Hi, I'm Daniel Tosh, host of a new podcast called Tosh Show. I'll be interviewing people that I find interesting, so not celebrities and certainly not comedians. We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling, but mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire or one that will really make you think, this isn't the one for you. Listen to Tosh Show on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy is the greatest murder mystery in American history. That's Rob Reiner.

Rob.

Called me.

Soledad O'Brien, and asked me.

What I knew about this crime. Well, ask who had the motive to assassinate a sitting president. Then we'll pull the curtain back on the cover up. The American people need to know the truth. Listen to Who Killed JFK? On the iHeart Radio app.

Apple podcasts, or wherever get your podcasts.

My name is Paine Lindsay. Throughout my career.

I've had.

The chance to travel all over the.

Place.

Investigating true crimes, researching the unexplained, and I've.

Been able to meet some of the most.

Truly interesting people, and I've decided to sit down with them and pick their brains. We're going to talk about life, death, unsolved crimes, the supernatural.

There's something here. Truly something going on.

Honestly, just whatever the hell is on our minds. Wait a minute. You should be very happy. You want? This is Talking to Death. New episodes of Talking to Death are available now. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Carlos Miller. Here at The 85 South Side, comedy is king, but we're also here to support and elevate black-owned businesses that are doing amazing things. On our show, The Black Market, I sit down with entrepreneurs who are changing the game in every field like Sublimed Donuts, Good Day Sense, Cafe Bourbon Street, and many more. Tune into The Black Market, available in the 85 South Show feed. Listen on iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Gisele and Robin, and we're the host of Reasonably Shady on the Black Effect Podcast Network. This is the podcast that you want to listen to to feel like you're in the living room with your girlfriend, you're driving in the car with your girlfriend, you're having that good girlfriend talk. We do hot topics. We talk about reasonable and shady things, so get into it.

Join us every Monday for Reasonably Shady and tune into the latest season of The Real Housewives of Potomac. Subscribe to Reasonably Shady on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Iheart original. This is an.

Iheart original. This story might be hard to hear. There's detailed talk of suicide and violence, but we think it's important not to gloss over the reality of what happened to Libby Caswell. Hill. Please take care while listening.

December fourth, that was our last.

Visit together. Colleen Huff was Libby's parent aid, a professional assigned by the state to monitor her visits with her son, Zave, and help her work towards regaining custody. Each week they'd meet at Cindy's house. Colleen tells me that Libby would often arrive at these visits excited and happy as it was the only time she would get to see Zave. But on this date, December fourth, a week before her death, Libby is in a state of panic.

She was.

Really upset and she was shaking and she.

Just she.

Looked at her appearance. I mean, she was just a mess.

And I knew something was very, very different.

Colleen's instincts are right. After some coaxing, Libby tells her that just a few hours earlier, Devon attacked her on the bed, strangling her. They had been staying with one of Devon's family friends, Gary Stevens, who happened to witness the incident.

When I opened up the door, I seen Devon was on top of Libby, and he was choking her.

Back at her mom's house, Libby tries to calm down. She was.

Shaking, so I knew she was afraid.

For years, Libby had kept Devon's abuse mostly hidden, only sharing bits and pieces with certain friends. But today is different. Telling Colleen about the strangulation is the only time I know of where she actually reported an act of violence to someone in a position of authority. And Colleen immediately jumps into action. I called all the shelters in Kansas City to try to find her a safe place to go. While Colleen is making phone calls, Libby tries to push aside her distress and connect with Zave. She cooks him pancares and changes his outfit. And eventually, Colleen lines up a bed for Libby at a domestic violence shelter run by the Hope House. I found a.

Shelter with availability.

I.

Cleared the rest of my.

Schedule.

After the supervised visit.

After she got to spend time with her son, she was.

Going to go with me.

I felt like she needed to be in a safe place.

There's a far light through your window. So why did she with my eyes?

From iHeart podcast, I'm Melissa Jelsen, and this is what happened to Libby, Caswell. What a way.

To cross the lines.

I can't tell.

You a single time.

At night that she'd ever have her blinds open because she always was looking over.

Her shoulder, always. This is not a homicide. This is a suicide. What she wanted to do was clean up and get away from him. She started up and.

Through all the hoops. She was like, I.

Don't know what I need to do now. From there, that was the last time I'd seen him. I couldn't even tell you which direction he went. Somebody dropped the ball. I've had to pick up the toe. I've had to pick up the toe. I've had to pick up the toe. I've had to pick up the toe. I've had to pick up the eyes. What I've seen tonight. Watch in the water, your eyes, all I've seen tonight.

Chapter 5, The Fight of Your Life. December fourth, 2017 was supposed to be a happy day for the Caswell family. Libby's sister Natalie had just given birth to her first child, and this was the day she was coming home from the hospital. We pulled up.

To the.

House.

And my dad helped me.

Carry all my.

Bags and.

Stuff in the door. But the welcome Natalie gets from her family is not at all what she imagined. Libby is at Cindy's house and she's deeply distraught.

As soon as I walked in the.

