Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert I'm Dan Shepard. This is a very, very exciting episode for me. If you've heard the show, you know, I'm an anthropology major. Talk about it ad nauseum. And, of course, the queen of anthropology. Well, Margaret Mead's up there, but Jane Goodall, my goodness, Jane Goodall. What a human being Jane Goodall is.
She is a primatologist, an anthropologist and an advocate for the environment, animals and the natural world. For the last 30 years, Jane has been focused on biodiversity protection, fighting the climate crisis, addressing intensive farming, empowering young people through the youth program, roots and shoots and so much more. She also has a new podcast, the Jane Goodall Hope Cast. So please check out Jane's new podcast, the Jane Goodall Hope Cast. Enjoy the queen of Primatology.
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How are you doing? Well, I've never been as exhausted and busy in my whole life as during this lockdown since March. It's been every single day being virtually Jane.
And, yeah, generally you would be traveling around and talking and within that schedule is built in some little breaks for yourself, I'd imagine.
Yes. This is no break at all. Since March, it's been virtually every single day.
Are you being held captive against your will? Because you can signal us with this, like raise your eyebrows if someone is forcing you to do all of this?
Oh, I'm being forced to. Right. But then I agree to it, so. Well, it is a huge delight for us to talk to you. We've been attempting to schedule this for a while. I think you were going to speak at UCLA, my alma mater, and we were going to speak in person, which I was excited about. But I'll take you any way I can get you.
OK, I was hoping today we could go through all the stuff you're up to that you're working on your podcast, Jane Goodall Institute, Roots and Shoots.
But if it's OK with you, I would really hope to frame this in a broader theme of being female. I think today that's a very relevant thing for us to be looking at how a female perspective can be so helpful, why there should be more leadership roles for women and the value of that. And I can't imagine someone more significant in that way than you. I think you're in the Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Mount Rushmore of women who have really put their stamp on the world.
You reject that like being compared to her?
Well, she is such an icon.
Yeah, I hate to break it to you. So are you. Yeah. Well, OK, so when you started your work, I think nineteen fifty seven, maybe the first time you go to Gambi to study not chumpy know.
Nineteen fifty seven. I went to Kenya and met Lewis Leakey and you know then I had to go back to the UK for a year while he found the money because you know I hadn't been to college. Right. Who was going to give money to this young untrain girl to do something is absurd. Was going to study chimpanzees in a forest.
Yeah. Not a lot of people you could have pointed to to say, hey, look how good this works. But yes, you went back. You went to Cambridge. I think you were the eighth person ever to get a PhD without having an undergraduate degree, which I think is fascinating. I am curious how many there are now. But when you started, very, very male dominated field, is that safe to say?
Well, yes and no. I mean, there was almost nobody going out studying animals in the wild. There were three people and they were all males. You know, Koczela was studying mountain gorilla and there were two American men in South Africa studying check them up, baboons. But that was it. Oh, somebody else out there.
OK, well, the thing that you were unique and novel in and that you got a ton of criticism for, can I just say one thing? I'm going to tell you, I was an anthropology major, so I worshipped you and I wanted to do primatology. So just know that there's a lot of baggage for my love for you in this. But my understanding is that you were really the first person to be doing any theology where you were not naming the subjects numbers.
So generally when people studied animals prior to you, they would just say one A, one B, whatever their nomenclature was, and you were really the first to name them and recognize their personalities.
Well, remember, I hadn't been to college when I first went out. Lewis Leakey, my mentor, you know, he's the one who picked me for this study and he wanted a woman. That was the one key thing he wanted to woman. He felt they might be more patient in the field. So that was one good thing for me. And secondly, he wanted somebody who hadn't been to college because he wanted a mind uncluttered by the reductionist thinking of the animal behavior, people of the time.
So there was nobody out in the field and the numbers were given by most of these people to the animals in labs and animals in captive situations. So the reason I named them, well, why wouldn't I do it? It's just natural to give an animal a name, not a number.
Yeah, well, really quick about Lewis, do you think maybe his confidence in you and the other two women that he shepherded through Dian Fossey, who then went and studied gorillas and then I can't pronounce your name. Who did orangutans through Galdikas? Yes. Yes. Do you think maybe he was in a position to feel that way because his own wife was so prolific as an archaeologist and they had made this? Recoveries together, do you think that made him more open minded to that?
It's quite possible. I don't know. I hadn't thought of that before, but yeah, it's possible.
I think that in general, the criticism for you naming them was you were kind of displaying empathy and empathy was the opposite of objectivity, which science is going for. That was the singular kind of criticism. And I have to say that sounds very, very similar to the outmoded male position that women in general are too emotional and not objective. They're emotional, not logical. And that to me, the critique of you is more than what's on the surface at that time.
Well, it's absolutely true that when I got to Cambridge, big criticism was you cannot have empathy with your subject. You're going to be objective and just no space for having empathy. And I disagreed so much because when you have empathy with your subject and they do something extraordinary, if you have empathy, you say to yourself, well, I think I know why they did that. And then then you can put on your scientific logic and say, OK, well, let's prove am I right or am I wrong and ask questions.
I listen to your interview with Dave Matthews, which, by the way, is a thrilling friendship that you guys have on your podcast, the Jane Goodall Hope case. And you gave the example of seeing a young chimp break her arm and then go to her mother.
I think what you are describing was when this little baby broke her arm and she was the first baby and the mother was in experience. So every time the baby cried, which obviously it was very painful, the mother just hugged her tighter, which made her cry louder.
So but, you know, there are this many examples of chimpanzees showing true altruism to each other like an adult male rescuing an orphaned infant who isn't even related to him and saving his life.
Yeah, but at that point, I love that you made is yes. I had these emotions. I was heartbroken for this inexperienced mother. But my notes are as thorough as notes could be.
It is as objective as one can be. One doesn't preclude the other. And I think that was such a novel idea. Yeah, you're absolutely right.
It was tears were pouring down my face because even this little baby was named little Jane. She was the only one who's ever been named for me. And, you know, she was three months old at that time. We haven't watched many infants growing up. So she was about the fifth, I think. And it was just tragic because it was the mother in such confusion, the baby so badly hurt, there was nothing we could do.
So I'm going to go even further with this. I would argue that your novel approach of having empathy opened your eyes in a way that someone studying them, even for the same duration that you studied them, they would have missed things.
I think they would not have been open because they were this other this animal, this lower thing that they would have missed the parallels. I would even argue your enormous contribution, the legendary contribution, is that you discovered that chimpanzees use tools that was thought to be something only humans could do. And in a great definer of what made us human. And you demonstrated that and you kind of destroyed that fantasy. Yes.
