Now, I got to get this one good, there's got to be the best one ever did, OK? More welcome. Welcome.

Welcome to armchair expert. I didn't pass the test. I wanted this to be the best intro I ever did. Yeah.

And then you started off IQ while I was trying to go extra low, take two. Oh, my. Were OK and welcome. Well, why do you like it to be so deep.

Because it's pleasing. Oh welcome. Welcome, welcome to armchair expert. I'm Dan Shepherd. I'm joined by Monastir moused high. What a good day today. Yes.

Oh my gosh.

This is one of the invites that came with an exclamation point when you sent me the email.

Yeah, I said, can you believe it?

And in the calendar, it always had an exclamation point. That's why we love. Yeah, yeah. He he adds exclamation points to when he's excited.

Yes. In then we are excited about very. Yeah. So I say it during this interview but I heard her on Howard Stern and I just enjoyed it so darn much and I immediately told you to listen to it. Such a fantastic interview. And I remember thinking, God, I wish I could talk to her as well. An interviewer.

And here we are. Hillary Rodham Clinton is an American politician, a diplomat, a lawyer, a writer, a public speaker.

She was secretary of state. She was a first lady. She was a senator by God. She was on the Nixon impeachment team.

She's done everything, literally done everything. She was the first female presidential candidate.

Yes, she was the first female presidential candidate. Well, listen, she's got some books in addition to all those wonderful accolades, the book of Gutsy Women that she wrote with her daughter, Chelsea, which is fantastic. What happened? Hard choices in living history. That's right. She somehow found time to write four books. There's an amazing documentary on Hulu. I really recommend everyone see it.

And now she has a new podcast called You and Me, both with Hillary Clinton. And I've listened to it. She's fantastic. She has access to some of the most stimulating thinkers on the planet and you should check that out as well. So that's you and me both with Hillary Clinton. You can find that on all the places you find podcasts.

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He's in our chat. Here we are, here we are. Hello. So I've been cleaning my favorite covid activity, I've been cleaning. Oh, what rooms did you tackle?

Oh, my gosh, I've been working my way up from the basement. I'm now in the attic.

Oh, my goodness. So really soup to nuts making lots of progress.

Are you doing a Michele Kondo approach? Is that her name? No. Marie, Conrad Murray kind of like putting things out and seeing like, I love you or I don't love you, that whole thing.

Yeah, but unlike her, I end up loving most things and I end up keeping it like, you know, what am I going to do with it? I've just move it from one place to the next.

It's like, is it at all related? And I don't want to project on behalf of my wife, but I notice when she starts really organizing some area of the house that from my point of view, seems organized. I know. OK, this is a little bit of her depression. This is how she kind of satiates her depression. I have things I do. And that's the one that to me, that's a little bit of a red flag.

I think you have put your finger on a very important issue because speaking for myself and every woman friend I have, cleaning, organizing and literally trying to make your life make sense by moving things physically around.

Yeah. Is exactly what I do. And my husband has said that I will be on my deathbed and I will say to him, Bill, just move that chair like six inches to the left.

Right.

I don't know. I think it must be DNA or something. Yeah. And is the guy you're kind of put in this position where all this work's been done and of course, you deserve some praise for it. And so my wife will go like, look at the dog draw and now I have to fake it because I really can't delineate what's a really well organized, you know, dog draw or not so. Right. Right.

Yeah, but being the astute listener that I know you are, you will have heard that tone in her voice.

And the correct answer is, that's amazing.

Yeah, it's just amazing. Wow. That is streaming. How did you find time to do that now? I think she sounds a lot kinder than I am because what I do is take this stuff and dump it into boxes.

Oh, no, that happens. That happens. OK, good.

Yeah, just checking here and then I kind of move it into his line of sight and sometimes into his path.

Hey, now you've got to sort all this out.

I don't think I could say I have a prized possession, but if I had to say one that I have, it would be that I've journaled obsessively for the last six years and at one point was next to the garage or there's an extra fridge. And I was digging through some things and I found all my journals is sitting on the ground in the damp corner of the little utility room. And I thought, wow, I wouldn't have put these here.

Maybe now that I think is precious stuff. OK, this is I'm talking like just this morning, for example, DVDs and CDs.

Oh, going back twenty five.

Thirty five years. People who sent us their first recording ever. Dear Bill and Hillary, I hope you love it. And you know, here we are. We still have dozens and dozens and maybe as many as hundreds of them and not any disrespect to anybody. But we got to figure out what to do with all that, don't you think?

I want to go back to the journals because the journals are let's earmark the DVDs because I'm super guilty and it's such a male stupid thing we do. Like we're obsessed. My father had laserdisc. There wasn't even a way to view them anymore, but he had to keep them.

I mean, if you look behind me, I've got shelves of them, which I'm trying to clear off so that I can, you know, use for more, I think, productive purposes.

But yeah. OK, so journals.

Yeah, look, I'm hugely impressed by your journaling and I think those should be preserved. You don't want those to get wrecked. You want to be able to reflect back on them. You may want your kids someday far away. You may want to write something using them dacs. I mean, yeah, journals are real time reflections of who you are and what you're thinking and going through at a point in your life. You should figure out how to actually keep those in good shape.

Yeah. And I think also, even though it's not a person having one outlet of total honesty in your life for me is quite helpful. When I've gotten into trouble in my life is when I'm not even being honest with that journal because I'm so afraid someone will find it.

Yeah, but I mean, I think you deserve a lot of credit for being transparent, being honest, getting yourself on track. Keep going. I mean, yeah, you deserve a lot of credit. It's not easy.

OK, so I want to get something that you will not like out of the way right away. I know you won't like it and let's get it. It's our homework. Let's get it done so we can watch Netflix and chill.

I've been just bingeing both the documentary.

Listen to your Stern interview. I've been listening to a lot. And I think we share this in common, you hate compliments. Is that a fair assessment? Yeah, I don't know what to do with them, so it makes me cringe. Yeah, I'm not good at it. And I have tried to get better. You know, I used to be one of those people that would always parry them and. Oh, no, no. Yeah.

Now, well that was not that hard or this was not that, you know, like you say.

And then people said to me, you know, come on, accept the compliment. OK, yes.

But do you think that's a female thing? Like where. Well, I have it to I was going to relate to.

Well, you're a female anyway. That's true. You know, you're trained to downplay.

Right. I think you deflect you're supposed to be deflecting away from yourself all the time. We may have all three of us have that in common.

Well, what's weird is all I want is praise. I've had a very extroverted life and I was in search of great adulation. So it's very weird that when and then comes my way, I guess what I feel like is on Christmas morning, when someone's staring at you, as you open their present and you're just panicked, you're not going to give the right reaction to the present. I don't know what to say to sound gracious.

Well, I've had to practice, though. I really recommend it to you. Yeah, please just practice, because if you can get.

Oh, thank you or thank you so much, you're done. You have to say anything else.

And actually it kind of releases some of the pent up anxiety about is the gift going to be received well? Is your performance going to be approved of whatever it is your angst over? So yeah, just practicing. Oh thank you. Yeah.

Yeah. I guess then I feel arrogant, like I agree with you. That's what it is. I'm like by me saying thank you. It makes me feel like I'm saying I agree with you. I am the shit.

Yeah. But I think you're spending too much time ruminating on this.

That's I think when I think of all the worries that we have in our respective lives, the country and the world, I think, you know, there may be places and moments where, yeah, you do need to kick yourself about being arrogant, but giving a gift, getting a compliment.

I think you can let that rest.

OK, so I just want to get them out of the way. OK, OK, great. First and foremost, again, I was reminded you have the most arresting blue eyes.

There's so fucking beautiful. When I was watching the Hulu thing, I've got a really nice television so I was getting it in four K and they're so unbelievably beautiful.

