Welcome. Welcome to armchair expert. I'm Dak Shepard. I'm joined by Monica. Lily Padman.

Hi.

Hello. Hello. We have a very fun and youthful guest on today.

Yes, we.

Maisie Williams. Oh, my God. I fell in love with her as Arya Stark, maybe, I don't know. Tied for me with the hound.

Ooh, Arya. No, she's the best.

She's the best.

Yeah.

Okay. I like them both so much.

Sure.

I mean, there's so many good characters.

The Helen's great because he's a bad guy, and he's good at times. That's a very infectious archetype for me.

Well, Ari's the opposite. She's a good girl, but she can be bad.

Well, Maisie's been in a bunch of stuff other than Game of Thrones, the new mutants, pistol doctor who. Then came you. And she has a new series out now on Apple TV plus called the New look, which tells the story of Christian Dior, Coco Chanel, and their contemporaries. This show was made for Monica. Let's just call it what it is. This is Monica's show. It should have been called Monica's show.

And it's timely because it was just Paris fashion week.

Oh, perfect.

And do you want to hear? I wonder if they timed that, if they were smart. They did.

Yeah, they're pretty smart at Apple.

Well, listen, the row had a show.

Okay, a row show.

But they sent an email or in the invite or whatever. They told people no social media.

So what does that mean?

So no one took pictures and posted, which, like most of these shows, people have video and pictures, and it's a whole.

Do you think they took people's phone when they came in? They must have, because how would you control that?

Well, I think they just.

It was like you're entering into agreement by coming.

What's it called? Like, faith's honor system.

Honor system. The faith friendship.

And they provided everyone with a very fancy pencil. Black wing pencil. I did end up buying some after I heard about this, because I need.

You write with pencils?

I do now. And, like, a cool notebook for people to write notes and draw pictures.

Oh, so they were free to draw sketches of what they.

Exactly.

Well, Maisie's a veritable historian on fashion as well.

She was probably invited.

She knows her shit.

Yeah.

Please enjoy. Maisie Williams. Were you offered all the beverages?

Yeah, I just was kind of freaking out over this. That looks like a beer, but it's.

Water and there's n a beer. There'll be wardrobe change for the big picture.

Oh, you have a t shirt. Are you a fan? Okay, well, come on.

Have you ever met anyone who wasn't a fan?

Yeah.

Really?

No.

Not a fan. Just not seen it.

But that's like two people in the world.

Well, I don't know.

There are a couple, but also what.

A good litmus test. If they go like, oh, right. I never saw it. I would go, wonderful. Have a good life. And then I would just turn around and walk and you'd never see me.

Or maybe you might like it. Do you like it when people don't know you?

It is sometimes quite nice. I feel like a lot of my friends are people who have no idea. Yeah.

And that's kind of nice. Some non fan friends.

Yeah. Monica's making this weird decision to not watch a certain boy's show because she might date him. And I think that's crazy.

Do you get it?

I get it, yeah.

Tell me how you get it.

Well, I don't know. Everyone I've ever dated don't have a clue. They don't care. I get to introduce myself.

Yes. You get to win them over organically. You get to earn it. But I'm talking about the reverse. Would you protect yourself from seeing, let's say I met you? You're going to have to play along. I'm 62 years older than you, but somehow I charmed you at a place, and then we exchanged numbers and then we were going to hang out. Then one of your friends was like, I know that dude. He was on parenthood. Do you think you would not be able to watch that show without it somehow poisoning the well?

Yeah, I feel like then I would be like a little starstruck around. Exactly.

And that is not wrong. Dating.

No.

Wrong.

I'm wrong. I'm on a roll of being wrong yesterday.

So do you think that if you charmed someone, can you imagine? And then would you like it if you were kind of charmer girl, you know, that they hadn't seen something? Would you find it kind of flattering that they went away and watched the whole thing?

Here's what I think. And a lot of people wrestle with this. This is a debate that comes up in here all the time. And I think I can sum it up, although you're going to be an anomaly for this because you didn't have the full experience. But I think if you're someone who did just fine in high school, dating, that kind of thing's not an issue for you. If you didn't attract the attention of any boys or girls, then this thing becomes a lot more complicated. So I'm not going to assume that some gale watched Parenthood and now is in love with Crosby, the character I played. And from where I sit, if I've expressed interest in you, then one of the first things I'd want to do as my homework is like, oh, what's the thing that was really important to you? What was a big chunk of your life? I'd like to make sure I know about that. That's you.

Once you're dating, you can post coital. Yeah. Four or five dates in, you can start the show, but not at the beginning. You don't understand about playing it cool.

I know, but I also do because I did okay in high school, ever.

That was so long ago.

How about this, though? You meet a boy, you like each other.

If you're interested in boys, both.

You meet a boy or a gal, it doesn't matter. You meet a human being and there's sparky sparks flying in learning about one another. At dinner, you go like, well, yeah. For twelve years of my life, I was very busy doing this thing. That's why I didn't go to school, or whatever you say. And then the boy or girl runs off, and then they go and watch.

It and they're like, we can't hang out. I have a lot of seasons of this show to get through.

Yeah, I'll see you.

I'm busy.

But what do you think about that? Does that not feel flattering?

I could imagine me being a little flattered, but only if they didn't then pedestal the whole thing. You know what I mean?

Yes. If there's a huge power imbalance in any relationship and one person's a fan and in awe of you, well, that's a deal breaker. But I think that person would be that way with or without watching the show. Yeah, I think they're either prone to that or not. I'll do interviews in the very well intentioned good morning America. Whatever. Don't you just worship your wife? And I'm like, puke. No, that would be really gross. It was like otherworldly or something.

But you weren't a fan of hers before. You were exactly the opposite. You didn't know her.

I wasn't not a fan. I hadn't seen Veronica Mars.

Maybe that's why it worked.

Exactly. You didn't go in with any expectation. Once you were together, then you saw the show, and then you're like, oh, this is a good show.

True, but I think it would have worked both ways. I wouldn't have been peeing my pants because she was Ron Mars.

You sometimes pee your pants.

Name a time I peed my pants. There's, like, three.

Yeah, there are people sometimes. They've come in here.

Well, like Lisa Bonet, do you know? Oh, you must know Lisa Bonet. I'm going to ask you some questions in a minute, and thank you for your patience.

No, that's great. I love this.

I think I'm in the phase of trying to win you over because you're young and I'm old and I'm insecure.

Don't be insecure.

Have you ever tended to elevate someone up to a level that wasn't tenable?

I don't know. There's, like, fiance.

Sure.

I think that I definitely get starstruck more than most famous people do.

Right.

But I do understand that everyone is just a person. But I think that I'm kind of just awkward like that sometimes.

But don't you think after, like, two months of dating and they pooped with the door open and they brushed their teeth, don't you think it would wear off?

Definitely. It would wear off on anyone, but it's just that immediate thing, and maybe it's more that whole thing of how I should be acting or should be feeling and you're not in your body, actually, really at that moment, which is why you're getting so, like, I can't believe this person is in front of me. But actually, I think if I were to just decompress. Yeah, obviously they're just a normal person now.

That's a great point. So if the person's celebrity or their talent has the outcome of you feeling self conscious, then, yeah, you shouldn't do it. Is that what you think might happen is, like, if you love this show, then you might find yourself being self conscious. Like, I hope this goes well.

It makes me thrown a little bit in my. Myself, and then I'm like, oh, I feel like I'm getting further away from my own destiny here.

It shakes your confidence, and then you.

Can'T really be you.

Exactly. Like, I wouldn't want to watch things. I wouldn't want to do things, because it would just put me in a place that was not as authentic as it was before.

It would amplify.

Do you think that's what it is? Yeah, I think that eventually it would be so funny.

Exactly. But that's why you just have to get through that first hump.

Oh, figuratively. Literally. I have an armchair theory on why you're starstruck.

Okay. Go for it, please.

There's the obvious thing, that you were really young when you started going to these things, but I think beyond that, if ever there was a show that was so physically removed from Hollywood, did you shoot that ten months, a year, or something?

Depended on the season. But, yeah, a lot of the year.

And you're out in the fucking forest, right? You don't even know if people watch the show.

It is not glamorous at all.

So then you take an airplane ride. I'm guessing you're nailing from a forest in Ireland or wherever the fuck you all are, and then you land in Hollywood, and then you go to the Emmys, and it occurs to you everyone in this town is obsessed with this thing, and I wasn't sure it's on.

That's exactly it. I was so far removed from the glamor of this industry and the celebrity, and then that part of my life was so tiny, and compared to how long we would spend making the show and doing school and everything else, it felt like that was the reality and not the excitement side of it.

Did you feel like when you were at the Emmys that you were like, somehow I've teleported to this thing that cannot be real?

Definitely. I feel like I would just float through and just not really have any idea what was going on. I actually think back to those nights, and I'm like, I just don't know really where I was.

You weren't associated, really.

And I remember even after we won best show on the final season, we were all backstage doing all the interviews, and I just literally remember being the whole time just, like, a dough eye. Yeah, fully. And then it's like, we're all going to go out, and I was like, I think I just need to go home. This is really overwhelming.

Also, here's another guess I have about how abstract the experience was. Is acting. Is acting. Whatever lines you're given in whatever show you're giving, you're trying your hardest to do the best, and then you either feel connected to your scene partner or not. Now, then the show can have this otherworldly magic, and it can be so big and impressive that I might feel a little disjunction between what I do in the woods, which is pretty simple. I, like, talk to people. I cry sometimes. And I'm asking, what famous person's coming up to you at the Emmys? Just going like, oh, my God. Ario, you're the recipient of this global phenomena that's so expansive, yet the reactions directed at you in the work itself is not terribly unlike any other work you would do.

Yeah. The preparation, the time and the dedication and when something's got. The distribution went to the Screen Actors Guild awards, and it was crazy because it was the year of Jennifer Lawrence, and she shot past all of us and was like, I love your show so much. She's like the biggest star in the world. I mean, still is, but that was unbelievable. Myself and Sophie were just like, oh, my God. It's like the one person that we're all dying to see. And then she's like, I love your show. Stands on the red carpet, does her foes, and runs into the award ceremony. We were like, it was actually quite funny because I went on the red carpet right after her, and obviously all the cameras were just taking pictures of general. And it was my first moment where I was like, you're not as cool as people are saying.

You are insane.

Just bizarre. Now I think that they're so fun. I don't know. My brain is closed over.

Well, you've practiced.

Yes, exactly. And now I think that I can just laugh at the absurdity of everyone standing in these insane dresses with fans sweating like the behind the scenes of it. I'm just like, this is brilliant. This is a movie in itself. But before, I think I used to just really be very earnest with it and think this is the most prestigious thing and the best night of my life, and I should be so lucky. And now I just think it's silly.

There is a version that's highly enjoyable, but it's actually not the one you go in with thinking what you just said, which, again, is more disjunction. This is supposed to feel like the most incredible thing in the world, and yet I kind of have to poop, and I'm a little hungry. Why haven't I transcended the human plane? Until you get to what you're at, which is, oh, my God, this is so comical. And then you have friends and you.

Know people, and then it can be enjoyable again. But it's true. You're like, when am I going to feel like this is the best night of my life?

Yes, we interviewed Jenna Ortega last year. Do you know her? I mean, you know of her.

Yeah, exactly. I heard that episode.

Oh, you did? Oh, you've heard the. Oh, wonderful. So the thing I really, really sympathized with her because I had it on a much, much smaller level, but I had it, which is everyone around you has this expectation that you should be feeling because we've all succumbed to the fantasy. So you're having it and you almost feel like you're letting everyone down around you, that you're not elated. Do you have any of that?

It's funny, I was speaking to my mom about coming on this press torch. She used to come on my press torch with me all the time. Time. And I always used to talk about how they were the worst part of it for me. And I really didn't like it because. Exactly that. I just feel like this is supposed to be a lot of fun and anyone would kill to do this. And I can't help but just feel, like, really, really tired, really overwhelmed. I don't have any more answers to these questions. Like, I'm not being funny. I feel so false. And then I'm like, but in a week, you're going to be back in your life and you're going to miss this. So you should really be lucky.

Mad at yourself fully.

And then I was saying to her, I'm so excited for this presser. I can't wait to see everyone. She's like, that's really funny to me. Because you used to hate that part. I was also a kid, but now I just feel like you can just ease into that a lot more. And it was really interesting listening to Gemma talking about it because I really could connect with those things. But I do feel like it's getting way easier now.

Yeah. Once you accept it all, everything gets way more fun and manageable the quicker you can get to that. Or. I used to be so obsessed with my privacy. When paparazzi got Kristen and I out, I was furious. I'm like, what is this? And drove me nuts. Now I just don't give a fuck.

Yeah, now you call them.

I call them every time we leave the house, and I just pray they'll put us in.

I have the nicest outfit on today. Come on. Yes.

I just worked out. Please photograph me.

