The Rich Roll podcast. Hey, everybody, welcome to the podcast. We're back today with another edition of Roll on my homeslice and trusty hype man, Adam Skolnick. Riding Sidecar as usual. Minds will be expanded. Souls will be soothed. But first, let's take care of business or brought to you today by my favorite mad scientist at SEAD, bringing the heat with the world's best probiotic.

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I'm fascinated by all biomes of the microbiome. I think you're more of a macro biome guy. If I had to go if I had to choose, I'd go macro. But you're turning me on the micro. All right.

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We are back with a hotly awaited new edition of Roll On, wherein Mr. Skolnik and I blather and pontificate on matters that sounds both pertinent and possibly irrelevant, depending upon your line.

I guess that's good news and bad a little show until we answer some listener questions from our voicemail. Yes. If you're interested in having your question fielded by us, ring us up at 44, two, three, five, four, six, two, six. Quick reminder, before we get into it, if you enjoy all the free content that we diligently toil here to create, it would be very meaningful if you could take a second to hit that subscribe button on YouTube or wherever you enjoy the audio incarnation of the show.

Leave us a comment. Share the show with your friends or on social media. Also, another reminder that we recently created a clip's channel on YouTube. So if you're into sampling the show or want to indulge in just the nuggets, including we put up discreet short videos of all the questions that we get and answer so you can find those there. We drop those videos pretty much every day. So check it out, link in the show, notes and in the description below on YouTube.

Or you can just search rich podcast clips on YouTube. Also voicing change update.

This is the podcast coffee table book that we created.

Some of you might know that we ran out of stock just before Christmas, right in the midst of the gifting season, and certainly didn't have enough to ship, much to the chagrin of people who are looking to gift this.

It is a great gift. That is one of the lessons learned when you're self publishing, how many books do you order? But we have really upped and the new stockpile is en route and should be here in the next couple of days.

So we'll be shipping in the next week.

Second printing. Second printing. You you were just signing a bunch of other books this weekend, right? I saw in your Instagram. Yeah. The cookbook is a cookbook.

So if I'm going to be done to that, I mean, well, those are with major publishers, so it's different, OK?

They always seem to have stock on hand.

OK, yeah, we were signing those. We offer signed copies of all our books, Plant Power Plant Power Italia. This cheese is nuts finding ultra.

You can get signed version of those through my website without dotcom and voicing change you can learn more about and grab your signed or unsigned version of that book at Rich Roll Dotcom Slash v.C.

I owe my wife a subscription to Juli's Cheese Shtreimel.

Yeah, you owe it to her. I told you I was going to buy it. I promised her and I haven't signed up yet. Have have you guys tried it, you know.

Oh you have it. No. Oh, remind me to bring a couple of wheels next time. OK, you should at least try it. Yeah, it's fantastic.

No, I know she wants only thing she misses the most growing this company.

She's got a lot of excitement around what she's doing, a lot of momentum. So it's pretty cool.

It is cool. Yeah. Is she going to be in retailers at some stage? Well, you can get it at Erwan right now. That's the only retailer. She just did a kind of collaboration with a monthly wine subscription service where they kind of combined a package, but it's mostly a direct to consumer subscription box. There'll be some retail outlets at some point to be determined. But the focus of what she's trying to build is that direct to consumer model.

It's a great model. Yeah.

Cool. So good to see you. Good to see you. Two weeks since we did this. How's it going? It's going good. Yeah, life is good. Just been busy and we're deep. We're doing so brewery my house.

So you are. Yeah. It's always soberer at my house.

Yeah. Yeah. But I'm not sober but you pick the shortest month of the year to do it. That shows how not sober I am.

OK, how's it going. Where it's going. Good Whuffie. Yeah.

No it's fine. I mean I'm not, I don't, we don't indulge too much although the you know just a cocktail or a glass of wine here. There. So it's not like it's a big lifestyle change for me. Right. But it is like empty calories change, which is nice.

I do feel like I've gotten a little bit lighter.

Well, this fits nicely into this fitness challenge that you've brought upon yourself. So let's talk about that. Let's do that. How do you want to talk? Well, tell me what you're working towards right here and we'll dive into it.

Well, it's funny. I mean, I don't feel like I necessarily was necessarily working towards it, but we know David Goggins is doing his four by four by forty eight. I don't know if you if you listeners have not seen go on his Instagram. It's a challenge he does once a year. It's from March 5th to March 7th, starts at 8:00 p.m. on a Friday. And the last run, I believe, is four p.m. Sunday or eight p.m. Sunday.

I forget how it works. But every four hours from 8:00 p.m. Friday to till it ends on Sunday for 48 hours, you run for miles. And so at the end of that two day period, you've run 48 miles. Mm hmm. And so I saw it happen last year. I was not going to get involved in that. I think we had just done Otello. And I just I wasn't going to do it this year. I've done a lot more running.

And I decided I thought I would do it. And then I kind of casually mentioned to David and he he basically locked it down. And so I'm doing it. And and, you know, the way I talk about it is I'm not I don't say I'm trying to do it. I say I'm doing it. So, yeah.

You can't just casually mentioned it to David. Like, I'm thinking about like, you know, if you do that, like he's going, I think I'm going to say I want to do this.

So so I so far haven't been training in any specific way. The last month I ran 110 miles. So this month, you know, it's been about 25 mile weeks basically for me just in general. And I feel like.

I'm capable of doing it. I don't know, I mean, my weeks, the way they work is there's typically a longer run on a Sunday and, you know, four to five mile run, some of them with intervals, some of them just Zonta during the week.

So I think I plan on adding a little mileage going leading up, maybe doing a couple of 10 mile runs and stuff like that. But we had talked about something. So I want Ritchie's training.

Well, first of all, you are working with a coach, right? Yeah. This Engvall guy. Oh, yes. I'm working with Nicole Run champ. Yes. The swim run champ champion who owns Engvall.

And let me make sure I have his name correct before I screw up. No, no, I know I.

I call this shows me this is telling me a lot. That's called a character reveal. Is it real? I just know now I know how deeply emotionally invested you are in this way.

I was ready. Nicholas Ramirez, OK.

And he's French actually and lives in Sweden. And he's he's been talking to me, but he has not come back with a training plan yet for this. He's just been giving me like runs to do and showed up in my Garmin and I do them. And he so far has not been like personally coaching me hard core. I think I don't have anything on the calendar. I told him about this. He has not given me anything specific other than to say the main thing is and most people want to lay on the couch after you do the four miles because you think you need a lot of rest.

But he's saying, don't do that. Don't let your legs get heavy. Make sure you're not doing that. And so he's told me that David gave me some advice on nutrition, like, you know, what he does anyway. Smoothie, you know, before you run, you know, then meals after you run kind of thing to make sure and making sure you get ahead of your nutrition. You have prepared ahead of time. The second day, he says, is very exhausting.

So, you know, that's when people, like, take more naps on the second day. Right? Right. Meaning, I guess Saturday, the Sunday. So I don't know. I mean, I'm just I am kind of we like. I do like I did until I got going.

I kind of like well, I'm kind of doing this, but I am really there's no there's no succinct plan in place right now.

You know, I've lost my wings. I've winged my whole career. And it's working out OK. Right. But what Adam, what are you capable of? If you actually formulated a plan, like had a five year plan, that's the growth opportunity. It is. Well, there's lots of growth opportunities here. I mean, a few thoughts. I got plenty to say about this guy. I think what's great about talking about this is that we can talk in a more meta global way about the power of endurance and endurance challenges and talk a little bit more at length about how you plan for approach and participate in challenges like this, which I think is something that a lot of the people who are watching or listening, you know, spend a lot of time thinking about as well.

Yes, I think it's a good opportunity to do that.

First, I love this challenge for lots of reasons, not the least of which is, you know, it's led by, you know, by Commodore David Goggins. Right. So he's he he he will hold you to account.

You know, I love how in a little sign up area, it's like cost zero dollars. Yeah. No. Yes. Like this is all about you and you. But but also this sense that like David is is peering at you from on high and is not going to let you get away with anything which I think, you know, engender a lot of excitement.

And he checks in before each run. Right. With motivation.

It's a it's a social media driven thing. A lot of engagement on his behalf.

And but he also you can sign up on his website to specifically get involved in it. You can raise money for a charity through it, but you don't have to sign up. He's like, doesn't matter if you sign up. That's the whole point. Like, you could do it your way, but it's not about that.

Yeah. The second thing is that I love about this is that it's hard, but it's also accessible, like it's very hard, but also it's extremely doable. It's similar to the twenty nine zero twenty nine thing like. Yeah. What do you just you just hike up this mountain and you take the chairlift down like it doesn't seem that hard, but because you're trying to achieve the elevation of Everest, like you're going through the night and and you know, it's not until you're like two thirds of the way into it that people realize, like, oh, this is harder than I imagined.

And I think this is similar in that regard. You're essentially running an ultra with brakes, right? It's a forty eight mile run that is like an interval workout. Yeah. On some level.

But because it's only four miles out of time, it just feels doable. Like how hard is that I go I've run four miles, I can wrap my head around.

That's exactly how I got suckered into that.

But I also think that it's worth taking seriously and looking at it as an opportunity to more deeply connect with yourself as an athlete. Yeah. And to figure out, like, how you approach these things.

And I think so when is this in early March, March 5th, March 5th. So so my overall plan, by the way, the reason I'm doing any of this is because I am an older dad right now. And my plan is just to is to, you know, train for that, like to stay around and stay and stay active and be able to chase him down and not like have my late game fatherhood impact him in any way. That's like he's going to even know it's a highly laudable goal.

Yeah. Like that should be the goal. Yeah. For you. It's a great goal. There's only so much that we can do at this point, given that this challenge is only three weeks away. So it's not like you've got six months to prepare for this thing. You've done what you've done leading up to it. You've put in some miles so you're comfortable running distances, but you've never done anything that involves sleep deprivation or anything that involves this number of miles in such a compressed period of time.

And so when I think about how you can best prepare yourself for this, there's a couple of things. First of all, nothing about this involves speed or power. This is all about resilience and persistent motion. You don't need to go out and do intervals. You don't need to run any faster than a conversational pace.

And I would go so far as to suggest that a great method to start to rehearse is a walk run method going into this. And, you know, for people that are runners talking about walking feels like a weakness. But when you do it properly, implementing a strategic walk run strategy into your training and your participation in the event will actually provide dividends beyond what you can imagine. Because if you're training your walk, you can actually walk faster than a jog like over time.

And it provides your heart and your lungs the ability to get these mini recoveries within the runs. So I would suggest to you that the overarching kind of philosophy right now should be, how do I get my body ready to be in a state of persistent motion when it's very fatigued? So that means that you don't need to go out and do 12 or 15 mile runs. You're better off going out for maybe an eight mile run where every every mile or half mile you walk for five minutes.

And the idea is getting through all of these workouts, feeling fresh and then perhaps having days where you're doing short runs. And I use the term run, you know, very broadly like these can be very easy runs, light jogs, but you're doing two or three throughout the day. So you're getting your acclimating, your body to kind of always being moving. And it has nothing to do with being fast or being winded or anything like that. It's really about can you keep moving forward when you're tired?

Which brings me how many days a week showed you that this weekend, next week?

