If you're about to use an electrical appliance tonight that uses a lot of energy, just ask the question, is this a good time? If it's before 5:00 PM or after 7:00 PM, it is a good time because it's outside of peak hours when less of us are using electricity at the same time. To take more control of your electricity usage, go to esbnetworks. Ie/time-to-sign-up. Esb Networks, energizing your everything. In 2017, Libby Caswell was found dead in a motel room in Independence, Missouri.

We have a term called JDLR, which means just.

Don't look right. On season two of my podcast, What Happened to, I take a closer look at Libby Caswell's life and death. Libby's case keeps me awake at night. What happened to her is unknown. That's something that I need to know. Listen to what happened to Libby Caswell on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Chelsea Paredi. Do you feel chronic existential dread but love talking about delicious snacks? Call me, my podcast is relaunching. Do you fear wild, dangerous animals to the point where you're constantly watching attack videos and reading articles about wild animal attack survivors or those who succumb to attack? Call in. We can also discuss reality shows and emergency room footage. Listen to call Chelsea Paredi on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

For the record, Anthony Hughes, 26th district, I get the sixes and the sevens mixed up, but this is 507. This is the one that would extend the amount of time that the court can dismiss the charge of a defendant who is incompetent to stand trial and who was charged with first-degree murder or sexual assault.

In March 2023, Maryland state Senator Anthony Hughes was introducing a new bill, SB 507, to a Senate committee in Annapolis.

It changes that time period from five years to a reasonable time of 10 years. And also, this legislation would allow the actual victim or the victim's representative to petition the court to extend the time for dismissal of certain charges against a defendant who has found incompetent to stand trial.

This bill is in direct response to what Troy Turner and his family have been going through.

So the question comes, why is this important? This legislation is important because of the victims like my panelists from whom you'll hear, Mr. Troy Turner, who must have a voice. And I think once you hear his story today, you'll understand why we need this bill.

Troy is sitting in the gallery, waiting his turn to speak, wearing his signature uniform, a T-shirt with pictures of a smiling, Sarah and Jacob.

I guess before I get into the story in the first for the.

Record, you have missed her.

My name is Troy Turner. I'm a father of Sarah and Jacob Hagle. Some of you may not already know who they are. They're my two children who were taken and their mother murdered them. After the.

Crushing disappointment of the murder charges against Katherine being dismissed, this feels like a way for Troy to keep his fight alive.

I've been trying to find them ever since to bring them home for a peaceful rest.

Today, Katherine is still living at Perkins, but she's only committed civilly, not criminally, which means that in time, if doctors sign off, she could eventually leave the psychiatric hospital and begin to ease back into life on the outside. We reached out to Katherine both directly and through her lawyer and never heard back from her. I have a.

Son now who was six at the time and is now 14. Very soon I figured we're going to have to sit down and tell him that as her third intended victim, the police believe, and we know she was coming back for him.

Troy wants a 10-year window of incompetency before murder charges can be dismissed. In fact, there was a 10-year window for capital crimes, including murder, until the state of Maryland repealed the death penalty in 2013. As her third.

Intended victim, we're going to have to sit him down and tell him that she's out there at some point. From everyone who I've spoken to, it doesn't seem like it's going to be very long, quite frankly.

Troy believes that this expanded time frame would have given Perkins more time to treat Katherine or catch on to any deliberate efforts she may have taken to remain deemed incompetent.

We're basically just asking to fix that oversight and put the 10-year period back for the egregious acts that would be capital offenses. As the law now stands, it's pretty much just the same bar. If you murder two children or if you steal a $1500 television.

I'm Beth Karris, and this is Unrestorable, an original podcast from Anonymous Content and iHeart Radio.

It's weird because you know something's coming, but it's almost like if you have an elder in your family who's been sick for a long time and you know they're going to die, but then when they pass, it's like you're still never really prepared, even though you knew it was coming. It was like that. We knew what was coming, but the feeling still hit. The anger is still there. The disappointment in the system.

When Beth and I met with Troy, his wife, Stephanie, and Matt Alleghi in Matt's suburban law office after the charges against Katherine were dismissed, the three of them looked tired and defeated like they hadn't slept for months.

I feel like I let down Sarah and Jacob.

Troy, typically gregarious, was subdued. A ballcap pulled low over his eyes. Stephanie, always warm and a bit high strung, was doubly anxious and appeared to be subsisting on mostly energy drinks. Matt seemed unsure of what might be helpful. They were lost, unmoored, and now facing a terrible prospect, grappling with the grief they've been carrying for almost a decade in the absence of a clear purpose. Having the charges dismissed, and we have lots of you on record about how devastating it is, but does the advocacy feel different? Does it feel like you're coming at this from a totally different place, or does it feel like you're still just every day more of the same for Sarah and Jacob?