But you're in such a weird position because you're so young and yet you are more experienced than most of the older actors working. Kind of like the Mayweather thing where people think of you as a kid, but you're like, I've been working for longer than you.

It's such a strange part of it. I still feel like there's so much that I don't know and I still feel very green. And especially because of COVID and strike, I feel like starting all over again. In a sense.

You're very grounded. I'm impressed.

Verdict's not on.

Oh, we don't know yet.

Definitely do. Twelve impressive minutes, then she can start asking. Rob, I had asked for a six bean salad. Is that around somewhere?

But just in the sense being on set, hitting your mark and all of those little technical things, I feel like a pro. This feels kind of good knowing what I'm doing.

Good job. You're good at your job.

Totally. And, like, being in my light.

Yeah. Justin, if you notice the camera, you're blocked a little bit. And the camera guy's so happy and grateful for you.

Yeah. He, like, wipes the bead of sweat. And I'm like, you know, I've got you. Don't worry about it. So that sort of thing is great. Otherwise, I just feel like I'm always learning from other actors and I feel like I've done so much. But then I've been working with Ben Mendelsohn on this show, and he has been acting since he was eight years old. So I'm like, okay, I know nothing, actually.

Right, well, how old is he? He's only got you by four years on the start.

Yeah, true.

You started at twelve. He started eight.

He's like 79 in his 50s.

Is everyone. You're 27, about to turn. So you're 26.

Yeah.

I have to imagine the number before. So let me get this straight. You're going to turn 27. You must be. Yeah. You're still at an age where I have to believe everyone over 38 is just vaguely 50. Right? Isn't that got to be the case?

No.

Do you remember your teachers when we were kids?

Yes.

And how old are they in your mind? I know, 35, 40.

Yeah, but they weren't.

They were 24. So sad.

Yeah. Kind of crazy. I feel like I'm getting way better at that, actually. I have a brother who is in his mid forty s, and then my mom is in her 60s, so I feel like I have a good barometer now where I'm like, where do they fit? Are they older or younger than my brother?

You can speak my language. You have some of my references, hopefully.

It's quite crazy that you said at the beginning of this interview, you're like, I'm old. You are not old. I want to go back.

Okay, let's go back.

Yeah, you're not old. There is something insane about this town that's making you say these things and making you feel really insecure. It is insane. You wish that you were old and wise.

Well, listen to me. Wow. I love this.

There is still so much left for you to learn.

This is a great tongue lashing. And I've earned just. I accept it. But it also makes me think of my new favorite quote I just heard. I know this is probably the second time I've said it on here, but my therapist just told me this quote he saw hanging in someone's office, and it was from a female prime minister of Israel. I can't remember which one. And it said, don't be humble. You're not that. And I feel like what you just said is a little bit in the world. Like, you're not that fucking wise, so don't feel so.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a nice saying. I like that. Don't be so humble.

You're not that great, if I'm being fully honest. There's a weird evolution. You move through phases and you go like, all right, I couldn't date a 27 year old. That time has passed. And it's interesting to be incompatible in that way. And I don't even know why that crosses my mind, but it does. Like, all growing up was either meeting women my age or they were older, and I could date someone older. And now I've reached an age where, well, it'd be insane if you were dating this person. I just notice it the way I notice I'm older than all the coaches in the NFL now. It's like, oh, yeah, here's another passage of time. I think that's more what I was.

Yeah, right.

It changes who your options are. I mean, you have zero options. Just reminding you. But, yeah, the older you get, it's like, oh, that person's really cute.

Oh, that ship sailed.

They're 24.

Get used to being, like, the youngest. And you get used to, I'm so naive. I don't know anything. And then you're all of a sudden like, well, I better grow up now.

Because everyone else is around me. Do you happen to. I feel like you would for some reason. Have you seen the show Colin from accounting?

No. Damn.

It's a great Aussie show.

Okay.

And it's about a couple. There's a big old age gap.

Is this new?

Yes. Oh, I don't know it well. I think they're doing season two right now. Oh, my God. It was just recommended to us, and we're, like, blowing through it. It's unbelievably charming and cute, but they talk nonstop about how disgusting it is they're together. That's what you got to do.

I feel like I've been recommended this before.

How small are. I mean, how old are they?

She's two foot three on the show. I think she's playing 29. They haven't said his age, but he seems to be my age.

Okay, 49.

But they're a real life couple.

Oh, they're real life, yes.

I started following them on Instagram. I love them so much.

That sounds brilliant. They're working through something on that.

Yes. Well, they need to be together. Their chemistry and their snap snap snap is so intoxicating. Okay, let's go back to England. 1997. This is when little Maisie arrives.

Yes. Hello.

Hi.

And mom and dad are divorced at four months old.

Yeah.

So you're in my boat. You don't have any memories of your parents?

No, I didn't know they even met.

Okay. Right.

And you're not in my mind pining.

For them to get reunited or anything?

Oh, no.

Did you have a relationship with your dad?

Yes, until the age of eight.

Okay, we'll end that there.

Yeah.

The face said everything. The stepdad. A nice stepdad.

Yeah. Really lovely.

He hit the jackpot.

Yeah. And you? No.

Well, the last one was really nice.

Okay.

There are a couple of doozies in between, though.

Yeah. My mom had, like, a couple of boyfriends who were always great fun, and I really love them. And then she met my stepdad. He was really lovely.

This shouldn't be a compliment for a man, but it is. Any dude who walks in, there's four kids on the scene already, and he embraces that. I just like that person.

Yeah, that's true. It's a lot. We were what we were.

Yeah.

He also had two kids of his own, and so we, like, blended our families.

There were six of you?

There were six of us. Wow.

Oh, my lord.

In a three bedroom house.

Oh, my lord.

Yeah. It was kind of crazy.

You're the youngest of the four that you're biologically related to. Where were you with the other two?

They were younger than me. My sister Amy, she was like, she still is eight months younger than me. And then my brother James was two, three years younger than me.

And what age were you when the family blended?

Eight or nine.

So the little girl who's eight months younger than you, did you know her at school already?

No. So they went to school with their mom. They would come at the weekends and stuff. They wouldn't fully, fully blend.

Are they still together?

No. I know it's a bummer. It is, yeah. My mom. This is what I mean about age, in her 60s has started again. Again?

Is she on apps? Because my mom is. She's not apps.

But her sister met her now partner on plenty more fish or something.

Wow.

And they are perfect for each other. I feel like it's coming at some point.

Yes. Have you talked to her about apps?

Yeah, a little bit. She's like, no, not doing it. She's got her dog. She also looks after my dog and she goes cold water swimming. And she's like, that's it. That's what I do.

Hey, I love cold water swimming.

Yeah.

So my mom was on the apps at 72. She was fucking busy.

That's fun.

Yeah.

And she has a boyfriend now. Like a new boyfriend.

They've been on a vacation together. They've been together a year now.

That's nice.

It is. Okay. But back to England. How far out of London were you? You're in a town of 1500 people, like tiny.

Yeah, yeah. So the closest major city was a city called Bristol. Do you ever watch skins?

I never watched.

You ever listen to Porter's head?

Oh, yeah, sure.

Massive attack, sort of, yeah. There where the railways were founded.

Oh, really?

Ismbard Kingdom, Brunel. Icon, legend. We love him.

Bucolic. Is it like pastoral or is it seaside?

Seaside, import export type.

Interesting.

I lived 20 minutes outside of there. My dad lived in the city, my mom lived outside the city, and I do every other weekend with my dad up until the age of eight. But I wasn't conscious even at that point.

Right, you weren't even alive.

Mom was an administrator at a college in Bristol, I'd presume.

Yeah, I mean, my mom's done all kinds of jobs, but that was the most prominent job that she had while I was growing up.

Okay, so you originally wanted to be a dancer?

Yes.

Based on who? Was there someone you were looking up to or anything?

No, I never really had any idols. I think people would talk about idols and then I would manufacture them into my life, but I hadn't been shown a lot of things that I was like, that's what it is. It really came from within. I loved to dance and that was just what I always wanted. Since I can remember, I've never wanted to do anything else.

Really quick. Did you not idolize your older sister and I put you in a bad position? Absolutely, because I wanted to do anything my brother did.

That's true. My sister had all the coolest clothes, had all the coolest friends, would show me all the coolest films as well. Played me Titanic. She's like, this came out the year you born and just the greatest love story ever told. Exactly. Get ready for this.

Leonardo DiCaprio, he's the hottest guy ever.

Yeah. And I was like, oh, you're right.

But she didn't dance.

No, she didn't dance. She sang. We were all kind of artsy. Yeah.

Okay, so you're dancing, and then maybe this is apocryphal, but Game of Thrones is your second audition of your life.

Yes.

Okay, that's absurd, but tell me about the first. And how did we even get to where we're going to audition?

I went to this local dance school, which was spoken about in the area as a really good one, and it was because the teachers were so amazing. It's called Susan Hill School of dancing. Shout out. And her son George had been a professional dancer for years, and so they really understood what it took to go to the next.

All the way.

Yes. And they were really, really supportive of me. And they said, you should go to stage school and do this. But my mom had no idea how. And so they helped us with everything. Gave me the audition piece, helped me burn music onto a CD.

Worked with you on the sides.

Exactly. Did the whole thing.

Have you bought them a nice Christmas present as a thank you?

At this point, I actually have never got them a nice Christmas present as a thank you.

Let's work on that.

The worst person ever.

You might need to get them a hot tub. Yeah.

We're still actually really in touch. George has helped me with audition pieces in the past for things that I've done in movies and stuff. I'm still close with them.

Oh, that's nice.

Which is nice.

What was the first audition for? Oh, no, back up. If you could objectively say what your skill level as a dancer was out of ten.

Listen, passion, enthusiasm, calcifer a lot in this world. And magnetism was a ten for sure. But I had not been training as long as a lot of these kids had.

Could you do the, what do they call it? Toe point?

Oh, yeah, you could. Okay. I was good.

I don't know much.

I did grade six ballet, which is the highest. I was in intermediate ballet. If you're being a professional dancer, you've done that by the time you're, like 16. And I feel like I was just kind of getting to that point then.

Did you see Billy Elliot when you were young?

Oh, actually, tell a lie. If I had an idol, it was Billy Elliot. It really was. Love that film. Loved that.

Beautiful.

One of my favorites.

You're doing the ballet. Oh, did we get a kick out of the way they were saying ballet here.

Ballet.

Okay, so the first audition, sorry, I.

Don'T go to sketch school. I don't go well, I got in, but it's too expensive. Okay. But I start doing all these other things and I get an agent who sees me do acting and says, you should do that instead. And so starts getting me auditions for things. And I met Pip hall, who is an incredible kids casting director in London, and she was casting for Nanny McPhee to the big bang.

Nanny McVeigh two the big bang.

Yeah. Did you ever watch Nanny McPhee? I didn't. Emma Thompson.

Yeah.

You guys are much closer in age, but you're not terribly close.

Okay, sorry.

And so I try and do Nanny McPhee to the big bang, and that.

Was the first audition. And did you get nervous or was that easy for you?

I used to get really nervous us for auditions, more so than dancing, but it was kind of my process at the time. We would get to reading on the train and then it's 20 minutes until we get to Paddington and I would start freaking out and crying, not like allowedly. I would just go really quiet and my mom would be like, you feeling okay? And I'm like, no, this is so scary. I don't want to do this. She's like, sure, maybe we'll go for the lines. And then we go through the lines. And I'm like, okay, I just need to be, like, silent now until we get to the audition. And then we'd get there and I was such a happy, bright kid.

Your eyes, I'm sitting here and talking to you. They've already had three different levels of moisture in them in the last, like 7 seconds. Do you have the option of like 8 cm diameter or 26 cm?

Yeah, they do.

And that's genetic. Those are your eyeballs.

Yeah. And I think my mom at some point was like, is this really what she should be doing? Because with the dancing, it was never like that, but it was just part of it. I think it's being judged in a way that made me feel a little more insecure than the dancing. I think with the dancing, I was like, I don't actually care if you don't like it because it feels good. Whereas with the acting, it was still very new. Where I was like, this sometimes feels really not great.

I also think it's easier to make your body move through muscle memory in a way you've practiced than it is to go control your voice and your delivery.

Right. And the point is they go, can you do it differently now? And you go, well, maybe, but I've.

Been practicing it this way for the last two days.

Exactly.

Yeah. And you did a ballet thing, and they're like, all right, good. Now do that as a jazz ensemble. You'd be like, I didn't practice that. Yes. Nerve wracking. Now, when you got Arya the script, and I'll be honest, we watched the pilot of the show, and I was like, I don't know, man. The brother and sister are fucking. They killed a kid. I don't know. We put it down for, I don't know, probably a year and a half. And then finally enough people were talking about it. They were like, all right, let's go. Back then, I got fully into it, but it's got a bit of shock value. And I'm just curious, was mom at all concerned about the subject matter?

