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Sage Steel worked at ESPN as an anchor, as a host for almost 17 years. She was good at her job. That's why she stayed so long. But there was one problem. Sage Steel decided to say what she really thinks in a pretty gentle, measured way. But still, for example, in 2021, she went on a podcast hammered ESPN for its vaccine mandate, called it sick and scary, which it was. On that same podcast, she committed a real sin, and she asked an obvious question, why does Barack Obama call himself Black when he's actually biracial? He's as white as he is Black. You can't say that, it turns out. Espn pulled her off the air for 10 days. Why? Interesting question. Then, Steele made ESPN even matter when she said that the man in the bathing suit, Leah Thomas, who was winning all the swimming competitions, was not, in fact, a female swimmer. So behind the scenes, ESPN said, You'd better be quiet about the trans issues. In fact, sent a letter saying, It's totally fine to talk about trans issues as long as you don't misgender someone. In other words, You can disagree as long as you don't disagree with the people you're arguing with.

You have to accept the terms of the trans activists you're criticizing, or else you're a thought criminal. Watch this.

There was a special, an ESPN special that came out, showcasing Women's History Month. And this special was surrounding Leah Thomas. I just remember thinking to myself, I could not imagine being a woman working there, being asked to report on this issue with a smile on my face and doing it. And And so I just wanted to ask about the support you felt from women since, of course, taking the stance that you have. None. I was asked to stop tweeting about it. I was asked to stop doing anything, saying anything about it on social media because I was offending others at the company.

None. Absolutely none. But she does have good people around her because herself is a good person. She's gone from ESPN. She settled a lawsuit with them. And now, Sage Steal joins us in the studio. Sage Steal, it is such an honor to have you here. Thank you.

This is my honor. Thank you.

What a great response. Tell us about the support you've received from women. A none. Absolutely none. Is that true?

Women supporting women. Know how it goes.

I do know how it goes. I know.

I will say throughout my career, I think that's the overall most disappointing thing is that, and especially in the sports world, where when I started, dinosaur years, no internet. I was always the only woman in the locker rooms, et cetera. I bet. The most support I received was definitely from my male peers.

Because they like women. Well, no, wasn't it? I like that. I was married. No, I don't mean in a creepy way. It's just that they're just... No, I don't mean that. Actually, I didn't mean it in a sexual way. It's just that men are programmed to have affection for women. I mean, they just are.

But I also think they weren't threatened by me, especially early on in my career. But even at ESPN, I was excited because where I was before in DC, I was the only mother. So I was excited to be around women who were a little bit older and could maybe part of the club and take care of each other as a mother, first and foremost. Forget about the broadcast because that is competitive. Oh, big. So I think the big picture is women preach this all the time, and it's like, Oh, the men holding us down on the glass ceiling. Every time I speak publicly at an event or whatever, I make sure I bring this up because I'm very passionate about it as the mother of two girls. Yes. They're college-age kids, too. But we complain about the guys, but look in the mirror, what do we do to each other, first and foremost?

Well, I've seen it a lot. I've had a lot of female bosses a lot, and every single one of them has been nice to me. I'm just being honest. Some were good, some were not good. Most were not that great, but some were fine. They're always nice to me. Always nice. They were savage to the women on staff. I always noticed that they're mean to the women. What is that?

They pit us against each other. They really do. Which, again, is just unfortunate. But to me, Okay, fine. Own that if you don't like the other women. But then to be hypocritical and go on social media and talk about, let's uplift each other. Listen, I wasn't trying to call people out, but over the last eight months, probably a year, when I started to support Reilly Gaines and certainly the whole transgender sports issue. I said, Women, we don't realize our power. If we, as women in the media, let's just say women in sports media, because this is a sports issue, came together to say, No, we've been fighting for so long for women in sports and for salaries to be equal at times. You look at the women's national soccer team versus the men and the ratings they brought in versus the men. There are some things, yeah, we are fighting for women. And then to be silent when it comes here, like ESPNW is part of the ESPN Network that W is for women. They spend millions of dollars on a big summit, like a get together of women every single year. And on the stage, it's promoting women and promoting diverse thought with women and supporting them.

So then when the biggest issue, really, of the last, I don't know, several decades comes up after all the Title IX fights, we, as sports media, women remain silent. To me, the hypocrisy was too thick to ignore.

And sound in a North Korean way, like nobody's allowed to disagree even a little bit.

No. Then I found out more from my employer, like Zip it. I made sure that night when I received that email, which was, wow, I'm in the middle of a free speech lawsuit against that company. I made sure and sent another email. Are you going to tell me to not support women?

This is the most Orwellian sentence. I alluded it in the intro, but here it is. While civil discourse on the issue of transgender athletes competing in women's sports is both appropriate and beneficial, that discourse needs to be fact-based and should not rely on personal attacks, insults, derogatory or crude language, or misgendering others. So you can disagree as long as you accept their premise.

As long as you follow the narrative. And listen, I knew that, but to me, this was simple, and it was a no-brainer.

But they put that in writing. That's real, right?

