Happy Thanksgiving, folks. Hey, give yourself some thanks or load up on holiday gifts for others with the new WTF merch.

Yeah, WTF merch framed poster stickers, winter clothing and the new to close t shirt in two different colors. Nice colors. Get in it.

Pod swag, dotcom slash, whatever. Click on the link over there at the WTF pod dotcom. All right. Happy Thanksgiving. All right.

Seriously. Gratitude, gratitude fuckers. Huh, civic responsibility, gratitude, love your neighbor, if you can, if it's possible, even try to love your family members, you know, the bad ones. All right, let's do the show. Lock the gate.

All right, let's do this, how are you? What the fuckers, what the fuck buddies, what the fuck sticks? What the fuck tachyons? Happy Thanksgiving. I hope you did what was right for you and for others in your fucking life. I hope you did that. It strikes me that not a lot of people I don't think it's that they don't give a shit.

There's just a certain a certain air of entitlement and rolling of the dice.

Huh? Maybe I won't get it. I probably won't get it. If I do get it won't be the bad one. I won't get the bad one. Tell people start thinking about AIDS after Magic Johnson just kept living. That's how I maybe I maybe it's not so bad. Maybe I don't have to. Maybe I don't have to wrap this fucker. It's all bad. It spreads, it's bad, but look, look. If you're with family.

I think you should know this folk that. This is actually our 12th Thanksgiving show. Our 12th and generally, as many of you know, who've been listening to for years. I usually have a little almost like a guided meditation for Thanksgiving for listeners. I guide them out of their homes, out into the streets to try and take a walk. I've got to put something together for this one. This one's different.

I would like to mention that Mike Campbell is on the show today, and he's the guitarist was the guitarist for Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. He's a member of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Rolling Stone named him one of the greatest guitarists of all times. And he's just put out a record with his band, The Dirty Knobs, called Reckless Abandon. Now, look, we've been sitting on this talk for a while. He pushed up the release of this song because of covid and other things, whatever it was.

But we recorded this in February, February. When the album was supposed to come out February. Before the plague, February, before the lovely Lynn Shelton. Get this sphere. February before my girlfriend died. Different fuckin world, man. And I don't know if you can hear my voice. If you can hear that love was still alive. Actively in my voice that. Fear of. Getting a disease, it could kill you. Not in my voice, not in my heart, not in my mind.

Just a standard, horrendous anger and terror of Trump now that's passing, but this was a different time and it was just back in February and I remember.

I wasn't I was trying to figure out, you know, how to approach Mike. You know what to say to him, and then I realized how much. You know, I missed Tom Petty at that time and still do. How much we all. If you think about it, how can you not miss Tom Petty and I just remember that. This is actually like before Lynn passed away. Before condolences. Getting and giving them was a regular part of my life, I thought that the proper thing to do.

To open this conversation with Mike was to. Offer my condolences for the the loss of his friend Tom, which I did, and. It was a heavy moment, but it's a moment I'm very familiar with now from the other side. But I do think it was the right way to open. Anyway, I'll share that with you in a few minutes. Yeah, I got to be fucking honest with you, there's almost always a rise in break ins during the holidays, people.

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Plus a free security camera today by visiting simply safe dotcom slash wtf go today that simply safe dotcom. So wtf. Come on. I know it's Thanksgiving. I don't even know what's going on today. Is the dog show on. The parade can't be happening. I don't know what your situation is, so I'm going to kind of give you a two pronged Pepe. A two pronged pester, a two pronged pep talk, first of all. As I've said, leading up to this day, Thanksgiving.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. I know a lot of you were like you didn't get to travel, but think about it, are you one of those people that actually on some level is dreading the travel? Every part of getting to where you're going is an aggravation. And when you get there, you put up with it. It's aggravating. But look, I mean, it's it's what you know, I get it. Family, family, no matter how much you bitch, no matter how much you complain, no matter how miserable you are in it, it's predictable.

You understand it.

You lock into that groove, even if you're isolating with your wife and your kid or your husband and your kid or your husband and your wife and no kid or your husband and your husband, whatever it is, if you've been the hold up and just doing that thing, just scared all the time, maybe maybe it would be a relief to be around people that just make you miserable in a predictable way, not terrified, just unhappy and questioning, you know, your entire ability to have any sense of well-being.

Maybe you miss that.

But if that's the position you're in, if you've chosen not to travel because it's the right thing to do out of fear for yourself, others, your family, take a minute and just do it.

Actually, try to be grateful. Take a minute, sit down. Look at the people you love if they're with you, if they're not there, look at the mirror. That's hard. I know. Fuck that guy. I know. Fuck her. I know, but look at her. Look at him and say, hey, hey.

We're fucking alive, man, we're still alive some days I don't want to be, some days it's hard, but we're still alive and we're getting through this. We're getting through this. Together, even though no one else is here, I know everybody else is experiencing roughly the same bullshit. And try to find it in your heart and in your mind to be a little grateful. That you're pressing on whether you want to or not some days and if look, if you're you've got a family and it's been difficult.

Be grateful you have love and children in your life. Right. That you have love in your life, that somebody there that loves you, that these children, that you're OK. I think we can all, if it's possible and maybe you're not, maybe maybe things are terrible and I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I hope things get better, but there's got to be something you can find in your mind and in your heart to be grateful for. I mean, what else have we got?

I don't know what's going to happen, I don't know what happens when we go back to whatever we were, where we were, we just know going back to what we had to what we were to how it was, there's no going back. Things are broken. Things are dirty. Things are polluted. Things are germy. Divisions have been nurtured and will remain.

But I think as we head into this new year, as we head into the holidays, as we head into this day spent alone or with family, however you feel about it, I think a little gratitudes in order, but also a little bit of like, what am I going to do?

Are we all just sort of chomping at the bit to get back to what we were? I don't know if that's going to happen, but what are we going to do? How are we going to step up? What changed? What did we see that happened that would make us go? You know what? I'm fucking done being this being out of the loop, I'm done being detached, I'm done being apathetic, I'm done. Only caring about myself.

I'm going to do what? I'm going to do what are you going to do, figure it out? In your gratitude, in your heart, how are you going to help? Right. This holiday season is going to be an adjustment for everybody, folks, that's sort of what I'm saying. But even if things were normal, sometimes you just don't feel your best around the holidays and that can feel isolating and strange. You might feel anxious or depressed or having anger issues or relationship conflicts and you might feel like you're you're the only one where you're not.

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WTF gets started today at better dotcom slash WTF. Talk to a therapist online and get help. So here's my standard, it's like, hey, if you're there, if you locked up, if you're holed up with family, you know, if you know, if you're nervous, if you feel terror, if you feel uncomfortable, if you feel angry, you know, whatever, maybe you're regretting going. Maybe you're nervous about whatever it is, get outside no matter how cold it is, and take a walk, take a walk around the block, squirt out a few tears, take some deep breaths, take a walk around the block with a dog or cousin that you love or a kid.

Just take a walk around the block, get some air, look around, we're on the orb, the giant rock, it's still floating, still spinning. It's OK. You can still breathe. I don't know how long that'll be true for, but you can right now just get some air.

