud and then 30 years for the serial sexual assault. Right. Because he he was convicted of seven women. So 52 years. He's in prison now.


Yeah, but this is sort of the tip of the iceberg, like this is still going on. And that's what's disheartening. And to your point earlier, there are addicts that are coming out of these experiences in these recovery houses and telling people like, look, this is what's going on, but nobody's believing. Right? Right. They're like, yeah, whatever. Like, you're not a trustworthy source.


And I think those women that allows this kind of thing to to continue to perpetuate. So I'm really glad that this movie exists because it's shining a spotlight on this.


And, you know, like I said at the outset of this, like, I care deeply about recovery and it's so disheartening that it's been hijacked and abused to such an extent. You know, I had a life changing treatment experience. There are good treatment centers out there. There are good people, well-intentioned people who are providing really good care to.


But that was out there. Now, you paid for that, right?


Yeah, I did. I did. And and but I'm saying that still exists now. Yeah. But I think anybody who's kind of looking at this needs to be more cautious than you used to have to be about what you're getting involved in.


So maybe you can explain, because one of the closing kind of thoughts in this movie is it's not about like basically going to the bells and whistles kind of real world house version of a rehab center. And it's more about 12 step is free and 12 Step has this incredible track record. So maybe you can explain the difference between those two and why 12 step for you, do you think is still kind of the undisputed champ in terms of its effectiveness and what it does?


Well, 12 step is very effective, like it works if you work it, not everybody works it and not everybody gets sober. And when you've been in recovery for any extended period of time, you end up going to a lot of funerals and you see a lot of people go out and not come back. So it's heartbreaking. As much as it is life affirming. You know, it's it's it's real life. And sobriety is hard and it's slow and it's not linear.


And, you know, 12 step is not perfect in that regard.


You know, if you look at the statistics, the truth of the matter is most people who try to get sober don't achieve long term sobriety. They just don't, you know, and and and that's just a fact.


But 12 step is free. It's open to all comers. It's decentralized. There's no money laundering going on. There's no boss, nobody's in control. And that sets it apart from the treatment, the sort of corporate conglomerate treatment, you know, infrastructure, which is about making money. And when there's so much profit to be had, you're sowing the seeds for ultimately corruption to exist.


I think, you know, my experience was about indoctrination into the 12 steps, and that was a part and parcel of my treatment experience was, you know, learning what that was all about and then creating a long term care plan for when I got out so that I could maintain what I had, you know, the process that I had begun during that 100 day stay. It's not about, you know, massage and reiki and, you know, going four wheeling and, you know, like like some of these are like luxury spa experiences and like, I'm not against self care, but don't be confused.


That's not treatment. Treatment is rolling up your sleeves. And look, there's a therapy in the movie. You see there's a therapist that's great. But also that should also be understood to sit outside of and be considered distinct from actually the process of like working the 12 steps and working with a sponsor and helping newcomers and the like.


One of the horrible outtakes of the bathroom story was he would rape or sexually otherwise sexually assault women and then they'd end up in a survivors kind of support group within the sober living house. And he was running it.


Unbelievable. Yeah. So that's how bad it was. But so what you're saying is. Going to a safe space helped kind of removing yourself from the real world as it existed because it was so twisted for you and you were kind of twisted up in it, helped to to put you in a place where you could receive some of this information. And then linking it to a 12 step program was like the bridge you needed to be able to work it in.


Yeah, I mean, there was something very valuable for me to be able to opt out of my life and go someplace and focus entirely on getting well, you know, but it was not a luxury experience like in the movie. He just kind of waltzes in and they give him a bad like when I when I walked in, they strip search you. They go through your luggage, make sure because, you know, people are trying to sneak stuff in there, not that kind.


Like, they threw me in a room and basically wouldn't talk to me for two days until I, like, dried out. And it was pretty intense and hardcore. There was not a lot of coddling. We weren't going out on, you know, field trips or anything like that. Like, it was really structured and it was more like a mental institution. And, you know, it was a it was a great facility.


But but it was kind of like being in a hospital ward or a dorm. It wasn't like being in a in a mansion with an ocean view. And I could tell you that.


Yeah. And then the idea that, like, that's what's so heartbreaking about the story is that they are advertising safe spaces to try to get well. And then it's anything but a safe. Actually, you're the prey. You know, it's it's like. It's like. It's twisted. I didn't even know anything about this, so I hope that there I hope that this movie will prompt more conversations like this and greater oversight, because a lot of this stems from the fact that there is very little oversight when it comes to sober living houses and detox facilities and there's just too much money to be made.


So we need regulatory oversight over how these insurance funds are dispensed to make sure that people who are in need of treatment can still end. Detox can still access that. I mean, I think sober living facilities, when done right, are incredibly beneficial.


Like the idea is you detox, then you have inpatient and then you have outpatient. And for a lot of people, they need a transition to real life. And the sober living house provides that soft landing so they can live with other recovering addicts and alcoholics while they go out into the world and try to get jobs.


But they're still accountable and are still certain rules.


So to the extent that we can craft and create some regulatory, you know, oversight over how how these things are are conducted to make sure that people are safe and that they're fulfilling their intention is what I think we all want.


Yeah, I mean, I think from what I read, that was the reason that there's so little regulation around sober living houses, at least at the time, was because they didn't want to be a lot of red tape, because the more red tape, the less the more likely that someone in the neighborhood to find out there was a sober living house now in their neighborhood. Yeah, it's like they're not in my backyard. It would be a NIMBY.


And so it was there was there are good intentions that created this situation like Obamacare, trying to get mental health and drug addiction recovery. Right. Mandatory for these insurers. That's a great intention, right?


I can't be considered a pre-existing condition. Right.


And then sober living houses. The intention was to make it discreet so that they could there could exist.


Right. But the tragic thing is that you have addicts who cycle through this become not only do they not get well, they become calcified around recovery because their experience was so bad and they realize like what's really going on there and they become hardened to the process of recovery at all.


And then lives are lost. Lots of lives are lost.


Well, thanks for bringing it to my attention. I can't believe I missed this entire story over the last several years. It's crazy, right?


All right, let's move on. What do we got? We're going to do a little show and tell now.


Yeah, show and tell. All right. Show and tell. Well, do you want to start with the new pod, the newest podcast on the block?


Yeah, he's like kind of he's he's kind of a you know, he's this small timer in the game.


Yeah. You might have heard of him, though, the boss and Obama getting together on Spotify.


