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Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, people, ho, ho, ho, it's December and it's time to join Comedy Central for 31 more days of being home for the holidays hosted by Roy Wood Jr., Comedy Central's playing all your favorite movies, including Brothers, Wedding Crashers. We're the Millers, 50 First Dates and more. Plus, don't miss marathons of South Park, The Office and Schitt's Creek. So pour yourself a frothy cup of nog and get cozy because who are we kidding?


You're not leaving the house, let alone the couch. It's thirty one more days of being home for the holidays all month long on Comedy Central. Ho ho fucking ho. Let's do the show hos. Lock the gates.


All right, let's do this, how are you? What the fuck is what the fuck buddies? What the fuck? What's happening? Merry Christmas. Happy holidays. Happy the things. Hey, yeah. Have a good thing. Have a good thing. You guys open the things I'm doing nothing for Christmas.


Zero. The only thing I remembered about Christmas, generally speaking this time of year in the past was that everything quieted down and it felt a little desolate and lonely. Well, guess what? It's been almost a fuckin year that. So no difference really.


From where I'm sitting, I'll probably eat some bad things. That's what I enjoy. The bad things you put in your face. Merry Christmas. Oh, a nice present. Look, I don't look, I don't want to be edgy.


How's it going, man? I hope you're doing OK. I don't think that I express perhaps. Enough gratitude to you folks, to the people that listen to the people that reach out to me, I want to do that now. I want to do it right now. OK, I want to tell you that how deeply and I'm serious, I appreciate all the emails that have been sent to me in light of what I've been through this year, all the emails that that state, how much what I do makes a difference in people's lives.


I want to thank you for the presence, for the cards, for everything. I swear to fucking God people, the God I don't believe in. I swear to fucking Santa. He's not real either. I swear to fucking Satan. Well, that might I he he knows he knows where I live. But I'm tremendously grateful to all of you for being in my life.


And for reaching out to me in my time of profound sadness and for, you know, listening to this show on this Christmas Eve. And I really don't think I could have made it without you. I came here first. I've been here all along.


You know, Brendan and I have been making shows, new shows twice a week for over a decade and there was no stopping it no matter what I was going through, because in my time of need and pain, shame, panic, whatever it is in my time.


Of whatever I'm going through this year, like many of you, fear, panic, grief, sadness, I came here.


This is where I come. I come to this place. To me, this is a safe place. To me, this is my space. This is how I connect with myself and with with others. I connect. I find my way to me through you. Not tremendously healthy, maybe a bit codependent, perhaps a tad narcissistic. I don't know.


But this is where I express my truth. And struggle with it. And and you guys bear witness and I think many, much of the time it's entertaining, it's it's whatever it is to you.


Conex, I just want to thank you. In this holiday season for being there for me. You listeners. I feel like I should read a Whitman poem now. But I'm serious. Happy holidays. Be careful. I'm very happy today on the show. I have a fellow comedian, a guy I didn't know, I didn't know at all. I had never met.


Really, our paths didn't cross. He's a younger man than I. But I was sort of turned on to him because a couple of people that I know and respect, Stan, Hope and Krischer, were sort of like someone was edging me on to read this guy's book. Sam Talent is the fella's name.


He's a Denver comedian who wrote a real book, a novel called Running the Light about a Comic. But I think the reason I like this book, and I'll tell you about it, is that his guy, the guy he invented, Billy Ray Schaefer, was a road comic. He was a road comic. I'll speak to him as if he's real.


And this is the guy that Sam Talent invented in his book Running the Light that he self published, which I'll talk to him about. But this is a guy familiar to us comics who started out. In the system as it was established back in the day. There was a time before all comedy and before everything broke apart into. Boutique content providing portals where everybody could build their own audience from three to thousands. There was a time where you paid your dues a certain way, and I've talked about this, you guys have heard this.


You know, you came up through the clubs, you did your open mics, you did your opening spots. You did your feature spots. You did your road work as a feature, as an opener, and then as a headliner, a room by room, new headliner, old headliner, that was the system.


And then you did the road. And this guy. That Sam created Billy Ray Schaffer's a road comic, a road comic that had his moment and then drifted into oblivion of his own making end of the business, but always had, you know, a glimmer of respect. And it was a mythic presence in the stories of younger comics and other comics. The guy that did the crazy shit, the guy that was out of control, the guy that was always sort of like, did you hear about what fucking Billy Ray did?


I thought that was John Fox. No, it was Billy Ray. I thought that was always Joe Prader. No, it was Billy Ray. Wasn't that Teddy Bergeron know? It was Billy Ray. I thought that was Frankie. Best deal. Nope. Was Billy Ray. Was that Doug Stanhope? No, man. I'm telling you, I happened to Billy Ray Shafer. He invented that guy. The guy who's out there. Doing the shitty one nighters, doing the weekends at dead clubs, doing the drugs, doing the booze, breaking him, breaking himself down.


And as a protagonist, I was I was moved by the authenticity of it, that thankfully it was a road. That it was a path I didn't take, you don't usually choose that path that chooses you. You don't know which path you're going to be dragged down once the fucking door shuts behind you. Leading to things that you could have done with your life. You don't know what's going to be dragging you. Or how you're going to be dragged, this is a book about that, this is a book about stand up comedy in the real sense post 1980 stand up comedy, The Time When we all came up, I came up in the old style in the clubs.


All the comedy happened while I was in the middle of my self crushing behavior.


And, you know, it became an outward but many of us started out in the old system. And many of us knew a guy like the guy that Sam Talent invented, many of us were that guy for a while, a few guys my age anyway. But it was always a cautionary tale because we'd see them. Like, dude, where you been, what the fuck happened to you, we'd see them, you see them now. The living, breathing, cautionary tales, we you don't even want to ask too many questions.


What's up, man, still alive, huh? Still alive. They used to be the answer the drug warriors had back in the day when I started in the 80s. How's it going, man? Still alive, brother.


It was almost expected. That we push it. A lot of people didn't survive. But I found the book. To be. A beautiful rendering of a dark reality of of. Our profession of our craft, some call it an art of our hustle. Of our place in the entertainment business. So I asked Sam if he wanted to do the show, not only did he want to do the show, he he wanted to travel to do it. So we both kind of decided, OK, let's do it.


He's a compulsive testor, married to a doctor. I get tested every week or so. I think we'd both had tests within the last couple of days of doing this. And we sat down and did an old style man.


We did it old style. But it felt familiar to me, you know, how it is when I talk to comics and we were talking about a comic that he invented, that I knew that we all know of my generation. We all know this guy. We all know the Billy Ray Schaffer's. We know him by name, man.


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So Sam Talent is here. He came over, man. He came over and I loved it. I love the book. Because I I know the guy. I know the guy in that book. I spent time with that guy in a lot of different forms, and I've met that guy in several different versions, you know, the book is called Running the Light.


It's available now at Sam Talent, its talent with two L's, TALF, dot dotcom, SAM Talent, Dotcom.


I did read a chapter for his audio book of this undertaking and I got to meet him and talk to him because he came over and we're clean.


We're both clean, man. Clean of the bug, this is me and Sam Talent and I. So, buddy, I appreciate you driving all the way out here pretty that's commitment, man. Yeah, dude. Well, I don't know. You don't want to zoom WTF?


That would have been a dumb move. And like a lot of my friends have been here, so I was like, well, I'm going to go do that. It's like a pilgrimage. Honestly, dude, your podcast is like seminal, you know. Oh, thank you. And I'm not blowing smoke like that.


Remember being very, very destitute and afraid. Yeah. From doing standup. Yeah. And then like going home to my very bad apartment in Denver. Yeah. In Denver. Right there in the Queen City. Yeah. And like listening to your interviews with I listen to your interview with Norm. Yeah. Maybe 100 times it was all those on my phone at one point. Your interview with Norm and your interview with Killer Bees were all there was on my first one hit.


You better. You better. What is it going to save up and save up? Yeah, yeah. This is the man. He's an animal.


He was something man. And I was so thrilled. It was one of the things being the guy that that came up, you know, during that time. Yeah. When I came up, you know, you'd go down south and he'd see his pictures. His dumb pictures. Yeah. Killer bees. Right.


And if you like, who the fuck is that guy? No idea. And I don't really know that I knew who he was when I interviewed him other than I knew he was a guy. I don't know if he knows himself.


Yeah, that's true. He's pretty deep in it. But how how is it that I never met you? Did we meet?


We've never met. No, it's not weird. I don't think so, because by the time I was like I mean, in a position to maybe open for you.


Yeah, we're already doing theaters. Is that true? That's true. How long you been doing it? I've started in like twenty five doing improv classes and then did stand up and then took like a strange sabbatical to a commune in Ithaca, New York. What happened.


How'd you hit the wall. What, what caused that college man. I was not one for, for higher education and my best friend moved to Ithaca. So we were in a band together and I was like, well, I'm not doing anything worthwhile here, so I'll just go up there and we'll live in this weird anarchist commune and like, share a closet. And they had an abattoir out back that we could practice in at all times. So we just dove into the band real hard as an anarchist commune.


Is that a lot like there was a lot of piercings.


There's a lot of signing your rent check and blood like hypocrite on the memo line kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was pretty much one old horny dude who wanted to bang everyone. Right. Didn't matter. And he had a house somehow.


So so there was a plan. There was a guy. There was a guy. Yeah.


Bob Wolff young to Bob Wolff Young to his first name was Bob Wolff and his last name was like Carl Young but with a two the number two was legally in his name somehow.


And this guy somehow convinced how many people. Well, I mean, it fluctuated. There was promenading going out lot. A lot of coming and going man. Anything. Oh for sure. Yeah. Like he and my buddy Klay, we shared a closet there and I was like he was like, so who's going to take this room, who's going have the closet. They're like, we both want to split the closet. And his eyes lit up.


Right. He was just thinking about all the wild sex being too tall. We're going to have in there. It was too tall. My buddy Clayton, who was in the band with me, his name's tall. Well, he's like six, seven. Oh, he's a real stringbean of a man. What's that guy do now? He works on this mushroom farm that I have. You have a mushroom farm? Yeah. I started a mushroom farm in beginning covid for four healthy mushrooms or so Sibos.