Not for reasons to not let me do it. We are very fortunate, lucky people, but not really from a place where opportunities come around that often. And we had really been pushing this. I just knew it was what I wanted to do, and I was so lucky that my mom was down for me to do it.

Did you feel a little bit safety netted by it being HBO? Because again, you could read the same.

I had no idea who HBO was.

You didn't?

I had a friend who's part of her family lived in the US, and she was like, HBO is apparently good. And I was like, okay, well, that's good.

Let me dig into this a little bit.

Yeah. We're not cinema fans. We're not television fans. We're not aware of this world at all. There's things that had cut through. This is not the world that we are familiar with. So it turned out to be the jackpot. But also, had it been anything, had it been a tiny role on doctors on BBC, we would have been, like, screaming the house.

Yeah, that makes sense.

But it turned out to be this, which is like, kind of ridiculous and insane.

Yeah. There's only, like a handful of these. I always give the example and I don't know why. And again, you didn't follow TV, so this will mean nothing to you. But Ashton Kutcher's very first audition was that 70 show, and it ran for seven years and was syndicated. You might act your whole life and never get a show that ended up getting syndicated. And sometimes that just happens.

Wait, so how old were you exactly? I forget.

I was twelve when I got the part. Like eleven when I was auditioning.

Oh. So maybe it was at this time of year as we approach your birthday.

It was. I have it tattooed on my own. It was the 7 August 2009, when I got the part.

Oh, I love that you have that tattooed.

That's lovely.

And it's seven, eight, nine, which is cute. I mean, here, you guys would do eight, seven, nine, but you're wrong.

You're right. I was just filling out a visa application today.

Oh, did you do it wrong?

Well, I was on the verge of doing it wrong, but luckily, there was a drop down menu, and then I had to acknowledge we do do it wrong, because it makes no sense. It's not in ascending order. Here. Here. I would say I was born 1275, January 2. But if you think about it, I went month, day, year. It should go day then months, bigger then years.

Biggest.

There is a logic to it, and I don't know how we ended up with.

It's sort of like the big bucket and then the smaller bucket, then the big.

Bucket. It doesn't ascend, and it should.

Yeah, but it's also because you guys say January 4 January 5, whereas we would say the 4 January. So it makes sense already because you're saying 4 January. When you're doing it shorthand, you're going for once.

Well, what you've robbed yourselves of is may the fourth be with you.

Exactly. I actually had an ex boyfriend who was born on May the fourth.

And was he american or English?

He was English, but it didn't make sense for us to be, like, 4 may be with you.

You're, like, totally robbed of that.

That's one thing.

Yeah, that's true.

I wonder what things were missing.

I bet a lot.

Wrong order.

Not a lot.

Stay tuned for more armchair expert. If you dare. You shoot the pilot. What country do you go to?

Northern Ireland.

Which was how far away from where you lived?

It took, like, 45 minutes on an.

Airplane, so that's not bad at all.

No, it's great. At the time, it was the furthest away from my house that I'd been, actually. I tell a lie. I went to Disneyland, Paris.

Ooh, you did? What do you rate it? I've only been to Disney World.

In Disneyland, I was in a push chair. But there's a really funny picture.

Oh, you were in a what?

A pram stroller.

Oh, a wheelchair. That's why I wanted to clarify.

What did you injure?

I was in a stroller, but there's this really funny picture of me next to Tigger, and I look really, really happy.

And were you, like, one? I guess parents will really take their kids to Disney. I mean, my mom and dad took me to Disney, and those strollers.

Yeah. You're a blog for years.

What for?

Yeah, it's beautiful because right out of the gate, you're trying to give them everything you can. I know, it's really sweet. Totally wasted on them. Our kids went all around the world and they don't have a single memory of any of know they were in Cuba when they were fucking three and know.

That is so funny.

Yeah. What are you going to do? Did you feel at all lonely during any of that? Because everyone's a bit older than you.

Not lonely. I was having one on one time with my mom, hanging out with Sophie, who has become my.

How much older is she than you?

A year.

Oh, okay.

We got to stay in a hotel with a pool and a sauna and a bar, and we would go shopping with the perdium. I was like, mom, how much of that perdium do we have left? Because if we shop at Pizza Express again, then we can go to Topshop and get more clothes.

Now, look, the show had so many incredible characters, but for sure, yours is one of the ones, like, you really got. I don't want to say lucky, it's you. It was a very cool character.

She's cool.

She's got her needle.

I love her needle.

I love her needle. And she's a tomboy. You're not supposed to say that, but in all my research, they kept saying it, so now I'm going to say tomboy. But, yeah, it's like going against this frilly kind of other side of it. You're counter programming within it. The whole thing was kind of punk rock.

She was. I only am now really realizing that because I think people would say it a lot, but I was so disconnected from it. When House of the Dragon came out two years ago, I rewatched Game of Thrones because I haven't watched it since it was televised.

Yes.

And there's some episodes that I haven't even seen. The last couple of series I didn't watch because it was just so bizarre. So I was like, okay, I'm going to watch. What is this show?

What is this thing you excited about?

And then I was like, oh, I really understand because I've watched a lot of television since. I really see how that's your special character. I grew up watching Alien and Terminator two. I loved Sarah Connor. I said to my friend while I was filming Game of Thrones, I was like, I want to do a character like that. And then my friend was like, that's sort of like what you're doing.

You are.

Well, congratulations, because you've been doing it for four years.

Right. And so I think now I can look at it and go, yeah. I just feel a sense of pride.

Yeah, you're playing a badass and a little badass. It's also very Natalie Portman. Professional.

Very.

See that?

I did. Yeah.

Breakout role.

I actually met her at a film festival once. It was a cool moment. I could gage a little bit that she knew who I was. So I was like, that's cool. And I was just so excited because of that kind of parallel. I love her. Love her career.

Now, the only episode I want to ask you about is it's kind of a cool distinction to have that you were in the longest fight scene that's ever existed in a movie or on television.

Wait, which one?

From the long night episode. That's the longest battle scene in film and television history. My question is a, what was that like? How many days did you shoot that? Were you completely lost in all the different bits of action? And what's it like to juggle something like that?

So the prep on that was unbelievable. We had started filming in autumn, the year before. We got to that episode in. I think it was like the February of the year after. And we shot for three months at nighttime.

Oh, my God.

Yeah. I mean, I'm saying we. I was there for a handful of nights. Compared to the crew that literally went nocturnal for three months and didn't see any of their family or children, it was a lot. Working on that show required so much more than just the average job for them. So we did a lot of prep. There was this whole rendered version of the episode. And so we all had the script, and we all had this big meeting at the Winterfell castle. A couple of weekends in a row, actually, and they'd bring all the different actors in at different points, and we just talked through the whole thing, and then we had a big map of the castle and where everyone is. It was kind of like a real battle. We had strategizing, and Miguel, our incredible director, had it all in his mind. And so there would be a couple of weekends of these rehearsals. By the way, it's actually snowing at the time, and so it's freezing out there. We also have all the fake snow and the fake fire, and then they just broke it down into the tiny little pieces.

I had a couple of moments where I was working with Sophie. When we're standing and looking at the start of the battle, and we're just looking out into darkness. Yeah. Kind of just messing around. And then there's a big fight thing that I do through one of the battlements. That was another bit. I twist my ankle quite badly that day because I had to run away, and they had all these fake bodies on the ground and it's super dark, so I slipped on one of them and it happens.

How about this? How would you compare your real life athleticism to Aria's?

Oh, I was so much fitter when I was playing Aria. I enjoy exercise for sure, but it's got to be something that I love a little bit.

Dancing.

Yeah. Right. I've got to be doing something that's fun. And when I was doing that, I was loving learning the sword fighting, but I was, like, working with a team every single day, so it's different to getting up and being like, now we're going to jog.

And you were using your left hand even though you're right handed, which is adorable. Yeah, I was right handed in a movie. Well, it didn't even say, but you're.

Left handed in real life.

I'm left handed in real life.

Love that.

Oh, thank you so much. I'm proud of it.

Yeah, it's one of the coolest things.

It's like being an elf, kind of.

It's funny that you're proud of it.

I am. My dyslexia, my left hand.

Okay. I know, but it's something I overcame.

The world's design for right handed. Okay, go ahead.

No, I get it. It's cool because it's rare, of all.

People, you love rare.

I love it. I love that you're left handed. I think it's a little funny that you personally are proud of it.

I am.

That it's not something that you a wins a win. I guess let's just take what we can.

Exactly. I certainly didn't earn it. I just was born this way. But I'll take it.

I get it.

Okay, so back to the left. I did this movie called let's go to prison, and I was a career prisoner. I was constantly in and out of jail. And of course, because I am so proud of being left handed. That's a right handed guy, arbitrarily decided, well, there's no way that guy would be lefty. He's not artistic. He's like a crook. I did not practice really at was. I'm going to be right handed. I'm in a scene with Will Arnett and Michael Shannon, who's scaring the shit out of us, and I go to casually take a bite of food with my right hand. Without ever practicing, I just immediately stabbed myself in the eye with a. I went to hit my mouth and I just went like, oh, fuck. I, like, ruined the take.

Was that kind of in care? Like, was the character?

No, I was pretty cool. I was a tough guy. You should see that.

I haven't seen. I've seen a lot of your.

Or maybe I should be flattered because you're not going to see that guy's movie. I don't know which way to go. Did you ever do anything stupid to yourself because you weren't good with your left hand?

Well, kind of. It was sort of a combination of people's fault. I don't want to say it was fully my fault, but there's a moment where I'm jabbing the hound in his chest plate with my sword. And obviously it's, like, not going through because he's got armor on. And they wanted to get a nice close up shot of the sword warping, but we need to use the real sword that doesn't warp as easily because it's the close shot and it's like money. Yeah. And I jabbed it in, and then a combination of people. It was a lot of cooks. And I'm like, I'm warping it. I'm trying to tell someone how I want to warp it while another person is saying, do you think that you could stab him? And they move the tip of the sword, and where I'm trying to warp it, I flick the sword and crack myself on the eyebrow. And for the rest of the day, they have to shoot me from the other side because I've got this huge.

Egg on my really?

It was so embarrassing. You know when you can hear everyone go like. And I was just like, don't cry, don't cry.

And if you were using your right hand, it maybe wouldn't have happened.

I don't know. I think it probably still would have. I think that was actually just me.

That's a great behind the scenes moment. Like, you have these scenes, you see them on shows and you don't realize, to your point, there's 65 my fucking people involved in this one little thing. Someone's adjusting the collar on your shirt while this is going on. Not only are too many people talking, but all of a sudden you're like, who's pulling on me?

Yeah. And they're like, oh, your mic packs on the floor. And you're like, okay, fine, go.

Someone's, like, dabbing some anti sheen cloth on your face.

Yeah, the wet sponge. Oh, my God. On that show. So we'd have all these neck rags.

Because they were always sweating.

Yeah, we had to be dirty.

Glycerin, right? Is that what they're using?

Yeah, and just fake mud. And Aria, she was so dirty.

You were one of the dirtiers for.

The longest time, too. They got the Emmys, so well done, but they wanted every bit of skin that was ever shown. So if I wasn't wearing socks, then they would dirty, like, up to here on my ankles, all the way up to my elbows, around my neck and my chest. And then they'd put on this huge collar thing and it was great. But oh, my.

I remember this so much because you're negotiating with them. You're like, just so you know. I don't know if you read the whole scene, but I never pull my. My pants up to my knee, nor do I move in a way that could ever happen.

Yeah. I'm like, you're never going to see it. Please.

And then they have this stupid bag. They just keep blotting your clothes with the bag of dirt.

Yeah. And it's like, did you like your lunch? Okay, well, let's put some more dirt on you now.

Let's pig pen you and surround you in a cloud of dirt.

This is why acting is hard. People can act in their bedroom in a vacuum. A lot of people do self tape or even just, I think a person at home when they watch a movie, they think, like, I could do that. But the thing is doing it and being believable and being in character when all that's happening, when people are all around you and you're taken out of it, to then click in so quickly.

It'S like acting natural while getting attacked by a swarm of bees.

It's so much harder than people think that.

By the way, whenever there's, like, the fake food on set, there are bees too, right?

And you're always like, do I ignore the clear? This flies in shots. So should I acknowledge that as a good actor or do ignore it as a good actor?

Yeah. Do I want to interrupt the take even though I know that this is a ruined take?

Yeah, maybe I can salvage it by acknowledging there's a fucking fly.

Yeah. There we go.

Okay. To shift gears to something more emotional when I track my life from twelve, so twelve just to catch up to speed is the highlight of my life. 7th grade, I'm actually super cute. 8th grade, it started to fade. By 9th grade, I'm a cyclops. It goes to hell in a hambasket. I could barely get myself to show up at school a lot of mornings, there'd be like a huge pimple on my nose. I'm like, I cannot see Nicole Gates with this thing on my nose. And the notion that I would have had to have gone through puberty entirely on the most popular show in the world seems very stressful to me.

