Now's the time to make the move to Toyota hybrid electric. Feel the freedom of driving in electric mode for over half your journey without ever plugging in. Change the way you drive and leave diesel behind. Choose lower emissions driving and a brighter future for everyone.

Make the move.

Toyota built for a better world.

Hello, I'm Chelsea Peretti. Do you feel chronic existential dread but love talking about delicious snacks? Call me. My podcast is relaunching. Do you fear wild, dangerous animals to the point where you're constantly watching attack videos and reading articles about wild animal attack survivors or those who succumb to attack? Call in. We can also discuss reality shows and emergency room footage. Listen to call Chelsea Peretti on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players network on the iHeartRadio App Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

My name is Payne Lindsay. Throughout my career, I've had the chance to travel all over the place investigating true crimes, researching the unexplained, and I've been able to meet some of the most truly interesting people, and I've decided to sit down with them and pick their brains. We're going to talk about life, death, unsolved crimes, the supernatural. There's something here, truly something going on. And honestly, just whatever the hell is on our minds. Wait a minute. You should be very happy. This is talking to death. New episodes of Talking to Death are available now. Listen on the iHeartRadio App Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Daniel Tosh, host of new podcasts called Tosh Show. I'll be interviewing people that I find interesting, so not celebrities and certainly not comedians. We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling, but mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire or one that will really make you think this isn't the one for you, listen to Toss Show on the iHeartRadio App Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Get ready.

Will Lucas from Black Tech Green Money, the podcast for black techies with a passion for capital, is hosting a special event happening at State Farm Park in I Heartland. Will's gonna chat about the top ten things you should be doing to build your wealth. Don't miss this epic event starting Thursday, November 16, at 07:00 p.m.. Eastern, at State Farm Park in Iheartland on Roblox, available all weekend long. Be sure to check out State Farm's new Temple of Sound Maze minigame. Visit iHeartRadio.com slash iheartland to start playing today.

This story can be hard to hear. There's detailed talk of suicide and violence, but we think it's important not to gloss over the reality of what happened to Libby Caswell. Please take care while listening. So what age was Libby when you moved into this house?

She was in fourth grade, and her and Natalie just had chickenpox together when we moved here. Libby had it worse than Natalie. It was in her ears. And in her mouth and on her eyelids. I mean, it was everywhere.

I'm here in Independence, Missouri, standing in the living room of the small, tidy house that Libby grew up in. I came here to immerse myself in Libby's physical world, to meet the people who loved her and to see for myself the places she lived. Because often those physical spaces tell stories that people can't or won't. Libby's mom, Cindy and sister Natalie are showing me around and sharing stories about the family through the years. There are photos of Libby everywhere. Faded childhood prints, pictures of her and her son, and blown up portraits from a modeling shoot she did in her teens. Her family told me Libby loved the camera. She just posed and wanted to be.

In pictures all her life.

And I'm so glad they take me into the kitchen where the family would often spend time together.

She was a pretty good cook. She really taught me on fried chicken. She could really cook some fried chicken. I was like, wow, you've outdone, mom.

But mostly we stand outside Libby's old bedroom and talk.

She always painted it some really weird colors. When we first moved in, I painted my room pink and she painted hers, like, really bright lime green with a really dark green trim, and it was horrible. And then she had these big flower stamps all over it. And then she changed into, like, red and then to gold, and it was like her little space. And she wouldn't let me in. Most of the time she'd make me knock. And then even then, a lot of times, she told me to go away.

Sometimes, though, Libby relented and let Natalie in. The sisters would watch scary movies in bed, dance around to music.

She would sit in front of her mirror and watch herself sing. And I always would tease her and stuff for being out of tune or whatever, and she didn't care. She would just stare at herself in the mirror and have, like, a big brush in her hand or something, pretending to sing really loud. She was so funny.

As a child, Libby's room was her own private sanctuary. But as a teenager, it became a place where she and her boyfriend Devin retreated to together.

I never really knew what was going on because they just kind of locked themselves in there.

Whether they were sequestered in her bedroom or just home alone. No one saw what Libby and Devin were up to, but her family did start to notice that little things were different around the house, and not in a good way.

We'd come home sometimes when they were both here and things would be broken. One time we came home and we had that picture of Jesus hanging on the wall, and it was completely shattered.

There was damage that often went unexplained, like a dent in Libby's bedroom wall.

We were like, who put this hole here? Who did this, and everyone was like, we don't know.

