Hello, boys and girls, this is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show. This is an addition, a special edition of the random show with my close friend Kevin Rose, well-known investor, serial entrepreneur and all around Good Guy, who's my friend. And we have an important preface and important caveat, an important disclaimer before we get started. And here it is provided from my lovely lawyers. Here we go. I am not an investment adviser, nor is Kevin Ross.

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At this altitude I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question now? It is. I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue, metal, and this go to Paris, so. Welcome to another episode of the random show. This is episode number seven thousand four hundred ninety six Camisoles.

Chris, good to see you, my friend, you, too. You two been too long. When was the last time we actually saw each other in person? You're important. It would have been in Portland one hundred years ago because it was simultaneous with a I think it was actual love festival where you had hundreds of people just smothering each other with body contact, one another with body contact. So that is a pretty covid activity.

Yes, it's probably a year and a half ago, huh? It's been about that. And it's crazy sad. It is. It's wild. And what I'm reassured to see is you have your your Japanese podcasting robe on and you seem to have new eyeshadow or mascara, which really brings out your eyes.

It's called it's called five hours of sleep. So it's called babies is what it is.

Well, like it. You're converging with the raccoon gods that you get so long ago by tossing one of their brethren downstairs. For people who want that security footage, you can search Kevin Rose, raccoon and old pup.

You're determined to make that like what's on my grave. Like what I'm best known for is the reaction to your Wikipedia legacy. I want it in the first paragraph.

So we we shared a Google spreadsheet that you created beforehand of things we might talk about. I'm sure we'll talk about all sorts of stuff. Where do you want to start, man?

Yeah, I mean, we can start with the Bitcoin stuff because you were super excited about that, which is odd because you're typically not like the biggest I've never seen you is like a hardcore crypto guy.

I would definitely not self-described as a hardcore crypto guy at all. I just happen to have this combination of ignorance and laziness which led me to hold on to the Bitcoin that I had. Oh, so you're stoked.

That's why I'm like, why is Tim so excited about this? Because you have a boatload of money right now. Well, I'm in a boat.

It's a boatload, but I've I've held on to it. I mean, look, anyone who is holding just to put a time stamp in this, it's January 8th. Twenty twenty one Bitcoin, I believe, for the first time ever, just crossed forty thousand dollars per Bitcoin.

He was 40 when he was born and. Yeah. Yeah. So anyone who has ever bought Bitcoin to the unexamined or unexamined guy looks like a complete genius. Right. But it's not possible that everyone bought Bitcoin for the right reasons or through the right process. But nonetheless, here we are. And it's exciting to watch even if it may implode. And people are drawing comparisons and certainly pointing out the differences between twenty seventeen and now where we saw this huge spike several years ago and then a consequent crash.

Now, I think that's happened several times now. It's happened several times. And I should also point out that I got into crypto in a meaningful way right before that crash in twenty seventeen. So if I had consequently sold all of it, I would have done so at a pretty massive loss. And I was like, well, look, I'm playing with house money in the sense that I can afford to lose whatever I am putting into crypto, so I'll just hold on to it.

And the premise, the premise that I used or the set of assumptions I used to get into crypto ended up being totally wrong in a lot of ways, at least in the sense that I was investing in crypto as a as a hedge specifically against, say, a huge drop in the stock market since I had a few different pending IPOs and so on with with the Uber IPO, basically. Yeah, exactly. And so I made a bunch of very tenuous leaps of faith in my logic to look for different ways to to hedge against the possibility that a market collapse could drag Uber down with it.

Right. So nothing stock specific, meaning nothing uber specific in that case. And I mean, you literally could have just hedged the market at the same time.

Yeah, I mean, look, you could I could have hedged the market.

I don't know much about shorting or hedging or anything like that. And when I looked at it, even in a cursory way, looking at the stuff that's allowed no great stuff, it seemed very expensive to do it effectively. And so I decided to become involved with crypto also because if you're in. Certain social circles with certain very smart people, yourself included, I mean, you've you've played a lot in the crypto sandbox, so I want to hear from you more than me.

It's easy to get intoxicated and it's easy to kind of walk into this reality distortion field where you're like. You know, the world is going to Mad Max in the next 48 hours and crypto will be all this survives. Not saying that's your argument, but the point I wanted to make is that if you look at the timeline, so 2000 17 boom. Right. The sort of tulip bulb craze of crypto at the time, sort of tanks or at least Bitcoin, and this time around with covid, a lot of Bitcoin balls and so on, were expecting that Bitcoin, which would be inversely correlated with these crashes and it would shoot through the roof.

But that's not what happened, right? Not what happened with gold either. And I think what was underestimated. Was how many people would need cash, right, and when you need cash, you sell whatever you happen to have. And if if you have, for instance, as a lot of people got themselves into trouble by borrowing against assets, so they took out, say, lines of credit based on the value of their stocks. And then when the stocks cratered, those all got called.

And, you know, bankers and everyone else calling up, you know, Joe Smith and Joe Smith, we want all our money right now. And they had to sell anything they could sell that was liquid and that would include a lot of crypto. So it took a few months for crypto to recover to pre covid, whereas gold kind of took off immediately after covid. It did drop in the very short term, like the kind of early March to early April and then kind of pickup.

It wasn't a big run up, though.

We never saw kind of massive like the crypto like gains that we've seen with Bitcoin. Right. Gold's picked up a bit, but not not a ton.

No, not that much. And I'm referring gold specifically for people interested. But what are what are your thoughts right now on all this crypto mania? I mean, there are differences, huge differences between right now and 2017, namely, the entry of at least one of them is the entry of institutional investors. And yes, just a few months ago, Paul Tudor Jones and some other legends kind of dipping their toe in the water and beginning to make some allocations in their portfolios fund portfolios, which is a big difference, not just personal.

I believe that's true. Somebody can fact check me.

But what do you make of all this? This is a terrain that you're much more familiar with then? Yeah, I am.

Here's my take. Is that with any new crazy, wild idea, come just a ton of skeptics, as there should be.

And when Bitcoin was was first launched and we were all playing around with the very early wallets and I remember just buying coins and picking them up. And I wasn't really early early like I wasn't, you know, the pennies, but I was buying them around ten, twelve dollars a coin, something like that. And, you know, it was it was the Wild West. It was very difficult to do anything to to buy crypto to you know, we were all setting up mining rigs back then and trying to mind our own Bitcoin.

And then eventually pools came out so you could join in with other people to do it more efficiently. But this is fresh new technology that hadn't been hammered and beaten on. And so, you know, any time there's something that is directly linked to your finances, it takes years or decades for people to get comfortable with a new emerging technology to where they'll commit any serious capital to that technology. So I think largely what we're seeing here is, well, one, it's it's you know, there's a lot of stimulus money hitting the market.

There's a lot of people buying on square cash out. There's you know, it's much easier to purchase Bitcoin than it has ever been. You know, it used to be you have to go to some shady exchange somewhere, hold up a picture of your driver's license with, like, literally you're like date written underneath it to make sure it was you like shady stuff that I've been on some of the exchanges. My ID has since been hacked on many of these exchanges.

Thankfully, I don't live with any of those addresses that I had, those ideas I was holding up front of the camera. But I do get text messages, people trying to fish me all the time, like trying to, like, get me to lie. So creepy. It's so crazy. It happens at least twice a week. It's insane because my my information's out there, so whatever. But the point being is that it was extremely difficult to purchase Bitcoin.

And now, you know, people came online just a couple of months ago and is offering the ability to purchase Bitcoin and Ethereum directly inside of PayPal. Like it's just insane how easy this is now. So you're unlocking massive customer bases like hundreds of millions of users with PayPal. You know, square cash is the I think the second or third largest buyer now of Bitcoin that is on the retail side.

Right. This is just on the retail side. Yeah.

So that's not even talking about the institutional money going in. Right. So, you know, I work at True Ventures venture capital firm, several billion dollars under management. We have positions in Bitcoin. You know, we've been doing that for a while.

So when you say you guys have positions in Bitcoin, that means you've invested in startups that focus on Bitcoin.

No, that means we actually own Bitcoin. How does that work as a venture capital fund? You're operating the private endowment. Yeah, I mean, every fund is a little bit different.

You know, in our specific case there, we have allocated as part of our, you know, formation documents for the fund, a certain percentage of the fund can be in cryptocurrency or cryptocurrency related companies. So we can say, I'm just throwing out a random number. I'd have to go look at the docks, see what the actual number is. But let's say 10, 15 percent of the fund overall fund size, you know, we have 600 million plus fund that.

That you can only invest that much from this specific fund into cryptocurrency, and so, you know, if we're going to go in to do a purchase, typically dollar cost average your way in over a couple of months and and buy in and in a place that that has really strong security. Like, we don't hold this ourselves.

It's not at our office like you're using like there's there's big financial houses like Fidelity and Quimby's, Cassidy and others that now provide these types of services. You don't just have a bunch of hardware wallets sitting in your jacket pocket.

Yeah, it's right here. Just in my house. No, I don't. I actually I don't I don't mess with that stuff anymore. I used to have wallets and I actually had a laptop that I would I bought specifically for cryptocurrency. And I wanted to keep it in cold storage, meaning that I back in the day when I was doing the craziest, like coins you've never heard of on these weird exchanges, I went out, I bought a laptop.

It was an Apple, hooked it up to the Internet, did all the software updates, like just put the walls on there, transfer the funds and then immediately powered it down so that it wouldn't be online anywhere hackable and then put it in a safe. And that was the way I kept my cryptocurrency. It's crazy. Crazy, but but yes.

So there's been enough time has gone on. This current run up, though, is just nuts. I mean, the thing you have to do with all these things is just don't look at the last three months because it looks like a decent graph. You're like, oh, that looks reasonable. Maybe I should buy, but I look at the last five.

Yeah, yeah. We get to the five year view, the ten year view. That's when you see really what's happening here. And it's it's not even like a hockey stick. It's like it's even more it's like insane how the run up has been. And so I get nervous when you see, you know, it's always a good Tarl around. Well, in this case, it was like the virtual Christmas or Thanksgiving dinner when Uncle Harry is asking you if they should be buying Bitcoin.

Like, that's what I like. My my Spidey sense tingles a little. Bhandarkar, everybody wants this now, you know, and it's just if I were going to enter the market now, I would do it in a way that is you pick the dollar amount, let's say it's a thousand dollars. And this is not investment advice. I'm just telling you what I would do, pick a thousand dollars. I'd say, OK, I want to own Bitcoin.

I believe in the future Bitcoin. I think this isn't going away, which is all those things are true. And they are things that I believe it's a proven technology. Now let's take a thousand dollars and invest it over six months. And so just divide it up by six and then do those. I say the first of every month and just go in. Does it matter what the price is? You don't care is by that set amount. And that way, you know, at least you're averaging your way in over over six months.

How do you personally think about crypto for yourself as part of your portfolio or percentage of your total? I mean, you're kind of famous for telling not famous. Well, you're famous to me for telling me when I should buy stuff and then not telling you when you've sold stuff, which I which I appreciate.

So call, by the way you like, are used to hold this.

I'm like, no, I sold it for like a 10x like six months ago and you're like, I'm down.

Or something bad will happen.

You'll be screwed by the fact that we didn't talk.

Yeah, that happens with some fair frequency.

But what is what what is your current thinking in terms of cryptocurrency? You steering clear? Do you do use do you still have a certain position? Is it an investment for you? Is it an insurance policy for you? Some people have drawn that distinction just sort of philosophically as looking at cryptocurrency as an insurance policy.

I hedge. I think that over time as well. A few things. One, let's just talk about the ecosystem in general. I think the ninety nine percent still today of the coins that you see on the market out there are just garbage, I think a lot of them.