Door, she was standing in the living room with my mom and Colleen, and she was just crying, really upset.

About something.

At the time, I didn't know why she was crying. Then I started hearing what they were talking about. They were talking about he did.

Something to her.

And that's why she was so upset.

I was like.

What's going on? They started telling me about how she.

Was late to her visit.

Because.

They were at Devon's stepdad's house.

And he heard.

Them arguing.

And walked into the bedroom where they were staying.

And Devon was on top of Libby, choking her.

Despite the circumstances, Libby tries her best to celebrate her sister. We were in the kitchen, and she was asking me questions about the baby and my birth and all that. But Libby can't hide her fear over what had just happened to her and what might happen next. Her voice was shaky and I was like, Why don't you just come home? We could tell him you're not here. She just kept saying like, No, I can't do that. I said, Well, why? Give me a reason why can't you do that? I don't understand. She said, Well, because you don't understand what would.

Happen if I stay.

Here, he.

Would know.

I'm here, and it's not safe for you, and it's not safe for Zahid. You don't know what.

He.

Would do, and I have to stay with him to keep him away. But there is another option, the domestic violence shelter. Colleen had found Libby a placement at a nearby shelter run by the Hope House. It felt like a good compromise, an escape from Devon that kept her and her family safe. Libby agrees to go after her visit with Zave, but there's a catch. Colleen would have to escort Libby to the police station first, then the police would take Libby to the shelter. This is the standard protocol for the intake process at Hope House. The CEO of Hope House told me that the police are involved in order to protect staff and new clients during what is often a tense and highly-charged moment. But in Libby's experience, involving the police meant risking a fine or arrest. It meant being called uncooperative, a nuisance. At the end of the visit, she changed her mind and decided not to go. Libby didn't say why. Nobody knows if it was her distrust of police, if she was worried about Devon's reaction or something else. And it's possible that if Libby had spoken up about her hesitations, there could have been a different solution.

I tried to talk her into it.

But that was... Well, if I had.

To do it all over again, I would have thrown her over my shoulders.

And put her in my car and made her follow through with.

That, but she didn't. And that's the.

Last time I ever saw her.

Libby leaves her mom's house alone at the end of her visit. She walks out of the front door and drives off in her black Ford Fusion. I just assumed.

That I would see.

Her again on Monday, so I went about my life with my newborn. I think about that a lot, how I don't have any pictures of them together. They only met one.

Time and didn't really.

Think.

Much of it.

Because I thought she'd be back. But Libby never made it to that next scheduled visit with Zave. The following Monday, that was the day her body was discovered. The next seven days marked the last of Libby's life. It's hard to know exactly where she was or what she was doing because she didn't see her family again. Her phone, which would have offered insight into her whereabouts and communications, was never retrieved by police. But I've been able to gather bits and pieces of what happened during those days from talking to others. At some point, Libby reconnects with Devon. My guess is that it was pretty soon after she left Cindy's house. And it seems to me, based on how her family described her behavior, that she had recently relapsed. The couple would have had nowhere to stay. Gary had kicked them out. Cindy refused to have Devon in her home. I heard from some friends that they may have stayed in an abandoned house and also rented a room at another motel in town. On Thursday, four days before her death, Libby's car is stolen, allegedly by an acquaintance. She manages to get it back fairly quickly, but it's in rough shape.

Then one day that week, I couldn't confirm exactly which, Devon has an encounter with a man at his father's house who accuses Devon of stealing his drugs. The man's furious and reportedly ripping at Devon's shirt, pushing him around. Then on Sunday, the day before Libby's death, Devon and Libby meet up for a few hours with Nathan, Libby's childhood friend. They all drive around town in Libby's car, listening to music and smoking pot. Nothing about this seems out of the ordinary to Nathan.

This is one of those days that I would have never thought that they were arguing or anything. I mean, it seemed perfect. She was all about him and he was all about her.

Until they stop for gas and Devon goes into pay. And the second Libby is alone with her friend, her cheerful demeanor drops.

Libby looked at me and said, Nathan, I don't think I feel safe with Devon anymore. I don't know. Something just seems off right now.

In the brief moment they have together, Nathan offers to have Libby stay with him, but she declines. Devon gets back in the car and they're off again, and Libby switches to how she'd been acting before. Happy, carefree. Hearing Nathan's story, I'm struck by how raw this moment of vulnerability is, especially for someone like Libby, so practiced at hiding what she's going through. It seems to me like it's a cry for help.

It was literally the night before she died, and she waited until he went inside the quick trip to pay for gas. I wish I could go back in time and go stay with her at that hotel.

Eventually, Libby and Devon drop Nathan back off at home and continue on their journey. Around this time, on Sunday evening, Cindy is worried about Libby and repeatedly sending her messages. She wants to know if Libby is going to make it to her scheduled appointment with Xavier and Colleen, her parent aid, the following morning. She messages her, Are you going to be here? Colleen is expecting you at 9:30 a. M. Libby replies, I know, Mom, I need to be straight when I come see him. Those are the last words Cindy would receive from her daughter. At some point in the wee hours of Monday morning, Libby and Devon arrive at the sports stadium in, along with their friend nick. Like. They hang out in the parking lot for a bit. There they meet another guest, David Fristow. He was the one who encouraged Devon to call 911 after Libby's death. In his conversation with police, Fristow told them he hadn't interacted much with the couple when they first arrived, except some friendly hellos. When I tracked Frisco down five years later, though, he had more to say.