And also, we were supposed to be the only creatures to have personality, the only creatures to have minds capable of Problem-Solving, and especially the only creatures with the emotions. And, you know, I was taught as a child by my dog.
Of course, animals have personalities, minds and emotions. It's ridiculous. You know, when the scientist told me that when I got to Cambridge, I really wonder, did they really believe what they were saying or was it just they couldn't prove it. Therefore, it's better not to talk about it.
Well, I have a whole theory on why they have, because I think it serves an actual purpose to alleviate our ethical issues with how they're treated. But before we get there, you could also say they have culture as well, which is something we would have thought was only us, right? Yeah, absolutely. A dense culture.
If you look at one population versus another, they have their own unique set of things they've learned and are passing on and traditions and all these things that certainly meet the definition of culture.
Yeah, behavior passed from one generation to the next through observation and imitation and practice. That is a definition of human culture. But when I first mentioned culture, I didn't have any other examples really, but it just seemed to. To that, of course, as you see the babies watching then in other places where I'd heard there was banging open, not with rocks, which can be chimps, don't do the young ones there learning that. So of course, they're conscious.
But I was given so much flak over that. You cannot talk about culture. Yeah.
So I think the fact that you were naive enough, having not been in college and then again, I really think it has a lot to do with you being a woman in that situation that you were empathetic and that through that we get some of the greatest discoveries about that species. And I really do think other people would have missed it.
I think you're right that many people would. I really do. And, you know, I've been reading In The Shadow of Man, the first book I wrote about the gun Beecham's it's going to be one chapter a month. And it just took me right back and I was reading and thinking every little detail is there. It was magic to read what I was learning about their different personalities. I mean it was just magical to see how I did it back then.
Now, as the person is, Jane, the person there had to be terrible days in the field, there had to be incredible loneliness at times. You were in your 20s, there was not you, Ziggurat.
Being alone is very different from being lonely. And I've always loved being alone. I mean, even when I was a child, I would climb the tree out there because I'm in my family home and spend ages alone up in the branches and I go out with my dog onto the cliff tops on my own. And they were quite wild in those days. So I've always loved being alone. The only time I was a little bit lonely, you know, my mother came with me to start well again really quick.
I think that's hysterical as well. That's another male female thing. You were twenty four and they insist your mother joined you at that. Wouldn't have happened to a male scientist.
No, they did. That's not true. They did not insist my mother join me. They said I couldn't be out in the field on my own.
Oh ok. OK, ok. And she volunteered to come ok. And it was amazing. People say I was brave, I wasn't brave. That was what I wanted to do. She was you know, she was left alone with these big baboons invading the tent because they're very entrepreneurial and they quickly grab anything that might be a new food buffalos wandering around, snakes, spiders. She was the brave one and she was a novelist. Yeah, well, she wrote a couple of books.
OK, that's two more than I've written.
So I'm going to call her a novelist. All right. So obviously had our own set of determination.
I was all I'm pointing out, a determined person, the whole family, like you said, the time you were lonely.
When she first left, it was just before I saw to using and I really missed having somebody to share the excitement with. You know, I have this cook and a guy driving the boat and they listened. They were interested, but it didn't mean as much to them as it would have to.
Yeah. I mean, why wouldn't the chimps use tools?
Of course, they weren't high five ing each other when you discovered that they were getting termites out.
Now, there was no period where, of course, because I'm trapped in my own point of view. And as much as I may have been interested in that, were you ever at any moment going, wow, but I'm also missing out on this huge human experience. I could be in London having drinks with friends. Did that ever into your mind? Were you ever concerned about what you were, quote, missing?
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely not. OK, although I'd been very social before I left, you know, I wasn't a little shy retiring creature. I was out there having fun and going to dances and things like that. I didn't miss it.
I didn't miss it because you were so focused and so fulfilled by this pursuit.
Yeah, I was there in the forest with all the magic of the forest around me and learning new things every day and all these amazing chimpanzees with a different way of doing things complete magic.
Now, for those of the listeners who aren't super familiar with just what level of threat different primates are, you're arguably with the most dangerous, wouldn't you agree, to most dangerous.
Yeah. Chimpanzees as compared to, say, gorillas or other big, great apes.
Well, I mean, gorillas can lose their temper. This one young man who is studying chimpanzees in Congo, and he was attacked ferociously by a male gorilla who'd obviously just had a confrontation with another male and he was mad. And how this guy survived, I simply don't know. And, you know, orangutans can be violent and they're all strong. So, yes, chimpanzees with each other, they can kill each other. It's lucky they didn't want to kill me.
Let me just say, from a personal point of view, I have trekked up to the gorillas. I felt pretty safe. And then we also went into a force on the hunt for chimpanzees. And there were a lot more rules and it was taken much more seriously. Like this has the odds of going bad far more than the gorilla experience would?
Well, that's probably because of the people running the program. OK, I'll blame them. But as you point out, they're incredibly strong, four times stronger than a full grown adult human, eight times stronger than me, I'm sure.
I mean, they are very, very strong and they can be very, very violent. And where the scary moments. Yes, there were.
There were. Oh, yeah. But none that ever made you rethink or question what you were going to do. No, of course not. I'm obviously not.
I didn't. I couldn't let. Was Liteky done, Kundai? No, no, no, no, no. Yeah, that's someone's approval. I would certainly be in search of.
Did you always have that obstinate disposition going through life or did it sort of come when you had this passion? I think I probably always had it, yeah, I think you're born with that or not. Yeah, you were first and I have a pretty bad dose of it. Can I ask you, while you were watching chimpanzees over these many, many years, how were the male female roles in chimpanzees similar to our own?
And how are they different? And was that something that interested you? Well, I was interested in everything, what I loved was watching mother child behavior, development of infants, relations with brothers and sisters. But the males are dominant. They have a dominance hierarchy. They dominate all females and they're very promiscuous, which, of course, some people are, too. So, you know, they're not all monogamous. And so basically, when a female comes into oestrus, when she's ready for mating, she may be mated by all the males, went off to the other.
The very sexually popular old female Flo was mated 72 times in one day.
Well, and is good. So she was pretty exhausted.
But, you know, she was followed by this string of males and the adolescents who, you know, don't really get it go. They will hide behind a bush and shake a little branch. And sometimes the female will look at the alpha male and then creep up behind the bush.
And is it there's even evidence. I remember reading a paper called Lion in Primates and how they'll also give a call like that. There's perhaps a predator in the area so that all the Alphas run towards it and then they get a shot at the female. All the Alphas are out.