Not psilocybin, just like gourmet mushrooms, red oyster, gourmet mushroom, but not like the kind the Ricci, not the Ricci mushrooms.


We have a couple of bags are in there, but it's mostly lions, man. And I like red oyster. I mean, that's a that's an eaten mushroom. Yeah. It tastes like like scallops. It's bizarre. Scallop taste in mushrooms. Yeah. Tastes like bad lobster. Oh it's pretty cool. And the oyster mushrooms. I know. Yeah. We don't have any of those. Oh do you have. They don't have any of those hands.


Something the end of the woods. Yeah. Yeah. We have a bag of those go into just a bag.


Doesn't have a big farm. It's not, it's building it it well it's a lot of good stuff's happened. My grandpa got like bored when he retired and he just built houses all over. So this is a house on my parent's property in the country. Yeah. Who we just put a bunch of mushroom stuff in there. So is it a moldy house now?


It's literally a mold. No, it's cleaned out. Yeah. We've got a cat to kill all the mice. It was a it was a real operation. And you have some mushroom beds. No, we do the bags.


So you have like a fruiting station and then you have scrutinization. Yeah. Where you get the the small. Yeah.


Mushrooms to Budden there. I don't know. Sure. My brother in law and our scientist are in there like every day. You're just a working partner. I was a angel investor if you will, because I had like twelve thousand dollars.


All right. So let's go back to the beginning now.


Look what I want to know, because I got this book you had sent a while back and I just sort of like I don't know what this is the interesting cover.


I can get a lot of books coming in, I'm sure. And then somebody on Twitter. Was it Bert or Bert?


Krischer, stand up.


Someone said someone mentioned it again and looked me in somehow. Right. And then I. Responded to you or did I respond to them or, you know, you put up a public tweet that was like sending the I got the book and I was like, oh, shit, this is it.


It's happening.


Then you did it. You know, I was like, the good I was manifesting stuff. Oh, you really were there in the mushroom house. You were manifesting the mushroom rolls is good for having some epiphanies.


Well, yeah. So Stannow got behind it real hard. Yeah. And he championed it and he was telling me to send it all types of people for stand up.


It's almost a cautionary tale. Oh yeah. If he wasn't, you know, a real outlaw it could have been him. Oh it's his memoir. Yeah. If things took a little you know, if they went sideways like the Aspen Comedy Festival in 1999, I remember that festival.


He would have been this guy when he was running around with the with the Santa hat on and causin naked. I don't know.


I was like 13 years old.


He used to he was it was one of them. It must have been that one. Was that the one where he kind of made a break. So. Right. I remember seeing him there. I didn't know who he was, but everyone was talking about him because he'd get naked by the end of his show. Yeah. And then he just he was just running around Aspen with the fucking Santa hat on. And I had immediate resentment of him because I had no idea what he what he did.


You thought he was a carny. Yeah. Was a or like I just was I was upset with the with the closing naked business. In my mind, I didn't see it, but I'm like, that's a prop act. Like he's not much of a prop. I've seen him nude, but he's turned into to something that gay for sure.


So he got behind it early on. Yeah. Michika shoveler.


He told me to send it to him because Michika like helped me. Who's the guy. He's a he's a like a troubadour singer songwriter who wrote a bunch of books and was like championed early by audible. So we're friends from like work on the road and stuff for yourself.


Published. Yeah. Yeah. See that's the thing that we should talk about. It's some at some point but like let me let me get some background. So you grew up in Denver.


I grew up in Elizabeth, Colorado, on the Eastern Plains.


And what is that. What is that like a town of seven. What is it was eight hundred people. OK, so it's small and a big family.


The town family town family's real close, but not that big. I got like five cousins. OK, fine. Grandma on both sides. Brother. Sister. Yeah, I got a sister little Sophie stuff as well.


Whether they farmers or what. No, my my mom worked for the Federal Reserve Bank and she would drive to Denver.


OK, so it's not far from Denver. It's like forty five minutes. It's a bedroom community, that's what it's called. And people work in Colorado Springs or Denver. They just have their kids there. Right. And they live out there. Yeah, right. My dad ran a bank, but he quit to raise me and my sister bank people.


Yeah. We come from money people, but not like investor people. Like many people who help manage money for others. Yeah.


And like my dad, you know, he worked at the small town bank. So sometimes people would pay Lean's with pigs and cattle and stuff like that.


He'd bring the pig home. My dad would have to be like, well, I don't know how many pigs is worth home, but we'll figure it out at briefly at a pig farm.


It reminds me of Jay Mascot's. His dad was a small town rural dentist. Yeah. And they, you know, they would pay and like potatoes and things. Yeah. Honey, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure.


Here's the money from the farm. Yeah. He's the man. He's great. Oh yeah. He's a sweet guy. He's been on here twice.


Yeah I know. I always like to, I know about it. Yeah. I'm right there and it's crazy to go from those days. Now you have like Glenn Close and Michael J. Fox.


The Zoom thing is has enabled me. Yeah. You know, I thought it was going to be a liability, but it's made it easier for larger stars to do this. Right. And their board. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. All right. So you're in Elizabeth. Yeah, near Denver. Mm hmm. But, you know, you don't seem like you don't seem like the standard mess of a person.


No, no, man, I have that. I was lucky. My parents ruled. My grandparents were there, my aunts and uncles, nice loving family for sure.


Because when I saw this book, I started reading them like this is not a this this is not about this guy.


No, man. Not at all. It couldn't be. I mean, it's the guy that I fear turning into. Well, we all do. We all do.


And there there are times for some of us where we're not sure if we are that guy or not. Oh, yeah, I worry about it a lot. You do? Well, because I work like I do forty five weekends a year.


I know, but you're not you know, you're either this guy. You're not.


No I'm not like the coke guy, but I'll definitely drink way too many light beers in Cincinnati after a bad show on Saturday at Go Bananas.


Yeah, and working. I'll be there. New Year's, everybody.


Hey, if you really are you doing shows now?


I haven't done one show since like June and those were all outdoor shows in Wyoming and South Dakota.


You haven't done any. I'm I'm sadly surprised at how little I'm compelled to go out and do outdoor shows or drive in shows. Well, they're very bad.


I know. It's like in my mind, I'm like I've worked my entire life to never have to do those again. Yeah. For some reason in my mind, I've done those before. Right. You have.


Yeah, for sure. Like, I just remember doing the San Francisco comedy competition at some fucking winery outdoors at my.


That's no place for stand up to happen. No, and also you're an intimate act. I know exactly in a way I could pull it off like I did when I did a couple of those oddball festivals. I could figure out which jokes I could do to land and have the experience, but not preferable. No, it was just something I needed to get out of the way. It's not good for anybody. No, I wanted to say I performed for 20000 people.


Not great.


Yeah. Also, these zoom shows, man. Yeah.


It turns out that I'm a live act, let's put it that way.


I've never tried him. I can't. No, you don't need to. If you made a dude ad man. Yeah. They're bleak. But do they do you have people on mute there to laugh.


At least they'll bring in like three designated lappers. Three. Yeah. But then they have to laugh at everything or they're blowing it.


Yeah. It's like a jooste room for like a JFK type. Wow. Just a room of three. Yeah. In separate rooms. Yeah.


And there's one guy who's definitely being paid to laugh. Oh no. Really was like yeah. Yeah. Or maybe just uncomfortable. It's a lot weighing on him.


I remember doing those late night shows where there's nine people and they always get like somebody who feels bad and so they've got to kind of do double time.


Yeah. They feel bad that they're there. Yeah. Yeah. And that you're there. Yeah. And then they came to see you Maria. But they also want to help for sure. Yeah. Yeah. We got this buddy.


What did you do in Elizabeth. I played sports and a bunch of drugs. You're a football guy. Yeah. Football wrestling. I played sports year round but football was the big one. What's your background? Are you American Indian? No, I'm a quarter Mexican. Quarter Mexican. Yeah, my grandma from Wagon Mound. So she's one of those weird cave Mexicans down there. Wow. Really? Yeah.


What is that like in another Spanish. Mexican, indigenous. Mexican.


Yeah. Like they didn't know they were in America until a census person showed up and told them. Yeah. And they were like, you get you get mail now. Yeah. Yeah. And they were like, what are you talking about. They lived in a cave. Use this money. Yeah. Yeah. And they tried to give them Maise. Yeah. Yeah. So she married this old hobo and over my grandpa and you know they were in a race for hobo.


He was like a what was it, somewhere in Missouri hobo. But he would just hop trains back and forth to Philadelphia and send money home. Oh wow.


He was because Denver's like Hobo Central. Yeah. Because I seventy and I twenty five and then the train back in the day. So you got the hobo grandfather and the cavewoman grandmother. Huh. That's pretty exciting. This turning into a pretty decent southwest story. Yeah. And then what about the other side.


They were, they were not as interesting. I mean they were cool. My grandpa was from Mississippi on my mom's side and then my grandma was from somewhere in Ohio and they ended up in Colorado.


Colorado is like a little is a mixed bag, isn't it?


Yeah. I mean, I grew up in New Mexico and, you know, you get up, we'd go to Durango and then go up, but you get up northern.


It's pretty white, incredibly white. And also Denver's a very segregated city. Yeah, it's Klan presence. Yeah.


There's something big Klan presence. Well, when it was founded, it was run by the Klan. Denver. Yeah. Like in the early 1990s.


I feel there's that sort of weird kind of like, are you just really healthy or Christian, you know, I guess the springs and stuff to tell them there it is.


But there is sort of this kind of like mountain bike, you know, always wearing, you know, some form of workout where I'm shorts year round. Yeah, yeah. And and you're sort of like, do you have a clarity? But is it the good kind or what are you running from.


Yeah, well I, I always go to like what do you what are you selling me. What do you why are you like there's an immediate sense of being I'm being condescended to by some spiritual bully.


It's always a lot of judgment. Yes. Yeah, but but there's a politeness to it.


There's I mean, it's a real thin veneer of politeness.


But I like Denver because it's like there's still like a cowboy presence to it. There's still something like downtown Denver.