So, listen, Barack, I know you were president for two terms and you're dashing and handsome and the like, but I don't know what makes you think you can host a podcast.


This is a skill, my friend.


It takes years and you might have a degree in hypnotherapy, but you're not a podcast at all. So I actually have tried to get this job.


I haven't listen to this podcast yet, but this was big news. Spotify made a big splash with this Bruce Springsteen Barack Obama podcast episode.


Is it intended as just one episode or is Obama going to now, like, interview people like what's going on if renegades?


Is this Chingo where they're going to just pair two people together and it'll be something organized?


Connock last year that show iconoclasts? Yeah, I have. See where they get like they had Eddie Vedder and Laird Hamilton spend the day together. Right. Right, right.


Or is this renegades? Does it belong? Is is Barack Obama going to just interview other people? It's hard to know. I listen to the first episode on the way here. And I mean, Barack Obama is very good.


I'm sorry he's such a good interviewer. But, you know, on Barack, I was struck by two things. One is Barack Obama is a great podcast's and he is the host. He's interviewing Bruce. And it unfolds over the course of like, I don't know how many episodes, maybe a half a dozen. And the first one is about being outsiders growing up as an outsider. And, you know, it's not like Bruce Springsteen hasn't told his life story before.




He's told it over the course of many record albums I did. I went to the river tour where you just talked about like you just performed that album and talked about his life. He did a Broadway show and now he's in this. But every time he talks about his life story does feel fresh. I mean, he is very gifted in that category. And the two, it is great to hear them together. And and I found myself suspending all those kinds of thoughts about what this means for podcasting and just kind of enjoying these two people.


But so it's good it's good content. You know, Spotify is like if you couple this with what Joe Rogan's deal was with the Bill Simon. Springer deal. Yeah, it's incredible what they're doing, they've really stepped up. Yeah, I mean, they have made big plays to try to own this corner of the Internet. And and they're putting great stuff out there. So hands off to them. It's an interesting move on behalf of Spotify.


They're recognizing that owning a significant part of podcasting market share is in their interest for a number of reasons, not the least of which is when you look at how these tech platforms grow and become de rigueur.


It's about it's about monopolizing your time. Right. Like the idea, the sort of parameter is how long can we keep you on our platform? Right. And when Spotify has listeners listening to music, they have to pay royalties out to the record labels. But when they have a podcast on it, that podcast is, too. If they're listening to Joe Rogan for three hours, they're on Spotify for three hours listening to ads, but they don't have to pay.


I mean, they paid Joe up front, but they don't have to pay royalties out. So it's in their interest to move towards podcasting and away from music as a way of capturing people's attention. And they've got this crazy war chest that they can marshal to get people like Bruce Springsteen and Barack Obama on their platform.


Are they profitable yet? I don't know what the numbers are, but, you know, they're running it like a Hollywood studio. Don Ostroff is running, you know, podcasting for for Spotify. And she's been magnificent at recruiting top talent and developing. You know what?


They're you know, it's basically like Netflix for podcasting. Right. So crazy good on them.


And did you had some other insights into this? You know, you're reading something right before we went on.


How does this help or hurt kind of podcasting going forward?


What was your takeaway on that? Yeah, it's interesting. There's a there's a New York Times article today by a guy called Ben Caesarea. The title of the piece called Podcasting is Booming. Will Hollywood Help or Hurt Its Future? I have, you know, a variety of thoughts on this. I mean, first of all. There's a conversation to be had that I'm not that interested in, which is if if if a podcast is on Spotify, is it even a podcast because it's firewalled there?


It's not an RSS feed. Podcasting, technically, is when you can disperse an audio file and make it publicly available across the Internet. I don't think that that's an important distinction. I think we're moving towards this subscription future where everybody is going to be putting their stuff, you know, like whether it's substory and newsletters, like everybody is segmenting content behind a variety of subscription paywalls right now. So it seems like this is just the natural evolution of things.


You know, podcasting. You know, I wasn't the first to start a podcast, but I've been in it longer than most now, eight and a half years almost, and it's changed dramatically. It used to be a hobbyist sort of pursuit, you know, and something that a lot of comedians were doing.


Yeah. But now it's being monetized significantly across the board with the bigger shows.


And with that influx of money, you're going to see the corporatization of it and the growth of things like Spotify.


So it's not surprising. You know, I still believe I wouldn't say it's a meritocracy. I think if you're starting a podcast right now, it's very difficult to get audience share because there's so much content out there and not just in podcasting, but across the board. So if you're just looking at trying to grab attention, share in the attention economy when there's Netflix and Hulu and, you know, all the streaming platforms and then, you know, everything that's going on with audio right now, including all the apps that are available, what are you creating that's going to be compelling enough to draw people away from whatever it is that they're paying attention to and pay attention to your thing?


I think it's incredibly difficult right now, and we've benefited from being early on and getting a little bit of, you know, a land grab that we've been able to hang onto. Yeah, God forbid we tried to start this thing. Now, I think it would have been incredibly difficult, but I do believe that being said that.


You know, quality rises to the top over the long haul, right, so it can it can it doesn't always work that way. Right.


But if you're good and it's not about getting millions of people to listen to it, it's like, who are your hundred true fans or the thousand people that are interested in what you're doing? And podcasting is still there's no barrier to entry. Anybody can do it. And if you pick a particular niche that you find compelling, there are other people out in the world that probably will agree with that.


Well, you can one thing that helped you is you had three kind of three pronged niche. You were kind of like you have the sobriety of the plant base and you have the endurance power. And putting those three things together was kind of a calling card for you early on, right? I guess.


I mean, I never really thought of it that way. I mean, that's probably true, but I just followed my curiosity. Yeah. You know, and now if you were just going to start a podcast and to say I'm going to talk to interesting people, like good luck, you know, even movie stars, I've tried to do that and failed people who already have big following. So it's not easy. And just because you have name recognition doesn't mean you're actually good at this thing.


It's a skill, even though Obama, you know, is knocking out the park with his first go.


Yeah, great first test. I think, you know, like if I go back and listen to my early podcasts, I'm sure I'd cringe.


I would never do that. But, you know, it's like you you grow and change with it.


But I think with this influx of money, you're going to see higher production quality, higher production value, and you're getting these scripted series. We see a lot of the true crime stuff. Right. And and now these new narrative storytelling, which is old radio, it's old time radio coming back, packaged with movie stars and big picture budgets. And the idea is that this becomes i.p that you can develop into mini series, TV shows, movies and the like.