In writing. And then it continued, and you might offend people at our company who are in the LGBTQ community by what? By supporting women? Because there's a difference between attacking the transgender community and supporting women. I have never and would never do that. That's not my heart. Because I have empathy for transgender people who want to compete. Well, of course. But the answer is not to take from the women that for over 50 years Billy Jean King, Title 9. Sure. This is not the answer, and I had no idea that that would be controversial to stand up for women.

One of my female relative of mine said to me the other day, I thought it was brilliant, the whole trans thing really is just another triumph of men over women. Does anybody ever say that?

I have heard that more recently. It's amazing how many DMs I get and emails through website or whatever from people, even in the who are like, I wish I could. So thank you. And I'm like, Oh, we all can. I do understand why they don't. I mean, listen, I'm a prime example of what happens when you speak up and are yourself. You get canceled. I mean, hey, you know all about that. But there's a point in everyone's lives where you have decisions to make. For me, this is so much bigger than me. Who am I? I'm in my 50s. I'm not playing sports. I'm trying to do Peloton once a week. There's a big difference between me and these young women like Friley Gaines or my niece, who's a good softball player, a good volleyball player. So for me, it's about kids. And speaking up for parents who might have that fear, especially to hang on to their job because they might get an email like I did. So if I don't use this to stand up for these parents and young girls, then shame on me. That's the way.

I agree. And also, how can you respect yourself? How can you sleep soundly? How can you have dignity if you're reading someone else's script, you can't. So just give us a synopsis of your life. You said off camera that you'd grown up all around because you're from a military family. How did you get to ESPN? Oh, gosh.

Quite the- I bet. Army brat. So when people say, Where are you from? You think at this point I'd come up with a better answer. Everywhere. Yes. By the time I was 11, I lived in four different countries. Wow. At the time, spoke a couple of languages, but now let's stick with English. Yes. Let's straight off the reservationaire. One's enough. Then went to Indiana University, Hoosier. Took all five years. Then I think they were like, Just take this diploma and leave, please. You're embarrassing us. Just go away. Got the piece of paper. Then listen, ESPN was always my goal, always my dream. I was 11 when I announced at the dinner table to my parents that I wanted to be a sportscaster. I was this super shy girl. I think all the moving just throughout my whole life probably made me extra shy. But then it also, I think, subconsciously taught me that if you want to have friends on the kickball court, at recess, certainly then into corporate America, you have to go make that happen. So when I said I wanted to be a sportscaster, my dad and mom are like, okay. And this is 1984.

There were no women doing this when I was 11, 12 years old. And they're like, Okay, you're not to talk if you want to be on TV. So they She had to really push me out of my comfort zone and push through that fear of being unliked, disliked, if I... Unliked is not a word, see, English language. Disliked if I'm myself, and that's why I was just shy. And I was a biracial young woman. My mom's white, Irish-Italian, my dad's black. You felt different. You were not enough for here and not enough for this side either. There's a lot of confusion. I look back and I'm grateful for being really and having great parents to push me through those times when I had this dream, but they were like, You're going to have to work extra hard to get there.

Did you wind up in a lot of places before USPN?

Yes. South Bend, Indiana, first one, CBS Affiliate in South Bend, and then to Indianapolis. At 22, it was a top 25 market. I was completely in over my head. The first woman doing sports in that city, and we have NBA and NFL and all the college. Three-a-man sports I was definitely number 4 out of 3, like number 8 out of 3. But that's where there were certainly some experiences where it was obvious that they didn't want me there. They weren't quite ready. I knew I wasn't ready, but But I also, what do you turn down an opportunity? You take it. Then you are humble, lead with humility, and ask everybody around you, lead with kindness. Just like growing up as a kid, if you wanted friends when you kept moving across the world, you're kind and you lead with that.Of course.Yeah. So Indy, and then to Tampa, and then to DC, DC, Baltimore, Comcast, Sportsnet for six years. Actually, this is funny, and then I'll shut up. I got my first offer from ESPN in 2004 and turned it down. I was pregnant with my second child and knew I wanted at least one more.

And I had a friend, the late great Stuart Scott, that rest his soul, he died of cancer nine years ago, and he was everything at ESPN. He was like, Listen, I love you. We're the same agent. He's like, You need to be ready to go there. As a young mother still trying to have more kids, you'll get eaten alive, especially back then. Of course. In early 2000s, it was a very different place. I really took a chance and was scared. Even my agent, everybody said, You're nuts. Espn doesn't need you. You need them. If you turn this down, you're going to be blackballed. I raised that family's everything. When you move across the world, and I have two younger brothers, it was the five of us.

Yes.

I knew that if I didn't follow through with that core principle in my family as a mother myself, that I'm a hypocrite. So turned it down and took a chance that they'd call me back.

Aren't you glad you did?

I'm so glad. But I think it, again, I didn't look at it as a bigger picture thing. It was just what I felt I had to do at that moment. Young people are-In hindsight, It was a, I believe in myself thing and a faith in God, where if this was meant to be, then I would get another chance. But either way, I have my babies, and I will never regret that.

Well, exactly. I've met a lot of people who I've read a lot of things. Tattoos, jobs, sexual encounters. I've never met anybody who regrets a child, not one.

Yeah. That's what I say. So many mothers will say, Gosh, we're just not sure. I'm like, Are you asking my opinion? If you're not sure, to me, that's your answer. Exactly. You'll never regret.