I should be clear about my reporting history here. I'm a journalist who covers violence against women, and I tend to focus on a specific kind of violence, domestic violence, which occurs between people in intimate relationships. Through my decade of reporting, I've developed a keen eye and ear for picking it up. But I can tell you that domestic violence is, by design, difficult to see from the outside. Both the abuser and the person being abused have compelling reasons to hide what's going on. But hiding a secret of this magnitude, it's a lot of work. And as is often the case with secrets, it tends to find a way of making itself known in a bruise peeking out from a sleeve, a whispered admission to a friend, an argument behind not so closed doors. Take that hole that Cindy mentioned earlier. One day, she comes home from work and finds a hole in the wall of Libby's bedroom. Whatever hid it dented the drywall and splintered the paint around it. I can tell you from my experience in some homes, holes in walls are not innocent. They're not mistakes or accidents. But Libby wouldn't tell her family what had happened, and no one else had been in the room.

And so for a while, that's where Cindy's story of the whole ended. Until I started interviewing Libby's friends and the full picture began to emerge.

I remember it like it was yesterday. Her first Mother's Day. She called me. I ended up showing up over at her house, and she was just in tears.

This is Holly, one of Libby's best friends. Libby may not have confided in her mom or her sister about what happened that day, but she did tell Holly.

She said that Devin had slammed her head up against the wall and knocked her out and just left her there unconscious. She didn't ever tell me the extent of all the things that happened. I had to find out after her death.

From Iheart Podcast. I'm Melissa Jelson, and this is what happened to Libby Caswell.

There's a fire through your window. So why does she mine?

I take pride in the fact that I've never put my hands on a woman unless it's to stop her from hurting me. She's just been unhappy with her life anymore. The medical examiner ruled Libby's death undetermined. I go, what do you mean, they ruled undetermined?

It was just like he destroyed that safe space for her in her room. He rammed her head into the walls hard enough to put a dent in the wall the size of a bowling ball, you know? And we never knew the explanation because no one was home and no one knew. Watching the water while I sleep tonight.

Chapter Three domestic disturbance. Abusive relationships don't start with a head slammed into a wall. They start, like most relationships do, with flirtation and connection and excitement about what's to come, which is why I'm going to rewind six years before Libby's body was found in a motel bathroom. Six years before her boyfriend became a suspect in her death. Because to get the full picture of Libby and Devon's relationship, we have to start at the beginning. And at the beginning, it was sweet.

Oh, they were in love. They know young puppy love. It was always, oh, babe this, babe that, making up stupid nicknames that they'd call each other.

Libby's friend holly introduced them.

Freshman year, devin was in my math class. Libby had said that he was really cute before I knew that she was interested in him. I was standing in the hallway with Libby one day, and Devin walked past, and I was like, oh, hey, Devin. I was like, yeah, this is Libby. And then they started dating, I want to say maybe three weeks after that.

Libby's mom Cindy remembers meeting Devin in the beginning of their courtship. Her first impression was that he was a charismatic kid who attracted a lot of attention from the girls.

He reminded me of Justin Bieber. He had the long bang. He was always, know, tossing his head, doing his bangs. And I thought, wow, he's really cute.

Natalie, Libby's little sister, would sometimes tag along with the couple while they hung out.

They were just kind of like the perfect high school know, the bars cheerleader and the football player. And they seemed to really be into each other. And he'd come over, and he was always really respectful at first and just seemed like he was kind of the perfect boyfriend at the time for her.

But when Libby became pregnant at age 16, about a year into their relationship, natalie noticed a shift in how Devin treated her.

He would playfully do something or accidentally do something to make her really upset. And she would get upset, and he would kind of just be like, why are you overreacting?

One of Natalie's most vivid memories is what she refers to as the lighter incident.

They were downstairs in the basement, and he had the lighter, and he was playing with the lighter and touching it to her because the end of it was hot and thought it was funny and was laughing. And she kept telling him to quit. And then he lit it and touched it to her leg, and whatever she was wearing caught on fire. So she came upstairs just bawling. And he was just like, I don't know why you're acting like that. She was clearly extremely upset, and he had burned her clothes on her leg, and he just thought it was funny and was trying to just play it off like it was a joke.

From Natalie's perspective, devin was always pushing the limits with Libby, seeing what he could get away with before she'd get angry or burst into tears. And the limits he pushed could sometimes involve her physical body. What she would and would not tolerate.

It was just like, little things. Like he would come into her and bump her real hard or elbow her, and then she'd get upset and he'd be like, oh, I didn't mean to, or I was just messing with you kind of thing. And it just kind of escalated up. Like, he would just do things all the time like that.