Like We Crash the Wonderings series is being developed as a movie right now. Like there's a lot of that is going on right now. So there is a there is a a lot of attention being paid to this.


Yeah. But at the same time, like, the way that I look at it is I'm just going to keep doing my thing. I'll try to get better at it. And I believe that long form, interesting conversations with compelling people is never going to go out of style.


You know, I think it's interesting the kind of family rivalry that's budding between Michelle and Barack. Michelle's book Kills It Never Comes Out. His book, Kill That. She has a great Spotify podcast that's doing great. He comes out with Bruce Springsteen like six part series.


They're feeling each other. It's funny. It's it's great. I wonder what those conversations are like at home. I'm sure they're very supportive of each other.


There's definitely some like poking, though, like. Oh, yeah.


How many books you saw that we're going to have to get the real story of from Sasha and Malia at some stage.


But I will say, like as part of this New York Times article, this idea that, you know, as podcasting becomes big business, there's unease that the diversity of voices in our earbuds, never a strong suit of the industry, could be put at risk to. That may be true. But like, what are we supposed to do about it? Like, are we supposed to put protective measures to what? I don't know.


That's what I'm at to make sure you have the right amount of percentage people that are have the knowledge. Right. Which brings up the the broader discussion about, you know, content, moderation and podcasting, which I don't know how you could possibly do that.


I think you have to just let like he said, I think, you know, anybody can get into it. Anybody can buy a couple of sure microphones and get into it. You know, you could do it on your iPhone and upload with anchor. You don't even need. Sure. Microphones. Sure. Microphones are nice, though. There's no they're not cheap.


No, but they're where they 500 bucks or something like that. Yeah. I mean just go and tick tock and start dancing.


You'll build a huge following and you can, you can just create a podcast out of that.


There you go. All right man. What do we got next.


OK, I saw a movie this week called Diving Deep The Life and Times of Mike Degree. Mike Degree. I mean, it was made by his wife, Mimi. Mike died tragically. I don't want to spoil it, but he was an incredible underwater cinematographer and nature host. And you may never have heard of him, but he is he was also a submarine pilot, a technical diver. He you have seen his footage. If you've seen Blue Planet, you've seen Mike's work.


If you saw the Titanic documentary that James Cameron produced about finding the real Titanic, he was the DP on that. If you've seen the footage of the orcas playing with the sea lions on the beach hunting them, he was the first guy to shoot that. So he's he is a giant in that space.


He's on the level of kind of in the Jacques Cousteau Sylvia Earle category in terms of an incredible all around science, you know, scientific. Mind and cinematographer and kind of blurring those lines, I mean, he is one of the truly great people in that space and I didn't even know his story until I watched this movie. And it became, I think made me started to look at footage from his years in the editing room nine months after he passed away.


And started to put together this movie, this is a great snapshot of who Mike was, where he grew up, how he got into it, a shark attack that he survived, his becoming a submarine pilot, his going to the Gulf of Mexico after Deepwater Horizon. That disaster happened and how he got so angry when the dispersants were dropped to sink all that oil and what dispersants do post oil spill to the ecosystem and in general, and how that kind of angered him and mobilized him.


And she interviews a lot of luminaries from that space, including James Cameron. Several times. I've never seen James Cameron, who you all know, Avatar, Titanic director. I've never seen him so disarmed in an interview. Usually he's pretty kind of uptight and reserved and he is just like really wide open in this interview. And there are reasons for that. And you'll see why. But but, you know, you credit me me for that. And just to just just to respect these watermen that people don't hear about and and how much he cared about sharks and how much he cared about the marine ecosystem and how curious he was and how excellent he was at all these, you know, to become a great underwater cinematographer is one thing.


To become a great technical diver is another thing to become a submarine pilot. It's another thing to do all of that while raising a family and do it all in one lifetime is absolutely it's unfathomable to me. It's incredible.


Right? Well, I have to check it out. I haven't watched it yet, but super interested in that.


You die from the diving deep. We'll put a link in the show.


Notes about the life and times of my degree, degree, degree, like he's in Alabama. His wife Mimi is the one who directed the movie.


Yeah, she made it. Yeah. Cool.


Yeah. So technically this is show and tell. Yes. So I thought I don't have any big specific show and tell thing, but I did want to say that I get like so many books in the mail. Right. And often I get multiple copies of the same.


But really because they don't know that they sent it to me or maybe the author sends it to me and then the publisher sends it to me. And generally these are, you know, books from for podcast guess or potential podcast guess.


And I've had a habit of either donating them to libraries or to goodwill, but I thought I would do a giveaway.


So I just I just grabbed a couple that were in my office. Right now I've got I have multiple copies of Adam Grant's thing. Again, I've got a second copy of Judge Jenkins like Streams of the Ocean. I got two copies of this amazing book that I'm just starting called Exercised by Daniel Lieberman, who's a Harvard professor. He was one of the pioneers of the barefoot running movement.


Oh, really? Part of Born to Run. And I'm trying to get him on the podcast. Guys got amazing stories and he's super cool.


There's a petroglyph on the cover. There is, yeah. It's all about like human ancestry and movements. And is that a petroglyph treadmill?


Yeah, it is. I think. Wow, we were so it's a peloton from the ancient Greek peloton.


The point is, Adam, stay on track here. I'm sorry. I got a bunch of books that I want to give away.


So and plus I brought out a sketch that Brian Ohara did for me on YouTube.


You can see this. So, Brian, my artist friend Brian, who I've spoken about on the podcast before, he's the one who created our logo and he's got a bunch of artwork here in the new studio. He has a very interesting lens on the world. He he sees words backwards.


He's not dyslexic, but he has a different relationship to the written word is like visual cortex than most people. So he he his art is in this kind of reverse hieroglyph style.


Interesting. That makes it almost look like Arabic or something like that.


And he he kind of encrypts his artwork with positive messaging. And this is just a piece that he like did really quick and ripped it out of his sketchbook and gave it to me. I've got a bunch of these, so I thought it'd be cool to give this away on the podcast. I'm not even sure what this says. I said give it away. I think this says Peace and Plants doesn't read this.


Well, there's definitely peace, yeah, peace. Yeah, I think it says peace and plans. And as you can see, for people who are just listening, it's just torn out of a spiral notebook. It's amazing. It's not framed or anything like that. But I believe in Brian's talent. And I think one day he's going to be a massive success as an artist.


So this could be a valuable thing to hang on to. So how do I do this? I don't know.


I mean, maybe just subscribe to the YouTube channel and leave a comment below the video with why you think that you should get this book or this piece of art and we'll pick somebody.


