When Tracy Raquel Burns was two years old, her baby brother died.

I was told that Matthew died in an accident.

Her parents told police she had killed him. I'm Nancy Glass. Join me for Burden of Guilt, the new podcast that tells the true and incredible story of a toddler who was framed for murder. Listen to Burden of Guilt on the iHeartRadio App Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

A brand new historical true crime podcast. When you lay suffering a sudden, brutal death. Starring Allison Williams, I hope you'll think of me. Erased the murder of Elma Sands.

She was a sweet, happy, virtuous girl until she met that man right there.

Written and created by me, Allison Flock.

Is it possible, sir, we're standing by for your answer.

Erased the murder of Elma Sands on the iHeartRadio App Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

What's up to all the ghosts, ghouls, gremlins, and goblins? This is Belly, and this Halloween, get ready to be scared, stupid. My new show, hip Hop Horror Stories, featuring horrifying tales from your favorite hip hop personalities like French Montana, Ty Dolla, Sign Ian Dior and many more. Listen to hip hop horror stories on the iHeartRadio App or wherever you get your podcasts.

It's the latest turn in a battle by Montgomery County prosecutor John McCarthy to get Hoggle declared competent to stand trial, despite doctors opinions that she's not. Hoggle, has been in a secure state psychiatric hospital since the children's disappearance in 2014. Their bodies have never been found.

In April, doctors reported Hoggle's competency is unrestorable. The state's attorney's office has continuously challenged this conclusion.

It's November 2022, and Catherine Hoggle, charged with two counts of murder, has been considered incompetent. For nearly five years, the Montgomery County.

Community has wondered what happened to three year old Sarah and two year old Jacob. Their mother, 36 year old Catherine Hoggle, was the last person seen with them. She was charged with murder after refusing police say, to share any information about their whereabouts.

The media following the case has ebbed and flowed over the years since the kids disappeared. But this week, they are back in full force.

In three days, murder charges will be.

Dropped against Catherine Hoggle if she is not found competent to stand trial. This is according to state law. Hey. Really down to the wire, huh?

Yeah. Three days of hearings.

Sarah and I are catching up with Troy Turner, his wife Stephanie, and their friend and lawyer, Matt Alleghi.

It's just really overwhelming. I don't know. I mean, I think she's going to be out. I just think she's going to be out, and I think that's the wrong thing. I think that society looks at her as a child murderer and so they're like, they will never let someone like her out. But that's just not the way the world works.

My read is that it doesn't look good.

Over three days, judge James Bonifont has been hearing testimony about whether or not Catherine could capably assist her attorney in her own defense. As part of the state's argument, prosecutors asked the judge to go back and watch tapes of Catherine during this and prior hearings to pay attention to her interactions with her attorney, David Felson, her attentiveness and body language during the cross examination.

She's sitting there yelling at the attorney, pulling him over, pointing at notes, telling him things. The last day she came in, she brought in a piece of paper to Felson handed to him where she had highlighted things for him. I mean, that's where I keep going. Well, there has to be at least some chance, because they were literally doing in front of him what they're saying they can't do.

All right, well eagerly await news, and thank you for your time again tonight.

Thanks, guys.

Thanks. Bye.

I'm Beth Carras, and this is Unrestorable, an original podcast from anonymous content and iHeartRadio.

So, dr. Brown, would you please raise your right hand and listen to the courtroom clerk, please, sir? The himself. We swear to affirm in the penalties of perjury that the response is given if statements made to be the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I do. Thank you.

This is the hearing Troy has been pushing for for more than eight years. He wants Catherine questioned by a judge, her competency examined by a court. Outside of what he sees as her protectors at Perkins, he's been trying to convince anyone who will listen that Catherine needs to be held accountable. This competency hearing is his last chance. If she's yet again determined to be not competent to stand trial, the murder charges will be dismissed in advance of the December 1 deadline, and Troy's determination to have her charged with his children's murders will be defeated, maybe for good.

Doctor, state your name for me. Adam Brown. Thank you.

Dr. Adam Brown, a psychiatrist at Clifton T. Perkins Psychiatric Hospital, is the doctor who most recently evaluated Catherine and concluded she was incompetent.

When you conducted your evaluation of Ms. Hoggle, what diagnosis did you confirm?

Dr. Brown is being questioned by David Felson, Catherine's attorney.

