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Well, hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Temperature, where it is my job to attempt to deconstruct world class performers of all different types, to tease out the habits, thought processes, best practices, creative flow process, etc., that you can apply to your own lives. My guest today is Sia and find her on Twitter at CIA. Sia is one of the most fascinating people I have come across in the last few years.
So Unorthodox gets away with so much and is the inveterate experimenter. I find her fascinating. She is an Australian singer, songwriter, director, screenwriter and pop icon. Her current single Together is from her forthcoming album and Motion Picture Music due out later this year. Twenty twenty last year she partnered with Diplo and Labrinth to form the group LCD, their debut album, Labyrinth, SIA and Diplo Present. LSD has one billion plus streams to date. She released the Grammy nominated.
This is acting in 2016 to much critical acclaim and cemented her role as one of today's biggest stars and sought after live performers with her sold out. Nostalgic for the present headlining tour, she has more videos in YouTube's Billion Views Club than any other female on the planet. Her massive single Cheap Thrills was a multi format global radio hit and was one of the longest running singles at Top 40 of 2016. Along with her own successes, Sia has written Global Smashes, and we're talking 100 hundred plus songs for today's biggest acts, including Beyonce, Kanye West, Rihanna, Britney Spears, Katy Perry and many, many more.
She's really polymath. She has worked on herself. She has saved herself in more ways than one. Once again, you can find her on Twitter at Seah, Instagram, at Seeya Music. And without further ado, please enjoy a very wide ranging conversation with SIA.
I'd like to start in a weird place because like you said before, this record, oh, yeah, weird place, because before you broke the record, I was like, you were telling me that I had if I wanted, I could do anything, if I had felt embarrassed about what I said or something like that, of course. And you very kindly. And I said so I could do this interview instead of me.
It's true, you absolutely could leave me alone, and if only I'd known and as I said, when you mention that, speaking of someone who may or may not have experienced, it could mean that you often sound better to yourself than you do to other people.
Well, I actually do get ketamine infusions from my call. You do so. But in putting L.A., they do it where you're totally out. So you don't feel you're not lucid at all. You don't really trip at all. But he here in this other place where I'm at right now, trying to maintain a modicum of privacy and then more East meets West. So it's a doctor and I do the infusion. But I also do like a sort of intention.
And they hit the metal bowl and say, what's your intention? Well, I want the pain to turn from red to blue or blah, blah, blah. And I actually had lucid experiences. And that as a sober woman has been really fascinating, I imagine.
So I did do a sequence of five. Intravenous ketamine infusions over the span of two weeks because I had read about its application to suicidal ideation and chronic pain separately and wanted to have the first hand experience, not because I was suicidal, but because to recommend it to anyone who might come to me with suicidal ideation, I wanted to have the first hand experience to see what the effects and side effects were like at different dosages. And I found it to have a very surreal dissociative effect, just subjectively what I didn't expect because I wasn't thinking about it for the chronic pain, I had this acute pain in my mid back, this neurological pain that had plagued me for years.
And then I noticed a few weeks after ending the ketamine, no pain in my mid back. It was it was near miraculous. What what type of what has been your experience and what.
Yeah, that's my experience, too. And I mean, that was my experience even when I was doing in L.A. when I was doing Not Lucidly and then when I and as a sober woman doing it lucidly, that was very confronting. And I thought I was going to have a bad trip. I'm like, I'm a bad driver, I'm a bad driver. I'm like, I've never had a good trip. Any time I did acid, it was bad, like a bad dripper.
Make sure you give me looks persad, which is like a sedative. And then he explained to me that the more of a side he gave me, the more ketamine he would have to give me and the less that he gave me less ketamine and that that would be nicer for my body. And so he ended up giving me half the dose that I get in L.A. But he also gave me half the dose of Forsett. And I had just a wonderful time.
By the time I was like, he writes down everything you say. And so afterwards he was like, OK, so here we go. Here's the things that you said. You said, I am a microbe. I mean, am I upside down? Am I upside down? OK, am I dying, I'm not dying because I don't lift the earphones off because I've got like like a feeder wave music and stuff going on in your ears and stuff, and they'll say, no, you're not dying.
You just focus on your intention. And with the one in L.A., I would never wake up or even be conscious enough to know or to say, am I dying?
And so I'm the quiet. As someone who has had suicidal ideation. What worked for me actually was Prozac. In the end, I had but I didn't I hadn't tried ketamine for that. But I did. I had complex PTSD. I believe I may have gotten through it in the last three years. I've done so much paperwork. But you haven't left the house. And I would only go to like a Sunday service because I love the singing so much and I love and I fell in love with the that they're still not around when you first arrived.
And so I would stay at home mostly and just I have a project that projects television or movies, whatever, onto the ceiling and above my bed. And so I basically just lie prone. And is that the word crohn.
Yeah, that would be let me think about this. Prone, supine. I believe prone. I believe you got it right. Is that right? I think prone might be stomach down. Like if you're in a prone position. In any case, you're on your bed. On your back.
I'm on my back with my face up. Look at this enormous projector screen, pretty much sixteen hours a day for three years and leave the house on Sundays to go to Sunday service and sing my heart out and clap and dance and dance around. And I was having a lot of suicidal ideation. And because of this chronic pain and because I guess I have an attachment injury and I'm really into attachment theory. And so but I believe I may may have earned a secure attachment, which is going to mean nothing to so many of your listeners.
Yeah, I mean, we can talk about attachment theory if if anybody's interested. I think it's the cutting edge of it. It's based on science and it's the cutting edge of where psychology is going and should be going is attachment theory. And it's pretty new.
Well, let's let's talk about it, because I've had a book recommended a number of times. I've not read it. Fortunately for me, I have a girlfriend who synthesized it for me, the book attached.
And I believe from stuff in there, that's the only reason I don't recommend it also just refers to it's like it's the baby version. So yes, as baby, you're either ambivalent, avoidant or preoccupied. But as we grow, we develop these strategies that happened in the first ten months of our life based on the care that we're given. We develop one of five strategies and sometimes disorganized. Well, all of them, like maybe maybe all five. So so the strategies are dismissive, preoccupied.
Careful, avoidant. Which is now called disorganized. Unresolved. And secure, which nobody in Hollywood is actually that's not true, I think John Legend might be secure.
So nice. But yeah, this so I took an eye, which is called an attachment assessment inventory, and send it off to have it made. You know, this is like three people who work in that department and they study the the interview and the language and the tone because it's recorded as well. And then they report back this attachment theory, which started by John Ball back in the 40s or something. And then it really only came to to light in nineteen eighty or eighty five.