I think that sort of thing happens sometimes, too, but mostly that happens when, for example, chimps hunt sometimes and hunting is a very exciting thing. So if the top male sometimes shows possessiveness and other males are not supposed to meet his female, that happens often. But if the alpha male gets distracted and is looking up at the hunt, that's when the other males run in and get it go. And if the alpha male, the possessive male catches them, who do you think he attacks?
Oh, I hate my horse.
Go girl for the female. Yeah, yeah. That's pretty. That's kind of consistent with humans.
Yeah, yeah. If he attacked the male the female would run off and have more fun.
Oh well I didn't think of a strategic goal as creating another window of opportunity. So I have a quick question for you.
Does it correlate perfectly with sexual dimorphism like is the level of male dominance proportional to how much bigger males are than females in species?
Well, certainly between chimps and bonobos, the male bonobo is more or less the same size as the female. And you don't get the same system of sexual relations and bonobos as well.
They have a much broader sexual experience than Pann Troglodyte is. Right. They're doing more things.
Well, the female bonobo is having this pink swelling all the time. So they solve a lot of disputes through sexual behavior and females reassure each other by rubbing those sexual swellings together. So I was so glad Louis Leakey didn't send me to study them because the geographic would never have supported it, because they couldn't in those days have had all these pink bottoms in the pictures.
So there's a wonderful photograph in the I think it's the second geographic article which would have been and let's see, sixty nine, I think, and said photograph taken by my husband, Hugo. It's a wonderful photo of five males sitting in a row. They're all a little aroused, looking at the camera, slightly hot and all with these big erections. And you look at the photograph, there's a mist, little strange mist, low in levels.
Wow. Oh, wow. Whatever. He captured the perfect moment.
Well, you know, in those days, it was no photo shopping.
And I saw a note to the engraver blend in too far into a geographic.
Was that even one photograph? It's lovely, the setting sun. And it's up against, you know, a beautiful evening light. And I'm holding the walkie talkie to send a message to my mother who's done to tell her I'm staying up for the night. And I get this picture with the note to the engraver. And around each nail it's a circle and says removed from nails. Oh, you're kidding. Wow, I'm not. Oh, wow. Oh, man.
Well, let's change. Yeah. Yeah. Now, of course, because I'm male, I had a particular interest in Frodo. I mean, he almost look like a silverback. He was so. Disproportionately muscular, I was fascinated by him. Did you name him after Frodo Baggins?
He was, but that's before I realized his personality was entirely not like I was going to say he did not live up to the name Frodo Baggins.
What Frodo was, as Flint was before him in this dominant family. He was a spoiled brat. He have an older brother who supported him, older sister who supported him, a top ranking mother, and so he could get away with murder. I mean, he could attack and tease a much older individual knowing that his family would run to his support and he became a real bully.
Yeah, and he was enormous, though. He was considerably bigger than most of the other males, wasn't he? Not really.
He just got bigger because he had so often his hair bristling. OK, but he was more solid. Yes, very solid. Built.
Yeah. So knowing that you are empathetic and that you are not trying to deny whatever emotional feelings, could you come to hate any of them? Like, would you be frustrated with Frodo because he did act like such a spoiled brat so often. And of course his victims are other chimps you love. Yes, of course.
I was mad at him. Yeah. You know, I was mad when they did things which were really unpleasant and horrible. I mean, I think of them like humans. Right? And there are people who do things that irritate you or make you angry. Same with the chimps.
Yeah. Yeah. But it would be hard for me if I was in that position to try not to correct behaviour versus just observing. No, no.
If you were in that position, you wouldn't feel that's a tool. For one thing, if you tried to intervene in something like that, that would be the end of you. Oh, yeah.
Well, I might get myself. Oh, he was a monster. I mean, he was so strong and violent at times. So the very ironic part of your life has to occur to you is that you went deep into a jungle and you are entirely anonymous. And then at some point you emerge and you're a world figure.
I think that must be one of the most bizarre trajectories to being recognised the world over. Most people come to Hollywood where we're at to get that kind of recognition. But you went deep into the jungle and that transition for you. Is it confusing? Is it natural? What does that experience?
Well, when it first happened, I was, you know, basically a shy person. And first of all, all these journalists wanting to interview me and I tried to get out of it. And then I remember the first time somebody coming up to me and I was walking through Santa Fe, actually, and this woman came up and she started tears in her eyes saying, you know, she actually said, can I touch, you know, can I touch you?
And I thought, this is spooky. This is OK, I'll shake your hand. And so at the beginning, you know, people would come up in airports and they'd want selfies and could I sign something? And at first I was really I hated it. I put on dark glasses. I let my hair down, but it still went on. And then I thought, well, by this time I'm trying to raise awareness. I'm trying to raise money for the institute, trying to develop a youth program.
And so I thought, well, this is obviously something that's happened. I can't do anything about it. You don't ask for it, so I will use it. So taking brochures around, handing them out, saying, do you have children? And they must join roots and shoes, give them a brochure.
Well, yes, it sounds like you accepted the reality of what it was, which is there's no going back. So how do we make the best of this situation? Yeah, just so you know, if I met you, I would attempt to groom you, but I would have played along OK.
I would demonstrate your status. I would have groomed you back. Oh, wonderful. This would've been wonderful.
I probably have groomed your beard. Let's start there. Yeah.
Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.
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To your point, our best friends, they have a nine year old girl. I mean, we've interviewed Bill Gates and Hillary Clinton, you name it, none of this stuff has reached their radar. They could care less.
But the nine year old find out we were interviewing you and she was beside herself. You had to dress up as someone you admired. She's gone, as you say, several times. And I think what an amazing thing that you were born in. Nineteen thirty seven maybe. And here is a gal even better.
Thirty four. And here is a little girl born in 2010 mimicking you.
I just think it's so spectacular and for a wonderful reason, not because you have a humongous butt and show it on Instagram like.
Well I'm delighted that there are young women who would dress up like you and that my daughters are excited.
It's so wonderful. So with your notoriety and your deep love for the environment, for conservation, for animals, you've been a part of a couple of different really, really successful organizations, the first of which is the Jane Goodall Institute, which was established in nineteen seventy seven. And I believe now there's ten thousand groups in one hundred countries that's going on to the youth program, the Jane Goodall Institute.
We have twenty four separate institutes in twenty four different countries. Oh my goodness. And the program for Young People is a program of the Jane Goodall Institute.
Got you. So Roots and Shoots is under the umbrella of Jane Goodall. And yes, OK.
Now Roots and Shoots has forty five hundred groups in 70 countries. Do you agree to that. About seventy.
Yeah. Sixty eight. Sixty nine. Seventy, seventy two. Something like that. Those groups we don't even know about because you know, we discovered one the other day and far away in the rainforests of Guatemala or Ecuador or something. Oh my God.