You have the most beautiful eyes sparkling. Monica, would you agree with that assessment?

Yes.

Oh, thank you. I bet you weren't expecting a physical compliment first.

That's what he specialty's.

I can take no credit for that. I mean, you know, there's my deflection. Yeah. I give my parents my ancestors credit for however that happened.

Yeah. People will go like I love parenthood and I go, great. That's Jason Katims compliment. I'll tell him when I see him. He could make a great show.

Well, the worst is when they say, like, your mom is so pretty, then it's like, oh, OK.

You don't even know how to say thank you to that because it's really not about you. Oh, that's me in public. I love your wife. Yeah. Yes, I do too. We had to in. Yeah.

No look I have had to deal with that obviously. And so yeah that's another area where you just say, oh thanks. I mean it makes no sense.

They're complimenting your mother or your wife, but. Oh yeah. Oh thanks. You just take it.

And I think we're actually helping a lot of people are going to listen to this because, you know, just. Oh, thanks.

I think you'd be shocked because I think a lot of us desire this approval. And then when we get it, you don't feel worthy. I mean, part of this is that sense of unworthiness. And then there's the imposter syndrome. Oh, yeah, right. If you really knew who I was, you would not be saying these nice things about me.

And somebody asked me, So what do you want on your gravestone?

I said, well, I don't know, maybe she wasn't as bad or as good as some people thought, you know, because you you want to try to get to a sense of reality and authenticity. And it's hard when you're in the public eye because people are going to say positive and negative things about you that frankly have very little to do with you.

Oh, isn't that the case? Yeah, right. Yeah. So much of the blowback you've received over the years, I think was exactly that. Like some level of guilt of I think I could have maybe done more and I didn't. And now this person's telling me I chose wrong. You know, it's very personal.

And I think all of this gets amplified by social media. I mean, is as bad as this is because we're human beings and it's just part of who we are. I think it's really bad because of how it's everywhere.

Yes. Did you watch the social dilemma? Yes. Oh, wasn't that terrifying?

Yeah. Yeah. You should have Tristan on your podcast. He was an incredible guest.

And have you had him on. We just had him on. Oh, I'm going to listen, ok. Thing, I just want to say I have two daughters and it gives me so much gratitude to sit and watch with a five year old and a seven year old. Your documentary and as a road map of where women have started and of course, even worse than before your time. But their own grandmother, who's roughly your age, my mom to where we're at today, I can't think of a better example to provide the whole context of, you know, going to law school, being one of 20 female law students, you know, getting heckled at the LSAT stuff that people just wouldn't really imagine was happening just five minutes ago in our history.

And to show them what someone with conviction and drive and ambition and intelligence and believe in themselves can do. You couldn't have shown your daughter that documentary.

No. In fact, Chelsea and I wrote a book together called The Book of Gutsy Women. And one of the reasons that we wrote it is our life experiences are so different. You're so right. When I was a little girl, there just weren't very many women in the history books that we read in my elementary school. You know, there might be Joan of Arc or Elizabeth the first, something like that.

I didn't know any woman who worked outside the home other than my teachers and the public librarians and maybe somebody who would wait on me in a store.

So Chelsea had this entirely different experience or pediatrician was a woman. The mayor of our town was a woman, you know, and we talked about that how in just that one generation there were more possibilities. And it gave us the incentive to sort of write about the women that we each had admired, both in history and in the present.

And it was a fascinating exercise for us because, you know, there were women that I really admired that were not on Chelsea's wavelength at all. And same with her. Right. And so I think the Hulu documentary and they did an amazing job because they found footage that I had never seen, didn't even know existed to tell the story because they wanted it to do exactly as you just said, to be the arc of modern women's history, not just my story, but my story as it connected to and maybe reflected what other women and girls had gone through.

And so I think today Kamala Harris story would be very different. And yet she and I are good friends. We've talked about how she often was subjected to some of the same kind of sexist and misogynistic comments. But nevertheless, I mean, it keeps moving forward. And that's what we have to be really behind this forward movement of progress. It's like our own lives. I mean, you know, you fall down, you get back up, you try to do better.

You keep going. It's you know, that's society, too. Yeah.

To just wrap up the compliments, I just love you to death. I don't think a more qualified human being has ever, ever run for president. You're just incredible and I love you. So that aside, have you happened to listen to the Malcolm Gladwell podcast episode called The Token? It's really about Sammy Davis Jr., but then it explores in a much broader way the weight of being the token. And I think that's something that people might not understand about your life.

Your career is that you were so often the token. You are almost a novelty at a law firm or in core. People come watch you. Right?

You know, I tell the story about trying a lawsuit in north Arkansas.

This was a lot of years ago and it was a small courthouse. The trial was, I think about, I don't know, three days long. And on the second day, I come back from the lunch break and there are a bunch of guys in camouflage that had been out in the deer woods and they had come in to buy supplies. So I said to the bailiff, who are they? And he told me, I said, why are they here?

He said, they just wanted to come see the lady lawyer. And that's who I was. The lady lawyer, by the way.

Shocked there wasn't a TV show in the 80s called Lady Lawyer. Yeah, you say a science fiction show.

So I had a question about you just said you wrote a book with Chelsea and I have met her once. We both I think we cohosted a marriage equality rally back in the day in New York. And I found her to be very lovely. And you have to be crazy proud of her.

What I'm curious about is I selfishly in ego, maniacally looked forward to raising children because I wanted to give them the tools that I felt like I had so desperately needed as a kid, so very narcissistic. And I wondered, you had to have had similar feelings where I'm going to have this girl and now I'm going to be able to give her the support and the education that I would have just thrived on. And I wonder, what fruit did that bear and then what mistakes were implicit in that, because I fear that I'm I'm on the verge of making them.

Well, you have two daughters, right? Yes. Yes. And how old are they now? Five and seven. Yeah. First of all, I think you just described what a lot of parents feel. I mean, you want obviously the best, but you also, you know, want to try to be aware enough so that you don't make what you think were mistakes made with you. Right. We all do it, though. There's no escaping from it.

I mean, we are the products of our own parents efforts to raise us. And I was lucky because my mother was incredibly focused on education and on supporting me to be independent and outspoken. And my dad, who was a classic man of that generation, played football at Penn State, was a chief petty officer in the Navy during World War Two, a boxer, a boxer.

He did not have any idea how to raise a girl. So in effect, I was given more freedom to just explore. He cared a lot about school. I care a lot about grades. If I'd bring home good grades, he'd say that must be an easy school.

So he was that sort of tough love mode of parenting. The combination of the two of them really worked. And I think that's another way of thinking about it. You know, the combination of you and their mom brings different experiences and aspirations for them. And kind of together it all works.

You know, with Chelsea, she was an adventurous little girl. I mean, when she was five years old, she announced that she wanted to go to sleep away camp because she wanted to start having adventures. So I said, you can't go away when you're five.

So for me, it was constantly trying to find the right balance, not imposing on her what I wanted her to become, but trying the best I could to enable her to become whoever she was going to be. You know, it's hard.

I mean, it's the hardest job I ever had. I mean, I had a lot of hard jobs and it's the hardest one. And you get them to adulthood and you go, who, boy? And then, you know, adulthood poses new challenges. My mother, when I was in the Senate, my mother lived with us during the last years of her life. And I'd come home and I'd see her watching Fox News and I'd say, you know why?

She said, I have to know what they're going to say about you. Sure.

That's got to be a little bit painful. And she goes, you know, you are a good girl growing up.

And I just don't know what happened.

The things they say about you were so terrible that maybe you should turn it off and not pay attention.

So even when you have an adult child, you know, you're still kind of, oh, your heart's beating hard. So now we have these three amazing grandchildren and I'm going through it all again because they're three totally different personalities. And that's the other thing. This whole nature nurture kind of conflict that people talk about. You can see their personalities, don't you think?