I can't remember also a lot of wrong things here because that's what the show notes are for. Don't worry.
But I do know that in the first 10 months of your life, you are basically told who you are and what to experience in the world and how to behave and how to respond in any situation. It all happens in the first 10 months of your life based on the care that you've given. So I was complexly disorganized when we're in Georgia. Ha, who is helping me with my attachment repair? I mean, I'm so excited because I got one of my son has had an attachment interview and he was less complexly disorganized than me.
And I was so happy for him because I've actually managed to like earn some secure categories. So there's different categories is like seven categories. I don't know what they are. I'm not that smart, but I just know that I have two left on me that aren't secure, that are both fear related. The last time I took an attachment, but I started with only one secure feature. So out of seven and now I have I have five. Seems like a big improvement.
Yeah. So I also I guess I should say that attachment injury is addiction. It causes addiction. It's not a genetic disorder, it's not a disease. It's attachment injury that occurred in the first 10 months of your life. That doesn't mean your parents were bad or mean or cool. They may have been benignly neglectful or might be their dog died the day that you were born. Or, you know, there's so many reasons why your primary caregiver may have been preoccupied or unable to care for you, unable to give you the things that you needed for your brain to develop properly, securely.
So, yeah, it was about 50 percent of the population is secure. That's if you take out poverty and then otherwise it's about 30 percent.
How have you found studying attachment theory, doing the assessment, doing the work has impacted your life? I mean, it seems like you've certainly made a study of it and taking it seriously.
What are the what are the outcomes that you've seen in your life of the changes?
Well, I'm I'm not afraid anymore. I've spent my whole entire life being extremely afraid of being and especially in personal relationships, interpersonal relationships. I've had the attachment strategy that I have had was previously called fearful, avoidant, and now both disorganized. And I was fearful when it happened. And what that means is that the care was inconsistent. So you just don't know what you're going to get. So you keep turning around and putting your arms out if you make the toddler.
So you put your arms out and you say, maybe this time I'm OK, maybe this time. And you keep imagining it toggled turning around and putting their arms in the air and maybe they'll get kicked in the chest or maybe they'll get picked up. You never know.
And so there's just a I mean, I'm not saying parents kick me in the chest frame of knowledge of what is it?
Is the analogy or a metaphor parallel or.
It depends, I guess, if they literally kick you in the chest. I didn't I guess I just I'm pretty sure they.
But you just like or if they didn't come when you cried, if they didn't come, there's these seven stages like a baby. Right. So the baby looks cute. First thing it does when it wants, it needs something or it's in pain or needs or needs its nappy change or it's uncomfortable. Is it first thing it does is it looks cute. And the second thing it does is when that doesn't work to get the attention of the caregiver, they look confused and then they'll whimper and then they'll think it's a they'll intermittently cry.
I think that's what's next. And then that's when you should definitely pick them up. When they're intermittently crying, then the next one will be crying. And then next one is tantrum, this awful screaming like anger, rage, like, why is nobody coming to get me? And then the baby's brain goes into completely shut down. Because it thinks it's going to die. So people who sleep train their babies, if you think that it works, yeah, it works because your baby thinks it's going to die and it gives up on life, stop crying.
So it only works if you go back in there at that intermittent crying point. And if you go in when the intermittent crying and you say, I love you baby's name, let's say George, I love you, George, but it's time to go to sleep now. But we're just right out here.
And that creates object constancy, which makes for wireless psychos in the world with wireless like people like waiting by the phone, waiting for the techs, waiting for the techs, waiting for the text, like, so what happens to people who didn't get picked up during the intermittent crying phase or didn't get like just at least reassured during the intermittent crime phase if they were left, then they got into the Olympic shutdown. Now, as adults, when someone that there has captured their projection, like a person, like a partner, like a love interest or something, a person of great interest to you captures your projection and you text them.
And then if they don't do that, you start to feel sick and panicky. And what's actually happening is just the same thing as when you were a baby was the seventh stage of being shut down. So the whole of the same neurochemicals that were dumped into your body when you're a baby and you thought, I'm going to die because nobody's coming. That happens as an adult. The same exact same brain chemistry happens. And so all these human adults are sitting at home waiting for text, feeling like they're going to die, like there's so many of them.
And it's like it's not everybody secure. People don't feel that way, but people who are preoccupied or or disorganized, fearful, avoidant, they do. And they suffer greatly because of it. And it's merely because nobody came and reassured them at the intermittent point when their baby that they're OK. It's time to go back to sleep and leave the room, then the baby. If that does the thing, it does a cute, confused whimper into it and cry.
Then they go in, reassure them again, then time to go to sleep. And if you do that, that's actually healthy sleep training as long as you do that at the intermittent crying. But if you leave a baby to cry, cry it out, you damaging them forever and ever and actually creating an addict not knowing.
Let me ask if I could, just because you mentioned the you're talking about upbringing and talking about on some level, it seems like unpredictability as a factor. That's one of the factors that might lead to this fearful, avoidant, now just disorganized, complex of sorts. Could you speak to in the course of doing homework for this conversation? I came across a discussion of and this is not to pin everything on on a single parent or either both parents, but your dad having two different personalities with two different names.
Could you speak to you?
Had he had his real name is Phil, but he had a bad temper sometimes. And when he would have his bad temper, he would if he would seemingly turn into a different person and then he would come back from being angry. And he was like, sorry about that. Sort of stands by you. Sorry about that. And and so went on. I grew up, I thought, oh, watching all the movies, I thought, oh, he has multiple personality disorder.
And finally when I was twenty five, I thought everyone's dad had two personalities until I was like twenty five. But then I realized that I don't know whether it was. And it's now called dissociative identity disorder. It's not called multiple personality disorder. It's also misrepresented hugely in the media because nobody who has multiple personality disorder or dissociative identity disorder, which is what it's called now, did is dangerous or mean or angry. All actually that could be angry.
But but they're all basically part of a constellation of an abused child that have split off to protect the original. So. But from the user, so they're all there just simply as protectors. So when we watch movies like Split, we really we sort of demonize people with did. And I also now think I don't know if my dad had died. I think maybe he just maybe he was just smoking too much weight or, you know, no, I really don't know now.
But we've talked about it. I asked him recently we had a really good repair. I asked him recently mentioned Stan in a text message, and I said, hey, dad, when you when you talk about Stan, what happens to me is that I get a whole bunch of fearful neurochemicals that dumped into my body and it makes me super anxious. And then I get shaky and it makes me it takes me about at least 20 minutes for my liver to be able to process at all.