And also, the other thing I want to say is, you know, if you did have to go home or you are at home or maybe you've always been home or your folks just live down the street and maybe you're spending time with that family member who is a Trump supporter, which is difficult, which has been difficult for four years because you've been nothing but filled with bile and anger, trying not to hate your relatives for being brain fucked by a grifter.

Buy a pig grifter, president, pig grifter by trying to continue to see your relatives or your brother, your father, your sister, whoever, as the person you knew when you were growing up, as the person that had a good heart once, as a person who who who seemed reasonable but somehow became addled with bullshit.

And just push their fear through the conspiracy template. Now things are shifting, hopefully everything will continue to shift, but I think you can now say to them that you understand them, that you understand them if they're sitting there going like it was rigged. You know, it's like it's a lie, you can just say, look, I understand I understand that your conception of America is different than mine, that what you think is American is different than what I think of America as that what you understand this country to represent is different than me.

That I understand that you think that Americans. Are supposed to lie and cheat and steal shamelessly, proudly to to get what they want. That that you understand that they believe that lying, cheating and stealing and overturning the will of the people is an appropriate thing to do to hold on to power of the autocrat leader that they like and believe, despite the facts. You can now look at your loved ones and say, I understand that what you hoped for and what you want more than anything at any cost to anyone around you or the country at large.

And the planet is an authoritarian system with an autocratic leader who's going to lie and cheat and steal and break the current democratic system we have in order to maintain power. Just say, I understand you now, that America to you is based on minority rule and racism and limited choices for all. And that liberty is relative to those who are willing to lie and cheat and steal and believe in autocracy and authoritarianism and that racism is justified, that the American melting pot, that the idea of democracy, that the idea of diversity, that the idea of equality.

Is is bullshit and that you understand that's what they think and that you feel better now after four years, to see clearly who you once thought were your friends or people you understood in your family that you now know, OK, you believe in authoritarianism, you believe in minority rule, you are sympathetic to racists and you think it's OK to lie and cheat and steal to subvert.

The Democratic. Election process. In order to gain power. And that you believe. They're having no moral center and no sense of values. Is strength. And just say that to them to say, I get it now, could you pass the potatoes? Yeah, well, it's not going to you know, you can pick that up again in four years if that's the way it's going to go, but right now. By the fucking skin of our ass, we've held on to this republic somehow and democracy as we understand it, but I get it, I get who you are and we all know now.

We all know who your friends are and we all know what the people that you believe in and who believe with you what they look like and what they believe in. And a lot of it is just complicated bullshit and garbage. I understand you were fragile and vulnerable, you knew what a grifting pig fuck your brain up and you support it with Internet sewage that you string together like a goddamn crown of thorns around your dumbhead and justify your victimhood. As an entitled white person.

So go fuck yourself, grandpa. Kagawa, more turkey. Eight. So, look, Mike Campbell was here, as I said, in February, before covid, before the lovely, when Shelton passed away and they moved up the release of the record and now he's here. But it's interesting, maybe you can hear a tonal difference. But I did choose, as I said earlier, to offer my condolences as a way to open this conversation, which is something I became very familiar with being on the other side of.

And but it was it to me, it felt right because I miss Tom and God knows he must have. So this is me talking to Mike Campbell, the member of Tom Petty Heartbreakers and his band The Dirty Knob's has a record out reckless abandon, which is available now wherever you get your music. And this was recorded back in February before everything broke.

I'm assuming that your home studio is music oriented. Oh, yeah, make records record, use those in the studio to sing and I do some set. In fact, I use it on the record. You did. And I always interesting you would do that because I always used to have this posh, you know, Nouman my right to Coulier said, can I just use this for tracking? And I liked it so much. We ended up doing all the vocals on it on one of these.

Yeah.

Like I'm not like I'm not as much of a nerd as I should be. Like, what is the difference? Like, you had a big night. What did they know, Norman? Knowing the enjoyment was what you call a condenser Mike. OK, want the condenser mic picks up the whole room.

Yeah. This is a directional mike like it picks up right here. Right. And so if you're tracking with a band and you've got one of those condenser mikes, it's a mess. Right. But if you've got this down here, all the picks up mostly is your voice. So you can go you can play it all live. Yeah. Did you guys do that with this?

We did mostly live here, of course, some of the vocals I did after, but we tracked live with this and I went to do the vocals and I'm like the sound of this. We ended up using it.

It makes a big difference, right, to track it. Absolutely.

Because I like I listened to the record and it just seems like all of it seems so well integrated, none of it, because I think you guys you guys mostly. Did you do that on the last Petie record, too, on the last couple of years?

Yes. Yeah. Well, there's lots of ways. Are we starting now? I'm sure there's lots of ways to make records. And I've done before we started. I do want to say I'm sorry for the loss of your friend. And I you know, I wanted to say that you thank you, sir. And, you know, it's a safeguard, their personal.

I'm sorry, buddy. I'm OK. But let's get that out of the way. I think I'm over it. And somebody somebody'll say something and go, oh, yeah. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I'm working on it. OK, good man. It was rough. I've got some but yeah, we made a lot of records together and in lots of different ways. And you can make a record like with Jeff Lynne for instance. Yeah.

Building up the record maybe piecemeal. Yeah. And then you have a record. Right.

But you can feel that with a genuine record. You can and there's a it's a great way to do it, but it's different. We got to the point where we had done several records like that. Yeah. And then we decided, you know, it's really more fun to have the guys all around and try to get that chemistry in that moment where everybody breathes. Yeah. So the Heartbreakers, the last two or three albums at our club house, we just recorded their life with no headphones.

Where's that? In the hills. It's out in the valley. Oh, yeah. Middle of the valley. In the industrial section.

Yeah. No headphones, no headphones. We had some little vocal monitors. Kept them low. No. And play in the room and so on. The dirty jobs record. That's how I really prefer to do it. Yeah. It's organic, it's we're all playing live. Right. So those are all live and during the take. Yeah. And you know the vocals, some of them are alive, some of them. I went back because I could do a little better.

Sure. Um but that's the kind of record I wanted to make. Was everybody performing at the same time. Yeah.

And you know what's great about that? The record is like I can hear your whole history of who you are on that thing musically and what influence you do. You know what I mean? Like, you know, there's a lot of stuff like I can hear Florida. I can hear, you know, I can hear the blues, I can hear the country. You can take the boy out of the south, but you can't take the south out of the boat.

I guess not.

And there's like that one cut on there with the southern boy. One with that. Yeah, yeah. I fucking love that man. Thank you. That's one of my favorite tracks. Great drummer. Yeah.

Who is that guy. Matlock. Yeah. What's his story. His story is he's played a lot of sessions. He played on Alanis Morissette hit. You ought to know how many years ago and. Yeah and he was a session player. I didn't really know who he was and he did some touring with Slash. Yeah. For a while there. Oh really. Well he's used to playing some big gigs. Yeah. And he just like all these guys, the dirty jobs just appeared.

I didn't audition a band, I just met the guitar player. He knew the drummer who was a guitar player from, he's from L.A. He's been around a while.