Young people going from one school to another and they love this program. So they started in the new school. So it just it grassroots.
Yeah. Walk me through what Roots and Shoots does, what's the objective? And it's youth centric. So what is the goal? How does it work.
So it looks that a group get started. Let's say it's mostly in school and very often there's a teacher who tries to get it going or it may be a high school student or something like that, but it may be in the university or somebody may start it in a kindergarten. So you get the group of young people who care and you tell them, no, you know, two or three projects to make the world better. One, to help people want to help animals, one, to help the environment, because the choices they make will depend on how old they are, if they're rich or poor, if they're living in the town or the country, if they're living in China or the United States or Abu Dhabi or something like that, they should start one.
Yeah. She, by the way, should be so great large. She really was. She's a boss. OK, wonderful. Yes.
You can help, you know, so that's how groups start. And when I was traveling around America through the airports, handing out my little brochures, you could follow my progress by seeing when you group started up.
Oh, you're like just dropping seeds. Yes, that's right. So, OK, now let's go back to, I think, the general reservation in the past of acknowledging that animals have an emotional capacity or an intellectual capacity.
I think the hesitation there is, if that is recognized, then you must immediately go to what the ethical dilemma of eating them is or studying them or any of these things.
Well, studying them with interventions, studying them in research laboratories, certainly eating them much more than the eating of them and the way they're kept in the factory farms. It's horrendous. And then on top of that, there's the harm it does to the environment. You've got to feed them. You cut down habitats to grow the grain. You use fossil fuel to get the grain to the animals, to the animals, to abattoir meat to the table. They produce methane gas, which is like CO2, the greenhouse gases, I think thirty two times better at heating up the atmosphere than CO2.
I mean, it is really the the lethal methane gas up there.
Yeah. OK, so I don't want anyone to call me a hypocrite because I do eat meat. Obviously I don't feel morally great about it. And I think I've tended to focus on exactly what you just mentioned, which is the manner in which we're getting the meat. Feels like it could be vastly improved. But you know something? If you love the taste of meat, these alternatives to meat, I can't tell the difference. It's identical. You're right.
You're right. We eat these light life burgers and they're insanely. Delicious, you're right, there is no reason to not embrace those, I agree. Yeah, I guess. And tell me why I'm an idiot. I'm going to give you an opportunity to point out my flaw. So I have no problem acknowledging the value and complexity of animals. I'm not in denial of it. To me, it's quite obvious. I guess I go to a place where, well, I'm an omnivore and omnivores eat me and I'm like any other animal that's an omnivore.
I don't feel guilty about playing my role in the food chain. Now I'm obviously playing an absurd role that I wasn't really designed. So I also acknowledge that. But I think that's what I fall back on morally. Do you want to blow some holes in that? I will first of all, you are able to comprehend the exact nature of the creature that you're eating and you know that that is an animal that has emotions that can feel fear and pain, plays a role in its society, or it would do if it was allowed to.
And so that makes you separate from the other animals. There's also something else to do with health. And we have the gut of a herbivore and the herbivore has a long gut because it's got to get the goodness out of leaves and grass and things.
A carnivore has a short one because you've got to get rid of the meat before it rots in the intestines.
Well, so we're harming our health in this way.
Plus, these poor animals are given hormones to make them grow faster and antibiotics to stop them dying because of stress. So those antibiotics, the bacteria are building up resistance because they used all the time.
Is there a hierarchy in your mind or. No, like what about eating insects? Are you more in favor of that? Well, that's something I haven't really come to grips with, you know, because this even people now talking about the fact that some plants may have purpose or not, we just got to go.
So is that true?
Well, I have to say that if I was asked to choose between eating a pig and a mealworm, I would choose the mealworm, OK? And I don't think it's too terribly bad to eat insects somehow.
OK, eggs. How do we feel about eggs?
Oh, well, if eggs from hens clucking around in the farmyard, I don't mind too much, but the factory farms are horrendous.
Yeah, they're bad on the environment and the milk coming from these dairy cows and these I mean you watch some of the secretly filmed video and you feel ill. Yeah, that's what stopped me when I learned about factory farms for the first time. It was in the late sixties and next time I looked at meat on my plate, I thought, this symbolizes fear, pain, death. Yeah, not appealing and not very appetizing.
Yeah, doesn't make me very hungry when you lay it out like that.
And you know what else? When I'm talking to people, I never, I never say, oh, you're a bad person, you eat meat. You shouldn't be. Well I want to love to this to Google and check out Picasso, not Picasso, the art, the artist but big Picasso. You watch that. OK, well, here's what happened to me.
I watch forks over knives eight years ago and I went vegan for a year. I doubt forks over knives.
This is alarming is what you just told me, sir. So I'm I'm not I don't watch it.
I might as well go grocery shopping first because I'm sure I'm going to have to make a decision afterwards.
But you really I mean, I felt so much better when I stopped. I felt like that. Do you feel better when you a vegan for you? I didn't do it right.
I didn't put enough time into what I did is I ended up eating a bazillion carbohydrates and no, I didn't feel much better. I think I felt worse. I'll own a failure on my part. And the choices now are so good, aren't they?
Well, they're way different than I did it in 2012. Yes, exactly. I mean, that's come on a long way.
You know, to be honest, what got me off of it is I was going back to Detroit nonstop because my father was ill and you just couldn't eat vegetarian in twenty twelve in Detroit. Now in L.A., it's pretty darn good and easy overall.
Are you optimistic or pessimistic? Where are you at on our state. Well, I'm both OK. I know that if we all get together, we've got a window of time, we can start slowing down climate change, we can start healing some of the harm that we've done. Nature's very resilient with coming up with our intellect, with, you know, more and more ways for clean green energy, renewable energy and things like that. But the thing is, we don't have that much time.
So how do we get people involved? That's why I work so hard on roots and shoots. And I'm so thrilled because many children are changing their parents.
Oh, yeah, mine do daily. It's so annoying.
But I do get dragged along by it to a lot of the kids, a little a little girl in China who I first met when she was 10. She couldn't speak English. She came to my lecture, which of course was translated, and she said to her parents, I'm going to learn English because I want to talk to Dr. Jane. Well, she started the Roots and Shoots group and her mother helped her. And now she's fluent in English.
She's doing all kinds of amazing things. But I got a letter from her mother. She said, Dr Jane, I have to tell you, she doesn't speak English either. But her daughter translated it, that I was just a housewife and I went shopping and I never thought about it and I didn't think about anything I should know. I've become a thoughtful person and I think about what I buy and how it was made and did it hurt the environment.
And she said, this program of yours does not just change the children, it's changed all their parents, too. Yeah, that's lovely.