Perfect. How about that? I love it. Cool. So that's my big show and tell for today. Good show and tell. All right. You want to talk about Lawrence Ferlinghetti, right?


I do want to talk about Lawrence Ferlinghetti. And this is kind of a teachable moment and maybe a hat tip to a legendary man in publishing and in poetry.


He died. You may have heard or or read at 101 years old recently, I guess it was February 23, the obituary.


So either that or the night before Lawrence Ferlinghetti started a bookstore in 1953 called City Lights in San Francisco.


It's in North Beach, kind of in the transition zone between Chinatown and North Beach.


Dwight Garner, the literary critic of The New York Times, called it almost certainly the best bookstore in the United States. For me, it is, you know, like it was it's kind of a historic landmark, a landmark totally taken of a of a time.


Yes. A holy temple of madmen and and people who are looking for truth in this world.


And basically, he started the bookstore within a couple of years and it was just all paperbacks at a time when paperbacks weren't really being sold too much. So he started this paperback bookstore.


And because of that, it was like he things were cheap and he acquired a bunch of people were coming to San Francisco and they they showed up at his doorstep and a lot of them were poets. And within a couple of years, he launched a press to start publishing these people. One of them was Allen Ginsberg.


And his story turns in the story of Beat the Beat literary movement turns when he publishes Howl, which I'm holding it up here.


It's a Ferlinghetti publishes how he Ferlinghetti City Lights has a has like a banner. That's right.


And and he published it in I think it was fifty nine fifty seven fifty six publishers in 1956.


It's the first thing he publishes Allen Ginsberg's Howl because he performed it in City Lights and fifty six page book. That became a sensation and partly because everyone heard about it, they came in to buy it and the police, San Francisco police had an undercover cop come in and I guess he was under 18 or had someone.


They were following someone and they sold the book seller, sold it to someone under 18 and it's sexually explicit and it talks about homosexuality and all sorts of things in this 56 pages, especially the poem Howl, which is, as you know, one of the great poems, because what it did was it broke verse from something stodgy, like poems of the of the old age and became much more, you know, stream of consciousness style.


And anyway, the bookseller was arrested. Ferlinghetti, the publisher of the book, was arrested and the owner of the store was arrested. And it became a landmark First Amendment case where basically it was tried. Can you you know, is this obscene literature? Can you know or or is it not? And is it protected by the First Amendment? And it turned out it was they had a good lawyer. Was counselor the lawyer on that forget?


You know, there's a James Franco movie that that.


Yeah, I saw that time go. Yeah. Something tells me one counselor was the was the lawyer I could see they got they got like a heavyweight lawyer that came in and argued it.


Even though Hustler's the guy with the law, he did Chicago survive. OK, you know. Yeah. Yeah. So as a municipal case. But it had national implications. And luckily there was a federal court case that they use as a precedent. And this kind of reinforced that precedent that if there is social value, it can't be considered obscene. And so that's what the argument was, that everyone was innocent of charges. And this poem became a sensation and basically fueled this movement, which included Jack Kerouac, Gary Snyder, you know, Jack Kerouac on the road and all of those, Gary Snyder, Neal Cassady and Ferlinghetti himself, who published Coney Island of the Mind, which is one of the most successful poetry books in history, one million copies in print.


And so, you know, the legend was built right around that era. And what I think is one of the things he used to say is when life gets too awful, look for the lyric escape. That's something Ferlinghetti says. And that can be writing and could be painting. It can be sex, you know, making love. It could be running, swimming, diving, reach for a peace of mind. That's the lyric escape. And to me.


Sitilides was a lyric escape every time I entered that building, and so, you know, they gave us great literature, but they also kind of bridged they were open to Zen Buddhism. They were open to kind of an expansion of the mind. It wasn't just about reading a great book. It was a reading a great book that that allowed you to look for that expansion of your own self. It kind of was a precursor to a lot of the yoga stuff that kind of came right in the 60s and the yoga movement and and the personal development movement.


So it's one of those really pivotal literary movement movements in our culture. And Ferlinghetti was a foundation.


Right. And we're I don't know that we mention this, but we're bringing it up because he just passed away. Yeah. You know, I did mention. Oh, you did? He passed away two and one years old. Right.


I mean, sitilides the vortex of the counterculture movement of the 60s.


It burst the beat poet generation, Neal Cassady, all of that.


And, you know, if you haven't visited City, I mean, still there.


If you haven't, it closed down. Did pandemic. Oh, it did. Just closed down. And then and then it raised a bunch of money through one of those go fund me. And so now it has four hundred thousand dollars to hopefully reopen, but they have not committed to reopening. Yeah.


Yeah. They can't let that fail. You can't let it fail. Just like you can't let the Strand fail in New York as a Stanford student.


Did did you go into the city? Did you kind it? Was that on your radar city? Yeah.


I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember the first time that I went in there knowing full well the legacy and the history that's baked into that. And, you know, I was I was a young person fascinated with that period of time. I remember reading Tom Wolfe's The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test, and it just blew my mind and reading on the road and all of that. So I love all that stuff. And and it is interesting how, you know, what is the long term legacy of that and how it's getting played out right now, like everything from Lululemon to this now swap in how we're thinking about free speech.


Right. Like free speech being the vanguard of the progressive liberals during this period of time when people are getting arrested for selling copies of Howl to underage people to now that being a mirror image of what it once was. Right.


Well, so like exactly to your point. It was the kind of the the main the the overlords of the old culture of the like the 1950s, the stodgy kind of, you know, religious institutional culture that was saying, no, you can't say this, this is the wrong thing to say. And basically arresting people for publishing a book because it had the wrong words in it. And now we're making punk rock nonconformist stars at a mediocre minds when progressives are doing that by saying progressives are the ones who are policing speech.


It's strange and disorienting to see that happening. And, you know, part of that is rooted in in progressive progress.


And part of it is, you know, perhaps a bridge too far in terms I think it starts again.


Good intentions. You know, we're not condoning hate speech here. And people, if you allow free speech to the maximum level, hate speech has to be protected, too. Like like there's a reason the ACLU have have filed cases to support, you know, KKK marches. You know, the idea is that you keep it open so that the marginalized have a space to speak. But that is by nature going to allow everyone to have a space to speak.


But, you know, we're not condoning hate speech at all, but we need to have the big picture in mind always when we're talking about freedom of speech. You know, a good beat poet title for the current age, Jason, with saying this before we went on.