And could you do me a favor and could we never talk about Stan ever again? And he said yes. And then he wrote a really beautiful message that was something like, I'm sorry. That must have been really. Painful for your fragile young psyche, and I'm ashamed and embarrassed. Well, and I'm sorry, and that was such a powerful moment. And then he sent me a picture of him standing by my crib when I was born. And I was like.
I burst into tears, it was like, wow, it was that he was showing me the father wanted to be in. And and so I can't. I can't believe he was my primary caregiver. I can't I don't really know. I know my mom got really depressed after I was born because she had previously lost a baby and she got postnatal depression. And so I think some of that the depression is. So if you have a blank face when you're staring at your baby, it's really scary to them.
Just so I know people and I didn't know that. But apparently you got a blank face when you're staring at your baby. It's really scary to them. To be animated is really helpful to them. And showing delight is really helpful. And they need your baby needs eye contact for the first 10 months from six to 12 inches from their face. They need eye contact, love, delight, hugs and just love and attention, you know, and then you end up with a secure baby, but you can also smother them and then you get too preoccupied to go to find the Goldilocks approach.
I want to I want to mention before I lose the observation that the delivery you just recounted to your dad, that phrasing seemed to be a really good use of text book, nonviolent communication, where you the way you phrased it was sort of textbook, not about I mean, it really I did watch it was six hours.
I watched a commercial. I'm blanking on his last name. That the.
Yeah, the Haitian guy. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's very subtle and very powerful when it's when it's used. Well which which it sounds like you did when you spoke to your dad in a way avoiding the type of or mitigating the likelihood of somebody having a really strong defensive stance. Yeah, yeah.
I guess I learned if you say I feel and then at the end you say, what do you think? Or you can say, this is what makes me feel. This is how it makes me feel. Or and I if I use science and if I'm getting smarter right now in terms of neurochemistry and the brain and pain and psychology and also parenting and attachment parenting and that sort of stuff, I just I'm so in love with it because I it it's going to create you know, I want to help people create secure babies so that we have so many less people, you know, in pain.
And it seems like one way or a very important way of doing that is working on yourself. And I just want to provide a little bit of context here for people who are listening. And that is I've loved your music, both the music where you are a performer.
And then the music, unknown to me, oftentimes has been written by you.
It's really astonishing how many songs I have on playlists that when I finally had my you know, my Kobayashi's like Kaiser Soucy moment and I was like, oh, my God, it's everywhere is everywhere in my life that I'm like by that's that's part one.
And then a reader of mine named Brian Elliott recommended after I wrote a blog post on a lot of the downsides of being public facing and having an audience recommended a profile of you called how she saved herself, which was in Rolling Stone.
BURRELL Right then. That's right. And it completely captured my imagination and talked about many of the decisions you've made, which, to borrow some phrasing that I've heard you use, has allowed you to use your gifts without hurting yourself, without destroying your serenity. And we're going to talk about that. I just want to give that story because how she has saved herself, I think in order to save your kids, whether even if they haven't been born yet, it's important to work on yourself.
And but you're clearly doing and have done a lot of that. I want to ask you, A, this was where the I want to start somewhere weird. Yeah. Came up a while back and and and it. Relates, Well, it makes me think of a novel that really caught my imagination when I was a young kid and that was around the world in 80 days, and I thought, well, maybe I'll start with around the world of seeya.
In 80 tatoos, you have quite a few tattoos. I wanted to ask about a few of them, and I haven't seen all of these. I've just read about a few of them. So if they're not accurate.
But do you have a tattoo that says, don't think, yeah, that was before I actually got into meditation and realized the irony of that, because telling yourself not to think is thinking, you're right.
Don't think of the pink elephant. Don't think of the pink. Yes.
So I realized. So for all your listeners who don't meditate, meditation is just a practice. It's nothing fancy. It's just breathing. It's like you could just if you can just breathe and feel the air going in your nose and out your nose, like and count to ten and just feel be present with that feeling of the air touching your nostrils and do that. That's a practice. And then if you have a thought, that's OK and it takes you away like in a car, like say you get in the car with the thought and it takes you for a drive, that's OK.
Just when you realize just go oops and go back to one and start counting from one again. And that's practice. It's just concentration practice. And then there are all sorts of other practices that you can sort of like delve into after that. But is just just even just concentration. Practice is so good for your brain and so good for your heart and your spirit. And the thing is, is when I hear people say, oh, I can't meditate, I'm not good at it, there's no being good at it because it's to practice, you can't be bad at it.
Actually, the only way of being better is not doing it. But it is my meditation teacher.
And this periods where I get I've gotten extremely low over the last three or four years and the periods where I totally dip out or meditating and he'd come over, I'm crying, do whatever, like super super suicide or whatever, and he come over. Have you thought about meditation?
It's it's free.
This data that says it will help you and I'll be like George and oh, how we laughed.
What is your practice look like?
The the mutual friend who introduced us when we finally started communicating directly has a team practice. Right. So I'm sure does many other things but has a tressell meditation practice. Twenty minutes. Twice a day.
Yeah. I don't want first to be done, but I don't think you should have to pay for meditation. And also I know that I know, I know what they do and I'm sure you do. But you know, your mantra is just related to your age. And I think if anything helps you do it and if that's that's what you found and great and it helps you, then do it. But I don't believe that meditation should be paid for.
I don't believe that it's anything you can be given. I think that it should be done a process and that it should be by donation only. That's just my personal opinion, because what is your practice look like? Oh, so my mom is just like about like twenty minutes a day. I will either listen to George's podcast at least once a week. I listened to George's podcast, which is I think George has something.
I find it on the links, but it's very heady. I've said to him recently, George, we need to do like an entitlement repair for dummies because like anyone, I listen to your podcast that it's really hard for them to understand. It's really hit. And it did take me two or three years to understand myself. And that's within repeating himself of the three years over and over again.
It's meditation times, attachment meditation, X attachment with George has as.
Oh yeah. So like my practice looks like this. Well I can do, I'll do concentration practice where I count or I'll do so.
And she joins in is. Georgia's teacher, so I guess I'm I'm using Finland's model and that model is also like I do. It's Felin fill out so you can like what you're feeling in your body or what you can feel on the outside of your body or here in here out is what you can hear inside your head or what you can hear outside of your head. Exterior noise, like external noise. And then they're seen and see.
So that's like visual imagery or or you can look at a leaf and watch it just wave and eye. The best one for me is here out. So what's what I do? And I think that's the best one for people who have extremely complex trauma because it's externalizing in a way and keeps you grounded in the present moment. So right now, let's say, OK, I'm good, I'm meditating right now, so I'm listening to the sound of my air conditioner and the sound of your.