Hello? Hello?

Hey, it's Martha.

Okay, I'm Gary Gloss out on the porch.

I asked Frisco to walk me through what he remembered from his encounter with Devon, Libby, and nick. He'd been asleep in his room and woken up by the sound of people talking.

The only reason I went out there and talked to them because they were exactly right in front of my door, my window, and they were talking so loud and making so much racket that I just got up and went out.

There because.

I'm thinking that they were out there arguing with them, but they wouldn't. They were out there just having fun talking.

You weren't annoyed that they were waking you up when you.

Had to go there? No, I don't know. Because it happens all the time when you stay at a motel like that because there's always something going on.

Frisco told me that they all hung out for a bit in the parking lot.

I'm a person that has talked to anybody. I'll talk to a brick wall. So I just went out there and was talking.

And telling them.

We're just talking about anything, anything and everything. We were talking like what most men talk about, sports and stuff like that. We were talking about football, baseball.

With Devon and the other guy, nick, doing most of the talking, or was Flippy as actively in the conversation.

Not as much. She didn't really voice her opinion about anything, really.

Still, Frisco's impression of the couple was that they seemed fine, good even.

I thought they were actually married. They both seemed really happy. I know that much. They weren't arguing. You can sense if somebody's arguing and fighting, but it didn't feel that way to me.

I can't help but think about how Libby also seemed fine to Nathan, one of her close friends, until they got a moment alone and her whole facade crumbled.

It's hard to say because people can put on a good act. You know what I mean? I don't know. It's hard to judge people. I know.

Libby made at least one more attempt to reach out for help.

I may have been one of the last ones to speak to her on the phone anyway.

At some point, when Devon was out of earshot, she picked up her phone and called her.

Friend, Brian. Basically, that phone call was her telling me that she was at a hotel. Devon had taken her there. She hadn't met him there or something. I'm not really sure. But she didn't feel safe and wanted me to come pick her up. And it was a very brief call. It probably didn't last more than two or three minutes. But best of my recollection, she said, He's here. I have to go. I'll call you back. I'll call you right back as soon as I can. I was like, Promise me you're going to call me back. She said, I promise and clicked. That was it. That was the last I spoke to her. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy is the greatest murder mystery in American history.

That's Rob Reiner. Rob called me, Soledad O'Brien, and asked me.

What I knew about this crime.

I know 60 years later, new leads are still emerging. To me, an.

Award-winning.

Journalist, that's the making of an incredible story.

On this.

Podcast.

You're going to hear it told by one of America's greatest storytellers. We'll ask who had the motive to assassinate a sitting president. My dad thought JFK screwed us at the Bay of.

Pigs, and then he screwed us.

After the Cuban missile crisis. We'll reveal why Lee Harvey Oswalt isn't who they said he was. I was under the impression that Lee was being trained for a specific operation. Then we'll pull the curtain back on the cover up. The American people need to know the truth.

Listen to Who.

Killed JFK on the iHeart Radio app.

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Daniel Tosh, host of a new podcast called Tosh Show, brought to you by iHeart Podcasts. Why am I getting into the podcast game now? Well, it seemed like the best way to let my family know what I'm up to instead of visiting or being part of their incessant group text. I'll be interviewing people that I find interesting, so not celebrities and certainly not comedians. I'll be interviewing my plumber, my stylist, my wife's gynecologist. We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling, but mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire or one that will really make you think, this isn't the one for you. But it will be entertaining to a very select few because you don't make it to your mid 40s with IBS without having a story or two to tell. Join me as I take my place among podcast royalty like Joel Olstein and Lance Bass. Those are words I hope I'd never have to say. Listen to Tosshowe on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is.

Payne Lindsay.

And just like pretty much everyone else on the internet, I make podcasts. Throughout my career, I've had the chance to travel all over the place investigating true crimes, researching the unexplained.

I've been able to.

Meet some of the most truly interesting people, and I've decided to sit down with them and pick their brains. We're going to talk about life, death, unsolved crimes. If Bob wrote the cadaver note in his own words, he had murdered Susan Sperman. Why do you think we're so obsessed with dark people like that?

It's maybe part of human nature. The supernatural. There's something here. Truly something.

Going.

On. Our biggest fears, mental.

Health.

Pop culture. Just adrenaline. Being on a film set is incredible.

Honestly, just whatever the hell is on our minds. Wait a minute. You should be very happy. This is Talking to Death. New episodes of Talking to Death are available now.

Listen on the.

Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Grace.

Campbell, and on my new podcast, 28 dates later, I'm changing the.

Narrative on how.

We find love. Join me on a wild adventure as I go on blind dates. Finding suiters on the.

Internet's strangest apps and.