I think that I am very blessed not to say that you weren't, but my mom is so not a vain person at all.

I'm vain, I admit to it.

I didn't mean to sound like that. But she's the opposite. We don't talk about that. Because why would you?

It's self indulgent.

Exactly. And so I think that that really helped me out, although it didn't stop those feelings. But I really do appreciate that I maybe didn't have the language to be able to describe that discomfort. I just knew it was uncomfortable. I think there was just an acceptance where I was like, well, this is just life, so this is how you're going to feel. And I guess it's not until I've come out the other side and realized, no, that's what it's like when you're 16, or even up until, like, 21.

Well, that's a good point. Like, you might have been crediting it to the experience, but it would have just been that experience anyways. Is that what you're saying?

That's what I think, yes.

But here's what I think would be tricky, is that is the exact period that you also try on some new identities in search of your own. And so the fact that you're locked into this other identity has to be complicated.

Right?

It's not like you can fuck around with a new hairstyle. There's a lot of stuff you can't really fuck around with to figure out who you are.

I know that it was really challenging, but I don't have anything else to compare it to. Yeah, I think it's so much better to ask someone who knows me, like.

What was she dealing with at that time?

Yeah. Because I just really have a hard time being able to see it.

You'd have to be able to imagine what, quote, normal was and then compare it to what you felt.

I didn't love that I couldn't control my image. I didn't love that. Even when I did control my image, everyone had something to say about it. I didn't love that I had to be photographed and on camera, even on the days where I didn't really want to be photographed and on camera. But I loved meeting Emma Stone at the Screen Actors Guild awards and sitting in first class and trying to sneak a champagne when I was, like, 16.

So pros and cons.

Exactly. I think that I really just tried to get through it, and it's not until now I kind of feel bad a little bit for who I was when I was younger because I just didn't know that it was going to get so much better. I had so accepted that and squished myself so small because of those uncomfortable things. And it's not until now that, yeah, I just think about that really earnest girl who was so confused and really thought, this is life, and I got to be grateful that I'm now just able to have so much more fun.

You're probably denying a lot of your feelings, then.

Completely, of course, yeah.

Because of all these things. You'd be ungrateful, and this is great, and you'd stop being a baby and blah, blah, blah. So, post show, come 2019, did you have a phase where basically you lived out what it would have been like to be 16 and in the world?

For sure? The lockdown came pretty close after that point. I mean, I had a summer of amazing fun. I went to all the music festivals, not the Coachellas and the glastonbury's, all of the small ones. I'm very good at being off grid, not with the cameras and such. So I did all that. It was amazing. Then there was a lockdown, and then it was kind of a little existential crisis, like most people went through.

Yes. Also mid 20s.

Right. Yeah.

And you were just trapped for your whole life, and then now it's time to be free, and it's time to go explore. And then you're stuck in your house.

Yeah. But I did kind of love it, though. I was a bit more worried about when it lifted. I was like, oh, God, this is the best thing of my life.

I'm expected to resume living.

Yeah. Things started to lift, and I got another job, and I was like, okay, there's a life outside of the show.

Was that job pistol. And I guess that was the one thing I really wanted to ask you about, other than Game of Thrones, just because I'm kind of obsessed with Danny Boyle, and I grew up loving the Sex Pistols.

I love working with Danny for this. I feel like the theme is chaos and anarchy. Right. And so creating that safe place for chaos and anarchy, he would get up on stage at the beginning of the day and speak about the time of the place and get everyone really riled up and then we'd shoot and party, and it's like the middle of the lockdown. And so we're in these clubs in London, fake partying with fake cigarettes and fake beers, and it just was so cathartic to shout and scream. And the boys played live music throughout the whole show. And so we just got to wear these crazy hair and makeup, watch all these gigs.

You're, like, robbed of some things as a young actor, and then also, you're gifted, so you got to kind of have the 80s punk experience, right, and then get a paycheck on Friday.

Exactly. That was a cool job where I was like, I feel like I'm sitting into this acting thing.

And now here's a question. So I did a lot of exploration of different identities, and I would, like, try out looks. Some felt right and some didn't. I loved that. So when you were in character of Jordan, because she defined a whole esthetic. So when you were first in the get up, were you like, fuck, yeah. I think this is kind of for me. I kind of could do this in real life.

Yeah, for sure. I was wearing all of this latex and these fake leathered things and plastic PVC. And I think before that, it's COVID. I was wearing sweats the whole time, and then I was like, oh, this is so crazy. And then I was like, this feels fucking powerful.

Yeah. The thing that appealed to me about it, and I've said it ad nauseam on here, is, in a weird way, it's a complete rejection of the rules everyone else is playing by. And there is the perception that you're so confident that you don't need to go after the conventional validation. And even though you're insecure, the outfit gives it to you. Other people buy it, and then it reverse engineers onto you completely. And you do feel confident. You're like, yeah, look at me. I'm walking around like a fucking freak. No one's brave enough to do this.

Walking on to sat as Jordan, I was like, this is how it feels to conduct yourself in this way. It just all comes right back at you. And I was like, all right, well, when this lockdown's done, okay, now we.

Must talk about the new look. I'm hoping you know a lot of the history of this, because I recently heard someone stand up set.

I think it was Bill Burrs about chanel.

Yeah.

Was it his?

Okay, so you're scared.

I am not saying.

So the show that you're now in, that comes out on a very auspicious day for us. Valentine's day, our anniversary for this six year anniversary.

Oh, my God. Amazing.

The new look, which is on apple plus. Okay. Set in World War II. Walk me through the history of this. Why? Is this the period by which we would want to look at? Yeah. Yeah. You guys are going to have to take over.

Christian Dior, Coco Chanel. It's set during World War II, and it's a time in history that we've seen so many stories about. But it's crazy to think that this is also when the golden era of fashion is happening in Paris. So Chanel, at this point, is the grand d'am of fashion. She's an icon, and she's, like, the ruler of couture. Christian Dior is working for a designer called Lucien Lalong. Lucian Delong will be played by John Malkovich. Ooh.

There's a million questions about that.

But earmarked his younger sister, who is who I play Catherine Dior is part of the french resistance. So Nazi occupied Paris. Christian's working for Luciana Long, making money, bankrolling his sister so his sister can be part of the resistance. Stay in his apartment, be safe, but go and do this very dangerous work. She gets captured and taken to the camps.

This is all historically happened. Sister was in the resistance, resistance, resistance. Even better.

And all the while, he's working with Lucian along. And then at some point while she's away, he decides he wants to start his own fashion house. And so this is kind of the story of how people survived during the war, how businesses survived during the war, how, when the worst things in our lives happen to us, you can kind of push that into your work and create something which revolutionizes fashion. The new look is one of the most revolutionary collections that there has ever been.

And it was called the New look.

Well, it was coined by a journalist for Harper's Bazaar. She was called Carmel Snow. In our show, she's played by Glenn Close. Oh, legendary Glenn close. John Malkovich sharing the screen for the first time since dangerous liaison. I know that's the backdrop. So it's a show about fashion. There's glamor, but you're seeing the real human story. Dior sitting around the table with Christopher Balenciaga and Pierre Cardano. All of these names, they grew up together in Paris.

That's when it all started. And they would eat at Cafe de Flora.

Yeah, apparently.

Yeah. Okay, great. Remember how much I wanted to eat? I am. It's legendary. I still want to go. We never did go. Oh, we did a secondary.

Okay.

You had to, like, pull some strings.

Yeah. I had to find someone that knew me in France. Wasn't the easiest task.

So excited for this show. This is so up my.

I watched the trailer. I was like, Monica is going to spray.

Oh, I'm so excited. I love fashion.

There we go. So how much do you know about this story?

Only the not allowed to talk about.

Right. She only knows how to buy it.

Oh, well, that's fun. That's great.

You're super into fashion. Yes, we're going to get to that. Now, the reason that I think I find my way into this show is to your point. We've seen so many stories of the Nazis come in, France falls in 2 seconds, and they all live under Nazi rule, but we never get into how the sausage is made during that time. It's very curious to me how businesses still functioned and how they had these Nazis around. That is a very curious period. If you imagine us being overthrown tomorrow by Russia, but we're still allowed to do this podcast. That's what was happening. Like, it's weird. I mean, we wouldn't be able to do this.

They'd kill us.

We're on record not liking Putin, right?

Well, yeah. They would want to take it over and hear you saying, actually, I take it all back. I love him.

Yes. I just learned of some of his childhood traumas and I'm very needs to reassemble the USSR.

Yeah. So it was a massive know. Chanel closed shop. She said, that's it. We're not doing business. But Lucy and along stayed open. And this is what this show really gets into, is that it's not black and white. It's very complicated, these stories. And there is right and there's wrong, there's truths and there's fiction, of course, but there's what happened, and there's everyone's side of the story. There's nuance. There is. And that's what you can do in 10 hours of television.

You're right. Even the thing we're not going to talk about, the bottom line, is no one in this conversation knows what it's like to be occupied within a week by the Third Reich. So how we all think we would act is just kind of a fantasy. We're projecting the best version of ourselves. Not the most scared, the most hungry, the most terrified. No one knows what they would do.

It was a terrifying time for a lot of people. And we look back now and go, oh, this is the right and the wrong side.

It's so obvious retrospect.

I think what the story does really well is dive into how complex that is when you're dealing with people that don't have the same rulebook as us.

They have a whole different code of ethics.

Exactly. It's kind of impossible for us to just be playing by our rulebook. What if I could do it like this? No. Someone's got a gun to your head. That's not how we're doing it.

You know that thing we're not allowed to talk about?

Yeah.

Two things. One, they shouldn't sue us, because if they do, they're just taking money out of their own.

They're going to get your money anyways.

Right. They might as well not exactly.

Just buy another bag and say, sorry.

It'S pennywise and poundful.

That's right.

To steal a.

Also one good PR move. I studied PR.

You have a degree.

A good PR move for them.

Great.

Would be to hire someone. Not Aryan.

Indian specifically. Maybe Indian.

To maybe do a campaign.

There we go. That's what they should like.

A good PR move.

I'm just saying it's a great counterpunch. Tell me why. Because I'm a philistine. What was Christian Dior's proprietary genius? What made him be able to compete with Chanel?

I think that he, at the time, was not only an incredible artist dressmaker, but he also knew business. He was putting influences in his dresses before we were doing that whole thing. It's like dressing people that are really controversial in Paris. This is post war. Not controversial for those reasons, but people who are making headlines. He's taking them into couture. And it was that kind of thing that really disrupted the landscape at the time.

Right. From my era, using punk rockers and stuff, Madonna being somebody you would bring into high fashion, all these kind of provocative moves.

Exactly.

Also just beautiful tailoring.

Yeah. And the new look. So during World War I, Chanel is taking away the corsets given women trousers. Very progressive in terms of the feminist movement. This is also the controversy of it all. Dior brings back corsets tiny waist and lowers the hemlines again, back to something a little Elizabethan. Right. That's also another storyline that's going on in the show. But he's trying to bring back this time before the war, when things were opulent and when women didn't have to work.

A fantasy, nostalgia.

But that silhouette that he coined, you'll see it everywhere.

That's the one. This is what I was going to ask. They obviously wouldn't have your character in this show unless she played some kind of significant role in his journey. Right? So how did she impact his voyage, other than he was housing a criminal.

When she returned and survived? I mean, how anyone even kind of returns to life after going through something like that is obviously not without a lot of turmoil. But they grew up together in Granville, and their parents had this incredible garden and lots of roses. Dior moved into perfume, and he created this perfume that he ended up naming after her, called Miss Dior. But Catherine speaks about smelling that perfume for the first time. This is post war. This is when she's back in calion and just trying to sort of scramble a life back together. And she spoke about smelling that perfume, and for the first time since that really traumatic part of her life, feeling back in her body again and back to herself. And I think Dio was a gay man, but at a time where I was not. Okay. Catherine always really accepted him for that, but he didn't have a lot of these female muses. It makes sense that the only woman in his life who he loved and adored this feminine energy was his sister, Catherine. And so she became the original muse. When we think about fashion muses, think about the models of today, we think about these big billboards.

It's kind of nice to learn about this woman who was not a particularly glamorous woman. She was hardworking, tough, and a soldier. I just think that that's lost from the consciousness a little bit.

It reminds me of Esther Perel talking about having grown up in, I think, Belgium, in a community of Holocaust survivors, and how what came to define who thrived and who it killed was who had accepted eroticism back into their life. And not, in our colloquial interpretation, eroticism, but just life. And, like, smelling those flowers or that perfume, it seems like a convenient story device, but literally, that's what Esther Perl said made the difference for people, whether they thrived or not ever again. It's like, could they latch onto the sensual and could they latch onto the life?

Yeah.

How much of this did you know prior to doing this, and how much have you learned from doing it?