Of the things you've done. What is most rewarding that stuff, inspiring a little girl in China, or is it the fact that you probably played a huge role in the fact that chimps are still here?
I don't know if I'm you know, if I'm asked what's the one main thing? I think one thing that I really feel the chimps helped me to do this, but to change the scientific attitude towards animals. Mm hmm.
Yeah, that's pretty darn profound. That's a paradigm shift. Yeah, it's a paradigm shift. And the other one is starting roots and shoots because that now has its own life. If I died tomorrow, roots and shoots will carry on. But that's such a good point.
Yeah. For someone who wants to enact change, trying to figure out how to do it in your absence is, I imagine, the hardest thing to figure out which you've done. Yeah.
OK, now your podcast, I want to know, do you like interviewing people? You've been interviewed your whole life and I was in a similar situation, which I'm an actor and I've been doing interviews for 15 years and I'm like, oh, I know how to be in an interview. And guess what? I did not I knew how to get interviewed. I had to learn how to interview. Have you enjoyed hosting Jane Goodall Hope Cast?
Well, when I was told I had to host it, I was shocked to do it. How are your captors? I must intervene.
So anyway, then I found I could do it.
It's like the first time I had to give a lecture. I felt that for the first five minutes I literally couldn't breathe. I was terrified. But then suddenly I realised that I do know something from the audience that filled me with I don't know what it is, but it's a kind of magic which comes to me when I'm out there in front of a crowd. And that's why this virtual business, virtual lectures, looking at a little camera on the top of a screen that is so hard, I've had to really put every ounce of energy into trying to give a proper lecture without an audience.
You know, this is a topic I bring up all the time. There's a term for that. I can't remember it.
I am always having majored in Anthro. I'm always trying to get people to recognize how social of an animal we are. Like we have this very obvious understanding that dogs are social. So they behave this way in this predictable way and they respond to this. And we seem to underestimate that word, the like apex social animal, and that all the things chimps need, we need probably times three, this notion of us being an island that is not how we were designed to live.
And I think you look at all of our mental health issues, we underestimate just how social we are and how much we need each other.
And you standing in front of the audience makes total sense to me because you are feeling the full brunt of community like this is what you were designed to do.
That's right. I, I do feel like I have a sort of purpose in this life and I just have to try and do it. You know, when I was little, I wanted to write books because I was so shy and I started writing when I was four. My mother used to write it down for me. I found stories I wrote when I was five, got my lovely one, so I always wanted to write, I want to write poetry.
But then, you know, 10 years old, Africa, Wild Animals books, that that's what I wanted to do because women weren't that sort of scientist then.
So that was my goal.
And is it true you still have the chimpanzee stuffed animal your dad gave you as a child? Yes.
He's in lockdown in Washington, D.C., where he was part of the exhibit they put on becoming Jane or something like that, which I haven't seen yet. And then lockdown came to be still.
Oh, no, he's in quarantine by himself. I told them. I told them they couldn't have him. He was too precious. Yeah. They made him a glass bulletproof case and carried these on display like the pope.
Well, there's an ever an auction.
And then there's the only thing I think I'd ever want to own of somebody. You know, I think I'd be a good steward of that teddy bear should that ever happen.
Kathy Bates, a chimpanzee. I would be a bad steward if you can't tell my staff.
Well, they're both mammals. It's an easy mistake. My last question about your podcast, I find if I'm just being honest and candid with you, I find that the experience of having fame is underwhelming and more of an inconvenience. But I will say the thing that I most enjoy is that I get to meet someone like you. And I have to imagine that you're not impervious to that, to do you enjoy the fact that you can meet people that you are greatly interested in?
Of course, because there's people I want to meet because they could really make a difference.
There's nothing that you just that they're not even going to make a difference, but like John Travolta, you love Saturday Night Fever and by God, you could have a conversation with John Travolta now.
No, well, I hate to say, but I haven't had time to go to cinemas for so long. I don't know the film's stars.
Well, I was trying to make that one easy for you. That was 1977. Saturday Night Fever. I didn't see that film.
Do you have a favorite film, Lord of the Rings?
Oh. OK, one. Do you think about Lord of the Rings? It's exactly like what's going on now. If you think that model is greed and riches and all these despots who are out there and we need to grow the fellowship to fight that, to fight the black writers who are out there, all these big business men who couldn't care less about anything else. And even and I even thought of that recently. But if you remember, Galadriel gives Frodo a little vial of dust.
And when he sprinkles it, all the trees that are being cut down by Mordor come to life and grow up again so that the whole thing, it's like a parable of what's going on.
Right. Prophetic. Yeah, it is prophetic. Yeah. I hadn't made that connection. No, I made it.
Yes, you did.
It's proprietary to you now, Jane. You're so wonderful. I appreciate your time so much. I really want you to tell that your captors that you need a little break though, OK?
They're not my cup to burn. I'm not a weak and feeble person. You are not.
You're anything but I do have a job to do and the job requires me to do what I'm doing now. So my mother told me, if you're going to do something, do it as well as you possibly can, while your mother should be incredibly happy because you've done exactly that.
And I thank you. On behalf of my children and future generations, I'm so grateful to you for dedicating so much of your life and time and energy to trying to make this place somewhere we can live for more than another hundred years. Thank you.
And it's been absolutely lovely talking to you. I was really looking forward to it.
Well, we will meet one day and I will groom you. It'll be the best grooming of your life. I guarantee it.
I will. Through your beard.
OK, I have a wonderful rest of your day and we appreciate you so much. Thanks. OK, bye bye, Jane.
Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.
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And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soul mate, Monica Berman.
Hello, is Monica there paging Mrs. Padman. Mrs. Padman.
Wow, you're huge on my computer. Oh, too big now your life size.
We are not together.
Obviously, we are not together. We are separated by about 800 miles.
And what are you doing a hundred miles away? I just decided get out of town so I can hit the road north to Alaska or south to L.A., get out of town.
I'm shooting season two of Top Gear America in Utah.
And how is it going? Oh, man. It's so good. It's so good. Oh, sorry. Oh, what the hell happened? That was my peppermint tea. Oh, my gosh. Making a real life. Ding, ding, ding. Yeah, so, so much fun.
Jumping trucks, racing stasch, German station wagons today horsing around, cutting up with the guy.
Oh, wow. You know, that kind of stuff. You love a cut up. I do love to cut up.
And you have been very productive this weekend. Yeah.
I've had almost no fun. I've been only. Well I've. You you have fun doing that, though, right? Yeah, well, I wouldn't say fun, it's just really satisfying.
So what I did was despisers I yes, I decided to get my life together. It was time.
It was overdue.
It was it was way overdue.