And it's hard for them really to go away. They're just the volumes of the volume and trades that happened is decrease over time. But they still have these, you know, somewhat impressive looking market caps. This sitting out there, very stagnant. Developers kind of drop off. It's just kind of like the left for dead, but they're still around.

So there's a lot of that, a lot of interesting innovation happening in the kind of decentralized finance space. They call it DFI. It's mostly happening on Ethereum. There's a handful of projects where I say that's really interesting. It's almost like an an angel investment.

Now, I want to hold some of that, but with the understanding that this could go to 10 percent of the value it is today and so extremely high risk, but, you know, still has the ability to have a 50 upside. Right. So or at least a twenty or thirty X upside. If you just look at the market cap of Bitcoin today, there's not another twenty or thirty X anytime soon. Coming to the Bitcoin is just too big.

Right. Like the market cap is just too large. You'd be.

Why do you now how do you come to that conclusion? Well, I mean, first of all, there's a few ways you can do it. I think that you just have to look at the market cap in general, which I don't have in front of me right now, but I can. I can type it in, the other thing is just look at the proxies for this, so like what is the market cap of gold, right? Of all gold out there and it's in the trillions.

Let me see here if I did this the other day. So Bitcoin right now, the market cap is eighty two point four nine billion. So, you know, where would we be at if that's a 10 from now?

Like, I mean, that's just insanity. That's that's I can't imagine that happening any time soon. It would just now that's insane because of the comparables that you might put next year. I mean, Apple is worth two trillion.

Right. And so, you know, you just kind of have to. And I know it's not the same in that we're not talking about corporations here with with, you know, cash flows and PEs and things that we would typically use to to to value a company that is not this. The closest proxy that I think most people draw the comparison to is to just gold. You know what what is how much gold has been mined? How much do we believe is there in the earth?

What are people holding for an investment? How much of it is actually being worn? Like there's a lot of other ways. So there is a lot of potential upside in Bitcoin. But I don't think, you know, for me, I it's not that I wouldn't hold that. I would definitely hold it. I think it's going to be a rocky, bumpy ride given the run up that's had recently like it's been forever. Like this has always been the case of Bitcoin.

It's been very bumpy, but the new low is higher than the last low. And it just continues to kind of like it wouldn't surprise me to see this drop down to twenty five or thirty again, but I don't think it's going to get back to ten and there's just too many institutional buyers coming in. So I like it because there are a lot of governments, the US included are probably one of the biggest offenders just printing money right now. It's really hard to understand what the value of a dollar is or what it will be in the future.

This is a fixed number of coins forever that will never change. It's universally accepted, you know, even more so every month all over the world. So it's kind of a global reserve currency that I'm comfortable with. So I do like it for that. Now, I think there's a lot of new interesting projects that I probably have more upside.

That also require more due diligence and expertise, perhaps more attention to detail. So let's if we talk about Bitcoin just to continue on this thread, it's currently at let's just call it 40000 dollars of Bitcoin.

And you were saying, well, it's hard to see a 20 X upside if we look at proxies or comparisons to gold or certainly if we draw comparisons to Apple, that's a little bit categorically, I guess, a different comparison.

But if we're looking at certain. Trends or growth trends that have been accelerated thanks to or due to covid, if we look at, say, Amazon or Shopify or Peloton, you know, companies that were both quite familiar with and or investors in a lot has been accelerated. And the growth trajectory of the graph has changed dramatically for for a lot of companies versus companies, adoption of remote work, et cetera.

Could someone make an argument that that is why in part, at least, we are seeing this adoption of. Bitcoin and that it is on some level reasonable or I guess in your mind when you're thinking of how much this price can be explained via factors, external happenings, storming the capital, et cetera, certainly, you know, NMT and all this kind of stuff versus just pure mania. Right. Because the the Bitcoin bulls, well, will sort of lay out often regurgitated but sometimes cogent arguments for why this is explainable and reasonable.

And then the bears will say, here's the the tulip bulb craze of such and such a year, and this is exactly what's happening. It's just pure mania. There's nothing to it besides greed and human psychology run amuck. Where do you fall in thinking about explaining the price? Because if you look at institutional adoption, we're still super early in instant, super early and institutional adoption. And by institutional, I mean there are wide ranges of institutions. And certainly I think at the more conservative end, if we're talking about endowments and pension funds and so on, it's super early, not to mention sovereign wealth funds and so on, the really like gigantic kind of nation state players.

So. Yeah, what do you think I mean, from an institutional adoption perspective, it's super, super early.

That does not mean, though, that the tiny amount of adoption up to this point plus square plus people have organically produced forty thousand dollars per Bitcoin prices.

Right. That's that's a lot of word salads just throughout at your face.

So maybe you can speak to that. Well, I think that it is really hard if you look at the people that are actually looking at the block chain and watching where assets are moving, some promising and also some really scary things start to emerge. And so I think the promising side is just the average consumer now has access to purchases within just a couple of clicks and Apple Pay and everything else, like that's the ease of purchases. Gone, as we mentioned earlier, is just simple now.

So that has unlocked certainly a lot of demand, especially around a hype cycle. We know about the institutional side. I agree with you that it's very early days there and there has been several proposals and there are new ones out there for a Bitcoin ETF. I think that happens and we start seeing these appear and people's four one K accounts and things just go bonkers.

The scary side of things is some of the price manipulation that's going on. And so, you know, there are ways to manipulate the price. And this is well, I'll bring it up in with the caveat that it's being talked about on the Internet. So I'm bringing up here. It is not my view that this is happening, but it is being talked on the Internet. So it's worth mentioning.

So I say that from a news perspective, not from an accusatory perspective, and that is that there are not a lot of preamble for Kevin Rudd to say that because I don't want them to come after me.

And they just basically.

So so there's there's a there's a stable coin out there when I mean, stable home for those people who don't know, there are a bunch of coins out there that you can hold as cryptocurrency that are pegged to an asset like a fiat asset that we know which say the US dollar. So if you hold USD sees what it's called the coin and you hold one of those coins, it is worth one dollar and that never changes, just pegged at that price.

And so there are a bunch of these and one of the larger ones is called Teather. And so Teather is we don't have. Well, here's the thing. There's been some analysis of some of these transactions. And Teather, if you can imagine, if you control and it is centralized, if you control the way the Teather is supposed to work is this if you send Teather a thousand dollars, they issue you a thousand dollars worth of Teather coins.

Right. That's makes sense. If you go to redeem them, they give you back the thousand dollars. Right. And so it kind of grew and well, I shouldn't say kind of it's massive now.

And let me ask a novice question. What is the use case for that? Why would someone do that? They want a mobile. They want stability. They want stability. Yeah.

So imagine you're sending your aunt in Costa Rica. One hundred dollars. You want to make sure one hundred dollars gets there. Not ninety two dollars because bitcoin dropped. You know, or maybe she'd like if it went up. But you know, it's like it's you need the stability and you can also be used for a whole slew of other things to do, lending with it or interest on it. That's what a lot of the decentralized finance comes from anyway.

So Teather Coins, for example, is one of the first ones, one of the first stable coins, and it has a twenty three point nine three billion dollar market cap. Now, there are currently some ongoing investigations into what's going on behind the scenes at Teather because there are some allegations that they're just issuing new Teather and buying Bitcoin without there being the reserve USD to actually back it up.

So there's been a handful of articles you can search Teather, whatever you want to call it, like scandal or whatever you may be into Google News. And you'll see that people are looking at this and saying, huh? And there's several organizations like government organizations that are looking at this and they're saying, OK, we need to peer inside here and make sure everything is kosher, because if it's not, they could be just propping up the Bitcoin market and buying Bitcoin with fake minted teather stable coins.

And if that's the case. And that comes out, it's going to be a shit show for a few days. The best way I could do you think? Yeah, that's probably a good description, this shit show. Do you think not knowing anything about it, that they have sufficient volume? To prop up, so to speak, the Bitcoin price or to inflate it well, I mean, just give us a sense in the last 24 hours, they've done one hundred and fourteen point three, one billion in volume.

It's heavily used on on some exchanges. Some exchanges won't touch it. There's there's some change that you won't even you can't even purchase tother if you wanted to.

So it is the one piece that I look at and I just say, gosh, I don't like where this is trending.

And some of the people that are looking into this, this could really put a big black eye on the market. It doesn't mean that Bitcoin is a fraud. It has nothing to do with Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a legitimate technology that works well. It's well secured. It's been hammered on like there's this. I mean, this doesn't mean Bitcoin goes away, but it does mean that there's a book that spooked the hell out of lots of people.

It's a lot of people. And it also shuts down ETF talks and all those other things, because a lot of the reasons why these ETFs for Bitcoin aren't being approved is because of these claims of this type of market manipulation. So it's but to your earlier you ask around, like, what do you how do you think it is when it comes to portfolio construction?

And again, I'm a venture capitalist, not a registered investment advisor. This is not a financial advice. But for me personally, I think informational purposes only.

This is informational and entertainment purposes.

Tim says that, oh, you bastard.

You're going to cut that out, you rat bastard. Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Navigator. LinkedIn Sales Navigator is the best version of LinkedIn for sales professionals. Get ready to exceed your 2021 sales goal with the help of LinkedIn Sales Navigator. That's what it's built for. The best salespeople know the closing deals is about understanding your customers needs and building relationships.

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So basically, I would say for me personally, I think, OK, maybe up to five percent of my overall portfolio and consider it super high risk.

But I like your strategy, Tim. It's like you. It's kind of one you have to take with cryptocurrency. If this gets cut in half or cut in three quarters, you just have to say, OK, bad day, bad week, bad month and just ride it out for the next 10 years because, you know, in 10 years it will bounce back and the returns are going to look better than ever. So, you know, that's kind of how you have to play it.

Yeah.

And it's it's a test of conviction and process also. Right.

In the sense that I've been talking to, you know, friends and like you sort of the kind of Uncle Harry equivalents are like, I want to put money into Bitcoin a theory. And I'm like, can you tell me what Bitcoin is? And they can't even hazard a guess. It's just something that's going up in value very quickly. And the.

Sort of an observation I've made because usually. Is your uncle actually, Harry, I want to throw this guy under the bus that's made up. OK, good. OK, so OK, so Uncle Harry usually will have a story that is something like this.

My friend Bob has invested in Krypto and over the last seven months he's made let's just make up a number, you know, 500000 dollars. And my question is always, did he sell all of his Bitcoin and pull out five hundred thousand dollars? And the answer is no. And my my follow up to that is well. It all looks good on paper, but if it's not enough to just buy something that is going up in value, unless you believe it's going to go up in value indefinitely, you also have to have a plan for if and when you were going to sell that asset and redeem.

Now, some pure believer are true believers would say you never sell Bitcoin and that's one option. But unless unless you have deliberately, conscientiously decided that and you have that as a bulletproof emotion proof strategy, you sure as hell better have a plan for if and when you are going to redeem to some type of fiat.

And if you don't have a defined time horizon, the likelihood of you losing money because you sell in a panic when it plummets is pretty goddamn high.

That's why I like the lower percentage points of your overall portfolio, because it has to be money that doesn't matter. So you can hold it for the long term if you want to hold it for the next 20 years. But I guess what you're saying is it does get to meaningful money at some point, right? Because naturally, if it if it does five X from here to next from here, then it's going to be no longer five percent of your portfolio.

Right. So in that case, like, I would force myself to every year or every other year just rebalance so that if you do, you actually do that, though, because there are entrepreneurs.

You do. I don't count on. OK, all right. So you so now you would do that regardless of the the duration of holding that investment, or do you wait for long long term cap gains? Right. I mean, like I said, I would wait for long term gains unless it is something just absolute bonkers.