Having another child.

But you might if you don't. I completely agree. I'm grateful for that time and for taking a chance and then going and to be able to live out that dream that I had when I was a little girl. How many people actually get to do exactly what they set out to do when they were 11 at that network? It's a blessing.

Amen. And in the end, you learn, I think it's fair to say, whatever TV network you work for, whatever company you work for, they don't really care about you. No. Your children care about you and always will.

Even if they hate us.

That's a phase. Thanks for watching our conversation with Sage Steel. Politics is so corrupt and so deceptive right now. It's really hard to know who to trust, especially in Washington. In the capital city, very few are holding the powerful accountable, almost nobody. But the Heritage Foundation is. Heritage has been around for about 50 years, but it seems newly energized. As proof of that, the President of Heritage, Kevin Roberts, recently went to Davos, Switzerland, with all the powerful people. But he didn't go to Ben Denny to Klaus Schwab. No. He went to tell them to their faces how awful they are. Here's what he said. I'll be candid here because I think I've been invited here to be candid. Elites tell us that open borders and even illegal immigration are okay.

The average person tells us in the United States that both robbed them of the American way of life.

Elites also tell us that public safety isn't a problem in American cities. Just travel to New York or Washington or Dallas, Texas, the average person will tell you that the lack of public safety damages not just the American way of life, but their life. Well, amen. If you want to know more about heritage, go go to heritage. Org/tucker. We recommend you do. Was ESPN political when you got there? No. Right. That's what I thought.

No. It's interesting. We did. See, we How long do you do that for?

I have quite a while.

I look back and you realize, gosh, we were inching closer and closer, and especially when Trump won in 2016. Then it was like, wow. I remember talking to my bosses, so this was 2016, 2017, and saying, What are we doing? And why are we allowing this? Michael Jordan said it in the '80s, Republicans buy sneakers, too. Because he was criticized, as Tiger Woods has been criticized for not being vocal enough for the black community. Of course. To me, they're smart businessmen who say, No, I want everybody. I would use that example to my bosses at my sports network. Don't we want everybody to watch ESPN? Why divide? I believe if people want politics, they can go to CNN, they can go to Fox News. Of course. They came to us as a respite and as an escape. Exactly. Why Why? Why? Why? Why? And then that president was ousted, a little drama, and then the new president came in, and I think it was 2017, Jimmy Pitaro, and he agreed, and it was great. He threw the line in the sand like, We're not doing this. We want everybody to watch. And then the pandemic hit, and then George Floyd happened, and it's been a mess since.

So your read is that the President of ESPN was really trying be a sports channel, but he was overwhelmed by events.

The current President, yes. Then, listen, who are we owned by?

Well, good point. Disney. Yeah, a very political, very left-wing company. I just got to go back to what we said in the intro about your interview about Barack Obama on a podcast. I find that really interesting and very confusing. Can you explain what you said and what you meant?

Yes, gladly. It was with Jay Cutler, the former Bear's quarterback. And he had a really good research staff who picked out a couple of topics that I had spoken on in the past. And it was actually a story from 2014. I didn't bring up Barack Obama. Barbara Walters brought up Barack Obama when I was on The View in 2014 when Obama was still President. Barbara, in particular, wanted to talk about why I chose to identify as biracial. Identify? Well, I am. I don't know why this is controversial.

Why you choose to acknowledge reality?

Yeah. But I said, Absolutely, bring it up. We're live on The View, ABC. We're all the same family and said, Well, why do you choose to say you're biracial? And she goes, Barack Obama doesn't. And I said, Okay. I said, I think it's interesting for the President to completely forget about the fact or ignore the fact that he was raised by his white mother and white grandmother, and his black father was nowhere to be found. Now, that wasn't breaking news. He wrote a book about that. Oh, yeah. I'm not criticizing. I'm saying these are the facts. So to me, it was interesting that he chose to completely ignore his white side and identify as black. My personal opinion, which I've never really said publicly, is, okay, this was planned. This was political. Everyone knew what they were doing when they were... He's coming up through Chicago. They had a plan for Obama for many, many, many years. But I did say, you do you, I'm going to do me. And I don't know. I'm pretty sure my white mother was there the day I was born. I mean, again- In the I'm in a vicinity anyway.

I don't know them there. And I said, But I'm so proud. I'm so proud to have been raised in this beautifully diverse family where my white family loves me as much as my Black family. Isn't that what we want? And so to For me, that wasn't controversial, but I will never ignore my mother. And so that got me in trouble. So she brought up Obama in 2014. And so fast forward to 2021, this podcast.

So can I just ask, did people respond negatively to you saying that?

Yes, there definitely was some negativity, and Barbara went, and listen, she's not here to... It's nothing personal, but these are just the facts of what happened and then what led to the 2021. Yeah, there were several people. In 2014, Twitter, I don't think was what it is now X, and certainly how crazy it's gotten. But I did get some... Listen, throughout my life, the most criticism I've received, especially since probably 2016, 2017, when I've given opinions on things, the most criticism I've received is, unfortunately, from people who look like me, from the Black community. And so the criticism that day in 2014 was, well, she's a sell out and look at her White husband and all of these things. And so that used to break me. That used to really devastate me because when you're a biracial kid growing up and you are told you have to choose sides, and I never did. My parents gave me that strength, despite the shyness, to say, no, no, no, this is who I am. And why is that bad? Not knowing that 30 years later, this would be such a controversial thing. I was just recapping that story in 2021 and reiterated it.