I was feeling, in all honesty, a bit out of control. I needed to gain some control back. Yeah. So the best way to do that is shopping, which I did that is second best way is to clean and organized. So I cleaned and organized everything, you know, my scary closet. That's like very scary because it's a big old mess where we keep the equipment.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And every time we got to get the equipment out of there, it's like Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Like I'm waiting for darts to shoot out of the walls.
Oh, no. Well, you brought it up.
I did clean it up a year ago and it took all day. I mean, it was horrible. I had posted a picture of it in its worst state and it was really it was like Monica Geller secret closet friends.
Fans will know what that means.
OK, you're not going to know. I don't know what that means. When you said you posted a picture, I thought you were in the process of saying you had post-traumatic stress disorder from the closet.
Well, that, too. I cleaned it up a year ago. Beautiful. Then within the year, it's gotten a little out of hand again. Sure. Years. A long time. I had to completely fix that. I had to clean my refrigerator. I made an herb basket.
Well, I don't know if everyone's up to speed on the fact that you're a professional gourmet chef now and that you cook seven nights a week. I cook a lot and it's really impressive. What are you going to cook tonight?
I'm going to cook a fish. Oh, yuck. In your apartment.
Don't say yuck. Don't. Yeah, that's a that's a bad idea. No, it's not.
Cooking fish inside of an apartment is the one of the world's worst ideas.
I would open. Luisito, listen. Oh, my. Oh, my God.
Oh, my God. Listen, my chef, Guru Allison Roman wants me to cook more fish and indoors. Yeah.
And she said she said one of the main things that people fear is, is it going to make my apartment smell?
No, it's not. OK, you know what? It's the main thing people fear because one hundred times out of one hundred, your whole house stinks like a catfish. It's not catfish.
It's going to be cod. And cod is very likely. It is. OK, it's not a fishy fish.
Cod is it feels like an interesting choice because isn't that basically what you get at McDonald's and a flying fish? No. Yeah, wait, no fish sticks, no fish sticks and flying fish or cod. It's a very affordable fish.
It wasn't that affordable. Then you got ripped off because it's a real cheap fish.
Oh, I got a nice sub doing this to my fish and I'm going to make eggs and tomato poached fish and it is going to be delicious.
What does that mean? Tomato poached? You poach it in tomato.
Yeah, but I guess I don't I, I'm thinking of poaching an egg. Oh no.
Like it cooks within the tomato sausages, garlic schallert. Oh some other stuff. I haven't looked up the recipe in a bit.
Well some of that might mask the smell, but I am I'm going to tell you one of my new fears, which is, you know what? People stink. They've past their expiration date like they have B.O. and they they don't have time for a shower. So what they do is they pop some cologne all over themselves. Yeah.
And then smear their antiperspirant on over the smell. OK, go on. And now you just have a ton of smells and the B.O., it just doesn't go away. And then it's, it's like an ambrogio or a cacophony of smells or a cornucopia of smells. And I'm a little worried about that for you.
I know what you're talking about. It's like when people tried to spray over their bowel movements. That's right. Yeah, you're right. It's bad. Yeah.
Yeah, it's just leave the bra bollman. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I shouldn't have said right. Oh yeah. That was horrible.
Yeah. OK, but I agree here the pure movement smell and don't don't try to perfume that pig as they say.
I agree about the the but not about the fish.
Can we agree upon a non biased judge that will stop by tomorrow morning. We can appoint somebody. Sure. And we won't tell them anything. We're not going to say a goddamn thing. Just going to say we're asking a favor. You stop by. Monika's in the morning. Anything seems mentionable, you tell us, if not, thank you. And if they say, yeah, I went to Monika's man, it smelt like a. Not like an alley cat.
Oh, OK. Well. Well, listen, listen, listen, it's going to smell good. She promised and I trust her. I think you are extra sensitive to fish. You hated the idea of anchovies. You don't like salmon, which is crazy.
I acknowledge that.
And I cooked salmon in here a fair amount and I'm fine with it.
Do you tell me you had a problem with one of these fish fries, though, that it did reek like fish?
Now are you know, that was the chicken. I know you stink. Yeah, well, I know you stink it up with some yardbird, but I thought you also had a fish mishap mix up. I so far haven't had any fish problems. How about this?
Could we agree that if you have the option, why not cook it outside, like on the grill?
No, I can't tomato poach outside. Oh, and that's that's the prep. That's a preparation of my choosing.
OK, I have to cook it today because I. Took it out of the fridge, I mean, out of the freezer a couple of days ago, I am a little worried about that. Oh, boy. No, I think it's fine. I'll stop. You're making me. It's been on the counter for two days.
Oh, no, it's thawed. It thought a while ago. It's in the fridge. Oh, OK.
How is it? Does your fridge stink at all? No. Smells great. Well all those herbs are in there.
Yeah. My EuroBasket makes it smell so good. I have a I have a lettuce basket in another basket. OK, the lettuce basket is a box but still.
Yeah it has, it's, it's impressive. It looks like a professional chef's fridge.
When you saw a picture of it, you said I had too many vegetables. No one says that. Well, my concern was no one person could eat that many vegetables in the time horizon that vegetables stay good.
Yeah, I tend to try to get three or four extra days out of fish, a couple of weeks out of the veggies.
I do overestimate how old's this tomato you're going to be poaching the old fish with, I don't know, the old day old fish.
Well, Dale, is it bad all these prices on like day old donuts day old bread day all day old is usually signalling that you're going to get a deal?
As I said, it wasn't cheap.
Oh, well, again, I think he got ripped off because it's a very inexpensive fish. That's why it's in fish sticks.
And ah, let me look up right now.
Actually, this is a good fat OK, real time fact. Yeah. What kind of fish is in a flying fish fillet fish. McDonald's. You're not going to like this answer.
Oh not cod Alaskan Pollock. I bet that's a card. Let's see what what is asking 4:00. Yeah, Alaska Pollock. Oh, fuck.
It's a species of cod.
Yep, yep, yep. That was a long walk back to COD.
And that even sounds fancier, but you just got cod. Oh, it's not cod.
I got it on deposit. How dare you. Cash on delivery. Cod. Cod. But you could do the same for fishsticks and you're going to find its card across the board any soon. Yeah, absolutely. They're what make America run, but it's it's just not. You're so gourmet right now, and it's it's tuna fish. Well, I love tuna fish.
Also, the reason she picked cod as this recipe is because it's not very fishy, which is why it's in fish sticks and why it's in fillet fish.
Yeah, well. And how cheap it is. No. I'm going to find out. Hold on, top five, most inexpensive. OK, if this makes the list, you're in trouble.