Please stick to the approved words. Yeah, that's that would be the great the great poet title, right? Yeah, it is. Right. Because that's that's like a very provocative punk rock ish title to have in this moment. Right.


Right. Right, right. And that doesn't mean that we don't understand where it's coming from or don't have empathy to people who felt marginalized and want to make things better. But you can't control making things better by saying what you can say and when you can say it and how you can say it. Because if that was true, we wouldn't have old people getting pushed over on the streets. Everything would be cool. But it's not it's not it's not cool.




All right. Let's do some let's do some listener questions, OK?


Listener questions. Let's hear from Josh from Raleigh, North Carolina. Hey, Adam. Hey, Rick.


This is Josh from Raleigh, North Carolina, calling. My question is an aspirational riff off of the conversation that Rich recently had with Lefi Poppa's about the importance of surrounding himself with high vibration people. So my question for both of you is, if you could have a road trip, a pilgrimage, some type of adventure with three people living or dead, who would they be? For me, it would be Rich Ramdas and Father Richard Ra. Sorry, Adam, please place on air.


And thanks so much, guys. Much love, Mamasan. Oh my God. My last day.


Josh, I can't. Wow. What can I be the driver.


That's very generous. I'm, I'm, I'm flattered. Oh yeah. I wouldn't take me. You're bemuse. You would pick yourself.


No. You have to go outrate. Who would you.


Who do you got me. Yeah. I divided up into the living and the undead in the living. I'm praising Barack Obama because he's my favorite podcast.


You're right. You're fired teac not on.


And Elizabeth Gilbert because she's pretty chatty and she'd be fun, right.


Yeah. Because when you're going on a road trip there's lots of things to consider. Like how often is this person going to need to pull over and go to the bathroom. What are their dietary restrictions like. Is this like are you going to be able to do the long hang as you go all the way across?


So you have to not have an old timer who's seen it all and Barack Obama, they could talk. I think you have a lot of great insights. And Elizabeth Gilbert, all very well read people. I learn a lot.


I just like to sit in the back seat and listen to Barack and Liz Gilbert get chatty. Yeah. Which would be good and seek out harm.


Would just like chime in with he just drop a little pearl every once in a while, you know, take that on.


Was as you may or may not know, giant in and he was a Vietnamese refugees, not refugees, Vietnamese monk Monk who ended up having like early mindfulness meditation influence.


And he was he he he and Martin Luther King Jr. were very tight. So my undead is Bruce Lee because he's a cool movie star, John Coltrane, because, you know, he's him.


And and Frank, in the Liz Gilbert role, did you intentionally make these sort of appropriately diverse also you have for each the living and the undead. You have you have an African-American and Asian and a woman.


Well, I'm trying to be I want to make I want you know what I yes, I thought about it, but so I probably would have.


Probably would have, you know, probably would be John Coltrane, Bob Marley and somebody else if I had to pick.


But in this sense, since we're on live on the air here, not live, but on the air, I figured I have so many things I'm interested in. You know, I'm not even into martial arts, but I saw the Bruce Lee documentary recently, and it was either him or Napoleon.


And I went with him, you know, Napoleon really cool. He might be he might be a pain in the ass, though, too. He'd want to drive. Yeah, he wanted to be in control. Yeah. The whole time. But we'd have to, like, strap blocks on his feet so we could use the pedals.


Yeah, this is tough. I get asked this question a lot like do you would you have dinner with. I always stumble. I can never. Come up with anything that interesting? I mean, I just I just ripped off this off the top of my head, but for the living, I had Michael Stipe, David Attenborough. And Richard Branson, OK, or possibly Haruki Murakami, OK? That would be cool. OK, but, you know, I don't know Michael Stipe because he's the lead singer, your favorite all time band of all time.


Yeah, yeah. He's he's he he's he's a must. Yeah. But I could go with Barack Gilberte, you know. Yeah.


These are all cool people. Like it's also about the curation, right. Yeah. That's because you're not going to be talking the whole time or listening the whole time. Like are these people going to get along with each other.


You need to have first of all, you need to have men and women because you have to have a nice balance. You can't. Yes. And will get along was a big thing. That's why I'm I think my living room car is is pretty rock solid. I think that goes I mean, but the dad you just don't know how John Coltrane and Frank are going to get along. Right.


They'll be fine. But if you have Liz Gilbert or you have like Britney Brown, like they get to the heart of things quickly.


Yes. But maybe almost too quickly.


Maybe, you know, when you're when you're dealing with 3000 miles ahead of you. Yes. I don't feel like they would have run out of things to talk about, though.


No, definitely not. You know, who's your who's your the undead?


I got Marcus Aurelius because, you know, what is it like to be the most powerful man in the world and be a philosopher king and be played by Russell Crowe.


You know, he played Russell Russell Crowe didn't play Marcus Aurelius. You know, he played Marcus. Marcus Aurelius was the was played by Rich. I'm black. Oh, that's right. He just passed away. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.


Richard Harris. Richard Harris. Exactly.


You know, chasey Jesus Christ. I mean, why not. Let's get to the bottom of this. Right.


I had Jesus on my list. I cross over and it's a cop out though. It's like Abraham Lincoln and Jesus Christ. And, you know, I was like, are you going to not pick him if you can pick anybody?


And let's let's let's get to the root of this pretty famous. Right.


And while we're at it, Bill, w why not Bill Withers, Bill W from The Secret Society, the founder, the co-founder of the rooms.


I don't know. I don't know. Wow.


It really has it has been kept anonymous at the level of press, radio and film. Is that one of the co-founders of AA. Oh God. Bill Wilson.


Bill Wilson. But you know, I don't know, like that's not the most diverse list either.


No, I don't think there's a right.


I feel like I feel maybe one of the reasons why I struggle with this a little bit is that I get to do this every week on the podcast. Like the podcast is my version of going on a road trip with somebody I want to talk to. Right.


And if you listen to your podcast, you're getting that and you're also getting the that's it's almost like the Barack Obama. Bruce Springsteen is half of the car. Come at me, Barack. Exactly. Come at me. There's an open seat. I'll kick Adam out of here right away.


Barack wants to come and step in and roll on your fire. I'm out of here. Yeah. He's shown his chops. He can handle himself behind a microphone. You new. There's a job opening.


What about the boss? I might be tricky. Oh, all right. Could be good. I don't know. I don't see Bruce coming over here every week.


Barack wants to come here every every other week.


I will. Yeah. I mean, you know, he's got it. He's going to get a pat down and point out he's going to rise Ducati. I mean, here podcasting is a meritocracy. I will have you. Yeah, I will give way.