So if it's if it's absolute bonkers and you're just like I mean, look at Tesla right now, just like look at that chart. Click on the five year and you're Apple stocks app. Is it just like you're like, how is it not bending over?

I feel like I should fall backwards.

As far as I can see. It's ridiculous.

And so you if I'm if I'm holding short term cabinet there, I just want to point out that you're also you are also a lover of Tesla products. Right. So, like you're not saying this is as a Tesla hater. You love their stuff. I have. I have. Listen, I have two Tesla. They're fantastic vehicles. They're they're my favorite.

I have a truck on order. I can't wait to get that thing. And yet when it's a straight line.

Yeah, yeah. So it's you know, it's just one of those things where if it is getting an outsized percentage of your portfolio, then it's just it's absolutely smart. And I kind of have this thing where I mean, we talked about I think you and I traded some techs on this, but we talk about just like your overall mixture of of assets in everything that you kind of put together, like what is your allocations for multiple things look like.

And I'm most of my stuff is just fully diversified. Set it and forget it forever. Like wealth, front style. Just put it in there and have it be fully diversified and safe. And then I have a category that is like let's just call it twenty five percent of my overall assets that I'll say these are five capable stocks or greater. And those I know they're super risky, well somewhat risky and they have real cash flow and all that.

But I'm, I'm going to invest in those I put like, you know, Pelton's in that kind of camp. Some of them were riskier stuff like the Neo's, like the Chinese, Tesla, you know, a few other things that I've bought over the last couple of years.

So, you know, but then then always going and pruning and readjusting and saying, oh, actually, my five stocks are now 40 percent of my portfolio. Let's trim that back to twenty five. Yeah.

I appreciated your strong buy recommendation on PornHub. That was, that was genius.

Well you're for that. You're co-owner now which is odd, but it's it's your thing. The acro yoga.

I'm on the team, I'm on the team tab in a free premium for the next two months is coach Tim.

Tim, Tim, Tim, Kev, Kev. I really hope they make that call. That is, that is a joke.

People joke, joke, joke, joke. Kev.

Now I had a follow to that. Oh. The follow up was really more a commentary because I think some people will be very interested in this conversation and others will will find it inside baseball or just they'll think that it's kind of. RARIFIED air investment talk, and I would say on one level, agree with that and on one level disagree with that because. We're sitting here at the beginning of twenty twenty one, twenty twenty has been such a fascinating and punishing laboratory for looking at the consequences of good and bad decisions and.

There are many places where it's difficult in many ways to quantify those. Upsides and downsides and risks, certainly with covid, with certain information available, other information unavailable or pending. It's been challenging, but one of the playing fields in which you can look at decision making is sort of a microcosm of the macro. Right?

Like you get to see how decision making that transcends investing shows itself with stocks, crypto, whatever it might be.

Right. In other words, if you are able to observe and hone your decision making with even very small investments, I believe that that transfers into if you're if you're self-aware, that can transfer into better decision making in other areas. Right. Because we're all investors of time, energy, capital, and you can choose to become better at those things or you can remain blissfully unaware. But one way or another, you are making decisions about investment every day.

So that's that's another reason why I've paid attention to this a lot in the last year. I mean, I think there have been some incredible opportunities also in the last 12 months. But more than that, it's just a lens through which you can look at. How rational you are, how subject to emotional swings and corresponding bad decisions you are, and it tells you a lot about how you might make decisions or more concretely, make rules for yourself in 20, 21.

So can you give me an example of that? Like, I'm really curious, outside of finance, how do you apply this to other areas of your life?

Well, this, for instance, in twenty twenty one of the biggest lessons or takeaways that I had for myself in investing that I'll talk about how I would apply that is that this is going to sound so rudimentary. But, you know, I've I've been very lucky and also, I think, very good at picking things to invest in overtime. Right. If you just look at the last 10 years, 12 years netnet things have worked out pretty well.

And there are a lot of circumstances there, certain trends that I accidentally took advantage of, some that I deliberately took advantage of, a bla bla bla bla bla. I'm pretty good at placing bets. I am very weak, I would say, on exit strategy and knowing when to get out of positions. And this past year I realized that three years looking at a three year time horizon for anything publicly traded seems to be a incredibly comfortable for me in the sense that I can't predict what things you're going to do, what what companies are going to do, what in the next three months, six months.

I have no fucking idea. No idea. Right. I mean, there just so many curveballs that can be served to any company. Five years.

I mean, jeez, five years now we're talking about like Google starting to usurp Yahoo! Right? I mean, that's like a long enough period of time, especially with exponentially developing technologies that five years is very hard to call.

But like three years, if I'm looking at certain types of companies that I feel like I understand pretty well, Amazon, Shopify would be two examples. I think Spotify also I'm investors in all those four. And again, this is not investment advice.

I don't know how many times we have to say this to cover our asses, but this is you know, your mileage may vary. And I only invest in things that I feel like I really, really understand deeply. Yes. And I'm the same way.

Yeah. So three years I'm looking at certain trends. I have an audience, fortunately, and a lot of friends who are kind of the tip of the spear with early adoption. Not all of those things work out. But when you see then it begin to kind of hop like hop the fence from, say, my friends or my audience to people one degree removed.

I'm like, OK, that that I think is worth paying a lot of attention to. That is that has been a a new rule that I have established for myself, specifically for publicly traded equities and the way that that's applied to my life more broadly.

And we're going to we're going to don't worry, folks are going to get to other points besides crypto and investing is looking at, you know, doing a full review of twenty twenty and then looking for twenty twenty one, thinking out three years as opposed to just 20, 21, and thinking about what types of sort of regularly occurring practices I want to have.

And I can give some examples when we get into it over a three year period is is really calming for me I think.

Yeah.

Like ten years, ten years is kind of like I don't know man. I mean, there's just so much that could change.

I mean, who knows if, you know, California, like Texas is going to secede along, like maybe Texas and Montreal will become sister cities and, you know, or whatever sister provinces and they'll secede from the nation.

I'm being a bit ridiculous with that. But like ten years is a long, long time and a lot can happen three years. I just find that to be a very calm place for me when it comes to planning now, but also thinking about personal development and building a family and so on and so forth. So it's kind of like if you were to paddle out in the ocean at like a surf break. Right. You would when you first paddle out, let's just say it's a beach break for simplicity.

You're going to have to get through these these first sets of waves and then you're going to have some calm and then you're going to get to like the outer breakers and you're going to be in the impact zone again. And it's going to be exciting. But it's also can be really stressful. And I fight like three years for me is just kind of comfortably in between those two.

Yeah, I like what you said about also.

Doing these kind of thematic investing where you say, OK, I don't know, I like you, just named off the exact same companies that I pay attention to around e-commerce because like, obviously we know e-commerce is is well, it's more so online these days than ever, but it's still a fraction of in-person commerce. Right. So if we believe that trend is going to continue, which it will, you know, who are the players in that space?

And so rather than say, well, actually, I think it's going to be Amazon and not Shopify or Square, you know, it's like I just would rather own the entire bucket. Right. So, you know, I go and get Amazon, Shopify Square, PayPal, and I think that pretty much covers, you know, the future of payments when I think about, like mobile payments and and just happening on your phone. And eventually when Coinbase goes public, I'll probably pick some of that up as well.

But like just having that and sitting on those and then is watching and kind of as leaders start to merge, kind of dollar cost averaging a little bit more to get a little bit more upside in the in the clear winners. If there are going to be any, then that's that's kind of what what I've done historically that's proved to be pretty successful. Yeah.

And it's you know, we're talking about kind of pickaxes and shovels. Right. I mean, in the sense that a lot of these companies, not all of them, but a lot of these companies offer services that other companies capitalize on or other creators. And my choices also were based on different scenarios related to covid. So it's like, OK, let's say covid like wave a magic wand. It gets solved tomorrow. But we were decimated, behaviors changed, growth trajectories changed for let's just call it severely for like six to 12 months.

OK, what does that look like for an Amazon? What does that look like for Shopify? OK, and then let's say covid continues. Let's say there's a new strain and A, B and C happens. And rather than best case, it's it's it's certainly maybe not worst case, but a terrible case. What does that look like for these various companies? OK, and just came to the conclusion personally that. In most scenarios, you could play out as an exercise, these companies still seem to do well and you have to play out the other side, too, right?

Like what happens once a vaccine happens and subsides? This is why I'm not holding Zoom right now. It may be a great it's a great company, great product. We're using it right now, but it's like it's I just don't see, you know, when people start to return to work, what gets hit the hardest. And so that's that's part of the reason why I missed out on a ton of upside with the climb and rise of Zoom.

But it doesn't pass that post vaccine test. I want to I want to have to believe in my heart of hearts that I will close my eyes and hold this thing for five years and before I do an investment. Otherwise, it's just it's just gambling at that point.

Yeah, well, I mean, it depends on how you define your time horizon and if you have the skills. And the emotional control. Or stoicism to be able to stick to your plan. So for me, one of the reasons I came to three years is, again, five years. I just don't have confidence that I can look into the crystal ball and understand where technology is going to be in five years. There are companies I expect will still be around, certainly.

But let's just take in the case of Spotify, for instance, you know, I looked at Spotify really closely and I'm on Spotify like I understand the technology. I use the product. I saw them investing incredibly heavily in non music, audio content. And certainly at the top of that list in terms of their capital expenditures would be podcasts. And you have Rogan, you've got all these different folks.

And for. Spotify compared to, say, Amazon, there are people who would argue that podcasts are an existential priority, like they have to really heavily invest and be the a player high bidder for a lot of this core talent. And these teams who can create content because their economic model is in some is in some respect dependent on the improved margins through non music audio. Right. Amazon sells everything right. You get Amazon sells a million things and Amazon music.

And, you know, the team who is on podcasts with Amazon is a is a fantastic team. But within Amazon itself, it's hard for me to imagine that that has the same level of urgency and priority that it would have for Spotify, just given the range of options for me. What about Apple?

Yeah, Apple's huge. But Apple also is I think Apple's amazing. They have by far the most market share right now.

And they're also they have I would I would expect like certain constraints, like I don't think they're going to pursue anything incorporating advertising models, at least not in the short term. Right. They just haven't had a lot of luck with that. They don't seem inclined to pursue it. Also, again, just because the what is the lion's share of Apple revenue? I have to imagine it's hardware and apple care and so on.

I mean, the the sort of incremental. Revenue ad is pretty nominal when it is compared to, say, Spotify, who is like absolutely has to make this work.

So for me, I'm like, all right, Apple. Amazon are going to be really deliberate. They're not going to rush, they have endless powder in the keg like they just have. Once they find things that work, they can they can make them ubiquitous.

I think that's going to take time. Is it going to happen in one year? Maybe, but I think pretty unlikely, which is why I think Spotify will continue. I mean, if I had to guess to invest very heavily in trying to solidify their position as the go to platform for sort of talent and content creation within the kind of predefined parameters of non music audio. And so for that reason, this is not the only reason, but for that reason, also looking at potential upside.

Right. I mean, in the sense that, like, if you want Amazon to double, what needs to happen for that to for that to happen. Right. And then if you look at Spotify for Spotify to double what might need to happen in order for that to be the reward that the market and retail investors sort of bestow upon it. And the answer is, I mean, I feel like a lot less needs to happen for Spotify, right?

I'm not saying Spotify would ever do this, but I give Spotify were just a domicile and avoid all of these various problems that they have with their current situation. Not that they would do that, but like certainly there are steps they could take if they needed to that would dramatically change their financials. And again, what the hell do I know? Right. Like, I'm not an analyst, but. Yeah, but this is your world, though.