Oh, my goodness, yeah, it's crazy from the earliest weeks and months of their life. And they're different. And you're trying to give them the same parenting. But how can you give the same parenting to three different little people who respond in different ways? And so it's a constant balancing act, but that's part of the joy as well as the challenge of being a parent. And, you know, with a five and a seven year old girl in your house, you know, it's going to get more complicated.

I hate to tell you that. Oh, sure. It's going to get more complicated.

I actually think raising kids today in some ways is a lot harder than it was for my parents raising us. I mean, it's a classic kind of thing. Growing up in the suburbs of Chicago, it was like, OK, go outside, come home for dinner. They never worried about us. They never really checked up on us. We were in and out of other people's houses as well as ours. It was such a different environment.

Well, yeah, I'm sure you've read this. There was a New York Times article a couple of years ago or maybe just a year ago. We've referenced it a few times that working mothers currently spend more time with their children than fifties housewives did. It's not like one thing went down. In fact, it's increased as women have entered the workforce. Now, there's just basically zero time for mom. Yeah.

And I think also it's not just because of the pandemic. People spend a lot of time inside. Kids spend more time inside because of screen time. Yeah.

Than we did. And in order to get kids outside, sometimes you have to put them in the car and drive them somewhere as opposed to the way I grew up where just get out. Oh yeah. Yeah. And we were on our own for, you know, half the day or most of the day.

Well, we're from the same latitude. So I'm from Detroit when it's dark. Well the summertime that's damn near ten o'clock at night.

It is, yeah. I mean, you are feral and I appreciated it.

We used to play the most sophisticated games in our neighborhood and we would have mock courts to try people who violated the norms of.

But oh, yeah, I mean, it was a little bit like Lord of the Flies, not quite as bad as the Stanford prison experiment.

Well, speaking of Detroit, I talked to your fabulous governor yesterday. I just was so happy to talk to her. Wow. What a incredible, gutsy woman.

She's a gangster. So I wanted to talk just vaguely about transitions. Mm hmm. What is the experience like going from someone who admired people like RBG, Gloria Steinem, and then finding yourself as being one of those people? What's that experience like, becoming a person that, you know, you held in your heart?

Hmm. I think that's a great question. And it is a big leap when you go from not being on the global stage to all of a sudden being there and people are checking to see, are you for real or not? You know, and you do get that sense of lack of worthiness. Gosh, you know, you look at people from afar and the heroes that I had, like Amelia Earhart and, you know, you mentioned RBG, who, you know, I met in the 80s.

And obviously Gloria Steinem, I started reading this magazine when I, you know, was a young woman.

And then you get to know them. And actually, in lots of ways, it's even better because you can connect with them over shared experiences.

Yeah, and I find that very fulfilling and reassuring.

Well, I was going to say and this is no way complaining about the really privileged position you find yourself in, but it is also very isolating.

It can be 100 percent because your concerns, your problems, they could probably seem trivial to someone else. You're experiencing some things that are really complicated feelings, as you say, imposter syndrome. I would imagine there's great value and being able to connect with people and feel seen and heard and understood. But I think that's true for everybody.

You don't have to be kind of well-known globally in your own community. You've got to have a circle of people you can be as open with. I've had girlfriends literally that go back to my elementary school years. I've had people that when it all got too much, you can pick up the phone or arrange to meet and just vent and eat a lot of pizza and feel better about life. And, you know, you've got to have that, too.

I mean, and it's funny now because I'm really pondering and don't fully understand what social media is doing to us, but the lines between public and private are being so blurred, I don't quite know how you create the boundaries that we all need to live. I mean, you got to have some boundaries. You can't be totally open to every sling and arrow that comes your way or every kind of, you know, compliment that may or may not be merited.

And it's so much harder now because people think they know you in a way that you go, wait a minute, I don't know. I mean, the first experience I had about this long time ago when Bill was running for president, the first time in 92, I was doing an interview, as I remember it, on a radio station in Connecticut. And the interviewer had a list of things in front of him. And he goes, Oh, I hear you were a champion diver.

I said, no, I wasn't.

You go, Well, it says right here you were a champion diver. I said, but I wasn't.

And I found myself having an argument about my own life with this stranger who was insisting because he'd been told I was something that I knew I wasn't.

You know, you kind of stopping that. Well, maybe it's just easier to say, OK, I was a champion diver.

But, you know, it's such a strange phenomenon when you're in the public eye and when people are putting all sorts of assumptions about you and on you and acting alone.

Yeah. Hello. Yeah, no, that's not me. I mean, that's not who I am. That's not what I said or that's not what I did.

Well, I agree. I have a similar concern, but my thought is like it has to go in one of either two directions. Either the line between public and private life is getting so blurry that you no longer are left with a safe space to air thoughts that probably you don't want the world to hear, to be challenged, to have different opinions. You know, you need a playground to go. I don't know if this is the greatest idea, but I feel this way.

I'd love to be corrected. You know, that's a dicey experience to have in public. Yeah, it is.

And I think we all need safe places. We all need a zone of privacy. And, you know, even the best manipulators of social media and some are amazingly good at it. You know, that they're in on the joke. It's like. OK. All right, here, we're going to show you this much, but, you know, we're still editing, we still have control over it.

But a lot of people who are sucked in to the social media vortex, they don't have either that control or that understanding that they're giving up so much by not letting there be this zone of privacy where, yeah, you can make mistakes, you can say things that, you know, maybe you'll regret later. And it'll take somebody who you trust to say, hey, you know, that wasn't the right way to do it. How do you grow if you have no safe space in which to try that?

So when I'm feeling optimistic, I feel like, OK, well, maybe this is all going to lead to it's impossible now to hide our skeletons. And what we're going to all realize is, oh, we're all equally fucked up. This is a really hard experience to get through flawlessly and maybe people will feel less pressured to be perfect. Or when I'm feeling pessimistic, it's that there is no safe space. So I'm going to hide even more and I'm going to feel even more shame because it appears everyone else has figured this out.

But I think the data seems to show right now that particularly for young people, it's going in the negative direction that, yes, you know, the constant comparisons, the falling short of what you see on Instagram or wherever else you're looking does inject a sense of unworthiness, even shame, which, as you know, is the worst of all feelings because it just can take you in a downward spiral.

And when I talk to people who run colleges and universities, again, this is pre pandemic. You know, they say that the increase in anxiety and depression among young people is pretty dramatic. And when I asked them, why do you think that is? I mean, life is always hard, as you rightly say, and we all have our screw ups. They say social media is playing a role in that. To some extent. We don't really understand it.

And then when the American Academy of Pediatrics says, keep your kids off screens completely till the age of two and really limit it. And then finally, I was talking with some cognitive scientists some months back and they said that, you know, they've been trying to gauge what screentime does to the developing brain. And they were making, you know, some rounds in Silicon Valley among charities there to raise money to look at this. And one of the people they met with, big tycoon in Silicon Valley, said, well, yeah, you probably are on to something because, you know, we put into our contracts with our caregivers that they can't allow kids to watch screens.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's like, OK, you know, you're in the center of all this incredible change in human psychology and even human evolution and you know that it's dangerous and they'll be the first to admit they don't have any control over it as well, which is really, you know, if the people who designed it are powerless over it, that should be very telling.

Yeah, yeah. The algorithms are running everything, it turns out. Yes.

Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

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OK, you excelled in your own high school, then you go to Wellesley and you are the speaker at the graduation.

Now, if your community was three billion people on Facebook, well, you wouldn't have been elected to speak at your graduation because probably in two and a half million people would have been better than you at it or at least done a better job marketing, you know?

Yeah, absolutely.

And so these little incremental pools that we're in where we gain confidence and we learn that we take a little baby step towards all these things, and then, of course, you then learn how to become Hillary Clinton and be the secretary of state and go talk to Putin and have some level of competence. But, man, yeah, if you would just started out competing with two and a half billion people, you've been like, well, I'm kind of average.