Gary Hills kid. Yeah. Yeah. He's the studio guy or what.

Well sort of. He had a band back in the eighties. It didn't happen. But mostly he's just, uh, uh, he didn't do a lot of sessions. He's just a player. He's a good player. Yeah.

And I met him at a session, uh, but, uh, we just hit it off and it was and then know, like I said, the band, the four guys, the first four guys that showed up. Wow. And the personalities were just right. I mean, how lucky am I. Yeah.

And that is pretty lucky. How do you uh. But you didn't know you didn't like you never really played with them before. No, that's wild.

Yeah.

So the other one I want to ask you some gear questions on. Don't wait. Was that P ninety nine.

Uh, no. Don't wait, was the 59 Les Paul with a humbucker on the base pickup? OK, OK. Yeah, maybe. Well, even the tone all the way off on the bass.

So that's where you got that.

The cream sort of. Yeah. Yeah.

That 59 that my only 59. Yeah. Oh you got one. Well yeah I could barely get that one. It's crazy right. It's insane. I didn't know anything about this year because I'm not a real guitar.

No I'm a I'm a big Peter Green fan and I don't know, like I didn't know that the fifty nine was a thing until like recently, but it's really a thing.

It's the Stradivarius of electric guitar. What makes it that? You know, I think it was just that year the wood, the the neck was maybe a little bit thicker than the next year. Yeah. The pick, the alleyway, the metal is it.

You got to read the Sunburst one. Yeah. That's the one.

Right. And that's when Walsh has the story behind how I got there.

Really. So I'll keep it short. But I know we got to do a ridiculously expensive. So the first time I.

I'm Jason Isbell just bought one and I know how much it cost. OK, but we won't get into the numbers but it's, it's out there, it's, it's, it's crazy.

It's sick, you know, it's wrong. It's as expensive as a car gets when it's not attached to a name. There you go. Right. You know what I mean. Yeah. So there's a guy from Hollywood named Albert who used to have a store called Guitars R US and we would get guitars. And so he had collected a few nights over the years and he called me up ten years ago. Yeah, I said, I've got a 1959 Les Paul.

Yeah. And I said, well, you know, I've already got all this. You know, you should try this and I'll leave it at your house for a few days. And if you don't like it, he's trying to sell it to you.

Ten years ago before they were cool or what? Right before they were catching on. Right big way. They were already like right there. Yeah. Yeah. So I played it for and I was going to go on tour. I played it for a few days and I thought, you know what, this is not jangly.

I'm used to American Rickenbacker, so I don't know that I'm gonna need this, especially for that kind of money. So I said, you know, I'm going on tour, thanks anyway and give it back to him. Uh, my wife calls me and about a week later she goes, you know what? I think you should get that, if nothing else, for an investment. You know, she's one of those. Uh, and so I said, OK, call him back.

He'd sold it. Oh. So flash forward five years later. Yeah. The one I have now. Same story. Hey, Mike, I got this one is even better than the other one. Take it for a few days and if you like it. Yeah. So I did and by now the number was five times what the oh my God. Which I did not have on me at the time. But once again I was getting ready to go on tour and this guitar I fell in love with.

So I said, look, what if I give you half now.

Yeah. And half at the end of the tour. So we worked out a deal.

Yeah. He trusted you. Yeah. And so that's the one I have now.

You said on Mojo and Hypnotic Eye. Tom loved it. We started making records around that sound, around that guitar. And that's on that song you mentioned. That's the one on Don't Wait, Don't Wait is the thick Les Paul on the bass.

Pick up the old Eric Clapton trick where you turn the tune all the way up. Yeah, all the way off base pick up all the way up and amp cranked up and it gets to that kind of momentum, they call it.

Oh, is that what it is? And that's what I was doing. I was trying to emulate that sound and also rip man.

So about it. Yeah. What and you got that through. What do you what amps you playing through.

Well, mostly little Fender's delux I think. I think there I got a fifty three deluxe and those are beautiful. Yeah. Use that on that particular album though. I was using this Duesenberg amp that they made which is relatively small. Yeah. That was modeled after that.

You got to crank them right. Yeah. I mean to get the tone you got.

Yeah. You push it up there till it gets sweet but it's sort of wild to me that you were, that you were so used to jangly guitars, you know, like, you know, what was that you said ten years ago. Yeah. That when you bought that one. Because you that I mean, that was sort of that because you identify you, I connect you with Fender's and Rickenbacker is exactly right. Exactly. I mean, that was the trip all the way, way back like when you started.

That was the stuff that we love that we grew up on.

Like we come from Florida, right? Yeah. What was going on? Florida with your band? This would have been seventy to seventy two. And it was right when the Allman Brothers are happening and Leonard Skinner and all those bands were playing Les Paul's. Did you go see the Allman Brothers. I never saw the album. I saw Skinner.

We played some gigs with them back, back and forth in the back of a truck. Yeah. Back in Jacksonville and stuff. And they were nobody yet either. How were these guys?

I didn't get to talk to them much, really, but we played some games with them and said hi to them and they were friendly. Were they good in Jacksonville? I know where I'm from. Yeah, they were great. They sound just like they do now. It's kind of crazy, right? You just had to have it, I guess, at an early age in the back of trucks.

You play with them.

He said, yeah, it was it was a flatbed truck set up in a field, you know, and there was like two hundred hippies there. It was a festival. It was so called love. And I guess. Oh yeah. Back in the 70s, but it was funky, but it was beautiful. Yeah, yeah. But to get back to my point, yeah, a lot of bands in Florida around that time were going after the Allman Brothers.

Sound like two, three guitars thick. Yeah, right.

And we never really liked that. We were inspired more by the Beatles, the Stones, Animals, Kinks, the bright, jangly, bright really. Kinks were played in their early kinks are a major influence.

Yeah, really. So when the Heartbreakers started making records, we had Rickenbacker and Fender's mostly. Yeah. And that became the sound that we were used to, the bright, jangly sound. So the Les Paul was another world for me. I had to get used to it, but then I found a way to do it.

That's that's why I. But it took a while, huh. A little while. Yeah. Not too long.

But I mean, I remember like listening to like the like the first Heartbreakers record like that.

It's so weird when, you know, do you think about these records because like I've listened to that first Heartbreakers record, you know, thousands of times. Wow. I mean, you know what I mean? All my life. Thank you. I listen to it. I remember I got it in high school, but it's strange that my favorite songs on there are not that, you know, like Mystery Man, what a great fucking song that is.

And that's the one take. Yeah. Really? Yeah. And who wrote that?

You and Tom wrote that song. Yeah, I wrote the guitar riff is great man. It's like straight up country. Where from.

That was my Fender broadcaster. Yeah. Tom played a straight. You had no broadcaster. Yeah. And that was my main guitar. But that song is a perfect example. I'm had the course where I do do do do do. Yeah. Yeah. And it turned into that song very Van Morrison influenced shirt with that.

But that night you get those open strings Ringo to be ready to play. Yeah we did. We stumbled on that you know.

Yeah. And also wild one forever. Oh yeah. That fucking love that song. I do too.