I mean, podcasting is like that's your DNA. So I feel like you would. Yeah. A lot when it comes to that. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I just I and I also see and you and I have texted about this where people you wouldn't have expected to use Spotify are now using Spotify. Yeah, right. And it's made that hop over the fence in the United States. In Europe, the behaviors are very different. In Spanish speaking countries and regions.

Spotify is extremely dominant, it would appear, based on polling my own audience and.

Just a lot of there is a lot of room to grow, I think, yeah, I agree with that. Like, I think Spotify is interesting from that standpoint. It is certainly it's a really crappy, razor thin margin business on the music side. Any time they can get you anywhere away from one of the major labels, they're making money. Right, because you're you're paying that 15 dollars a month or whatever it is. Twelve dollars a month.

I just found out they have a I downgraded from the family plan to the duo plan, which is just for two people. So my wife and I just use the do plan to save my bucks myself. Three bucks a month.

Well done. Thank you, Kevin. Thank you anyway. Yes, it's a great product, too. I love the technology and I think that they have invested heavily on the kind of AI machine learning side of things to get recommendation's better than anyone has, which is so key for music discovery. I'm among a fan on that front as well.

Yeah. And one more thing. Yeah. I want to say one more thing on the finance side as well. If I should close off financing and move on, because I know we had a few more topics to hit. But yes, I spent a crap ton of time researching and doing my due diligence on the various financial applications for tracking finances. So I just wanted to share this with people because I let my work benefit you in some way. So, you know, I feel that what I've done is, you know, all of us or most of us, we dabble in a bunch of things, whether it be cryptocurrency or a little bit of like, you know, E-Trade or whatever your brokerage or wealth front or you have a little bit of stuff here.

Maybe you have a home or not or a car payment or not. And I want a universal dashboard to bring all that stuff together. It's like one place where you can see holistically what's going on with all of your finances everywhere, credit cards, all that stuff. And I've tried all of the stuff out there real quick, quick and sucks. It's horrible.

It doesn't work with, like, half the crap out there. I won't buy the wealth front. It won't take a bunch of stuff. It's just horrible. So avoid that at all costs, even though that's like the old school one. That sounds like, oh, maybe, maybe cooking's better now. It's not better. It sucks.

Now I have this theory that a bunch of the Quicken engineers got together and we're like, yeah, this place kind of sucks, but let's go create a new product so quick in came out with a new product that is actually quite good. It says it's called simplify. So it's simplify, money.com simplify. You can just Google. I don't like transplant aways simplify.

It's by the makers of Quicken. So it is actually a fantastic product and it's somehow competing against Quicken, their own product, which is very weird. I think what happened is, as with any old piece of software, you've got an old school audience that's been baked in for decades that if you change any user interface element, they go apeshit and they freak out on you. Right. Like that's the case with why all these software packages, like Word and Excel and others, they just don't turn into bloatware.

You know, you look at them, you're like, why so many icons? It is because people will complain. If you remove anything, it's always hard to take features out. So this is just a really streamlined, beautiful it's like three bucks a month. It's fantastic. Now, if you don't like this, one thing I do like about this, I'll just tell you one of the features I thought was really cool and I use this for over the holidays, you know how like you go when you return something like you got a sweater, you return it, but you never know if it really hits your account again.

You don't pay attention like it became is a way to say, I return this and notify me when I get the credit back or not. If the credit doesn't come back, I guess I'm just like cool little features like that. So anyway, I was pretty impressed that it does link with a lot of the stuff. Very confusing wildlings with a lot of the places that Quicken doesn't, even though the same company. But anyway, that's that. I think personal capital though is the best one that's out there.

If you use personal capital before. No, I don't use them on the investing side. Like, I don't put my money with them because they also have like an investing thing I use well, front for that. But personal capital in terms of the interface, the holistic interface to bring together all the accounts, it's completely free. You don't have to spend any money on it. And it kind of brings everything into one dashboard for you. So anyway, I've looked at like ten others that I won't even bore you with.

But but those are my my picks for the show suite.

What what now you are how should I put it?

You have a financial dashboard fetish like some people like tentacle porn, some people like like Japanese Japanese coffee, which you also like, but you have a financial dashboard fetish. So what I'm curious about is do you just does it just tickle your balls and you get a little feeling in your butterfly in your mind?

Makes makes it makes you really happy to look at this. Is it just like a Zen garden for you or do you actually learn anything? Does it inform your decisions? Has it changed how you behave in any way? It is. Because what it does is it does a pretty good job at kind of categorizing everything that's going on in my life, and so it has a beautiful cash flow feature where I can see I've spent this much, this was my budget and this is how much income I have coming in.

So I'd like to kind of track that and watch the trends over time.

And overall, net worth is cool because it lets you stay in your house in there, lets you put your cars in there like anything else that you may have, any jewelry, anything. And you can kind of like watch a certain things depreciate or they don't and they go down. It's just like I like the idea of being able to pull all this stuff together and do like one interface. Because if you think about, OK, now I got to go log in to Coinbase now.

I got to go log into wealth front and now I got to go log into my bank to see my checking account when I have a credit card over a chase and I have an Apple pay card and there's a bunch of stuff to check, you know, and and that means in terms of transaction transactions as well, I mean, I've got some fraud on these, be the things where I was like, I didn't buy that. I wouldn't cancel the card.

So just having a way that I can go and every couple of days just see that and just do a quick gut check, like is everything saying here, it's nice and there's no I don't have to log in to multiple places and it's free, so I don't know. It's cool. So you avoid logging into multiple places by giving all of your login information to one entity, or is there some type of auth that allows you to circumvent that like pulser producing centralization, which make me nervous?

Yes.

So plaid is it powers all of this on the back end. So plaid is a company you may or may not have heard of. It was one that we invested in when I was at Google Ventures. They work with all the financial institutions to connect and provide data to apps like Personal Capital. So you're actually not sharing your login credentials with plaid or with personal capital. You're sharing them with plaid plaid, secures them. They issue like a token to personal capital.

So personal capital never actually has your credentials. And then they can view your data that through through that one like secured vault. So it is nice like that. Yeah, I was worried about that as well. So to completely so, I will add one more thing on the finance front, which is I'm fuckin tired of thinking about anything related to finance or investing or that's been you forever, dude.

Yeah. For five years. Yeah, that's true. That's true. But especially especially in the last I would say six to 12 months.

So my one of my goals is to do as much as possible in terms of batching activities or setting rules for myself, like strict rules like Yokine bagel's. I don't need bagel's anyway, although they're delicious, but like making very binary rules for myself, because I think it is very easy.

And if we look at just human behavior, I think it's it's very natural, but often harmful to one's health.

If you have something that is moving up or down or up and down, if you have something easily quantifiable, that to your mind seems like points on the scoreboard, whether positive or negative, it's really easy to spend a lot of time being distracted by these things. And looking at these things, I'm thinking a lot more about energy management over the next year than time management. I feel like time management should be a downstream decision based on your energy management priorities and rules, and that is how I'm approaching it.

So I am hoping to do effectively zero investing unless I have to make defensive moves or disaster befalls me, which I hope will not be the case. So that is all to say. I kind of crammed a lot of decisions because as you know, Kevin, I was sitting on the sidelines since mostly sitting on the sidelines since, I don't know, 2015, with the exception of that Krypto position. And I don't enjoy it in the same way that that some of my friends do.

And maybe you do just the like the tracking of all of it. I think it's more I feel like it's kind of a leaching of energy for me, even though it is very addictive. So I'm looking forward to doing things that have nothing to do with investing. And we were talking about in prep for this conversation, talking about or I guess in the Google spreadsheet talking about this year, meaning twenty, twenty, twenty one New Year's resolutions last year.

And I do every year for the last handful of years, a past year review where I go through my calendar week by week from the previous year and look at the things that gave me the most energy, took the most energy. Some of them are worth it, most of them are not. And try to identify the kind of peak emotional. Experiences positive and negative, and who the people and activities are on both of those lists, so I'm sorry to say, Kevin, you ended up on my negatives.

I'm kidding. And that's how I then go through and look at scheduling things and spending time or not spending time with activities and people for the next year. And the most consistent energy giver was time in nature and activities in nature. And it is part of the reason I was so thrilled. And we can kind of go in a direction.

But to get as a gift this book, which is of Wolves and Men by Barry Holston Lopez. And it is probably the best nonfiction book I've read in the last five years.

It is so cool, unbelievably good. And I have highlights on almost certainly in every chapter. And it's just I had to modify the way I highlighted because I highlighted so much. His writing is as crisp and clear as Michael Lewis. The structure of his writing is right up there with like John McPhee and the the beauty of his prose and just the word smithing and use of metaphor is right up there. I would say with Mary Oliver, I was blown away.

I kept stopping my friends and wanting to read them paragraphs and chapters, and they got pretty annoyed after a while.

But it is a spectacular nonfiction book. Very cool. And yeah, it is funny to me.

I don't know if you remember telling me this, but you told me I don't know, maybe was it six months ago you were like, I'm not reading any new books.

What was it you're saying? Something like that. What was the guy so. Well, for twenty twenty I read no books that were printed in 20 that were published in twenty twenty. So I was reading books but I put up a blog post as a policy and I think the title of the blog post was making the single decision that removes a thousand decisions and that relates to the burden of getting hit up by hundreds of people a year who want me to read their books that are coming out a week later or two months later.

And it's not that they're bad people, but they they very often have a book coming out. They want to be on the podcast. And I end up oftentimes where I have ended up with just stacks of hundreds of books. And the fact of the matter is, we don't have that much time on the planet, you know, unless we figure out how to, you know, recycle in a 20 year old blood like vampires, like some people do, who shall not be named or whatever, using fancy drugs, rapamycin, metformin, et cetera.

Like maybe you get you eke out a few more years. OK, that's possible. But if I look at the average age of death of males in my family going back many generations as far as I could like, easily do the math, it's about 85. Like it doesn't really matter what you do. As long as you don't get hit by a bus or fall off a cliff, like you're probably going to die around 85. So I'm forty three.

That means I've crossed the 50 percent mark.

I think it's helpful to just assume that and you can sit down and do the math.

Like how many really good books do you read per year. And people do the math and maybe they end up at five, maybe they end up at 20. It's hard to read 20 amazing books unless you're really deliberate about it.

You probably read a fair amount of garbage. So you figure out like, OK, this you know, this book took me a long time to find and it was gifted to me, even though it had been recommended many times, I still didn't read it. You said a long time to find meaning.

You just hadn't heard of it or it's out of print.

No, no, no, it's not out of print. It's it's a long time to find it took a long time for it to happen, I guess is what I'm saying.

It had been recommended many times, but we get bombarded with reading assignments all day long. Right. Maybe it's just something on tick tock or Instagram or Twitter or whatever. Although I deleted all of this from my phone, I deleted. Yeah, all of those have been deleted from my phone for about six months now, which is great. Wait, I saw you post on Instagram the other day.

I didn't get the story you told me you did because I don't I don't have it. I don't I don't go on Instagram. Yeah.

Yeah I do. You know, she told me to keep you posted. A chocolate bar that we got you.

I did. Yeah. So I have a workaround. So the way that I post to Instagram without using Instagram is, is I, you know, I use, I use and I mean that sometimes happens to but I use an app called only polt and only polt like catapult but only. Paul Topflight allows me to post to Instagram without having the application on my phone, so I'm sure there are other things that allow me to do this, maybe HootSuite or others, but I've used only polt.

And it's it's really kind of a it is not a Swiss Army knife. It is for us. It is just like Instagram and Askey, like you're like scrolling.

I like to think that your your assistant's calling you up and being like Kevin is wearing a red shirt today and Daria seems to be holding their dog like describing you posed by the I'm like take out the semicolon is the semicolons.

Now I, I use only polt it. Think of it as a buffer for Instagram specifically so you can schedule social media posts or post immediately using this application and it posts to your Instagram account for you.