Well, I think, you know, in a broader context, I would approach this from a perspective of of creating a period of training program where you're building your base, then you're building strength. Then you're, you know, getting a little bit of power. You're having easy weeks and then you're having harder weeks. And then you enter into the phase where you're really getting race specific and you're doing periodic simulation days, which I think you can still do and we can talk about, which is where you kind of mimic the actual event, like you might write them.

So like, yeah, like like when I was training for Ultraman like two months out, I picked three days or my coach Chris and I picked, you know, OK, this week on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, you're going to do seventy percent of the Ultraman event and then we're going to have kind of a rest week and then we're going to build up towards over the next couple of weeks to a second race simulation weekend where we're going to do eighty percent of the distance.

We're going to repeat that, have a rest week and then build up again and then do ninety percent of it. And that serves many masters.

First of all, it's it's it's giving your body a sense of what this endeavor is going to look like and feel like. And also from a mental perspective, once you complete those simulation weekends, you're like, oh, I can I now I can wrap my head around this crazy thing I never thought I could do before. In your case, I would say we're three weeks out, so maybe you can do take two or three sim days between now and the event where you do, you know, 60 percent of the four by four by forty eight where you're running like two miles every.

Four hours for, you know, twenty four hours or something like that, and you're like, OK, I did that and then maybe, probably just you were only three weeks out, so I would suggest maybe two, some days and then a second one where you do three miles, but maybe you do it every three hours for twenty four hours.

Like, I don't think there's a lot of benefit beyond the mental component of this to beating yourself up too much between now and then. You've kind of done the work, like the work that you've done to date is pretty much going to dictate. You can't cram for an endurance race to the point. So there's only so much you can do now. And the worst thing that you want is to be tired. On the day that the event starts, you want to be as fresh as possible.

So making sure that you're, you know, for seven to 10 days before this, you're really keeping it light. I think it's going to be super important.

And I don't know that there is any real benefit to subjecting yourself to sleep deprivation, which you're already experiencing because you have a baby.

Yes, I have a baby that now has just popped his second tooth and is learning to corkscrew and his.

You're not sleeping, so. No, but those you know, I think when you wake up in the middle of the night and you've got to put the baby back down, you might as well go out the door and run three miles before you go back to bed. Like that would be a cool experience just for mental resilience to, like, be like, oh, it's 3:00 in the morning and I went out for a run.

Well, I mean, like, I actually think Zuma is going to help me with this because I have been going on on fumes for a while sleep wise. And when I was reporting on the Katsu thing, I had I had two or three days in a row where I was up at four in the morning to, like, talk to Pakistan. And it was so easy because I've been getting up at that hour. That's one of his hours that he gets up.

Right. And so I've been getting up at that hour and I was able to do it. And so I think I do think that's going to help me.

So I think that that's a mental hump in the sense that you you go through a training regimen to prepare your body so your body, you know, is prepared for the physical endeavor that you're doing. But interjecting sleep deprivation into your training program doesn't create the same benefit, at least in my experience. Not like like, oh, I did all this sleep deprivation training. So now sleep deprivation is not a problem for me.

There's something about sleep deprivation that it's going to it's going to show how much you you you've experienced that it's still very hard. And for me, like in my own experience, that's that's the hardest thing. Like, I you know, when I did the Epic five, like the sleep deprivation component of it was really the most challenging for me personally. So I don't know how much benefit you get from subjecting yourself to that unnecessarily, other than, like I said, like the the mental strength that you garner from having weathered that.

So this is going to be like three weeks is a tricky time because you want to get some interesting training and that's going to get your head in your body. Right. But you can't do too much because you don't want to be tired. And I think that you could wake up tomorrow and do this like I don't know that you need to, because I do think this is this is mostly a mental thing for somebody.

I put my baby on one hundred miles. Last mile. Yeah.

So, you know, you have some fitness with running. Yeah.

And I don't think that you need to be that fit to do this because you could literally walk all of these four miles. Right. For this whole thing and still get it done. Yeah, it's really a mental thing. And I think it's interesting that the first run starts at like what, like 4:00 p.m. or something? No, 8:00 p.m. 8pm.

OK, so what's cool about that is that you're going to go through the evening and sleep deprivation aspect of this on the front end of your experience, like if it if the first run was at eight o'clock in the morning, then you're dealing with the night time and all of that when you're much more fatigued.

Yeah. So I think that was smart that he set it up that way. Yeah. And that caters to, you know, new people who haven't done indicators of the nine to five hours mostly.

Yeah, exactly. So that they can do it and still, you know, be in their job or whatever. Yeah.

So I think that's cool. I think, you know, in a broader sense, talking about endurance, true endurance. You know, everybody knows who's listening to this show that I'm a giant proponent of Zonta training.

And I think what you get with that, it's it's really to really be effective.

With this Zonta philosophy, you have to play the long game. It's not something that you can develop in a short period of time, literally to to reach your kind of potential and capacity with that philosophy.

It takes it takes a couple of years like you can.

I was wondering because I'm because I'm like at eleven, twenty a mile and that's my zone too. And it started at like 12, 15.

And I'm like, this is why people burn out on it because they get frustrated. When am I going. I just want to feel yeah. They just want to feel fast. They abandon it, you know, before they get the benefit of it, which is why it's a very particular type of display. When that kind of discipline that requires you to hold back and you think like, excuse me, you think like in another year that 11, 15 could be 10, 30 or something like that, I can guarantee you that it would be at least that.

But it requires very strict adherence and it demands consistency. Like, you can't you can't train three days a week in Zone two and expect to get a great return. It's only when you're doing it day in, day out, day in, day out, because the whole idea is you're not really wearing yourself out so that you can get up and do it again the next day.

So five to five days a week, OK? Yeah. And you know that what that program would look like wouldn't mean that you're running every single day, but there would be some multisport activity that would contribute to you developing that endurance capacity, which then in turn creates greater mitochondrial density and your ability for your cells to produce energy at a lower burn rate.

And it helps enhance your body's ability to like, utilize and metabolize oxygen for fuel and fat for fuel, all of these things that contribute to true endurance. So that this is something that Chris would always say to me, when you're truly, truly fit in an endurance context and I look at your Garmin data and I look at your heart rate graph, it should be flat all the way across. Like if you're doing a 10 mile run, like how how how straight can you make that heart rate graph line such that it's wavering as little as possible?

And he would say to me, I shouldn't be able to tell whether you're running uphill, flat or downhill because that heart rate should always be the same. And when you have that zone to fitness, let's say you're running on a flat and your heart rate's 140, too. You should be able to start climbing that grade, maintain that 140 to heart rate. You're going to slow down a little bit. But the idea is keeping that heart rate as flat as possible.

Like right on point for me, it would be like one 42 for somebody else is going to be somebody else and to maintain that on a descent as well.

And when you have this, then when you get into some speed work and some tempo work, you can dial it up like, OK, I'm going to do I'm going to run 20 minutes. It's zone to and then I'm going to do a round of intervals where I run, you know, two minutes at a, you know, 160 heart rate and then bring it back down for a minute and then go back up again. When you're really fit in an endurance context, you can ramp up for that tempo effort and then your heart rate will quickly settle back down into that zone to range.

When you don't have that true endurance fitness, it's going to take a long time for that hurry to come back down. And that's how I can like just internally just being connected to my body when I know I'm not fit or. Yeah, I'm in a really good fitness place right now, but it is playing the long game, you know, and it and it does require a certain kind of discipline and an unbelievable amount of consistency to get there and adherence to a well thought out period.

I schedule like ideally when you're going to tackle a big challenge, something that intimidates you, that scares you, something that is outside of your comfort zone that you've never done before, you do want to pick a date on the calendar that is, you know, six to eight months out, and then you can really create and craft a program that will maximize your physical potential and what you can achieve in that and that specific period of time, like a like a longer swim run or something like that.

Yeah. If you were if you were going to do a full Otello. Right. You know, the seventy kilometer or something like that, like do you have a year to plan. Well if we have a year like we can really, you know, get get into the details of it and if you take it seriously and prioritize it, then I think, you know, people are always amazed at what they can accomplish.

I think so my strategy, I do have a course kind of in mind and there's a little gradual I mean, you would you would call it flat, but there's a gradual uphill and a gradual downhill just in the streets all around me. So I thought, like, when I get tired, I could walk the uphill and then jog the downhill and walk uphill and jog the downhill as my kind of safe.

Yeah, you told me about this the other day and I thought that was, you know, ill advised. I think that you you do have access to some pretty flat terrain. Yeah. In your house.

We talked about specifically that of course would be. But I would just keep it as flat and as simple as possible. Like there's no need to add a complex fire into this with all kinds of different grades and try to figure that out. I would just I would keep it on the flats.

Well, these are like I said, you'd call it flat. But like, those streets have like a little bit uptake. Like, you gained like fifty feet one way, fifty feet the other way.

But what is your thinking in terms of why that would be out of. Well, just running them regularly, because it's become like the pandemic round, because when when you couldn't go on on the bike path and everyone was like clogging all these streets and these are very wide streets that you can get away from people. So it became like close. Would that be the course that you would use for the event itself?

Yes. Yes. I don't think that's smart. Because the downhills, you think you're resting, but those can be like especially late in the game, those are treacherous, like it's the downhills that can beat you up just as much as the essense, OK?

And I think you would just be better off keeping it really simple and on the flats and win. And you build in these, like, walk periods and you pace yourself out and understand that, you know, whatever four mile leg that you're on, it's not about that four mile leg. It's about the four mile leg that you're going to be tackling six hours later. So you're in a state of constant motion, but also constant conservation. Right? You're always thinking about what's coming several hours later.

You're mindful of what you're doing in the moment. But it's all about like, how can I there's a there's an equation that you have to run, like what is the minimal amount of output in this moment so that I'm not spending too much time on this four mile leg, because the more time it takes you to do that, the less rest you're getting. Right. Right. But you don't want to overextend yourself because you're going to, you know, meet the reaper six hours later and crash and burn.

So constant conservation trying to be as efficient as possible. Yeah. And that's why I think the walk run method can be super beneficial to start building. Like, I would say, like, you know, like this doesn't have to be for all your your runs leading up to this. But if you start practicing doing these intervals where I'm going to run for a mile and then I'm going to walk for 30 seconds or something like that and then run, and when you're walking, be mindful of how you're walking like you can train your walk such that the walk can be almost as fast as your jog.

And you're you're not using nearly as much energy and your lungs in your heart get a chance to rest. But it's something that you train like anything else.

So I think paying attention to that will be huge for you getting into this.

I've been doing those like like I said, these intervals where it's 30, 60, 90 seconds, two minutes, up to five minutes at a tempo and then either back to Zonta or a walk. And this is stuff that Nicola has sent me. And I do like those. And there's always a 15 to 20 minute zone to warm up in a ten minute zone to cool down on the end. Right. Do you think that that is helpful? I think it's to development.

I think it's fine in the broader context of developing you as an athlete and as a runner. But with respect to this event, I don't know that doing tempo runs at this point three weeks out is going to is going to benefit you in any meaningful way. And in fact, it could just wear you out and make you tired. And I don't want you tired going into this.

Yeah. So there's that aspect to it. Let's spend a few minutes talking about food and feeling strategies. I think David's advice is solid and very good in that before you run, you want to be in taking calories that are easily metabolized and are not going to cause stomach upset or require all your blood to go in your gut when you have to go out and run. That would be bad. You get that food coma and you get lethargic and it's very difficult to move.