I've got to be average.

Yeah, well, you know, I think that's especially true in women's lives because, you know, too often we are programmed to compare ourselves against impossible standards. You just feel constantly like you're not good enough. You're not this enough, you're not that enough. And you're right about the confidence factor. I mean, it's in small groups starting, frankly, in your family, but then increasing sized groups in school and community where you discover who you are, where you create your identity, where you get the confidence to pursue your own interests and dreams.

And if you short circuit that because you get thrown into this gigantic pool of, as you say, like two and a half, three billion people, well, there's no way that you're ever going to be competitive. It's just a fact of, you know, the numbers, the mathematically, it's impossible.

So we're not doing our kids any service by sort of tearing down all the boundaries and thrusting them into a social media world where they make friends with people they never meet. They try to develop relationships with people that they have no idea who they really are because they, too, are trying to put their best face forward. It's a complicated path to navigate right now. I just have a quick question.

Going back to transitions and you moving into the public stage. I wondered this. Since the 2016 election, like you, you know, I'm wearing my nasty woman shirt right now. Yes. Kristen, me and Dax's sister Carly on Election Day. We went out. We came, we went to the polls. We brought donuts. We were so excited. And for you, like you're carrying around the weight of me, of the girl down the street, you're walking around with all of this pressure on your shoulders of all these little girls.

Like, I'm dying for this to happen.

I need this to happen. That's so much like it's so unfair of all of us. I mean, we can't help it, but it's unfair of us to be projecting all of that energy onto you.

But, you know, Monica, I felt that I mean, you have described it to a T.. I really felt the weight of history, the weight of expectation.

I mean, the you know, the thousands of, you know, girls and young women who showed up at my events and they'd be wearing the t shirts. And it just had such a a sense of possibility.

And I think you've rightly pointed out one of the most difficult transitions I ever had to go through was unexpectedly, you know, and not becoming president because I thought I was I thought I was on the path to being the president. I had a very clear idea of what I wanted to do to, you know, deal with a lot of the serious problems we face. And for at least two years, you know, very intensely at first and then beginning to taper off, people would come up and throw their arms around me and sob on my shoulder.

They would be with tears streaming down their face.

There were a lot of young women who came up and apologized to me because they said they didn't vote because they didn't think I needed them to vote.

I'm so happy that voting has gone up in the last two elections, particularly this one.

So I felt the burden on an almost daily basis that I feel like I let you down. I'm so sorry. I don't exactly understand what happened. And we've learned more. And then and then I, you know, said, look, I got to write a book about this because I can't figure it out. And none of the quick takes on it made sense to me. And so I did.

I wrote a book called What Happened, because it was a perfect storm of all sorts of forces at work.

And thankfully, people learned, you know, about the Russians interfering. They learned about all of the disinformation on Facebook and everything that influenced voters.

They had a chance to digest that. And it didn't have as big an impact, certainly in twenty, eighteen or in this twenty twenty election. But it was hard. That was a really tough transition. You know, I love going for long walks. It's my mental health exercise.

You like to go in the woods as these women love your long walk and ask you. I mean we love these walks and you know, doing all those walks where I live, where I live in New York, there's lots of places to walk that are.

Pretty nice and so. Oh, my gosh, like three days after the election, I was back in the woods, I wasn't sure I was ever coming out. And I walked on a trail past a young woman who had a baby in her backpack and had a dog on a leash. And I kind of nodded at her and she took like a step past, you know, just started to cry, said, you know, I've got it. I've got to talk to you.

I've got to see you. We took a picture, she posted it, and then all the walking in the woods meme started up. But incredibly emotional for me, too, because up until that point, I'd basically been just in my house, you know, feeling incredibly distressed.

So getting out there and beginning to go back to stores, go to the theater, go out to, you know, restaurants with my friends, I began interacting with people who kind of oddly, I think were also having a transition, if you will, transition from their hopes and expectations and the level of grief from if you talk about the stages of grief that so many people went through.

You know, I think it's one of the reasons why people are exhaling right now. You know, this election was closer than it should have been. It's hard to believe that, you know, millions more people than had voted for the first time, saw what he had been doing and saying and wanted more of it. But nevertheless, you know, the election repudiated him and elected an honorable and decent man and an incredible woman to be our leaders. So I think people are kind of almost saying, I want to get back to not having to worry about politics.

I want to get back to normalcy. I want to, you know, sleep through the night. I don't want to be scrolling on Twitter seeing what terrible thing is going to happen or be sad. So a lot of transition is happening right now.

It was a great question. I had a similar one, but it was on such a minuscule scale. I have made movies where I wrote them, I directed them, I was in them. Then I traveled the country, got in front of every camera that would have me. And I said, please go see my movie. And then the movie failed. And then when I walked around L.A., I thought everyone had just read the box office totals and I was a complete failure.

And even that is not very analogous because there is distance between me and the product. Like you might not have liked the product, but you're saying pick me. Yeah, exactly. I am the product.

That's right. I am the product.

I spent at least four months going. I gave up, I tried my hardest. And this is when you quit and I wonder how you decided I'm not going to quit and I'm going to focus on some other things. I'm going to be some different goals. And what was that process like? So I think that could be hugely helpful for everyone who's experiencing failure, as we all do. Yeah. And a failure in public.

So, yeah, it's it's it's like what you were saying, you do feel like, oh my gosh, you know, it's right out there. You can't escape it. I honestly think that for me, because I care deeply about what happens in the country, in the world and I worry a lot about everything.

I thought, OK, I'm going to try to figure out what happened and then I'm going to try to figure out what to do that I can do about it.

So I started an organization called Onward Together and funded a lot of young people's groups who were registering voters, who were recruiting people to run for office, who were training them, who were raising money for them, and were dealing with problems of, you know, kids getting separated at the border and all the stuff that just keeps me up at night and puts a big hole in my stomach.

Can I add it's been very successful that onward together that 70 percent of the folks you guys got behind won their election and that it's really helpful.

Well, and it's something I have been really devoted to. And, you know, then I in addition to writing that book and writing the book with my daughter, I turn my attention to this twenty twenty campaign and did everything I could to support the Democrats running. I talked to practically all of them because remember when they started there, about twenty two or three of them and tried to provide help and advice and whatever they needed and then, you know, got behind Joe Biden when it became clear he would be our nominee.

And I've been very involved in his campaign as well as others.

And then I started a podcast. I mean, that's where we all go, right?

We all go to start a podcast. All roads lead back to podcasts.

Well, you know, part of it I don't know about you, but I loved listening to the radio when I was growing up. Oh, yeah.

Garrison Keillor. Did you listen to Prairie Home? Oh. Oh. But I mean, I even predate that. I mean, I you know, there used to be soap operas on the radio when I was a little girl, as well as interview shows. And of course, you know, WLS was our station and Chicago listen to, you know, rock and roll and music to late at night. So radio for me has always been a terrific medium because I always feel like I can, you know, do something else while I'm listening to.

Totally occupied. Anyway, they came to me with the idea of doing a podcast, and I'm usually the one being asked the questions and I thought this could be fun. So I started you and me both, and I've had the best time. I've really enjoyed it.

I wanted to ask you, first of all, before we go to you and me both, I just want for people who would want to support onward together.

Where should they go onward together again? Onward together. Doug OK. Yeah, yeah. Now you and me both. So here is my own misguided ego. I thought I've done a trillion interviews.

I'm going to be great at this. Huh.

And what I'm desperate very quickly is like, oh, I'm supposed to talk less than these. And that was hard for me. Yeah, I know.

And and and also, when you are the interviewee instead of the interview, were you have to have different skills.

I mean, because part of what and I see you prepared, you obviously thought about this as you do about all of your podcast.