So what that allows me to do is I can take a photo of something I think is beautiful or useful, put it on Instagram and do so without ever being exposed to my feed in any way.

So I'm. It is. It is. In other words, it is right. Only instead of Read-Only.

I mean, you could just unfollow everyone too. And then when you go there's like a blank feed. Yeah. I mean I could do that but then you don't get CDMs and stuff I guess.

Apps. I don't really use the. Yeah I don't either. Yeah. It's just, it's just over.

The volume isn't manageable.

So the point being with these books is like look at your track record of reading books.

And I remember Tim Urban wrote about this as the creator of of wait but why in an amazing piece called The Tail End, which everyone should read.

And it talks about how precious time actually is.

Everybody listening to this, if you haven't read The Tail End by Tim Urban, read it. Reread it. I reread it regularly. And the fact of the matter is like, I don't know, maybe I have a few a few hundred books left to read, like good ones. So I don't want to be reading stuff. Generally speaking, that hasn't stood some test of time. Like this guy, Barry Lopez won the National Book Award. He was nominated for the National Book Award for this Book of Wolves and Men.

I mean, this this is a very high bar, right? They just published the 25th anniversary edition. It changed how people wrote about in nature or how people thought about constructing nature writing and nonfiction period, like the guy completely reshaped an entire genre of writing. It's it's incredible. And if you have that high a bar, there are still too many books.

So I'm trying to be much more purposeful about my reading. And that was why in twenty twenty I had I'm not reading any books published this year which I am going to extend for twenty, twenty one. So I'm not going to read any books published in twenty twenty one either. That's awesome. I love that. Yeah.

Feels good. And once you make the rule it depersonalizes it. This is really important because it's hard to say no when you're making. One off decisions, right, if somebody comes to you and they're like, hey, can you contribute to my go fund me? Because, you know, I lost my shoes and I want to buy a nice pair of shoes or whatever, you just get hit up with so much stuff.

And if it is a personal no, it's hard for people to receive if it is a policy and you can point them somewhere, even if you say it's a policy, it often takes the sting out. But I could just point to if you go to Tim blog forward, slash new books, I think it is like it's a short story, takes people directly to that post on finding single decisions that remove hundreds or thousands of of decisions. And yeah, there it is.

Yes. If you if you just go to my blog for slash new books, then it takes you to finding the one decision that removes one hundred decisions. And so if I get hit up via email, via text, via fill in the blank by someone I actually know who wants me to read a book, I'm just like, you know, I wish I could, but I can't accept this public policy, so I don't have to choose among friends.

Boom. And I send a link and that's that's it. That's the template response. Can I ask how you. Well, I mean, I'll tell you why I'm asking this question massas question, because one of the as part of the training that I'm doing with Henry, who we talked about in previous podcast, is the Zen master that I study with. One of the things that I do is when I go for walks in nature and you mentioned enjoying nature is one of the big highlights.

The easy thing to do is to put on a podcast, an audio book. Right. And on top of that is to set it at two and a half speed so you can get through as fast as possible. My instructions have been to take out my headphones and just treat it as a as a way to listen just listen to nature, just like let it all come in and put your focus and attention on the sounds that are happening around you.

I found that to be a much more it's like a like an amplifier on top of the already awesome walk. Just this idea of of really being there rather than try and do extra things while you're on that walk. Right. And so my question is, you know, when I've been listening to audio books, I've actually said, OK, one x speed, because I really if I'm going to do a book, I'm going to give it my full attention.

Are you doing anything like that or do you jam through books? Do you read them at night? Like, how do you consume.

Well.

So there are few things I'd love to reflect on that you just said the first, as far as nature goes, I would say that and I try to think about much like the energy management leading then to time management, I think a lot, as you know, about the sequencing of things like what is the natural kind of waterfall cascade order in which these things belong. And for me, spending time in nature is about cultivating and a very detailed awareness of nature or acute awareness of nature.

First and foremost, if I do that, the enjoyment or the the contentment that I feel in nature automatically goes up dramatically. So I spent and part of the reason I'm thinking about this so much as I've had a very hard time reacclimated to Austin, and it's not because of just all swarms of locusts, a.k.a. Californians, descending upon this fair city, although I'm hypocritical to say that obviously it's it's it's because it's a city.

It's a city. And I spent a lot of time in the wilderness on a feed, on a farm. And I want to mention locations, but for the entire summer. So, you know, I spent several months walking through the woods every day where there are black bears and coyotes and so on.

And seeing the changes, I would walk for hours and I got to recognize these very minor or I should say minuit changes on my walks. I would see which trees changed color first. As we got closer to autumn, I would see how tracks presented themselves in certain places at certain times of the day, dependent on weather.

And when I came back to Austin, I want to say one thing also one of the ways that I increased my appreciation for what was around me, because I think if the walk isn't interesting enough for you, you're probably just not interested enough. So I asked and I'm going to be, you know, finding someone to pay to to help me with this. And Austin found wildlife biologists and specialists or even people who work at, say, garden shops and things like that to walk with me through the woods to identify things, to point things out to me.

And, you know, the recommendation they gave me at one point was to start with trees, because flowers and wildflowers are very complex. There are going to be dozens, if not hundreds of different varieties.

Start with the trees, because in any given location, you might have at least where I was, let's just call it eight to 12 trees. And if you learn the classifications and how to tell them apart and how to describe the different characteristics that separate them or distinguish them, you're going to be able to identify 90 percent of the trees that you see. How cool is that? You know, before that point in time, they're just trees. You might identify a maple, let's say, because the leaf looks like something you'd see in Canada.

But by and large, it's just trees.

It's green stuff that's really high. And after that, you suddenly kind of click the dial a few notches towards high def. And your experience of the walk changes tremendously. So I would occasionally take phone calls when I was walking, but I spent, I would say, at least 70, 80 percent of my time listening to bird calls, learning to identify birds there.

Now, are you? I'm not a birder. I'm not a bird. It's OK if you are not I'm not a bird or someone will be able to find this. There is actually an app on Android. Sadly not. Last I checked, it wasn't on iOS. That is like Shazam for bird calls. It's amazing. In other words, you can hold your phone up, click a button and it will identify which Bird is calling, which is awesome.

Are you doing anything?

Are you doing Shazam for birds out in the forest? No, because I was. I was. I was. I was. So I had to do it the old fashioned way and like, go online and listen to different bird calls and try to compare them.

The the the other thing that I that I found really fun to do, because not everyone's going to have access to someone who can point out different plants, is to use the Google app to do image searches on different plants.

And it is incredibly accurate. Most of the time. I was stunned. It's so cool.

I just walk around your house like how many people? And I'm going to plead guilty here, know the names or the types of all the plants they might have in or around their houses. Very, very few. Yeah, I would guess. Right. And using the Google app and image search, which is very easy, you. And pretty quickly identify the vast majority of plants, trees and so on, it's awesome. I've used it on walks here in Austin to identify trees.

I love that. Yeah. So those are a few of the ways that I think about. Nature of which we are part right, it's very easy to feel separate from nature, and I think that feeling of separateness is intensified. If you have earbuds in and you're listening to something at rapid speed, nature doesn't really rush. Right. So to to meet it at its own cadence without listening to anything but what is around you I find really therapeutic.

As far as reading these days, I definitely don't rush. Like, if I'm rushing through a book, I should generally just drop the book. It's not good enough. This book you should be you should only be choosing books that you are sad to see end. Hmm. Right.

Like if you're not like, oh man, what am I going to do now that I know I have to find another book. If you don't have that feeling, then you're not reading the right books. I'll give you another example. So this book is one that I was given by my girlfriend for Christmas and it's an awesome book. I hadn't read it in probably. Twenty years, and it's it's this it's called Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming by Stephen L'Auberge, L.A. BRG and Howard Rheingold.

This is an incredibly detailed tactical how to book about lucid dreaming and developing the different skills related to lucid dreaming and lucid dreaming. I was really, really dedicated to a lot of these practices towards the very end of high school or certainly the first few years of college. And I actually reached out to Stephen L'Auberge or his team when I was in college. I couldn't get a hold of him, but I did get the attention of his team because I said, you may want to look at if you haven't already.

Hoopers seen a whooper zeny as a supplement. You can get it anywhere. Well, certainly online, which acts and a little cholinesterase inhibitor. And this is just a very long winded fad. Well, it's not just in the brain.

Well, it's not turning off acetylcholine production, but it it has anecdotally the ability to help, one, induce lucidity.

How and why that happens, I don't know. At the time, I had a very, you know, well developed pet theory for why this sort of mechanistically and plausibly why it worked. But the point being that Stephen L'Auberge came out of Stanford lucid dreaming to define that is the phenomenon of realizing that you are dreaming. When you're dreaming, you effectively wake up in your dream and you're like, holy shit, I'm dreaming. And normally you get excited and then you wake up.

Yeah, they call that.

They call that and then they call that enlightenment. But it's not when you're dreaming, you go if you're awake, you wake up and you realize this is a dream.

Yeah. So you can start with you could start with the lucid dream.

How are you doing with that?

This is actually a phenomenon that can be demonstrated in laboratory settings because your eye movements during R.M. sleep correspond to your eye movements in dreams. So you could hook someone up to, I suppose would be an EEG in a sleep lab. You will know when they are sleeping and in RTM states and so on based on brainwave activity.

And then if if they have agreed with the experimenter on a predefined set of eye movements, let's just say like right, right, left, right, right, left or something like that, when they become lucid in their dream, they could look it following that pattern and indicate to someone who is in the lab that they are in fact aware they're dreaming.

It's pretty good. Just be closing their eyes and doing that. Well, they wouldn't be able to pull that off because the EEG would enjoy it, right? That's right. They wouldn't would would just show that they're being dickheads and.

Right. But the lucid dreaming is.

It makes you more. Aware in your normal waking life because. You develop the habit of doing what some people might call reality checks, and that is asking yourself the question, am I dreaming or am I awake while you're awake? And you would and then you would test it. And the way you would test that, for instance, if you had a book cover like this with text on it in a dream, you looked at the cover at the text, you look away, you look back.

The text is generally going to change because your brain is producing the entire experience moment by moment. So that would be one test. We like looking at text, looking away, looking back. Another would be looking at patterns like I'm looking at the wall in front of me in my kitchen and the tiles are laid a certain way. If I looked away and looked back at those tiles, they might be running the opposite direction or at a diagonal are your dreams.

That's vivid. Like my my REM dreams are just kind of like I never really believe that they're real. Do you actually like well, if you never believe they were real, you would always be lucid. Right. So.

Right. But I don't think like I don't ever remember, like picking up a book and being like, oh, it has Texan. It like that doesn't I don't get to that high fidelity like. Do you work on Dream Recall first. So you would cultivate dream recall and it is your grasp on the sort of coattails of details of these dreams. This is so tenuous that you there are there's definitely a protocol and an etiquette to maximizing dream recall if you don't do it immediately upon waking, you know, if you move around, if you brush your teeth, if you go take a piss like it's gone, all of your dreams are gone.

You have to be really methodical, strict about it. But it is incredible how quickly your dream recall ramps up and you get to the point where you're remembering oftentimes three, four or five dreams a night and taking them down. There are ways to improve that. You can wake up in the middle of the night, stand for two, three hours, go back to bed. I mean, there are all these different techniques that are outlined in this book that really, really work.

So in high school, when I first became reasonably good at this, I'm not going to say great, but I could usually induce lucidity in dreams at least every other night. And I was in my final wrestling season and I would manifest this guy, John Smith, who was a famous gold medalist and at a particular type of wrestling with low leg attacks. And I think he was out of Oklahoma and I would train with him. I'd never met him.