Thank you. He sings the shit of it too. It's a real it's a real teenage kind of song. It is. Because I was a teenager. Well there you go. You just sit there thinking about the girl that I couldn't get. I'm still a teenager in heart. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you got you got to be so, like, moving through all that stuff.

I mean, did you guys do what you think about it? Yeah, it's great. Good memories. Yeah. Well yeah, it's it's always the songs for me that like that of course American Girl. But I mean all the other ones. That was my first rocking around with you to that guitar. That was crazy man. That sound down, down, down. Like what was that you remember.

Yeah. The Rockin Around with You was the first song I ever wrote with Tom and it was my rifting. Yeah, yeah. Oh, right, right, right, right. The broadcaster. Yeah. And he wrote those great words to it and that we were off and running. Oh man.

And so before that though when you guys were just hanging around in Florida like I know you guys did The Nutcracker, Mudcrutch, you guys play you. That's when you started with those guys. Yeah. Tom had a band called.

Yeah. And then I joined. Yeah.

But we just out there like I know I remember seeing the documentary and you sort of are captured. This guy like you kind of lived somewhere in the country, maybe like years of kind of guitar hermit somewhere, you know. Yeah. Some sort of young wizard.

Well yeah but the wizard part. But yeah, I had a house out in the country with my drummer, Randall Marshall, and I had seen Mudcrutch play at the college. Yeah. And they were kind of Burrito Brothers type band. They were doing Country No Country Rock the harmonies. Yeah. And until then I'd been in like blues type bands. And so my band broke up and I told the drummer, I said, they're auditioning a drummer. Yeah.

And you ought to try them out. So he invited him out to our little farmhouse. Right. I was in the back room with my short hair and my cutoffs. Really. And yeah. And the story goes, you know. Yeah. That he auditioned and they said, oh, we just lost our guitar player. Do you know any guitar players? Yeah, well, there's this guy in the back room, you know, and I had a Japanese guitar, a little sixty dollar GooYa.

And so I come walking out with that and they looked at me and you could see their face.

Oh no. How do we get out of this?

You know, I'm stuck with this guy the rest of the evening. Yeah.

And they go, so we're you know, you want to play something? What do you know? I said, Well, how about Johnny B. Goode? Sure. You don't know where to start. You played the song and we get to the end of and Tom goes, I don't know who you are, but you're in my band. And it just happened just like that. It was Destiny.

It was on Johnny B. Goode. Johnny B. Goode. Hope that's something that everybody knows, you know, that's why I knew it really well. That's all I know. I'd studied Chuck Berry. You had. So I think you impressed them that I knew the right way to do it.

That's the interesting thing about that thing about Chuck Berry, because, you know, when I the more I pay attention to hearing you say that and also like seeing that doc with Keith, you know, and Keith did the Chapel Hill Rock and. Right. Like, well, again, I'm a Keith freak, but, you know, it's not it's not as simple as I can't get a..

And a.. There's a there's a bounce to it.

Oh yeah. Well, he stole that from Louis Jordan, the swing back. OK, out of that, it was all right kind of thing. Yeah, and he made it. It wasn't Jimmie Johnson.

Well, he was in the band, but those lines, a lot of them I read I read that you got from the Louis Jordan speaking. Yeah. So they have a swing. Right.

But he bounces on that guitar. It's a weird fuckin rhythm is the rhythm. Yeah. He found it. Yeah. Did he take you out to get that. I'm still working on it. Right.

Because you know you know, that's a good point. Yes. A lot of people play Chuck Berry and they don't play it right now. They play the notes. Right. But it's all like this. Yeah. Yeah. His thing is that yeah. It's almost like a shuffle and a straight beat together. It's a weird bounce when they meet in the middle. That's the Chuck Berry magic. Yeah. And that's hard to do. Dylan knew how to do that.

Oh did he. Yeah. But that's interesting. You would bring that up because that's a you can tell somebody really, really studied. Again they they don't play it straight.

Just straight. They play it with a little swing and bounce to it and could do it. Yeah. He knew the difference really. Did you talk to him about it? You come here. You he did.

Because you talk specifically about tell you a story about. Yeah, we were in rehearsal. Yeah.

And he was an electric guitar for. For what. The tour. For the tour that we were going to do with him and we were playing some Chuck Berry ish thing. And I don't know what is technical, but most of the junk and junk and junk and jump right there.

That bar band was derate the straight year, which is OK. Yeah, sure. And then Dylan was playing the other Kuchuk against it. Yeah. And at first I was thinking like, that's wrong. He's not playing with us. Yeah. And then we stopped and he goes, I'm looking for that middle point. Yeah. If I play this and you play that and we meet in the middle, that's where it happens.

He taught me that that was like some you are you're well into your career, man. Yeah.

But you guys never explained quite that way.

How how did it made sense to me?

Well, that's what I realized a few years ago, is that, you know, with blues or with that kind of rock and roll like any bar band can play it. That's right. Right. Anybody can do it, which is the problem and the beauty of it. But in order to own it, you got to find your source. And, you know, and if you don't go back and really figure out what the fuck Chuck is doing, how were you going to start from?

Well, it's a mysterious thing. Swing, uh, you know. Yeah, it is. Right. You need a drummer that can do it. True. Yeah.

The whole band has to do it. Yeah. To work. But yeah. And it's even hard to explain. But you know when you feel it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Well I just remember that petty song they went down swinging. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a big three chord guy. Yeah. Yeah.

Like three chords to write three chords and the truth. Right.

That's exactly right. That's what country music is. Did you watch that documentary. I haven't seen it dude. You got to watch and to see it. It's crazy I hear. Yeah. It all goes back to Jimmy Rogers in the Carter family. That's where he starts.

Perfect. And you work with cash too, right?

I did put you on the first one. On the first American one. Yeah, quite a couple of them. The first one and and the Heartbreakers did a record with him too.

It's right with Rick Rubin with producing, but I spent a lot of time with him and that was one of the greatest times of my life, really.

Well, you seem to be sort of like, you know, pick stuff up and you always open to sort of new shit and learning. Say, what did you what did you take from him?

Oh, so much. Yeah, mostly. What a what a beautiful human being.

He could tell you a story. A demonstration. Yeah.

But, um, when I was growing up, my dad was in the Air Force. He'd come home and lay on the couch and he'd put on either Elvis or Johnny Cash. Yeah. And he lay on the couch just zone out. Yeah. And I would go, what what is he hearing? What is right. There's something going on here. OK, that was my first introduction to that music. So when we were on tour and the Heartbreakers were on tour in Europe.

Yeah. And The Highwaymen were in the same town as I think it was Kopenhagen, Kris Kristofferson, Waylon, Johnny and Willie.

Yes. OK. And I had never met Johnny before, but we went backstage before the show and we're introduced to everybody. And Johnny was sitting there, of course, the first thing out of my mouth that Johnny, you know, my dad played your records all the time.

I love those records. And I said, my favorite song is Don't Take Your Guns to Town. Hmm. I don't know if you know that song. Yeah. And he said, Oh, yeah, we're not doing that tonight. I'm really sorry.