Not as much as you do. I'll be honest. You you and Bill Gates have gotten the platinum research back.

Say that. But you but you've been you've been amazingly successful. I mean, you have a great manner on air. I mean, I listen to your podcast and I, I it's hard to believe, but thank you.

Yeah.

No, but you got the curiosity that a good interviewer needs to bring, but you also try to provide the opportunity for whoever your guest is to, you know, talk about something and to be kind of highlighted on that on your platform. And so when I started, I did all the research and I would read the books that people had written and try to figure out what to ask them.

And I found it a little bit I was a little self-conscious because when you want somebody to keep talking and you want to give them that opportunity, you know, there's only so many things you can say. And it's like, OK, fine, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. And then what happened?

So I've had to figure out how to be a little less stilted in the conversation that you have on a podcast. I'm working on it. That's why the reason I like listening to both of you. I also think it's really a good technique for you to to be together. I like, you know, the way Monica will interject herself and ask a question. That's the Howard Stern model, which is so unbelievably successful.

Yes, yes, yes. I mean, as you know, Howard Stern kept saying if only it would be on my show, you would win. I mean, he may have been right. I don't know, because when I finally did his, I was on for three and a half hours.

I mean, imagine that three and a half hours.

And so when I would walk down the street, people would shout at me.

I heard John Howard. I just listened to you on Howard Stern. The place I go to get my haircut, I come out of it one day, like a week after I'd done the interview and it had played. And a guy throws open the door of his office and he goes, I heard John Howard Stern.

You were great. I called my mom. I called my dad.

I was like, wow, OK, Howard, you are probably right. No, yeah.

There is no experience like doing his show. And what he's great at and what happened when you were on is everyone is likeable. There's something about him that makes everyone very human. And I think his audience, more than any other audience, you could have gone to their trust in him and their willingness to hear you out and give you your day in court. I don't think a good percentage of those folks were Hillary supporters. You think not?

Yeah, that's what I kind of always give him credit for. I think he's actually done more for gay rights than most people of all the activists. I think he's probably done more because his base doesn't think that way and he has their ear. And that's incredibly important. And yes, people love you. I hope you heard the feedback like he used to call after call these guys. Like, I fucking thought I hated George and also, like, they were doing 180s.

They didn't know what to do with themselves.

One of the things that I admire about him, which he's very open about, is, you know, is how much he's worked on himself. Yes. You know, he went into therapy. He has really dug deep. And I think it shows in the quality of his interviews.

Now, don't you look, my wife at the beginning of finding out I liked him was like, doesn't that guy throw baloney at women's asses? And I was like, yes, there was a period where he did that. But what I'll applaud him for is he did not succumb to fear that if I evolve in real time and I change that, I will lose my audience. Or rather, he at least didn't value that fear as much as he valued evolving in real time.

And I think that's really admirable of him. I do, too, or almost out of time.

I just got the. Oh, you got a you got to. But I did happen. I have one more question that is, I think important. OK, you two. OK, so we'll do six or seven more on our left.

If you gave Howard three hours, you give us five. OK, go ahead, Monica.

My question is about Kamala and how when you saw her kind of get. All this, you know, like you said, it was an exhale for so many women and men this time around to see a woman up there. And I just wonder, like, it brings up all these feelings up. There's only one spot. There's only one space for a woman. And like, she got it and you didn't get it. And did it bring up any of those feelings?

No, no, I really didn't know because, you know, it's a funny thing to say, but it kind of goes way back to the beginning. I always believe that we're in a relay race. And if you care about human rights, human dignity, women's progress, whatever, the positive side of the historic ledger is that you are focused on, you've got to applaud the progress that we make.

Now, I would not be happy if any woman, you know were in that position about Octomom.

Well, you know, she's not somebody that I have followed politically.

But there are some there are some of these, you know, women in politics who you just feel like they want to slam the door on whoever comes next. But to have Kamala in this role, her sister Maya was one of my senior leaders on my 2016 campaign.

So I'm very personally attached to her and invested in her success. And it made me feel really, really good. It made me feel like, OK, another barrier down. And let's keep opening up the pipeline. Let's keep bringing more people and not just women, but, you know, people of color, you know, LGBTQ. Let's make sure that everybody truly does have a chance because we say that that's what we're standing for. But do we really mean it?

Do we make it possible?

Obviously not in every way that we should. So I was thrilled.

And, you know, after the race was called for, Joe and Kamala, I mean, she called me right away and, you know, it just lit me up. I just was so thrilled. And I can't wait to see her on the world stage because it's such a repudiation of everything the Trump and his enablers we're trying to do to our country.

And we have a lot of work to do to repair the damage, but she'll be a great asset there.

OK, here's my last question. And it is now the only political one I'm going to ask you and I'm asking you, because this is a debate I will have probably for the next three months at dinner parties and people will maybe accuse me of not challenging this idea with someone of your stature, knowledge and everything. So I'm opening myself up to being wrong right now. So let me just say that when I look at the numbers, the total numbers, yes, he won the popular vote.

It is very scary to me that it was by that small of a margin. And when I try to make sense of it, the thing that I keep coming back to that I feel is happening is a very delicate thing to lay out. But here's what I think. I think our side on the left, progressives or Democrats, whatever you want to say, I think we have a lot of really ethical and noble objectives. And I think those are dismantling systemic racism.

I think it's securing rights for LGBTQ communities. But I also think that takes up most of the airtime on our side.

And I think a huge, huge percentage of this country is poor or in poverty and white and straight. And if I were them if I'm the woman in the trailer with two babies who are hungry and dirty diapers, and I hear the left saying she's experiencing white privilege, I can imagine where those people don't think we have a plan for them. And I'm scared about that. Our messaging. I want us to be more clear that we have a plan for everyone to join prosperity and everyone to be middle class, and that it's not just these marginalized groups that we're putting all of our attention to.

That's a dangerous thing to say. But I'm curious what you think of that.

You know, I don't believe it has to be either or. But I think you're right to ask the question, because I recognize that it's really difficult to break through on economic plans, on creating new jobs and revitalizing a lot of the country that, you know, feels left out and left behind. That's kind of boring. And the press doesn't, you know, really get it. You know, just as an aside, in 2016, analysts did a word search of everything that I said in the entire campaign.

And the most common thing I talked about was jobs. But I mean, you could take a lie detector test and never know that, right? I rolled out plans on everything from, you know, how we were going to enhance jobs and renewable energy, to how we were going to invest in poor communities and all the rest of it. But because we live in this time where controversy, the algorithms favorite drive it. And you think that's what is the only reality we've got to figure out.

And we're going to talk to people like Tristan Harris. How do we get the broader message across, you know? Joe Biden, a lot of the people who worked for me were in his campaign either in the beginning or after he got the nomination. They talk to me about his policies. He has fabulous policies. I mean, if we could snap our fingers and you could pass his jobs and economic policy and his climate policy and his health care policy, it would lift everybody up.

Yeah, I mean, it goes without saying. We both agree that although the right is saying that they care about that group I just detailed, they don't really have any plan to help lift them up. But I don't think that's what's relevant.

They are total prisoners to very powerful special interests. And so we've got to make a clearer, sharper case, just as you said. And, you know, it's tough. I'm not giving up on it because I think it's absolutely essential. It's just really difficult when you're running against someone who sucks up all the oxygen, saying outrageous things, insulting people. You remember in 2016, I'd be giving a speech about how we were going to, you know, bring broadband to poor communities in rural areas that will get them connected to the Internet and get their kids and get themselves better economic opportunities.

They wouldn't cover that. They would cover an empty podium because it was like they were unable to turn away from the car wreck. They had to see what he was going to do next.

In an attention economy, they're incentivized to get attention and get the get the clicks, get the eyeballs, get the likes, get whatever.