I knew various. I knew about the collection, the new look. I'd always been fascinated by that silhouette. And as someone who enjoyed fashion, I knew the impact of that collection. But I knew nothing about Catherine. I knew nothing about Dior. I knew nothing about Chanel, tod Kessler.

The showrunner of it. He comes from bloodline, sopranos and damages. So why is this his project?

Well, I mean, Tod could probably speak about this better than I can, but when I got on a call with him, and what made me so excited about doing this show with him was he just came at it so organically. I think he first had this idea 20 years ago or something. I think he was sitting in a waiting room, and there was this book on Dior's life. And I think he draws similarities between Dior's incredible life and career and tragic, very sudden passing.

How old was he when he died?

I think he was, like, in his 40s, maybe. Yeah.

Now I'm seeming a little old. Right, you're going to take back that.

Earlier comment and then his late friend James Scandalfini and similar conversations that he had had, that he was reading Indio's memoir. And I just think that he had this moment where he was like, I don't know anything about fashion. I don't know anything about this world. But what I do think I understand is this character Dior, and I think that I want to read more. And then, obviously, this is the precipice of fashion as we know it now.

It is wild that these brands that are still at the very apex are going on 80 years old from that time. I'm sure Chanel is 100 years old. I don't know how old Chanel is, but it's kind of wild. So you learned a lot of it from doing the show, but then you also supplement. Did you read anything? Is there anything cool I should read? Did you read the Christian Dior biography or something?

Yes, I think it's called Dior on Dior or Dior by Dior. That's a great little memoir that he's done.

Oh, he wrote it himself.

Yeah.

Oh, wonderful.

There's this other incredible book which is called Miss Dior, and that's by Justine Picardi, and she does a full detail of Catherine's life. She also did one on Coco Chanel, which I've not read, but apparently very, very interesting. And then there are also these papers that were sealed shut post war. There's, like, a whole legal process that's going on, and there's so much evidence and there's so many statements that a lot of things get redacted and they get sealed off. And there's a couple of papers that.

I think came to light recently.

I think it was like, maybe the 80s that have not been told on screen before. And so I think a lot of this Adam has taken and put into our show.

Maisie, you cannot tell that you didn't go to school.

Yes, I agree.

That is so flattering.

Yeah.

Someone tell the Daily Mail that you.

Haven'T been in school since you're 14. They shamed you.

Yeah. It was so backhanded and bizarre.

Such a great publication. I'm so shocked. It's the only one I've ever sued and won.

Oh, my God. Amazing.

Yeah.

Can you tell me about it?

Well, just that you can't print pictures of children in England. Thank God. It's the one thing they have. And then they did that and then we were like, hey, you're not allowed to do that. We sued them and we won. I mean, you just do it so they'll stop. You don't get anything. You get your legal fees. It's not like I got any money.

But they said you didn't go to school.

Yeah, they just did a nice profile on me when I was 15 or 16 because I did leave and was homeschooled instead. And it's so not a bizarre thing, but they just treated it. I think this is also a lot of classism, perhaps.

I was going to say this feels a little more english.

It's like, had I been in a super wealthy family, a private school, and then taken out and homeschooled in a very bohemian way, you know what I mean? It would have been, oh, she's interesting. It was not that.

You're just a junkyard dog, right?

And they were like, how will she ever fucking cope?

Oh, my God. Do you have insecurities at all about that?

Not at all, no. I really didn't love school, so I think it was good to cut ties. But I think about it a lot. If and when I have children, I'm like, what will I do with them? Because a lot of things in my history, although I wouldn't love to do it again, definitely made me a more interesting person. How far do you traumatize your children in order to make them interesting?

I'm currently evaluating that hourly.

There we go. You give your kids everything and you're like, you're never going to be cool now.

Well, yeah, there's that. And then also, you do. You give them everything and then they don't get something for the first time in their entire life at 19, and they have zero fucking coping mechanism. And then Xanax seems very appealing at that point. There we go.

Downward spiral.

Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare. I have two completely inane questions. One is, will you explain to me the cultural relevance of Doctor who? This is like a very big thing in England, right?

It is.

Has there been multiple versions of it? Explain it to me.

So Doctor who is a character.

Is he like James Bond?

I guess he's like James Bond and he's on television and at a certain point he regenerates and becomes a new body and he's just this massive franchise and there's all these crazy aliens that come back time and time again and it's like James Bond. You know what you're going to get. But it is huge. I saw Louis Theroux recently and I was so like, oh, my God, it was Louis Theroux.

My money. Don't jiggle, jiggle.

Right, fold. I'd had a little alcoholic beverage, so I was like, oh, my God, you're doing your own things now. If you want to interview me, you should.

Yes.

And then he's like, oh, yeah, you're on Doctor who. And I was thinking, well, not the first one that people go to, but okay, that's fine. But it is.

It's like an institution there. Right. Seems to be one of the only ones that you guys have that hasn't really transferred here.

Yeah.

Right. Because even we went mad for Downton Abbey and we've gone mad for these things. But I guess there are fans of it.

But it's more culty for fans.

I'd say it's like that in the UK.

Oh, really?

Yeah, I think it's more culty. There was David Tennant's era that I watched growing up because it was like part of the reboot, but it's an acquired taste.

Yeah. And is there an era that people unanimously agree is the high watermark for Doctor who? Like, if I were going to check it out, which era should I be watching?

David Tennant.

That's the one.

David T. Broad church.

Oh, I love broad church.

He's the main dude. He's so good.

He's so good.

You can't date him because you saw his shit.

Yeah, he's not for me. I'm too big of a fan.

Although she said she would date Sean Penn, who's 70, and you've seen all this stuff, so. Some of these people do, yeah.

Who are we setting you up with, then?

Sean Penn. Who else was on your list?

Pitt.

Brad Pitt, obviously.

That's a givey.

Yeah.

It's like, what haven't I watched yet? Right.

None of the Brad Pitts movies.

I haven't seen anything of him. I just heard he's good.

Wow, Birdie's good looking.

Yeah, I haven't seen him, but people think he's handsome.

I've heard he's.

Yeah, he seems to be a synonym for hottest person ever to live. I'm inclined to believe people.

I saw on Instagram a picture today of him and Gwyneth Paltrow when they were dating and they're, like, walking the street. He has a cigarette hanging out of his mouth. I mean, he was cool. He's so cool, but still so cool.

Would you date him now? Yeah. I mean, where is the age breaker for Brad Pitt?

I think I would date some people his age, but I wouldn't date him.

Not him.

What about too nice, too hot, too.

Nice, too famous, too rich?

He's not your type.

Too good in bed.

I don't know what it is, I guess. Haven't met him. Don't know yet.

I think he'd make you feel very self conscious.

Yeah, I think if we're going down.

That we're going full circle now, I'd.

Be like, actually, you know what?

Too much.

You know what?

I'd be like constantly thinking about everyone else he's date and being like, oh, Jesus.

Yeah, but it didn't work out with those people.

Yeah, that doesn't mean it's going to work out with me, though. But okay.

I actually think of all people, I would be the least self conscious with him because he's so famous. He really has his full pick. Besides you, who you've said no to me.

Very shortly.

Sorry, Brad.

Keep shopping, bro.

But everyone would say yes to him. So if he's saying, I really like you, I would really be able to take that to heart because it just has all the options and he's picking me.

Okay, then you don't feel as insecure.

And you have nothing to offer Brad Pitt. You're not going to elevate. You don't have a cooler plane than him. There's nothing on the table. All you have is you, which he doesn't have. The one thing he doesn't.

Beautiful.

So who's the oldest actor you would date? I just want to get a barometer here. Can you think of a couple that are old?

Yeah, like Matthew McConaughey. That's a good pick.

Have you heard my McConaughey? You'd have to shut your eyes.

Yeah, okay.

Close your eyes.

Maisie, Maisie, Maisie. Just checked out the new look. Boy, you're dynamite. You're so good. Of course I liked you in the Game of Thrones, but who didn't? This is way more you. You're a revolution. I'm old as fuck. But guess what? You'll never know it. It's still going. First of all, let's read the impression before we get grossed out.

It was very, very good. It was like he was in the room with me.

That's so nice. And guess what? He's back.

You have the little whistle, too.

Well, I got a whole thing because Monica throws up when I do impersonation. So I cover myself.

It just won't stop.

Which is crazy, because I love news.

Once you click in, you just don't want to.

I start channeling him, I think I start thinking like him. Yeah, I had a post once. I was in Sedona sitting on a rock, and I started talking like him. And then I was feeling what I know he would be feeling. And I came up with something that I wouldn't think of this thing. But I was like, yeah, I know. Sorry, Monica. It's this time of the show.

We're going to do it again. With. On the Instagram?

Yes. Because.

For Maisie. For Maisie.

Okay.

Yeah, it's for me. Okay.

But this just came into my head. He's like, this place makes me want to meet the man upstairs. Shake his hand. I'll see how he's doing. Doesn't that sound like this? So McConaughey would want to shake God's hand?

It's a very left handed quality that you're showing us. Right.

Thank you.

There's no one who does that, Monica.

I'm happy that she said that to you.

I don't think so.

Yes, I am. I just want you to be careful.

Tread lightly.

Yeah, I just want you to be really careful.

He would say tread lightly, too.

He would.

Green lats. Okay, that's a good one. So, McConaughey, is there anyone else?

Yeah, that's a good one.

This is a fun game.

Now I'm like blanking.

And to any older actor you didn't pick, it's just because he forgot you.

Exactly.

Except Brad. Who do you think that I should date? I'm in the market. Okay, if that was the game. The first time I date someone older, they're an actor. It's making the headlines. Who is it? Oscar Isaacs.

Oh. Boom.

That's a great one.

Yeah, he's great.

He's phenomenal. Oh, Sam Rockwell. He's married, but let's forget.

Yeah. Everyone's a silly game. We're not playing Sam Rockwell. Sam Rockwell. Yeah.

Actually, I would place you with him.

Oh, cool.

If I were your agent, that's who I would try to get general with.

I'm going to write to my company immediately.

Keep an eye on marriage.

Put him on my Google alert.

One last one. He might be too serious for you.

Okay.

But artistically, I want this for you. Mark Ruffalo.

Great.

No, I'm not. I think he's more playful than we think.

Yeah. Did you guys watch poor things?

Yes.

A what? A fucking movie. Back to our girl, Emma Stone, the Revelation. And then Ruffalo is just mind blowing.

I have a podcast. We just did an episode on poor things.

What was your takeaway?

Well, so I have two girls that I do it with. We all work in film and we talk about movies.

What's the name of it? Shout it out.

Frank Film Club.

Frank Film Club.

With Maisie Williams. Yeah, naturally, with Mark Ruffalo. So the girls. Maisie Ruffalo loved love, loved his performance. And it's not that I didn't love it. I just felt like he felt uncomfortable playing that. And he did. He spoke out a lot about how sort of uncomfortable he was doing it.

Because of the misogyny or because of the accent?

The accent. Just purely the accent.

The characters.

Sometimes I think movies are ruined because you're just looking at the actor behind, trying to be like, is this making you feel uncomfortable, the fact that you.

Even know he's american doing this a little bit because it could just be an English bloke doing a buffoonish accent.

Exactly. But the girls, they love, love, loved it. But I just felt really uncomfortable for him. And then he spoke out about being uncomfortable. The point of all this is that I may have shot myself in the foot with Mark ever.

No, this is ideal because you're probably the only woman in the country that.

There we go.

Hard to get.

Yeah, I'm actually just saying it to be hard to get.

Unobtainable, limited edition.

Oh, we love it.

I found that movie to be insanely profound. And again, I think it's part of me being an older guy.

Right. Because you were just like, how can a woman have so much agency?

Obviously, that is not my disposition, but I thought it was among the most feminist movies I've ever seen in my life.

Okay, cool.

And I think it nailed on the head, this thing that no one's really done yet in a movie. And I think we saw it. I hate to keep bringing it up, but if you've seen the Anthony Bourdain documentary, it was very present in. I think there's this terrible trope that is real where older men fall in love with younger women and they're attracted to their effervescence and their gaiety. For life and whatever, their looseness and playfulness, and then the second they have it, they're so threatened by it, and they have to absolutely snuff it out because they're so scared, they can't keep it. And I don't know that I've ever seen that done as well as it was done in this movie. I see that all around, especially in this town. I see a lot of older dudes that tried to capture a butterfly in their fucking net, and then it drives them mad.

Yeah, we're hoping for that with you.

Well, that's what's going to. I am.

You're going to do that?

I'm the butterfly.

Can you imagine McConaughey losing his shit over you?

I'd love to watch that. Just him devolve.

It's interesting hearing that, because we're three girls and we talk about the movie, and we just constantly speaking about her perspective, but I love hearing that take because we did not bring that up at all, and that's it. But we just love that the entire time, she has full control, and it's just this suggestion that the guy feels like he's kind of trapped this. But the whole time she is doing exactly what she wants. It just so happens that for a couple of pages of the movie, it seems to align with what he wants, too. And it's quite amazing.