And I never I never have met him, but I would train with him. I'd seen a lot of his video footage and I would train with him in my dreams in wrestling and found that to carry over into my normal practices. So there are all sorts of things. If you're let's say you have stage fright, there are all sorts of anecdotes, case studies of people who will then create Inception style. Right. They'll create the environment of performing in front of a crowd.

They practice this in their dreams and it gives them an opportunity to. Rehearse facing their fears, right? So I'm really interested in lucid dreaming and, you know, there are some commonalities between the neurological or biochemical responses to RTM sleep as compared to the the effects produced by like LSD 25. Right. There are some really spooky similarities. And so this this came back to me. This is a book I've I read many times in late high school, certainly early college.

My own copy, which is covered in highlights, is somewhere. And then it was it was just gifted to me again. So I have many books in my house now that I would willingly read a second time. I think that should be the bar for reading anything once it has to be that good. That's awesome. Yeah, that's I have many books that I've never touched the most they do, but I want to get to, you know, it's just like I tend to, like, clean out all the because, like, I know what you mean.

If anyone that has a podcast that has more than 10 viewers that you just get books sent to you, like you get on some publisher's list and all of a sudden, like a new book, the worse. Yeah, it's crazy.

So I tend to give those mostly away to friends and whatnot.

Cool. So what else are we going to cover today? There was a couple of things I wanted to hit.

Yeah. I mean, I'd be just I'd be curious to know what you're. Yeah. How you're thinking about twenty twenty one and what kind of resolutions you have if any, or how you think about planning for the New Year.

Yeah. I mean I think there was there was two things looking similar to you in that I spent, you know, a good chunk of time looking back on the year and I didn't go through a calendar, but I did look at my news resolutions from last year, which were I feel that all of them. And so I just I mean, I look at what I want to do differently this year. And so I've set up some procedures in place.

And then there were some things that some wins that I did have mid-year, but they weren't resolutions because I didn't know we were going to be in covid. And so, you know, I think that covid what it did for me is immediately caused me to start drinking more. You know, it was like very easy to finish a bottle of wine with my wife, like, you know, and where you typically go, we have some left over from last night.

So we put a little it's like we cleared a bottle out, no problem. And then went for a beer or something.

You know, it was just like because we were like, we're going to die and it's going to die. I will drink. So I was I was basically just freaking out there for the first couple months.

And, you know, that that kicked off a point to where I got to. And I said, I'm fat. I feel like I've drank too much and I need to course correct. And so if I'm honest with myself, I felt really depressed, you know, not in a clinical way, but in a just this is really beat me down. I miss my friends. I miss traveling. I miss like, you know, there's things that and then part of me is like, well, you know, we have clean drinking water, we have food, we have jobs like life is good.

So but but I think it it's impacted everyone a little bit differently. And what I immediately went to is said, well, how can I stop and cut back on drinking? And then. Given that I only have so much free time with two little girls, what can I introduce that is new, that gives me some relief and brings my spirits back to into a positive place. And so I tried a bunch of stuff. You know, I tried walking through the the forests.

I live in Oregon and I've got a forest, my backyard, tried sonna, tried cold plunge meditation palletize, working out, lifting weights like all those things. And I would do a couple of weeks them and say, OK, which one of these if you had to like, stack rank them, which ones are having the biggest impact on me because I can't do them all. Which ones can I do that are having the biggest impact? And without a doubt I would say the two things are walking in and Insana, those are the two things that that are just so key.

And I walk every single day now and it is a no phone. No, it's like airports. I kind of walk and it is. It's crazy. What? Forty five minutes in the forest will will get you in in terms of just like a mood boost, you know, like swinging the arms, moving the legs like it's fantastic. So so that's been huge. Also in being totally transparent, I did some couples therapy, which I thought was fantastic like and it's not because I thought I was going to in my marriage, like I'd never got that crazy.

But it's just really, you know, you're cooped up with somebody else with a couple of, like, little toddlers and it gets chaotic sometimes, you know, and it's like you're there's no work. Escape work is in the home. Like, you know, there's no there's no way to have that natural kind of break that you get, whether it be grabbing a beer with another friend and then coming back to your spouse or like there's none of that if you're just on top of each other.

And so, you know, we had done couples therapy back before and after we got married is kind of like a give us a toolkit to deal with issues. And it's fantastic. I highly recommend it. It's every single time I've done I've never been pissed that I did it. You know, I've always done recommendations.

Would you give to people who are listening to this and considering it as an option? What's any best practices or recommendations for people?

Well, I would say that first I was curious, like, are there any new tech plays that I can get into here, like these talk spaces and some of these other things that are out there? And I find that those are really kind of like lightweight, not really meant for couples. That was just like, you know, text your therapist. And I was like, I don't I don't need this. So I found someone that I can actually meet with over like a secure zoom type connection that is a real licensed therapist.

Not that they aren't on that, but a dedicated person to you that's going to give you a full hour. You know, it is not not texting back and forth. And I would say, you know, I have another buddy that did the same thing and he had to get to a second therapist to find the right one. So it's not like just because you find one that you're you go to and you're like this. This isn't what I expected.

It doesn't mean the idea of the practice is wrong. You might just not have the right person.

And so we found a fantastic woman that is just really good at driving me back to the source of why am I feeling this way and just opening up the lines of communication to let us in, remind us that we're both on the same team. We both want what's best for each other and to support each other and help each other because we're coming from a loving place. But sometimes we get caught up in other things and other loops and cycles and scorekeeping.

I'm a big scorekeeper because I've always avoided confrontation, like my dad was a very verbally aggressive, abusive guy to my mom and had many, many, many good traits. I always like to say that about my dad because he did, but definitely not teaching me on the relationship side. Fantastic father, horrible husband. Confusing for me is all hell right is a kid. You know, I think that I tend to avoid confrontation and then just kind of keep track of things.

And then I then I get upset and I have something that that's like I've all these things I, you know, just come out. And so just like trying to address things in more real time has been a big help for me. And yeah, there's been a ton of little things that I picked up. But anyway, I just wanted to tell people out there, if you're going through rough times, because I hear divorce divorce rates are like through the roof right now.

There's like the courts are backlogged.

It doesn't mean necessarily you found the wrong person. You might just need a little help. And that's OK. Yeah, I think the real time versus dropping the mother load of like seventeen. Complaints and yes, freeze framed infractions is is really important. Would you share that line that you told me that you use that I think is really helpful?

Which one? Oh, I think yeah. I mean, I owe my girlfriend for all of these because certainly I didn't come up with these on my own. And I think she's been she is very conscientious about how she uses wording and language. And you would expect that I would have that as as a writer or a supposedly.

But when I get upset, I think I, I tend to to throw haymakers, not literally, but I'm less clear. I'm less I'm less careful with my wording when I'm upset.

And it it usually escalates or damages things more than it helps. And I'm not like I'm not a yeller. I never yell. But I can be very blunt. And the wording that she used and I noted it and I have also used is really simple.

It's it's just the story I am making up in my head is. Right, and then you have that the dishes are left in the sink because you expect me to clean them up, and when I when I believe that thought, I feel X, right.

So you're not disarms that quite a bit, doesn't it? Yeah, it's really and it's not just being nice. I mean, it's being more effective because as soon as someone is put on the defense. It's game over, like you're just not going to you're not going to get where you want to go and. By saying and this is this is also something if people wanted to study nonviolent communication, I think, Marshall, something or other you can find if you search marshal nonviolent communication.

I can remember the last name, but there is an audio course that is quite good. And that's one structure. And you would think, as I did, I was like, well, if we're constantly both saying the story I'm making up in my head is that it's going to be so formulaic that we're going to be like, come on, what the fuck? You know, and it's just it's not going to work.

And I have not found that to be the case. It just continues to be really helpful. Even if it is. It's true, though.

That's why because it is a story you're making up in your head, right? I mean, it's always what it is.

Yeah. And having I don't know a lot about couples therapy.

We have my girlfriend and I have worked with people before. We're going to likely work with someone again just because I have phone calls on a weekly basis with someone who kind of looks after me. My girlfriend has phone calls at least once or twice a week with people who look after her. But there is no one currently whose sole priority is to be a sort of midwife, even if male for the relationship. Right. Like the cultivator of the relationship, us together.

And, you know, my feeling is even if they're not the Jedi master of relationship coaches, just having someone who can create a neutral, safe space where each person can get whatever they need to get off their chest, off their chest is a huge service so that it doesn't bottle up, bottle up, bottle up and then explode into this like 20 exhibit assault on someone which they just can't easily recover from, they can't easily defend themselves against. And it's really jarring ultimately for everyone involved.

And it can force people to just kind of throw their hands up and be like, well, fuck, I don't feel like I can win here. Like, I just can't win. Right. I think this has happened a lot during covid. And I know that my girlfriend and I have both felt that way. Different points.

It's like, well, shit, man. Like this is set up in a way like I don't feel like there's any way I can win here. Like, there's nothing I can do that is is going to lead to me feeling like I'm being successful. And I think that is much more likely to happen when it's bottled up and given out as like a massive dosage of 10 or 20 things instead of like on a weekly basis, having someone else say, well, Tim, like, is there anything else on your mind or anything on your heart that is that you're withholding right now?

And then I'm responding to a question as opposed to like. Snapping over something stupid and then letting all this stuff fly out of my face. That's great. Yeah, I think that the the thing that she's helped me with, that I forgot to mention is that. Really just identify who the cast of characters are in your head and how they react to certain situations, because we all have triggers, we all have these little rough patches that if you just poke the right way, it's going to it's going to put you in an angry or upset or frightened or scared state.

And, you know, I certainly have those as well. And so I can come at something defensively or offensively from a place that is one of these cast of characters that is taken over my my brain at that moment. And when you can name them, define them, their wants, their needs, their fears, their hopes, you can say, oh, that's so-and-so appearing. That has a fear of this. And she is triggering that right now.

And so just, just that bringing awareness to that, just like if you can catch yourself a little bit, it just not that it makes it go away, but you're like, oh, OK, here's who's making an appearance. I know how to de-escalate this person, this this type of my personality a little bit better than before.

Yeah. So we have a rational conversation where you actually have an outcome that is one that is that puts that person away for good. Right. Or at least for that that time.

So, yeah, definitely there's something, there's something it's it's not helpful for everyone. And there are different formats for it. Some of it I found very clunky. Some of it I've found, depending on the facilitator, quite helpful for couples. That is Imago therapy. Imago people can look it up and very quickly to decide whether it's helpful or not. But it it does help you to convey in a nonviolent, nonaggressive way some of the parts work that you're referring to that certainly for my girlfriend and I were it was very impactful.

Kevin, if you had to choose a word for twenty, twenty one for you like a theme. Patience, patience. Yes. It's something I'm really trying to cultivate. I feel like you're pretty patient guy. Are you an impatient guy? Well, I mean, I just think about what we have ahead of us in terms of vaccines that who knows when we're going to get them. You know, the crazy scariness of potential mutations of a virus, a new incoming administration, all the things, the anxiety and unrest on the streets like.

There's a lot of things where I just I'm very anxious. And so I want things to be resolved and I want the problem solver. And it's like I just need to have a little bit more patience, just like slow down and just let things unfold the way they're going to unfold and stop trying to to to project my mind into the future, into some crazy scenario, you know. Yeah, that's that's a big one for me. And the other thing for twenty, twenty one is, is just really asking myself like for the drinking thing that I've been really, really good lately.

This is covid drinking. So it's like, you know, I'm not going crazy but like more than I'd like to drink. So our new kind of well my new kind of framework that I put together for myself.

Blackout's only on Tuesdays, Tuesdays no less than ten and no, no. You know, so what I'm doing is no more than two.

I have found that anything above and beyond two drinks just does not serve me well.