I don't think those two are exclusive from each other. I mean, it's both. We have a lot of the same conversations, but then it extends into things like protecting our family, protecting our son. Now it's like, where do we go from there in terms of... I mean, she can't get questioned or anything. You know what I mean, there's really no recourse because the only person who really knows what happened at this point is her. The only people who may know something would be the people who were around her then. It's like, okay, so we really don't have any way to even go after your information at that point other than just advocating, trying to figure out just off ways to put pressure. I don't even know what to do at that point. At that point, Matt, Stephanie, and myself, we have to sit down and go, Okay, so now where do we go from here? To me anyway, I feel almost like I'm lost, like I'm on this trip and now I'm in the middle of nowhere. I'm not quite sure which way to go at that point, but I know I got to go somewhere.

Troy is particularly worried that he might not be notified about Katherine's potential release, that she might be moved to a lower security unit and try to escape.

So it goes to a civil commitment for Katherine, which means we are supposedly going to get updates if she's… I believe if she's moved facilities, if she dies, there are certain things we would get updates on. The state's attorney's office to police don't get updates on anything. We're not so sure. We don't have a lot of faith in the system at this point, much less in Perkins that they're going to be held accountable for anything. We're hoping that we're kept abreast of what's going on so that that allows us to keep the people around us safe. When she's deemed not dangerous, then she will walk out those doors and she could move next door to you. You wouldn't know it.

Katherine would have to go through a lot of doors before she could move out on her own. She still has to be found not a danger to herself or others and be put on a discharge plan. The state could also bring charges against her down the road once she's been found sufficiently competent for release. It's worth noting that Perkins has since updated their policy on one-on-one therapy for patients. But the new guidelines note that the hospital, quote, endeavors to protect incompetent to stand trial and pretrial patients from any adverse legal consequences that may arise out of individual therapy. It's a long and potentially difficult road, but it's one that Catherine's mother, Lindsay, is still willing to walk with her. For Lindsay, everything about this case has been loaded with ambivalence, and that now includes Catherine's charges being dismissed and her ongoing civil commitment. I go out anywhere, and I think, Oh, I see those cute earrings. That would look good on Catherine. And you realize she wears basically prison guard. I mean, we bought her some... She asked for a coat because the board gets so cold, so her dad got that. I've sent her things like that.

I've sent her books, puzzle-tight books, but it's like being in prison. But as a friend of mine said, she's warm, she's safe within reasons. It's just hard for some of the patients that she has to deal with. It's not any existence, really. Do you have any sense of what her day-to-day life is like right now? They're very strict. All along they're like, We're not going to let her have extra privileges because it's high profile. I'm like, I don't expect you to. They have different activities, but they don't have really have privileges of any sort. I mean, people think that they're living a luxury life. They don't have the internet. They have restricted television and restricted movies. When it's COVID lockdown, they can only move around on their ward. It has access to an outdoor area, but it has to be warm enough. Lindsay's primary goal now is to get Catherine the help she believes she needs. She may be released. I don't think that the court has that they have much choice at some part. My only comment to her was, if you're released in any program, which you never know, but I would hope they would have a step down integration into normal life, I said, It's not okay for you to be released without knowing what happened to Sarah and Jacob.

She always says, Nothing happened. I said, Well, then without knowing where Sir and Jacob are, good, bad, or ugly, it's become where it's cruel not to tell us. If you're about to use an electrical appliance tonight that uses a lot of energy, just ask the question, is this a good time? If it's before 5:00 PM or after 7:00 PM, it is a good time because it's outside of peak hours when less of us are using electricity at the same time. To take more control of your electricity usage, go to esb. Networks. Ie/time-to-sign-up. Esb Networks, energizing your everything. In 2017, Libby Caswell was found dead in a motel room in Independence, Missouri.

We have a term called JDLR, which means just don't look right.

My name is Melissa Jeltson. I've spent the last year talking to Libby's friends and family, uncovering details of her life and the secrets that may have endangered it.

I knew she was.

Doing something, but she just wouldn't admit it to me at first. Join me on a journey to uncover what really happened to Libby, Caswell. Everyone deserves to.

Know the truth.

And if there is.

Something that.

Was not right, then someone should be held accountable.

I think.

The law is set up to punish families in this situation. Libby's case.

Stands out.