And so I've had this conversation with some of the people around Biden. We got to think differently about this, because somehow he's got to break through the noise because Trump's not going away. He may, you know, have to finally leave the White House, but he's going to turn around the next day and say he's running for president again and then he's going to be out there. He's going to be having rallies because it's like lifeblood to him and he's going to be probably owning, you know, some kind of a media outlet where he's going to be peddling his stuff every day.

Trump steaks, there are good steaks. Don't buy good steaks. Yeah. And all the rest of it that goes with it.

But so I think your question is a really key one is a really smart one. We're going to need a lot more help. Traditional politics. And Joe is a traditional politician. Nothing wrong with that. He came up that way. He cares deeply about people. Honest to God. He will give you the shirt off his back. He's the kind of human being that you want to be a leader. We've got to figure out how to translate that and everything he wants to do into a narrative that captures those eyeballs.

And, boy, I would tell you, I mean, you guys are the experts in this. I would welcome your thoughts. I know they would, because we want that, you know, that woman in the trailer and we want that farmer on the tractor and we want that kid, you know, who has to drop out of school because his dad died in an industrial accident. He's now the sole support. We want them to believe in the future.

Yeah. And we want them to believe that there is going to be opportunities that they will be given to make the most out of their own lives.

Yeah, we're bad, bad marketers. I mean, I agree with you. White privilege. I absolutely agree with once it is detailed to me and I recognize what it means, but that that took me five conversations to recognize my oh, I would have been in jail as a drug addict if I were black. I would have been shot by a car like I get it now. But on the surface, oh, I have privilege. It doesn't feel like it.

So, yeah, that's the one for me that the message could be better.

The country is being so divided, there's so much anger and rancor and deep, profound misunderstandings and differences and there are ways to talk.

But unfortunately, our media, particularly our social media, does not really support those ways of having you said it took you five conversations. That's pretty impressive that, you know, you engaged in it. You listen, people responded. How do you do that on a national level?

How do you do it in 140 characters, 140 characters where the algorithm is saying, you know, no, no, you want to go down this rabbit hole, you want to follow this conspiracy theory, we should check in on this going forward. Yes.

I love the fact that you are focused on it and your podcast reaches so many people invite people to kind of be part of the solution. How do we deal with it? How do we help ourselves? Because it comes down to not just the politicians. How do we help ourselves have a, you know, a more productive, more positive future?

Well, we interviewed Yuval Harari recently, right, leading up to the Election Day, and he said, if you're open to an outsider's perspective, I can tell you what it looks like from here in Israel. It looks to us like your number one enemy, America's number one enemy is each other, is not Russia anymore, is not China. It's not communism. It's not socialism. It's each other. And he said that. Yeah, that's a very.

Dangerous position, and I couldn't agree more, and we got to be the first to say there's is a tiny little thing I've decided, I want to tell me if you think this is good or bad, I'm done saying I'm a Democrat. I vote often Democratic. I vote in liberal ways. I vote progressive. But I am not this thing that cannot be an identity. I am a father. I'm a son. I'm a friend. I'm a I'm a many things before I am this label that we invented one hundred and eighty years ago, you know.

Well, but part of what you're saying is really important, which is we've now reached a point in our country where your partisan identity is more important to how you see the world and the decisions you make than anything else you just said. It's more important than making sure that there are good public colleges for your kid when he or she grows up and wants to go to school. It's more important than making sure everybody has health care because, you know, in the middle of a pandemic, that makes sense.

So it's more important than getting a preventable disease by wearing a mask like the hundred percent you would be in the outgroup of your party if you don't take that, because that's what tribalism does.

Yeah, people are being forced to pick sides, you know, what group are you a part of? And I think you're right to say we need to break that down. And everybody has a complex identity. Everybody leads a multifaceted life. And so let's be, you know, recognizing that in each other and let's be, you know, trying to find some common ground, even if it just starts off as a postage stamp that we can then build on so that we can find ways that, you know, try to lift us up instead of tear us further apart.

Well, and you're just canceling your future. If I look at your own life, you are a lawyer. OK, well, if you were only a lawyer, then you weren't going to be first lady. And if you weren't first lady, you weren't going to be a senator. And if you're only a senator, you want to be secretary of state, your life's over. If your identities don't evolve and are flexible, your team that.

Yeah, I love I love you. You're going to have to take it. You're just going to have to take it on the chin. I love you. Your eyes are dazzling and crystal blue.

We'd love to talk to you again with still more time from you at another point. I would love that from the bottom of my heart. I have listened to you and me both and you're fantastic at it. I'm not surprised. But again, a lot of people give this a shot. It's not the biggest success rate in your crushin. I think you're wonderful at it. So I wish you a ton of luck with that and I hope you have as much fun as I do.

Thank you. I do. Thank you both so much.

OK, when you're done with your house, come to ours and help organize ours. I will be on the road because this is what keeps me sane. Take care, everybody. Stay safe and healthy. Bye bye.

So stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

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Just go to Frame Bridge Dotcom Promo Code, Tax Free Ambridge Dotcom Promo Codecs and now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soul mate Monica Padman. Action, you're on go. You're on Candid Camera. Oh, you're on Candid Camera.

Say hi to your family. They were just behind scene. They were watching you say hi to a show showcases.

I was laughing hysterically when the shopping cart tipped over. He laughed and the manager tried to throw you out of the store.

He laughed and laughed and laughed. Can I let the listeners know what you're wearing? Sure. I thought I was getting fucking invaded when you showed up. I was like, there's a paratrooper outside.

You're in all army green. Yeah. And you got combat boots on. And I said, did you intentionally look like a soldier today? And you said. No, you did not that didn't even occur to you. I regret my shoes now. Why? Because you're right. It's that combo that makes it very soldier s.

Yeah, but that's cute, though, for a little woman to wear soldier gear.

That's true. It's a cool look. It's also Pinki. It's like if I wear a dress like the big guy in a dress. That's cute. Yeah, I would think that was cute.

Yeah. I wasn't supposed to buy any more pandi.

Oh jeez. You did you want more. Just this one.

Oh I mean, look, if you're I was done with it but then it popped up on my Instagram. Oh is that what I was going to say. If you really have the goal of not buy any more, then you must not let yourself go look at them, because that that's just that's like me hanging out in a bar trying to get sober.

No, no, I, I mean I should on follow them I guess. But Yeah. Uh but there are so many things have I mean it's been months and I've seen lots of stuff pop up and I'm like man, I don't even have the inclination because they just have so many.

But you don't have the room is what you don't have.

You don't have any more room than the green shower walls are fake favorite color. Exactly. Yes. Not Bill Gates. His favorite color is blue.

But that was so reassuring because our real favorite color, yours mine is blue, but I say green so that people will think I'm a genius, you know.

Yeah. Oh, what is it I want to tell the world about my beard or my high frequency illusion, but I can't do it safely. I'll just say this. I was pulling out of my driveway today and I realized my street, which I obviously know the name of, just never put two and two together.

My street is a word that you can say it to the crowd.

Such a long road and you don't even live on it.

Then when you were OK, do it makes you feel comfy. OK, the name is connected to the crowd. Yes, it's very royal.

It's Quincy Illusion Areas.

Hello. Hello.

Speci delivery from my beautiful baby son.

Aaron and I are watching Monika Ontake.

What is it I'm doing undoing how you started then?

I no, but people are into it. Well, we're we're watching it and it's a little off brand for us. Is it scary? Isn't supposed to be scary. Revolves around a murder and who done it. But it's pretty melodramatic.

OK, they have such good cliffhangers at the end of every episode. I think midway through each episode we're like, I don't know if this shows for us. And then they get us with the cliffhanger ending every single day.

I'm not going to watch it. Oh, you're not? No. We love Hugh Grant. Do you love Hugh Grant?

Yeah, but I'll be by myself. I'll be too scared.