And then that me describing what happened with Barbara Walters turned into in 2021, sage deal, Hates Black People and Things Barack Obama Should Not Identify as Black. And I said, No, no, no.

Hates Black People?

Oh.

Your dad's Black.

You can't make it up. You can't make it up. But that When I got suspended by ESPN, they did bring that up to me. Why are you talking about Obama? What do you mean?

And so I would love to- So you're not allowed to talk about Obama?

Not if you don't follow narrative. If I had said, Listen, I grew up in a biracial household, but I'm a Black woman, I would probably still have a job. But can I just...

I just think it's... Maybe I'm overthinking or perhaps underthinking it, but it does seem very strange. I thought I think that the whole point of the melting pot idea was that we're all people inside and that the left is certainly not against people of different races getting together and having children. I don't think they're against that, are they? I don't I don't seem to be. Why would they get mad if you say, I'm the product of mixed-race marriage? I just think it's the craziest thing I've ever heard.

You know that one drop rule we've heard for years, which I guess I just don't care enough.

Right, I agree. I agree with that, actually.

I mean, whatever. I'm fifty-fifty. I'm a little bit of both. And to me, with where we are today, where DEI and diversity and inclusion and all of the things, acceptance and tolerance, don't I define that? Yeah, I would think so. You know? And so I've been so confused by it. And this is a discussion I hope to have on many levels as my career takes different turns now, and just to be able to have a conversation. But the hypocrisy in this whole topic, I represent diversity in America. I'm so grateful that my parents, 52 years ago, coming off the civil rights era, chose to choose love over divisiveness. My mother's parents disowned her for marrying a black man. She had to choose between her family and the man that she loved that loved her. This didn't matter. And so I look at my parents, 52 years, and I'm like, You know what? You guys can keep all your hatred.

Oh, your parents are still- Oh, yes.

They're alive and well, some health issues, and 52 years.

They've been married 52 years. Yes.

That's my example. And as a biracial couple, despite some very difficult within the family because of the differences. I look at them and I'm like, Okay, I can handle anything. But it is completely hypocritical in my mind for the Black community to draw this line. And because I don't say Black, and I say biracial, I'm a sellout. I'm a coon. I'm named, I can't say MTV. Tucker, I used to be quiet about it.

And you've actually gotten that from people directly?

I've received death threats from people who look like me because I don't identify the way they want me to.

They got on Tiger Woods about this, I remember. Correct. I didn't really understand the dynamic there either. Why are you against Tiger Woods?

I never understood this. I never understood this. To me, I just feel so blessed to be able to represent that diversity that I think makes America great. But I do think this, because now, fine, I've been canceled 100 times. I don't care anymore. That's the cool thing. I have to keep speaking out about this, and all of these things that have gotten me in trouble because it is bigger than me. And every time I've spoken at a college or university, I just came from a women's skincare conference. Everywhere I go, this topic comes up because I've been in the news for it. But there are a bunch of biracial kids out there who are being told that they're not enough, who are being told to ignore their white mother or white father or Asian mother or father. And I know what that feels like. And I've been hung publicly and canceled for not identifying the way that others want me to. So if I don't speak up because I now don't care about what comes at me, then what about these kids? So I had a woman the other day at this conference come up to me, a white woman in tears who's married to a black man and has two kids who are being told right now, they're like 8 and 11, who are being told, Well, your mom...

No. Disown your white mother.

Yes. At a young age, and she was in tears. And I just hugged her because I was like, Stand tall. Let me talk to your I will do anything to help parents and kids of any age, I'm 51, I'll talk to who is being told that they're not enough because they don't identify how the left and the Black community, and not all areas, but in many, says that we have to identify. It's BS. It's actually racist. It's wrong. And so I feel so obligated and excited to tackle this for others who are told that they're not enough.

Yeah, it's absolutely It's wild to me that... I'll just say it the last time, but I just can't help but say it. At the exact moment, we're like, No, embrace your identity. Be who you are. These are inborn qualities. It's like attacking people for stating their identity clearly. It's insane to me. At AJ products, sustainability is at the core of our mission. That's why we meticulously craft many of our school products with your needs in mind. By blending the Swedish design with sustainable materials, AJ offers classroom solutions that are truly unparalleled.

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It's heartbreaking. I was at a conference once, and I have to share this because I think you'll find it fascinating. We've heard this quite often, but a wonderful young woman, a motivational speaker, she's white. They're predominantly Black people at the conference, and I was the moderator. She got on stage and she said, I just need to apologize. I said, For what? She goes, I need to apologize for all white people because we can never understand. It was a moment, Tucker.

Settle down, honey.

But I was like, okay. Yes, among other things I was thinking. But this is 2017, '16, '17. Oh, okay.

I just thought, Oh, boy, is this...