In my mind and keeps me awake at night. What happened to her is unknown. It's something that I need to know. Listen to what happened to Libby Caswell on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Chelsea Peretti. Do you feel chronic existential dread, but love talking about delicious snacks? Call me. My podcast is relaunching. Subscribe and treat yourself to sound effects like this and this. Have you ever been attacked by a bear? Yeah. Yes. And moments like this. I happen to fall asleep in front of a space heater. No. And my whole leg. I put my knee down and my foot burnt until it's a big bubble. And this, kale chips are delicious. They're too oily when I get them. They shouldn't be soft at all. They should be really crispy. That's what I said every single time. You are yelling at me. And this. Do you want to go to the Clipper's game with me tonight? Do you have 25 references of mutual friends that can tell me that you're not a murderer? And this. Hold on, I got to open some peanut butter, pretzels. Listen to call Chelsea Peretty on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

But that hope, that Katherine will one day lead people to the kids. It's not easy to hold on to that hope. Does she imagine a world or does she talk about a world in which she's reunited with all three children? She has. She has. You know, and part of that has been me saying, You understand that if the charges are dropped, it's not just you're free to go get the children and raise your children. Now, I'm not sure how much of that is in her disorder thinking and how much is real. But the question of where Sarah and Jacob or their remains might be or Katherine's continued insistence that they are still alive or even that Catherine is pretending to be delusional, those aren't the most pressing fears Troy and Stephanie have right now. We're probably more terrified right now than we've ever been. The idea that Katherine might look to reunite with her oldest son to seek him out in any way is a worry that keeps them up at night, ruminating about all of the awful possibilities. I mean, what can you even do at this point? I mean, I'm with him almost all the time.

I mean, he obviously goes to school and stuff, but we have safety plans in place at the school. For years, I've been doing a lot of things to keep him protected, but it's hard. I know that she wants to reconcile with him.

There's absolutely no reason she's not going to try to show up somewhere where he is. I don't necessarily think she's going to show up at my front door where she knows I am or something, but if she can figure out somewhere where she thinks he might be, there's nothing to stop her from showing up. I mean, what's going to stop her? What? The police may come and then what? And say stop or we'll say stop again? Now you.

Just have to deal with a huge amount of fear that compounds the grief you've already been living in for years.

Do you think you could get a protective order, a permanent order?

There's no way to. I mean, think about it. I mean, battered women who have been beat up and put in the hospital can't get a protective order until they're damn near killed. That's why you have women who die in those situations because nobody wants to do nothing until something already happens. It's the same thing.

These feelings of powerlessness, of being forced to sit on his hands to wait for another very bad thing to happen, is part of what propelled Troy to pursue legislative change.

We try to change it going forward for other families and other people, other victims. We try to change it hopefully at some point going forward for us. So where we're at is we have to get this changed and fix it so other people don't go through it this way. I saw a reporter speaking about it, and the anchor asked him, So what is the state doing to make sure this doesn't happen again? And he just stopped. He said, Well, nothing. He was like, In the current system, this could happen over and over again.

My name is.

Troy Turner. I want to thank you guys for hearing me out first. I'm the father of three children. Two of them were murdered by their mother at ages two and three.

In April 2023, Troy was back at the State House in Annapolis to push for reform. His bill had been passed through a Senate committee, and he was now appearing before a House Committee. He was given two minutes to make his case.

One by one, she took my kids by age, youngest to oldest at age two, age three, and then my five-year-old, thank God she was stopped before she got him. He's still a minor, and I am terrified that she's going to get out and come after him. Like I said, she's under a civil commitment, so that could be at any point in time. We just want to fix what was broken by accident.

Troy wasn't the only person who spoke that day in support of the bill.

Senate Bill 507 is necessary to protect public safety, but it also continues to protect the rights of defendants with disabilities.

That's Tracey Vardo of the Baltimore City State's Attorney's office. She runs the mental health courts in Baltimore City on behalf of her office.

So this 10-year provision needs to be reinstated for the following reasons. First of all, currently, Criminal Procedure 3-107 allows dangerous defendants to walk free. Second reason, 10 years will allow more time for dangerous defendants to receive treatment and become competent. Thirdly, this bill protects the defendant's rights. Importantly, the judge still retains the right to dismiss any charges at any time the court believes is unjust, and this only applies to dangerous defendants. There was.

Also opposition to changing the statute.

My name is Mary Piazzo. I'm the supervising attorney for the Forensic Mental Health Division of the Office of the Public Defender. And I'm respectfully requesting that the committee issue an unfavorable report on Senate Bill 507.

Mary Piazzo of the Public Defender's office was calling in from her car. It's her job to provide legal counsel and advocacy for people with mental health issues who are involved in the criminal justice system. And she worried that changes to this bill would lead to an erosion of rights for defendants, not an increase in rights for victims.