Breathing, unless you're out of your mind. I just when I get carried away with the thought, I just come back to here out, but I that's what I do. So here you're out is is the one that I find the most easy, which is focusing on all the noises around externally that are involved in this perceived reality.
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Let me take a leap to something that I think is possibly related, you have written more than 100 hundred pop songs that people like Beyonce, Britney Spears and Rihanna, whose diamonds hit number one and so much more. I mean, the list is extremely long. You have, of course, then so much of your own work. The performative sense on top of that and what people might not realize is some of your songs that and this has a personal meaning to me, because this one has been on my playlist maybe the longest, and that is Breathe Me the night you wrote that you tried to kill yourself with twenty two Valium and a bottle of vodka.
And so we're going to talk about that.
The question is, because I heard you on, for instance, Howard Stern in 2014 and around the 16 minute mark, if people are interested, you play back a recording of coming up with the I guess it was maybe the melody and some of the lyrics for Diamonds, which everybody would recognize. And you you sounded like you were almost channeling because you're kind of mumbling nonsense syllables and then it just fell into place.
That's how it is for me and that's how it is elaborated. And that's how it is for I think a Eddie Benjamin will be the next Justin Bieber. It's just like a form of channeling and let words sound sort of come out. And then sometimes, if you're lucky, well, the melody is pure channeling and then the lyrics, if you're lucky, also will come out. That was awesome. When that happens, when that accidentally happens, that's when I think I'm really getting out of the way, you know, and that I'm allowing it to just blew through.
But for me, it's just getting out of the way, getting out of the way and just trusting in the present moment that what I do next is going to be what is supposed to happen.
So I'm going to ask a whole bunch of questions about process, because I know my listeners love process. I love process. And I have I have a bunch of questions. The overarching question is, and the reason I asked about the taking of the drugs and the vodka and so on is you seem to me to be very sensitive, that is, and not in a bad way. This means as an empath, it's like if you were a scale, you wouldn't just be a body weight scale, you'd be like a jewel.
So you have to have a lot of sensitivity.
And I wonder, I highly sensitive. And so I wonder how much of the drug use and the suicidal ideation and so on is from an overwhelm of input or is it from other things just to speak to anything that you ask?
Because I always just figured it all out because I have something wrong with me. I'm broken as my own trauma or so I'm an addict cause I'm just like I don't belong in this world. I don't know why I'm here. What, what? I'm just different. I feel like an alien. I don't know how people will be happy. I just didn't have the right chemicals in my brain going on. And that was just I now know due to the first ten months of my life, but I didn't know that then.
And so I attributed it to all sorts of whatever. I could really just try and attach it to anything and be like, that's why I'm like this. So this is why I'm like, oh, that's why I'm like this. And certainly that not that I wanted to die. You know, I could just remember just wanted to like just thinking I was so broken that nobody could fix me.
And then waking up in the hospital and feeling very embarrassed because you can only commit suicide is that you can sleep and you are like a pussy. Because I think I must have killed people like I don't remember, but I must have killed people because obviously someone came and took me to the hospital.
So there's always been a part of me that wanted to leave. And I think the part of me that I wanted to kill was the part of me that was in pain and not the real me, not the real actual me who has liberty and has boundless liberty. And I always had some liberty, but I also had that extreme sensitivity and I had to. Yeah, just chemical issues in my brain. Just I didn't have the right biochemistry going on.
So I had like a broken.
Differential one full frontal cortex, frontal prefrontal cortex, that one the prefrontal cortex, that one I had that that was broken.
And so I was the suicidal ideation was just it was like a broken record going on in my brain. It was actually it's actually a way to regulate emotion. So it would feel extreme sadness. This idea that I if I killed myself, I had power over, weren't so sure if that I could stop the pain. But what I was afraid of was dying as well. It was such a catch. Twenty two. It was like it's a very peculiar place to be in.
And I and then I realized, oh, I don't want to kill myself, I, I want to live. I have a broken brain, I've got to take medication. And one, as soon as I started taking medication for Prozac I took six days later that suicidal ideation was gone, completely gone. And I was sad for myself that I hadn't done it. So yeah, I'd had that broken brain so long that so that. There was something just very, very wrong, so I can't even remember the question you ask, but that answer the question, my questions are really intended as prompts.
They're not. And so it was more intended to open up what just came out.
So, yes, you did answer it.
And what you said makes me think about a phrase or an expression that I heard from someone named Stanislav Grof, who is a famous Czech born psychotherapist who's done a lot of work with LSD, assisted psychotherapy, developed something called hollow breath work also as a substitute. But he he's been on the podcast. He was on it eighty five or eighty six. But one of the things that he's written about is the desire to kill one's self being. A desire to kill the ego, but the only form that most people recognize for doing that is killing the physical body.
Yeah, and that there are other approaches, right? You can there are prescription options. In some cases. Ketamine is particularly and I I was very grateful. I went through my testing of ketamine because literally two or three weeks later, a friend of mine reached out who's a police officer who was suicidal and he had battled depression. And really the suicidal ideation was, I think in part because he had these loops that he could not interrupt these endless loops and he just wanted to stop the loops that causes those broken prefrontal cortex.
And ketamine is I would view it not to belabor ketamine, but just for people who may be hurting out there. And at the end of the rope, ketamine is not addictive in my experience, like some other compounds. Let's just say psilocybin, in looking at treatment resistant depression, I think is more additive, but it is subtractive in the sense that it hits pause on these loops and it allows you to experience yourself without the loop. And I think that you then can have the type of realization you did six days later saying, oh, I'm I'm like, why did I do, sir?
I'm a microwave.
I'm a microbe. I am upside down.
So let's if we could and and I know this doesn't have to be this example, but to talk about process, the Diamond's example is as a fun one, I think because of how tightly it was done, given you had a plane to catch in a car waiting for you.
But but but you you have these expressions and you have very clear thinking around your songwriting. And you've talked about I've heard you talk about strong titles and the ability to to Google. Right. In the case of chandelier milking the metaphor, I mean, you think about this very concretely. Can you just give an example of your process?
Yeah, well, I mean, now it's sort of changing. But when I first started, my manager said, well, he said to me something that was monumentally important, which was basically what I needed to be doing, was they were riding high concept. He was going I think he was going high concept. I think that's what he said. And then I Googled it and then it didn't make sense to make. So that Big Brother, I was like, really get it.