Willem's character has great fear of her and even more, Rami's character. They have such great fear of her joining this lothario. And as an audience member, you have the fear. You're like, she's a child. This guy clearly has bad intentions. And then, yes, quickly you realize, oh, no, this gal will never be dominated by anybody, which is really incredible. But I think all of us succumb to that immediate thought of, like, oh, no.

Yeah.

Young, innocent girl, older man. I think probably 90% of the problems in the world derive from men's insecurity that they're not pleasing a woman. I think if you chase down all the wars, all the building businesses, all the building bridges, all of it is about the fear that their dicks are too small. All these things just burbling under all of male culture. And I think that was very on display in this movie as well.

Wow. Yeah, well, they're not, so keep the wars coming. I'm kidding.

Maisie, this has been really fun. I love hearing your above 50 list. This could be maybe a runner. We do.

Yeah, we could keep.

Let's think about it. Why don't you text us when there's more people?

Yes.

Okay.

Would you feel better about it if I also had the young male actors say, what old gals they would date?

I don't even like the term old gal.

Well, I'm saying old men.

It's different. The way we look at older women in this country versus older men is so different.

It's not comparable. It's a bad comp. You're right.

Also, I feel like we would be picking actors over 50 and we'd be picking actresses that are, like, barely 35.

Exactly.

It feels like there's a lot of damage control that comes with this segment. I'm actually also worrying in my head currently.

No, you're safe.

I don't live here.

It's our fault.

Monica's right. Because finally it's different.

It's just different.

It's how it is.

I'm going to date a 22 year old man.

Great.

And I'm going to balance this all out.

Now, is that a segment you'd rather have if we had older female actors in and we asked them what young.

Bucks I think our segments are doing. I think we're fine.

We're fine. We don't need to add any more segments. Okay. Green light. All right. This has been so much fun. I want everyone to watch the new look. Monica is going to absolutely explode.

Wait. I'm going to learn so much and enjoy it.

I hope you love it.

It's clearly a very high budget, well made show too. I mean, we're in fucking Paris in 1944. Okay. The new look. Apple plus maisie. So much fun. Come back.

Yes, please come back.

I will. I would love to.

Okay, great.

Yeah. When I get cast in something again, there's a real reason. If not, I'll just come to chat.

Yeah, we like people just coming to chat.

And I'm glad I caught you in the phase of your life where you don't mind doing press.

Yes.

The very last thing I have to say, this was the other a name thing was Arya became one of the most popular baby names during that show. And what's funny is, so did Khaleesi. One of my best friends named his daughter Khaleesi.

Okay.

Arya got out just fine. Yeah, you're still pumped. I still love Khaleesi, though.

I don't really care.

Yeah. I still like her.

But it took a turn.

It did.

She's the only other person from the show. We've interviewed.

Amelia.

Yeah, Amelia.

But we should have Sophie on. Love to have her on.

She's promoting a new show. Soon.

You guys are still buddies?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's her birthday.

Ooh. Going out. Hollywood.

Hollywood wine o'clock. All right. Adore you. This has been so much fun. Good luck with everything. Good luck with the new look. Sounds similar.

Thank you. Bye.

Stay tuned for the fact check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong. You. Oh, what do we got here? I got a hunch I know what it is. Can you guess it yourself? Miniature mouse with maximum brain power.

Is it our. Oh, it's a best boy plaque.

I think it's the best boy award. It's the best boy award.

Let's see it.

Unveil.

It's a bust. Boy of our best boys.

Oh, my God. Wait, is it Jimmy?

Yes.

Hold on, let me get closer.

Wow.

It looks just like.

Best boy award awarded to Jimmy Kimmel for being the best boy in the world.

Oh, my God. I love it. I don't even want to give that to him.

Do we have multiples? No, just one.

Wait.

Take a picture and send it to him.

No, he's got to receive it. We can't keep the best boy award.

I want to keep it.

He earned it. I mean, we can order a second. They kept the molding for me. Yeah. Imagine the expensive parts of the first one. Yeah.

Was it 3d printed?

No, I had to give him pictures. That's the picture we took out there. And then I found some other angles so they could get everything shaped right.

Wow. Well, we have to take a picture for sure.

And I might have to drive over there or something, which was great. He won't even know.

He doesn't know what it is.

No, he has no clue that he's already been the best boy for months and a very busy week for him. Right. Are the Oscars. Yeah, Sunday. Sunday. So the Oscars were yesterday.

Right.

You think I should go on stage at the Oscars and present it to him? That'd be a great publicity stunt for armchair expert.

It would.

Our expert. It came out weird.

Armchair expert.

Yeah.

We need more visibility.

We got to up our. What an impressions. We need impressions and reposts. Oh, engagement. That's the word. I was looking. This is Rob. This is really incredible. You see the beard, the detail of the beard? They did a great job with it. Oh, my lord. You want to get shout out to the company Christian and Natalie at just us monuments. Just us monuments. This is gorgeous.

I mean, I agree with you.

It kills me to give this away.

I know, because, you know what we.

Should have is we should have, like, a little there's no room in here to do it, but put a little shelf up and then have like a Mount Rushmore of.

Can we do that?

Yeah, let's do got. We need some space, but we'll figure, oh, we can put something there.

We can put a little shelf above that.

I imagine if we go long enough, entering this room will be impossible for the guests. It really looks more and more like diagonally's sorcerer shop.

Yeah, it does, right?

Or my favorite kind of old school hardware stores where all vertical space is taken out. Yeah, the one right on Western is incredible. That way every square inch of the store has got merch on it.

We can do a floating shelf on this above the picture of the plane.

Oh, sure.

And then that'll be perfect.

That would be perfect, yeah. Just below the about to collapse crawl space. Attic entry.

Yeah.

Well, who was it that just walked in there? Like, boy, this has really become adorned since my first Bateman. He couldn't help but notice the strides that were.

Well, you were saying you saw a very old picture from one of the first episodes where you're in the rolling chair.

I'm in the Rob's rolling chair and I'm 2ft from the guest.

Yeah.

Oh my God.

So weird.

So awkward. It's like an empty room at that point too. It's just that desk and nothing else.

So funny.

You know what it reminds me of is like, over the course of a school year, your locker would get more and more shit in it and it almost pains you to tear it all down. And this is like a locker that just, we never have to turn in. It just keeps accumulating.

You're right. Posters, junk.

Yeah.

I never had really the luxury of the locker experience.

Why?

Because our high school was so big that my locker was. I never had time to go to it.

But you had a locker.

Yeah. You had to cross campus. You had like seven minutes. And it was stressful.

Take the tram from the airport, basically.

Sometimes your locker is often in a building you're not in and you can't go that way. And then turn. It didn't make any sense. So I just carried all my books, everything you needed.

Your go bag, as they call it in the CIA. How many students?

It split into two schools. When we started, my class had 1000 students.

Your class school had 4000 students at the beginning.

Yeah.

And then a new school opened and half of the people went okay, so.

When you graduated, there were 2000 students probably.

Yeah.

That's outrageous. I think we were 1200 all in. I think it was about 400 a grade?

Yeah.

Although after I left, and even when you were in Michigan with me, I drove you past there.

Yes.

And it's turned into, like, an Amazon distribution center. It's three times the size. They built over it and on it so much that when I look at it, I'm like, I don't even really know where you used to enter it. Like, just swallowed it up. Like those cells that Bill was telling us about. What stories? So now that you're out and about, what stories do you find that you are telling?

Um, I've told the space continuum, the little girl.

Oh, hi, Dax.

Yeah, I've talked about her a fair.

Amount because I had a dinner with Charlie and Eric, so that got to be a fun know, you cater to your audience, and there was so much to select from over the seven days. So I noticed that that dinner, of course, it's all comedy. I'm going straight comedy. And then I was talking to Aaron this morning on FaceTime. And, of course, for Aaron, I knew the thing he'd relate most to, because we're from the same dirt road, is how much you and I did not. We were so scared. We weren't doing what we were supposed to be doing. We didn't know what value we were adding to anybody. And we just kept thinking, like, why on earth did they let us come here? So Aaron and I were laughing so hard about the notion that the participants.

At each breakfast plus you and talked about, I have told some people about that, and I forgot a piece that when we were at that fancy breakfast and totally didn't belong and were waiting to be, I feared, introduced. I took the wrong person's napkin.

Oh, right. But it was the cute young billionaire. To me, it felt like a meet cute.

Well, it was the guy who owned.

The equivalent of Instacart and postmates and uber Eats. Like, total market dominance. He's a titan.

Yes.

But he was also young and in a sweatshirt.

Yeah, it was, like, very stereotypical billionaire. Because we were told to wear business formal.

Yes. And we complied.

We did, and he didn't. But he didn't have to, I guess.

But it was his napkin you took. So it was such a meet cute. They put the two youngest people next to each other at the table. And then you stole his napkin on accident. Do you think this was a missed meet cute?

Maybe he was cute. Yeah, he was.

Yeah. He exuded a confidence one has when they build something monumental.

He did. And he was being humble. Like, he was explaining his thing to Bill. And then everyone kept chiming in to really tell him the truth about it, which is like, it's huge. When I did like that. But yeah, I took his napkin on accident because I grabbed from the wrong side, and then he had to point to the other napkin. It was so embarrassing.

But also cute.

It's just so pretty woman, where you don't know what you're doing and you're using the wrong four.

You're exposing your low station in life.

Exactly.

Yeah. Anywho, we got distracted. Best boy award.

Best boy.

What else? We had dinner. Any gossip from dinner?

Of course. Eric and I argued for a while about the sim because I said the point bill made. Did I say it on the last fact check? So we had the audacity to ask Bill if he thought it was possible that we could be in a sim.

Right.

And he said there is so much data in the universe that there is no computer that would ever fit on a planet that could handle all the data that exists in this universe to be recreating it. And that the only way there would be a simulation is if this universe was a simulation from a much bigger universe somewhere else.

Yeah. Which makes sense.

Yeah. But Eric was really hung up on the notion that it could be tricking you and it doesn't really know all the data of the universe. And that when we point our telescope somewhere and start getting information, it's just kind of tricking, like. But that wouldn't hold up. It couldn't do a random generated. None of it would logically flow. We couldn't base any.

Can they wipe our memories and stuff? We don't know their powers.

We don't know that we weren't born.

Five minutes ago, and we don't know if they, like, existed. Do something with our eyes, and then we think we see something and we don't.

But we are in an observable reality, and we are measuring all kinds of data from the reality, and it's consistent. It's not like you measure that thing and it says it's 6 meters, and then you measure the thing next to it, and it says it's 26 meters and they're the same height. It's hugely consistent. So they would have had to build the entire universe.

I just think if they make a mistake, they can probably fix it. Clean our memory like they do in.

Harry Potter or men in black. My favorite franchise.

Sure. Well, you already said Diagon alley.

I did. That was for you. It's conceivable, too, if we have microscopic elements, that our universe is microscopic for another place right. That's what he's saying, is that it would have to be in a different universe, ten X, the size of ours, to have a planet big enough that could house a thing big enough that could hold all the data and process it and be recreating it in a consistent, logical way. Yeah, but Eric, it's really funny, because when you just want to believe in something, it's very that Jonathan height thing where it's like, if your gut tells you something, all your logic really bears no influence on it.

Affirmation bias.

Yeah, and I get it. Eric likes the idea that it could be. And so it doesn't really matter if someone 40 times smarter than us says, why it couldn't be.

Well, he's saying in theory, if there is a universe bigger, like it could. He's just saying that it would require a different universe.

Exactly.

But Eric's saying. But Eric's fight was that this universe could create it. And I was like, if he says it can, he knows everything about computing power. I think we have to defer to him on that point that it couldn't exist within this. I mean, now you're feeling a little bit too, because you like the.

I just, I think it's okay to poke holes, which Eric did.

I think it is too. What I'm pointing out is that he would acknowledge that this person who says it's not possible in this universe is way smarter than him. And so he would never say, like Bill said this about AI, but I got a hunch AI doesn't work that way. He would absolutely defer to Bill about that. Well, sure, but because he has an emotional connection with this idea about the sim, he is able to disregard Bill's opinion. And that's a very interesting human aspect.

Well, it is, but I think it's because this is opinion. This isn't fact. Like, if he's asking about AI, there's facts. He's going to take all Bill's facts and knowledge, but the sim is unknowable. We don't know. No one knows.

But I would argue it's a fact. What Bill's saying about the size of the computer that would be required to hold all of the data that exists in the full universe, I think that's not his opinion. He knows about computing and the.

Yeah, for sure. But Eric's point is that we're being tricked, so there's no way to know if we know many. It's so many layers.