I'm too old. I wake up like hot in the middle of the night for no reason. So I like hot red wine sweats, you know.

And then the other thing is never, never two nights in a row. So I say to myself, I may be on night number two. And I say, you know, like, I want to drink the second night. And I just tell myself, like, can you go one day? Oh, of course I can. And then you go one day and it turns out the next day you don't want to drink. Yeah, it's two nights in a row.

So it's funny how just separating drinks by a night will help a ton.

And then the last thing and I think this is the most important thing and I don't have a good answer for but I'm working on this is part of my Zen friend who's coaching me on some of this stuff, is really asking yourself when you're having a drink, like really who is getting nourished right now? Like, so good, that's a good one. It's a really good one because what's happening, what part of me is is there something because there's there's something inside that's getting nourished and just trying to like and I don't have any answer for that yet, but it's it's a deep one to sit with, you know.

Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. Question for you, when you look at your graph of drink consumption as it goes down, is your consumption of edible gummies going through the roof?

No, you know, although I will tell you, I did try something new called Sieben.

Have you heard of this Seabourne? I have heard of actually from a grower, but I've never consumed.

So there's a here you just describe it for folks out. Yes.

So there's there's a gummy manufacturer out here. And by the way, Tim is saying this, but, you know, I am not like I'm not a big user of gummies. Like I'm oh, I'm just fucking with you.

But I do what I can.

When when you have had gummies, it is exceptionally clear in our text messages that's probably accurate. It's probably pictures of me eating pizza, fucking typing with your elbows. Yeah, that's exactly it.

Yeah. So basically and the gummy side, there's one company called Wild Wild. They make fantastic w w y y lda. And so they, I think they have all in the West Coast and they're starting to spread all over the place. But they do go sieben it's not really psychoactive, but it really makes you sleep like it is. I'm telling you, it's the closest thing I've had to like I don't know, it just feels like you're you took like a sleeping pill or something like I take it.

And it does have a little bit of THC in there, like they do put some with it. But Wild makes a sleeping gummy. So, you know, for me, drinks, it's like especially when I mean in the news over the last few weeks and months, it's just been insane. So when you're stressed out and that's the nice thing about a glass of wine, that but a gummy with with either CBD or Sieben, but CBN more so these days.

Fantastic. Sleep with it. And I wear that or a ring and I just got the the Fitbit to try out the new sleep data on here. And so I'm trying to see how it's doing. If you have more than two drinks, you see it so clearly in your aura data. It is irrefutable. It's just it turns your sleep into such garbage.

It's unreal for resting heart rate goes up by ten points and it's elevated all throughout the night. HIV goes down like there's just so many bad things that happen.

Yeah, I'm speaking of which in terms of like awesome little finds that have been helping us get through these times. This right here. I'm going to send you some of this, Tim. You got to. Right. What is it? So this is Hinoki Wood in here, OK? And so, OK, Wood is one of the seven sacred trees of Japan. And when they talk about all the health benefits that come from forest bathing in Japan because, you know, walking in the forest can be prescribed out there from a physician, it's typically attributed to a lot of the fragrance from Hinoki.

And this is hinoki oil right here. I found a fantastic manufacturer in Japan of high quality, like cold pressed hinoki oil. And I will tell you what it is. I have zero. I don't know any of these people. They're all in Japan. It is hinoki lab dotcom. So HPN, OK, I, Labbe, Dotcom, these oils, these smells.

I mean, you've been to like a Japanese like proper bath house where they have like the essential oils and this is the stuff gold. But when I put it in the sauna too, so you can put it in some water and then I poured over the coals in the south.

Awesome. Yeah. It's a type of cypress. It's a beautiful, beautiful tree, really dense foliage. Cool.

I did a few of them here in my yard actually. Oh OK. Yeah. So I got some, I had some brought in.

Jesus Christ. I love it. It's good to be kept from Japan. OK, I have to qualify for Audible's like I flew them via freight from Japan.

Hey man, you know all that, all those creped, all that crypto gold.

I don't know where it goes. I can almost 100 percent guarantee you that you have more crypto than ideas. So if you look at the ransack.

Oh, Jesus Christ, it's it's. Yeah, well, that's not saying much because you kind of dvh divested yourself of everything. Yeah. Or Yeah. Thing's for sure.

I'm definitely more I'm scared the markets are just like super overvalued right now so I tend to go safer.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, I think there's, there's a good, good argument to be made for that. If I were to pick a word for twenty, twenty one.

Yeah. What is it. Right. This moment, it would be mischievous, I think that I've taken a lot of things on myself way too seriously in twenty 20 and I think I want to bring more coyote energy. And kind of prankster. Mischievousness into twenty twenty one. Interesting, so what does that look like in you like like like no mask wearing kind of thing or.

No, no, that's just spitted dick face. I don't want to do that. No, a coyote. It's more. Yeah, it's more I think a playfulness and a irreverence. Not taking things too seriously. You know, I'll give you an example. I just the other day threw up. I love the original Willy Wonka movie with Gene Wilder. And so I threw up this animated gif that is Gene Wilder sort of eating candy, saying the suspense is terrible.

I hope it'll last. And I just threw that up. And it was hilarious to see how people responded. And because it's it's so kind of oblique and vague that it acts as a Rorschach test for where did you throw this up, like during the Trump like Capitol takeover today?

I know. I threw I threw it up right afterwards.

And you to fired you. Well, you say yes. I mean, you say terrible timing. I think that I want to cultivate a insensitivity to personality by consensus.

What I mean by that is if you look at a lot of people, I'm not going to name names and you look, yeah, no, no, I'm not going to manicure. No manicure like feeds and stuff. Well, you just look at. Personalities online over time, who spent a lot of time on social and they become caricatures of themselves because they have certain behaviors rewarded, certain behaviors punished, certain behaviors left on a plotted, and they start to warp and bend their behavior to fit the most applause.

And they turn into these kind of creepy caricatures. I think that that ends up. Inevitably bleeding over into their real lives, right, I mean, they're their off screen lives, and I think that's really something I want to be hyper aware of, which is why I don't have the social on the phone. I'm using these like workarounds, like only polt post stuff. And I want to kind of hold up a mirror that allows people to look at their own reactions also.

Right. So I think that a lot of what I'll put up in twenty 21 will be Rorschach tests. And for people who don't know that those are the inkblot tests where they would put lots of ink for the piece of paper to show it to someone and say, what do you see? And you know, they might see a murderer, they might see a butterfly, that might be something else. And then that is used as kind of a jumping off point for psychoanalysis.

And that's not going to be everything I put up. But I just think that life is too short to take yourself too seriously. And so, first and foremost, it's for me, but doing things that don't seem to have a point, doing things that are beautiful just because I think they're beautiful, they don't need to have some targeted outcome ROIC or fill in the blank. Right. And it's just to kind of loosen my grip on whatever I think my identity is that's been constructed over such a long period of time.

And let's not kid ourselves like identity can be revealed, but it's largely constructed. Right. And it's just you I think we get so attached to our labels of what we are and what we aren't, what we do and what we don't do that it's a it's just a.

I think it's a. Very socially reinforced trap that kind of constrains your awareness and sensitivity and openness to the world.

So, yeah, more coyote, that's good. I mean, the world needs I think the problem that we've fallen into is social media. And part of the reason why I don't like having an account there is it just becomes it makes me sad in some sense. And that I see it's always the best version of someone's self, like there's never any if he feels very manufactured oftentimes. And it's like it doesn't feel authentic in the way that it's always about good times.

There's never any like any. I guess there has been more lately with some of the protests and some of the stuff that's come out on there. But I mean, people, myself included, tend to put just the best version of yourself on there versus just letting it all hang out, which I guess is what kind of what you're saying in a sense that you're you're just going to have more fun with it than just trying to create the Tim Ferriss image on on social media?

Yeah.

And, you know, I don't feel like I've done. Too much of that, I mean, I do I very deliberately put out stuff that is true to me that I think could irritate some percentage of my followers just because I want to have some countervailing force against becoming this like dancing sock puppet on the Internet.

I do that to not become too attached to social feedback. But, you know, not to turn this into a discussion of, you know, the social dilemma, but. If you are constantly exposed to these technologies, like you are completely outgunned. You're just you're completely outgunned by engineers and neuroscientists and research and development teams who have, for all intents and purposes, infinite resources to. Turn you into a little just getting a little upset in a Skinner box?

Well, yeah, I want to I love that, like the A.I. is going to look at your feet. And I think Tim would like this. They're like, oh, shit, he posted a yellow pony.

What does he like now? Oh, damn it. Keep him on their toes. Well, I want to keep myself guessing, too. Yeah, I don't. I love that did. Yeah. Follow less of a script. And you've always been good at that though. You've always been like every like one in every 10 of your Instagram posts. Everyone's like, what the hell's he, why is the picture of that. Like it's not it's clearly not that manufacture fee which I've always appreciated.

Yeah.

Well I was a cameraman with a movie. I don't even remember what it was.

But I back when we were both on the apps, I remember one of yours was like and deleting in three, two, one.

Exactly. See you to your to your credit.

Sometimes when I get a little far afield you're like I think you should probably delete that and I'll get a text from it, which I appreciate, if I can just tell.

Well, speaking of like you said about my gummies, I can tell when you're a little ham to everyone.

Small little sneak out there.

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, it's true. It's dangerous. Dangerous to drink and to drink. And PRST that's a dangerous habit.

Well, it's good to see you man.

It's been too long. Good to see you too. Last little thing. I know we always like to throw a bunch of nuggets out there for people to to check out. I want to recommend a documentary since we are still so much time in months ahead of us at home.

My octopus teacher I thought was great.

Yes. Second that. Yeah, fantastic. Beautifully shot Netflix. What else you got? I liked the last dance, the Michael Jordan series, I know a little bit old now, but it was fantastic. Timeless, though. Yeah, but if you're like, yeah, I'm a competitor, like, OK, watch that watch.

That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. That's I mean, one of the best miniseries I've seen in years. If you want another documentary, which is actually very uplifting, doesn't sound uplifting based on the name, but it's called Krip Camp. And it's it begins with the story of a summer camp for crippled, I guess, young adults. And one, I want to say the Grand Jury Award at Sundance a year or two ago.

And it's it's really outstanding. So that's that's one I would recommend. Krip camp also. It just puts a lot in perspective. Also saw. So I really enjoyed that. Hamilton's pharmacopeia or pharmacopoeia just as the season three coming out.

Now, for those who don't know Hamilton Morris, he's been on my podcast, exceptional biochemist, really good at synthesizing all sorts of things.

Also a very good storyteller and a hilarious, hilarious character, unlike any other, also happens to be the son of Errol Morris of Fog of War fame.

And he's he's a really, really good. NARRATOR and editor of the series called Hazelton's Pharmacopeia, which you can find on Amazon Prime, you can find it on, I want to say Vyse and season three just came out. And in each episode, he describes the the history of the culture and the biochemistry of a psychoactive drug. So it could be could be it could be meth. It could be angel dust, it could be LSD, it could be five immodesty, ketamine, ibogaine.

And in each episode, he also then consumes or administers each of these drugs to himself or has them administered my God and records the entire experience and describes the entire experience.

So it's it's a really well done series. And that is crazy. Well, certainly also put some fear of God and healthy respect into the conversations around these compounds to. Not everything turns out well, and although he's usually fine, he's very seasoned, but there are also other people who agree to have their experiences filled and they don't always turn out fantastically well. That ibogaine stuff, man, that scares me. Yeah, yeah. I think I think you should be very, very, very, very, very exceptionally cautious with ibogaine and iboga.

It's one of the few psychedelics that can kill you with cardiac complications. So that that is definitely, as far as I'm concerned, personally off menu, although it does have some incredible possible applications to opioid dependence and addiction.