I've never seen more fucked up people on a weekend night than maybe Glasgow is the only other place I've seen that much public drunkenness. But I think the altitude and they're legal.


We were the drunkest city in America. The healthiest city in America is when they say, I would like fucking Doug Benson did a four twenty show for my show. When I last, I was up there like they needed paramedics for two people.


And that was the afternoon. Did you shoot the Park Civic Center Park on twenty?


Is this, you know, ten thousand people and people are just dropping like flies. They'll take like a fifteen gallon bong rip. Yeah. And then just collapse and everyone starts clapping like that was the goal.


I think a lot of it too is people not being able to handle their edibles.


They don't know what they're getting into.


Yeah, well, my advice is always eat a little bit more than you were told to if you're a tourist. Yeah. Because if you're going to buy the ticket, take the right. Right, right. The ride might just be like the hotel room.


Yeah, it might be, you know, in the back of an ambulance you're going to panic. Yeah. Yeah. There's going to be panic and maybe some nausea. Mm. So when do you make it down to Denver.


Where what was what. So you played the football. Yeah. And then what. You go to a good college or. No I. I thought I was going to play football in college, but I didn't. So I went to Metro State University, which is a commuter school right downtown in Denver. And it wasn't for me. No, you know, what were you studying? What was the plan? Rhetoric and public address. Oh, so you kind of knew it was starting to come together?


Well, I wanted to do comedy, you know, like I was a little kid. I wanted to do really wide, you know, that because comedy was a really big deal.


And my family really. Yeah. Like like Fred Willard and, you know, John Candy and all the like stripes. Yeah. Ghostbusters is a very big deal. But standup. Well, no, I was going to do second city planners improv.


I want to improvise. So you learned about that as a kid because your dad, the a hipster, you knew he was hypersomnia hipster intellectual guy.


Yeah. But someone you could also crack a beer with until he got sober.




So he went far. He did it. He did it for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And he would he had like you know, Spin and Rolling Stone and all those magazines come to the house. There was one time when I. How old are you. I'm thirty three.


So your dad was like just a little older than me for sure. Yeah. He was born in fifty five, I'm born 63. So he's actually of the generation that saw some action in the sense that like, you know, bonafide hippie shit. Yeah, definitely.


That's what Elizabeth is. It was part of the brushfire rebellion where a bunch of hippies moved to the country and very much bought up the town so they could run the city council. Really? Yeah. And he was part of that. Well, he was from there, so he just kind of got, you know, grandfathered in. He got his hair out. And you're like, you're one of us now. My grandpa didn't stand for that shit.


Oh, no, no long hair. Oh, that was that's where he drew the line. Yeah. He would wear overalls without a shirt. That was as far as he was an old school. Alcoholism, no drugs.


I think he would smoke weed and they they well my mom and dad ate my mom's from Cleveland and she ate, you know, mushrooms and acid and stuff like that. So they did it.


Not when I was around so much.


When you before you were born. Yeah. They did the journey for sure. Yeah. They went deep to. Yeah, yeah. My mom was like around Kent State when all that shit was going down.


Oh man. She hated the cops. It was really cool. So was Joe Walsh and yeah, the guy from Mothersbaugh Mother's.


So Joe Walsh played my mom senior prom. Yeah. James gang. Really. Oh man.


And I think that she said that she had beef with Chrissie Hynde. I know that she said she hooked up with Drew Carey one time.


Well, that's not something I want to tell too many people. Good point.


Yeah. Namedropping people that come up with more rock and roll. But, Drew, I guess it's all right. Yeah, no, uh, but my dad, he was into all the cool music. Yeah. And like all the good books. And so that's where he got it.


Like kids, you know, like I read this book, like I'm reading my my thing is, is like as a guy that's written a couple memoir kind of books and, you know, a novel seems way out of my fucking wheelhouse. But like, one of my best friends is a novelist.


Yeah. Yeah. And I'm always like, you know, it takes a while for me to get through.


I have to be very well recommended fiction for me. So when I saw this, I'm like a comic, wrote a book. How good, you know, how good could this be? And itself published and it's unpublished, but the cover is pretty compelling.


Thanks, man. Richard Ingersoll. What my who's that? He's a kid that I grew up with. Oh, it's great.


I get to the point where my friend, the novelist Sam Lipsyte, his son, saw this book because I sent it to Sam. I had two copies. Oh, yeah. Because I found the one that you'd sent like a year ago. And I sent it to Sam, who's a great novelist, and his son. Science like, oh, that covers fire. That's what I got. That's what. Yeah, yeah. That's what I want.


Yeah. And the kid and this is a kid that don't read, they're trying to get him interested in shit. So Yeah. You got him, you got him halfway.


That's a big deal. But so I start reading it, I'm like oh my God, this is about us.


It's not, it's not even it's not that it's not a memoir. It doesn't feel like a memoir at all.


But it is about the world of comedy. No one's written about this, know about this this part of it. And this is a real part of it. Yeah. This guy is probably a couple of years older than me.


It feels like that generation where, you know, they were around for that eighties boom and a lot of them thought they were going places, but then they weren't. And then the boom sort of receded. And so they're with their own particular problems are left to scramble for a livelihood, you know, in one nighters.


Yeah, they weren't shipwrecked. Yeah.


But like, I knew this guy, like, I you know, and the way you sort of blend in real dudes at certain points where I'm like, this is you're talking you're going to put Rick Kearns in here and Rick Kearns is the guy. Yeah. I mean, if anyone's the guy, it's that guy. This is the man.


But but he's not quite even that guy because, you know, he did he escaped into radio for a while. Yeah.


You know, some of those dudes from the eighties, you know, figured out another way and he got into radio.


I guess he had some health issues. But like I did the San Francisco comedy competition with Curran's and I was driving him around. Oh, my God.


And he's a mind. Fuck you like he. I don't know, man. I don't know if I'm going to be able to do it.


And, you know, just like and he'd get you so far. Bummed out by the time he got the gig. All right, and I'm like, I'm not. And then he'd go up and he'd fucking brain fucking that guy.


So I've only known positive KERNES And now he's taken a dark turn, of course. Yeah. Like his daughter did stand up in Denver. And I'm friends with a lease in the Hunter, came out of retirement pretty much and would come to open mikes and just watch comedy. It's like, who's this old creep? Just, you know, drinking vodka straight.


And then, yeah, he was ended up being very helpful to me and a bunch of Denver comics because he loves comedy.


He's hilarious. He was one of the great unappreciated acts. He's definitely one of the Billy Ray Schaffer's of the world. Definitely. Who's the protagonist of your novel.


But yeah, Kearns's, like there's a couple of those guys that were like Kenny Rogers is another one out of he was in Boston when I was coming up, had that great live episode. Yeah. And Kenny was like fucking great.


He was so fucking funny. And Curran's too I Kernes I would see when I was a doorman at the companies were sometimes but then when I got to San Francisco and he came around but he just his, his delivery was great.


He's a rare thing. He's the rare kind of like cranky guy, the cranky guys that are funny and don't have to work for it.


That's a rare type. And they're like they should be cherished at all costs.


Yeah, because it just doesn't happen that often. There should be a statue of Kernes in front of comedy.


Where did you have fucking major health issues. Yeah, he's a bad boozehound. Yeah I know. Yeah. It's not fun. He's still that way. Yeah man.


He'll call me and be like I got a new bit and then he'll repeat it like three times in an hour and it's brutal.


I thought he was sober for a while.


He was sober for a while. No, the last time I saw him he's like I stole my whole act. Ron White. Yeah. Uh huh. He did like a quarter of a million. I think Ron wrote him a check at dinner. Yeah, yeah, yeah.


Ron writes a lot of checks for people. Yeah. Ron's the man I work with Ron a lot. Do you? He's cool. Yeah, he's great. We did a couple of shows at Parties Roadhouse in Texas, which is owned by Willie Nelson's old manager or road manager. Yeah. And Ron just ate mushrooms all day for the three days we were in this house together.


It's just a.. Yeah, it's like an old dude.


And then we'll have these moments of epiphany, like you're on his tour bus and he's surrounded by people who love him. Yeah. And then he'll just say shit like, I'm going to fucking die, man.


Nothing's going to save me. And you're like tripping. And you got a cheque in your pocket from him and he's rich. It's like, oh, Ron, it's funny. It's not fun. You don't know anything. You're like, OK, let's get Ron a towel.


Of course that's true. I sat next to him on an airplane and watched him like, ask for more butter. And I'm like, Dude, what are you doing?


Yeah, it's funny. He'll smoke cigars, but he'll drink like Michelob Ultra so he's doing better.


And his tequila. Yeah. I always baffling about the dude.


You get into the, you know, the spirits racket.


It's just merch. Yeah I know it's merch but he's got some weird ones. He just loves to start shit. Yeah. Ceramics thing in Mexico. Right. And he had like he's got the tequila. I'm surprised you didn't get a restaurant. Does he have a restaurant? I don't think so. I think he's a big and he eats a lot of beef jerky and nuts.


He's yeah. He's definitely amazing that he's alive for sure. And he's one of those guys that can fucking, you know, just get up there, do a show in a blackout like, you know, not even know he's on stage, dude. Right.


But crush. Yeah, crush, toga. And I don't know. I just think maybe your brain gets to a point where it's used to operating that way so he can go from being on the tour bus wearing sweatpants. Yeah. And then put his jacket on and he's on stage and just people can't get enough. It's crazy. It's something I you know, I kind of admire that.


Yeah, definitely. There's there's something to be admired about a guy who is just swimming in fucking garbage inside and can just go up there like a robot almost here. But kill I mean, that's something that Schaefer guy does in the book.


Kind of like the number of times you've figured out new ways to describe a hung over son sky, like the number of times you describe this guy, either through a hangover or through those moments of clarity.


Yeah, it was it was pretty good. You repeat yourself. I was surprised.


Me too. My dad was the editor, so he had a hand in it. He made sure like that. Yeah. Yeah. I think you might use this adjective in the last description of this guy, my friend Nathan Lunn's in the book.


Yeah. And I called him Tahseen like eight times and the first draft scene. And my dad was like, you got to figure out a new word to call Nathan fat, corpulent, you know, whatever.