I could like, I would totally accept Eric going, okay, great, then, yeah, it's a much bigger universe that has a planet on it that's the size of our universe that does have a computer that's that big and can hold all of it. But he didn't shift to that.

Right.

And so that's what I'm pointing out, which is very fascinating about humans, myself included. You have an emotional feeling about something, and you're able to even disregard someone who clearly has a much better guess than you do.

Right? Yeah, we all do that, I guess.

Yeah. We're all guilty of it.

I had something to tell you. Some news.

Hot news.

I thought maybe.

What did you do last night? Let me help you jog your memory.

Let's see. I had lunch with you. Had you hung out with your friend, too, yesterday?

Yeah, I had a meeting for a couple hours, and I was on the side of town that uncle grandpa lives on. My best friend, Tom Hanson.

Friend of the pod.

Yes. It was great. We had a full 3 hours sitting in the kitchen just talking nice, and it was just beautiful. I cherished it.

Great.

And then I got home and the whole family started. Love on the spectrum.

Oh, yeah.

And as promised, it is the cutest show imaginable. It's so heartwarming.

Yeah.

Have you tried it yet?

No.

Yes. It's infectious.

Good.

Yeah.

Well, this is for Maisie.

Maisie.

Yes. I got excited again listening to it because of all the fashion.

Oh, yeah. Have you started the show?

Not yet.

It's out now.

Yes, it's out. I have to watch it.

Oh, you know what Uncle Grandpa told me yesterday?

What?

He watched the movie ironclaw. That Jeremy Allen White.

Zac Efron.

Yes. Have you seen it?

No, I've just seen the previews.

Oh.

He said it's really good.

Really?

Yeah. And I guess they're monster Lee in it.

Yeah.

Everyone's a monster because we got Roadhouse coming out. Have you been seen any of the.

Previews for that saw on Jake's Instagram? Yeah.

And his physique is.

He's in shape.

It's banging.

I don't think. I mean, you can't do roadhouse and not be right. That's like the whole thing.

Swayze was the first. Swayze is the first one. You had Arnold and you had sly, but they were, like, huge, right. Swayze was the first of the Marvel body. Like you would believe. He's still a gym. And in fact, he had been a gymnast. Patrick Swayze and a football player.

Yeah.

Great combo.

He was a metropolitan man.

Wow.

Yeah. Did you ever watch that show on Netflix? Like your favorite movies, how they were made or something.

No.

And they did dirty Dancing.

Such a good movie.

And, you know, they legendarily hated each other, which. Yes, yes. And they get into that.

Whoa.

And they talk about that big scene where he had to run and jump off the stage and be like a swan in the air. And he had the terrible leg injury from football, like multiple breaks and surgery. CTE. Okay, what would that be? Lte or something. Leg trauma. And he just jumped over and over. And they have all the footage. And most of the times he landed, he just collapsed. Yeah. And he just kept going because he's a gymnast, and gymnasts don't go. They don't quit, go right through the pain. There was a super interesting. I think I bring this up before, but I don't know, I urge people to read it. I know why. Because Ricky, our good friend Ricky Glassman, he's had a bunch of different weird injuries and it sidelines him from exercising a lot. And then he gets depressed and he was sharing all this with me. I was like, you really should check out Lane Norton's got a lot of work on pain. And he just had a recent post. If you go to at biolane and it has immense data on pain and it's also counterintuitive, you just really wouldn't believe how mental it is.

It's a really mental thing. If you look at the broad data, if you compare people with tissue damage and you compare people with pain, there's not much correlation. So there's a lot of people with pain and no tissue damage and there's a lot of people with tissue damage with no pain. So it's just a very fascinating field. I think there's a couple of experts in it we should have one on.

Yeah, I'd like to. Because can't a lot of that have to do with just like pain receptors and how maybe that differs a lot between people?

Yes. But here's what I tried to explain to Lincoln, I think is a way people could relate to how subjective pain is. If you're on the playground playing and you want to go tackle somebody, you've decided, like, I want to bring them down and you run at them and you tackle them and it doesn't hurt you. Now, if you're standing still and you're not expecting it and someone tackles you, the exact same amount of trauma and impact and concussion, all that stuff, it kills or you fall down the steps, that kills. But when they're on the bar and they want to be spinning and they fall, they jump right back up because they want to do it. It's like the mindset is like, yes, I'm going to ignore this thing in pursuit of this other thing versus, I expect, comfort. And now I have this trauma. These are like pretty much relatively the same level of trauma.

That's interesting.

But because you chose to do one and didn't choose to do another, the response is light years different. It's very visible. When you have kids, you witness it all the time. Yeah, like, they'll be running and you're not looking at them and they hit the deck, but they wanted to be running. They just get up and they versus. They're sitting there and their sister kicks them in the same part of the knee that they just fell on it. And all of a sudden it's like.

Right, well, that feels more like anger. When anger is involved, there's an emotional pain added, which then causes that to be very heightened.

But I also think it's almost the buddhist thing where it's like if there's an expectation of calm and pleasure that is interrupted with pain versus there's an expectation of pain, there is no pain.

Right. Yeah, that's true. I wonder if also something physiological happens. Like if you're on, I'm thinking about the monkey bar, like, if you're learning how to do gymnastics or something, you know you're going to fall. So I wonder if your body is also. Your muscles are working in a specific way. I mean, your brain controls all of that, right.

Your brain is entirely deciding what signals it's going to send.

Yeah.

The example I know very intimately that you won't like is that the times in my life where I was afraid someone was going to beat me up and I focused on the fact that I'm going to get hurt by this person. And when they were hurting me, it hurt. Versus when I got in fights where it's like I just wanted to hurt that person. I was not thinking about anything about me. I was singularly focused on, I'm going to hurt that person.

Right.

In those fights, I got hit just as much. You don't feel them at all. When you choose to be in a fight and you want to go after that person and hurt them, you don't feel any of the shit that happens to you. If you get your nose broken, like 4 hours later, it'll hurt. But your brain's in a complete. It's almost like your brain's like it's in a zone that. That feels like decommissions. The other side.

Yeah.

Whereas, like, oh, no, they're coming. They're going to hurt me. You're already focused on the part that's going to be painful.

Yeah.

I mean, it's like how moms lift cars up off of people when you're in certain modes that you can handle things and do things that you can't normally do.

Right.

Yeah, it's interesting.

I think it's way more subjective than we want to. Yeah, but the shit that's driving people nuts. But it's just the mass data. You can't ignore it. Stretching does not reduce injury. Form doesn't reduce injury. All these things that are like tenets of exercise.

Form not. Because if you're holding your back in a certain way.

Yeah, you should read it. So they've done these enormous studies on everyone's forms and you're just as likely to hurt yourself with great form as you are with bad form, which no one wants to hear. That's the thing that's pissing people the most off in the comments. But it's just straight data. It's not anyone's opinion. It's like, here are the 10,000 people that were studied. Here are the results of it. The only thing that can reduce injury, quantifiably that the data proves, is warm ups help. So if you start doing a light version of the exercise you're going to do to get your heart rate up and get your blood flowing and get your body moving, but stretching, it won't reduce your risk. It's really fun to see something so inflammatory. It's kind of like the Malcolm Gladwell stuff.

So these are all studies? They're like recent studies, yeah. There's data that made people say it to begin with. So why is that data getting thrown?

I don't know if there was data. I think there's a lot of intuitive things that make sense to people. Like, of course, good form. Anatomically, your body moves this way. Of course, if you have your back rolled over during squats, that's going to put more pressure on your neck. I think a lot of stuff's intuitive. I don't know that they studied it, but regardless, these are all metadata, so it's like all of the studies that have been done on this topic, what do we see emerge from all of them? He is mostly dealing with meta analysis of data.

Okay, amazing. How old is Ben Mendelsohn, who is on her show? He's 54. We were saying he's also worked since he was a kid and he's my sweet brother's age. She feels like she doesn't know anything when she's around him.

54.

When I hear 54, I go, that's old. And then I go, oh, my brother's 54 now. And then it seems young.

Yeah, of course. I know.

I bet 49 has been impacted for you by knowing me.

For sure. I'm 49 when you are 50. I'm saying I already have that with Eric. Like, he's in his 50s.

Yes. Well, in my meeting yesterday, I wore my black Chuck Taylor converse and my Levi's cuffed in a black shirt. The outfit I'm wearing currently, but black. The same outfit? Yeah, I put it on in the afternoon yesterday, and I'm still wearing it today.

Yeah.

And I was like, yeah, this is the exact outfit I wore in 8th grade every day. And then I'm like, still. I'm trying to be a little boy, I think. And does it look preposterous yet?

Well, you know my theory about fashion a little bit. Oh, ding, ding, ding.

Fashion. Yeah.

I think the moment we have our first burst of confidence, you get stuck there.

Yeah.

You get stuck, and then you're, like, recreating that fashion style for the rest of your life.

So what is yours?

So I'm drawn to a lot of feminine touches, like ruffles or a pretty sleeve or, like, pink and things like that. I don't always go for it because I counteract it because I don't want to walk around like a little girl.

Right.

But I'm always drawn to that, and I always like it, and I think that's why.

So what age for you was everything working? So it's not the moment you were feeling yourself, but maybe I bet you were feeling.

I know.

I look at that little gal, and she definitely seems pretty damn confident, and she looked cute.

Like, when I look at pictures, my mom dressed me cute.

She had a little bit of RV doll.

She had a little doll, and it was cute. And then it took a turn because then she just started buying me stuff from goodies.

Right.

Which wasn't as cute. Okay, so I'm not trying to recreate that moment ever.

Clearly, your mother was doing what all parents do, which is they were giving their child what they wanted. So my reverse engineering hunch is that your mother was in Savannah with these indian parents, and they probably weren't dressing her like a baby.

My mom, my grandma made all their clothes. But she was good.

I'm sure she was.

She was good. She made me some dresses that were really cute.

She ran an atelier in her kind.

Of, when we would go to the store, the fabric store, and we'd pick out the fabric for my dress.

But I think it's safe to assume she did for you what she wanted for herself.

Yeah, I think most parents do that, but she didn't do that with goodies. I think they're just frugal.

Yeah, maybe they were like, oh, these clothes, last six months. This little bitch is growing like a weed.

Even though I wasn't, I stayed small.

Yeah, you probably fit in that same outfit that's in that photo right there, that photorealistic painting.

Yeah.

So for you, you're recreating the outfit.

When you were young, which is interesting because really, I'm recreating Beckham. And in doing so, I realize I'm really recreating myself from 7th grade.

Yeah.

I remember getting my first pair of Chuck Taylor's. It's like what skaters wore.

Sure.

Before vans was an option. And this is 85. Like, the skate boys started wearing these, and my brother was like, my brother got them, so I got them. And then you had to roll up your guest jeans so you could see your all stars. These were the first pair of shoes I had had a pair of Nike or two before that. These were the first pair of shoes that I was like, yeah. Found my personality. Like, these are in keeping with who I am because they weren't popular in the all.

They were a skater shoe. Even when you were in high school. Very skater.

I should grow my bangs out again.

Oh, my God, kids, redlocks.

Oh, man. Favorite hairdo ever.

Yeah, probably not. Probably not.

I might do it.

Okay. Don't want to have a show anymore.

Great.

They didn't let me have a show because I nodded my hair.

Well, knowing that right now, it would be a statement doing it now, and it would be a statement that's like, why is it worth. Why is it worth it?

People would make it a statement.

What is a statement? It would be a statement.

No, statement is you decide to make a statement. So I wouldn't be making a statement like, I reject the notion of cultural appropriation, and I'm going to prove it and stand up for this, for my right to do this. That's how it would be. It'd be like, oh, I'm going to get my favorite hairstyle I ever had again. Now, other people would glean from that. That's what I was doing, but I actually wouldn't be making a statement.

But if anyone is flying a Confederate flag right now, they might be doing it. Because they love fishing, but they're deciding that that is more important to them than what it flags to flags to a bunch of people, and it bums a bunch of people out. They're deciding their love of fishing is more important, and that is a statement.

But do you think those are equivalent hairdos and the Confederate flag?

I think having dreadlocks right now in 2024, as a white person is a no go. It's been made clear. So to make that choice is making a very specific choice. It's not like having two braids down your hair that kind of looks a little indigenous. Dreadlocks is so specific. It's not like, oh, it looks a little kind of appropriationy, but I'm not sure. But it's not, like middle groundy.

But I guess what you're saying is there is consensus that the Confederate flag, which was the actual symbol to revolt against the north over slavery, so it's explicitly in support of slavery. The flag. There's no interpretation.

Well, for some people, they interpret it differently.

Well, that's just because maybe they don't know.

No, I mean, I know people in the south who want to fly it. They know the stuff and they want to fly it because there's certain culture.