I don't think you'll be scared. Yeah, right. Aaron, you won't be scared. Are you sure? Positive. Aaron thinks I'm much braver than I am or he knows how brave you are, which is very brave to watch it again.

OK, yeah I prefer that Aaron said he's going to watch it. Oh my God.

I'll be so jealous if you guys are watching TV without me.

Well, why don't you come to why don't you guys just wait for me to watch? Because we were in the sand dunes and we wanted to watch a show.

We were heavily criticized in the sand dunes.

As I told you, the guys that were camping across the road from us thought we were not masculine because we watch TV at night instead of drinking beer and listening to heavy metal. Yeah. And they tried to embarrass us or emasculate us because we watch TV. So then we had to take our TV watching inside the motor home.

Oh my God, it worked. No, not really. Just here. We just for some reason are more comfortable inside.

So we watched. So we wanted to start a new show together. You watch it on your packs.

No, listen to this thing I did. I brought my Apple TV and then I use my packs as a hot spot and then hooked that up to the TV. Oh, I did watch my pajamas.

Hold on. Hold on a watch. Absolutely.

And I watch my packs every night in bed. OK, I was watching Westworld by myself. Oh, OK.

And I barely saw you on your pony all day. No, I didn't watch anything on my pony or.

Yeah. You were using FaceTime and stuff.

Oh yeah. You were the saw.

OK, well I just did therapy in my packs so he knows the most and the docs get to all your problems but oh he's like one that's fun.

You could call friends. Yeah.

Have a party pony party or whatever. I don't even know where the story went. But I do want to add one thing about the dunes, which was we were already being accused of being weak and cowardly for watching TV at night and then. We pulled up from a ride and I was listening to Michael Jackson quite loud on the in the razor, so you can hear it everywhere. And then the guys who are emasculating us immediately came over and the guy goes, you listen to Michael Jackson when you're in the dunes.

And I said, yeah. And he said, I listen to speed metal.

And I was like, OK, I listen to Human Nature by Michael Jackson like, oh, this is well, you know, it be considered a problem that this is a good story. It has a silver lining. And you know what that silver lining is? I 15 years ago, this would have been a real challenge to our manhood.

And we would have we would have thought those guys at some point in this trip, but we felt so secure that we didn't mind at all.

They kept trying to point out what weaklings we were and it didn't bother me.

I'm glad you're not a teenager anymore. Yeah, me too. Yeah, I spent too many years being a teenager.

Good job. Speaking of bravery. Yeah. Guess who's the most brave? You, Hillary. Oh, my God.

Hillary Clinton. Yeah. Oh, Hillary Radman. Clinton.

I loved her. I thought she was playful, like Bill Gates.

While I know she was so playful and I love that she was cleaning, organizing her house from the basement up to the attic.

Yeah, that was adorable. That was. Yes. Yes.

I totally like her and I really think it will never happen. How could it be that we would be great dinner companions if we all want to?

If we all started having dinner together and we could talk about fun ideas, what dinner would you make her? My spaghetti?

Yeah, that's a good one. Would you want to make it like courses?

No, no. You know, when I make spaghetti, I don't even offer a salad. I offer spaghetti and garlic bread. I know I've put out a salad in it. No one touches it because, you know, you're not going to space. There's no space in your tummy. You're not going to use up that valuable real estate with some lettuce.

No, I agree. Yeah. Cause you you don't even eat salad when when I make this good. No, I hate salad when you make spaghetti. Right. But we love salad. Yeah. Otherwise I like salad. We love it but I hate it on spaghetti night. That's right. And she would do ok. What would you make a soup.

I made such a good broccoli and cheese soup on Friday and you didn't bring me any.

I thought about bringing it to the sand dunes but I got nervous about heating.

Oh, God bless you, Aaron.

The baby boy just brought his dad a coffee. Yeah. And that is so nice.

It is so nice. But can I tell you, it's just full circle because I woke Aaron up this morning with a hot coffee and a big plate, a scrambled egg, whites and a little oil.

Well, you don't you weren't sleeping at the house.

Exactly. You weren't at my house when I made Brackley cheese soup. You're all right. You're right.

Ding, ding, ding. You're one you won back to our our number one, Hillary. Yeah, I would probably make courses for her. I would make a soup course. Would you start with nuts?

Oh no. Oh supposed to anyone that sorry. Soup to nuts.

Oh is that what it means. Yeah. Did you not know. That's what soup to nuts me. You say that all the time. I had no idea what it meant.

It's one of my favorite sayings. Yeah. A traditional meal with many courses starts with soup and ends with nuts. So you're getting the whole shebang.

You're fancier than you think you're a royal. I'm very fancy. I'm an aristocrat. I'm an aristocrat. When Kristen, Molly, Amy and I were in Austria, we went to this one really fancy restaurant. Yeah, yeah.

I want you to add the one funny part about, like figuring out how to get reservations and what how many hoops you guys jump through to secure these reservations and that this is the place. Right. You got to and you were the only people. No, no, no, no.

I thought the place was one place that it was a big deal to get into. And then we were the only people there and the food was mediocre at best. But no, we went to this other place that has like a Michelin star is really fancy and delicious.

But there they eat the cheese last. Oh, OK. And we obviously don't do that.

So we were like stupid Americans we love.

And we asked if we could have our cheese first. Oh, yes. Oh my God. Gosh, so rude.

It was rude. They could they did not like that. We were asking that and they were like, are you sure?

Like, yeah, it's really arrogant. That's something I would do. But also we would we don't know better if they've put together this entire meal with like nine stops.

We just couldn't stomach the idea of eating that cheese last. We wanted it first, but I bet if you would have done it as prescribed, it would have been better.

I know some of the cheeses were. Oh, my God. Tasted like gasoline. Oh, bad.

Oh, horrible. Oh, like they had this enormous cheese cart. They bring it out.

There's like levels of. She's so many kinds, and then we ask for some recommendations and then we picked some, but we didn't know really what we were doing.

Were they speaking German or Austrian or whatever?

They had accents, but they're speaking English. OK, motor oil g. Wow. I would have loved it. I refused to eat because I can't be peer pressured. Right.

Do you think this led to your seizure a few days later? Possible. Don't know.

Oh, we haven't said the name. So we can't be sued yet.

You haven't said the name, although there's probably only one restaurant there with a Michelin star.

But anyways, into it all, I can do it. Yes, they gave me a seizure. You should sue.

OK, back to Hillary. I'm so grateful that she chatted with us and gave us her time.

Yeah. And again, you know, this is just an ego thing, but she actually knew us, which is so helpful when you're when you're intimidated to talk to someone you've looked up to for a long time and they actually know you a little.

It's very helpful is it takes the pressure off him. It's what she like took the time to figure that out so that she could. This is partly I will come back up now.

Do you think she took the time to learn or she already knew? I was thinking she already knew.

Either way, it was kind of like, well, don't don't dissect. It is kind if she just was like, who am I talking to?

I better dedicate an hour to learning about who they are. That's kind.

But I would I was allowing myself to believe that for a year or two now she's none of us and like so I think I don't want to dive deep into that.

I don't know. Either way is great news. Yeah, it is. It's a big win. Take the win they say.

Yeah, take the W you know what I hate the most. No, that's a bad way of phrasing it. I hate the most about her. Is that were you. Oh no, no.

This idea that she was so unlikable, she's so likeable. She's a lovely person.

I think she's a lovely person. I'm I'm just trying to really think about what you just said.

Yeah. Think about it. It doesn't not make sense to me. It doesn't make sense to you. I understand that.

And this is, of course, steeped in misogyny, be that as it may, that that's what it is. So many people have not experienced someone as ambitious, as confident, as worldly as all the many things.

She is a very successful lawyer, secretary of state, a senator, first lady. There are lots of men who have not had a woman in their life like that. And they're afraid of that. Yeah. Oh, I know.