So smoothies in the period leading up to a run and then getting, you know, more bulk calories maybe thirty minutes after you finish your run, I think is a good strategy. And I also like what he said, and I believe this wholeheartedly, that when you're fueling your all, you're not fueling for that next four miles. You're fueling for a four mile interval that's coming six hours later. You're always thinking about getting ahead on your nutrition when you're going to be you're looking at forty eight miles of running.

So chances are you're going to be running a caloric deficit no matter what. No matter how many calories you put in, you're probably going to end up burning more than you eat. Maybe not depending upon the athlete, but given that you want to be ahead on your calories. So it's not about that form. Like I just said, I'm repeating myself, but this is the point that I want to make. The instinct will occur like I'm not hungry.

I feel good. Like I feel like I don't want to feel heavy when I go on and do this for a mile, run all this, eat later or I'll just I'll bag that smoothie or that like rice bowl or whatever it is, and I'll just do it, you know, after the next one. That happens to me because I do I don't like to feel weighed down. The problem is then, you know, for two more intervals down the line, you're going to you're going to bonk out because you didn't fuel properly all along.

So you want to test this in your training and figure out everybody's different, like, you know, what is the the right caloric intake for me that won't upset my stomach, that will fuel me and allow me to feel good and won't weigh me down that I can metabolize because everybody's a little bit different with this. And then also paying attention to your electrolyte balance, like, what products are you going to be using? Are you going to be using like a like a performance calorie drink like you can, something that's like a carbohydrate based drink that you can take calories in while you're running?

Are you going to be taking in electrolytes? What does that look like? Is there a product in mind that you have for that? Like all of these things, you should test because some people, they drink Gatorade and they're throwing up, or are they going to have no problem with that? I think coconut water is good. Like I like coconut water. I've started using this product element. They've sponsored the podcast. So they sent me a bunch of the stuff.

And that seems to work really well as an electrolyte during the powder that you put in your in your water. It doesn't it's a lot of those electrolyte products are super sweet.

There's too much sugar in them that causes stomach upset. This doesn't have that. It works really well for me. I can give you some of those samples, but you might want to check that out, OK? And I just know for myself. You know, when you're cycling, like doing ultra training and or racing, you can it's easier to it's easier to take in calories. You're sitting down. It's a different posture, running very hard. Right.

But there are products that are very calorically dense in in liquid form that you could start to experiment with. Like I mentioned, you can as one Carbonaro like, these products are pretty good for that. It's a maltodextrin product. Sorry.

When I was doing the 10 or 11 mile runs more regularly, like in the hills, I would bring like a lemon water, maple syrup based kind of thing that I'd make myself.

Oh yeah. Yeah. I think this is good.

So I'm not going to do that. I guess you're saying. No, I would I would start I would get a couple of different products and try them out and see what suits you element and I can help you with that. Yeah, but Elliman. And you can would be to that I would suggest. OK, for that.

What about smoothies like before or.

I think that's good. You know, I think you should you know, if you had and again it goes back to what's going to upset your stomach, like if you have a green smoothie that's to green, your body might revolt. You know, chances are you're going to get some diarrhea. That just kind of happens with this sort of thing. Right. But you got to figure out what works for you. But I would you know, I would I would suggest foods that are nourishing and easy on the stomach and calorically dense, like I would have baked sweet potatoes, which are kind of like nature's gels, like you can chew on them.

They go down really easy. Bananas are great.

I mean, just your average you know, Yukon potato is pretty good as well, cooking some of those things, almond, almond butter, you know, almond butter and butter, you know, stuff like that.

Avocados work well, too.

These are my favorite foods. So you asked me the question. When I'm looking to learn about myself, I'm like, why are you doing this?

I feel like a couple of things come to mind. One is my feet are not great. Like I have orthotics. I still have a mild plantar fasciitis. In my left foot, I, I had an ankle sprain, high ankle sprain. I took a week off and then got back to running. I I've taken this year and especially since she was born and looking at how injuries affect me in a very different way than I had for a long time.

When I first had a a foot like I hadn't run. I had a bad case of plantar fasciitis in 2012. Yeah. 2012. And I could barely walk like I was walking like an eighty year old man after a six mile hike, you know, it was like it was really kind of scared me. I'm like, how, how bad is this. And gradually so I stopped running completely and then I found, you know, my swimming became my main thing, but it never really had the it was zone zero, like you said.

Yeah. The way I was doing it.

So I got back into running. Actually, my wife, when we first started hanging out, she got me back into running. And I was surprised I was able to do it because I was worried about my feet. And then I ended up having a tendinitis and broke a bone in my left foot after a run and didn't realize it and walked on and like, had to go to Argentina for work and was walking on it for like a month.

And by the time I got back, it was so bad that, like, it quiet, required pity, and it required these orthotics and but gradually from a treadmill, from from a treadmill to travel, I was able to start running again. And it was Atila that got me running on the street again off a treadmill.

And so that's kind of recent history had me always really worried about my foot.

If if it hurt at all, I take two days off, you know, like, I was very much babying it.

And then just like.

No, knowing what David goes through with his body and it doesn't stop him talking to you. You know, you don't get stopped by much. So I just have taken a different view on it. And so, yeah, when I've sprained my ankle was a bad sprain, like I knew it right when it happened. It was a terrible sprain. I've had a million times because I play basketball my whole life and and I was like, fuck, you know, I'm right when I'm getting back in shape after the baby came like, no way, no way am I going to stop running because of this ankle I gave myself.

Like, I didn't even take a day off. I was in the water swimming the next day and I took a week off running and I went back to it, taped it up, just just started doing it. And so I'm kind of I'm kind of interested to see if I can pull this off with two wheels that aren't top, you know, at my age. And and so I'm interested.

So here's here's what's interesting about what you just said. Yeah. I asked you, what is it? Why are you doing this and what is it that you want to learn? And then you just recounted your history of injuries and and your tenuous relationship with endurance sports. But what you didn't do is tell me what it is that you're seeking to learn about yourself. Like you made a general statement. Right. I want to see if I could do it, of course.

But that's on the surface level. What I'm saying is you have an opportunity here. You're going to go deep into the hole. At some point, you're going to have moments where you're going to want to quit. It's going to be dark. You're going to be tired. So what is it about this that you're drawn to? And how can you look at this as a lever for growth in some area of your life? Because I want you going into this challenge thinking about some blind spot in your life or some aspect of how you're living that perhaps isn't working in the way that you would like it to, because you can problem solve here.

You're going to you're going to go through something very difficult. You're going to come out the other side of it. I have full confidence that you're going to be able to do it. But what's most critical is how you evolve and grow as a result of this. And what is it that you can learn about yourself?

And I'm not saying that you should have an answer to that, but I think you should be asking yourself those questions, because this is the gift that keeps giving with endurance challenges.

They are this love for personal growth.

And I think to just do it and say, well, that was fun and cool, that's fine. But you're missing the broader opportunity to to do a little bit of personal inventory here.

And all of that solitary time in the training and in the participation of the event itself gives you that space that you just don't get as a young dad with the baby when life is kind of coming at you really quickly. So understand that alone is a gift.

And then what you make of that experience, how it sets in motion some level of momentum or create some type of foundation upon which you can build, I think is really, you know, the blessing of these types of of adventures. Interesting.

Yeah. I guess I don't have a deeper meaning answer just yet, you know, I just I don't I mean, I was looking at it as just, you know, I like to do it. I like to I feel like I get some power out of accomplishing something like this, you know, a 50 mile run. Basically, I was thinking of actually adding point one eight or whatever to every run to make it. And even let's just do this and get through it like you're going to you're going to make it more difficult early on.

And then you jeopardies like capsizing the whole shootist you for. Just do it. Yeah.

And if if that's the end of 48 miles, you're still like, I feel awesome, then go do another four miles. But don't make it unnecessarily difficult early.

OK, I'll stick with this. Look, I feel pretty good like I keep things pretty simple in my life from a from an emotional standpoint. Like I don't try to, I don't try to overanalyze my life. I really don't I don't try to be optimal in any way. Like, I'm not trying to optimize things like that's not how I live. Yeah. So I get that.

I'm not I'm not encouraging you to do that. No, no, no. But I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't really because of that, maybe I'm not as introspective in some areas where maybe other people might be more introspective because I just don't feel like it helps me in my life. Like I like keeping it pretty simple, like kind of in a Daoist way, like keeping it balanced, keeping it simple, trying to enjoy the beauty of the world and take one step at a time.

And that's how I approach basically everything I try to do. And but that does come as a cost of introspection, like when you're taking it from a Daoist perspective of like, you know, chop wood, carry water, there's not like chop wood, carry water and then tell us what you think about that.

Right. And from that perspective, that is the more enlightened path. Yeah, right. Like, I'm doing it for the sake of doing it. And I'm so immersed and present in the doing of it that it doesn't have to mean anything more than that. I'm only and I get that. And I think there's there's tremendous beauty in that. I'm merely suggesting that that accomplishing these sorts of things will undoubtedly leave you with an elevated sense of self efficacy and a sense of personal possibility in your life.

Yeah. And then the question becomes, well, how do you channel that newly energized Adam Skolnick? Like in what direction should you you know, should should you aim this, like, newfound sense of what you're personally capable of?

Yeah, that's a good question. My wife's answer will be he'll buy us a house.

He won't be afraid to buy the house. Yeah, you won't be afraid. I won't be afraid to pull it so.

Well, we could unpack that a little bit.

I mean, so basically she's saying you could buy a house, but you're afraid. Well, there was a fear. What does that fear about? It were a couple of opportunities, I guess. I mean, I've been I've been slogging away at this at this job for a long time as a reporter, a freelance journalist and a writer. And and more recently, because of. Can't hurt me. Did did. Better than I ever thought I would financially, and I mean, at 40, I was wondering what was like like this whole career, like it could evaporate in 10 years or less, and I could end up being really wondering what I'm going to do.

Obviously, I got through that before. Can't hurt me. But then, you know, this has come with a windfall and with that came, you know, some tax bills and all that. And so you end up looking at this account and you have already put out all this money that you didn't get anything for because it's taxes, because that's the way it goes. And then also put out a down payment. It just like was a lot to go out the door.

And so I was like, can I just enjoy, like a year where I'm not I never have to think about anything I buy. And I think it's like a little bit of just having lived through hand-to-mouth for, you know, doing this job for 20 years.

So there's a little bit of trauma. There's a little. Yeah, yeah. A little bit of trauma because your history. Yeah.

And perhaps it might be worth examining whether or not you have some fear of largesse like a discomfort. Well, there's no there's no question about what you know, it's like, oh, this windfall, it was a one time thing.

It's never going to happen again. So I better hold on to this very tightly and not let it go because I'm not deserving of it happening again or this this is you know what I mean?

Yeah, I would say more like this is great because this the I think these are the questions that you should be ruminating on when, you know, it's 3:00 in the morning and you're you're, you know, out in the dark.

Well, I wasn't even thinking about, like, do I feel like I'm worthy? It's more like although that's the deeper underlying meaning when you're afraid, like knowing I could I could come up with all the logical reasons, like, you know, Mark Twain had declared bankruptcy when he was basically after he wrote these great books. I mean, you know, like I could Herman Melville ended up working at the customs office after he wrote Moby Dick. You know, like I could come I could give you a hundred reasons why it's a bad career decision to become a writer long term.