So anyways, you college doesn't work out. Yeah. And then you go, wait, you're in a band. Yeah.


So I play drums. My dad played drums and I played a bunch of drums in high school with my buddy Clay who learned to play bass along to my drumming. Yeah. Then he was in Ithica so I was like. Fuck this, I'm going to go up there and just take LSD and be in this band and we toured a lot and it was it was a really important.


So he was and this is the commun times. Yeah. So how old are you?


Like 20. I was like 20.


I couldn't drink legally yet, but you guys were a band that toured a lot all the time. What was the name of the band? Red versus Black Records. Red versus black. No, but with the records, we know we would burn our own CDs and make our own merch and sell them. Yeah, no record. So you're in that you were in that loop. The Anarchy punk group.


We were just in a very sincere loop. But I mean, that's who came out to see. Where you opening for people or did you. No, no. I mean, we would go play we only played all eight shows in DIY venues. We wouldn't play in bars.


We weren't ever a hit. Right? No, I get it. But did you like. But you did it. We were all right. Yeah, we really were like we tried to be like black flag and Minutemen and. Right. Right, right. And we'd show up to these places where kids were wearing the uniform with, like, the grass patches on in their denim jacket. Yeah. And I'd be in, you know, basketball shorts and clay would be in a sleeveless denim shirt.


Yeah. And we would just tackle the stage and people would be like, what the fuck is this. Yeah. They didn't have the synapses yet in their head to deal with who we were. Right. And that was really cool. The freak people out by looking normal, right. Yeah.


Huh. Well, that was that sort of a tradition for a certain type of punk rocker. It's sort of like, Mike, what in that crew, dude. Mike what? I got tattoos of his all over me. Really. I love Mike. What? He changed my life. I met him once. I was at the Okano dude. Yeah. That's my whole life. I make all my own merch. I print my book. You know, it's all because of my quiet and debone.


But I met him once and I was downstairs in Mobile, Alabama, and he was upstairs and they told me, like Mike, what is playing upstairs? And I was supposed to do an hour. I did like fifteen minutes and then stand up. Yeah. And they were furious. And I was like, keep the money. I got to go watch Mike upstairs. And I totally just Mark David Chapman them. I just paced by the stage with my arms crossed like not blinking.


Yeah. With this dead I'd look on my face. And then afterward he was at his merch booth selling his merch that I went up to him and I was like, hey, I just I you know, you when he was like, I know, big fella.


I know. And he gave me a hug and then, like, ushered me out of the room. I definitely bummed out, like, what you did. I don't think so. But I'm a very sincere. Yeah. And also I'm huge. Yeah. So when those two things come together, people flip out. Yeah. No one's no one's comfortable. Yeah.


But they know he's, you know, he's proud of it. I know you're good hearted dude.




And also I'm sure he's dealt with me since nineteen eighty one but he's pretty like he's pretty present sort of like in a guy like you know he's got his own language. That guy. Yes dude. Like it's like when I interviewed him like he's speaking like what language. Yeah. And you've got to kind of figure it out.


He plays the thud staff. He's the man in the van with the base in his hand. Yeah. Yeah. I remember when my buddy Clay turned me on to the Minutemen in high school and we were like, listen to the damned and black flag and all those bands. We were like, we know what punk is because my dad would he played punk when I was growing up like the Pistols and write and play rock.


It was rock. But also when you're eight and your dad's doing the dishes to the Sex Pistols. Right.


You're like, this is the coolest man alive. Yeah, sure. But yeah, we found the missing man or the Minutemen and we were like, what have we been doing? Right. What is this? This is mutant rock. Yeah. And then we found lightning bolt and like, you know, all the John Dwyre bands and it was like, OK, yeah, we are incorrect. Yeah. We thought we had to figure it out. I mean, take this misfits patch off my leather jacket.


Right. And just we're going to make pilgrimages to like Providence in New York and stuff.


Yeah. Because these are the guys that are going out there. These are the astronauts, not the hacks. Right. And they're also sincere dudes. Yeah, for sure. I always really like when people are earnest in their art.


Well, those two want and we're very sincere. Yeah. And they're and they're very different and they're like very masculine without being disgusting about it. Right. And we have integrity. Right. And yeah. Because the integrity is that, you know, we're going to keep making this music for us. Yeah. We don't give a fuck. This is what we do. This is our shit.


And maybe we'll find the people who like it. Right. And hopefully they'll love it too. Right. Or we'll just, you know. Well, that's sort of what you try to do, a comedy, I think, to some people.


Anyway, it's it's a little trickier. Yeah. Because of, you know, what you're up against. Is that you just talking. Yeah.


So but, you know, that was sort of this that that was interesting about the book too. Is that like he had this respect, he had these chops, but you know, he could riff. Right. So that was his big gift, is that he could rip apart the audience. Was it is a double edged sword that, you know, when you can do that, you can get pretty fucking lazy. You stink of the road.


Yeah, but it depends on how happy you are with it. But sometimes those are the best moments. Like, if you like, I write on stage. I don't know how you do a hundred percent. So like when you have those moments delivered to you, you're like, oh my God, where'd that come from.


Yeah, because you're basically cornering yourself.


Then you let your ego have to back up what you've got your mouth has gotten you into. Sure. And if it's not going well, you've got to figure out instinctively how to get the laugh to get out of the discomfort.


Burn it down. Sure. Go down swinging. Yeah. Just like surrender. Like this isn't going to have. I tried really hard, look how sorry I am, look how many shirts I've taken off up here. But the old time guys would tell you, like, you know, don't acknowledge that. Like, I just don't buy that shit like I got Freddy. Roman got on my shit once about whining about bombing on me while I was doing it.


Like, I don't owe them my fucking heart. I I'll either blame them, blame myself. But if I can't get a laugh out of the humiliation, the fuck am I doing up here?


Well, that's why we were lucky in Denver, because we had guys like Rick and you know, Chuck Roy, who, if you were complaining at all, would be like, man, you don't know what pain is. And they'd tell you some horror story about being in a crab shack of New Hampshire, the Crab Shack in New Hampshire.


Well, just those gigs you guys had to do back in the day. Well, yeah, there's one nighters everywhere, you know that.


But that was also like the other thing about this book is that like some of those one nighters that, you know, low level corporate gigs are like gigs like, you know, bookers get you, you know, that they couldn't afford another act, you know, or colleges that they really wanted.


Dustin Diamond, who we have.


Right. Right. Yeah. He'll bring people and everyone knows who he is or shared screech. Yeah.


Or else they they just can't they they don't have the money. So you get pawned off on these things. And I was never right for any of those things. So I would do these gigs.


It was just like there's no way these odds are stacked against me. I'm not the happy guy. No, no. I don't like anyone in this room. I would never have anything to talk to. And I started doing those gigs where I came up. I'd go feature for these dudes and like Wyoming. So why did you wait?


So how'd that happen? So you get down with the band? Was that have that ended that that did that just fade or was it a dramatic thing?


Like, no, being clear, still tight, but you just decided not to pursue music? Well, no. So I always played music. But then there's a real lost period too, because I was eating acid a lot. Really? Yeah. In Denver.


No, like in Ithica. Well everywhere commun it was just acid thing. Yeah. It was cool. I would sell acid to those kids.


I never understood the guys like I could get used to acid for me it was like for me it was like the one, you know, the three or four times I did it in my life. It was a lot to build up to. Yeah. And then it was sort of like this is I don't know when this is going to end, but I don't know who I am anymore for sure. Yeah. So I never understood guys are like three times a week.


Well I don't think we knew the proper dosage either because like back in the day when you got mushrooms you had to eat the entire bag. Yeah. You wouldn't need a gram of mushrooms. I would eat the mushrooms. You knew you were going to come down.


Yeah, but I think mushrooms are much more they're much more spiritual for lack of a better term, whereas mushroom is like Erwan acid.


You're like, I am on drugs. Yeah, I am high on drugs. Right, right. Right. Yeah, yeah.


So I moved back to Denver and we still had the band and we started this DIY house, this punk house outhouse in Denver. Malthouse. Yeah, yeah. And we just had shows every night and it was just constant. Everyone in the house played music and you could just jam whenever you wanted at all hours of the day. Right. So it's really creative. Time must have been Smellie.


Oh for sure. It smelt like hate and just fear and poverty. Booze. Yes. Sweat cigarettes indoors. Nonstop sex blasting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The toilet. One toilet for 18 people. Oh man. Yeah. We had one rule there because everybody washing their clothes.


So people love this guy. Love to get nude. Yeah. And this girl that lived there was like I don't want you getting nude. So I had this big house meeting and we came to this rule that you can be nude, but you can't sit down. You can't be put your nude body on the furniture.


Oh, that was that's where he drew the line. That was right. Yeah. She was like, look, I don't mind your body. Yeah. I just don't want you sitting on the chair where I eat breakfast.


We were like Fairpoint squatter discussions. Yeah. And we are rent was like one hundred and twenty bucks and still I fired it together. Yeah. Yeah. So I just started doing stand up real hard. That one was the first open mic. So this is where you were living. You were living in the DIY place.


No. So I started standup in 2006 and I was a finalist in the comedy works contest in twenty seven and it was like this fourth time on stage but. Oh really. And then I moved to Ithaca and didn't do any standup. Oh I see. So you so you started. He did a few open mikes, entered the competition and did well.


Yeah. Everyone hated me because I was just like a natural. So your fourth time up you won. No, I bombed in the finals. Yeah. So it's three three rounds. First round crushed. Second round, crushed third round. Totally ate my ass because it was high pressure, not because I wasn't a comic, I was a fraud. Yeah. That was a naturally funny fat guy that people were like, oh well listen, you couldn't get away, you couldn't get away with it for fifteen.


When I had to go first two, it was seven minutes. Seven, just eight.


It was like yelling at the crowd.


Yeah, no chops, no chops, zero. I had improv chops but those aren't good in the club. Where'd you get those?


I did improv at the Bovon Metropolis Theater in Denver. I did their entire forty week thing and was on their house team and did their weekend shows. And what. The games. Yeah. Games and long form. I preferred long form.