Just a kid herself. Natalie wasn't sure what to make of Devin's behavior. Maybe that's just how boys acted when they really liked you.

They were really know. I was really young too, so I was just eh, they'll figure it out.

She wasn't the only one who noticed how Devin started to treat Libby differently once she got pregnant. Here's Holly again. He just started acting real.

Like, it wasn't like him and Libby were a couple anymore. It was just like Libby was his. What do you mean by like? It was like an obsession, kind of. You know, he could go out and do whatever he wants, but she couldn't even come over and hang out with me for a couple hours after she got done at school or on a weekend. She wasn't allowed to do anything at that point. Me and her were actually hanging out one night, and he started sending her threatening texts and stuff. It wasn't like outright like, oh, hey, I'm going to be your ass. It was like, oh, you'll see what happens. You'll see what happens whenever I see you again, and stuff like that.

Over the course of Libby's pregnancy, the couple broke up repeatedly. But each time they got back together, natalie again.

She would leave him for a little while, but she was pregnant, so things would come up where he'd have to come or she'd want him to come to an appointment. I always told her, you need to just find someone else and move on, and he can pay child support or come visit him or something, but you need to find someone else that treats you better. But she wanted her family to be together, so she always tried really hard for that to happen.

And Devin swore he wanted that too. I have a handwritten letter he wrote to Libby while she was pregnant. Quote, you and this baby are the two biggest blessings I've had in my life ever. I am more than happy. I'm honored to be your man and father of our child. Regardless of the hardships and challenges we've been through, it was most definitely worth it. Things will get better even further down the road. Remember this. You and me are in it until the end. But after Xavier is born in the spring of 2013, things don't get better. In fact, they get worse.

My mom and dad were at work. I don't even know what I was doing. Probably going to the kitchen. And when I passed by the bedroom that they were in, their door was open. I had heard them arguing, like they were kind of just quietly talking back and forth. But you could tell it was an argument. When I walked past, I saw him roll her to the side and just punch her really hard in the thigh. And she cried out and started crying and was upset. I was like, kind of like, what, did he just hit her?

This was the first time she'd actually seen Devin punch her sister. She couldn't believe her eyes. Natalie felt she needed to tell her mom right away.

And so when she got home and kind of, like, confronted them about it, libby was just like, no, you took it wrong. You didn't see that. Kind of like she was defending him. And I was like, well, I know what I saw, and I heard it. Like, I could hear it. He hit you really hard. And she just kind of was like, no, he was just playing. And she just defended him. And I don't know why.

Libby adamantly denied that Devin hit her. Not that time, not ever. Whatever Natalie had seen had been misinterpreted. Cindy, for her part, wasn't sure what was true. But she wanted to believe Libby.

I kind of felt something like I would feel something wasn't right. Or Natalie would say, mom, they were in the bedroom, and we heard this loud slap, and she cried. And I would say, libby, did he hit you today? No. Who told you that? We were just playing around or, you know, something like that. But then we seen the bruise on her leg.

Why would Libby try to hide the abuse from her family? There's no way for me to truly know. But I do have some ideas based on what I've learned from talking to other women in similar situations. Maybe Libby felt ashamed that her boyfriend would treat her so roughly and ashamed that she tolerated his behavior. Maybe she didn't want to give her mom another reason not to. Like Devin still holding out hope they could become a happy young family. Or maybe she truly believed that each time was an accident, each time an anomaly. Each time was the last. From Cindy's recollection this time period, the first few months after Xavier is born, is incredibly chaotic and tense. Libby, at 17, is trying to learn how to care for her newborn. Libby and Devin are fighting constantly, and they break up once again. This time, Cindy bans Devin from the house. But Devin doesn't listen. Instead, he shows the Caswell family just how much of a problem he could be.

He would either throw eggs at the house late at night, speed up and down the street. He would come and stand in the street and yell. He'd say, you better let me see my son.

Cindy felt the threats were escalating. And so finally, she decides to take action. She does something that would strain her relationship with her daughter and change the trajectory of Libby's story, something a lot of people do when faced with a potentially dangerous situation they can't handle alone. She calls the police.

I was hoping that the police would come immediately and catch him here. I was pretty naive.

Welcome to Flannels. Blanchardstown new luxury is here. Flannels luxury designer brands in fashion and beauty. Shop off White Stone Island, Canada. Goose and Palm angels and lots more. Head over to Flannels in Blantristown shopping center, where the party never stops.