And a lot of them are financial. I wasn't thinking of it, as am I worthy, although that's probably the underlying thing. But what I was thinking about is I've never been comfortable. Like, I've never I've never thought like living in the best house on the block was cool. Like I've never thought like I've never wanted to live in the best building. Like I for some reason I've just never wanted that for myself. And I think it's because there is something there about wealth and the way I see myself.

And I think there's definitely some some cobwebs there.

Yeah. I mean, it's it's not about like having the best thing. And I know you well enough to know that, you know, your perspective on on on the material world is rooted in, you know, a very heartfelt desire to see everybody flourish. Like you have a sensitivity to the underprivileged. That I think is is a beautiful thing. And that's where you're that's where your kind of focus lies. But it's also OK to, you know, live your life and enjoy it.

Yeah, right. Yeah. And to the extent that you're like you don't want I'm not saying you're martyring yourself or anything like that, but is there some guilt attached to the fact that suddenly you had some success that you didn't expect and does that create? Some weird new emotions for you. I mean, clearly, you know, if April's you know, like she she might be seeing a version of you that you can't see. Right. And so, you know, I don't have the answers to any of that.

But I just think those are interesting questions to ask yourself and think about. I like that. Yeah, this is great.

So I'm excited for you. You'll report back. Yes.

And we'll see how well, I'll report on my on some of my next time.

It'll be assim before we even do the right and we'll sort that out. Yeah. Sort of the same. All right.

Well let's take a quick break and we'll be back with lots of cool stuff to talk about, including listener questions and more.

We'll be back in a sec, but first, we're brought to you today by a key way to keep your fitness performance and overall well-being on point.

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Yeah, I need to be tracked more. Exactly. You do, right?

Yes. Do you know what a woop is? I do. There's more on my desk that I have not. Oh, you have one. I have a hoop that I haven't, you know, put into performance.

Yeah. Good Lord. What are you waiting for? This is the Next Generation Physical Insight Fitness Tracker, an app you have been waiting for. It's a colorful band thing you see on my wrist. If you're watching this on YouTube, I get a lot of questions about it. People wonder why I'm wearing two watches. I am not wearing two watches. The measure is a panel of biomarkers, things like heart rate variability, resting heart rate sleep performance, including the number of hours spent in each phase of sleep, like how much REM sleep I got, how much deep sleep.

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So I think this could actually be a really great tool for you. Yes. Going into this challenge also to track how you're dealing with the sleep deprivation, like you can look at her variability and go, wow, I actually feel OK on two hours of sleep, but my body is telling me something different, right? They're just valuable inputs.

I know that was why I had to learn it, because I need to sleep. Was going to get out because I got it. I didn't want a bad score.

I didn't want more. Like, it's better to not know. I don't want to know where I'm falling short.

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Of course. What a preposterous question. Why even ask me that?

Here's the problem. Most multivitamins contain a bunch of terrible artificial nonsense that I don't think either of us want any part of even. And this might be news to you. Some of them have animal byproducts like sheep's wool and gelatin that's made from hooves and hides. It's gross, right? It is gross. Yeah.

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Hmm. I've been consistently enjoying ritual for about three months at this point. They sent me a bunch of samples. When you open up the jar and you smell it, has this nice minty fresh smell and the capsules are all clear and you see these little yellow like little nodules in there, it's very aesthetically pleasing. It makes you feel like the smell.

It makes you feel like your feels fresh and you in like April 26th, ritual of multivitamin. Oh, she does. She does.

She you know, the you know the whole thing here. She you're way ahead of me. Well she takes them OK. They have a women's formula and she's. Yeah. So we've got to get you the men's formula.

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Business completed. Back to the show. All right, we're back. Before we get into a new segment, we're calling The Buzz, is that what we're calling it was the big story? Well, the big story, we didn't we're not doing a big story this week. We're doing a shorter thing. We'll call the buzz.

Right. I like that. Yeah. I'm tired of the big story, the big stories draining.

It really is. As you might have imagined, we've pivoted away from politics today. There's a good reason for that. We're all fatigued of that. You want to get back into the heart of the kind of stuff that I love to talk about. So this is fun. Before we get into the buzz, though, I do want to mention for people that are watching on on YouTube, they can see this. I'm wearing my legion legion of Los Angeles t shirt today.

Yeah, that's Justin Williams. Justin Williams is cycling team. He was a great guest on the podcast. And I ran into him yesterday.

I was I was headed over to the studio here Sunday, late afternoon to put a couple final touches on the Adam Grant podcast, which is up now. And I spotted him riding in his red, white and blue Legian kit, pulled over, chatted with him. He was all fired up. He's got all kinds of good things going on with the team. He's very grateful for for the podcast and all the people that reached out to him as a result of his appearance here.

And it was a reminder that I'd gotten this T-shirt and I wanted to rock it. It's a great show. I think what he's doing is really cool. So if you go to his Instagram, if you dig the T-shirt and you want to support his team and what he's doing in the community of cycling, probably the best place to go to his is Instagram.

And you can buy it. You can you can contribute. He's got some swag and gear and stuff like that.

I'm going to buy one of those T-shirts shirts. I love it. That was kind of show and tell. We have more show and tell to do. We do anyway. Get into it. The buzz, the buzz. What are we buzzing? We're buzzing about clubhouse.

The future of audio. This is a is it, though?

Well, that's what we're wondering about the pros and cons of using it. So clubhouse is this new social media platform.

It was it's kind of like this thing where you go into different you know, you become a member, you get an invitation, you enter this house. And in this house are an infinite number of rooms and each room has its own kind of topic or moderator going on. And you can wander into the rooms and hear these interesting discussions.

It is to me, it's kind of part user generated talk show platform, part like salons of the digital age. You know, those salons seem like Gertrude Stein's Paris salon is probably the best known version of it, Hemingway and Fitzgerald and all those great writers. This is for everyone to have a salon.

So the it was a tiny San Francisco startup with about a dozen employees founded by two entrepreneurs, Paul Davidson and Ron Seth.

And basically, I think.

One of them is, I think, what is it, they both went to Stanford, Davidson and created some social networking access apps, including HIGHLIGHT, which allowed users to see and message people nearby.

Seth was a Google engineer and co-founded a company called Memory Labs, which built apps. So they had this experience in the app space and they were kind of pin balling around trying to find something. And this is the one that has taken off. And they've raised 100 million dollars in the last month. And it's now believe Andreessen Horowitz led that funding round. I know they're they're pretty heavily invested in that right platform and it's now valued at a billion dollars.

And this thing just came out of nowhere, like I heard about it for the first time a couple of months ago. What did you were the first?

I was very early in, yeah. Yeah. I got invited into the clubhouse at the very maybe not at the very inception, but very early on. I think there were only like a thousand people on the platform at the time that I got invited on. When was that. It was it was a while ago. Like, I don't I can't remember. A year ago. No, maybe not that long ago.

Maybe a year ago. I'm not quite sure. Maybe nine, nine, ten months ago, I'm not sure.

So 10 months ago, there were some people on it and now it's barely anybody on it. And I've dropped in and listen to conversations from time to time. I can't say I'm like a power user. It's interesting. Like now everybody's talking about clubhouse. I think a big part of that is because Elon Musk was in a room the other day with the CEO of Robin Hood. And that was a big, kind of like pivotal moment in the evolution of this platform that introduced it to a lot of people.

And because it was around, it's like I never but I've never done a conversation there. I've got like a bunch of followers there.

But I'm not I never used it, really, but I, I kind of check in on it from time to time. And I've been thinking about what this platform means and what it presents. And I do think there's something interesting about that salon aspect. Yes. And having conversations that aren't just to people, but there's a variety of people that can chime in because you can quietly sit in the back and listen or you can participate. And sometimes there's like 12 or 15 people that are all kind of like jockeying to have their point heard in these in these rooms, in these specific rooms.

It's sort of like eavesdropping on a party line or something like that because it's happening in real time. These conversations are recorded call. They're not recorded unless somebody is, you know, recording them, using something else, but they're not intended to be recorded. So it's an ephemeral kind of thing.

And I think. Right, like an event like this.

So that spontaneity, I think, you know, contributes to a different kind of conversation than maybe you would have on a podcast where there's cameras and lights and. Right. A little bit of fanfare around it.

Historically, my sense of clubhouse is that there's been two camps that have grown there. One is is very much a Silicon Valley, perhaps, you know, Brosque philosopher kind of ecosystem where there's a lot of conversations about the future of tech and it perhaps has a little bit of a libertarian bent to it. And there's some controversy surrounding particular aspects of those conversations. Yeah. And at the same time, there's also a very robust community comprised of people of color having interesting conversations about diversity and the future of the workplace.

And now I think it's mainstreaming a little bit as more and more people are finding out about it and more and more people are onboarding on to it. And I thought a lot about like my own personal relationship to this platform and whether or not I want to make use of it. And I think there's something interesting to be explored there. Like I'm not averse to having a conversation with an interesting person on clubhouse or participating in one of these these broader talks.

And I think it could be an opportunity to expose this podcast to an audience of people who perhaps are not familiar with it. So there is a growth potential there, I think.

But at the same time, you know, I already do that here. This is where I want the focus of my, you know, my audio content to live. And I think to jump on to clubhouse and participate in conversations there is really contributing to the growth of that platform. And I'm more interested in growing my own audience and perhaps even not perhaps, but definitely my own platform outside of these social media apps. Yeah, we're going to be launching and I've mentioned this in the past, a portal, a membership portal for people that are like super fans where we're going to have exclusive content and a lot more connectivity and interaction with myself and other people.

We're working on that. We're going to be launching a pilot sort of beta version of that. Pretty soon, and I've got a lot more to share about that on on future episodes, so I guess I think it's super interesting and it will be fascinating to see how this develops and grows over time, especially since, like, Facebook's already got tearooms thing on it.

Yes, they can easily copy this thing and launch the go the way that you're going to see that pretty soon. I think that's inevitable.

Yeah, you're seeing on clubhouse people who are doing these daily talk shows or weekly shows.

I think that's cool. That is a version of podcasting that's unique and its own thing. But I think like podcasting, people are going to find out that it's going to be a grind. Right. So who's going to who's going to really develop an audience and stick to it and be willing to do the kind of heavy lifting that's required to build an audience and remain consistent because the islands are going to pop in from time to time, but they're not going to be coming in weekly on the clubhouse.

So what is it that people are going to be tuning in for? And I've just noticed when I open it up, I'll see a couple of conversations going on or a schedule of conversations that are going to be going on later in the day. And I kind of go, that could be interesting. But like, I'd rather listen to this podcast where I kind of already know what's going to happen there and and there'll be some forethought that goes into how that conversation is going to play out.

So I've listened in the background on some of these conversations and some of them have been cool. But I don't know. I don't think I'm going to be a power user on clubhouse.

No. And then there's also the aspect of at some point this kind of haze, covid haze will all be lifted and we'll get back to normal life and everyone's going to want to go to a real salon, you know? Yeah, that's true. We're going to be happy for that.

But but the opportunity to kind of eavesdrop on like, well, what is Elon Musk going to ask the CEO? Robin Hood is a pretty cool thing.

And I think we're also going to see this platform pivot to a subscription based model or a premium event platform where it's like, oh, you know, so-and-so is going to talk to so-and-so, so reserve your spot for seven bucks or whatever it is.

Yeah, I think I think that should be the case. Like, if somebody is going to have like a really cool thing happening, they're the creators of that or the participants in that should be remunerated.