Yeah. So you come out of that for like solid wood. He hated me. Yeah. He was like this guy doesn't. What he's doing, you dominated by that guy? No, he didn't like me forever because he's a he's a he's a dyed in the wool stand up, but he's also a smarty. Yeah. He went to, like, you know, Wesleyan or something.


I don't think he liked me when he met me. And I think he was featuring for me. Sounds like Adam. Yeah. I mean, I did not get the good feelings from him.


Yeah. I went to his 30th birthday party and I gave him a book. Yeah. And I was like I was like, no, I knew he loved Jim Thompson. Oh yeah. So I gave him, I think the killer inside me and he was like, cool. And he threw it in the trash. And I was like, all right, wow.


Yeah, that's a dick move. We're very good friends now.


I think he's also a guy that got humbled and got nicer. Well, yeah.


You said some personal tragedy. Yeah, terrible. But also, even before that, he was sweet, you know.


Yeah, but he started out as a writer. The guy who wrote didn't didn't write a column. Yeah. In the Westword in Denver. Yeah. But I read it religiously as a kid. Did you really.


Well like from like 18 onward I was like this rules. I can't wait to meet this guy. Yeah. And I wrote him and his crew Risk Deep Productions, a sincere letter about how I really like your shows. And I, I just want to work with you guys. And I been Kronenburg told me they like made fun of it and put it on the wall. So I moved back to Denver and started doing standup real hard after the acid rock anarchy punk thing.


And I was still in bands and eating drugs and living in this house. But I was also out every night doing stand up in Denver.


So what were the options as a as a mycar? Well, I hosted the Lions Lair and the Squire Alliance where I feel like I've been there, have I?


And I don't know. It's the punk rock bar in Denver. Probably not. Yeah. Yeah. So you have to stand up right there. Yeah. I hosted Monday, Tuesdays and Wednesdays. He got up every night of the week. Oh. Someone told me, you know, you're not on stage. Someone else is getting better than you.


And I'm hypercompetitive. Which fucking animal told you that, T.J. Miller. OK, yeah. There you go.


That's why I didn't wanna bring it up and I'm glad it's OK. He's like, you know, anyway, TJ's got in trouble is all. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't either I Ebright I don't even remember what it is.


I just I know you had a there's a woman problem and then he had a brain problem and then like I had an aneurysm in like 2008.


Yeah. And now he thinks he's dead. He thinks this is heaven and that he's dead.


Yes. He, I, he wore me out. Well he was very generous and like sweet to me early on. Yeah. That's nice. And he was like important to the kind of comedy that the Chicago guy who's from Denver. Oh. But he didn't come up in Chicago. Yeah. Uh huh. OK, so he gave you a work ethic.


Well, he just told me, like, you know, you're not going to be as funny as other people if you take nights off. Right. So I got up. I got up, I think in 2011. I got up three hundred and thirty five nights that year. Wow. You count them. Yeah. Then I still count them. That's weird. I don't count them anymore. He still does. But then sometimes people would say I did it, I did a show every night of the year and I just be furious in my room.


Like Where did you get up on Christmas. Yeah. Where did you get up on Easter? You come here. Yeah. You're lying. Exaggerating.


Yeah. Well, you know, it's like Rollins uses the same mike, like he knows exactly like he has mikes that he knows he's talked through for how many days he's used that Mike. Yeah. He's like it's magical shit, you know.


All right. So all right. So you're getting you're getting your hours in and then what do you just build up to what feature? And no, I want didn't want to do that.


So I would go on the road and I'd like go to New Orleans for a week and do every open mike. And then I just crush, like, fucking raisin hell.


And then how much time do you have where you cheated? No, I had like a half hour, so I was featuring it. One nighters like terrible one. I mean, yeah, but I didn't want that life of doing those one nighters. And I also wanted to travel and I didn't have any money. So I was like, I'll just go stay on this couch. The person I met in New Orleans or Boston or Austin and from the bad days.


No, I mean sometimes the band days but also people come through Denver, right. Comics. Yeah. And then once you start killing these open mikes, they're like, hey, if you're ever in town on Wednesday, I have a show that pays fifty bucks and you can close it.


So you came up in the age of the of the comic produced show.


Yes. Hundred percent. Yeah. Like I do work some clubs but I mostly work comic produce shows and you know. Right. Alt rooms and stuff. Yeah.


Those weren't around when me and Billy Ray Schaefer were starting out. I don't think he would care to do an that room. No he wouldn't even he would, he would be like what the fuck is that. Yeah. What do you mean we don't get paid. He doesn't know what a podcast is. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.


And I would just do these shows and you know, forty five weekends a year to be somewhere in Omaha, Seattle and make three hundred bucks a weekend.


And so that was the whole circuit was in a club circuit. Not at all. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah.


Because I, I remember that when I started flailing and losing any hope of, of doing comedy in some ways I remember me and Andy can learn Eugene Mirman one on a tour of the smaller rock venues and it always felt weird to me. Do you know what I mean? Because I am essentially came up as a. Comic, yeah, my my mistake was not understanding it was a business and that you had to be nice to club owners and you had to keep going back to the same places to build an audience.


I never quite got that.


I got that. But I did it just the same way I learned from punk rock, which is you go and you play for eight people and then they bring a friend and you have 16 and you might have 30 and then be a respected guy.


People have good things to say about your comedy for sure. I've watch. It's funny.


Thanks, man. Yeah, yeah. I finally got Jafo last year after auditioning six times and man did I have a chip on my shoulder up there. Did you. It's crazy. Yeah. Oh you were like, you know, like finally. Fuck it Roy. Yeah it was I was up there and people would be like new faces. Yeah. I was unwrapped new faces and I'd meet managers and agents and they'd be like, we met in L.A. like six years ago when I was like a you know, an assistant to an agent.


Right. What are you doing up here as a new face? And I'm like, motherfucker, I don't know. Yeah. All right. I should have been here six years ago. Yeah. I would just walk around a people and I'd be like, Hi, I'm Sam Talent. Who are you with? And they'd be like, CIA like, all right. Yeah. But then when they talk to you and they're like, what do you got?


What are you working on? And I say, I have a novel. Yeah.


They couldn't walk away faster. Really. Oh yeah. They don't want a novel. They want know you got a YouTube series. That's the thing about managers and agents, which I don't have, is that they want you to do all the work now and then they'll just come in and swoop you up and they always do, do they?


You know, they don't like that's the big myth that they're like, you know, I'm going to make you a star. What is it like they wait around, they'll keep you in the in the in the pocket. Yeah, yeah. Until like maybe something happens and they're like, oh, here we go. Right, let's do it.


Look, I'm going to get you into captivity comedy. And it's like I already had a line that can do capacity.


Yeah. I like you. I know Rich Miller. I know. I already know that guy. Yeah I remember it.


JFK, Pete Holmes was hosting and he was like, what kind of intro do you want? And I was like, can you tell him about penguins in Cedar Rapids next weekend? Did he say I played there? No, he just he laughed so hard and he was like, You're legit.


And I was like, Thank you, Pete Holmes.


Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great. Pete Holmes gave you validated. Yeah, well, that's nice. And they go from Montreal. The issue was I was hanging out with too many Canadian comedians in Montreal. I think that they thought I was Canadian. Oh, really? Yeah.


I don't I don't think that like I don't think it's weird that almost everybody up there is a known quantity already now. Yeah. And it's really just one of these sort of weeks of partying for people on that side of the business. Yeah. They don't really give a fuck, nor can they really do anything. Really.


I don't think I had a widget agent most of my career. And, you know, I finally fired my powerful manager when he played like one of the first WTF since, like, I don't get it.


I'm like, I can't, you know, and I, I don't know, dude. It's like the whole it's all what am I trying to say?


It's. You figure out what you really want out of it, and then you've got to just get it. No one's going to do anything for you. You seem to know that.


I do know that now after being close to the industry, I know it 100 percent.


Well, when you started thinking about writing this book, though, how long ago was that?


My wife did her first two years of med school in Las Vegas. Yeah, in twenty sixteen. Right. And I wrote it when I was there over the course of like a year.


But, you know, like where did you what experiences were you drawing from those one nighters. I mean primarily.


Yeah. And just all the guys who opened for me, the horror stories you had to listen to while you're driving fucking tired old headliners places.


Yeah. And then also just the horror stories that I would accumulate by doing these shows. Yeah. Like what. Like what are the ones you remember like that dark shit bingo story from that book. Yeah. That's happened. That was 100 percent true story. I remember watching this big fat carnie put his duck back in the cage and I knew what I got paid and he was just over there counting money and I really wanted to slit his throat.


That was like when I was reading them, like, this is one. There's no way. Oh, yeah, there's no way the duck should bingo story can be trippin.


Man, where did that happen? Happened in Greeley, Colorado. Wow. Yeah. That was the one I thought you made up.


No, dude, that was legit. All these shows I've done. Yeah. For sure. You don't fucking hit me though was the weird couple that because I met that couple in Texas. Yeah. What is it. Yeah. Florida tax. The one I met was in San Antonio. They both come up to you like. So what do you got going. I'm like, I'm not fucking your wife. I'm not.


That's what they want to. I know every time I know but. But you're hotter than me, dude. What do you want to watch me plow your wife? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, but like I like when I read that I'm like, this is like real and I don't know why they pick comics.


I don't know, maybe they just I don't know what it is.


I think they think that we're debauched, we're debauched and broken and we're lonely and we'll probably be up for it. Yeah, we're like there's almost predatory. Yeah. What's he going to be doing by himself?


And then they're like, don't put this in your act. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like licking their lips. Yeah. Don't worry. I don't want anyone to know about that.


Yeah. In that poor guy, the poor fake guy, Billy Ray Schaefer, it's all fucked up and he goes back and there's almost a moment there when he's fucking kicking that guy's I take it easy.


Yeah. It's uncalled for. This guy took you in and fed you top shelf. Jim. Yeah. Yeah. He gave you his wife and he didn't even I don't even think it suggested, like, I don't know how you see it, but they didn't roll him. He left it, left his wallet.