OK, but yeah. So they get up in the middle of the show. All of a sudden he goes, I'd like to do this song we don't normally do. And he played that song for me. So that's Johnny Cash.

That's that's him. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful human being. Very generous. And how how did it make you cry. Kind of. Yeah. Yeah.

And we just we were really close and he treated me really nice. And of course musically he was just inspiring and he's great to be around him.

It's interesting because like you forgot because a guy like that who who is such a rock in terms of how, you know, he handles like how he was musically like, you know, he was essentially Johnny Cash. But somehow or another, you know you know, you guys, you could back. Him and it would all make sense, like that's how big a personality he was. Yes, right. You're never going to overcome Johnny Cash. No.

Right. No. When he would walk in the room, it was Johnny's room, right? I mean, yes, one of those guys. And it was great, of course.

And he was so kind and open and talented.

How much did the country play into your early life outside of your old man and Johnny Cash? I mean, were you a country guy?

No, I was always kind of rock and roll. Yeah, the Beatles. The Stones. But I also went back and dug up Muddy Waters, Howlin Wolf. He had to write Hank Williams. You know, I I grew up right at the end of that stuff. And I write I soaked it up.

You got to go back for the muddy. Yeah, well, I did. Yeah. I mean, there's no other way to go how there's that's the only way it's available. I know. And, you know, it was it was a tribute to a lot of the English groups that they brought it. Man called attention these black artists in America. You're right overlooking, you know, Riley read Jimi Howlin Wolf, Willie Dixon, we had The Muddy Waters and John Lee Hooker.

You do John Lee Hooker groove on this record Diddley Bow did to all those guys.

So you did that. You did the don't, don't, don't knock to knock. The book is like straight up hooker man straight for it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Did you ever play with that guy? Yes I did. A couple of times he set in with us. Really. But what an amazing guy. We're up in the Bay Area at the Fillmore. Yeah, right. We did a stand up there back in the late 90s.

He came up with the Heartbreakers.

Yeah. And you guys just walk in, right? Oh, yeah. One chord. I just followed you a great story about a hooker.

Yeah. My wife and I, you know, the Golden Bear in Huntington Beach used to be this great club. And my wife and I went down to see him. John Lee Hooker. Yeah. And he had a pickup band. And, you know, we're sitting there and it's good. And they get into the boogie thing right here and they start doing this boogie. And I go, yeah, this is so great. You know, we're here with him.

Yeah. And it went on for like ten minutes. Right. And then it got real quiet, still grooving. And he started going on to boogie, man. Yeah. You know, for another two minutes, I'm the boogie man. That's all he said. Yeah. And then it got real quiet and he looked at the audience, he goes, I started it and I just wanted to follow in my chair.

Yes, you did, sir.

And thank you for reminding me he did.

But he'll go. Yeah, he has to.

I had I talked to Buddy Guy and he's got some great stories about Chicago and about those dudes that about like, you know, how people you know, I it's so amazing to hear those stories about, like those guys that invented that shit.

He started it. Right. Did you ever listen that hooker, would you like to be the guy that started the boogie? He did it. No one can do it.

And you can't argue. You're right. Yeah, that's your thing. They done it. Like, do you ever listen to that hooker and heat record? You can't go because that's that was that's an amazing record where he's where he's playing. He's got canned heat there and he's got that guy. Right. What's his name. Wilson, the main dude. They're all like blues nuts, right? Yeah.

Wilson Yeah. I will, I will say Al Wilson, Al Wilson, all those.

And he kept saying, I can't shake you guys. You must study my records because you've got that guy Harpe going, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, man. I'm a cool man. I love that. Have you seen the Paul Butterfield document. Oh, is in an effort. You would love it. It is. I found it the other day and it's got a lot of footage from Chicago with Muddy and and Howlin Wolf and Mike Bloomfield, which you hardly ever see one of them starting out. You would love it.

He's a 59 Gibson guy, right? Boom film industry. He started with Italy, Italy, and then later on he moved up to the Les Paul. Yeah, but he's a great documentary.

I got to check that out because I just watch I just got the Criterion channel and I watch some of the outtakes from the Newport Folk Festival.

And they had Paul Butterfield, right? Yeah. Yeah. And like, you know, I never it was so funny because, like, I'm watching it and he's got he's playing the harp like, you know, upside down.

He's playing, but he's playing it out here, like, out here. And I'm like, why is he so far away from the mic? And he kind of builds it up. And then the last verse, he leans into that Boit Mike, and he just it was all built. There was a trick.

I learned something about him, too. You know, the harp is usually low notes and. Yeah, right. He plays the other way around. Really. So he played this upside down. Yeah. Huh.

I wonder if that's how he learned. That's probably just how he picked it up and learn that. Who's playing on your record. You the harmonica. Yeah. Yeah. It's fun right. Yeah.

Mucca anybody suck and blow. Yeah man I can't play like Paul Butterfield boy. But you know you hit a few notes in there.

But that's the thing about, you know, that's the other thing I notice I realize about music recently and I talked I just talked to, uh, Cathy Valentine from the go.

Yeah. Yeah, she's sweet. She's got a new book and it's nice. But but we're just talking about how, you know, like it's not about virtuosity.

It's about, you know, you coming through your shit, how you it's how you play it, tone. It's just, you know, it's the. She meets Stevie Ray Vaughan. She's from Austin. He's from OK and Stevie Ray, you know, they were talking about Jimmie Vaughan, you know, whose great love to you.

And he Stevie Ray said, When I play, I put everything I have into it.

When my brother plays, he put in about 10 percent because it's a choice, you know, because that's where his sound is. I see that. Isn't that wild?

Like, you know, it's not about like we're just talking about harmonica, but you have to be Paul Butterfield to to sound like you feel something through an instrument.

Right? True. The feeling. Yeah. Yeah.

But like when you were when you were starting out though, your idol, those were who you know, we discussed some of your heroes.

But I mean you what is it that because you play a specific way and you have a lot of space and it's very tasteful and you're not showing off and you know how to adapt and, you know, you can clearly tell who you are. I mean, did you make decisions early on to to not do certain things and do certain things?

I didn't make any decisions. I just I just learned from the records I liked, you know.

And who were the biggest ones that you taught you how to play guitar? Well, over and over.

Things I heard were Luther Perkins and Scotty Moore. Oh, yeah, Elvis. And when I got to my age, the Beatles and all those all those British bands came along. Yeah, I just was gone on that. You know, a lot of those songs are three minute songs. They have guitar parts, but they don't have long solos. Yeah. And that's just how I thought you do it, you know, and that's that's what I wanted to emulate.

Did you like George? Oh yeah. I loved George. And you got to work with him. Did you and George Douglas, the Wilburys.

Yeah, I was around for some of that. Yeah. And what did you work with him other than that?

I did some I did a concert with George Albert Hall once. Really? He asked me to to play a concert with him and we did a lot of you know, he worked on moon fever a little bit. So he was over around that. Let me. The javelin record. Yeah, George. The whole other book. I mean, I could tell you what a wonderful guy he was, but a great influence, guitar wise, his guitar parts.