And I called him back and I was like, what do you mean exactly? I was like, well, you take something. And then I was like, oh, like, hang on. Do you mean like piggy bank? Like, I'm not I'm not your piggy bank. And he was like, Yeah. And I was like, oh, OK.
I think I've got it.
All right, I'm I don't want to be your piggy bank like, you know, I was like, yeah, that's got me not it. But it was OK.
And then like a week later I wrote Titanium and that was the first one I wrote. And then so I started. I always just channeled the melody. But then I, I was consciously writing down things that I thought would be good titles. The global titles are that would be good metaphors or catchy. And so that was decided to be a fun game. And so that's what I did for a long time. But yesterday I wrote that is just on the verge of peace testing, which is I wrote a song about New Year's Eve.
It's called Three Minutes to Midnight. So you put the song on three minutes to midnight and then everyone can count down together. So you just press play it three minutes to midnight. It's like I want everyone to play the song and it's so silly and fun and had that one, I almost freestyle the entire thing. So yeah, I know. Like some days I'm very formulaic and some days and sometimes people like give me very specific, you know, what they want for an end title or you know, of a movie, what they need or you know, or what Rihanna's looking for at the moment she's looking for is a track that she really likes, you know.
So sometimes I get direction and I take it, I just take it. And I don't work so much with artists anymore. But it was so helpful to work with artists because, like, I am really good at, like, being of service. So I could do.
Totally eat shit sandwiches all day long, like if they were like divas or whatever, and because I knew I would still be getting 50 percent or 30 percent or whatever of the publishing dissuade them from playing something extremely silly or bad, then I've done my job.
But you know that if they wanted to sing a song about something that I found banal or stupid or that that was fine, that I'm just there to support what they're trying to do. And I challenge them to some degree if it's very, very bad. But otherwise I'm just there to support them. But that was really helpful to me because that helped me, I think, in terms of becoming a director.
Right. Right. And we're definitely going to talk about that. I just want to pause bookmark for a second for people who don't understand the peculiarities or the intricacies of the the music business. And you said the the percentages of publishing. Can you explain what that means for folks just so they understand how different people make money in the music world?
Yes. Publishing is really the only growth industry in music. I mean, touring, if you're Coldplay, you make money or U2, but touring, usually musicians will make a loss. So really, the only march you can sometimes make money, but really the best way to make money in music if you're going to be a musician is to write the music. And so there's a couple of different mice's pop splits and there's urban splits, and I can tell you that.
So I guess an urban split is like whoever is in the room or whoever does even one tiny word or something, it all gets split between you might be equally. I think I think that's important, but I don't do that.
And it was really funny because very Blanco, like, wrote me. It was like, why don't you? Why don't you? He's a producer. He's like, he did a whole bunch, Katy Perry. And he does. Right. Hits galore. Hits galore. His goal, he stopped counting after he had no one to me anyway. And he was he was writing me and he was like, why are you? Because he was working with a partner on producing a song.
And I believe that if I write the melody and the top line, I get 50 percent of the song. And if you write the chords, you get 50 percent of the song and do the production. You get paid for your production separately, aside from getting paid for the writing. So a producer, a good producer these days make 30 40 grand for producing a song that means producing a song, maybe putting all of the sounds in all of the piano sound and then a violin sound or or the sound of the bass and the and the beat.
That's full production. The songwriting process is literally just chords and melody and lyrics. So chords are worth 50 percent of publishing and lyrics and melody are worth 50 percent of publishing. And then if you go and produce it, you get a fee for producing. So I'm so lucky I wrote the chords to Chantilly. Can you explain what that means?
Because I think cause I think strumming like a C or D on a guitar, but I don't I don't know if I'm thinking of the same thing.
That's what that's about. It like it's so important is I guess it's the three fingers on a piano. Yeah. And they make a chord and so you go like them. I'm doing up, I'm doing a note of applause. I'll be like, no, no, no, no. That's four different. Like they're just four different notes, but I got it.
And then you give that to the producer. They put it. They take that. They put it in.
Just since you mentioned the piano and earlier this that was chandelier. I did I did write the chords, but I then I sent them to Jessie Shatkin and I said, can you make a song out of this? And he did all the production and I'm nice. So I gave him twenty five percent of the publishing. But I'm not I'm not required to do that. Like I could have type one hundred percent of the song and paid him his production fee of forty thousand dollars let's say.
And and melody is the sound of the voice or the song.
That's just the expression on or whatever.
Like yeah that's melody. And then once you add lyrics to that, it's called top one. Melody Eather is called Top Line. Got it, and so I am a top line writer, but now I guess I am also I can write some chords, but I'm pretty savvy at it.
But I do I do like clang, clang away on the piano occasionally and send Jesse, like, videos of me playing the piano so he can see which chords I'm playing, songs out of those.
And I and because I appreciate him and I know I couldn't do it without him, I always do for him. But to get in another world, you wouldn't be entitled to that. You would get a production fee. So I like to be generous.
And when somebody says, for instance, when if you were to say I have 50 percent of publishing, what is that 50 percent of is it is it specifically what radio stations pay?
OK, yeah, it it's across the board. It means so like OK, a really highly listened to commercial radio station let's say. And just this is a random number that's not necessarily correct. Let's say every time a family gets played, they pay my publisher a dollar. Right. So now I get seventy five cents of that and Jesse gets twenty five cents of that. And and my my publishing company, I think they take I think they take 15 percent or something as an admin fee to a book agent.
So yeah. And I used to be 30 because I used to need a publisher, but I don't actually need a publisher now because I don't need them to introduce me to any songwriters or other songwriters or artists. I don't need the services that they offer, so I only need them to collect money from me.
So so that's how I managed to get it down to 50 percent because most people are still paying 30 percent of their to their publishers.
So do you get paid when albums are sold digitally as well, or is that completely separate?
I do, but I don't know how. And that would be a question for my manager. I really have no problem.
We don't have to get royalties and I don't understand that what the whole process was.
You're talking about the volume of work that you do. And I found a an interview you did with The Guardian in twenty sixteen. This is a while ago. So I just may have changed, but I'd love to hear. You expand on a little bit and here's the quote, I love the idea of how fast we can make the song, but I don't I don't think that I'm necessarily a super talented songwriter. I just think I'm really productive. One out of 10 songs is a hit.
So where a lot of people will spend three weeks on one song, I will write ten in three weeks. Maybe the song that they sculpt is going to be a successful as just one of the 10 that I wrote. Is that is that still true?
Yeah, that's definitely still true. But I also think I've gotten a little bit better at picking tracks that are hits. So sometimes people send me tracks.