Fucking idiot. Yeah, definitely. But I've also been the guy who has his wallet and he lost it. And then he was homicidal until you remember that you left it at your friend's house.


But just all the you know his. Yeah, man.


Like when I read it, I really think that not enough can be said about the the the part the world of comedy it captures, because if you're in it like you were in it and like I was in it, like Stan Hope was in it.


Guys, you came up my generation guys, you opened four and some of the experiences you had, I mean, this is what fucking comedy looks like.


Hmm. Yeah. This is what it was when, you know, there were all those guys out there in the 80s. Were you like, I don't know what happened to that guy. You know, I don't know. You know, and guys, you like Frankie Bestival, who you've heard me talk about, he was like one of these guys. There were literally guys on the road that were they didn't Frankie Bascule did not want his name in the paper or on the marquee because he owed back taxes in your spouse, you know, child support.


Yeah. So he didn't want to be known where he was.


That's crazy. And he's a comic. Yeah, he's on stage publicly. Right. He's the guy that got nailed when somebody heard him on a radio show. The IRS went and got him because he was on a morning radio show or an ex-wife.


I can't remember which, but but this whole world of road comedy and what it kind of became and this is a guy who did The Tonight Show with all the promise in the world. I like the ex cantrip. I mean, I like the fact that he was in jail. I think that's one of those things where it really rang true to me. Like when, you know, when you hear about a comic, you don't you don't know about that guy.


Yeah. What about he's in fucking jail, man. And then he started doing comedy and jail like no shit like Diaz.


Right. Did he do time. Oh yeah. For like kidnapping.


I must have talked to him about that. I can't quite remember.


Right. And he was in Denver like, no, I know it's all his whole story is in Denver, all the cocaine stories. I just I always love the fact that you were surrounded by, like, freaks and scumbags and mutants.


And they're just it's not just that's what people don't get about, about that era of comedy. It's not just like people who didn't fit in or nerds or, you know, like, you know, just social oddballs. Some of these dudes are fucking criminals. You couldn't do anything else, nothing else.


It was like people who get into preaching, like it's either that or prison. What's your fucking hustle like?


So many of these guys were just doing it to live and they figured it out.


And it's a romantic lifestyle. You're somewhere every night, somewhere new. Is it, though? I really find the romance in stand up.


I like it took me years to, like, be happy to be away from my home. Yeah. Like, I'm like I don't have. I just going to be in this hotel room. It's great, yeah, but it used to be I'd get out there not unlike this guy, Billy Ray Shaver, where.


Yeah, I mean, there's a romance to it, but like there it's also this weird type of loneliness that happens when you're staying in that fucking, you know, hotel, the cheap hotel in the part of town where you can't fucking go anywhere. You're not near anything or worse. You're like it's connected to a mall.


But there's a type of loneliness that is, you know, like above it's like beyond good and evil.


Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean.


It's a high lonesome and yeah. You kind of turn into like Colonel Kurtz by the end of the weekend.


Yeah. But it's only a week. And that's the weird thing is like as soon as you get to that hotel, you're like, where do I go to be bad a whore.


Yeah. Yeah. So fucking it's it's so weird and dumb. Yeah. And also like it's really hard.


I'm sure everyone talks about it where you get off stage after being the best thing to happen to that room. Yeah. And then what are you going to do with all that adrenaline.


The worst that you have.


Like once I got sober I was just like fucking ice cream and candy. Yeah. Just to load up on shit and bring it to the room.


You should be a mess. You should be a big fat pig. I didn't like it. I never felt good about it. But like there it's like you don't know what to do and you do want to do something and that's how you get into trouble, you know, like and that's how I like this guy with the cocaine. Like, I just when I read this, I just remember not being able to sleep well because you can't drink yourself down from cocaine.


The cocaine is going to always out speed everything else. So unless you've got downers, you're fucked.


And like when I was reading this shit, I was like, oh, that morning thing, that's terrible. And you got to start drinking again. Like, he really reminded me of that dude in money, which is a good thing where you're sort of like, can he live like this?


He's the guy. And money was like rich, you know. Right.


But like, you know, you start to realize like, oh, this is the device. This guy is the all the bad appetite's, definitely. But this guy, Billy Ray Schaefer, is, you know, a guy you know. Yeah, I know this guy well.


Every comic reads the book and they're like, hey, is this about X? And someone I've never heard of. If they listed, who have people asked you about? Why don't you baccelli comes up a lot. I don't know that guy. Oh, my God. That's what he was. He was like one of the king. Is he dead? No. Oh, he's Holleman somehow. Yeah, he's a medical miracle. Wow. And he was in Denver, but he worked the road all the time.


And a lot of people would be like, this happened to Baxley's.


Did you know that story? I'm like, no, no. He fell off a bar stool and broke his nose open.


That that was going to. Well, see, you got one to know.


Tamaro That's what got him sober. He fell off a stool and broke his face and realized it was time to quit. No, the story I heard about the guy with the bloody nose on stage. Yeah, that's either I've heard it.


John Fox was who I heard about all these years later to Prader to. Yeah. When the nose starts bleeding. Right. Yeah.


Don't who doesn't even party anymore. I heard that was John Fox. I thought it was Elijo. I think it happened to both of them.


You heard that story of Alley Joe where he was underneath the blanket and it caught on fire. I don't know that he got too big and fat to get up the stairs. So he would just sit on stage underneath the sheet and he would smoke cigarettes under there. Yeah. And one time he, like, lit the shit on fire and it was just revealed in a ball of flame that he was on stage the entire time when he's like, oh yeah.


With the canes. Yeah. Hobbling Holly, hobbling Ali, Joe Prader, dragging other people's jokes from town to town. Yeah.


Everyone in Denver has stories about Joe taking their jokes. Where did he start. They're no, but he just I think he came through a lot because that was weird because that's a long time ago.


Dude, there's nowhere to go between Chicago and L.A. It's Denver, right, where it's like Omaha or Salt Lake City. But but Denver, sort of a real city. Yeah. And John Fox was another guy.


Jeff Boy, I've only heard stories about him. The manager thing. Yeah, the manager. Right. That yeah.


Don't every man is on the road because John Fox is well into a jar.


Mayonnaise. I was going to be vulgar about it. Yeah. But there's like I just remember like what he's I just remember we're at a table, we're doing drugs.


It was like a bunch of people. But I think it was I think it was a Kinnison night.


And for some reason John was there. And we're all talking about the road and he's like, you know, and you know how you start comparing stories.


But there's always the one story like what you're like, oh, my God. Yeah. And John Fox. Right. You know, it was like after a few stories, like, yeah, man, you know, when you're on the road and you got a hairbrush stuck up your ass and you're jerking off and you're like, God, I hope I don't die like this.


And just a moment where everyone's like, what it's about, all right, you win, you win. But then next time you're on the road, you have you put a hairbrush up your ass. What kind of brush? Yeah. Yeah. How does that fit into. Is that a good thing? When the rubber hand how much coke do you got to beyond.


Enjoy a hairbrush up your ass. But yeah. Yeah those guys.


But who are the other cats. I mean I know that that. No. Form plays a part in the book, as Norm and I remember, Rick, I don't know if I knew any of the other Denver guys that were actual real guys. Who were they like?


Kevin O'Brien and Nathan Lunder or friends of mine? I don't know those guys. They're my generation of who they were in the dressing room with, Norm. Yeah, but they're sort of like oral history, like where you actually have. Right. Comics telling stories.


Yeah, I had like Philip Halsall in Norway. I met that that guy, you know, you probably Rafil. Yeah. Hippie man's in there. John Nova said, who is the best comic to come out of Denver? Really? Yeah. And people like I remember I one time I was mean to Bobcat Goldthwait because he was like hippie man opened for him the night before when Bobcat came back and I was having lunch with him and Caitlin Gill. And he was like, yeah.


And it's like Old Road open for me, this guy, hippie man. And it's like, first of all, he's the king and queen of all. Your name is Bobcat Goldthwait. You're going to be mad at a guy for having a nickname.


And Caitlin had to like she like grabbed my leg under the table and was like, well, you know, Bobbie, you know, he gets a little snotty. He's been great ever since. Yeah, I remember getting my cockles up. Don't talk shit about hippie man.


Well, I think it's a weird thing that, like, you know, it's definitely there's something about those old timers that, you know, like it's not about their material after a certain point.


Yeah. It's about their their perseverance and their sort of humility from, you know, just decades of humiliation that, you know, you got to respect the the legend is what it is also.


But Nova said he writes new stuff all the time. Yeah. You know, yeah. Like, I don't know. Look, I think it's very difficult.


Like when people who do comedy, when I meet young people, I'm like, well, you know, there's only a handful of guys you're going to make a real living, right. Doing the standup. So if you've got a knack for writing shit, figure out a way that, you know, you can continue to work or just get really good at Tick-Tock, I doesn't matter.


I don't even know what that is like. There's some dudes that I started with that. Well, I mean, I know what it is, but I don't know and I'm not on it. Yeah, but there's some news.


I started with their big show runners, like they're big writers to get you know, they wanted the guy on the other side of it. Yeah. You got to be a real irresponsible, self-involved fuck to decide.


Like, I'm just going to do the standup. This is what's real. This is pure. It's me. Me too, man.


I'm so glad I had this book or else I'd be broke right now because I made all my money off stand up.


Yeah. I couldn't like I. Well, I'm fucking proud of you for writing the goddamn book like a real novel. Thank you. Jesus Christ.


Like, I mean, I've what I just I couldn't write for other people. I couldn't see, you know, like now I don't even like to collaborate.


That'll happen later.


I'm bad at that. Yeah. How about a collaboration. But now like, you know, I'm doing the acting thing here and there and it's like, you know, I don't know. You pivoted. It worked out. Ah, I pivoted because like something like some weird cosmic timing finally worked out. Yeah. The desperation of talking to my peers. That's right. So this book you wrote, how long?


Like probably a year. I wrote one hundred and fifty words of a different thing. And then the first chapter of this book was part of that. And then I was like, this shit's bad. I'm going to follow this guy around and then just cranked him out.


Well, I like that, you know, and I don't think it's just because I'm a comic that, you know, it's not so much you're rooting for him, but you're like, wow, how far is this going to go?