And I think when I when I play guitar. Yeah, I try to emulate those guys, you know, Keith and George Harrison, Keith Richards. Keith Richards. Yeah. And all those bands that The Kinks animals, the guitar parts were really simple. Yeah. But melodic. And they don't get in the way of the song, you know, they do a job and then they allow the song to, to, you know, blossom. Well, well that's interesting.

They're like separate those two because like, you know, I'm a huge Keith guy. I'm a George guy to a degree. But I don't know that I really can understand or appreciate specifically what he brings to the guitar that makes him who he is. What, George? Yeah, well, he's a melodic player.

Yeah. And he's got a little bit of Chet Atkins fingerpicking here, OK? And he's just a he's just a fiddle player. He plays with a great feel. There's a sadness to it, to sadness, this whole place with soul, especially when he started playing Slade, he found the whole new voice for himself.

And he was just a genius at taking those songs as Lennon McCartney songs. Yeah. And finding bits for it. I like, for instance, that song. You can't do that. Yeah. Danny Danon told me one day that they were recording that and they he didn't have that guitar part. Oh. And they had the chords and they say, OK, we're going to do this track now George, do something. Yeah. And so he just went down down there and and and and and which is lick.

Yeah. It makes the song right. And that's the kind of player he was. He could come up with just the right piece that fit the song.

That's them. And that's of genius. I mean. Yeah. And all those songs if you listen to the guitar closely, it's pretty brilliant playing.

Yeah. It's kind of it. No it no one sounds like that. No.

And it's the song and those ones that he wrote early on to me were just haunting like don't bother me. Yeah.

Like that song don't go on my own. One of my own and a great song. Yeah. Right.

And did you, did you watch that the the Lennon thing above us only sky thing that.

Yes. Yes.

Did you see that moment where, where George comes in and he's got this right and and when he's working something on the piano and he just looks at George, you know, for guitar support and it was like nothing was said and it was right there.

Yeah.

It was so moving to me. Nothing was it was so clearly symbiotic that he completely trusted George in that moment.

Well, that's his genius. George is just another example which I read. Yeah. And I love her. Oh yeah.

Down, down, down, down. They didn't have that, that. Wow.

George came up with that. Wow. So like what was your relationship with Tom along those lines in terms of songwriting.

Well it was telepathic like he was that was not much discussion. We just had a I had an affinity for him and he had an affinity for me. And he would usually write songs on his own when he did and come in on acoustic. Right. Or and just rhythm. Yeah. And I would just sit down, like you mention. A mystery man, you know, he started playing Jane, Jane, Jane. No, no, no, no, no.

I don't know. I just knew what he wanted and I was able to make it work with him. Yeah, we had that thing. It was beautiful. Yeah. It's a once in a lifetime thing we had.

Yeah. Man. And so in all of the songs. So usually what would happen is he'd have it on the acoustic and you guys would build it out.

He would usually have chords. Yeah.

Them and sing and write and you figure out who to join in. Right. Would join in and it always seemed to find a place. Yeah.

And I talked to Benmont a while back. He sort of like a wizard of kind of a guy.

And so yeah it's sort of interesting because when I listen to your show with the dirty knobs, so like there's something about that record, maybe like maybe like Mojo or maybe one of the later records. But the Heartbreakers. But there's something about how you seem to cover. It's almost like the band, like, you know, this is American music in all its ways. Do you dig what I'm saying?

I know, but I didn't think about that. No, I know. But you're saying, like, you know, it's a nice compliment, right? You. Because, like, I think like Tom Petty and I, you know, I go you and you guys, the Tom Petty songbook is like a fucking classic American thing.

Man, I think you're right. I'm proud of those songs. Yeah. Yeah, you are good.

And I think that's why the Heartbreakers lasted one reason they lasted so long as the songs are good and they hold up over time. Yeah. Don't for sure man. Oh definitely.

But now when you go out with because I mean how did the Fleetwood Mac trip happen.

Well um, uh, Tom passed away and I took some time and then I realized I'd always thought my band, The Dirty Jobs, that if the Heartbreakers ever take a hiatus, that's what I want to do. I was that the second to the last show, by the way, at the bowl. Oh, yeah.

Well, good. You got a piece of that? Yes, I did.

So I was I took some time to grieve a little bit and then I started working on the knob's record and I had it like three quarters or more done. And then I got the phone call from Mick one day and he met him before I had met him. Yeah, I'd done a session with him once, but I didn't know him that well. Yeah, but I know Stevie really well. Anyway, he called up and said, you know, I've been listening to your catalog and we want you to join the band.

It's not an audition. We want you to join the band. So I immediately thought, OK, join the band, we're going to make a record, you know? And I said, well, it starts with the songs. He said, oh, well, we have some tour dates. First we have to tour. OK, tricking you into the tour?

Well, not tricking me. I was fine with it. Sure. That's just the way my mind works. Right. Let's make a right. So we I put that on the back burner, which is fine.

And I said, OK, the tour ended up being a year and a half and God bless the knobs. They waited for me. Yeah. And so when that was over, I went right back to work on the record and, you know, in a week or two I finished it.

But like, when you go when you step in and to those songs. Right. Yeah. I mean, that's that's a heavy catalogue. That's some big shit.

Be a great song. Big songs now and Lindsay's very specific type of player. Absolutely. So I didn't see any of the shows.

What do you do? Do you do his licks or what?

Absolutely. Well you have to on those songs. It was a challenge for me because I wasn't used to doing that. I used to play in my own songs like Tom Petty songs to.

Yeah. You know, Heartbreakers songs. Yes.

Yes. Songs that I came up with. Yeah, exactly. So here I was, you know, like any of those songs like Dreams, it needs those guitar lines or the song doesn't work. So I took the challenge on and I dug in and learned them. Yeah. And and played them. Yeah. Accurately. Yeah. And in other places and other songs where they wanted something me to step out, I could add my own thing, but I looked at it like my job is to honor these songs.

Right. And honor this band which I love and do the best I can to recreate those guitar parts the best I can. Yeah. And that's what I did.

And did you like did you have to, like, figure out the equipment?

And, you know, I just I use my amps and my guitars, but I did have to study the records quite a bit and really dig into what's he doing there. What is that note? Oh, I get it now.

OK, now when you do that for someone like him, he I assume you respect him as a guitar. Absolutely. Are you like when you do that, when you kind of have to figure out someone else's shit at this point in your life, were you sort of like, wow, that's interesting, you know, that he made that decision?

Well, you know, it's very similar to when I first started learning guitar. Right. Let's do a Beatles record. What's he doing right in the court, you know, in the course of that challenge? Yeah. He learned things right that you can take from it. Yeah. So I had the same experience with that. I looked at like or if say it's a harp, we're going to learn a cover that had a guitar part in it.

I'd go learn it so I could at least respect respect how it started. Yeah. And I found it was a very interesting process to, to study those songs. Yeah. And figure out what was going on on the guitar and. I learned a lot. Yeah, yeah, because he's a different kind of guitar player than he is. Yeah, in some ways we're similar though here. Like, say, I go your own way at the end with the soaring guitar and that kind of stuff.