So for the people listening tracks are when someone, a producer sends you a already fully done bottom line, which is all the music, all the sounds of the beat, everything, the chords, it's all there that so they would be 50 percent right there. They send you 50 percent of a song. And if I hear the way the chords move and think that it's a smash because I actually record myself to everything, I listen to the very first time.
So I press play when I listen to something for the first time, I press by and record on my computer and I'll sing along to it and see if I can intuit where it's going and if I manage to intuit where it's going and it sounds good and something works, then I, I'm just better at picking now what I think will be what will be catchy, because I do believe now that pop music is really just indoctrination, which is sad because it used to be music used to be good.
What does it mean when music was good? Is it still great music out there?
But I've never I never hear it.
I don't listen to music. I just watch television and movies. So that's probably why the other person I wasn't as leverage.
Is that true?
You don't ever listen to background music? No. Oh, yeah. I'll put it into because I just got Apple Music. I don't have Spotify or Pandora, but I just got Apple Music and so now I just type Fade Away or by the waves alpha wave and I'll just play on one of those side or whatever. But if I'm not watching television, I'm talking to a friend. I'm not usually listening to music. It's not what I do. It's very interesting.
Is that always been the case or did that at some point feel too much like work to you or you can't listen to it without breaking it down and thinking about the top line and this thing?
No, it's weird. It's just I did it very much. I was obsessive as a child around it. I would listen to and I've said this billion times. I was apologise to those who I've heard this before, but I would listen to that part indoors, somewhere in a drawer, somewhere. It goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on. And I like that part so much, but I just didn't care about the rest of the songs.
So I just recorded that part like fifty times onto a 30 minute type. And I would literally just listen to that over and over again and I would sing along to it. And the same with this Chrissie Hynde, one that don't get me wrong, wrong, wrong. I still got it.
I got what? I can't do it. I've never been able to do it. And I can't like I can't do it like she does it. And I would try so hard and I just technically could not do it and I still can't do it. And so that's exciting because I love not being able to do something because I was so recently thinking, oh, well, more professional and personal goals.
What like what do I do now is nihilism or is it full engagement, you know, so but yeah.
So I guess I could still keep trying that like with music as a child I didn't have a television until I think I was ten or eleven and then I became addicted to television. But I still listen to music, some music, not much. Usually what whatever my parents would listen to that was like soul to soul. Malcolm McLaren and well, earlier, my dad, when my dad was around, it was all sixties like Motown and go. And really just fun and pop that sort of stuff, and then when he left home, I think my step father a more I think he brought the Malcolm McLaren and the old soul into the house.
And and so, Karen, we were all Terence Trent D'Arby, Stevie Wonder, the Franklin, Chrissie Hynde and Annie Lennox sort of became these voices that I read, Mariah Carey, actually these voices I just started to mimic. I just wanted to sort of the obsession for me as a child was I would mimic these artists until I thought I sounded exactly like. So then I guess when I when I sang the first original song ever that I, I just I had the voice that was an amalgamation of all of those people that I had studied.
And I didn't it wasn't very good. I mean, there's an amazing video of me when I'm 12. I'm really a bad singer and I'm definitely put it out some time. I want people to know that, like, I was going Christina Aguilera, like she was incredible, like when she was ten years old. She's doing these insane technical runs. I was a very mediocre singer at 12 and I went on this talent show and super mediocre. I sent it to basically this is silly.
Again, I'm putting up the Kardashians, but I sent it to North because Kim told me that n got sad because she put Kim Kardashian told me that n got sad because she couldn't sing Chandelier as well as I did. And I so I sent her the video of me when I was 12. And that's amazing. I look at this, this was how this was. I couldn't sing at all when I was 12. Like you are only a little like you are going to be an amazing singer and and they're so nice and funny.
But it's pretty hilarious because, like, I'm I might have a reptile I love.
Oh, that makes that makes two of us either at 12 on Long Island. But I wasn't I wasn't doing anything.
I couldn't find my legs.
So the robot was doing the splits.
Oh, I was singing a song about so many muscles are musclebound the I would love to see the video so please do put that out for me.
I'm definitely going to do that because I want I want kids to know that. You know, I know I wasn't always a good singer, and I, I and I've gotten better. I think even just over the years, last 20 years, I think I didn't really belt that main thing out really big loud for the listeners. I didn't really belt it until I was maybe six years ago, 10 years ago. Not terrorism.
Yeah, because I was my whisper album.
I had my voice.
So you have honed your voice and we're going to talk. I want to ask you about the movie before we get to the movie. I have to it I have to ask you about the decision to, at least in many cases, hide your face and get away with a lot, because and I'm reading here this piece from the Rolling Stone profile that was read one paragraph that I have a couple of other editions about the success of titanium, which is a whole story unto itself that we won't get into right now.
But people can people can look up the song and Wikipedia made see one of the most Intiman songwriters in the business. But she needed to put out one last album to get out of an old publishing deal. She said she'd do it on the condition that she would have artistic control and do no promotion, no touring, no press, no media appearances. Now, you've also sung with your back to audiences. You've been on the cover of magazines with your face entirely covered.
Why did you make these decisions? Well, it's really I really can't really 100 percent remember the genesis, but I I've got this vague recollection that I thought, all right, I'll put this on all things with my back to the audience and I'll put this plumbbob on other people. And then everyone can be the pop star and then I Cosmati in Shandilya, and she was so incredible and engaging and lovable and does you pronounce your last name, Ziggler, or how shape that mathematics for people who don't know.
This is an incredible dancer.
Unbelievable. And actor, by the way, she and actor Oscar Worthy. It's crazy. So she was I didn't realize I was going to be so engaging and wonderful and lovable and that I was going to want to immediately like to have her in my life all the time. And so I guess in the beginning, you'll see there are pictures of lots of different people wearing the blond bob in the artwork for, I think, a thousand forms of fear, I think, because originally I was just going to have other people, like celebrities, like I asked if he would just wear the one Bob and sing my song or whatever.
I just thought, oh, well, I'll ask Robert Pattinson or I'll just ask other people if I was going to ask Robert Pattinson if he would do the cover of Rolling Stone, if I could just put his face over my face on a stick, you know.
And so I had all these ideas, like how I it would be funny, like to hide from celebrity or just ask other people if I could borrow the celebrity just for the day. And and so that never really evolved because of my partnership with Maddie, because I fell madly in love with her as a person and as an artist and as a collaborator. And so suddenly I was just like, I don't want to work with anyone else. I love this person.
She's so wonderful. And and and so I guess she became almost an avatar.