Hello, I'm Chelsea Peretti. Do you feel chronic existential dread but love talking about delicious snacks? Call me. My podcast is relaunching subscribe and treat yourself to sound effects like this and this. Have you ever been attacked by a bear?

Yeah. Yes.

And moments like this.

I happen to fall asleep in front of a space heater. No. And my whole leg from my knee down in my foot burnt until it swollen. A big bubble.

And this kale chips are delicious.

They're too oily when I go.

They shouldn't be soft at all. They should be really crispy.

That's what I said every single time.

You are yelling at me. And this.

Do you want to go to the Clippers game with me tonight?

Do you have 25 references of mutual friends that can tell me that you're not a murderer? And this hold on, I got to open some peanut butter pretzels. Listen to call Chelsea Peretti on Will Ferrell's big money players network on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

My name is Payne Lindsay, and just like pretty much everyone else on the internet, I make podcasts. Throughout my career, I've had the chance to travel all over the place investigating true crimes, researching the unexplained. I've been able to meet some of the most truly interesting people, and I've decided to sit down with them and pick their brains. We're going to talk about life, death, unsolved crimes. If Bob wrote the cadaver note in his own words, he had murdered Susan Berman. Why do you think we're so obsessed with dark people?

Like the it's maybe part of human nature, the supernatural.

There's something here, truly something going on. Our biggest fears mental health, pop culture, just adrenaline.

Being on a film set is incredible.

And honestly, just whatever the hell is on our minds. Wait a minute. You should be very happy. This is talking to death. New episodes of Talking to Death are available now. Listen on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Daniel Tosh, host of new podcasts called Tosh show, brought to you by Iheart podcast. Why am I getting to the podcast game now? Well, seemed like the best way to let my family know what I'm up to. Instead of visiting or being part of their incessant group text, I'll be interviewing people that I find interesting. So not celebrities and certainly not comedians. I'll be interviewing my plumber, my stylist my wife's Gynecologist. We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling, but mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire or one that will really make you think, this isn't the one for you, but it will be entertaining to a very select few because you don't make it to your mid 40s with IBS without having a story or two to tell. Join me as I take my place among podcast royalty like Joel Olstein and Lance Bass.

Those are words I hope I'd never have to say. Listen to Toss show on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Get ready. Will Lucas from Black Tech Green Money, the podcast for black techies with a passion for capital, is hosting a special event happening at State Farm Park in Iheartland. Will's going to chat about the top ten things you should be doing to build your wealth. Don't miss this epic event starting Thursday, November 16 at 07:00 p.m. Eastern at State Farm Park in Iheartland on Roblox, available all weekend long. Be sure to check out State Farm's new Temple of Sound Maze minigame visit iHeartRadio.com iheartland to start playing today.

Everything falls apart in the summer of 2013, a few months after Xavier's birth, the very first time Cindy calls the police to report Devin. It's August 2, around eight at night. The police notes are simple white female and white male arguing in street caller is mother of female. And that's basically it. The call is flagged as a domestic disturbance. I can't tell from the police report if anyone talked to Libby or Devin about what was going on. But the visit doesn't seem to do much to abate the problem, because 7 hours later, Cindy calls again at 03:00 a.m to report that someone Devin she suspected was driving up and down her sleepy street, blasting loud music to harass them again. The police come, but there's nothing to see. The car is long gone. Over the next week, every time Devin shows up at the house, Cindy calls.

It would take him an hour, hour and a half sometimes after a while to come, and he would be long gone. He would laugh and say, they never going to catch me. I'm too smart for them. And yeah, he'd just run off.

And then there's the day that Devin stands across the street from her house, shirtless swinging a hammer. It's a blazingly hot Monday in August, and Cindy has the day off of work. She and Libby are inside the house, trying to keep the baby cool, and Devin's standing outside with the hammer, yelling, you better let me see my son. Cindy calls IPD again. Once more. By the time they arrive, Devin's gone. But the police are not particularly concerned by whatever happened with the hammer. Instead, they're annoyed by the frequency with which Cindy is calling 911 and frustrated by their encounters with Libby, the officers write in their report, quote, IPD had responded to the address five times in August 2013 for disturbances and building checks, all pertaining to Devon. Each time IPD has responded, Elizabeth has been very uncooperative. I've seen this word uncooperative a lot in my career, especially used to describe victims of domestic violence. We have very strong stereotypes about the ways that victims of domestic violence are supposed to act. Lee Goodmark is the director of the Gender Violence Clinic at the University of Maryland's Kerry School of Law. So a victim of domestic violence is supposed to be meek and weak and passive and grateful for the intervention of police.