The amendments to criminal procedure 3107 are unnecessary, clinically inappropriate, and inconsistent with constitutional principles regarding those deemed incompetent to stand trial, tying a further increase in length of hospitalization into the severity of the crime is based on a rationale of punishment rather than treatment, even though these individuals have not yet, and in fact, may never be convicted of any crime. But in the.

End, it was a father's grief that echoed through the chamber. One man against a system determined to create purpose from his personal tragedy, no matter how painful.

I'll be very honest with you. It's not easy for me to come here and relive this.

Even if changing this statute could never turn back the clock.

I've been doing it over the past few years. I've been here several times. Please do not make me come back again and do this. Please fix this while you can. It needs to be fixed now.

I heard later that when Troy spoke, some of the committee members had tears in their eyes. But in the end, it didn't matter. In late April, Matt emailed. He said the bill didn't pass the House. Everyone's a little worn down right now, he said. This was the last major card Troy had to play. For now, nothing would change.

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We have a term called JDLR, which means just don't look right.

My name is Melissa Jeltson. I've spent the last year talking to Libby's friends and family, uncovering details of her life and the secrets that may have endangered it. I knew she was doing something, but she just wouldn't admit it to me at first. Join me on a journey to uncover what really happened to Libby Caswell. Everyone deserves to.

Know the truth. And if.

There is.

Something that was not.

Right, then someone should be held accountable.

I think.

The law is set up to punish families in this situation. Libby's case.

Stands out.

In my mind and keeps me awake at night. What happened to her is unknown. It's something that I need to know. Listen to what happened to Libby Caswell on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Chelsea Paredi. Do you feel chronic existential dread, but love talking about delicious snacks? Call me. My podcast is relaunching. Subscribe and treat yourself to sound effects like this and this. Have you ever been attacked by a bear? Yeah. And moments like this. I happen to fall asleep in front of a space heater. No. And my whole leg, put my knee down and my foot. I'm burnt until it's a big bubble. And this, kale chips are delicious. They're too oily when I give them. They shouldn't be soft at all. They should be really crispy. That's what I said every single time. You are yelling at me. And this. Do you want to go to the Clipper's game with me tonight? Do you have 25 references of mutual friends that can tell me that you're not a murderer? And this. Hold on, I got to open some peanut butter pretzels. Listen to call Chelsea Peretti on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

For the next few months, it was hard for Bethany to get Troy and Stephanie on the phone. Matt told us they needed a break. They seemed more insular in their grief, more exhausted by so many defeats, less galvanized by the fight, and less convinced that putting everything out there, sharing the intimate details of the horror they've been living with for nine years was going to help them move forward in any way. How are you channeling things right now? But eventually, in August, we did connect.

So we keep in touch with our PI and see if there's anything that we can run with him, if we can come up with searches.

For years, Troy had been working with a private investigator who ran his own searches for the kids, followed up leads, all pro bono. He wasn't able to turn up much that the police didn't already know. In this case, it's been all dead ends.

Stephanie, God bless her on how she does it, but she manns the page and she talks to people and put stuff out there, just stuff like that. We're going to be fighting obviously to get law changes done. As new information comes up, then whenever appropriate, we'll run searches. We're looking for new ways to search. We're looking at... I don't even remember what the initials are, but we're trying to look into some...

What is that stuff? The heat. You know what I'm talking about? I just can't think of it off the top.

Of my head. I can't remember what it's called. Three initials, that thing. We're looking at new ways, but I think that's just it. None of it has to do with just throwing pictures out there and hoping someone saw something at this point. Because for lack of a better term, that's pretty useless to us at this point because that's been done for nine years now. We've talked to people who have viable stories. We've talked to people who are just crazy. We've talked to people who, quite frankly, don't mean any malice or trying to get false leads, but they just really want to help so bad when they see something that maybe, possibly could have been halfway coincidental, then they make it something that it wasn't because they want to help so bad.

It's counterint, but the overwhelming public involvement in this case, the generation of thousands of leads, many from people who believe they're helping, actually complicates things for the family and maybe for any future prosecution of Katherine.

Well, now it's all stuff that either we have to run out or let's say they do re-arrest Katherine. Let's say they actually get to a point where they're pressing charges. Well, we just gave her her case for reasonable doubt because there's 1,000 leads that were never run. There's 10,000 leads that were never run.

That's Troy and Stephanie's friend and lawyer Matt.

Right. No, but I'm saying there's 1,000 newer ones even. Every time there's a news story, they get a call from Australia and the same time they get a call from Scotland. I see the kid. Yeah, we've had several leads in Scotland.