And I know a lot of most of the tweens and a little people think that she is when they meet me, they're so disappointed and actually often wear out me and her together. And often people will come. And most of the time I try and bodyguard her and I'll be like, oh, unfortunately, we can't do Fotos right now. She's not supposed to be in town. No one was. No, she is because it's getting gnarly for her people and selfies and stuff like that now.
But on the rare occasion, it's a very sweet little tiny person that will say, know, would you mind taking, I think, from her mom, which I love because I mean and also like I dated a couple of celebrities over the last few years, but like, I love that one time I was on a date with someone and and they recognize the person I was on the date with. And they were like, oh, my God, could you take a picture with you, with me, like me and him.
And I was like, of course. And so I was just so I loved being the plus one.
I was like, I, I would love to be a plus one because I like being entertaining and fun and nice and friendly to my friends and obviously to my fans or whatever, or to do like people who are trying to make the world a better place. But like, I don't care about adulation from people I don't know or who I don't know. I just I get my validation elsewhere. And so celebrity is this huge gaping fame is like just a huge disappointment.
For those of you who are listening, who want to be famous, just do something else. It's not what you think it is. It's it's toxic now, that's the best way to put it. It's not what you think. It is highly accurate.
I don't know. But yeah, I fell in love with Matty and then then the bigwig was actually I think my ex-husband was like, you were really big. We like like an animated character. And so I did that at the Grammys. And then that became kind of, I guess, iconic. And then I would say that in my Halloween costume. And and then Matty also became a Halloween costume and Shandilya and that was conscious. I was like, I want to always make outfits off or looks that can be replicated for very little money, because I want people to be able to afford to dress up as the pop star.
So and I do. Yeah. And the same with my movie, all of the outfits in the movie I'm having made for Halloween in like affordable, like affordable.
You know, we've alluded to the movie a few times now. Why don't we tell people more about it? Could you what's what's the Genesis story. Why do movie. Oh yeah.
I don't know. I was very I was about, I don't know, maybe 15, 16 years ago now.
I don't know. I thought it was I just had a story come into my head. I wrote it down. And then many years later it evolved into a screenplay. And then it was a kind of mediocre, pretty good indie screenplay. But my best friend, who is a great writer, he said, I mean, this is great, nice indie. You could do this. It wasn't a musical. It was pure narrative. I was very against making a musical because I really wanted people to be a serious director.
I was really because I really I think I was a wanker.
And it would be like a it was just like a vanity project or like an actor making an album or I was scared of judgment, basically. And and then he said, oh, we could make this. I could I could help you with this and we could make it better. So I started from scratch with Dallas Clayton, and he's my best friend, the one I was talking to. Before I talk to you, just go get some regulation because I was a movie man and and I worked 20 minutes.
Oh, that's a top to twenty minutes of regulation with someone that you trust and trusts you, but is like you have a 50 50 relationship with 20 minutes of conversation with them will make you not want to do a drug, smoke a cigarette gamble to have sex pawn shop like it. It's the cure to addiction is connection. Twenty minutes of car regulation with the person that you trust. That's that's the solution. And yet Bill Bill w for me I he just sort of happened upon it like accidentally I think.
But now it's proven science. So anyway, back to the movie. Yeah. We wrote it, I was too scared to make it. Then some personal went to divorce. You know, I think he had wanted to, he wanted to like babies in May and may not be working so much. And I. I realized I was I was in the wrong relationship, and so I that was very devastating and that being about a four year recovery from that divorce and helped me through it, I guess Dallas, my best friend, he was kept saying to me, we went to La La Land and he said, you just said to me, you could do that.
And I would like to think so because I loved it and he was like, yeah, you can totally do that because I'd always directed with a partner called Daniel Eskil. That's who I directed all my music videos. So I wasn't sure if I was really a director or was I just an artist with good ideas. But it turned out Lena Dunham and Dallas, they said to me, you can do it, you can do it. We, like you, be able to do it.
And because of who they are to me, good friends that I trust. I guess they gave me the self-esteem that I was lacking, and so I called up Vincent Landay, who had been producing these produce nearly all of Spike Jones's movies, and he's one of my favorite directors and done adaptation and Being John Malkovich and said, can we try again? Because we we talked before. And he said, yes, OK. And also someone like maybe three people had said to me, also, you're an idiot.
You've got to turn it into a musical. You're such an idiot. It's like having a blank Scrabble piece and not using it. You are an idiot. And so finally I finally I caved. And, you know, and of course, then the budget we like went from four million to six million or so.
But I did a good deal. I just I got to two record labels in a bidding war and then for my albums. And then I just said, whoever's going to lend me 60 million is who I'm going to go with those guys.
So that's what happened. And I. I love the movie. I'm proud of it. It's it's a beautiful film.
It's it's the name. It's it's called Music to Get. Yeah. And that's actually Mattie Ziegler plays a character called Music, who is a teenager who's suffering severely from autism. And she's got low functioning. She she is non-verbal, although she does have echolalia. So she she can repeat what you say, but she doesn't generate her own vocabulary sentences. So anyway, that was really scary for Maddie. Remember the first day she came back and I cast everyone basically off Twitter, Facebook, who can sing, who can sing, who doesn't sing like of like a Y like like musical theater major who thing.
When I basically just tweeted the people I want to my movie, I said yes and then and I and then Maddie was really scared because I based the character on a guy called Stevie who I used to sit next to, and I needed him on Sunday mornings, little Kevin, his mother was the deaf interpreter. And so he obviously himself was an addict. But he was in there with her because she couldn't afford care for him while she worked. And I fell in love with Stevie.
I and I sat next to him and I don't know, I just I fell in love with him and I had already had this story in my head. And so the character was always suffering from autism in my or suffering or alone flourishing from autism, depending on how you view it. And then, yeah, when I met Steve, I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, so beautiful and perfect and I love him. And so I taught Maddie all of his mannerisms and his vocalizations and and she got scared.
She got scared. I remember the first day that her and Kate Hudson were going to come to rehearsal and she got there. So I bought a house across the road for her to live in temporarily because she was always here in town doing auditions and things like that. I didn't think I had always been different, my toes and stuff like that. So so she came over across the road and she got home.
She came over and I could see something was up and I said, what's going on? And she burst into tears and she said, I'm just scared. I don't want anyone to think I'm making fun of. And she is such a sensitive, beautiful person and I just said, I will never let that happen. I will not let that happen. I will if you can. And you can have final say over the top, but I will never let that happen.