When people don't act in conformity with this stereotype that says a victim will do anything that they can do to help with prosecution, then they are labeled uncooperative. There are many reasons why Libby might not have wanted to, quote, cooperate with the police. To start, it was her mom calling the authorities, not her. She may have been afraid of how Devin would react, or maybe she didn't want to see the father of her son in jail. And as far as Cindy recalls, IPD never spoke with Libby privately to gain more insight into her behavior and never asked questions about her safety. Even though police have been trained for the last 40 years around these issues, around these ideas about why people might not want to go forward with cases, why they might be afraid to talk to police, you still see police labeling victims uncooperative. And once a victim has that label, they are deemed less credible, which is exactly what happened in this case, because instead of offering Libby and Cindy support, IPD tells them to stop calling altogether.

They were like, you can't just keep calling 911. You're going to have to kick out your daughter and rectify this situation. You can't just keep calling 911. And we were like, she has a new baby. We're not going to throw her out in the street. She doesn't want him here.

IPD decides to use the law against them invoking a little known city ordinance that prohibits maintaining a nuisance property. A property might be considered a nuisance if the residents are selling drugs out of it or accumulating dangerous junk in the yard or really doing anything that their neighbors don't like. Ordinances like these are fairly common across the US. And often pretty vague. Much is left to the discretion of the officers, and in some cases, a person might be cited not for being a nuisance to their neighbors, but to the police for calling too many times, even if they're calling to report a crime that is being committed against them. Hours after the police respond to the Hammer incident, they send another officer to serve Cindy and her husband Robert with papers officially designating their house, a, quote, nuisance property. They're warned not to call the police again or risk a fine. Cindy robert and Libby all sign a copy.

And so they were like, well, we have a certain number of times that you can call and then we're going to press charges on you guys. I had never heard of that. I had never heard of nuisance to the law in any way and so it was know ridiculous to me. I didn't know though I was naive, I still trusted the police even though I thought they could come a little.

Quicker when I'd called Lee Goodmark again, the irony is that we tell people to call 911 if they're experiencing danger. We tell people that police are the ones who are supposed to protect them. We tell them that the criminal system is supposed to intervene in these cases. And then when they try to use that tool to do all of the things that they're told it's going to do, they're prosecuted. After the Caswell's house is flagged as a nuisance, cindy stops calling the police. Months go by. Some days are peaceful, others not so much. And without the option of calling the cops, cindy takes matters into her own hands.

One time him and his friends showed up outside and they got out of their car and was standing in my yard and taunting and saying, what are you about know, what are you going to do? And I went and got Robert's Samurai sword and went outside.

When Cindy told me this, I was kind of dumbstruck because I've spent a lot of time with her and I cannot imagine her wielding a weapon against anyone. She's one of the most gentle and mild mannered people I've ever met and.

The guy he was with yelled, dude, she has a sword. And they jumped in the car and took off.

Then one cold January morning, cindy hears Devin and Libby fighting. It scares Cindy enough that she does something she hadn't wanted to do since her house had been labeled a nuisance. She calls 911. When the police arrive, they handcuff Devin, but not because of his behavior towards Libby, because he had an outstanding warrant for an unpaid fine. He's led to a patrol car and according to the police report, libby panics and tries to run after him. The officer gives Libby a lecture. He writes in his report, quote, after a stern warning and conversation, I elected not to arrest Libby Caswell. The officer's note reminds me of what Lee Goodmark said about the stereotypes of domestic violence victims. In this moment, Libby isn't acting meek or passive or grateful for police intervention. She's not acting like a victim. So she's not, in my opinion, being treated like one. A couple months go by without any more 911 calls. But then one day Cindy walks into the living room and sees Devin tackle Libby on the couch, smothering her with his body.

That time he laid on her and she couldn't breathe. I called 911. I took a ball bat after him. And told him to get out of my house.

IPD shows up, but Devin's gone. They come back a few days later, this time looking for Cindy.

Three guys in a suit came with some officers, and they were like, here's your citation. Now you have a court date.

She and her husband Robert appear in court officially charged with maintaining a nuisance property. They plead guilty.

That was humiliating.

You know, they each have to pay a fine of $155.

We didn't break the law. We respected the law. We did everything we were supposed to. We licensed our vehicles and had this amount of animals and got their rabies shots, and, you know, we just lived life like normal people.