We play in a similar way. Sort of. Yeah. Yeah. And so those things were easy. Some of the more intricate fingerpicking little lines he was doing, take a little work for me to pick it out and figure out what's going on. But I think I got it down pretty good. And so are you going to make a record with them maybe.

Oh no, I don't know yet. I know we're going to take a year and a half off and and see what they want to do. He's a hell of a drummer. Any rhythm section. I love that every night.

John and Mick. Yeah.

Yeah. I like Peter Green. Yeah, I liked Paige and Back and Clapton and Mick Taylor. Maybe more, I'm sure my taste. But Peter Green was definitely. Yeah. You ever play with Mick Taylor? I haven't, but I would love to.

I love his playing. Yeah. I haven't heard him in a while. Oh he's good. Yeah he has that feel. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

So when you like I didn't realize until I was kind of poking around doing research because me and my buddy Dean, we're talking about Don Henley and you made some big songs with him. Yeah.

I mean, I mean to yeah.

The Boys of summer. Right. Right.

And now what was the process of writing with Don Henley? Well, it's the same as writing with Tom. Oh, yeah. What I was doing with Tom was I would put music together and make a demo. Yeah. With all the instruments to show it to him. And if he liked it, he would start singing over it and come up with a song. And it was the same with Don. I had the piece of music. Yeah.

I went over his house with a little cassette player and sat down at the desk. Yeah, he listened in total silence. Right.

And then I said, OK, and left and on the way home the phone rings like I wrote the great sound of your music. I can't wait to do it. It happened just like that.

But how does a car like that happen? Why over there?

Well, Jimmy Ivy. Oh, OK, Jimmy. I think he had heard that that demo of mine and he said, you know, Don Henley is looking for songs, right? I said, what kind of song does he want? He said, an image maker.

Interesting. You're already well on your way with it. With the Heartbreakers. Oh, yeah. We were deep. We were already deep in. I was your guy, right? He was.

He was the producer, Damn the Torpedoes and a couple of albums in that era with us. OK, he prefers mainstream commercial breakthrough was produced by Jimmy Iovine. He made the huge that damn to damn the torpedoes. Yeah. With Refugee and here comes my girl and all those songs. That was. That was Jimmy. Jimmy. Ivan. Yeah.

And then. And then um. Oh so Dan.

OK, so after the fourth record are you third. Our third record. OK, so that was the big record. It changed everything for us. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

And so he sort of like yeah. Hey he looking.

Well you got going I think sitting on the well he's an interesting guy, he's brilliant because he also took we had stopped dragging my heart around uh which I had written with Tom. Yeah. And we had cut it and we weren't so sure about. Yeah. I think that could be a duet. He just happened to be doing a record with Stevie Nicks.

That's how that has. Over here. Over here below that happened.

Yeah. Are you guys still friends. Oh yeah. Yeah. We have a deep connection. And your first two records are on shelter records. Right. Which was was Leon around.

Leon was around. He didn't play on those records, but it was his excuse me, his producer, Danny Cordell, uh, who produced us. And so we were around his house.

How does that happen with shelter like you? So you guys are because I remember like what I remember when I was a kid, when the first time PRATTY record come out, I didn't really catch on here until later. Right. Right. It was like England was a big deal and, you know, and then he came back around, you know.

Exactly. Yeah, that's how it happened. But with shelter records, did you know anything about shelter records like.

No, we were in Florida and we made a demo. Yeah. And sent it out. And I think maybe London Records called back and then Shelter Clark and Tom like Denny Cordell. We all did. Yeah, we just hit it off. And so it was his label. Yeah. He we were going to go out to California. We stopped at Tulsa on the way where Leon had a studio and met Danny and did a recording. And we went on out to L.A. and Danny took us under his wing and helped us get a star couple, huh.

Yeah, because like those essential. Yeah. You learned a lot from that guy. A lot.

He was great at saying, well, you know, this song that's so good, this song go more in this direction. You know, he had an overall view. He wasn't a musician, but he knew songs. Yeah. And he knew style. And he he could tell which direction we should go in. Uh, he helped us that way a lot.

And I like because I know that Leon Russell, he he brought in that later Freddy King shit. You know, you can change all that stuff.

It was a great time. Like Willie was on our label. Right. Right. It was a really interesting time. Low stuff was going on.

And then, I mean, like I remember. I know I'm sure you've covered this shit before, but I mean, obviously. But, like, what makes the big shift? I mean, Jimmy comes in, but you guys were between labels or he took you. How does that happen? Well, it's a long. But we want shelter records. Yeah, and they were having some financial trouble and they they sold their label to ABC Records without telling us.

And then ABC sold to MCE without telling us. So we went, wait a second. You know, you can't do that. We don't want to be on that label. Right. We're not going to record for M.K.. Yeah. Yeah. So we did a lawsuit tour. Yeah. To make money because we weren't going to we were playing hard to get our record. You fixed our deal, right, because they had us under the old deal, which was kind of a shit.

Yeah, right. I won't go into details. You want a revival deal.

We want to get renegotiate a fair deal and then we'll record. And eventually they came around and then around that time, we need a producer and we'd heard Patti Smith record because the night. Oh, so Jimmy, having produced that, let's get him high. And so he came in and got us that sound and we made that third record. It's so interesting, man. Stuff happens. You just, you know. Yeah, well, I mean, it's all for destiny and destiny.

But you fought for something you could have gotten lost for. Yeah, but you guys stood up for yourselves. True. What do you do you got any relationship with Springsteen? I know him.

I did a I produced an album for his wife, Patti. Oh, yeah. Back in the eighties that I'm really proud of. Most people haven't heard it, but it's a really good record. Sweet record. Yeah. And we have a good relationship, but we're not friends. We don't hang out because I think like for me, like, you know, in terms of like great American music of the last 40 years, you know, Springsteen impediment.

Yeah. All the way. Yeah. We got lumped in with him for a while there. You did a totally different man. That's OK though. Yeah. It's totally different in some ways. Yeah.

You know, in terms of the approach, how about Keith, did you ever play with Keith.

I played with Keith at a rehearsal once. Was that big thrill? Oh, it was it was an amazing night. I don't think he even knew who I was, but it was amazing. Yeah.

What did you get from Keith? Because we talked about George and you brought George up and Keith in the same sentence, like, yeah, yeah. For me, like, you know, when I listen to Keith and I'm like, I'm just an amateur guitar player and I don't know about all those open tunings, but yeah, he he just chooses the weirdest moments to fill the gap.

Yeah. And he's got his own groove. And, you know, it seems like Charlie's following him. Right. But, you know, it's no employees like that. But you can't really explain it, can you?

I could probably try to explain it, but I wouldn't want to. Yeah, it's it's just instinctual way of playing. But, you know, speaking of Chuck Berry and you mentioned, it's OK if you think about it, George Harrison and Keith, in the beginning, both did Chuck Berry song. That's right. And they both picked up on that. Keith took it. I mean, the interesting thing about the tunings and all that that I found, I love the Stones from the beginning before he was doing the open tuning.