I confirmed a diagnosis of schizophrenia. Any other diagnosis? She also had diagnoses of a major depressive disorder and generalized anxiety disorder. And are there psychotic related manifestations concerning that diagnosis? Yes, there are. Can you explain to the court what is psychosis? So in a general sense, psychosis is the main product of schizophrenia. It's kind of the syndrome that schizophrenia produces. So generally that in a nutshell, is disconnection from reality in one or more ways. The commonly understood disconnects are auditory hallucinations or visual hallucinations. Someone with psychosis, as you've described, at least as it manifests itself with ms. Hoggle, can they answer questions like who's the judge? What the charges are against you? In other words, what we've been calling sort of the prong one questions? Yes, they can. As in my report and some of the examples of Ms. Hoggle answering those questions, she might initially answer the question correctly, albeit maybe superficially. This is just kind of a generalization for most of her responses during my assessment. But then she would derail is a term we use for it. She would move on to another topic that was either loosely related or not related at all to the prior question.

So even when she answered the question appropriately, if allowed to continue, moved very far away from the response that was needed.

This question of derailing is key to the insistence that Catherine is not competent to assist counsel. That while she might, upon superficial examination, appear capable and aware, that appearance masks a highly disoriented core that prevents her from grappling with anything beyond the most basic questions. From what Dr. Brown describes, she just isn't capable of providing the kind of complex information required to defend herself against murder charges, information like alibi witnesses and exculpatory evidence. But for the prosecution, the question isn't one of Catherine's capacities. It's what she's willing and unwilling to do. And this is the tack Assistant State's Attorney Ryan Wexler takes as she cross examines Dr. Brown.

It's certainly possible that Ms. Hoggle is making a choice to derail because she doesn't want to answer questions about her case. That's possible, isn't it?

It's possible, but I don't think that's what's going on.

You heard Mr. Turner testify last week, right?

Correct.

And that he testified that Ms. Hoggle told him that she was advised to stay incompetent.

I recall that, yes.

Troy Turner isn't the only person who has noted that Catherine has expressed interest in remaining incompetent. Another psychiatrist at Perkins, Dr. Christian Telipson, also examined Catherine.

And were you also aware that in Dr. Tolleson's report, when Dr. Tolipson talked to Ms. Hoggle, ms. Hoggle told her she did not want to become competent? Were you aware of that?

No, I've not read Dr. Tollson's report.

That if Ms. Hoggle stays incompetent, her case will be dismissed by the court. Right?

Sure.

Dr. Brown was a witness for Catherine's side. Dr. Talifson was called by the know.

Competency is in the moment. It's in the here and now. But it's also a question of their capacity to be competent. So we're looking at somebody's underlying abilities to sort of rise to the occasion. Can they pull themselves together? If they have to. So I'm looking at what have they been doing in the past? How does that affect their ability to be able to pull themselves together at certain times for their court proceedings?

Is there a difference between capacity and willingness to become competent, in your opinion?

Plenty of defendants are fully capable of being competent, but will exhibit all sorts of symptoms in order to not be competent.

Dr. Televson was also questioned about whether Dr. Brown's assessment was sufficient. He spent 90 minutes with Catherine, and that was seven months prior to this hearing.

In the course of a normal evaluation for competency, would you feel comfortable announcing an opinion relative to competency if you had not seen the patient for seven months?

I could talk about what I thought the defendant was like seven months ago, but sometimes it depends on the defendant, because I've certainly had patients or defendants at Clifton T. Perkins who were exactly the same from year to year to year, and so seven months is not going to make that much of a difference. But when you have a defendant or a patient who is doing medication trials or situations changing or things are evolving in their case, then you would want to revisit them right before their court appearance.

If there was evidence in the records that you were examining that suggested that the defendant that you were evaluating refused to answer questions that were asked of them because they were following the advice of their counsel not to answer the question, would you consider that in terms of competency?

I think that would be evidence of their ability to work with their attorney.

When Tracy Raquel Burns was two years old, her baby brother died.

I was told that Matthew died in an accident, and no one really talked about it.

Her parents told police she had killed him.

Medical records said that I killed my baby brother.

I'm Nancy Glass. Join me for Burden of Guilt, the new podcast that tells the true and incredible story of a toddler who was framed for murder and how she grew into an adult determined to get justice and protect her family.

While we had prosecuted some cold cases, this was the coldest.

This was frigid.

But how does a two year old get blamed for murder?

She said we wanted a new life. You just don't know what it's like when you'll do anything for somebody.

Listen to Burden of Guilt on the I Heart radio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

You a brand new, historical true crime podcast.