Cindy's experience with the police, the things they did and didn't do, it really burned her. And despite how unfair and unjust the citation seemed, cindy took it seriously. She stopped calling IPD. She had lost faith in the police ever helping them. And so she told me, had Libby.

It was kind of like it victimized her the way they did us and didn't do anything to him.

After all this goes down, libby ends up moving out of her childhood home, and for the next few years, hops from apartment to apartment around town. She sometimes lives alone or with a friend, but whenever she's with Devin, there are more 911 calls, this time coming not from Cindy, but from neighbors, friends, landlords. I have some of the reports here. Incident type domestic disturbance. Male and female going in and out of duplex fighting. Incident type disturbance. Two subjects screaming and fighting. Heard something hit the wall. Incident type domestic disturbance. Couple fighting in intersection. Can hear screaming and slamming. Door has been going on all day. Incident type domestic disturbance. Landlord called to report that Devin Martin came to home, destroyed property, and is trying to start fight with Libby. Incident type domestic disturbance. Since 06:00, a.m. Caller had received text from Libby caswell female in abusive relationship. Her son's father has been there on and off all day. Caller said Libby was afraid to call the police. Despite all of Cindy's calls and the calls of neighbors and friends, devin was never arrested or charged with domestic violence. Would it have been different if Libby was, quote, cooperative?

Or was there simply no way for the police to know what happened when the two of them were alone? I've tried repeatedly to contact Devin and get his side of the story, but he's never responded. Nonetheless, in the wake of Libby's death, these 911 calls, these reports of domestic disturbances spanning from 2013 to 2017, are what IPD had as context. There was even a protective order that Cindy obtained at one point to keep Devin away from the house. This history of alleged domestic violence, it seems highly relevant to Libby's death investigation, as, by Devin's own account, she died in a room alone with him, which is why it's so confounding that IPD didn't ask Devin about any of this. As far as we can tell, their long history of domestic disputes is not noted anywhere in her death investigation. In IPD's interview with Devin, he's not asked about any of these specific incidents. And when he offers up the claim that he had never hurt Libby in.

The past, not I would not ever do anything to harm her physically.

IPD just moves on to another topic. They really only push him about his possible involvement in her death once. And honestly, not very hard to put.

This to rest a little bit. Did something bad happen that things got out of control? No, sir. Positive. I'll put my hand on a Bible and I'll put it on everything I love, on my children, on my son's life. I would not ever do nothing like that. Never. Okay.

It's possible that IPD did review all these files and decided that they weren't relevant. To be clear, within the neatly typed reports about the conflict between the couple, there's no mention of an explicit act of physical violence. No black eyes or broken limbs. It's all a little murky, a little messy. And so if that was the extent of information IPD had, maybe it would be understandable why they didn't dig into the possibility of Devin's involvement in Libby's death any deeper. Just accepted his version of events. But this was not all they had. The very next day, after Devin tells police that he'd never laid a hand on Libby, someone comes down to the police station to report something they'd witnessed exactly one week earlier. Something they thought might be connected to Libby's death. Something that, if true, would mean Devin lied to mean.

You know, I don't honestly know what happened, but if there was something that was wrong, then it needs to be brought out. Stuart Dominion here wants to tell you the good news about sky full fiber broadband. It's 99.9% reliable guantole Parimene, and it's now in even more homes across Dublin. So if you live in Swords, Lucan, Blanchardstown, Dundrum, Tala, sorry, Foster oh, and Castle Knock, just to name a few, then sky full fiber broadband is in your area. Search sky broadband today availability subject to.

Location sky ie speed hello, I'm Chelsea Peretti. Do you feel chronic existential dread but love talking about delicious snacks? Call me. My podcast is relaunching subscribe and treat yourself to sound effects like this and this. Have you ever been attacked by a bear?

Yeah. Yes.

And moments like this.

I happen to fall asleep in front of a space heater. No. And my whole leg, from my knee down to my foot burnt until it swollen. A big bubble.

And this kale chips are delicious.

They're too oily when I give them.

They shouldn't be soft at all. They should be really crispy.

That's what I said every single time.

You are yelling at me. And this.

Do you want to go to the clippers game with me tonight.