You know, where does this go?


And that the details about who he was, you know, in terms of these kind of guys, the ex-wife, the you know, the sort of selfishness, the kids that they don't know, like all of that stuff seemed it all ring very sort of true in the psychology of the characters seemed to hold up.


I know it wasn't an end. Well, no.


Yeah. I don't think anyone got their fingers crossed. They also don't like books that end happy. No, I like this.


Remind me of like Bruce Wagner. If you ever read any Bruce Wilkos book. Oh, my God. The ending of his first book, Force Majeure. Jesus Christ.


You would like that shit, man. I would. I love bleak novels.


Bruce Wagner's there's there's a few there's a Hollywood trilogy. But Christmas, you're the first one.


Yeah. He's got a little complicated. He's a real smarty pants.


But but there's like when a guy talks about a book and they go, yeah, well it's like reading Larry Brown. It's like this guy just risked his life for four hundred dollars. I love that shit.


And you gave me this book, the Cormac McCarthy book, and I got to read it.


It's the best book in the English language, I think. Wow. At least in the American canon. OK, I think it's tops and I read Moby Dick and this is better.


Wow. So who are you? So he's one of your guys, Cormac McCarthy and Denis Johnson.


And Simon Jones. Yeah, cool.


I read I read that book and Angels and this book, The Dig, by signing Jones over and over again while I was writing my book is to know what a good novel sounded like.


But you didn't find yourself glomming. Oh dude. For sure. Yeah, I didn't quite notice. I didn't I don't know those writers. I wouldn't know.


Well, there's a part in there where I start using Colon's instead of periods. Yeah.


Because I was reading Graham Greene, I was reading Brighton Rock and I was like, damn, he uses Colon's really cool. I just like the consistency of the character and where you took them, like it really kind of like go somewhere and you know, there's like just the singing, it's like.


That fucking vibe of not anybody needs to know this or that, you know, it's just me or that I'm only going to relate to this, but that that that feeling of sitting around when everything everything is done, just thinking like it's going to turn around.


If I could just get some book, if you're on blow as 230 and like, this is just about to happen. Yeah. And there are no options but real sad ones. Yeah. Yeah.


What are you going to do and all that shit. What was that weirdo. The guy rolled him that based on a real guy.


So it's based on a guy in Denver and that he gets rolled right behind Malthouse in Denver and five year plays. Yeah. That old house I lived in and that guy is he was just a creep, used to hang out at my house and like, smoke speed. He would steal all of our light bulbs and smoke speed out of them. Yeah, like with the hat.


What was he wearing in the book? I can't remember. He's wearing like a trench coat. Right, right. But he was a character. Mm hmm. Creepy character. Yeah.


No good. Yeah. This guy would wear fingerless gloves and a leather cowboy hat. Right. That's what. Yeah. Yeah, that's the detail.


And in Paw Paw, Billy Ray was too fucked up just looking for a party man. That's the fucking problem. Is that good time, Charlie. So tell me about the.


Because I guess self publishing is a mixed bag.


Oh, yeah, it's very shameful. No, it's not shameful.


I think it is. I was deeply ashamed to have to self publish this book. It's my biggest failure, I think. I mean, Mishka got me an agent who was very powerful in memoirs and he loved the book. And yet this guy bird level, and he loved the book and he sent it off to people and they were like, who's going to read this book? And I was like, well, fans of Stand Up will probably read this book.


And, you know, most podcasts are hosted by standups. Right? I could probably get on some podcasts and promote it. Yeah. And they were like, we're not going to take a chance on your first novel.


Take a Chance. I mean, they don't give you any money for your first novel anyways. Now taking a chance. And thank God I didn't publish naturally because. Yeah, because they achieved wealth.


Oh good. Yeah. Well I mean the thing about publishing is that like then it comes out and then you've got to rely on a goddamn, you know, Publishers Weekly.


Well no, but you know, there's that in the Kirchen character, Kirkland or whatever it is, Kirkus. Kirkus Reviews.


Yeah, but but but the in-house publicist who doesn't want to be doing that job. No. And a lame ass book tour that, you know, is not going to really sell books. No.


You know, so wait, so so you sell publisher. How do you how do you do that?


Because it says, you know, the the too big to fail press. Yeah. That's just something you created.


That's my publishing company, which is just what I get my checks through now. Oh so OK. So you set up an LLC s corp. Oh an escort. My father. OK, he starts cooking the books. Oh good.


So to self publish walk me through the steps of that. So you got the full book. It's edited.


You're ready to go. Yeah. And then. I just did it through Amazon. Amazon, CDPR, you can upload a book to that and pick up how do you oh, really pick out a cover? Well, I had the cover design by OK, and they just run it off per order. Yeah. It's like, you know, how much do they charge. They charge like five dollars a book.


Yeah. And then I order them in lots and then people buy them off my website at some talent dotcom and then I'm able to, I ship and package everything myself, but they can also get them on Amazon.


They shouldn't.


If you're a listener and you want this book, go ahead and get it at Sam Talent Dotcom. OK, OK. Because that Amazon doesn't give you a lot of money. I see. Yeah. So there's a ceiling to that. So Amazon gives me like I think six dollars a book. And if you buy off my website I make I think 17 oh. After shipping and writing what other merch you get. I got shirts on there. I got sweatshirts, I got beanies.


You can also go to C0 fungus dotcom and get some mushrooms from us. Oh yes.


You're moving the fresh mushrooms to the gourmet fresh mushrooms and you know you can get lensman is like what's that called when you take it to feel better. Oh I don't know. What do you mean. You know like GNC not stimulants supplements supplement. Yeah they're a supplement. The Havelange main supplements. Yeah. And then also we'll send you a fruiting block of mushrooms and you can put in your kitchen and cut it open and your mushrooms. All right.


So where's the stand up right now? I'm an author now, dude. I'm done with that racket. You lived the life through Billy Ray Schaefer. I, like, hung up the hat. Yeah. Dude, I've listened to your show since you were doing like Pepitone at the end of every episode. Oh, yeah. You know, like way back in the day. Yeah. And I'm always like, yeah, dude, I got to get on marein.


Like this is a big goal. Yeah. This feels good. Yeah. But to be on here as an author first in a comic second. Yeah. Is totally a merit experience. I'm like fuck man. I knew I had to just write a great book. I would have done it a long time ago to get out here.


Well, I mean. I mean, I would have found you eventually. I think, you know, I don't know. I'm just kidding, man. It's an honor for me.


Oh, I feel like like there's a generation of comics who. I don't know. Yeah. You know, and it's like I wish I did. I felt like there was a time where I knew everybody. Yeah. But that's a long time ago and I didn't know everybody.


Like, I don't know who Troy is, you know, but I it's just a generational thing. But but no one's doing much comedy now.


It's weird though man. I don't.


But how do you feel about because like I'm wrestling with a thing now where like I wonder if I'm done.


Yeah, I think a lot of people are because like but also not because of the covid, because my last special like that's the best I can do. Yeah. And like I'm going to go from I can come from a different place. I think I'm changing in certain ways, but I'm not I'm not able to work through anything on stage. But maybe that's making my heart bigger because I'm not sure that getting up on stage four nights a week.


Yeah, I think it's it's probably emotionally, psychologically more stifling than it is sort of growing.


Yeah, I don't know.


Well, also, we've had a whole bunch of time to like have introspection that was forced on us by not being out there and giving yourself away every night. Right. Because I, I don't know any other life besides being gone three nights a week for four. But I'm loving it. Dude, I like being with my wife, sleeping in our same bed. Yeah. Going swimming, riding my bike. Like getting healthy. Having a life. Yeah.


Having a legitimate life without without like that. Well here's the thing. And I talked about was like like I don't know once you win it. Yeah. So I can relax because so much of it is sort of like, well fuck he's out there. I mean I got there. I got to fuck. Right.


Yeah. That kind of weird. I'm hyper competitive. I know exactly what you're talking about here. Like you'll see your friend, he'll be like, oh, Shane Torres's at this club but I can't get in there. Fucking Sean Payton got ask me what the fuck.


Yeah. Come on out of that for like a decade.


Yeah. I know about your acne issues. That rules here back though, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's OK, man. Take a breath, Mark. You got it.


It was also for you on your Instagram live. You were talking about the book and I was like, oh, this rules. And then you were like, yeah, same talent.


I don't know if he gives a shit about my comedy. I was like, come on, you mentioned Stan Hope and great.


Yeah. Talent security still. And that's that's the thing with all of us. I'm not in the book. I make the book.


I know, but but it's weird how that kind of stuff sticks.


But yeah, the repreve has been kind of interesting. Mm hmm. But then I got on those Instagram lines to get that juice. You know, I still want that juice like of like it was more it's not about the audience.


It's about the thinking on your feet thing. Yeah, that's I think that's what I miss more than anything else, is the immediacy of having to, like, do it. Yeah.


You know, and your body was getting some kind of drug response from it, I guess.


Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But it was just like I'd gotten so. Yeah. I didn't get. Truly comfortable on stage until, you know, within this last decade, within the last, you know, I mean, I was faking fearlessness forever and then at some point it gave way to real kind of like, oh, I live up here, but it's not it wasn't my whole career.


So, like, within the last eight years. Oh, yeah, man. I mean, I'm going the same way where I write on stage and I can't write a joke. I have to improvise. Right. And it's better that way. Yeah.


It's got to be a lot of stress on our hearts, dude. Yeah. You think. I mean, just think about that stress every night, that stress response that we're giving our bodies sometimes.


I know. But like usually when you get that first when when you OK, so when you work like that you've got the idea. So yeah, you put the idea and usually that's enough to keep you going with it. So you're getting a laugh on the idea and then you like let's see how that conversation unfolds. So after a certain point, it's not as much of a strain on your heart because you're just trying to build on this fucking idea, right?


Yeah, and that's sort of exciting.


But also, I'm and I always want to fucking crush dude, like, oh, I need to kill when I'm on stage. Right. And if I'm not crushing, I'm doing everything I can to crush or I'm burning the house with me. I'm going down in a ball of flames. Yeah.