Yeah, well, I mean, you're pointing to the thing that we talked about when we were talking about the social dilemma.

Right, in that what's the purpose of this platform?

The purpose of the platform is not to get you into the room with the purpose of the platform is to create a unicorn, is to make a lot about a billion dollar valuation. And so everyone is going there. They might think they're getting an experience, but really they're giving they're giving power.

There is a product. Of course, there's a problem. That doesn't mean that that that isn't value. And it doesn't. It doesn't. And I'm not. And I even you know, that's entrepreneurship.

It's fine. But I do think, like that has colored the way I look at all these platforms. And how do you want to make your how do you want to spend your time? Yeah. And I feel like I spend enough time on my phone, probably more than enough. So personally, I am I was invited. I'm I am I have it on my phone. I open it once, like at 8:00 in the morning just to browse like a while, like I was lying on the couch, like maybe even in bed or something like that.

And two people want to talk to me. I'm like, wait a second. I got I got out of there quick. That happened to me too. I opened it up and there was some conversation going on around plant based nutrition. So I thought, oh, this will be cool.

But it was immediately noticed that I had like that I was in the background or whatever, and and I got a ping like join the conversation. And it was the same thing. I was like, I could have been in the bathroom, like, I don't know what I was doing, but I was certainly not prepared to, like, you know, join in. Hey, Red. Wait, wait. Why did I so I had like a little panic moment and I, like, logged out.

I was like, I might live on this thing.

I don't even know what's going on. Yes, yes, yes. So beware when you first try to enter what might happen.

So at the same time, another reason why clubhouse is very much in the news and on the on everybody's tongues and lips at the moment is because they're trying to figure out what content moderation looks like, you know, in this broader conversation around content, moderation on Twitter and Facebook, et cetera, there doesn't seem to be any effort or or infrastructure around that with respect to clubhouse at the time, I think it's really interesting.

Like like how does that work?

Like, what is the you know, what is the what is the, you know, value proposition around content, moderation on a platform where conversations are happening live and in real time and are not being archived or recorded like are you?

You know, certainly if we've learned anything over the past year that, you know, we. You need to be thinking about this problem, but I just don't know how you implement any kind of solution on a platform like clubhouse. Not that not to say that you can't.

And I think even more broadly, there's conversations happening right now about content moderation in the podcast ecosystem.

Yes. Well, yes. Which, you know, I just I can't imagine how you even approach that issue.

Why? Because I don't think people really get like like if I look at my Apple podcast feed and I see the way people frame their shows and not everyone frames them. We've talked about this before. Not everyone comes correct with how that what their show really is. Why is it hard for these big platforms like Apple and Spotify and others to moderate?

Well, first of all, there's two million podcasts. There's something like seventeen thousand new podcasts that are being created every week, I think. And the number of hours that's getting on board at every minute is insane. And in order to do any kind of content moderation, you can't just look at a Facebook post.

You have to actually listen to what people are saying. And then you have to place you can't even just transcribe it and really fully understand, because it all has to be placed in the greater context of whatever conversation is happening.

Yeah, there's going to be, you know, margin cases on the outskirts where maybe that's easy. Like if somebody is basically saying, you know, like fomenting insurrection and saying we have to kill, you know, these people or something like that, where you could, you know, immediately identify that there's a problem here. But other than that, like podcasting is all about like a nuanced conversation and it's often about controversial or difficult topics. And I'm a believer in exploring difficult ideas in long form as a way of stress, testing my own views on things, but also as a service to humanity to get them to think about how strongly they hold their own beliefs.

And so I think you need some. Some. Flexibility or kind of a broadness in that regard. So there's the logistical, technical aspect of how you would, you know, police, for lack of a better term, content, moderate, so much content.

I don't know that EHI is capable of that. Right. And you'd have to build.

So you'd have to have millions of human beings. And also some things live like how long is it going to take you to.

I just don't I don't see how well you could do it within a show, but could you do it within like what the show is about. Like kind of like also is it is this something we should be doing right at all?

Right. I think that's a question we need to ask.

You know, should we air on the side? I mean, it's like a speech or not.

And on the logistical aspect of it as well, it's not like Facebook or Twitter where there's one platform, there's a whole stack of providers in the way that, you know, they're AWB is the cloud support to these social media platforms with podcasting. It's not just Apple and Spotify. It's it's all the hosting platforms like we host on a cast. There's Lip-Synch, there's pod being, there's blueberry. There's a million of these little companies.

So which are like, where are we doing content moderation? Are we are we doing it at the level of Apple and Spotify or are we doing it at the level of these hosting companies? Right. And what incentive do they like? A lot of them are small companies. They have teams of 10 or 20 people or something like these, not companies.

You're set up to be able to do this. They're like the version of Web hosting for podcasts, essentially.

Yeah, like that's where the actual, like, audio file rests. And then you have this thing called an RSS feed, which is basically a way of syndicating your content across the Internet.

So by definition, it's an open structure which makes it different and infinitely more complicated than these social media sites.

You know, what's funny is that when the Internet was born, its openness, the idea of open source and open everything and it's a free for all was kind of seen as it will it will end up being. It's like evolution. It will be a good the end product will just automatically be good. And now we have we're in this kind of dark middle phase where it's turning out.

We're in our early adolescence.

We're not sure that that will turn out there, stumbling around in the dark, which are of problems that humanity has never had to face before, which makes it really difficult.

But moderation and censorship, it's like they're there. It's kind of a fine line, right. Between between the two things like.

And then you can't like we didn't talk about this before, but this is a good time to talk about it, like the everyone is so prone to outrage right now that, like anything said now, might be construed in a way that five years from now we look back and laugh at or five years ago, we would think, what? Why are people outraged about that? You had you posted you and you went on a hike with Alexi Pappas and you posted yourself at the top having fun with masks on and what happened?

Yeah, so that was interesting. Alexi Pappas and I hooked up for a hike the other day. We had a great time, super fun. And we're like, oh, let's take a picture, you know, when we're at the top of this little climb and and we had masks, so we took the picture, posted it. And a lot of look, to be fair, a lot of people were like, oh, that's so cool.

You guys talked about, like, you know, getting out for a run together and you actually did it.

But there were a lot of people who were very angry that we were wearing masks in the great outdoors and people, you know, hurling epithets at me and saying that I thought you were about wellness and you should be, you know, drinking in the biosphere. And you don't need to be wearing masks outside. And you've bought into the great hype and you're all very.

But it was it was less like, all right, fine. There's there's a.. Mask people. And there's people who have strongly held beliefs about the efficacy of wearing masks. But it was more of the tone, like the vitriol of the whole thing that really bummed me out.

It was it was disappointing that so many people felt so strongly about that when I was like just trying to share a fun picture of Alexi. And I hike. And I guarantee you that had we taken the photo with masks off, it would have been the same thing, just a mirror image of that, you know, and and I think it speaks to that level of, you know, outrage that we're seeing in general.

Yes.

Moments and where people are more focused on stuff outside themselves on this little screen than what than their own self. And even better, like now it's more important to it's more important what you say or how you said it than what you do and how you live your life. In a way, it's like the perception has shifted, you know, like like you can be misconstrued so easily. And and then there's also the thing is a lot of those people who are making comments on what to do with a mask or not.

They're not necessarily qualified to make this comment on it's like, listen, you know, I'm not virtue signalling because I'm afraid of losing followers or anything.

But I do think, like, it's better to, like, put a picture up where we're being safe than on the other side of it. But that's really all the thought that went into it, you know? Well, I think it's OK to be safe, you know.

And then at the same time, people I was wearing my on my on running shoes. So then there were people who are like, well, I guess, you know, Tony Riddel in the minimalist thing didn't didn't stick with you. You abandon it already like the Viva Barefoot.

Oh, it's like I wear vivos, I wear Onse. We're all different kinds of stuff. Like I'm trying different things all the time.

On this day I happen to be wearing my running shoes like it's really nothing more than that.

You can't. Well, listen, you and it just makes me think, why am I even posting on these social sites? Like, I don't it makes me really disinterested in engaging on those platforms at all.

Is that right?

And it's more reason to create my own platform where the people are interested in what I'm doing, want to, you know, participate and, you know, be connected to the work that I'm doing. Interesting.

Like, you know, what's the what's the benefit?

Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, there is a benefit for you to build the podcast through that platform since you put so much effort into building your your kind of.

I mean, there they have a utility in that regard.

But at some point it's like if I can't post a picture of me and a friend out on a hike without it being controversial, then it's just weird time where people are so like it's they're like they're like hair triggered to fucking launch because of we endlessness.

We're, you know, to to take a cue from from Adam Grant and all of the amazing work that that he's doing. And that's how he speaks about the way it's unbelievable how he how he thinks about, you know, engaging with people.

It's like people, you know, how can I how can I look at that particular instance from a perspective of curiosity and empathy? And like, people are having a hard time.

We're all stuck at home. Yeah, maybe. You know, there are there's snowstorms everywhere at the moment. And it looks like a nice day in Los Angeles. And I'm out with a friend. And that made somebody angry and they lash out because they're having a hard time or they got laid off or has nothing to do with me know.

So the more that I can inhabit that space, it doesn't it doesn't bother.

I think I just want to see a pretty face rich. And they were really pissed off that I don't know what if someone called it a face diaper on your on your face diaper?

I haven't heard that one. Anyway, moving on.

Moving on. Show and tell. Let's do it. All right. I've got something. I'll be right back. Oh, you're going to go get something. While you do that, I'll share one thing that I have right now, which is this mug.

If you're watching on YouTube, you can you're probably been looking at this red mug thinking like, that's cool.

What is that?

So I had the wonderful Steven Pressfield on the podcast the other day. People will know him as the author of The War of Art and Turning Pro. He's had a huge influence on me as a creative person, perhaps the most influence of anybody that I had never previously met. And it was a super honor to have him on the show. We had a great conversation. I'll be sharing that soon.

But he came bearing gifts and he brought me this mug, which was made by this artisan Potter called called Joel Chako.

And essentially what it is, it's called a Cathan and it's inspired by the ancient Spartan warriors who fought in the Battle of Thermopylae like 2500 years ago, which is a subject matter that Steven writes about and in in some of his military novels. And he kind of discharged this potter to craft this Cathan this drinking cup, which was valued for its use on military campaigns with the Spartans. Nobody knows exactly what they look like specifically, but Stephen challenged this Potter to come up with the design based upon historical records.

And this is what he came up with. And I absolutely love it.

So you're drinking your coffee out of a Spartan chalice? I am, yes. Apparently, these were the one hundred like that great movie. Yeah, right.

Well, the Battle of Thermopylae was 300 300. Right. It's basically the same thing.

Yeah. And this cup was so the way it goes, the way it's written here, visibly off-putting elements in stream or river water which had to be drunk, were concealed by its color while the dirt in the liquid was trapped in the lip so that it reached the mouth. So whatever reach the mouth was was cleaner.

I guess that's the design of the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. Essentially 2500 years ago. And it has this, this cool seal on it, which is like the Spartan SEAL I was wondering about.

I just thought it was great. They're beautifully rendered and I wanted to shout out Joel Jeriko for his work. So if you guys want to learn more about his pottery, go to church, go pottery at our Icko Pottery dotcom and get your own mug. I suppose so. Thank you, Stephen. And thank you, Joel, for the gift.