Yeah, I've heard that. Yeah, that's exactly. Yeah. If you want to see, there's a documentary called Dosed Dossi. I saw early versions of it, which I want to say came out in the last six to nine months, which does a good showcase in a sense, or provides an exploration of specifically opioid addiction and possible intervention with psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, things along those lines, and ibogaine or iboga, I'm not sure which they used. Iboga would be the route I want to say the bark itself.

Ibogaine would be the isolated, alkaloid or synthesized, depending on how they approach it. So Hamilton's pharmacopeia is worth a gander. If you're interested in such things, go. Anything else? I think that's it. That's all that I have. Oh no, I have one more. Have you seen the new jazz movie? The cartoon? I'm a jazz movie. No, you don't, I'm talking about the cartoon there when you talk about jazz movie, I have no idea what you're talking about on the extra space on this on the audio side.

I want it to be as awkward as possible.

No jazz tune picks are soul.

Soul. Yes. Excellent. Yes. I wholeheartedly recommend people check that out. Yeah. It's really just it's fantastic. I twisted my friend's arm into signing up for Disney plus to watch PSol because it's the only place that I believe you can watch it. That's happened. And we watched it. And then I ended up watching the Mandalorian and I was like, you know, if I had had the forethought to just use Disney plus I absolutely would have invested in Disney when it got smashed.

Post covid. Yeah, I mean, talk about the franchises they own. It's just in Marvel, Nat Geo, Pixar, I mean, Star Wars. The lineup is just absurd. Yeah, that's crazy. Also a lot of fun. Yeah.

Mandalorian, Jon Favreau, congratulations. Everybody involved. Fantastic show. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great show. And let's see, I'll also mention if you're looking for a healthy snack, I'll mention a company that that I'm involved with just because I love their stuff and have had a chance to spend time with the co-founders who are husband and wife. Jake and Coolen EMU's in Hawaii who run Maui Davidson. So how do you thank you for the box, by the way.

Yeah, you're welcome. You're Tim. Tim sent me a box and I have been I highly recommend add the the jerky. It's fantastic. Not the dog jerky. Just likes the dog almost almost broke into that because it came with everything else.

I just saw jerky and I almost went for it and it's good enough to eat by the dog. The dog treats are Molly's favorite. The human jerky, the bars and everything are fantastic and the leg medallions are just incredible. So it's I haven't seen that yet, but I'm going to. How's the bone broth, by the way? Because I haven't tried yet. Bone broth is exceptional. It's extremely high protein and it's all outstanding. I mean, this is the as far as I'm concerned and as far as I can tell, the most nutrient dense meat you can possibly imagine.

It is all wild harvested, although it's for those people who might be worried about game harvesting on public lands. It's all done on private lands, on these large ranches, because access deer in Hawaii are massively damaging as an invasive species.

And they actually not just destroy the vegetation where it looks so bad that people think it's caused by wildfires in that amount of destruction, but that that leads to erosion and run off. That also damages the the coral reef in the marine life on the Hawaiian Islands. And this is specifically Maui. So the ecological cost is huge. And so they work with USDA inspectors. They hunt at night at long range with rifles. They only take headshots to make the kill as stress free as possible.

For the animals. The entire operation is like something out of special operations. It's unbelievable.

Sounds like they're like night vision snipers with hatchets. Yeah, they use infrared cameras.

And have you hunted them? I have. I didn't see went out there. I did. Yeah. I hunted with Bo also with rifle. But I feel and I don't, I don't often but I, I think it is a. Profoundly, profoundly impactful way to reconnect with food. Oh, if if you kill an animal and you are sorry if you eat an animal but you won't kill it, you have way disconnected from nature. Yeah. You know, I mean, like I've always told myself, I've never killed a cow, but like I do eat cow.

So if I if there was a way that I could do it in a humane fashion at a place that I would, I would probably have to do it just because I'd be I feel like a hypocrite otherwise. Oh, he shouldn't have said that. I'm going to find you a cow.

I don't want to do it. I don't really want to do it at all.

But I'm just saying that, like, I just I don't know. Do you know what I'm talking about? I just I would feel awkward saying I'm willing to eat you at someone else's hand, but not be willing to do it myself. Yeah.

And it's it's you know, hunting's not for everybody. I was I was strongly, strongly, militantly anti hunter and hunting up until I worked on the four hour chef.

And I decided for a portion of it that I wanted to do my best to learn to hunt and forage, to consume only those things that I procured myself and had the opportunity while doing that deep dive to spend time with really hyper intelligent, responsible hunters like Steven Rinella, who's written books on the American bison. He's written all sorts of incredible books on multiple topics to see that it, as far as I'm concerned, can be approached in an extremely responsible, extremely eco aware and thoughtful, conscientious manner.

It really can. So, you know, the meat that I have here and the meat that I ate when I was when I was hunting in Hawaii, it was from what we got that day. And I feel very good about that. I feel yeah, that's that's the that's the evil side of hunting, obviously, is both on the the species that that are in low numbers, which obviously is just a massive no no. And then also for the trophy of it, you know, like like I, I really respect the people that have learned how to do the full, you know, nose to tail processing of an animal and to make use of of everything they possibly can.

And so it's really it's really quite cool. Yeah.

So so people interested check out the video on Maui, new events and dotcom. The video is incredibly well done. It's done with award winning cinematographer and it shows the kind of ethos and mission and how they approach all this stuff. It's incredible. So Maui Meiyu, I, Newey and you I venison, dotcom and people can check it out. It's it is the start up. And, you know, Kevin, I've made basically no direct startup investments in the last handful of years and been helping these guys.

It's a very tough business. It's the best product in the world as far as I'm concerned. And I am so enamored of this company and the family and the people behind it and the ethos. It's just like it checks all the boxes for me. So that's awesome.

I hope you enjoy your food. Investing is hilarious to me, by the way, because like I would say on tech, fantastic track record. Yeah. That then the cricket protein bars.

Yeah. But the funny thing about that is that they started a new company. Yeah. That's killing it. That is killing it. Magic is killing it and unfortunately missed out on that one. I did, I did miss. But you know it's, it's, I'm doing OK with food man. I'm doing actually a really, really good investments. I know you have. So maybe you have a well more well blue bottle did five of us. Blue Blue Bottle did fantastically well.

And Hugh, the chocolate makers were just acquired. I think the announcement was last week by Mondelēz and I was an advisor to well I suppose I still am an advisor to you. So that was also a really fantastic I'm just kidding.

I mean, like literally 90 percent of the deals that we do, like, go to zero, that that's totally fine. That's the name of the game on the early stage investing. Yeah.

If I could if I could choose one that I really want to not just survive but thrive like Maui, Nui would be at the very top of the list just because the the sort of benefits to community and ecology and like the way that they're walking the talk in a beautiful philosophical sense is just it's rare. It's super, super rare. So that's awesome.

I will say that. And with the product that I have tried so far, I haven't tried it all. If you're scared of the idea of venison, you shouldn't be because it's very damn tasty jerky like you would. You would. It's not gamey and. Surprised not give at all, and then I will say magic spoon for people that are like old school cereal, like Fruity Loops, but want to get a friendly snack, do you see Fruity Loops, you 90 year old?

No. They have like Fruity Loops, like flavor loops. Frozen pretty. Oh, sorry. Fruity Fruity Lives was the DJ software to remember that you can make it was a mid loop's. It was OK.

I got it. Yeah, it's a magic spoon. I mean, I have an entire pantry full of their stuff and I'm really thrilled for the founders. They've done an extremely good job of making a great product. So, yeah, if you if you liked Cocoa Puffs, Fruit Loops, these types of cereals as a kid, you can have cereal that tastes very much the same. That is basically zero carb, super low net carb with high protein and enjoy it with your real milk or fake milk of choice.

And yeah, it's fantastic. My favorite is the chocolate. I really like the chocolate vapor. Yeah. I guess they had one too.

That was like a cinnamon one. That was quite good anyway. Yeah. Good stuff. Cool.

Expen. Coolio. Coolio man. Well you want to tell people where they can find you. Yeah.

I mean eventually this year I'm going to start up on the Instagram again. That's probably best place. I'm just at Kevin Rose. You can find me there. And I also have a podcast that I put out one episode about every three months.

It's not that regular, but I do have really good guess. I just have some great ones. I had Andy Ratcliffe on most recently, who's founder of Benchmark and also Wealth Front Benchmark Capital being one of the most successful venture capital firms of all time. And fantastic interview about the importance of a diversification. And yeah, just like he's a brilliant, brilliant man.

Have you ever had Andy idea on your show? You know, I have, but I had it via Mike Maples show and he did an episode where Andy was featured.

And so we published that audio on my phone. Got you. Yeah. Smart guy. Extremely smart guy.

I wish he would write a book, man. He's one of those guys you just sit down and talk to and everything that you throw at him. He has a different take on and most of the time he's right. And he like this needs to be something like, you know, how radio put out his principles book. Andy needs his version of that. You know, it's like, yeah, well, I tried to talk him into it. He wouldn't do it because he doesn't want books.

Books are a pain in the ass. But he could get a ghostwriter slash collaborator and that person would just interview him like a few hours a day for a week straight, and then they would have all they needed. So there we go. Andy, if you're listen, make it happen. All right, Kev. Kev, well, it's lovely to see you. Yeah.

Good to see you. As well as hanging in person this year, man. Let's make it happen. Let's make it work. Long road trip. I'll get in my armored marauder vehicle and make my way across country to visit you in the forest. Maybe that's in the next move. Do some horse bathing together. Just walking in the forest, that sounds exotic and erotic, I can't wait. I mean, we've done some of that in Japan. That's true.

We need that. We need to get back to Japan. That would be fine.

And well, step by step, let's figure out domestic travel first and then make it in Japan. Yeah. All right. No discussion. OK, man. Well, to be continued and much love to you in the family.

Same to you and everyone out there. Please stay safe and healthy and take care of yourselves. Bye bye.

Hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. No. One, this is five Bullett Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? And would you enjoy getting a short e-mail from me every Friday if that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Pfeifle of Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week that could include favorite new albums that I've discovered.

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Go to fresh books, Dotcom Tim and enter Tim Ferriss. And how did you hear about a session? That's Fresh Books Dotcom Tim and enter my name Tim Ferriss to our two houses in the house. Did you hear about a section one more time that is fresh books dotcom again. This episode is brought to you by Magic Spoon. Magic Spoon is brand new material that I eat just about every day that is low carb, high protein and zero sugar.

I just ate a huge boulder cocoa flavor about an hour ago after a short workout. Magic Spoon Cereal has received a lot of attention since launching last year. Time magazine included it in their list of best inventions of 2013, and Forbes called it the future of cereal. It tastes just like your favorite sugary cereal from childhood. Remember that. But it's actually good for you. Serving has 11 grams of protein, three grams of net carbs, zero grams of sugar and only one hundred and ten calories.

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But there's a new contender for favorite flavor because they just launched two limited edition flavors Honey Nut and Peanut Butter, which are delicious. I am a sucker for peanut butter and it is outstanding. So I think cocoa and peanut butter are my two new favorite flavors and fun fact. My friends are also obsessed with Magic Spoon. One of the podcast's most popular guests, Dr. Peter Tilla, routinely crushes six to seven servings at a time. That's a lot with no glycemic response.

He's looked at this with a few comments. He likes it so much he invested other friends to very fine gentleman and also past podcast guests Kevin Rose and Ryan Holiday also invested. So check it out, see what the buzz is about. Get a magic spoon. Tim and grab a variety pack of cocoa is my favorite or anything else, but see what strikes your fancy. Why not try a variety pack and be sure to use code to Tim at checkout my listeners.

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Tim, take a look.