Only picking people who are the total opposite of my type. Dissecting my dates and listening in on all the cringeyst moments will be my friend, Ross. Every time I hear.

About a date, I go in.

And I'm like, Thank God.

And my.

Friend Dan. Okay, the deadest.

Flirting I've ever had in my life. Who won't.

Be giving.

Me an easy ride. Honestly, if you had said that to me on a date, I would.

Have walked out.

And.

After going on 28 of these dates in two months, will I find.

That.

Special someone? Or will this experiment prove that there's no good way to find love? And I should just give up on dating altogether? It's time to find out.

Listen to 28 dates later with.

Me, Grace.

Campbell, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast.

Or wherever you get your podcasts. From Wall Street to Main Street and from Hollywood to Washington, the news is.

Filled with.

Decisions, turning points, deals, and collisions. I'm Tim O'Brien, the Senior Executive Editor for.

Bloomberg Opinion.

I'm your host for Cashcourse, a weekly podcast from Bloomberg and iHeart Radio. Every week on Cashcourse, I'll bring listeners directly into the arenas where epic upheavals occur. I'm going to explore.

The.

Lessons we can learn when creativity.

And.

Ambition collide with competition and power. Each Tuesday, I'll talk to Bloomberg reporters around the world, as.

Well as experts.

In big names in the news. Together, we'll explore business, political, and social.

Disruptions.

And what we can learn from them. I'm Tim O'Brien, host of Cashcourse, a new weekly podcast from Bloomberg and iHeart Radio. Listen to Cashcourse every Tuesday on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In the.

Summer of 2022, I found myself standing in the parking lot of the sports stadium in probably pretty close to the same spot where, nearly five years earlier, Libby and Devon had chatted with David Frisco before they checked in to room 319. The sports stadium and sits directly on Highway 40 in Independence, around the corner from the stadium with the Kansas City Chiefs play. During football season, the motel can attract out-of-town fans who I imagine are sorely disappointed when they pull up outside a yellowing block of dingy rooms that look like they haven't been updated since the '80s. Google reviews mentioned shady characters, dirty linens, and frequent bug sightings. But for the most part, the clientele aren't football fans. Their are locals with few other places to go. I knew from reading police reports that the Independence Police Department was often at the motel responding to 911 calls involving alleged drug sales, robberies, and assaults. As recently as August 2023, a man was killed there. But even so, I wanted to see it for myself to get a better sense of the place and potentially answer some lingering questions about the crime scene. When I told Cindy my plan to go, even in the middle of the day, she advised that I should bring someone with me, someone more physically intimidating, which is how I ended up accompanied by a six-foot, 200-pound private investigator who carries a concealed weapon.

I'm Jim Murray. I'm one of the founders of Star Investigations, LLC out of Jefferson City, Missouri. I've been a private investigator for about close to 40 years now.

Even with Jim Murray by my side, I was having some serious second thoughts. As soon as we pulled into the parking lot, I felt eyes on us. People were peeking through the curtains, opening their doors to look at our shiny rental SUV, the nicest in the lot. Almost immediately, I saw a drug sale take place through a car window. Jim Murray and I didn't linger to take in the scene. We headed into the office and asked to rent room 319. Now, requesting a specific room was a pretty weird ask. All the rooms are essentially identical and equally dismal. And sure enough, the motel clerk told us room 319 was dirty and handed us to another room instead. There was an awkward moment of silence as Mari and I looked at each other. And then without skipping a beat, Mari came up with a wild, concocted story about how we were a couple and that specific room held special memories for us. We wanted to return there for old time's sake. I don't know what the clerk made of this explanation, but eventually, when he saw we weren't going anywhere, he said if we really wanted that room, we could come back in 20 minutes and it would be ready.

We drove around for a bit, then came back and got the keys, still the old fashioned kind with 319 written on a cheap plastic tag. Holding them in my hands, I couldn't help but imagine Libby doing this exact same thing. Jim Murray, my producer, and I grabbed the audio equipment and some notebooks and shuffled inside. And immediately there was a wrapping at the door. What?

Excuse me. What? Okay, we're just going to be a minute. You just drop us off and take some pictures. Give us about.

10 minutes, okay?

Thank you.

The motel clerk told us we were only allowed to have two people in the room. You can hear in my voice that I was nervous about their intrusion. But it wasn't just that. Standing inside room 319 felt creepier than I had expected. Honestly, I wanted to get the hell out of there. And so we moved through the room quickly, taking photos and jotting down details that we thought might be useful later.

See, this door has been repaired or replaced with no intention or anything. And you also want to be.

Jim Murray wanted to take some measurements of the bathroom where Libby died. He had doubts that Libby, at five foot five, would have been able to take Devon's belt, feed it over the top of the door, and then close it. I don't understand. Because if the pressure is on this, this just falls out.

Put the belt there and see if we can close the door.

You said this switch was.

Sticking out. I said I don't think it'll work. I don't know. Well, maybe it will. Maybe I'm wrong. I just thought you'd have to just be a real contortionist to do it.