I'm the moderator. I need to stay out of this. No, I have a unique perspective, I guess, because I'm biracial. I said, No offense. I think you meant well because I know your heart. But I'm going to tell you, I'm offended that you are telling me that my white mother- Yeah, exactly. Should apologize. I mean, have you seen me? Have you seen my mother? Have you seen who she married? So when you lump white people together saying you should all apologize, for what? What did you I do.

I couldn't agree more.

What have you done? You should be apologizing. To me. Swear to God.

So how was that received when you said that?

Muffled claps. Muffled claps. Because people are afraid. But afterwards, for almost an hour and a half, there was a line of people, a lot of biracial people, a lot of white mothers, white fathers, Black as well, who agree with me and said, Thank you. A couple of kids were crying. Yeah. The less fearful I've gotten, the more I realize that I have to talk about this because we're actually so blessed to have grown up in that environment.

Yes. Whenever you tell the truth about anything, especially the hard ones, it offends people and enrages them, and they plot violence against you in some cases. But other people are thrilled and inspired and joyful just to hear something that's true.

I think there's a lot more positive. I agree. I really do. But the I agree. Negative is what comes through on social media. But there's a lot more sanity. I completely agree.

After this happened, after the Obama, the fabled Obama interview, what did you think your status at ESPN was? If they're going to get mad at you for that, that's a problem.

Well, the number one thing at that time, because it kept changing that they said they were upset about, was my comments about the vaccine mandate. That was the number one thing that got me in trouble.

Did they tell you that it's not your body or choice, or did they just move? Because they had been telling us it was our body or choice. I remember that. Clearly. They've been Did anyone officially announced that to you, or was it just assumed that that was no longer a principle?

It's literally you have until September 31, 2021 to get a vaccine or you're no longer employed.

Whoa.

And I waited till the very last possible day to make the decision, because then it had to be in you for two weeks, I think it was, in order to be fully vaccinated. And so it was a very... And I was close to walking. Yeah. Because I just... And this is two plus years ago. At the time, I just wanted more information.

Of course. That's it. Me too. Yeah.

And I'm like, can you give it six months? Because I am no scientist. I'm not a political analyst. I'm a sportscaster, and I'm a sportscaster, and I'm a mother, and I'm just trying to do the best thing for me and for my kids. And I just did a little homework. And it's like, wait, isn't on average, isn't it six to nine years for the FDA to approve any vaccine? Can we just slow down? Can you give me six months? I don't know an exception. I won't tell anybody. I'm just afraid.

Yeah.

And listen, I'm divorced and I'm the sole breadwinner and always have been. And I have three kids who are currently in college and went on the way. So that choice, and I'm not alone. I am so blessed to be able to afford to do more than the average American, right? But at that moment, when I'm sitting in the drugstore parking lot, do I go in and get this shot that I completely disagree with at this moment in 2021? Or do I get this or do I walk and then not be able to pay for my kids, to pay my mortgage, to support my family, my alimony? Am I willing to do that? And what am I going to do? This is how millions of Americans feel. So this is not a woe as me. This is a, let's talk about the hypocrisy, because I believe that someday we're probably going to get back here again, and there's going to be difficult decisions to be made again. But I did what I had. They're like, Sorry, you have a choice, even though you don't have a choice if you want your job. So I went and did it.

And then, ironically, that day was the day that my podcast appearance was scheduled on Jay Cutler. So I was coming in hot, Tucker, off of getting this shot.

But you had already obeyed their orders and done this thing you didn't want to do because you had to keep your job. Correct.

I complied.

You complied. So you'd already done it, but they just didn't want to be criticized for it, even though you had done it.

Yes. Listen, I really tried to be careful with my words that day, but I specifically said... Because I had the bandaid on my arm. I raced from there, and I was rushing, and I had been emotional about it. And so I just set up my Zoom and went, and I didn't even think. Jay asked me about it right before, and I was like, Ask what you want. I don't care. And then so when he We said it and we're rolling. I said, Listen, I respect everybody's opinions. For me, I'm not comfortable getting this, but I had to do it in order to keep my job a job that I love because I loved it to the very last day, Tucker. I said, But I believe that it is sick and scary for any company to tell their employees what to do with their body.

Yeah, what medical treatment to get. It's crazy.

But I said, But I work for a global company, Disney, and it doesn't surprise me. And so I I have to do this to keep my job. I didn't want to, but I complied, and here we are. But I think it's wrong. And that was the beginning of the end.

So what did they say to you once you said that?

Oh, the phone call conversations from One boss in particular, he's like, You whacked the company. You can't whack Disney. You can't say those things. I said, What do you mean? I complied. I don't understand. And he said, You said it's sick and scary. I go, Well, it is. That you all are telling me what to do with my body. He's like, You can't say that. You cannot criticize your employer. We found out through my attorney, our attorney, we have a similar attorney, that in the state of Connecticut, there's different laws. There's a statute that says... Because obviously, First Amendment, that does not cover employers. But in the state of Connecticut, there's a statute where you are allowed to criticize your if you're complying, and they cannot punish you for that. And so we found a loophole there. And even though it's crazy because I complied, I shouldn't even have to find this, they found it. And this was a free speech lawsuit based on me being able to say that I can have an opinion about something you're forcing me to do to my body if I'm complying to your rules. And I did it.