And you have some shoes on as well. Oh, yeah, I do.

So back to Aleksi, so on. Aleksi came on the podcast. She was wearing these shoes called Atreyu that I that I didn't know about.

She's now sponsored by this running company. And I thought, those are really cool. They're unique. I hadn't ever seen shoes like that before. So I look them up on the Internet and I bought a pair to check them out. And what I learned was pretty cool. So I'm wearing them right now.

They're kind of dopey looking, right?

Are they're pretty minimal. It's like on the inside it says fear, fear, only regret.

Each one of their models has like a different little school, the inside of them like that.

But what's unique about this particular brand is this subscription model that they have. And the shoes are incredibly affordable, like you can buy a one off shoe for 75 bucks. But if you go on a subscription, there are 55 dollars and they come to you. You can set how often they send you new pairs, like two months. I think it's the suggested interval because these are very kind of like lightweight. If you're running a lot, they're going to wear out more quickly.

Year, you're saying 75 bucks for one pair if you buy a single pair and a typical pair of running shoes is like ninety five to one hundred and ten dollars or something like that. Yeah. Fifty five dollars for a shoe like that's super affordable. Yeah. And they come with a return shipping label. So when you get your new pair you send the old one back and they upcycling them and donate them to people who need shoes, which I think is really cool.

On top of the fact that the company was founded by this guy, Michael Krajicek, who's sober dude who has its roots in the music and restaurant industry, and they're there in Austin. Yeah, I think he's in Austin.

Anyway, I thought it was cool. They're not they don't sponsor the podcast or anything like that. But I saw it was a cool brand and and I wouldn't have found out about it except for Alexa, because she was wearing them.

She was rocking them now. So anyway, that's what I'm wearing to go Alexa.

That's my big I like Alexi's good pain analogy.

She's full of of little nuggets of wisdom. Yeah. So I shared the the the the clip of her talking about the rule of thirds.

Oh people just love that. It's amazing. Yeah.

I just downloaded her book so we haven't commented on the fact that you're wearing a moon. Right. Sorry you disappeared when I was talking about I was so into the mug and then the shoe and then you return and you're wearing like a park.

Get your shoes on. So. All right, talk and I'll go get it.

All right. So we are wearing Shackleton expedition grade parkas, I guess.

So Shackleton is this expedition grade gear company, but they also have like, I guess, performance attire that also looks good and has super high end. I think Italian made this one is a performance jacket that I'm already hot. It gets graded to minus 25 degrees Celsius.

It's basically Antarctic grade like summer in Antarctica. We could wear this and, you know, Ålesund T-shirt and those shoes and be just fine.

And it was made out of plastic recycled plastic bottles. So they developed it in partnership with an organization called the Blue Marine Foundation. And, you know, Shackleton made his name on an expedition to Antarctica. That kind of was a failed, fraught expedition. But his leadership basically saved everyone's life in this crazy period of time. They lived for for like almost a year on ice, you know, in in in sheet ice in the middle of the ocean.

And it kept everyone's, you know, sane and alive anyway. So this has been let's see, it's it's it's made from 100 percent recycled fabrics made and post consumer plastic bottles have been recycled, repurposed to create this waterproof shell so that all the fabrics are recycled and the shell is made out of the bottles and then it's filled with GhostTown. So, you know, sorry, that's not so good now, but they're not appreciator.

I they're not a sponsor. They're not. And this is a gift. I appreciate that. Yeah, it would be cool if there was no down in it. Yeah. But I appreciate the recycled plastic aspect of this.

It is is good. So it's a it is a beautiful jacket. If you're if you're going to Yellowstone in the middle of winter, this will help. I was in Yellowstone, it was like minus 20 and I had like a Patagonia jacket that was graded like thirty degrees.

So essentially there's nowhere on planet Earth that you can go in this coat and and be cold. No, I mean, except maybe at the bottom of the ocean or the top of K2.

Yeah. Right. Okay, cool. Well thank you for the gift.

I appreciate. Yeah, thanks. So that's cool talk talk to me about this on the subject of the bottom of the ocean.

Yes, this WSO we are one ocean campaign that we wanted to talk about.

The teachable moment today is sell and sell.

Puru, which is the nonprofit arm of the World Surf League, have launched a campaign to.

Get groundswell support to encourage the U.N. to help declare 30 percent of the ocean off limits to development, oil exploration, gas development, fishing, commercial fishing, not all fishing, commercial fishing by 2030. And the reason being is, well, there's a few reasons for it.

But we are in the middle of a, you know, possible mass extinction event where species are going extinct at a high level. This ocean is being acidified, the highest the highest acidification of the ocean in terms of rate there's ever been. We wish that matters because our every second breath comes from the ocean, 90 percent of the carbon dioxide that we've ever emitted winds up in the ocean. And that's the reason for the acidification. We have coral reefs that are dying.

We have, you know, kelp forests that are going away. The water temperature is higher than it's ever been. So because of all of this, we are now worried about species collapse and total systems collapse, which matters to us, you know, from a from an oxygen standpoint, from a life standpoint, from food standpoint.

And so one solution to our problems that the scientists have decided is that if you can declare 30 percent of of the ocean off limits to development in any way, protect it. That has proven to be a driver for climate resiliency, increase biodiversity. It it protects coastal areas from from erosion. And it just is protecting, you know, vulnerable species. It also ends up being helpful for commercial fisheries because it gives it provides sanctuary. Right.

The populations are more robust. Right. For nurseries bounce.

Someone's calling our line nurseries for fish populations to bounce back so that like you just said. So the cell has set up a website called We Are One Ocean Dog, and they want you to sign a petition that will go to the U.N. Convention on Biological Diversity, which is being held in China and May 20 21. And the petition is basically asking the U.N. to set this 30 by 30 standard and then let the countries decide amongst themselves. You know, each country will well take that standard and then decide how much of of the coastal waters will be preserved, how much of it will be in national waters, and then how much in international waters can be preserved.

Because some of the problem is there's overfishing in international waters where there's nobody regulating. Right. The U.S. is very good at regulating our fisheries. We actually have great fishery regulation. The I would I would argue I've looked into this for some stories and it's the best in the world, from what I can tell. And fishery management is going up in all sorts of countries around the world. But at the same time, we have fishing boats on the very edge of the Galapagos National Park.

Commercial fishing boats and sharks are getting taken and everything is getting taken right at the very edge of that.

So what does that tell us? Tells us two things.

One is NPAs work because there's a reason those fishing boats are right at the other end of NPA. Right. And some people are worried they're coming into the national park. That's a question that people are looking at. But they tell us that these kinds of things work. But eventually, you know, if you have a nursery of fish, they will go out. They need to go into the open ocean, and that's when you should be able to fish for them.

And so the other thing it tells us is that we do need to patrol this kind of thing. We need it. We need higher patrols in the areas that are marine protected areas. Now, there is organized opposition that has popped up against the whistle. Some recreational fishermen are not happy that are also surfers that pay attention to what the whistle does. And they've been pushing back on this idea of 30 by 30, partly because in California there is an effort to get 30 percent of the ocean and 30 percent of land preserved by 30 30 by 2030.

There was a ballot measure that failed, and now there's a movement in the assembly to try to get that done. And so commercial fishermen have put out talking points and are very much against that. This is not that this is not the whistle saying California needs to do X, Y or Z or even the United States. This is the U.N. Convention on Biological Diversity. Let's set this standard and then let's let the countries work together to try to figure out the best way in kind of a Paris agreement type of.

It's exactly the perfect analogy. Well, a couple of things. First of all, like leave it to the surfers. Surfers are always at the vanguard with respect to ocean preservation. So thank you for your service and.

It's certainly laudable, and when you look at it broadly, it's like, how hard can it be to, you know, our our oceans are so vast, can't we set aside 30 percent? That should be a no brainer and very easily accomplished. But I'm envisioning all of these countries getting together to try to hash out which parts are protected and which are right. And and and I could just see that being a shit show in terms of, well, it's already happened.

Right. So like in Antarctica, Lewis Pugh, the great swimmer that has swum Antarctica before. Amazing.

He he swims in the in Greenland and Antarctica or wherever he can to raise awareness of climate change. And the reason he wants mappers. There's one, I think, West Antarctica and East Antarctica. One of them has already been declared in MPLX. And what does it stand for? Marine protected area. And so in the marine protected area, you cannot some of them you can you can recreationally fish, but you can't commercially fish. You can't deep sea mine, which is a threat.

Now, you can't drill for oil and gas, that kind of stuff.

And so he was trying to get East Antarctica to become an empire. And it would be it would create the biggest marine protected area. And in the history of humanity all around Antarctica, which is always supposed to be about the betterment of the of the of the human family. Right. The world governments came together and they never fought over Antarctica. It was always seen as this place where it shouldn't be about commercial enterprise, should be about science and wellbeing.

And he went down and swam in a glacier, melts, and he did this great thing and he was trying to get the U.N. to sign on to make this happen. And China and Russia held out. And so just took one no vote basically of the Treaty of Antarctica. We weren't a member of that. It's basically whoever signed on to the Treaty of Antarctica in the early days, they were the votes on it and those to China and Russia held out.

So this isn't a slam dunk, but we do need to recognize that we have a problem in our ocean. It's so vast. Like you said, it seems like nothing can harm it. But, you know, it is suffering.

So we are one ocean. What's the website? We are one ocean dog. Right. And you can sign the petition there. There's a there's a video. There's also another length, WDR v.. Yes. It like no that was that we wanted a video, kind of like a video that was kind of presentation to journalists.

So it's kind of like it's not really wide. We are one ocean dog is the one you want. And you know, Italo Ferrara, the world champion surfer, is on board with this. A lot of major surfers are on board with this. My friend Rece Pacheco's the kind of brain behind it, a YSL pure. And, you know, on this, he gets into the CO2. Why? Why it matters that the ocean is warmer than ever.

What can we do besides CO2 emissions to significantly reduce other major stressors like overfishing and offshore oil development, blah, blah, blah? And that is setting aside. You know, big chunks of the ocean, cool, well, keep us posted, everybody check out that petition. Give it your signature. Let's do it.

And let's move on to listener questions.

Listener questions. So this one came in from Adam from Santa Monica. Oh, that's me.

I am I was going to say this, so the shouldn't have actually called in and left a voicemail and that we could play.

I should have of Adam from Santa Monica is beyond outrage.

This we talked about this one to pivot away from talking about anything political that last bit aside, because I'm just the sort of content moderation is is highly political as it is, but we're not really talking about like party politics and that kind of stuff.

We're talking about issues that that concern us all. But I'm kind of so beyond outrage.

I couldn't watch the impeachment. I don't want anything. I didn't have any more energy for it. And I was just thinking like, how do we move beyond outrage as a people? Because I've always found anger to be very powerful. It's a powerful tool. It can drive you and in productive ways. But if it stagnates, it can become bitterness, which I think we saw on your feed. Some of that and bitterness is so counterproductive. I think it fuels almost everything bad that we see that kind of bubbles to the surface here lately.

So I guess the question is, you know, how do you move beyond outrage and anger?

Yeah, I mean, isn't that the sixty four dollar question? I mean, yeah, you're mine as well. My outrage stores have been depleted and I feel incapable of it at the moment.

But, you know, I have to also recognize that that depletion of my outrage is perhaps, you know, on some level a function of of privilege, you know, because I'm not in need at the moment.