We had planned to spend some time in the room discussing the case, but I changed my mind and suggested we leave right away. Is there anything else we want to do here, or should we just hit it?

That's all I need. You know what? Now you've seen it inside. You've been there yourself. We took the measurements.

We packed up, piled back into the car, and once we were out of the parking lot, I brought out the recorder. We were just at the hotel or the motel room where Libby died, and it was very, very small. Just enough room for a bed and there were two large mirrors, one facing the bed and one on the side of the bed and a tiny bathroom with a really rickety door on it that almost came off just us opening and closing the door and an absolutely tiny bathroom.

For me, the saddest part is just looking at that space between the toilet and that bathtub. How sad is it to end your life right there in that area?

It did not feel good in that room. It was a really sad place to go and a sad place for her to have those last moments of her life. In the weeks after Libby's body was found, IPD never returned to room 319, as far as I can tell. They didn't go back to measure the tiny bathroom and work through the logistics of Devon's story, nor did they try to track down more guests who'd stayed near room 319 that night. Despite the fact that the impression I gathered was that the motel operated almost like a marketplace where people could wander around and buy drugs and sex. Instead, IPD waited two months for the results of the autopsy to come back. And even though it was ruled undetermined, they closed the case anyway, much to the shock of Libby's mom, Cindy.

In my mind, I'm thinking, shouldn't we trust our police department?

We started calling.

And they were never available and we couldn't get hold of anybody.

As the months went by, Cindy came to the harsh realization that IPD was unlikely to do anything else in Libby's case. She was the only one still searching for answers. I was talking to.

Another.

Mother who had lost a daughter in independence.

And her daughter's death certificate.

Said suicide, but she.

Knew darn.

Well it wasn't by just the.

Photographs and everything her daughter had been through.

The mother was a local woman named Jackie Schroer. In 2017, her daughter, Angela, had also died under suspicious circumstances. She was found shot in the forehead. Less than two months after her death, the Schroer say police told them the case was closed.

Suicide, end of story.

But that was just.

The beginning.

To Cindy, the Schroers' experience already felt equally similar to her own. Almost as shocking as learning about their daughter's death, they say, was learning how the.

Independence Police.

Department dismissed this investigation. Dismissed was exactly how Cindy felt, and she wanted to put pressure on IPD, but didn't really know where to begin. So she asked Jackie.

I called her.

And I was like.

What do.

I need to do? Because I believe I'm in the same.

Situation you are. And so she said, You need to get your ME records. You need to get all your police records.

Have you done that yet? And I said, No, I didn't know I could do that.

I had no.

Idea that you could get.

The reports and that they were public knowledge.

Since Libby's case was officially closed, Cindy was able to request the complete police file. This was one silver lining, at least. But Jackie warned her that the road ahead would not be easy.

She.

Started advising.

Me, get your stuff together because this is going to be the fight of your life.

At this point, Cindy knew very few solid facts about Libby's death. Basically, all she had to go on was what police told her the night she learned her daughter had died. And so she was prepared to immerse herself in the case file to learn everything the police saw and did. But Cindy's resolve was tested almost immediately with the arrival of an IPD disk containing photos of Libby's body. I didn't look at it at.

The.

Dvd of.

The crime scene because I didn't want to... You can't unsee something that you've.

Looked at. But Cindy also knew if she was going to get to the truth of what happened to Libby, she really had no other option.

I waited, I think, about three days. And I prayed and I.

Prepared myself and then plugged it in.

Early.

One morning and watched it.

I knew right.

Then that something.

Was not right.

About.

The.

Scene. I knew the way her body was positioned.

I knew just by reading all the reports and seeing it that she didn't.

Die by herself, inflicted, you know. As painful as its was, the process strengthened Cindy's resolve. But if Cindy was going to change anyone's mind about what happened, she needed more than just a feeling, which is why she reached out to Jim Marie, the private investigator. He immediately called.

The police station the day we hired him in the room before we.

Even left.

He picked up the phone and he called IPD. I got an appointment to talk with someone, and that was more than we'd ever gotten. Hi, I'm Daniel Tosh, host of a new podcast called Tosh Show, brought to you by iHeart Podcast. Why am I getting into the podcast game now? Well, seemed like the best way to let my family know what I'm up to instead of visiting or being part of their incessant group text. I'll be interviewing people that I find interesting, so not celebrities and certainly not comedians. I'll be interviewing my plumber, my stylist, my wife's gynecologist. We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling, but mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire or one that will really make you think, this isn't the one for you. But it will be entertaining to a very select few because you don't make it to your mid 40s with IBS without having a story or two to tell. Join me as I take my place among podcast royalty like Joel Olstein and Lance Bass. Those are words I hope I'd never have to say.

Listen to Tosshowe on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy is the greatest murder mystery in American history.

That's Rob Reiner. Rob called me, Soledad O'Brien, and asked me.

What I knew about this crime.

I know 60 years later, new leads are still emerging. To me, an.

Award-winning.

Journalist, that's the making of an.

Incredible story. On this.

Podcast, you're going.