Yeah. He was doing more of a Chuck Berry stuff up and and the songs also the writing. Yeah. But what's beautiful about what Keith did is about, I don't know, four years into his career, he reinvented his whole style with that open tuning.

Right. You know, the street fighting man. And I think Ry Cooder gave it to him. Yeah.

So and that's that's hard to do to to get good once. But then to recreate yourself and go past it twice is really amazing with that open tuning.

You ever fuck around with that.

Oh yeah. I use it all the time with it a d well there's different ones. Yeah. Which ones do you. G is the one I'm more familiar g g and a muddy used a G too. Right. Well yeah. They all use them all I guess. Yeah. Right. You know. Yeah.

You tune it to an open chord whatever cause that gets you, it gets you a harmonic, it gets you a full sound.

Right. Without having to push your fingers down. Right. All your fingers. You just put one in playing. There it is full right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you're forced to come up with things on top of that, it pushes you into the different voicings and files and things.

How could you use some of that on this record, on this record or you don't even think.

I don't think I used to open tunings on this record, but on the harpsichord over the years. I used it a few times. Yeah.

And we're yeah. With between fingerpicking and pick Picken, I've been talking to a lot of dudes now everyone's into the playing with the fingers now. Two fingers.

It's to say because I find as I get older I don't pick up the pick as much as I used to.

I'll just play with my fingers and you too. Finger guy. Two, three. Yeah. Two or three. Sometimes one.

Yeah. Whatever is in the is then the space to get the job done. Yeah. Yeah. I mean just a different sound when you just picking with your thumb.

Right. Yeah. I learned when I, when I first heard fingerpicking, I like Chet Atkins and I had to thumb pick and I can, I could never get the cumbersome thing with the pecs and the thumb picks. So I just threw that away and I started playing with my thumb. But I learned to stuff without the pick and I just so I can play with my thumb. You can do the Chet Atkins those riffs.

Yeah. Oh my God. I can show you something later on. But yeah, I learned those records, some of those songs. I wanted to know how to do that. Yeah. The reason was when I first. Playing guitar, my relatives have come over and I go out to learn the guitar and play something. Yeah, here's a deal, right? I got to figure out how to impress them. Here's a lick. Yeah. And they go, oh, great.

And they walk away. Right.

If next time they come over, I'm going to play the whole song, bass and rhythm and melody. Chet Atkins. Oh yeah. So I forced myself to learn that so I wouldn't be embarrassed. Oh, here's one thing I think go well. How do you do that?

Yeah. If you do a whole Chet Atkins way and then you've got that skill set. Yeah. Yeah.

And yeah, it taught me coordination and it's just, you know, part of learning and what do you like.

You spend a lot of time with Dylan I guess, huh.

Quite a bit.

Several years we toured around with the Heartbreakers and Dylan. Yeah. And I've done a few records just with him without the Heartbreakers.

And what what what do you get? What's the sense of him that I mean, he's such a mysterious kind of interesting dude. Yeah.

You know, what did you find outside of, like, you know, that moment where you talking about the sort of meeting in the middle, on the rhythm thing, on that very thing?

What else is what is his magic? You know, what did you learn from that dude? Oh, what did I learn?

I mean, in a sense of like being around it, like, is it a songwriting trip? Is it a president's trip?

It's all those things. It's confidence. Yeah. And it's just I mean, nobody can do what he does a band leader thing to, uh.

Yeah. Um, you know, one thing I learned from him. Yeah. That was a little awkward at first was that he when he was touring with us, we rehearsed and learned a lot of songs in a certain way.

Right. We get on stage. He might change it. Right. He was brave. That's the word. He's brave. The Heartbreakers, if we had a song, it was like this. We're going to play it like this because we don't want to lose them. Uh, and he kind of thought, well, I'm going to do what I want to do. And if I lose them, I probably won't. But I'm not worried about it.

I'll get him back. He had yeah. I'll get them back. They'll pay for that. But I think it was just a courage and bravery and everything. He did that. Yeah. I hope I learned some of that from him.

So now when you look back at the catalog, you know, of what were you like when you think about the Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers records, you know which ones are like ones?

Were you like, oh, man, that one fucking magic forever. I mean, I know there's a lot of fun, but like, which record were you guys? Did you think you guys are really like that first record?

And I'll tell you why it was when I go back to the was those songs and it was us finding who we were, you know, especially like American Girl. I remember when we did that song like and I heard it back and I'm like, how did we do that? But that's us. Nobody else can do that, right? We can do that. That's our thing. The way he sang it, the lyric imagery, the harmonics in the instruments, we found a thing.

Yeah. And so that album is is in all the songs on it. I like me too. I always go back to that one. I mean, I like all the albums are different, different songs here and there, but I had to pick one. I'd probably go with that one.

Isn't that amazing. Yeah. That first record. Yeah.

Because you could feel the magic, the magic of discovery. But I find it. We're finding what we are and I can hear that in the tracks. Yeah. And how long did it take to record that thing.

Not too long because it must be different man. But you guys were playing live. You said the last couple. But like even watching Jimmy, I find it like dealing with it. And obviously you're different than Bruce, but like a studio thing.

I recorded something in a studio once and I'm like, holy shit, this is a job.

How do you keep this fresh? Well, that's a challenge. It's part of the gig right now. I get it. Yeah, but I guess the purity of the first record. And then why did you find that? You know, because of the studio it becomes different.

Well, you know, it's interesting. The first record wasn't really done in a proper studio. It was done in the shelter office. They had brought some gear out from Tulsa, set it up in an office. So it was just a room. Wow. And then a window and a little room that they made into a control room. And it was like a garage early. We were just all they were learning how to recorders. We were learning how to play and write.

Wow. And so when you'd get into a sterile studio, it can be a real challenge to keep the energy and spark going. Yeah, I bet it's a but that's part of the job. That's that's the hardest part of it. Yeah. You mentioned it. Yeah. And playing live. You love it. Oh I love playing live. Yeah. I'll never stop.

I can't believe how many dates you guys must have done on the road all the time. Yeah I think about that too. I don't know how you guys hit the notes. You hit them right. Every time. But I guess that's the job too, huh.

Well you love it. Yeah. Love something. You do it. Yeah. You know, I love playing and I just can't imagine stopping and I just I'm looking forward to this. You know, I don't care if there's two people there. I'm going to show up and play.

Yeah, it's a good thing about that. When you're in a band is like there may be two people out there, but you got all your guys over here you go. Yeah, we're going to play. Well, man, it was great talking to you, too. And I really hope you wish you all the success in the world. And, you know, when we play the Troubadour come to. Yes, yeah, I definitely will. You know, I love your music, I love a really good band you're doing yourself and I love all the shit you did with Tom.

And thanks for being here.

Thank you very much. Mike Campbell, nice guy, good guitar player, the dirty knob's reckless abandon is now available wherever you get your music. And don't forget, simply safe home security is having a huge holiday sale, 40 percent off any simply safe system and a free security camera. The system has an arsenal of sensors and cameras that protect every inch of your home. You can set it up yourself in about 30 minutes, get 40 percent off, simply safe.

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