So first it went... But that was before the immediate reaction was, you can't whack the company. You spoke poorly about Disney. You knocked Obama. I was like, I didn't knock Obama. I told- Because you acknowledged he had a white mom, which is off limits.

Because I acknowledged the story- No white moms.

From 2014, no white moms allowed, that had been said on the ABC Network six years prior, that that was okay then, but not now. And so they suspended me, took me off the air, took events for me, made me publicly apologize, and then followed it up with a statement of their own saying, We believe diversity of thought.

However- Yeah, you can't disagree with the vax or misgender someone. That's a really cra... I mean, that was only a couple of years ago, but it feels like a different time. I don't... Maybe things have gotten better?

Oh, I don't know. Well, I mean, I think as far as the vaccine conversation, again, all I wanted was time for more research to be done. I think now we all know, two years later, my gut, a lot of people's gut instinct about it was right, especially when, wait, wait, wait. I thought we get this and we're not going to get COVID, right? Well, we get it and we're not going to spread it, right? Like all of the things that have been well documented, which we choose to ignore now. It just goes away that we were forced to do it. So I think that that just quietly goes away. At the end of the day, and I really mean this because what happened to me happened. It was a brutal decision to have to decide to publicly stand up and file a lawsuit. That was another level because this is the company that I loved, the job that I dreamt of since I was 11 years old and did it and did it at the highest level and loved every moment, literally. But to decide to do that Because obviously it's going to be really loud and really public.

And to sue Disney and ESPN, you don't do that. Especially, I went back to this shy 11-year-old kid. I was like, Oh, my gosh, they're all going to hate me. But then you have to decide for yourself. Can you look yourself in the mirror? Can you go to sleep at night? And when I'm preaching to my children and other young women and men out there and broadcasters, to be true to yourself and to stand tall and to not just take it When you disagree with something, do it nicely, do it civilly. Exactly. So this is not even about me anymore. I've been cancel. I'm fine. I'm still standing. I'm alive. But my goal with the lawsuit, my goal today, and every day, honestly, it sounds dramatic, but till the day I die, is to use this platform that I've been given and earned, but been given, and I believe that's a faith thing as well, to say to these companies, No, you cannot pick and choose who is allowed to speak. My network, ESPN, allowed at the same time as mine going on, my peers, co-hosts to go on SportsCenter, to go on NBA shows and talk about Roe versus Wade, and talk about George Floyd, and to talk about these things on a sports show.

That's not why... You do you, I guess, right? Run the company how you want, but to encourage that. But then when I'm on my own talking about my experience as a biracial woman or my experience with a vaccine mandate, even though I complied and you punish me and take things away, that's not okay. And if we truly believe in diversity, like I'm done, it's diversity of thought. We must begin there. And it was completely hypocritical. And I hope and pray that by little old me trying to stand up against big bad Disney, I mean, it really is David versus Goliath, that maybe more companies, more bosses, more leaders will begin to realize, listen, it's all or nothing. Just keep the rules consistent for everybody. You can't say they can speak and talk about abortion on a NBA show and not let the others.

They literally promoted abortion on an NBA program?

Well, when Roe versus the Way came down, and then we have anchors crying on TV. For real? Yes. We have people giving moments of silence for Don't Say Gay on women's basketball program. They took a moment of silence on live TV to talk about the Don't Say Gay. I don't know if you read the bill, those words aren't in there. I can't.

To pray to what?

Well, I don't know that they were conferring prayer. I don't think they're praying to anything. Probably not. Moment of silence. The It's just that hypocrisy was too thick for me to remain silent. I pray that leaders begin to realize you can't pick and choose who can speak. It's diversity of thought, or don't let anybody.

It feels like throughout our lives, looking back, it's obvious it's some of the worst things or some of the best things. Obviously, a horrible experience for you at ESPN, but on some level, aren't you glad you're gone?

Glad and glad I'm gone are two different things. At the end of the day, yes. I'm still heartbroken that it happened the way it did. It didn't have to. Yes. Again, I loved what I did, and it took me years to get there, and it was super hard to stay there.

Yeah.

Not the most welcoming, nurturing place where you're being uplifted and encouraged and just even given constructive criticism to continue to get better. Right. But I did it, damn it. Yeah. I'm glad because I can finally speak without being in fear, knowing, again, that it's a lot bigger than me. I thought through the years, I was just following my dream. And then along the way, I had young women reaching out and saying, Oh, my gosh. Back in the day, my boss has said, You have to straighten your hair and you can't look. That's not what anchors on TV look like, especially national TV. And so I have young girls saying, You're the first woman I saw that just owned your hair and didn't straighten and have the anchor bob and all that. So I just was talking about sports, naive, but I didn't realize that I was being an example for other young women out there and Black women, and just the diversity part. And so then when I realized that, what an honor. I'm sad that I don't have that platform to continue to do that. But I did it for almost 17 years. And now I'm excited at the potential of doing it.

I mean, look, I get to talk to Tucker Carlson, where other people who have no idea who I am will see me and forget about this stuff. I'm just saying about being true to who we are and standing up for what we believe in.

And not lying. No, I totally agree.

I did have to lie. I had to lie a lot about things that I didn't agree with that we were doing on the air.