Why not? It's supposed to be on the cheaper end. Well, now you're changing your story. You said you paid really good money for this. Oh, no, but like, yeah, compared to halibut, but it wasn't cheap. It wasn't like five bucks. It was like twenty five.
Oh, it's it didn't do inexpensive. It said expensive. Inexpensive, I should just add, cheap fish, budget friendly fish. Oskay apparently is cheap catfish. We knew that. Which type of fish is the cheapest? This is a bad category to be looking at white flesh. This is usually inexpensive, has a mild flavor, cooks quickly. That's going to oh, the most popular kinds of white fish include cod, tilapia, haddock, catfish, grouper, bass and snapper.
OK, all right. OK, this is like the third time in three weeks you've worked my. Well, no, hold on, hold on. You weren't eating it and I wasn't going, oh, I hate fish. I'm telling you that it's an inexpensive fish, which is great.
You said you said yuck.
When I said what I was making, you literally said, yeah, but you had you had and said, yum.
So I said, I'm excited. I'm making a fish tonight and I'm still excited. I'm not going to let you yuck it.
I know I'm not trying to. I just was worried about the smell in there. But now I'm over it.
It's going to be great. Speaking of animals, yeah. This is Jane Goodall episode. Oh, my God.
I'm glad we weren't talking about steak. That would have been really counter or bushmeat.
What's that that's eating of primates?
Oh, no, people do. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, we're we're meat is really scarce. They will be primates and primates are supposed to taste terrible.
Yeah. Isn't isn't the like because so muscly. It's that we're so tendency. I guess we taste really rubber rubberband.
Oh gross. OK is what my anthro teacher Joan Barker told me. This is what I, I don't know if she had tried but I hope she hadn't tried any primate and I started to make a joke but then I stopped.
What did you to say? Is that what Armie Hammer told you? Oh, that's a topical joke.
It's a topical joke.
But I have very mixed feelings on that whole thing.
Oh, mine aren't mixed. Mine are very, very clear. Yeah, I know. I can assume that yours are mine are pretty much what yours are. I think I like well I don't know all the details so I don't want to like. Yeah, let's just take the thing we're talking about, which is the part we understand, is that he had written sexual text messages expressing a desire to eat somebody.
And it was we were told it was consensual, right? So that's our understanding. Yeah. And I have no problem with anybody's weird sexual fantasy. I have a big problem with someone eating somebody. But, you know, yeah, you can have as kinky thoughts as you want. If your partner wants to pretend that you're going to eat each other, what the fuck does that have to do with any of us?
I, I agree. I thought it was extreme what was happening, if it was consensual, if it was it. And he was like harassing people and trying to tell them that he wanted to eat them like, mate, that's a different story. But that doesn't seem like that was the case.
But I don't know where we can get into a much like that's an easy position for us to take. I think the harder one is, I do believe part of the issue is that it was consensual. And that some of these gals now regret it and say there was a power imbalance and now they don't they're not happy that they participated in that. And that's that's a really tricky subject that I have probably a bad opinion on. I don't think we can function as a society if you can retract consent.
I just I actually don't think it can function if. You can tell someone to their face, yes, I can. And then later say, no, I don't consent. That's no, but it's if you feel like you have to say yes, it's way more complicated. But in this case, I don't think he had. Power.
It wasn't like he was employing these people or he was no, but I think people will argue that because someone is famous that they and apparently have a power imbalance over anyone else. And that's I don't think that I don't think that would hold up if that person literally had power, like could control their job or their well-being in some ways.
I don't know if but if just saying that that person's famous gives them power doesn't I don't think that really holds any water. They don't actually have power over you, whereas bosses and stuff like that do.
Yeah, I guess I'm just saying, if we live in a society where consent can be retracted, then if someone gives you consent real time and very genuinely and honestly and earnestly, you then have to say. No, you don't like how do you proceed in life in a paradigm where if someone tells you they want to do something and you do it with them, you're supposed to. What? Assume their consent isn't real. That also feels weird and controlling and dismissive and, well, no, I think you just have to be cognizant of the relationships you pursue.
If you're pursuing one with your employee, maybe double because you never know what is happening there. Oh, yeah, employer employee, of course.
But I'm talking just two people, two people meet. They have a relationship and the guy says, I want to be kinky and do S.A.M.. Yeah. And the person says, I do too. I'd like to try that. Yeah. And then they didn't enjoy it. Yeah. And then later they say, I retract consent. I was forced, you know. Yeah.
I think these cases are a little more nuanced than that, but I don't know enough about the Armie Hammer one to like really say I don't think him being famous is. Gives him power. Personally, I write, unless he unless they were like actresses and he was calling them in for meetings and stuff like that, well, that would be grody.
Yeah, but I don't people have kinky thoughts, but I don't want to really eat anyone.
No, nobody should eat anyone like women have rape fantasies and they work out rape fantasies with their partners.
They don't want to be raped. Yeah, that's fine if they want to express that fear in that way. Yeah, but they don't want to be raped. Yeah. And so you could be working out this thing that. Yeah. You want to be consumed. What's deeper than it. I think if you want to get emotional about it is like I think the statement is I'm so into you that I would consume you and I would never want to consume a person.
But I'm so into you.
I want to get you. That's the benign version of it. Right, because these texts were explicit like they were they're dark. They were dark. But did it make you horny for them? No.
Oh, so it did make me like, whoa, this. That's a lot, yeah, yeah, I guess the only thing I can see with what I could see happening that's uncomfortable is if I was flirting, texting with someone and it was like really fun and playful and we were like days in and we were really into it. And then it took a quick turn into something very dark.
Yeah. That would be uncomfortable. Like it would really it would be hard, although of course I'd have to say like oh I'm not into that.
Yeah but it but if you wrote back. Yeah.
I want to eat your spleen, you know, what on earth is the other person supposed to assume other than if that happened to you, that exact same thing, you would just not respond probably when it got weird or you might even say, oh, I don't want to eat anyone and I don't want to be eaten whatever. You wouldn't then think I should embarrass this person. Like, I should tell people that I would not.
I would not unless I was really feeling threatened in some way or like, you know, if something was getting out of control there. Is it not? I wouldn't want to embarrass someone, but I would potentially need to say something to other people if it was getting out of hand, if I felt in danger or threatened or harassed and can we role play and I'm going to do this.
I'm going to say I'm going to go somewhere where I would have to put up a red flag.
OK, ok, ok. Hey, what are you doing?
I'm organizing. Oh, you're in your house. You're in your house. What are you wearing? What do you base? A smiley face? I'm wearing a sweatshirt and thick socks and no pants.
All right. This is what I got, right? That's so kinky to wear big thick socks and no pants.
I'd love to bring over 15 pounds of cod with stink up your kitchen and take them socks off once it's nice and stinking in there. And then I would go.