All right. Let's move on. All right. Cool. This is another interesting question. We don't get every day from Tara in Long Beach, California. Hi, this is Tara and from Long Beach, California. Tara, absolutely fine to play this clip on the air. I wanted to call and clarify my prior question. So my question is, I'm a family physician who worked full time. I have twin three year olds and I am trying to dabble in ultra running.


My wife is supportive of my running, but in a way that can be frustrating and difficult for our relationship. So my question is, how do I best balance these three things that I have going on without disrupting the balance of my relationships as well, specifically with longer runs on the weekends and time away from family? What is a good way to address these issues and have everyone's needs met? Thanks, guys. This is a great question.


I think this is relatable for anybody who gets involved in endurance sports. Yeah. You know, the term Ironmen widow exists for a reason.


Oh, really? Because these pursuits can often end in a cataclysmic relationship results, if not handled appropriately.


I think you are the perfect person to ask this question. Well, it's not easy.


I mean, this is the first thing I would say is, is your set up for failure right out of the gate?


Because this is a very difficult hat trick to accomplish.


And I think. To launch into this, the first thing to bear in mind is you can't excel at all of these things every single day, like there's this idea of how am I going to balance all of these things so that I'm giving them an appropriate amount of attention every single day. And I think that's the wrong way to think about it, because you can't do that.


You can't be at your best as a physician, as a partner, as a parent and as an athlete all the time.


Like it's just not rigged that way. So let go of that fantasy out of the gate and try to configure a schedule and a structure that allows you to kind of toggle between these pursuits, understanding that on certain days your priority is going to be in one of these buckets or two of these buckets, but not all of these buckets. So that over the course of a month or a week, they're all getting an adequate amount of attention, but not all on the same day or at the same time.


So structure and scheduling superimportant. I think that you should craft that schedule in cooperation and partnership with your wife so that your wife is part of organizing what these days are going to look like, that your wife is participating in the allocation of of your time and energy.


And to come to that conversation, trying or endeavoring to the best of your ability to structure your training at periods of time that don't compromise the goals that your wife has or the parenting needs that you both mutually share. So that might mean that your runs have to be super early in the morning before anybody's awake or late at night when everybody's asleep. And I understand that you have a full time job. You're not a professional ultra runner, though, right?


Nobody's paying you to do that. This is something you choose to do. But you've got to make the choice of how you apply that in a way that's not disruptive to your family. You already know that. And that means, you know, finding those windows of opportunity that don't put, you know, your wife schedule Aperol and create this tension in the relationship.


The other thing is you don't want to ever set yourself up to be overtrained or overly fatigued. You've got to be able to show up 100 percent for your kids and for your wife when you're not training and you're not working.


So that so that that doesn't become an additional drag on top of the hour spent when you're not at home.


And I think what's been helpful to me in doing this is twofold. First, anticipate your wife's needs and your kid's needs and in advance so that you're planning for that.


And you're not like showing up, you know, oh, you didn't get the groceries because you had to go running or something like that. These are the things that, like our small things in isolation, but they add up and they can really derail a relationship. Right. So being ahead of the curve in terms of understanding and anticipating what your wife is going to need and and fulfilling those needs before perhaps she's even aware that she needs them filled. So that way you're demonstrating through your behavior, repetitive behavior that you're conscious of.


The fact that you're also running is perhaps taking you away from the relationship more than she would like. But you're showing up in ways that are telling her like you're here, right? Even when you're not there, you're actually there.


And then when you are there to be 100 percent like when I was trained for Ultraman at my peak, I've told the story before, but you know, I come back from like a 30 mile run or a six hour bike ride and I walk in the house like just wasted and Julie would like hand me a baby and be like your turn by, you know, I'm going to go do my thing right. And I couldn't be like, I need a nap or I got to, like, shower.


It's like, no, you've got to be on point. Right. It's your turn. And by respecting that and making sure that I was present when those moments arose, that's how we were able to kind of keep everything moving and on track. If I was just like, no, I can't or or sorry, I've got a train right now, like, that's not going to work so well.


There times where she pushed back against it, like she was very I mean, I was lucky because I had a very supportive piece all about you fighting like like.




And that doesn't mean that it wasn't hard because we're talking about a ton of time. And also, you know, we were going through some financial stuff. It was like a very difficult period. And, you know, I credit Julie tremendously for for really being an incredible support in a way that I think most partners wouldn't and can't be expected to, honestly.


So it's understandable, like what you're going to go run for.


Like we have we have twin baby, like, what are you doing?


You know, like you got to be here. So that's why I think anticipating your partner's needs and the needs of your children is so important. I also think that you have to choose your moments, like I said at the outset, it's impossible to excel at all of these things every single day. And if you attempt this, you're going to fail in all the categories. You're not going to be able to train like a pro. So don't try to.


And there's going to be days where maybe you have some big run on your calendar and this is really important to you. But something went haywire at home and the kids need you and you've got to be like, I got what are my priorities like I got to show up for my kids. I got to show up for my wife. Like, what is most important in the grand scheme of things? Is it really worth derailing your relationship for ultra running?


Like ultra running is something you can do your whole life if you do it responsibly.


And so that doesn't mean that that your needs shouldn't be met either. It's important if this is bringing you happiness and fulfillment, that you should have the freedom and the the license to, like, do the things that you enjoy doing, which is why communication is so important. Right. And if this is important to you, it's incumbent upon you to communicate the importance of it to your wife so that she really understands, like, does she really understand why is this important to you?


Why are you doing this? And the more that you can have that channel of communication open with your wife, I think you'll be in a better place to engender the empathy and support that that you're looking for. But that's a two way street. You've got to give it in return as well. And you can't expect her to support you unless you're supporting her in kind. So what is it? What is her what is your wife's ultra running like?


What is it that she would like to be doing? And how can you go out of your way to make sure that you're supportive to her in that regard, in the way that you would like to be supported? It's great advice, I can't offer anything to really to this discussion other than because I'm not doing anything.


But you have a baby and you're trying to do this Gorgons thing and you've got a soul at home. So how's that going? I had to talk. I had to talk her into the Goggins thing.


She was not really feeling the gogin well, because for her, she's like with the baby almost all the time. And I have my work, which at least allows me, even if I'm in the same apartment, I'm in a psychic space that is my own. And she's not really permitted a or the psychic psychic space that is her own too often. And so when I run training often I'll take the baby out with me in a stroller run. Right.