Tell me.

Well, to not be able to ask specific questions about when we had athletes all of a sudden collapse, LeBron's son. It's a fair question to ask if he had the vaccine.

Yes. He's a young man.

Healthiest possible. Exactly. That's one example. But to not be able to go there and ask those questions. They wouldn't let you ask. Oh, no. And it wasn't just me. It was other pieces that were done on outside the lines about it. But to me, I don't care if you're LeBron's son or if you're my neighbor. You're a young man in particular because there's some science behind that. We don't like the science word now, but there's some science behind that. If an 18-year-old kid is suddenly collapsing- Especially a boy.

That's right.

If I'm his mother, I'm asking, Okay, did he collapse because it was raining today versus sunny? Any potential reason for this sudden collapse, you're going to ask as a journalist. I'm not saying it was the vax because I don't know. I'm not a doctor. I get it. But we must ask this question. But those questions were absolutely not allowed, and they were never asked on the network.

Why would ESP... I believe you, and I've certainly seen a lot of that working in the media, but you got to wonder about the motive. Why would ESPN want to run cover for Pfizer? Why do they care? But they do care so much.

I don't know. Pfizer, Moderna, J&J, DDC, Fauci. It goes deep, right?

It goes very deep. It's just- Disney, though.

I think we have to remember Yeah. Who runs ESPN. I think that Disney, when you look at the decisions Disney has made for many years, despite it really affecting their bottom line, right? They've continued. Recently, Bob Iger came out, I think, in that SEC filing, admitting, acknowledging acknowledging that they went too woke in many areas. And look at what's happened with what used to be incredible content that Disney used to put out. And look what's happened and look at the numbers and the losses.

Look at ESPN and the numbers there. I mean, that's part of my question. Do you think you got out in retrospective the right time? Oh, yeah. Do you think ESPN will be a force in sports news in 10 years?

I think it all goes back to the rights deals. Because I hear all the time on social media that the only reason that they watch ESPN is because they have the games, they have the live broadcasts. And the ESPN knows that, which is why they've tried to create other revenue streams and digital and know the ESPN Plus, which hasn't done great. Disney Plus has not done great. And so people feel it. Again, people don't come to ESPN to talk politics. But hey, it's not just ESPN. The league have done it. Look at what the NBA has done and shoving it down your throats. And then on the courts, it says Black Lives Matter, still in some places. And it's like, wait, are we not paying attention to what we now know factually about Black Lives Matter? I'm just never surprised anymore. My point is, just because I'm not surprised, It doesn't mean I give up. We give up. Those of us who aren't afraid anymore. If we give up, I feel like we're complicit.

That's for certain. You're exactly right there, I think. Did any other anchors express empathy offline, privately?

There were definitely a few, and anchors or reporters or analysts, for sure. There's a lot of people who feel the way I feel about many things. A lot of men who work there, who are on air, who wrote and said, I don't know that it's courage, but they said, I wish I had the courage that you have.

Oh, that's so embarrassing. I mean, come on. Come on. Get some dignity, right? I mean...

I agree. Grow a pair. Yeah. And at the same time, I do try to put myself in their shoes. No, I get it. As white men- Yeah, no, I get it. When you don't have endless money and you have a family to support, white men are not allowed to have a voice in that part of the industry. I understand the fear, but I also see black men who are allowed to say whatever they quite often on social media at ESPN, who have daughters who are athletes, who are silent. I know damn well that they're not letting a guy, a biological male, play against their daughter on the volleyball for it. Of course not. But they're silent.

Why?

Well, I think it just goes back to the woke.

But I mean, if Michael Wilbon or whatever, someone who's- Who I love.

Yeah, I'm not against Wilbon. We think completely I know. I'm not going to say it differently on everything.

Then Will Bond's views may be totally sincere. But if someone who's established and made some dough, really, you can say whatever you want, why don't they?

I think it's this what I dealt with as a young woman and middle-aged women for years, it's that fear of being disliked and attacked. So these big, strong, tough football players, and NBA players who have millions of dollars in the bank who are now analysts. It's, especially in the African-American community. I know for the most part, with this topic of transgender and sports issue, we're on the same page.

They're not into it at all.

Hell no. But they're silent. And to me, that's the worst thing is when they know, and they can afford to speak up. Again, it's never against the transgender community. It's in support of women. And if we focus on that. So I actually have lost a ton of respect for a lot of those people because they just go like this. But then when there's other issues that do go along with the narrative, then it's, let's go, and let's pound the table and pound the fist, and that's the hit point.

If three or four of those guys just decided, We're not going to lie anymore, and just said what they thought. You can't fire them all.

You can't. That's why I said, at least as women, let's come together and do this because they need us, and we're right.

Well, just as a factual matter, you're right. It's not some... Why did the first World War start? It's, Can a man become a woman by wishing it so? No.

#science. Because I'm not that smart, but I know-Not either.

Yeah, even I can perceive that. How long has it been since you left ESPN?

August 14th, 2023.

Oh, wow. Oh, just the other day. I know.

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

It's weird because it becomes part of your identity, right? Oh, of course. I should ask you for advice because even if you know it's the right thing, it's still almost dramatic, especially if you loved it. But I will say this, I haven't missed it. It's just weird. I thought that I would. I haven't watched any of it. I watched some games, but I don't watch it because I don't think I realized just the grind of 28 years in the industry in general.