And I think we have to deconstruct this question from two perspectives, from the kind of greater social community aspects of outrage and what's fueling that and what the antidote is. And then our own individual behavior that we can take responsibility for, because I think broadly, culturally, nationally, we're not going to be able to move beyond outrage until we solve some very large problems that we face, most particularly the the wage gap, you know, we're in we're in a situation where the middle class has disappeared.

The division between the haves and the have nots have never been greater. In the midst of the pandemic, the richest people have enrich themselves beyond measure when they could have used that wealth to, you know, basically confront the coronavirus pandemic for the benefit of the less well-off. Like, there's plenty of things that the most landed gentry class in our country could have been of service to us in a way that that that we didn't see. Meanwhile, people are losing their jobs.

They're losing their health insurance. We're not seeing any any real effort regarding, like, how to resolve any of this and that that wealth gap is only going to exacerbate. And I think, you know, over the course of history, if you study history, when that gap becomes too large, the foundations upon which that culture are embedded begin to fracture and either revolution or some other force intervenes. And that's how changes in government occur. When we have so many people who are suffering at the moment, we can't begrudge them for their outrage.

Now, that outrage gets stoked by the news cycle and social media apps that that, you know, provoke that outrage and and, you know, exacerbate it to some extent. And I think we all need to be aware of the extent to which our anger gets triggered. But I'm sympathetic to people who are outraged right now because their lives are not what they should be or what they could be in this moment on an individual basis when I look at my own.

How I comport myself and how I behave and how I deal with people who are outraged or I'm in a context in which somebody is angry at me, I have to think about the conversation that I had with Adam Grant, you know, and and how he talks about and how the science, what the science reveals about how to have more productive conversations and how to ameliorate tensions. And again, and it's not like I haven't talked about this before.

It all goes back to leading with empathy, you know, entering these conversations with humility and with curiosity as opposed to a need or a desire to change somebody else's mind. If you ask somebody that's interesting, that that's how you feel or that's the way you see things. Tell me more about that or walk me through the process of how you arrived at that conclusion.

I think that's always the way in. But when you come at it aggressively, then you're in a position where you're butting heads. Nobody's mind is getting changed and you're just basically doubling down on the difference and the acrimony that lives and breathes between two different people. Yeah. Further to that.

What is the solution if you if you enter those conversations with that spirit of empathy, humility and curiosity? Well, you have to be willing to sit down for a while. Right. And that's where I think long form conversations come in. That's why I believe in podcasting so much as an antidote to all of this, you know, podcasting. Because of the open nature source of it, the fact that it's an RSS feed and and that it's not about click bait titles and and, you know, trying to, you know, game the system, not that the system doesn't get gamed in other ways, but there's something unique about it.

There is no like podcasting suffers from a discoverability problem. Unlike YouTube or other things like you, it's difficult to find new stuff and it's difficult to kind of game. You can't do it with a click bait title, right. So I believe that the best stuff eventually rises to the top. And my hope and my belief is that, you know, these types of long form conversations are what people need right now and we crave it. Nobody wants to live in a place of fear, anger and acrimony, as familiar as it might feel right now.

And I think that's a reason why people are cottoning on to these long form podcasts, because there is it is a salve to that in some regard.

Yeah. And I think, you know. There's also individually we have to kind of salve our own wounds as well at the same time, because outrage, you can't run on outrage no matter what. Not a sustainable fuel source. It's just not a matter where you are in the world. And and you know you know how how rightfully outraged you may be. You got to you got to figure out a way to feed yourself some other way, you know, to some.

From some other. Inspiration, because really the only solutions, like you said, are some structural changes, some some changes for us to, like, figure out a way to live to to live better together. It's unity really is the right.

And recognizing that not everybody, you know, is on the same starting line that so many of us, myself included, you know, had tremendous advantages.

And we have to we have to reckon with that and we've got to, you know, create social systems that provide greater opportunity for people that, you know, aren't didn't, you know, weren't blessed with what I was blessed with, you know, growing up. And we need to address that.

We need to address the you know, the the wealth inequality. That's there's so many problems. Right. So I guess what I'm saying is, is, you know, how do it's not a simple matter of like just comport yourself better.

Like we have systemic problems that we have to solve. And and so to be outraged at the outrage is not the solution either.

No, but, you know, I guess the biggest problem with the outrage level that we have to me is it's not that outrage is not a path towards solving those problems, but ultimately, you know, it's understandable.

It's an understandable reaction. But ultimately, it's not a path to solution.

It might be a path to to garnering some sort of political power that can put you onto the path of actually making the change them.

So, you know. We're done with outrage for a little while, you think? Well, I don't know, you you just you speak too soon. I will not.

I'm fueled by rage, OK? It's OK. But I'm just tired of the familiar the familiar tune.

All right. Let's move over to Redondo Beach. This is out of out of the box question for you. It is a little bit. I know. How do you how do you feel about it? Well, we're going to play it first, right?

Oh, that's right. It's pretty, pretty exciting, folks. Hydrogen atom, this is not one I live in Redondo Beach, and this is OK to play on your podcast, I just have a question about romance. I recently went through a big breakup. I was living with my boyfriend and I had to make kind of a life shift. And so now I'm dating again. I've been going on the app and it's kind of hard to find someone with a similar mindset.

I've been a vegan for 11 years. I'm a long time with her podcast and my ex was an Ironman athlete. And so because of that relationship, I got really into endurance. Running and I ran my first marathon last year anyway, going through the app, swiping through, I try to look for pictures of runners, but they're just not coming up. I don't know if it's because it's L.A. and I'm getting a lot of actors or so on.

And I was just wondering if you guys had some advice on where to find these guys. It's also kind of hard with covid because I can't really, like, join a running club right now. They always thought this could be a fun question to answer in your podcast. Love the show. Thanks so much by. Wow. Well, thanks, Madeleine. It is a fun question. It is a very fun question and it brings up all kinds of emotions in me, because on the one hand, let's face it, I am a de facto relationship expert, atom by pure dint of being in a relationship for 22 years.

All I do is be in a relationship for a long time and now I'm a relationship expert. You're an expert, but is you're an expert of your relationship.

Yes, this is true. On the other hand, I have no idea how to give advice on dating. I haven't dated in decades, particularly dating advice in a pandemic or anything having to do with dating apps because I've never been on a dating app.

Were you entirely. Are you a serial dater?

No, I'm the guy who goes from relationship to relationship. I've never been able to date like multiple people at the same time. I know how people do that.

So essentially, I'm very ill equipped to help you out here. And one of my kind of core things is that I always root any advice that I give on base.

You know, based on my personal experience, I have no personal experience with dating. I was trying to date in a pandemic. No. Or having to date, you know, in any recent decade.

So no cell data with that. You know, I feel like like DKA or Davay should sit here because they know well much more about this than I do.

But I will say this, you know, obviously the instinct to connect with like minded people is a good instinct.

And that's certainly compromised in a situation in which personal personal interaction is so compromised.

And and I can say generally that that I think there's a lot of good in dating apps and helping people figure out how to connect with people that are like minded to them.

But they're not an effective stand in for what is or is not real. Like, I know I have friends that are on Rhia.

Have you ever seen Rhia know and people with Rya, they spend like tens of thousands of dollars on like like like basically the show reels to watch basically, you know, like it's crazy what goes into like creating profiles on this, on this app so that people can look is real like high end ones.

Yeah. It's like a crazy high. Yeah. You have to get invited on and all that kind of stuff.

I have a friend who's been digitally dating somebody for weeks that he had never met. They spent like countless hours on FaceTime and texting and stuff like that, and they finally met in person the other the other day.

And he was like he knew immediately that he didn't want to date her, even though he was like, enamored with this person on FaceTime for umpteen hours. The minute that he met her, he was like, yeah, this is not going to work. Wow. Which I thought was a really interesting testament to the, you know, the fallibility of digital, of of trying to interact with somebody digitally that or he needs around the four by four or 48 maybe does.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't I don't know.

I mean, you know, I think there are no running clubs right now because of the pandemic.

But what you can do is you can still go running and you can go running where people go running, even though the clubs have canceled their get together.

And you can do like digital networking in those clubs like Facebook.

Yeah, you can do all of that. You can trust in chance encounters and double down on your, you know, analog experiences.

But I also think.

Because we're being restricted from interacting with people in this moment that it's a unique opportunity to do the work on yourself, that maybe you have been reluctant to today in the sense that you reconfigure your focus rather than chasing a mate or trying to find that person that you think is going to make your life better, that'll make you feel better or fill some hole instead try to work on becoming the person that your ideal mate would want to be with.

And I think when you shift that focus in that manner, you in turn over time become like this magnet who then attracts the right person to you as opposed to being the person who's out there fishing or chasing all of the time. So it's like a power differential and it's kind of a spiritual equation. But I think it's I think it it's it works and it's effective. Like, I just know so many people are. It's like they're unhappy in their lives.

They're like, if I just could date this person, if I could just find this person, like, my life would be better.

But they don't have what that person they aspire to be with. They don't have the qualities that that person would find attractive. Right.

And they think that that person is going to complete them when truth. You have to become complete yourself. Right. Right. And when you can focus on that, on that personal growth trajectory that you're on, you become this more attractive person to the mate that you seek or the world more broadly.

Yeah, it's great advice. You know, going on the apps is overfishing. And. Tuning into yourself is sustainable fishing. Is that what you think about? That's my that's my that's my opening in yourself is sustainable fishing.

Yes. You tune into our podcast episode, you become tune into your so you become the sustainably fish your soul. You become the fish they all chase. All right.

I can live with that. Yeah, I got it. I like that. I don't know if that was very helpful to Madeleine, but. Well, it's disappointing because no one wants to be told. Just tune into yourself and forget about writing because when you you're out of it.

But I don't have the answer like, oh, you should call this number or go to this website. And here's where all the people are hanging out secretly.

No. Well, there are those secret parties. I know there are there was an article in the L.A. Times about the secret gems. Yeah. Did you see that? No, I saw the secret parties one.

Yeah, I saw that too. But there was one about like people who've set up gyms in their garages because like a whole underground network of where, because all the hardcore fanatic gym rats needed a place to go and all the gym clothes. And so they're like speakeasies, right?

Like you got to know somebody in a password. Right. You can get it. That's what these parties are.

Right. And like and like the parties are getting shut down. Garcetti shut down like the power to some of these houses. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. They had it all done. Yeah.

But maybe I don't know Madelin, I don't have the I don't have the password for any of these eyes wide shut, you know, running speakeasy situations.

They probably exist somewhere.

They probably do. You don't want to go. Right. But you know you're going to be all right. That's a fun question. You're obviously a fun person. It's going to be.

And you live in Redondo Beach. Go run on the Strand. Go run up to Manhattan Beach and back. There's so many people out there. Exactly. I'm sure that you can find some. But I'm not saying avoid actors, but avoid actors.

Yeah, that that's definitely I love that I'm getting a lot of actors on the apps.

I think if I had to go and if I ever was single and had to go in the apps again, I would like my bio would be like, says the wrong thing in mixed company or.

Well, there's a lot of tongue in cheek with that too. Again, I'm speaking out of school because I don't know, it's all anecdotal. I went through I was on the ads that are like about five minutes and it was so bad, like I've met one person and they they didn't look anything like their picture. And I got traumatized. I couldn't go. I was like, you know what, I'm going to go analog.