Do you have 25 references of mutual friends that can tell me that you're not a murderer? And this? Hold on. I got to open some peanut butter pretzels. Listen to call Chelsea Peretti on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players network on the iHeartRadio App Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

My name is Payne Lindsay, and just like pretty much everyone else on the internet, I make podcasts. Throughout my career, I've had the chance to travel all over the place investigating true crimes, researching the unexplained. I've been able to meet some of the most truly interesting people, and I've decided to sit down with them and pick their brains. We're going to talk about life, death, unsolved crimes. If Bob wrote the cadaver note in his own words, he had murdered Susan Berman. Why do you think we're so obsessed with dark people like that?

It's maybe part of human nature, the supernatural.

There's something here, truly something going on. Our biggest fears mental health, pop culture, just adrenaline.

Being on a film set is incredible.

And honestly, just whatever the hell is on our minds. Wait a minute. You should be very happy. This is talking to death. New episodes of Talking to Death are available now. Listen on the iHeartRadio App Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Daniel Tosh, host of new podcasts called Tosh Show, brought to you by Iheart podcast. Why am I getting to the podcast game now? Well seemed like the best way to let my family know what I'm up to. Instead of visiting or being part of their incessant group text. I'll be interviewing people that I find interesting. So not celebrities and certainly not comedians. I'll be interviewing my plumber, my stylist, my wife's gynecologist. We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling. But mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire or one that will really make you think this isn't the one for you, but it will be entertaining to a very select few because you don't make it to your mid 40s with IBS without having a story or two to tell. Join me as I take my place among podcast royalty like Joel Olstein and Lance Bass.

Those are words I'd hope I'd never have to say. Listen to toss show on the iHeartRadio App Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Get ready. Will Lucas from Black Tech Green Money, the podcast for black techies with a passion for capital, is hosting a special event happening at State Farm Park in Iheartland. Will's going to chat about the top ten things you should be doing to build your wealth. Don't miss this epic event starting Thursday, November 16, at 07:00 p.m.. Eastern at State Farm Park in Iheartland on Roblox, available all weekend long. Be sure to check out State Farm's new Temple of Sound maze minigame. Visit iHeartRadio.com slash. Iheartland to start playing today.

Hello?

Hello?

Hey, is that Gary?

Yes, it is.

This is Gary Stevens. He used to live with Devin's mother, Mindy, and they have a child together. Devin's half brother.

Devin kind of looked up to me as a father figure, kind of. Him and his father didn't get along very well, and he kind of looked up to me. That's what makes this so hard.

In the fall of 2017, Devin asked Gary if he and Libby could live at Gary's house for a bit while they saved money for a new apartment.

He was working at Sonic, and I said, yeah, come on, it's fine.

A month passed with no problems. Libby and Devin went to work. Gary saw them in passing. But then one day, while Gary was at home, he heard sounds like they were fighting. And these sounds were disturbing enough that he decided he had to intervene.

I heard things being knocked off on the floor. Normally I wouldn't open up door. I'd knock, say, hey, but I felt something wasn't right. So when I opened up the door, I seen Devin was on top of Lippy and he was choking her. She was angled caddy corner on the bed and he was sitting on top of her. And I mean, it surprised him. When I opened up the door, he kind of left it and turned around. She raised up and I kind of lost it. I said, look, you guys ain't going to disrespect me or my house. You're not going to do this here, you're not going to tear up my house. You got to go. And I feel bad because maybe I shouldn't have maybe I shouldn't have made him know. There could be a thousand. Maybe I shouldn't, but that isn't what happened.

This might seem like another in the long list of troubling allegations against Devin, but strangling, or choking, as Gary called it, is a very bad sign in the history of an abusive relationship. For context, it's estimated that each year, US. Women suffer at least 5 million acts of domestic violence. That's almost 14,000 every single day. The vast majority of these incidents are not lethal, but each day, around three of these women will die at the hands of their partners. So figuring out which victims are at the highest risk of homicide is a priority for anyone trying to stop this from happening. Because if you can predict which women are most likely to be killed by their partners, you can intervene before it's too late. Or that's the hope. And what researchers have found is that strangulation is a powerful predictor for future deadly violence. Women who are strangled by their partners are over seven times more likely to later be killed by them. It's such an important red flag in domestic violence cases that in hundreds of jurisdictions across the US, police are trained to ask domestic violence victims if they have ever been strangled so that they can identify those who are at the most risk.

So was she on her back and he was, like, straddling her?

Yes. Okay.

And he had his hands around her throat?

Yes.

Okay.

Was she making any noise? Was he cutting off the air to.

Know? I didn't hear any noises, but I'm sure that's what was happening.

Only a week later, Gary heard the news that Libby died with a belt around her neck.