That was the other thing I had on my list of things to respond to.


Like get the get the twin, you know, baby carriage thing is called. I haven't had babies in. You call them. Yeah, sure.


Yeah. It's been a while and I still got dollars and you know, she lives in Long Beach.


There's like those paths along the the, the ocean, you know, where you can like push a stroller and they can ride bikes alongside you or whatever.


But so I did have to talk her into that and it just and it just took that. I explain to her why it was important to me as best I could, even though I couldn't really explain to you what to me. But but she understood that she never didn't want me to do it.


And it doesn't really show up as much in the running because for me, most of my runs are a little over an hour, sometimes less, sometimes a little over an hour. And if I want to do a long one for me, it's like a ten mile run usually. So that's like it's not it's not like a 30 mile run, but swimming at least doing the dives in Malibu, that has become a lot less frequent than it used to be for me.


I try to get us out there once a week, but that includes taking everybody out, getting a beach tent set up, doing the whole thing.


Otherwise, as somebody who who who participated in that with you, I can I can affirm that that is a languishing affair that goes on for hours unnecessarily.


I'm like, are we going to swim and get this done? What are we doing? We're looking for our T-shirt.


Like, Yeah, I'm like, I'm out for a workout. And you're looking for octopus. Yes, that's right.


We're we're getting in touch with our lyric escape. Yeah. Like, no wonder she's like, what are you doing? Get that.


She comes out with us. She's only been able to she went one time. She doesn't like 55 degree water. So for her it's like if the video is good and it's warmish, she's down. And so I we have made it possible for her to go with the group. And then I, I did my own thing after. We've done that once. But it does take like I can't expect her to go sit on the beach when the wind is howling and it's getting sandblasted with the baby while I go on a little swim.


So that is not happening as often as it used to. But she loves the beach also, so she likes being out there. So it's really about the communication aspect is important. And you do have to kind of supplement, especially knowing that I have four by four coming up, basically after four by four. She prefers kind of workout mat workouts with this trainer from our gym we no longer go to because of the pandemic. And so we've been having him help us sometimes.


And and after the four by four forty eight, we're going to prioritize more of those workouts that she can do and then I'll do, you know, and so we're just doing that. So that's kind of the thing she wants to do to, you know, how am I supporting her in kind. That's the next step. So my running, I'll probably do little less mileage every month and build in this other strength aspect. And that's just how it's going to have to be because you can't do it.


All right. Yeah. Next question. Yeah, sorry I made that about me. No, it's good you're in it right now. You got a baby. I mean, you're trying to do something hard while you. Tara. All right, Emily from Minneapolis, Harrison.


Adam, this is Emily calling from Minneapolis, Minnesota. And this is it OK to play on the air? I was just calling today because I've been listening for years and almost two years over and about 98 percent vegan. So you could say I am drinking the Kool-Aid. But the reason for my call is where are you both consuming information at this point? I'm curious what kind of podcast you might be listening to and also media and books and things like this where you're getting that inspiration from.


So I look forward to hearing this on it. Thanks so much. Mm. Adam, yes, you want to take a crack? She wanted to hear from both of us. Oh, you want me to go first again? Go ahead.


OK, probably because my answer is going to be so disappointing. So go. No, you're. Come on. I'm right now I'm reading James McBride's Good Lord Bird, which is about basically it's historical fiction. It's all about the John Brown abolitionist who is this kind of had an army of of abolitionists. And they went and they tabit havoc on all sorts of slave owners in Missouri. So he was in Kansas and they would run across the border and just kill, kill slavers and and, you know, deliver God's justice.


And it's really hilarious. It's actually kind of an offbeat, hilarious take on this real thing that happened. James McBride, author of Color of Water, which one source? I think it won National Book Award as well, the poets or something. And then I didn't read that. But that was an incredible memoir about his mother. Kill Him and Leave was the first McBride book that I read. And that's about James Brown. It's it's remarkable. I found it in some bookstore.


Not many people have read it. It's like a 200 page book. And it's it's it's a sensational. And this book is is magnificent.


So I'm reading that and I'm listening to Save the Cat writes a novel that's part of my it's my audio book right now, part of my deep dive.


The Cat is the screenwriting thing. Right. And so there's novelists kind of took it and spun it. It's under that banner. But it's it's it's for novelists. Right. And she takes the same lessons and spins it and kind of uses fiction. And it's helped me just kind of like think because I'm between drafts on on novel love and writing and I'm just kind of listening to it and see if I can, you know, this is I mean, after two drafts, I'm looking at like ten draft kind of plan and I'm listening to it now.


And then the podcast I listen to you, aside from the original podcast, which I do listen to, I listen to Barack might have to wait.


Well, yeah, it's true. I am trying to hold on to that seat.


I listen to I love listening to the podcast. I also listen every morning. Pardon the interruption. This shouty sports podcast and occasionally the daily and revisionist history is a regular for me as well.


And you know, good Lord Bird is is a show starring Ethan Hawke.


I knew that it became a win open book for ages. Then it became a show. And I thought, now I'm reading the book first. Yeah, yeah.


I love Ethan Hawke. He's fabulous. We talked about his TED talk, didn't we roll on? We did. Yeah, we did. I still want to get him on the podcast.


So just listen to speaking of podcast, I listen to an interview that Ethan did with I think it was on it was either on the watch or the big picture, like those those Ringer TV movie podcasts. It was great.


Like, I love listening to that guy talk. And he was talking about Good Lord Bird and how much he loved the book and. Well, and how is this passion of his to play this character, even though he thought he was too young to do it, like he thought a little bit. Yeah. It should be like Jeff Bridges or somebody like that who is older, but apparently I'm not sure yet, but it's been very well-received.


Yeah. I mean and well, the story is told through the the eyes of an eight year old or 12 year old boy, something like a young boy slave who John Brown liberates kind of against his will and mistakes him for a girl. And so then he goes around dressed as a girl, which saves his life. But he he's like liberated against his will, goes with John Brown. And John Brown is is prone to all sorts of like crazy sermons, like you can't eat unless he's done to our prayer.




Well, he's all crazy fire and brimstone, like he's over the top, like, all the time.


Yeah, right. I said at the outset that my answer might be a little disappointing. I mean, here's the thing. So much of my information diet is dictated by the podcast, like, who's the guest? Who's coming up? Typically there's a book or a bunch of podcast interviews with that person, a deep dive into their life that involves, you know, thirty tabs open on my browser. So I immerse myself in the world of the upcoming guest and try to inhabit that in the most method, way that I possibly can.