But also- I did 28 years in the industry. I know that number. Yeah, it's a lot.

It's a lot. A lot. It's every ounce of it, ups and downs. It was such an honor Who knows what's next as far as the next chapter, long term, hopefully, round two. But I don't know. I really feel like I was there for a reason, probably a reason that I'm not even I'm fully clear on right now. That's a faith thing, a trust thing. But it was exhausting the last two years because I sued the company while it was still on their air. Usually, that doesn't happen. No. Can you leave a company.

They try and prevent that from happening.

Again, not what I wanted, Tucker. But to continue to go on the air every day. I got really good at compartmentalizing and walking in that building, knowing that there are a lot of people who hated me because I was speaking. But I had a job to do, and I had a two-hour live show every day to co-host with a great co-host, Matt Berry, the best and the best producers. I was hands-on in every single interview for two hours live, like highlights And so it was awesome to be able to realize I found a way to compartment, put it back here for two hours and be all in and let go of that fear of my peers, who there were a lot who me for what I was saying and doing. But that took a toll. That took a toll those last two years. And so when it ended, it was a relief because to balance that while going on the air, knowing that my bosses hated me.

It's awful. Yeah. I have to say, having spent a long time in that business, and then you leave and you realize that not everything is television, like there's a whole world out there. And it is TV is a bit of a biosphere. It's very self-referential. Everyone in TV watches TV. They talk to other people who work in TV. They think about TV all the time. I don't think that's the experience of most people on the planet at this point. You know what I mean? You don't realize how isolated you are when you work in that business and you get out and like, actually, nobody really cares.

Oh, my gosh. I'm so glad you said that. It's almost like you're brainwashed.

Yeah, it's a bit of a cult, for sure.

A little cult, and especially in the sports world, especially that ESPN world, because it's the worldwide leader in sports. And this is the pinnacle. And you think it all revolves around you or your network or what you're doing. And that's exactly what I said to my parents recently. There's a whole world out there who doesn't give a crap about some sports anchor. At all. And it's beautiful. And I'm so excited to continue to learn about that. It's been awesome to be more present. My youngest is a senior in high school. This is it before all three are in College. As a mom, and I had all three really close together, less than four years, and there were a lot of sacrifices to try to do it all and be the best anchor and make sure my bosses knew how committed I was, which comes across from your work. I kept getting promoted in new contracts, so they agreed. But that mom guilt that is always there, and I know dads have it, too, but to try to be the room mom for all three at the same time. You couldn't just do just two, or else you don't care about that third kid, right?

Of course. That balance and What a blessing to be able to be so present for my kids. Most importantly, yes, that's number one, actually. One A was when I reflect back on the actual decision to stand up. The night before the lawsuit dropped, I spoke to each kid separately, and I have two girls, and my son's in the middle. He's 19 now. And I just said, Listen, I want you to know, to all three of them, I want you guys to know this is coming, and it's going to suck because Other things that were public, they were attacked. People find your kids on social media, as you know. Of course, yes. Teachers would say things to my kids, just gross. I said, I need you to know you don't ever have to defend me, ever. If someone asks you and you're so inclined, I would just say, We all have a right to our opinion. My mom has hers, and just leave it at that. But don't ever feel the need to defend me. I said, I just want you to know I'm sorry for anything that might come your way. Please let me know, but know that I'm trying to do this just for others as well.

My son who's the quiet one of the three.

Like, go, girls. Always got sisters. Yes. Seen it.

He looked at me. This is the only time I get choked up. He looked at me and he said, Mom, it's about time you stood up for yourself. Good for him. At the time, he was 17. So they see more than we think. Oh, I agree. And I thought I was a really good actress. And hiding the disappointment and the pain when employers, people that you trust and love and our friends with and have had your home crush you intentionally. And for my kid to say that, my son, I realized, wow, I wonder if he's been disappointed that I just took it to pay the bills and to be safe because it's easier to be quiet. So I knew no matter what happened, even if I lost the loss, no matter what, my kids knew that their mom stood up for what she thought was right. And I I can die knowing that no matter what happens in my future, your kids... For me, it's my parents and my kids and my God, that they're the ones that matter about what they think of me. Nobody else does. So it was peaceful to go into that lawsuit.

So when it dropped the next day, and it was like, I knew my kids were okay.

Well, you're blessed then because that's the realization most people have only on their deathbed. And you're very generous to tell your kids they don't need to defend you. I told my kids, Find the heaviest object you can lift and defend me at all costs. I know you did. That's your moral duty. Or I'm not paying for your college.

Just kidding.

I never talk to you. I love it. Well, I think you're an amazing person, and I am completely convinced whatever you do next will be worth watching it. We will be, and I'm grateful that you came.

Thank you.

It means the world that-Oh, I mean it.

It means the world that you care so much about this country. It's everything. As an army kid, what you do, and it's been a choice, you didn't have to do this. You didn't have to continue to stand up and speak truth. You are the role model for me and so many others. So thank you. Well, it's been easy and fun.

But Steve Steele, thank you very much.