To hear it told by one of America's greatest storytellers. We'll ask who had the motive to assassinate a sitting President. My dad thought of JFK, screwed us at the Bay of.

Pigs, and.

Then he screwed.

Us.

After the Cuban missile crisis. We'll reveal why Lee Harvey Oswalt isn't who they said he was. I was under the impression that Lee was being trained for a specific operation. Then we'll pull the curtain back on the cover up. The American people need to know the truth.

Listen to Who.

Killed JFK on the iHeart Radio app.

Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

My name is.

Payne Lindsay.

And just like pretty much everyone else on the internet, I make podcasts. Throughout my career, I've had the chance to travel all over the place investigating true crimes, researching the unexplained.

I've been able to meet.

Some of the most truly interesting people, and I've decided to sit down with them and pick their brains. We're going to talk about life, death, unsolved crimes. If Bob wrote the cadaver note in his own words, he had murdered Susan Sperman. Why do you think we're so obsessed with dark people like that?

It's maybe part of human nature. The supernatural. There's something here. Truly something going on.

Our.

Biggest fears.

Mental health.

Pop.

Culture.

Just adrenaline. Being on a film set is incredible.

Honestly, just whatever the hell is on our minds. Wait a minute. You should be very happy. You want? This is Talking to Death. New episodes of Talking to Death are available now.

Listen on the.

Iheart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Osage County, Oklahoma is getting a lot of attention right now. It's the setting of Martin Scorsese's latest film, Killers of the flower Moon. The movie is.

Based on a book about.

The 1920s Osage murders. When white men poured into Osage.

County and killed.

Osage people for.

Their oil wealth.

I'm Rachel Adams-Hard.

The.

Host of Intrust, a podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartMedia. For over a year, I was reporting a different story about other ways white people got Osage.

Land and wealth and.

How a prominent ranching family in.

Osage County.

Became one of the biggest landowners here. Their ranching empire was built on land that at the turn of the century, was all owned by the Osage nation. So how did they get it? Listen to the.

Award-winning podcast, InTrust on the.

Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Professional dancer, Cheryl Burke, has been part of Dancing with the Stars since the very beginning. Twenty-six seasons of the Samba, the Roomba, and the Cha-Cha. Twenty-four partners, six finals, and two mirrorball trophies. She knows all the secrets, the behind-the-scenes arguments, and the affairs, the flings, the flirting, and the fighting. It's time to tell all on her new podcast, Sex, Lies, and Spraytons will take you all the way back to season one and up through today for the dance floor drama like you wouldn't believe. Former partners, co-stars, friends, and frenemies will join Cheryl each week. Listen to Sex, Lies, and Spray Tans on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

If you were to imagine a quintessential private eye, Jim Murray might not be too far off. He's tall, broad-shouldered, with tattoos on his forearms that peek through his rolled-up sleeves. He has a deep, baritone voice that can be imposing if it needs to be. He really was the perfect person to accompany me, as you heard earlier, to the sports stadium in. When Cindy hired Murray in the summer of 2018, he was entering a new phase of life. After nearly four decades of investigative work, his eyesight was failing him, and he was almost ready to stop taking new cases. Almost. Because he still makes time for a particular client.

I have retired at this point, but my passion is helping families find answers when they're not getting answers. I've done, over the years, cases that are ruled to be a suicide and they may be a homicide, suspicious death. So it seems like I end up doing a lot of those.

Mari told me his desire to help families like Libby's stems from personal experience. Some years back, his own daughter died under suspicious circumstances in Texas.

These tattoos on my arms tell a story, the Scales of justice. That reminds me every day that the state of Texas has failed to bring justice to my daughter and to my family. That one right there, when it says, Sheep dogs never rest. Somebody harmed my flock. Those are there for a reason, and they remind me every day, no matter how bad I feel, no matter what happens. I got to get my ass up and I got to go because I owe it to my family. If it weren't for my daughter's case and the Libby, Caswells, and the world, I'd be at my house sitting by the swimming pool, sucking on margarita by now.

Mari knows what it feels like to be a parent desperately searching for answers. And he also knows that a PI like him is often much more likely to get information out of a police department than a grieving family member.

Cindy struck me as somebody that was just getting stonewalled at every turn. That's really where I came in.

In fact, Marry already had a pretty good relationship with IPD at the time Cindy hired him.

I'm very familiar with independents in my business. I know a lot of their detectives, and they are good people. Do they make mistakes? Yeah. Do I always agree with everything they do? No. I can tell you, as a private investigator, we don't always agree with the police. That's why there are private investigators in the world to go back and take a look at things.

Five months after Libby's case was closed, Jim Marry began to dig through the case file that Cindy had acquired.

I met with her, looked at all the photographs, and knew right away something was definitely wrong. You got articles scattered all over the room, you've got night stand drawer open. You've got a man's broken wrist watch out on the bed. The first thing that would probably go through my mind are these signs of a struggle. We have a term called JDLR, which means just don't look right. For me, the broken watch signs of a struggle. The ransacked room, what are they looking for? Could there have been a confrontation? These are all things that would make it suspicious.