And that consumes most of my time in terms of news. My kind of go to for news is generally Twitter.


Like I follow tons of journalists and I follow journalists of of different mindsets and worldviews.


So I keep things mixed up by in my feed in that way. And so rather than, you know, open up The New York Times or The L.A. Times, but I tend to consume my news through Twitter. How many people still do that? I do a lot of that, too. I get to a lot of links, but it ends up being and then I can read different takes on the same story or different perspectives on on what's going on.


Yeah. In general, you know, curiosity leads the way for me.


And that's really what the podcast is about in terms of podcasts that I consume and listen to. I don't people are always surprised to hear this, but I don't listen to a lot of podcasts that are in the vein of what I do like. There's there's a handful of other people that are kind of would be considered, you know, kind of similar to this show. Yeah. And unless I have. I guess that I'm researching who's on one of those shows, I typically don't do that because it sort of feels like this is what I do and that feels like homework.


Yeah, as opposed to enjoyment for me. Yeah. So I end up listening to a podcast that piqued my interest in other areas. Like I also I love everything Malcolm does. So I listen to revisionist history and his other various shows, broken record.


I like I love conversations about movies and television.


So I listen to the big picture on the watch. I do subscribe to the daily. I don't listen to all of them. I kind of pick and choose with that. Yeah, I still, you know, old school. I still love Marc Maron, the WTF podcast I've been enjoying. Mike Birbiglia is podcast working it out, which is fine. Have you ever listen to him. It's pretty cool. Like he'll bring on. Most of his guests are comics, but he brings them on and he has kind of a series of questions that he asks all of them.


But the premise is really I'm working on this material and let me like try it out on you and give me feedback. And then they're like, I'm working on this. And then they're like, so it's like a notes session. That's great. Which gives you a glimmer, like a glimpse into the creative process and how to.


And also, this is a very important thing for anybody who's trying to do anything creative, like how you give and receive feedback and notes is really important. Like can you like who you choose to bring into that circle is important how you ask the question and how you receive the response and how the person provides the response. Like there are people who are really good at giving feedback and doing it in a conscious way that's constructive versus destructive or just negative. And I think there's an art to that.


And when you can be in a receiving mode and set your ego aside and actually hear what the person is saying and not be reactive and kind of embrace it, even if they're like, I don't like this, I think you completely lost the thread with this. And you're like, oh, that's can you be curious and interested in why that person feels that way? I think is fun and helpful. And I think Mike is really good at that himself and he's so fun and engaging to listen to.


So I like that. I listen to Pivot with Scott Galloway and Kara Swisher business I love. Brian complements the moments, which is all about conversations with people like what is your inflection moment in your career of kind of the focus of that just for fun? I love the reliables. When Bill Simmons, like, you know, talks about old movies like that you love to go back to. I love Rob Bell's podcast. I like Pete Holmes. You made it weird.


Like, I'm always mixing up my my podcasting like it kind of line up. But those are just some that I've been listening to lately.


I love it. And I watch a lot of docs. I watched I watched the you see everything. Now I see everything. But I, I, I try to see as much as possible. Yeah. I watched the first half of the Billy Eilish documentary last night.


OK, fantastic. Really. Yeah. Netflix on Apple plus. Yeah. What else is on your radar for movies right now.


I don't know. It's weird like the Golden Globes were last night and I didn't watch it, but I was kind of scrolling through Twitter and looking at all the people that won and I was amazed. At how few of the movies or shows that I've actually seen, yeah. It's one of those. Well, it's one of those years you're not going to the movies, you know. I know. Yeah, I know. Lots of good movies to be streamed at home in the coming weeks, though.


All right. Stay tuned. So that's it, listeners? Yeah, I think we did it.


Are we done? We rocked it. I think we're done. We're going to land this plane. Yo, awesome man, thank you. How do you feel? I feel good, I like this one. I think I'll listen to it.


You get a do you do you go back and listen to roll on?


No, I don't know how you say no. I maybe once or twice I try to I'm trying to get better. You're doing this a half years.


Yeah. But I can't go back and listen to old shows. I never do that. I never do. You know, I can't just because I can't. I can't. I can't listen to my own voice there.


You know, you hear yourself, I'm with you.


But what you can do is you can follow Adam on the Sociales at Adam Skolnick on Rich Roll on all the places I might do a clubhouse.


Are you going to do a clubhouse?


Well, I listen to my friend Neil Strauss, did a conversation with Jared Leto, the clubhouse the other night, and I thought it was great, super fun. And people got to ask Jared questions.


And I was like, this is cool. OK, we'll do something there. I don't know. All right. Anyway, let me know. Clubhouse of that retro rich role for that or.


No, I don't know. Well, I don't know what I would do there. I'm just you know, I just thought I had a good experience listening and, you know, how many people were in the clubhouse. I mean, it maxed out. I think they maxed out of five thousand and then there's like spillover rooms. So it was, you know, looking like a huge movie star. Right. So I was like everybody wanted to hear what he had to say.


Yeah, but it was fine.


All right. If you want to have your question considered for a future role on Episode again, leave us a message on our voicemail for two, four, two, three, five, four, six, two, six. Pick up a copy of Voicing Change Patrol dot com slash v.c.


Check out the show notes to see links to everything we talked about today on the episode page at Roll Dotcom. Don't forget to subscribe to the show on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, all the places we've got a clip channel on YouTube.


If you dig the short stuff, including the answers to all the questions we asked, we're uploading those there too.


So you can find that original podcast clips. You just search on YouTube and it's linked up in the show notes and all that stuff. That's it. Done.


I want to thank everybody who helped put on today's show, Jason Carmello, for audio engineering production show notes, interstitial music and matters Sundari and unlisted Jack of all trades behind the scenes, Blake Curtis for his video wizardry, filming and editing all of these. It's no small task. Jessica Miranda for whipping up the graphics. We got Ashley Rogers on deck today for portraits. What's up, Ali?


Georgia Whaley for Copywriting Dekay, our man for advertising relationships and theme music, as always, by Tyler Tripa.


And Harry, appreciate you guys. Thanks for the love.


And don't take your attention for granted and see you back here in a couple of days with another episode and back with Adam in two weeks.


Yeah, I'll be here. Tell us about the four by four by forty eight, if you might have to wheel me in, but I'll be here tonight.


And just, just remember when you're out there and you're hurting.


Yes. That the Iron Cowboy is doing an Ironman today.


OK, damn you, Iron Cowboy. All right, Pace.


That's how.