I don't know. I think I stopped. Thinking about crushing and was more like concern with honest laughter, like, you know, because there's there's a piece you have to maintain to crush. Yeah, definitely.


And like, I could see how that could be a strain, whereas, like, I just like to be in my face. I don't want to. I'm not going to.


I used to be that way. I kind of got hit. I got hit. I got crank it up. I got to put this one in there. I'm going to lose them. And like so I got to a point where I just sort of like my pace is good enough in this shit. Funny. I know I'm funny. So I want, I want to be organic. I don't want to do the trick. I don't want to pace, you know, I don't want her.




Doing the trick does feel dirty every time you do it. Like when you know your trick. Yeah. You're like, oh I'm back here again. Fuck. Right. A fucking joke. Just furious at yourself. Oh you made fun of that guy's had again almost callback to this guy's. I used to do the store all the time.


It's like oh fuck. It feels a little tired.


I'm just going to open with those those ones that I know work here. Yeah, definitely.


And then you just hate yourself while you're on stage and get yourself right if I get one good one, I guess long as I don't do the whole set like that.


Yeah. But then you sort of rationalize. You're right. But this is a good joke.


Mm hmm. Like I still got to figure it out.


Yeah. What is it is a relief. So how long you been married. I've been married for since twenty sixteen. She's a doctor. What kind of doctor. She's a family medicine doctor or general practitioner GP. Yeah, well, family specifically.


She's a first year resident in Fort Collins. We're in Fort Collins now.


My brother's living there. Oh yeah. Yeah. Beautiful man. It's great. So he's liking it. Yeah. I'm really glad that we got in there instead of Eau Claire, Wisconsin. Wow. See, the Mayo Clinic sniffed around her. Oh.


Oh. For the residents. Yeah. It was like, baby, I love you. I want you to be successful.


But when you're close to family to right our way. Yeah. Yeah.


My brother just he's he just landed in Fort Collins after a lot of you know, he finally kind of landed on his feet and he's Degenhardt come through man.


I will. He's like, you know, he's up there. It's beautiful. Do you like to ride bikes? Well, I like to hike. Yeah, you got it. Horse tooth reservoir.


That's right here by the bike riding thing.


I can't do this to me guys my age with a superhero outfits on.


They love it their whole identity. It's ridiculous. They'll see me chugging along on my five speed.


Just see them up on the hike that I take. I'm like, what are you guys doing? You call each other about the hours this for I guess I guess it's easier on your shit to coordinate. Well, no, to bike.


Like I hike and I can feel it, you know, beat my bones up. I think the biking is supposed to be. It's better for your joints, I think. Correct.


Right. That's why I do it, because I'm so immense. But how long how far do you got a bike to get a good fucking bus.


Oh, plus like an hour. You know, you put in a podcast and hit the trails I play. I was on Zeppelin today. Oh Zeppelin today.


And I was blasting lightning bolt in the desert on the drive here. Yeah. Getting pumped. Good. Yeah. Is that the new death. The new one. Oh no. Lightning Bolts. This band that I thought was the new AC DC no suit ac DC sucks.


They didn't used to. Well these two cage fighters that I know from Arkansas. Yeah. They were out of my house like four weeks ago. Yeah. I told them AC DC sucked and they wanted to pants me and pushed me over really high.


I'm a big fan of all the records, all the band records and back and back. But then I kind of drift.


It doesn't sway and it doesn't rock hard enough.


It's just big riffs I guess. But I like the way it does. I think he swings. I think Filkin. I think I like that. I like that beat. I can. Yeah, sure man. I'm sure I'm going to I appreciate your take on it and I'm not going to judge you on it. But I will I will stand by the first six AC DC.


I'm going to do this respectfully disagree with you.


That's fine. OK, but tell me about this lightning foot business. Oh, lightning bolt. There's a drum and bass band that makes it just.


Did the old guy think it was just lightning head and you get half the word wrong.


What is this lightning rod thing? Thunder knows they're just they're the most important band. Oh, really? Yeah. I love where they from. They're from the same Fort Thunder that John Dwyer started out when he was in pink and brown. They're all from Providence.


Oh, from Providence, not pre Bay Area. John Dwyer. Yeah. Before he moved out here. Mm hmm. I think I did all right. With John. You crushed. Yeah. So cool, man. Yeah, I just got him to be himself. Yes. Yeah.


Go slow that guy down a little because I listen to him sometimes in interviews and I'm like, all right, John, we all know you're the coolest guy ever. Yeah. Let's just be a person. Yeah, it took a while. Well, I think the fact that we shared a a girlfriend that way, though, was a revelation.


Yeah. She didn't talk to me no more.


It's all right. It happened. You guys gave each other what was necessary at the time. I like to look at it like that. But then you would think that through that, with that disposition, why can't we be social? Yeah, you know what I mean. Yeah. Or at least say hi.


Or at least why can I why can I not feel like there's another person out there hating me?


It does weigh on you, you guys. All that psychic trauma and your personal Christmas tree dude, when you've lived the life, that's the one thing like even in some. It's like there's still. I'm not saying they're waking up hating me, yeah, but there are still people out there.


Someone goes, you know, Marc Maron that I get like when you're talking about that Waggner guy's books. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I know. Yeah.


You don't have no kids. No kids. We can do. We're going to have kids, ok. Yeah. Yeah. I guess you're young.


I fought it for a long time. Well now that you you realize you have to do comedy anymore, it's a relief now that you I maybe I work through that.


That's the other fucked up thing about it, because I'm always been a guy that's sort of like you don't say the comedy's therapy. It's not. But there's some part of me having this forced downtime where I'm like, maybe I work do it.


Maybe, yeah, maybe. Maybe I can be myself.


The therapy thing doesn't piss me off. When people call it art, I get upset. Oh, yeah. Yeah.


I never got to that. It's your hard. I don't know how it is. I mean like the only thing that makes me an artist is that I'm inconsistent.


Deb, all right. Now I'm, I'm bored. You figured it out. Yeah. That's the only part, you know. Yeah. The rest of them are just doing this fucking dance. Yeah.


I'm glad to be in L.A. and enjoying it because every time I come out here, the dread, it's a nightmare for me. How long you've been out. I got here yesterday. Are you going right back or. I don't know. I'm going to see some friends tonight. It's hard, right, because of the covid. Oh yeah. I can see two of them. I said, oh, Chris Charpentier and Danny Moppin, a couple of buddies.


I usually come out here, though, and like, I'll be auditioning for something with a bunch of young, precious comedians. Yeah. And I see their act like I'm going to fucking bury them. Yeah. Get out there and do my act. And people are like, what the hell?


Chill out, man.


Well, that's the thing is like if you're too funny. Yeah. Then they're like they're like we don't get really you know, they don't see you. Yeah. Unless you're sort of half tanking. Right. Because if you just kill you like, oh, I'm the guy doing the job. Yeah. You must be the other guy. Yeah. That's a great line in fucking The Departed. It's like the only good line in The Departed were where they fuck up the sting.


We don't got cameras around back. We mean there's no cameras around the back. Yeah. And the guy goes, who are you. Like I'm the guy doing his job. You must be the other guy. Yeah. Alec Baldwin is so good. That movie that was that was Marky.


OK, that was Mark. Mark. Yeah. But Baldwin was good. Yeah.


But Wahlberg, I'm always like when Wahlberg sinks his teeth into something so fucking good I can put that movie on him.


My wife's ready to go. What. To party. She likes it. She really likes that movie.


You know, it's a little fragmented for a Scorsese movie, but I do I do enjoy the performances. She gets worked up. Yeah. I just like.


But the only problem with with it is, is like it's like Nicholson is like a clown. Oh for sure. It's just like get your done. Do you know what I mean.


They could you know, it's almost like it's bad. He's just doing eyebrow acting but it's just like when he's throwing up the powder.


My come on. This isn't for you. Chill out man.


All right. Well how do you feel. We feel we did it. Think so, man. Yeah, it's great. Great to honor. Yeah.


And remind me, I'm going to give you a mug. I don't get to hand out the mugs anymore. OK, so you get to have one of the Brian Jones special hand thrown mugs for the guests.


Man Yeah. That's a it's a true joy. Yeah, it's a tradition. But hey, by the way, listeners by that book had Sam Talent Dotcom. Oh, yeah.


It's a great book.


Like you did a great job and and you're a real writer. And I was I was excited to give it to my friend Sam Lipsyte, who I respect a great deal. Yeah. He's because he's a lofty guy. He's a he's one of those guys. You got some of the same talent, same heroes. He's a big who's the guy you mention? Dennis Johnson. Denton. Dennis Johnson. Barry Hannah. Oh, Barry Hannah. Stanley Alchin.




Those are all his guys. I got to hang out with this guy. Yeah, he's great. You don't have any of his books. Oh, I got to give you one of his books.


That's the thing about books, man, is there's so many, but he's a guy like he's got he's got tight tone, tight voice, funny dark comedy stuff handed over.


Oh fuck. Yeah. I'll, I'll dig up a book for you. All right. But but yeah. I don't have to sell it again. I'll sell it when you're gone.


Thank you. Good talking to you Sam.


You too. There you go, man, it's funny that all the live ones I've done over the last year are really with comics except for Wayne Coyne, isn't that right? I think it is. The book is Running the Light. You can get it at Sam Talent Dotcom. That's talent with two L's. And don't forget, simply Safe Home Security delivers award winning 24/7 protection with the best professional monitors in the business. They've got your back day and night ready to send help straight to your door.


Plus, there is no long term contract, no hidden fees or installation costs. Get a free home security camera. When you purchase a simply safe system at simply safe dotcom WTF, you also get a 60 day risk free trial, simply safe dotcom slash WTF. I'm going to grind out a little Christmas Carol here on my new Gibson S.G. Captain Model. I was a gift, it was a beautiful gift and the guitar was and I just got it and I've got to figure out how to wrap my brain around.


This is straight into it. Dirty tube amp. There's only one sound of the seemingly endless number of sounds I can get out of this motherfucker.


Black with gold hardware.


The captain. S.G. Dig. It ain't no Bonamassa. Munky Lavander. Cat angels everywhere, cat angel. Happy holidays.