But there are kids that have been raised in a house that said that was a flag that represented states rights, and then their parents didn't go on to say, what was this state right that everyone was fighting over. So there are kids that currently think that was a state's rights revolution. There are. But hairdo, I don't think is equivalent to the Confederate flag, personally, and I don't think black people think it's equivalent. I think some left white people think it is, but I don't really think there's black people. I think the Confederate flag and rage against the machine's lead singer, those are equivalent.

It comes from black people. Let me touch your hair. What's happening with your hair? It was a thing. It's not separate from race. Like, it is connected, and it's connected to the history.

But you're saying that some ethnicities have a singular right over a hairstyle and others can't have that hairstyle.

I'm not saying can't, but I'm saying if you choose to in the place we're at, you're making a decision, despite a lot of people thinking that.

To say a whole group of people can't have a hairstyle is an interesting proposition.

Well, a whole group of people can't say a word. And I 100% believe that.

Well, that word is a racial pejorative. It is hateful. But wearing your hair in a certain way is not hateful.

The hair style is connected to a.

Racist history, to an identity of black people.

Yes.

Yeah. 100%. It is most identified with, specifically Bob Marley.

In Rosta culture, it was an identifying factor that was used as a negative. This group of people that's below us has hair like this and does this, and that hair is weird, and I don't understand it. Can I touch it?

Hold on. Someone who's just making their hair dreadlocked is not saying black people have weird hair, and I want to touch it.

In the history, though, that's part of it. Huge part of the.

That hairstyle certainly originated in the black community, period. Agree. Absolutely agree 100% that they originated that hairstyle. But the notion that they originated a hairstyle and that no one going forward in history can have that same hairstyle is a pretty extreme and interesting proposition that there are hairstyles people can and cannot have. There's no hate behind all the examples you're giving, like the n word and the Confederate flag, those are all symbols of hate. Having a hairstyle that someone else invented is not a symbol of hate in any way. I don't think you could possibly make that argument.

But it's still taking on a.

It's taking some of their culture. They invented.

That they invented despite white people.

Right.

Like, they did it in defiance. And then now you're deciding because it's convenient. Not you. You as white people. It's convenient for. No, now I like it. I'm going to have it.

Well, no, because that assumed the person didn't like it.

What you just said, you're making it, and I think you have to make it.

But I don't think culturally people didn't like dreadlocks. I don't think white supremacists had an opinion about dreadlocks. Of course they had an opinion about black people.

Yes. And that's connected, so that's inferior.

The question is, if the black community invents something, does all of their inventions have to stay within their community, or can they be used by other communities? That's the question. That's the real question. They invented hip hop, they invented jazz, they invented white people, invented the piano and the cello and the violin. And of course, everyone can use the violin and the piano.

People who weren't marginalized.

Right.

But different things.

But because the marginalized group invented something, the premise is no one else should use that invention.

We were talking very specifically about you bringing dreadlocks.

Yes. So dreadlocks is exactly this. So they invented a hairstyle. And so because they invented it, white people should never have it.

That's what a statement, that people who felt superior.

But that's not anyone right now.

But that's where history matters. It matters to all of this for.

All generations going forward. So because one person hated dreadlocks?

One person.

Because 100% of white people hated dreadlocks in 1840, in 2024, when, I don't even know, 70% of white people don't hate black people at all. White people shouldn't use a hairstyle they invented.

Maybe when there's absolutely zero systemic racism, everyone can have all the same stuff, but right now, we're not there.

Okay, so black people should have singular ownership over the culture they create.

I think it's case by case, it depends.

Well, hip hop is fine, right? We were fine with white people doing hip hop.

Yeah.

And that was a villainized ish, to be honest.

I'm like, yes, and I think it depends.

I don't think you can tell any kid on planet Earth if they want to rap, they can't rap because someone else can't. We're talking about it.

Yeah.

And I'm saying. I'm not saying can't. You're making it so black and white.

Well, it's very black and white. If you say white people can't have dread.

I'm not saying can't. You can do whatever you want. My point is, whatever you do, if you decide to do that, there'll be consequences. It's saying something, and what you can say is that it's not, but that's living not in reality, and that not in this current time, in this culture. And I don't care what anyone does, but if I see a white person with dreadlocks, I might think, oh, they love that hairstyle. And I also think they shouldn't know. They've decided to prioritize them liking that hairstyle over a history that is not about them.

Right. So in your scenario, I think you're saying that the white person has the dreadlocks and that potentially a black person would see that and feel offended or angry and that they prioritize their love for the hairstyle over having made the black person feel angry or offended or just like. Because if it's offending a white college student, tough shit.

Oh, yeah. I don't care about that.

And so I guess where you and I, I think we're getting down to where we differ. I don't really think black people would see a white guy with.

So we don't know. I'm telling you what I think I know, but.

Okay, I'm not allowed to think that.

But we don't know. What's the point?

Well, I could start calling some black people and say, like, if you saw a guy with dreadlocks, would you be upset? I could do that. But it's my opinion with the black friends I have that I can't imagine they'd get upset or offended or think they were under attack if they saw someone. A white guy with dreadlocks.

Yeah. I don't know.

I don't think they're that fragile.

I don't think it's fragile to be.

Offended by a hairdo.

Yeah. When it's connected to a whole bunch of other stuff that's extrapolating it in such a specific way to just call it a hairdo. Hair in the black community, it's not like indian hair. It's very specific, and it has been used against them a lot, and there's not products for them, and it's a lot there. It's not just as simple as, like, I like the way this looks. So I think people can do it if they want to do it, but I'm going to see it and think they made a choice. And I'm not going to say, like, you're bad because of it, but I'm going to notice it. Just like, if you wear a headdress, I'm going to notice it, too. I'm going to be like, it's a.

Zone that the far left went too far. And I think it's one of the silly ones. I think there's really legitimate ones, and I think that's a silly one. It.

Okay, so who said, don't be humble, you're not that great? It was a female prime minister of Israel. Golda mayor. M E I R. M E I R. She was the fourth prime minister of Israel from 69 to 74.

Do you like that quote?

I love it. Yeah, it's a good one. It's a very good one. How old was Dior when he died? He was quite young.

Oh, this is a ding ding ding. Last night, Lincoln was telling me that they're doing a section on famous women in history, and she got assigned some Olympian.

Ooh.

And then a classmate got Chanel. Oh. And she swapped. She horse traded.

Really? Oh, that is a ding ding ding.

So now she has Coco Chanel.

Oh, cool.

Do you know her name was not even Coco Chanel. And she, like, she had already done some research on it.

Okay. He was 52. Dior when he died, especially.

We just talked about the fact that I'm 50 ish.

Yeah.

And the actor, he would have been dead two years ago.

Ben Mendelsohn.

She can borrow my purse for a presentation. Yeah, if she wants.

Okay. Talk about making a statement and being aware. Socially aware. So I would be nervous about her showing up with a Chanel oh bag. Yeah. I think she's already got to really mind her p's and q's about being pretty privileged.

I see.

Yeah. So I would probably advise her against.

Okay.

Oh, this is a funny conundrum. Okay, so we're on the way to school today, and her birthday is approaching. And I said, what do you want for your birthday, love? Is there anything you have been wanting? And she said, just, I guess some Taylor Swift stuff. She goes, but I don't really want anything. I'd rather maybe have an experience. If you want to gift me an experience, great. Which already I love. It took me 42 years to learn that experiences are better than objects. I'm still not even there. I still look at cars.

I want items.

Yeah, but I'm aspiring to just ask for an experience for birthday at that age. I like that.

Me too.

And then just last night, we were laying in bed, and she said, do you know that Taylor's concert is going all the way through 2024 in Europe? And I was like, oh, I wonder how much it'll make. So then we looked it up, and then. So it's projected to make a billion. So, coupled with last year, so that tour will have made $2 billion, which is incredible. Conceivable. This woman could amass, like, $30 billion. It'll be interesting to see if they hate that billionaire. But that's a side note.

Yeah, we've talked about that a little bit on synced.

Oh, did you? What's the tipping point? Yeah, but anyways, so she says this on the ride to school, and then, of course, I was know, could I find four days off, get tickets in another country, and gift her that experience for her birthday?

Well, Anna and I literally just talked about this last night. We were looking at your schedule. We were trying to figure out, because we really want to go to London to see.

Ah, London.

But it doesn't match up with your dates. But if you guys are going to go, then that would be great for.

I'm like, so now the big quandary starts. Mind you, I don't say any of this out loud.

Thank God.

Yeah, but I'm like, is that too much? Should a kid get a trip to Europe to see Taylor Swift? Like, what impact does that have on her? Shouldn't there still be things she wants to do? I don't want to give her everything before she's an adult. Fucking. God forbid she tells someone at school she flew to fucking Cologne, Germany, to see Taylor Swift. I would hate that kid.

Every kid would hate that. You'd have to make it, like, if we went to London, then it's like we're there for work. We could go for work and then make it all worth it. That would be not a bad idea. But also, then it's like a family trip, and then that happens to be a day.

Yes, but if there's a way to.

Yeah, if you're going just.

Well, I was being realistic about my schedule and her school schedule, which is like, the ODs of me taking a week off when I already have a bunch of shit already on the calendar. It seems very unlikely. So it seems more like we would fly directly to a place, be there for two days, see Taylor. So, by the way, it'd just be me and her mom already went with her in LA, so I would want to go and not make a big thing out of it. But again, I sincerely don't know what the right call is. I'm leaning towards not, which is weird, because I could do it, and it'd be really, really fun for both of us. And then what if we died in a meteor shower in two years, and I was worrying about what impact this would have on her as an adult.

But then you could have died because of that.

Could die en route. And people would be like, those people that went down in the submarine. They deserved it. Who would spend that kind of money to go see Taylor Swift and.

Think, I don't know. I don't know what the answer is.

I don't either.

Yeah. It's more like she's going on a trip with her dad.

That's what. Think, like, I don't need to see Taylor. I want to share that with my daughter.

Right.

PBD.

I think we should just go to London.

Thank God she doesn't listen to the podcast.

Thank God.

Yeah.

Anyhow, and that would be your pick.

You've gone to London so much. Wouldn't you want to go to a different city to see there's all.

She's also going to be in Milan while you guys are gone, so we've talked about that as well.

Milan Rouge?

Yes. I don't fucking. I love London. I love it so much. And then maybe pop over to Paris. Would you live there?

Do you think you could live there?

No, I can only live here.

Okay. Because of the sunshine.

I don't know why. I mean, it's currently gloomy. It is.

We're expecting rain here at 04:00.

I love other places. I love visiting, but I like living here.

Yeah, it's a good place.

Yeah, it is. It was funny, though, because we landed on Saturday. I walked to the bookstore, which I think I talked about, and this unwell person was like, hold on a second.

I wonder if that's how it evolved. It went homeless, unhoused, and then just unwell.

I don't know if he was unhoused.

Okay.

At all.

He was unwell.

It was hard to tell. He was definitely unwell because he was screaming at me and I was walking down the street and he was just, like, in my face screaming at me on Vermont. And it was really uncomfortable.

What was he screaming?

I had headphones in and I was trying to just look down and not make eye contact.

Yes.

So I don't know, but God knows.

What if you had shit in your bathing suit?

That's an Easter egg. That's an Easter egg.

Yeah.

Anyway, we just have.

You interact with a lot of unwell folks.

Yeah.

It's just funny because he had just come from India, right, where there's so much poverty and there's a lot going on, but no one's on chaos. Well, there are.

I'm saying we didn't see, but no.

One was doing that to us there.

That's a little bit of the point I was making. Just like, I don't know. I don't have pity and I don't.

Have no, I know.

And I don't know that we have it better.

I agree. I totally agree.

Because that's one metric you look at. It's like, yeah, there weren't a bunch of completely drugged out zombies crawling all over the sidewalk and screaming and fighting bird scooters there. We didn't see that.

Well, remember I brought this up to Bill and you where when we were in the revitalized slum, I was shocked at how there was no drug use.

Yeah. There was no apparent drug use.

Yeah.

And if that were here, we did.

Ask him, though, do you remember he.

Said, drugs aren't really an issue.

Yeah. And the penalties for drugs are insanely.

But he was like, no one has that issue like the United States.

Right. Also the money, like, the world market, you can only get cocaine so cheaply over to India.

But it was just so interesting because if that were here and people are in that environment.

Yeah. But they did say they had an alcohol problem. But again, I saw when I was in St. Petersburg in 1999, which I guess at that point is only eight years, nine years after the fall of the USSR, we were driving in the morning to go see Catherine's palace, and there were hundreds and hundreds of men on the sidewalk at like 09:00 a.m. Drinking out of vodka bottles. And they were. Ballitz. It was like our drug issue.

Oh, wow.

But it was just with alcohol, and there's just guys laying, leaning on every corner of everything, just pounding vodka. So obviously India's drinking problem isn't. Isn't what? St. Petersburg was in 1999.

Interesting. Yeah, it's just all specific to the place. Anyhow, that man yelled at me.

Oh, sorry.

And that's all.

All right. Love you.

Love you. Close.