Mari was also struck by the odd position of Libby's body. She had been found by police in the small space between the toilet and the bathtub, her feet slightly up against the wall.

I can't see any way the body would naturally fall in that position from hanging. That was a big tell-tale to me. When you open that door just a little bit, that body is going to come down, and it's going to fall pretty much on the left side of the toilet because that's the direction the momentum is going to be carrying. The body is all the way clear on the right side of the toilets to him. Just didn't make sense. I brought this up with the police and they said, Oh, he admitted that he held her after he found her. Holding somebody, crying, whatever. I get that. You don't pick them up and lay them over here. Let me lay you over here by the toilet out of the way.

Murray also felt that there was a lack of evidence proving that Libby had ever hanged from the bathroom door. The mark on the top of the door, which IPD discovered after interviewing Devon, wasn't convincing to him. He didn't think there was enough damage to indicate Libby died in the way Devon described.

I realized she was a small stature person, but those are pretty flimsy doors. If you start to lose oxygen, your body is going to have an instinct to survive even if you want to kill yourself. When you start losing oxygen, you're involuntarily going to move in some way. I would have thought that door would have shown more damage than just those little two marks on the top.

By the time we went to the motel together, the door had been replaced, so there was no way to look into this further. During Murray's investigation, he also requested records from IPD and got something that Cindy hadn't, a copy of Devon's entire interview with IPD the night of Libby's death. Mari was stunned by something that happened before the questioning even began.

If you watch his police interview and listen really carefully. The police officer walks out, and I know he did it by design, left him with his cell phone to see what he did. He called his dad. You can hear the other end of the conversation if you listen closely. And I actually could hear his dad saying, I'm not going to lie for you. That told me that, Okay, why would you need somebody to lie for you?

The audio quality on the tape isn't great, but I've listened to it over and over too, and my team ran it through some software to clean up the background noise. From what I can tell, Murray is right. Here's the critical part of their conversation. Devon says to his stepmom, Tell my dad to come up here and let him know that I was at his house instead.

Hey, tell my dad to come up here and let him know that I was at his house.

His stepmom asked him to clarify. Is Devon telling them to say he was at their house after he left the scene?

That I was at your house when I left there? When you left the scene? Yeah.

Devon says yes. And then his dad, who's now on the line, says, quote, I can't lie for you.

I mean, there's a lot of it. I don't know what to do. I can't lie for you because I don't know the truth. I don't need that to happen.

According to Libby's case file, the police never interviewed Devon's dad or step-mom. Never asked them if Devon had come over after Libby died like he told IPD he did. I haven't been able to speak to Devon's father myself despite numerous attempts, but I was able to interview his stepmom, Jamie.

I don't recall that.

Phone call. I don't have a lot of recollection of that night because honestly, I.

Made.

Some bad choices and I had some mind altering substances in my body in which.

I'm clean today, but.

I'm clean now that I wasn't then. Devon's the only one who could tell us what he meant when he was talking to his parents that night, but he's declined to speak with me. To my ears, it sounds like he's asking them to cover for him, to say he was somewhere he wasn't. This moment feels like yet another missed opportunity for IPD, especially if Murray is right that the police were baiting Devon by leaving him alone with his phone. Why didn't they ask him what he was talking about? And why didn't they interview Devon's dad to corroborate Devon's story? There's another moment in Devon's phone call to his parents that as ripe for further investigation. At one point, Devon's dad tells his son that he's concerned about how nick is acting.

nick, you got nick worried, you man. Nick is worrying me, man. I'm afraid he's in trouble. One wrong word, you're in.

Trouble, man. It's hard to make out, but he says, nick is worrying me, man. One wrong word and you're in trouble. Jim Murray was suspicious of Nick's story already, that he happened to leave the motel just before Devon says he fell asleep for over eight hours and then came right back after Devon called him that night with news of Libby's death. There was also this tidbit contained within the initial police report. The motel clerk said that a person named nick was repeatedly calling while IPD was on the scene asking if the cops had left yet. Mari wondered if perhaps nick knew a lot more than he was letting on. So we tracked him down in a nearby county jail where he was being held for an unrelated crime. This audio is pretty rough too, but I'll summarize as we go.

How are you, nick? All right. Good. My name is Jim Murray. I'm an investigator for Star investigations. I want to chat with you regarding the death of Libby, Caswell. All right. Now, tell me what you remember of that day, that evening, things like that. We actually arrived at 6:30 that morning. We tried to check in earlier.

nick tells Murray a similar story to what he told IPD. They checked into the sports stadium in, Libby was acting suicidal, and then nick left. He found out about her death when Devon called him in a panic that night.

I was actually not too far away from the hotel at my buddy's house, and so we would have headed right up to the hotel.

nick mentioned something to Jim Murray that he didn't tell IPD that he was dropped back off at the motel by his brother, which is interesting because his brother has actually come up a few times in my investigation. He's the one that Libby said stole her car earlier that week. He's also the person whose name and photo were printed out on a piece of paper found in room 319 the night Libby's body was discovered, which leads me to wonder, is it possible Nick's brother was in the motel room too at some point? For that matter, did anyone else come and go from the motel room? And did Devon stay in the room the whole time, as he claims? All of these questions would be easy enough to answer by simply reviewing the motel's security footage, but we don't have it because IPD never got it.