The year is 1800. City Hall, New York.

The first murder trial in the American judicial system.

A man stands trial for the charge.

Of murder, even with defense lawyers Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr on the case. This is probably the most famous trial you've never heard of. When you lay suffering a sudden, violent, brutal death, I hope you'll think of me. Starring Alison Williams. I don't need anything simplified, Mr. Hamilton. Thank you. With Tony Goldwyn as Alexander Hamilton.

Don't be so sad, Catherine. It doesn't suit you.

Written and created by me, Allison Flock. What are you doing? Let go of me. Listen to erased the murder of Elma Sand.

She was a sweet, happy, virtuous girl until she met that man right there.

On the iHeartRadio App Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast.

There'S a place beyond this place, a middle ground between the light and the darkness, the nader and the zenith. For some, it's a bridge between the living and the dead. Yet for others, it's something else entirely. It's the place where our nightmares dwell. Each one of us has touched the other side and felt the presence of something beyond this world. Welcome to Hip Hop Horror Stories. I'm your host, Belly, and each week we're going to take you to the limits of your imagination as we explore the reality of paranormal experiences. I believe in this shit for real. And the stories you're about to hear might make you believe, too. Everywhere I looked, I saw something. Then I looked closer and noticed there was a hooded figure. And whatever it is, it's like cave. It's like it became reality. Listen to Hip Hop Horror Stories on the iHeartRadio App Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Up to this point. After numerous hearings, dozens of reports, years in a psychiatric hospital, what we know about Catherine, we know through others. This hearing would bring something different to the table.

Tell me your name.

Catherine Ashley Hawkel.

This hearing would have a judge ask Catherine questions directly.

Thank you. How old are you?

36.

What's your birthday?

11 13 86.

Do you know what evidence is?

Yes, sir.

I don't want you to tell me anything about circumstances in this case, but generally, what is evidence?

Something that makes things. Something that's used for a case, good or bad.

When someone is charged with crime, should they talk to an attorney?

I'm not sure.

When prosecutors pushed the judge to question Catherine, they submitted more than a hundred questions they suggested he use to assess her competency.

Do you know what attorneys do?

Yes, Your Honor.

Tell me what attorneys do.

They prosecute or defend a patient. I mean a client.

What should an attorney know?

What happened at the alleged crime?

Catherine isn't under oath, and this isn't a criminal trial. But the consequences are major. If the court upholds the repeated conclusions of incompetency by the doctors at Perkins, then the charges will be dismissed.

Is there anything else that they should know?

I can't think of anything right now. I'm not very good at public speaking.

Have you ever heard of the phrase attorney client privilege?

Yes, sir.

What do you think that means?

It's private conversation with you and your attorney.

Thank you very much, ma'am.

Thank you.

And then it was overload. The interaction you just heard isn't a small clip of the exchange between Catherine and the judge. It's the sum of his questions for her. Eleven questions in total. Even more, each of his questions appeared related to the first prong of competency, that she understands the system and charges and proceedings, something her lawyer has already conceded. It was impossible to guess what Judge Bonifont would do with this information. What he saw when he looked at Catherine hoggle slightly slumped in her seat. What he heard when she answered his questions. Capably, though not without some hesitance and with a certain childlike simplicity. Were these the answers of a woman who couldn't see through a fog of mental illness? Were they the words of a woman who has been scheming, manipulating, malingering, and ultimately prevailing over any number of medical professionals for the last eight years? Everyone in the courtroom listened intently, but maybe most of all was Troy. He was sitting just feet away, closely, watching every move, clocking every statement. Catherine made a slow reel of eight years of surreal history flashing through his mind. But all Troy could do was wait for the afternoon of November 30, 2022, when Judge Bonifant delivered his decision.

All right, thank you, everyone. Please have a seat. All right, everyone. The first issue before the court is whether defendant Catherine Hoggle is presently competent to stand trial.

If the judge decides that Catherine is competent contradicting the repeated findings of several doctors at Perkins, then she will be arraigned on murder charges in the deaths of Jacob and Sarah, setting up a rare no body double homicide. Prosecution.

Pursuant to an indictment handed down on September 14, 2017, defendant faces two counts of murder. The defendant is charged with first degree murder of her two children, Sarah and Jacob. The court does not find the state has met its burden beyond a reasonable doubt in light of the fact that it has now been five years since the first finding of dependence incompetency. Count one and two of the indictment are dismissed.