You know what I say to that? OK, Boomer. You know, it's funny, a good one, and then we'll pivot to the last question. Yeah, and I think there was an article in the Atlantic about this, but we were talking about it at dinner the other night in this whole conversation around Gen Y and and and Gen Z and millennials and how like Gen Z doesn't like the Millennials and like all that kind of like boomers. Right.

The boomers in the boomers and all of that. Yeah. No mention of Gen X.

That's how we like my generation.

We're so fully still slack will never have a perpetual slacker to even participate in that cultural discussion. Well, listen, the Gen Xers we don't want cancela culture because it's just like we wanted to be like the iconoclastic culture, like the iconoclastic generation, like we we liked people that said the wrong thing. We we we kind of like we liked punk rock and things like that. And now that's turning out that our tastes and like pop culture and it didn't save the world.

So now we're going to have to cede the stage to people who have better ideas like. Right.

But why does Gen X get lost in this conversation?

I think I feel like we just get lumped in as boomers now we're getting lumped in because everybody who's not if you're Gen Z, anybody who's not Gen Z and maybe slightly Millennial is a boomer.

There's that great overheard L.A. thing on Instagram where it was like overheard in a coffee shop. OK, Boomer. And then the parent daughter said, OK, Boomer. And the parents said something like, I'm not a boomer, honey, I'm Gen X, OK, Boomer, right?

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It doesn't matter. We're lumped in. It doesn't mean just we're boomers, so which is too bad because I shared my the skepticism of boomers as well. Well documented.

Right. And boomers are nothing like Gen X. No.

They had they they they had the summer of love. We had the AIDS epidemic.

It's basically just a way of saying you're clueless being a boomer.

Well, OK, Boomer just means like you're you're you've tapped out like time to cede the stage, old man.

But we don't have to see the stage yet. This is what I'm saying. Yeah.

So you want Gen X to be factored into these discussions? I like Gen X, you like ignored. You like it being ignored. I like being ignored. Right. It surprised them from that.

It probably is better that way. Yes. But I don't like being accused of being a boomer. You know who does. That's like it's like being a karren.

Is it that that it's that bad? All right. We digress.

Final question, Elizabeth from Nanaimo, British Columbia. My friend Justin Chatwin from their. Hi, Rick. Hi, Adam. My name is Elizabeth and I am a British Columbia. Firstly, I want to say how much I enjoy your role on conversation, which I also want to thank you for providing a platform to educate and challenge listeners to expand their perspectives and their awareness. I credit you with encouraging me to consider a plant based lifestyle for myself and also through your guests and your own perspective.

I've made that change in my own life to great benefits. I'm really interested in getting your perspective on leadership. Something I value and treasure about your podcast and perspective is your self-awareness and your willingness to examine yourself in your life. I'm curious what your perspective is on leadership. How do you show up to lead your team? Do you have any advice for spiritual, self-aware individuals that value doing the work on themselves, on how to show up in a professional setting and or perhaps ideas on how to blend self-awareness and personal growth with leadership and encourage your team to do the same?

Please feel free to play this. Thank you both for listening and wishing you all the very best. What a cool question. Elizabeth, thank you for that. I don't know if anybody's ever really asked me about leadership before, it is it's fascinating, I will admit that. I haven't spent a lot of time pondering leadership and probably less time studying it over the years, but I have started thinking about it a little bit more and shouldering this mantle more recently because I now employ people, which is something I never thought would happen.

So I guess I would I would launch into this response by saying I'm a reluctant leader. I don't consider myself a thought leader or a leader of teams. I think of myself as a solo proner, somebody who relishes quiet alone time. I'm fundamentally a writer and disposition and always kind of considered myself suited to doing my own thing and wanting to be left alone.

I mean, that's still my greatest desire is to be left alone, right? Yes.

But I recognize that I've created a situation that places me now in the context of having to lead much more than I would have ever wanted or realized. Then with the growth of the podcast, like I said, I have people that I employ now. I am a subcontractor. You don't imply you are.

You're not. Yes. You don't report to me. I'll w nine you.

I am a boss, though, which is weird, and I admit it's a little bit uncomfortable for me, but it's forced me to kind of wrestle with some growth stuff because what I say, how I say it and more importantly, like what I do, how I comport myself, how I handle myself, matters to other people in my immediate orbit. And so I have started kind of thinking about these issues in a more meaningful way recently. I won't say that I have any kind of specific philosophy of leadership, but I do have a few touchstones.

And many of those I have to say, I credit to my business partner, Greg Anzalone, like I've learned so much from this guy. I just think he's an exemplary human being. And Leader Greg is the CEO of Sideshow Sideshow Collectibles. That's really, you know, what he like. He's my business partner. But really, his business is a sideshow, which makes limited edition collectible figures from pop culture, like all the Star Wars stuff and Marvel stuff, like these limited runs of, like, beautiful, you know, the baby Yoda is their product, stuff like that.

And Greg is somebody I've come to to really deeply admire and respect as one of the most effective and compassionate leaders that I've ever met and somebody who in so many ways mimics the findings in the research of Adam Grant, who's the guy in the podcast this week, a guy who study leadership deeply for for many, many years.

And and so some of those touchstones are. And this is coming from Greg, it's about the people, not the product that the employees come before the widget. Right. Like the organization is is set up not to make widgets, but to empower people's lives with meaning and purpose. I've learned that it's wise to approach every situation with a giving mindset. It's not about what you can get out of a situation, but how you can better support the people beneath you.

I've learned that it's about action and behavior.

What you say is important, but that must be aligned with your actions, which obviously speak louder than words. And if your actions are misaligned with your words, then you've faltered. So I think that's been super helpful to me. I'm a perfectionist. So learning that progress is better than perfection is a lesson hard wrought for myself. Something that I'm getting used to because. Your perfectionism might help you create something that will get you to a certain level, but if you want to create largesse in a sustainable way, you have to empower the people around you.

And those people have their own ways of doing things. And and that's not always going to meet up with how you would do things. So holding on too tightly to your ideas, I think becomes an inhibitor to growth. So learning how to let go and empower other people I think is super important. I think anticipating the needs of the people that you work with is really powerful, like creating solutions to problems before they arise, because you can see where things are headed before they even get there.

One of the things I've seen Greg do is just surprise and delight the people that work underneath him and alongside him by showing up in ways that others in a position of leadership don't because they're thinking about themselves and Greg's always thinking about other people and he'll just show up and do the thing that nobody would have ever expected.

And sometimes their big gestures and sometimes their little gestures. But they're always very meaningful, like Greg will, well, you know, find housing for an employee or do something that like a CEO or a person in a position of leadership just wouldn't you know, you wouldn't think that they would be thinking about the people who work beneath them in such a meaningful way. And that's been, you know, really kind of amazing to see him do that time and time again and has impacted me.

I think in terms of leadership, thinking about how to play the long game is super important, not over indexing for short term profitability or productivity, but rather thinking broadly about creating and establishing sustainable systems that allow people to flourish and do their best work, not in a highly pressurized environment, but giving them a little bit of bandwidth so that they can feel secure in their expression, I think is huge.

Adam has this great quote. Adam Grant, which is the most meaningful way to succeed, is to help others succeed. And it seems simple, but I think it's powerful to not perceive the world as some kind of zero sum equation, but to look at things from a broader, more spiritual perspective that the universe is infinitely abundant.

So with that, give freely of yourself and service to others. And not only does that come back in your direction tenfold, it engendered amazing trust and loyalty in the people that that you work with.

See, we're back to the Dallas philosophy, I mean, that's really the whole like the middle way as the Dallas philosophy is. If if the few have much, the many have little, that's totally, completely anti the way the like the the nature of the Dow.

And the idea is to is to have everyone share in the abundance.

And so like the fact that you're citing that as a driving philosophy of your business bodes well for your business. If countries worked out that way, like, you know, in Scandinavia, countries who have expanded social safety net and are able to, you know, yes, the taxes might be higher to have health care and public education at a high level and X, Y and Z. But if you actually look at everyone's bank account, everyone has more money.

The rich and the lower, lower working class and the middle class, there is no lower class. And so if you look at it that way, everyone does better when there's enough for everyone. And the way we have it in our mind is, well, if I have to pay, this is less for me. You know, that person should get should get more of themselves, you know. Right. But that's just not how it works.

You know, if everyone did better, everyone would do better. It's very simple. And unfortunately, you know, we do have a leadership. I love this question because we have a leadership vacuum in this world right now. There's not a lot of effective leaders you can point to that are getting the job done on a on global or national level. There's a few that we sometimes identify, but it's hard. And I think the great leadership, everything's like the best leaders.

It's all happening local people's homes and people's businesses.

And and I think Greg's amazing. It's been so cool to meet him and learn from him. So well said.

Yeah, 100 percent. And just and having a moral compass and having your actions aligned with that perspective. Right.

Like, isn't that what leadership is? It's not it's not just, you know, bending to whatever is in your self-interest in the moment, which seems to be the hallmark of current times, rather, you know, heating a greater call and being willing to sacrifice, sacrifice yourself first in the interest of that. And I think when you demonstrate that as a leader, that's very powerful for the people that are following you.

Greed. Well said. We did it, dude. We got to the end right on. How do you feel? I feel good, man. I feel lighter and also like that. I have to be a little more introspective as I approach this. Weekend of hell awaiting me. You do you got some work to do for yourself on the subject of feeling good, we should say that our buddies, Giorgio and Arthur and their Feels Good Man documentary did not make the Oscars short list.

And I'm sad to say.

Yeah, but if you have yet to check out that movie, please go to Apple Plus and make a point of watching it.

And let's support those guys. We need more cool indie filmmakers out there who do their work should be celebrated. How do you feel, Rich? I feel good, man.

I feel good. I love talking to you, man. This was super fun and it was nice to kind of pivot back to more of my sweet spot to because I like to talk about.

Yeah, yeah. There was no, you know, giant social political explosion this week that forced us to focus on something that is a little bit outside of, you know, one of the things that I enjoy most talking about hopefully this is the new normal where we don't have to say it.

Like I said, just stop it right there. You know, we'll see. We're taking it day by day.

Friend, it is 20, 21. All right.

Let's wrap it up. Thank you, Adam. Always a delight. Thank you. Share space with you. You can follow Adam and Adam Skolnick on Twitter and Instagram. You can leave us a message at four to four, two, three, five, four, six, two, six. As always, check the show notes on the episode, page at Role Dotcom, where you can dive deeper and all the things we talked about today. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, all the good places.

Again, we created a clip's channel on YouTube. So if you like short chunks, you can check that out. Links in the show, notes and in the description below. If you're watching this on YouTube, or you can just search rich role podcast clips on YouTube.

What else? I think that's it, man. I appreciate everybody. Yeah. Worked hard to put on today's show. Yeah.

And thanks for all the calls, guys. All the questions. Appreciate. Appreciate it. I want to thank Greg Anzalone for his leadership.

Yes. Always Jason Carmello for audio engineering, production, shout outs and interstitial music. Blake Curtis for handling video duties, Jessica Miranda for graphics, David Greenberg or his beautiful portraits. Georgia waili for copywriting.

D.K., who is in the house right now for advertiser relationships and theme music, as always, by my boys, Tyler, Tarapur and Harry. Appreciate the love. You got to see you back here in a couple of days with another amazing episode.

Until then, peace plans, Alasdair.