OK, so you understand. I understand.

The reason is atrocious to me. Yeah. I just said I was just clarifying whether or not you understood.

Like, I thought your first statement is that you don't understand how they didn't pick her. I understand it.

Well, I understand bums me out.

I understand that those people are misogynistic. I am not giving anyone a pass by saying like like we sometimes do with Trump where it's like, well, they feel left out or, you know, which is true.

And I, I actually do see that point of view a little more. Ah, I have a little more compassion for that. I do not have compassion for men who are threatened by confident women.

Well sorry. So I totally disagree with those feelings.

I think they're abhorrent and I also am sympathetic to it because those guys grew up in the exact same world that she grew up in, which she talks about, which is when she looks around. There was no women on the wall of her elementary school. There were no female leaders. So those men also grew up in that world where they're not used to that either. They didn't see that. This is a new thing. New things are scary. It's not where we're going, thank God.

But I also think everyone here is a victim of this culture. It's not like some person chose to be misogynistic. We got downloaded misogyny.

Yes. You don't choose to be misogynistic, but you can choose to not be. And I agree.

Yes, I agree with both those statements. So the people who are can make better choices.

The problem, I think, that us progressives have is in our messaging, it sounds like we're blaming individuals and you can blame individuals. That's fine. But what is much more productive and much more realistic is that you must blame systems. Systems are flawed currently and the systems themselves are misogynistic and the systems themselves and the culture is I on the left. I'm not blaming individuals.

I think we're all products of this place we grew up in. And I think we would benefit from changing the systems in the culture that that yield these results. These are the results. It's just like that person we had on this upstream.

Right. I, I agree with all of this. I'm just saying this scapegoat of likeability is not true. She's a very likable person. We I have for an. I told Loveleen we wanted to talk to her a longer, so I totally agree with that. That's just not. I think they, they, I think well I do think those people generally thought she's just not likable. I think they, they thought that, they didn't think, wow, I'm, this is not how my mother acted and that's the woman I trusted.

And she doesn't seem nurturing. And, you know, I don't think they dug deep. I think to them what they thought they were experiencing was she's not likable. It's not it's not true. She's likable.

Yeah. And she was on Howard Stern and she was likable. Everyone want to say that she is likable. I like that. Every other headline was she's not likable. She's unlikable. It's like that's so horrible to have to hear about yourself when it's not true.

It's not true. And she's smart enough to know that it's not true. But I think she is clear.

She is totally super likable and she has to walk a tightrope that no one else has to walk either.

She's being weak because she doesn't turn around, tell Trump to stop fucking standing behind her and then that's its own thing, that everyone that scares everyone or she's too emotional.

And we don't trust women to be in the White House because they're emotional and they'll hit the fucking and emotional.

She's some sort of. She's a robot. Yes. Yes.

She's in a lose lose situation as most women are as watch the doc.

If you haven't multiple men I know who've watched it had a huge response. That's one of the first like, quote, female centric docs that I feel I've noticed that from. Like our friend Eric said, he cried. Yeah, it's a heartbreaking story.

Yeah. Yes. She was the most competent from the class that she met Bellen. Like as a student. She spoke at the graduation on law teams. She was the best. She's one of the best secretaries we ever had. And all people cared about what her haircut was, whether she took his last name or didn't, the fact that she didn't have a child while they were in the governor's mansion. You know, all these things that have nothing to do with the job she was asked to execute.

And it's just completely unfair and hypocritical and heartbreaking. It is a very sad, sad documentary.

But her resilience, I know it almost makes her, you know, that much more likeable and admirable because it is heartbreaking. It never Broecker he still hasn't broken her. I know she had like the most humiliating experience a human being can have. Please pick me. The whole country said no, and she keeps being productive.

I'm just, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, but the country said yes, but and so in that position, I would retire. Well, oh, that was one thing I kind of wanted to know is she decided to put her resources into the future to helping the problems that she faced. And I thought that was so awesome. And that did remind me of Stacey Abrams in Georgia, who did the same thing because she ran for governor, lost.

And then people were like, are you going to run for President Reagan, run for president? She is like, no, I'm going to put all my efforts into registering voters. Yeah, and voter suppression. And she did that. She registered over eight hundred thousand voters and like in Georgia, was decided by what, six thousand voters went crazy.

Yeah. It's so it is so admirable to see someone be like, I'm going to use this for good.

I'm going to pivot, I'm going to do something else. This is what Tristan said as well. Like he's in Google hoping to move it three degrees or two degrees. And at some point he goes, you know what? I actually might be more effective on the outside track changes.

And he has been it also just shows their commitment to the country like it's not that they want to be president. Right? Right. They want to be the person. It's that they really do want to help and progress. So that's where they're best suited to do so. Anyway, I love women, but women today. I love women. Yeah, that's fine. It's fun. You love women.

Oh, God. So, so much more than men.

I would never pick to be around all men. Well, you I do pick to be around.

What I like to do is spend like eighty percent of my time with women and then twenty percent with just men. Yeah. So I can get it all out of my system. Sure. Talk about boobs and butt but some buttonholing boobs and butts and bubbles with me.

That's right.

OK, so you mentioned Malcolm Gladwell, the token I have said this before about I'm happy to keep saying that's not what it's called. The episode is called The Hug Heard around the world. The hug heard around the world.

Oh, my God. How about that dinner?

Hilary Malcolm, Dr. Eric Topol and Charlie Adam Grant and Charlie with his shirt off and you and I.

Oh, wow. Dingle Dingle's spray spray spray.

Oh, let me think who else I'd want there. I know I don't want it to feel left out, but there's only it's in a train car in there. However, I just listed off Bell of course. Got a bell there.

Well although I to bring a plus one. OK, I actually don't think Bill would be a good dinner guests, because he's so smart that I think everyone would go like, well, we should all just shut up and he should just talk out loud for an hour.

Yes, I met Bill Clinton.

I was like, no, no, no, no, no. Bill Gates.

He actually might not be a great dinner guest because I think I would feel stupid taking up any of the minutes that he could be educating us all.

Interesting. You know what I'm saying? You agree a little bit. I do. I see I see where you're coming from.

But like, no one should talk with him if he's there. Well, he's a mansplaining. All of us know. He likes to. He likes to vote. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he likes to talk about movies. He'd want to know our spy games.

He loves it. It's so clever. All right.

I think that's all for Hillary. OK, boy, do we like her, man.

I really wanted to keep talking to her. Oh, and you know what?

She kind of invited us to give tips and I'm going to watch her podcast.

No, like just in general how to reach the public.

Oh, she did. Yes. Well, that's what I heard. Oh, that's great. I got to listen, see if I can find that place. And she said, you're going to come back.

I know. I hope Republicans could listen to it. Do you hope so? I hope so.

If they can't, then we have a problem like I get. Well, would you listen to Tucker Carlson on a we can't make that the same.

That's what I'm saying.

Like one person, you have to you have to you have to be generous and make a steel man think you have to pick the person like the person that we hate the most. You have to be you have to match it.

So they hated her. Unfortunately, it breaks my heart. I don't like it, but I got to steel me on this.

Although I got to say, if Stern had Tucker Carlson, I'd listen in one second and I can't stand that guy. I know what to say. Okay, well, what if I'd lost all of our momentum? We had great momentum.

We were like, yes, and she was great. Love you.

And then I ruined it. I was about to land the plane and then I pulled up on the yoke. As hard as I was, I thought I saw a bird on the runway.

I don't know how to land a plane. Oh, remember, I've landed some two hundred and sixty planes.

What? I know how to land the plane.

No, I mean, you don't know how to land a plane.

Well, first of all, you think you do know how to land a plane and I know how to land this plane. This plane is different than a plane. This doctor knows how to land this plane by.