And then we spent three days working on all of Steve's utterances and vocalizations and tics and movements and and so, yeah, I got so I have Stevie to thank for this amazing character that you see in the movie. And then inside of her head takes place all these musicals where she's burdened by any of her physical disabilities, the ticks and the pain and the and so she is her body is free from from from autism and and all the associated than collection of things that you can have.
And everyone with autism is different. Every single one. There's no to that other life. So when we sent it off to the Child Mind Institute to make sure that we had done a good job representing the autism community. I was really hopeful that we've done a good job of felt proud, I thought we had, but they came back with one hundred of one hundred percent approval. And that to me was the day that I cried and felt relief and thought, OK, I've made a movie that's meaningful and that is interesting and moving and fun and fun.
And that's what I wanted to do. So, you know, it's definitely it's it's like you bring your Kleenex, but you you get you help. You get your Hollywood endings. So don't worry.
Congratulations. It sounds like a real is the hardest thing I've ever. A real journey. A real journey.
I think that's why I was so good in bed for three years.
What keeps you what what what keeps you going? What gives you the most energy these days? I mean, you've you've seemingly ticked off nearly every professional accolades and success you could ever want.
Yeah, I've got no go on just being a muscle. I just adopted two kids. How did you decide to do that? I saw one of them of I'll tell you, I'm so obsessed with television. That's why I'm friends with the Kardashians, like Kathy Griffin. And like my my interior designer was on million dollar, like designers or whatever on Bravo, like my friends with Bethenny Frankel, for fuck's sake. Like I'm I'm into reality TV and I basically audition all my friends through reality TV to decide whether or not that is life or not.
And then I go and find them and ask them to be my friends. So and then I've got my regular friends, my regular circle of friends, but I'm only friends, the only celebrities. I'm really friends with our reality TV star.
So when you say safe, that just means that they're they're so aware of the public and exposed to the public that nothing weird related to you or obviously even fame will happen, not just psychologically not fucked, but it's not going to happen that they're just good, like they're good, well-meaning people.
And how do your kids how did how does the adoption fit into this?
Oh, well, yeah. How does it affect you mentioned somehow.
Oh yes. So I saw. That's exactly right. So I saw I was watching a documentary on HBO, i.e. reality TV, but it was about the foster care system. And I saw Boyle in there and he was 16 at the time and I feel I can be his mother. And what a hilarious overstatement that was. And I found him. I found him. And he was 18 by the time I found him and I met him and he said, Can I bring my friend?
He won't make it is too pretty. And I too is too pretty. Oh, pretty. Yeah. And and I said, yeah, because I had to spare bedrooms and and I like an absolute maniac to come home that day. And we were both I think at the time and the last year has just been an absolute roller coaster, but just the most rewarding and the best, best thing ever. You know, like being a mummy, like a God mummy to marry is like what has been the most meaningful thing to me over the last.
So what is six, seven years? And now being a mummy to my boys is now the most meaningful thing to me. But that's all I got. I don't care about anything else. I just want to make sure that I don't end up in the five percent that end up because they statistically should be end up in jail for murder and with the histories that they have, the trauma histories they have. And I want to keep that up. I want to fuck the system.
The system is fucked. And I'll help keep them out of jail, so then they could change the world. Well, thank you for doing that. It's something that I can't even I can't put myself in your shoes, of course. I mean, it must be such a. Multifaceted, emotional experience, some of my closest friends have adopted kids, and actually one woman I'm very close to had a somewhat similar situation in the sense that they she and her partner were planning on adopting one child and they came home with three and then they write a movie about it.
And Mark Wahlberg that this was different, different couple, but similar idea.
And it's a parenting parenting, I would imagine, a lot of kids of my own, but it seems like the most rewarding and most difficult job imaginable and all the more so I would imagine when you are picking up where the system has left off, I imagine I mean, I have a newfound, complete, like newfound respect for all parents.
And like I said, I feel like I'm lucky because they they I mean, they have structure, but they have trauma. So my job now is to use what I've learned in my attachment repair therapy, as George has, and use that with them to create a secure base for them and to help them, their brains to neuroplasticity, their brains to be able to become secure as well. That's my only goal at the moment, is to help my children and secure attachment because they've been at least 18 different kinds of.
Yeah, and it and we've been treated abominably and, yeah, just really so I'm just lucky that I have the resources that I can kind of help that I needed. And I'm sure and I'm grateful that it would be easier for me to, like, get them on board. No, but incredible. It was a tough year, but I bet I was in L.A. Ninja.
We'll see. I know we're coming up on time here. I mean, we don't know each other that well, but the little the little contact that we have had, I've really enjoyed. I love your work. I enjoy your work. I enjoy you and what you're doing in the world. People can find you on Twitter at Seah, the best handle ever. Now, Instagram is at Siete music. Of course, I'll link to everything that we.
I don't I mean, I occasionally tweet, but I don't really run into. Is there more marketing? You're being very nice.
Thank you for not mentioning them. And also, you know, I just realized, as I'm looking at my hands right now that I do know the difference between supine and prone, because when you're doing a chin up and your palms are facing you, that's supination, which you can remember because you could put soup in your hands to eat it with your palms up. And then when you have your hands facing down or a way that's pronation. So if you're lying on your stomach, that would be prone.
And if you're laying on your back, that would be super. Just to come full circle and supine.
This learning, I don't care if I'm wrong, is is there anything else that you'd like to to say before we bring to a close this first conversation on the podcast?
No, I just I mean, I feel like we could talk for seven hours.
I bet we could have, but we could we definitely could. Thank you for all the good things that you're bringing to the world. And it really, really interesting and broad coverage of, you know, what's globally of importance. I guess I appreciate what you think you know.
Yeah, I really appreciate it. And I appreciate you taking the time. So thank you.
Thank you. Thank you once again. Of course.
And hopefully once this pesky virus gets handled, we'll have a chance to actually spend time in person at some point.
Yeah, that's awesome. I'll bring down. I would love it, I would love it, and to everybody listening, we will link to everything in the show notes, all of the resources, all of the concepts, the movie, certainly all of the handles, everything you can imagine. We will link to you in the show notes a teamed blog for Slash podcast. As usual, you can just search CYO. It's very memorable, very easy to spell, and I would imagine almost every language.
So you'll be able to find it at Timba blog and until next time.
Thanks for tuning in.
Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. No. One, this is five Black Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? And would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Pfeifle of Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week that could include favorite new albums that I've discovered.
It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up into the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I have read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to four hour work week dotcom.
That's four hour work week dot com all spelled out. And just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn jobs. Small businesses have unique needs. A lot of you know this, I know this. And even with the uncertainty these days, one thing stands unchanged and that is the importance of having the right people on your team.
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