Somebody dropped the ball. If they would have just going back and got the video, one or two things would have happened. Either the car would have stayed there all day and not moved, which would have made his story if I was asleep all day a little more palatable. Maybe he just crashed. But I would just about bet my best dog, and I like her a lot, that at the end of the day, you would have seen that car come and go on video.

Murray believes nick is in some way covering for Devon. And at one point during their conversation, he gives him some friendly advice.

If there's anything you're not telling me or anything like that, don't let your loyalty come back and bite you in the ass.

nick insists that he's telling Murray everything he knows and that he's genuinely heartbroken about Libby's death.

I'm going to ask you a real serious question, and I want a straight-up answer between you and me. Do you think Devon killed her? I'm not sure. What makes you so sure he didn't? I mean, the passion of love they have is just, I don't know. I don't see her doing it. It was pretty almost 100 % positive he didn't do it. Almost 100 %.

Jim Murray, though, at the end of his yearlong investigation, is left with the opposite impression.

In Libby Caswell's case? Oh, absolutely. I'm 100 % convinced that she was murdered. On the.

Next episode of what happened to Libby Caswell, Cindy continues her fight for the truth and tracks down a medical expert to weigh in on Libby's manner of death. When I reviewed the.

Documents, it was clear that the physical evidence, principally the marks on Libby's neck, were not consistent with a suicidal hanging. They were consistent with a homicide.

The Independence Police Department responds to criticisms of its investigations.

I don't have that arrogant, condescending nature about me, so I don't put myself on a pedestal above anybody. If you can come up with something or an idea, something we haven't thought of, by all means, let me have it.

What happened to Libby, Caswell is written, reported and hosted by me, Melissa Jelsen, with writing and story editing by Marisa Brown and Lauren Hanson. Episodes are edited by Jeremy Thall and Carl Kudel. Our executive producer is Ryan Murdoch. For iHeart Podcasts, executive producers are Jason English and Katrina Norvel. With our supervising producer, Carl Kudel. Archival material, courtesy of KC TV 5 News. Our theme song is written by Aaron Kaufman and performed by Aaron Kaufman and Elizabeth Wolf. Original music by Aaron Kaufman. With additional music by Jeremy Thall. Our episodes are mixed and mastered by Carl Cato. To find out more about my investigation or to send a tip, please email me at whathappentolibby@gmail. Com. Thanks so much for listening.

Hi, I'm Daniel Tosh, host of a new podcast called Tosh Show. I'll be interviewing people that I find interesting, so not celebrities and certainly not comedians. We'll be covering topics like religion, travel, sports, gambling, but mostly it will be about being a working mother. If you're looking for a podcast that will educate and inspire or one that will really make you think, this isn't the one for you. Listen to Tosh Show on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy is the greatest murder mystery in American history. That's Rob Reiner.

Rob.

Called me.

Soledad O'Brien, and asked me.

What I knew about this crime. We'll ask who had the motive to assassinate a sitting president. Then we'll pull the curtain back on the cover up. The American people need to know the truth. Listen to Who Killed JFK on the iHeart Radio app.

Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

My name is Paine Lindsay. Throughout my career.

I've had the chance.

To travel all over.

The place.

Investigating true crimes, researching the unexplained, and I've.

Been able to meet.

Some of the most truly interesting people. I've decided to sit down with them and pick their brains. We're going to talk about life, death, unsolved crimes, the supernatural. There's something here.

Truly something going on.

Honestly, just whatever the hell is on our minds. Wait a minute. You should be very happy. You want toThis is Talking to Death. New episodes of Talking to Death are available now. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Carlos Miller. Here at the 85 South Show, Comedy is king. But we're also here to support and elevate black-owned businesses that are doing amazing things. On our show, The Black Market, I sit down with entrepreneurs who are changing the game in every field like Sublimed Donuts, Good Day Sense, Cafe Bourbon Street, and many more. So tune into The Black Market, available in the 85 South Show feed. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

Och County, Oklahoma is getting a lot of attention right now.

Because of Martin Scorsese's latest movie.

Killers of the.

Flower moon.

About the 1920s, Osage murders.

I'm Rachel.

Adams-hard.

The host.

Of Intrust. For over a year, I reported a different story about other ways white.

People got Osage land and wealth and.

How a.

Prominent ranching.

Family became one of the biggest landowners here.

Listen.

To the award-winning podcast, Intrust, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Osage County, Oklahoma is.

Getting a lot of attention right now because of Martin Scorsese's latest movie, Killers of the flower Moon, about the 1920s Osage murders. I'm Rachel Adams-Heard, the host of Intrust. For over a year, I reported a different story about other ways white people got Osage land and wealth and how anit-ranching family became one of the biggest landowners here. Listen to the award-winning podcast, InTrust.

On the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever.

You get your podcast.