I seen on Facebook Libby had died.

What was your initial reaction?

I was shocked. I was very shocked. And then my first thought was, wow, you know what I just witnessed?

Gary drove down to the station and asked to speak to someone about Libby's case.

When I went in, there was a lady. You talked through the glass with a speaker, and she said, just a moment. And she told them that they had someone with maybe information about what had happened.

Instead of bringing him into an interview room where statements can be recorded, an officer took his statement in the lobby. So we don't have an audio recording of it, just notes from IPD. And Gary's recollection.

And when a detective come out and talked to me, I just told them exactly like I explained to you what I witnessed.

Did they seem interested in the information? Like, how did they react?

Not really. They didn't really seem to have too much enthusiasm about it. They didn't say a lot, and I think maybe it was still under investigation at that time, so I don't know what they would have said.

Did you ever hear from them again?

No, I didn't. No follow up? No. Nothing.

To this day, Gary is conflicted and confused about the meaning of what he.

Honestly, I would have a hard time believing that he would do this. Although what I witnessed what when I think to myself and I've thought this over a thousand times, do I think Devin did it? In my heart and in my mind, I want to say no, but it goes right back to what I seen. So I don't know. I honestly do not know. Everyone deserves to know the truth. And if there was something that was not right, then someone should be held accountable. I mean, I like Devin. I love him as far as a person. I don't want to see any harm to him. But if he was capable of doing this, he needs to be held responsible.

On the next episode of what happened to Libby Caswell, we learn about another secret Libby was keeping.

I mean, I knew she was doing something, but she just wouldn't admit it to me at first.

A secret that intensified an already volatile relationship.

He was doing drugs, and he was one of those people that stay up for, like, a week, and when you do that, you get crazy. You know.

Throw in I think I did from the rain and the ten mine. Keep your ear to the ground.

What happened to Libby Caswell is written, reported and hosted by me, Melissa Jelson with writing and story editing by Marissa Brown and Lauren Hansen. Episodes are edited by Jeremy Thal and Carl Cadel. Our executive producer is Ryan Murdoch for Iheart Podcasts. Executive producers are Jason English and Katrina Norvell with our supervising producer, Carl Cadel. Fact checking by Maya Shukri. Our theme song is written by Aaron Kaufman and performed by Aaron Kaufman and Elizabeth Wolf. Original music by Aaron Kaufman with additional music by Jeremy Thal. Our episodes are mixed and mastered by Carl Cadle. To find out more about my investigation or to send a tip, please email me at what Happened to Libby@gmail.com? Thanks so much for listening.

Don't you know follow you until I until I fell apart what a way to find myself in pieces in pieces in the dark close.

Dream big, it's Christmas at Sports Direct. Unleash the champion in everyone this Christmas it's time to let the magic flow dream big, it's Christmas after all shop Sports Direct in store or online.

Hello, I'm Chelsea Peretti. Do you feel chronic existential dread but love talking about delicious snacks? Call me. My podcast is relaunching. Do you fear wild, dangerous animals to the point where you're constantly watching attack videos and reading articles about wild animal attack survivors or those who succumb to attack? Call in. We can also discuss reality shows and emergency room footage. Listen to call Chelsea Peretti on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players network on the iHeartRadio App Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

My name is Payne Lindsay. Throughout my career, I've had the chance to travel all over the place, investigating true crimes, researching the unexplained. And I've been able to meet some of the most truly interesting people, and I've decided to sit down with them and pick their brains. We're going to talk about life, death, unsolved crimes, the supernatural. There's something here, truly something going on. And honestly, just whatever the hell is on our minds. Wait a minute. You should be very happy. This is talking to death. New episodes of Talking to Death are available now. Listen on the iHeartRadio App Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Daniel Tosh, host of new podcasts called Tosh Show. I'll be interviewing people that I find interesting, so not celebrities and certainly not comedians. We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling. But mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire or one that will really make you think this isn't the one for you, listen to toss Show on the iHeartRadio App Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Get ready.

Will Lucas from Black Tech Green Money, the podcast for Black techies with a passion for capital, is hosting a special event event happening at State Farm Park in Iheartland. Will's going to chat about the top ten things you should be doing to build your wealth. Don't miss this epic event starting Thursday, November 16 at 07:00 p.m.. Eastern at State Farm Park in Iheartland on Roblox, available all weekend long. Be sure to check out State Farm's new Temple of Sound Maze minigame visit iHeartRadio.com iheartland to start playing today.