I do not consent to this way. You said it, I was doing I was painting one where I would have to. Oh, that was if I were you.
So I was you and I was wearing the sweatshirt and I was organizing. Yeah.
Which I didn't. Yeah.
I didn't know that I wouldn't have been organizing or wearing a sweatshirt with no pants on.
Well I'm just I was getting I wanted to send the text that I would have to send up a flare and you wouldn't like it if someone said they were going to bring a lot of court over like 13, 14 pounds a card and really stink up the place and then work those socks off and then tie the socks around.
What really what would you say? You wouldn't just say, oh, it would be really nice. Yeah. You'd you would be cognizant of the person's feelings.
I'm also I'm also radical. I would probably go along with anything, just see what this whole thing's about.
But see, I guess that's where things get a little tricky because what if like what if I was texting with someone and then they took it to a really dark place and it was really playful.
And I guess you could think for a bit that it was still like you could think for a while it was still playful until you were like, oh, shit, no, it's not. But I've already been sort of playing along because I thought it was that. Now it's not. Now I have to say, no, I don't like it, but I did play along for a bit. Yeah, but like, so what? So all that is, is like it's flirting that didn't pan out.
Like it's like when someone goes up and says, what's your name at the bar? And then they say something corny and you don't like it and ends like. So it's just like this escalation and then it, it just it, it doesn't click for you. And that's that, that's. Yeah that's true. It's not like a moral issue. It's just like, oh we're not compatible in the fantasy thing. You've got all this fish you're trying to unload and you want to cook it at my house.
And I'm not going to be able to truthfully say I want to live out this fantasy with you, Jane Goodall forging this connection.
She deserves so much more than that. It was a natural flow is a ding, ding, ding.
OK, what we both really loved about Jane Goodall is she's kind of taken this not by her choice. She has the role of like Queen of the planet. Yeah. And and yet she's so spunky.
Yeah, that was my favorite.
I know. I loved when she told you you you were capable of taking care of her stuffed animal chimp because you called it a teddy bear.
Like, you can't take care of it if you don't even know the difference between a chimp and a bear.
Yeah, you can't have it. That's why that's why she'd be fine with us talking about the texting.
Yeah, she she probably like it. Maybe she'll even maybe she'll even get a hold of us so she can voice her opinion on it.
I think I know her opinion well. No, I definitely don't know her opinion on the sex part, but she's definitely not into eating humans or primates or animals at all.
Well, we also know her opinion on the sex that was involved in bringing fish over because she's a vegetarian. She would not want you to bring fish over and cook it.
I wonder if she cares as much about fish.
Well, she said the only thing she could possibly eat would maybe be in sex. Yeah. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. I don't know.
I just want to say. Because in sex. Oh, in sex. Oh, my God. Ding, ding, ding. Oh, my gosh.
OK, so how many times more harmful is methane gas than CO2 we're looking at now?
Because of Bill's book, yes. How to Avoid Climate Disaster.
OK, I'll read this. This is from UNICEF. You tell me if your number in your head is different from Bill's book.
There's like Mathie that go around. But go ahead. OK, methane is a powerful greenhouse gas with one hundred year old global warming potential. Twenty five times that of CO2 measured over a 20 year period. Methane is eighty four times more potent as a greenhouse gas than CO2. About 60 percent of global methane emissions are due to human activities. What does Bill say? I think he says twenty eight and I had heard 30 to that was another number that everyone agreed upon.
But I think where it gets tricky is the only upside of methane, is that it doesn't stay in the atmosphere nearly as long as carbon. So carbon dioxide has a really long Half-Life, whereas methane doesn't. So even though it's heating it more, it'll go away quicker.
Yeah, but the thing that was really that we read in the book, Nitrous Oxide, which is also a byproduct that is like two or three hundred times, is warming than CO2.
Yeah, we're going to talk to him. Can't wait this week, right? Yeah. Oh my God. I'm so scared.
I'm so scared. Ding, ding, ding. There's a really funny friends moment where Ross can't flirt and he's trying to flirt with a girl who's delivering his pizza and he. Huh. Actually, I wonder if this doesn't hold up in twenty twenty one.
Oh, nothing does. But he keeps calling. Sure. He keeps having her come back so he can keep practice flirting, he can try to get better each time and he starts talking about gas and how different gases smell, how they smell.
It's a really funny oh I love that show. I'm going to start.
Yeah. Oh wow. Yeah. How many episodes are there. Two hundred at least. I don't I know that well. Well how many seasons was it on.
It was ten, but in season five they hit one hundred. But then there's fewer episodes in the later season so I bet it's not quite one hundred.
Well, it's well, there's 10 seasons and they average 20, 20 episodes of season, which they had to have two hundred. Two hundred thirty six.
Yeah, I was going to say they probably have like the normal order was probably twenty four and they might have cut it to twenty or twenty two in the latter seasons. Then there's no way they ever went under.
Twenty eighteen. It's the shortest 18, season 10. OK, I bet season nine is 18.
I wonder if that was like because people are doing movies, why on earth would that be? It was a cash cow.
Oh, nine is twenty four. So ten was the shortest and that was eighteen. I think they were ready to be done and they just the network wanted it so bad that they were and they were getting paid a million dollars an episode. Yeah.
That's pretty good money. Yeah it's, it's pretty good. It's OK.
That's really all I had for Jane. No kidding. Methane. Yeah.
Because she, she knows her stuff, you know. She knows her shit.
I mean there was a question of how many roots and shoots but she, she explained why we don't know that because they're just kind of sprouting up all over the place. So I couldn't really check.
Scary, scary wampus. Yeah. Very wampus.
Very scary and very wampus. Extra wampus and pretty darn scant scatty. All right, well, this was fun, and then I'll be home in two clicks, two clicks away.
Yeah, put the pedal down and get right home. I'm driving a Hellcat Durango. Oh.
So I'm sitting on about seven hundred and ten horsepower so you can really get up those mountain roads. But it's snowy.
It sure is. So you can't go that fast, right, pretty fast. Yeah, it's got all wheel drive. Very stable, really good car. OK, yeah, I got here in the weather was worse than it will be when I go home.
OK, and what are Rob and Jethro driving.
Rob's driving his huge sprinter van that's all decked out, hysterical. It's very cool. And and Jethro is driving a Subaru outback, which I know he's not thrilled about.
Oh, it's not his pick. No.
He too likes horsepower. He's a horsepower ADIC.
He's a cowboy. Yes. Yeah, on the steel horsy ride. Remember, we interviewed Djangirov? Yes, I'll never forget Jayjay baby.
All right. I love you. Love you. Have fun cooking your fish.