And with that, the murder charges against Catherine Hoggle are gone.

The court finds the defendant meets their criteria for involuntary confinement. Pursuant to Section 3161, catherine will not be released.

She will be remanded to Perkins until she's deemed no longer a threat to herself or others. But she will be outside of the purview of the criminal justice system. Now she's just another patient.

She has been diagnosed with schizophrenia, major depressive disorder, and general anxiety disorder. She suffers from chronic symptoms of impaired judgment, poor insight, paranoia, and disorganized thinking. Without the structure and stability of a hospital setting, she would be a danger to herself or others. Given the limited insight into her illness and her desire to discontinue her medications, she is unwilling and unable to sign a voluntary treatment agreement. There is no less restrictive environment that is consistent with their welfare and safety.

After the judge is finished delivering his decision, he invites Troy to speak to the court.

Mr. Turner? Yes, sir. Thank you.

After taking a moment to collect himself, Troy stands. He's wearing a T shirt with Sarah and Jacob's pictures on it. Sarah and Jacob are smiling sweetly at the camera, maybe at their dad.

This is a travesty, and my kids are gone. She's going to go on with her life. My kids don't have one. They were two and three when they were taken. And everything that they were ever going to be or accomplished is taken from them by her. And now I have to sit here and listen to charges get dropped and her rights are being touted where are my kids rights? Where are the children's rights to be safe? Where is anyone's rights in this whole system other than a criminal like her? And I'm telling you right now, I'm not disregarding that she is mentally ill. I know that I personally have had her committed. But what I can tell you is there was a lot of lies told in this court, none of them by me, but that has all now prevailed. I do appreciate you. I don't mean any disrespect to you or your, but the system is broken, and it's got to change. Thank you.

A little while later, the state's attorney held a press conference in front of the courthouse.

Thank you. My name is John McCarthy. I'm a state attorney for Montgomery County. The charges were dismissed against her today by Judge Bonifit in court about five minutes ago. But there still remains several important points for the community to know about this matter. Ms. Hagel will not be free in the community, as we just witnessed a few minutes ago. She will be involuntarily committed by an order signed by this judge because she remains a danger to herself or others. She is committed by court order today. Today we have the right to recharge. There is no double jeopardy that applies here. This is not a double jeopardy situation. The state has the right to recharge. I will tell you, as long as I'm state's attorney, it would be my intent that if she is a judge, to be safe, to be turned to the community. The circumstances would be such that we would recharge her, even if we have to revisit the issue of competency again. My personal hope is that we will not have justice ultimately denied, but merely delayed.

The next day, Sarah and I jumped on a plane and headed to Maryland. Next time on Unrestorable we dive into the biggest remaining question. What happened to Sarah and Jacob?

As far as where their bodies are is a mystery.

As far as what happened, who took.

Them, who did it, there's no mystery there.

When we first got her, she had all this dirt under her fingernails. It looks like she was in the woods. So there's still a part of me that thinks, hey, they're still out there. And maybe we just miss them.

Unrestorable is executive produced and hosted by me, Beth Carras, and Sarah Trelevin. Our story editor is Kathleen Goldhar. Mixing and sound design by Mitchell Stewart for anonymous content. Jessica Grimshaw is our executive producer. Jennifer Sears is our executive in charge of production. And Nick Yanez is our legal counsel for iheart executive producer Christina Everett and supervising producer Abu Zafar.

When Tracy Raquel Burns was two years old, her baby brother died.

I was told that Matthew died in an accident.

Her parents told police she had killed him. I'm Nancy Glass. Join me for Burden of Guilt, the new podcast that tells the true and incredible story of a toddler who was framed for murder. Listen to Burden of Guilt on the iHeartRadio App Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

A brand new historical true crime podcast when you lay suffering a sudden, brutal death. Starring Allison Williams. I hope you'll think of me erased the murder of Elvis Sands.

She was a sweet, happy, virtuous girl until she met that man right there.

Written and created by me, Allison Flock.

Is it possible, sir? We're standing by for your answer.

Erased the murder of Elma Sands on the iHeartRadio App Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

What's up to all the ghosts, ghouls, gremlins, and goblins? This is Belly, and this Halloween, get ready to be scared, stupid. My new show, hip Hop Horror Stories, featuring horrifying tales from your favorite hip hop personalities like French Montana, Ty Dolla, Sign Ian Dior and many more. Listen to hip Hop horror Stories on the iHeartRadio App or wherever you get your podcasts.