Do you think that Katherine will ever tell you what happened to the kids that night? No, I.

Don't think she will. There's nothing in it for her to do it.

For years, as Troy has advocated for Katherine to be prosecuted, he's made clear that he's not simply seeking to punish her, that his desire for a trial isn't just about vengeance. Troy believes that the threat of prison, real prison, not being confined in a high-security psychiatric facility is the only thing that might finally push Catherine to reveal what happened the night of September seventh, 2014.

She said she's not safe in jail.

Now that crucial piece of leverage is all but gone.

There's really no one pressing her in order for it to even happen. The institution itself, of the courts, the justice system isn't pressing her. In fact, they're protecting her. Perkins isn't pressing her.

Troy will never stop looking for Sarah and Jacob. With Stephanie's help, he'll do everything he can to protect his oldest son.

There's no end to the road there, so we keep fighting. We keep looking. If we never find them, I'll die looking. But the.

Path ahead is murky. There's no real recovery for this family. Just the day to day of putting one foot in front of the other, under the watch of two children now present, only in the pictures that line their walls. Often when you lose someone, you have a place where you can memorialize them. You go to a gravesite and spend time with them. You have an urn that reminds you they were once here. Do you have some version of that where you can spend time with them? Or is that just a key thing that you've been lacking that you need?

I don't know. I don't even like when people use words like closure. There's no closure to this. If we found their bodies to this, it's not closure. My kids are gone. For me, I don't know. I think, Stephany, may have a different opinion on probably what I think I need or whatever because sometimes I just whatever, I don't know. Even if their bodies are there, they're not there. My kids aren't in my life anymore. They're not here.

To you is the accountability part, almost the bigger part.

Because… I think that would be something that would be helpful. I mean, there's no cure for it, but it would be helpful if I didn't feel like someone just took them and it's fine. Like, Oh, that's cool. They took your kids. Okay, whatever. They killed your kids. Cool. Okay. It's like, What the hell is that? I don't even think I really care how the accountability came about. If it's she's in jail, if it's that they find her and they NCR, and then she's at least locked away from society for 35 years. Or if she jumped out a window, I don't care. As long as there's some form of accountability there, that would be helpful.

Stephany, do you have a different take on this? Or do you agree with Troy? I think the accountability is a huge part of it because to a lot of people, this is just a story and these are real kids. My son is really missing his brother and sister. I know that he wants them here. However, he needs that. Like, memorial piece. He needs that. And that's one thing I can't give to him. And she was just able to take them and all this suffering, all the trauma that my son has endured, all the... I mean, this is so layered, people will never... It touches with and/or interferes with or hurts every part of everything, and creates things that you would have never had to deal with on every level. Every level in life. When you say that your son needs a memorial piece, do you mean like an end to the not knowing? Yeah. I mean, probably and something physical. Yeah, absolutely.

He needs a place to say, I can talk to my brother and sister. This is where they are.

That's really devastating. Yeah. Unrestorable

is executive produced and hosted by me, Sarah Trelevin, and Beth Kerris. Our story editor is Kathleen Goldheart. Mixing and sound design by Mitchellel Stewart. For anonymous content, Jessica Grimshaw is our executive producer, Jennifer Sears is our executive in charge of production, and nick Yanis is our legal counsel. For iHeart, executive producer Christina Everett and supervising producer Abu Zifar. In 2017, Libby Caswell was found dead in a motel room in Independence, Missouri.

We have a term called JDLR, which means just.

Don't look right. On season two of my podcast, What Happened to? I take a closer look at Libby Caswell's life and death. Libby's case keeps me awake at night. What happened to her is unknown. That's something that I need to know. Listen to What Happened to Libby Caswell on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Chelsea Peretti. Do you feel chronic, existential, dread, but love talking about delicious snacks? Call me. My podcast is relaunching. Do you fear wild, dangerous animals to the point where you're constantly watching attack videos and reading articles about wild animal attack survivors or those who succumb to attack, call in. We can also discuss reality shows and emergency room footage. Listen to call Chelsea Peretti on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Paine-Lindsey. Throughout my career, I've had the chance to travel all over the place investigating true crimes, researching the unexplained, and I've been able to meet some of the most truly interesting people. I've decided to sit down with them and pick their brains. We're going to.

Talk about.

Life, death, unsolved crimes, the supernatural. There's something here. Truly something going on. Honestly, just whatever the hell is on our minds. Wait a minute. You should be very happy. You want to get one? This is Talking to Death. New episodes of Talking to Death are available now. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.