Daddy.

Gang, picture this. It's a typical day for you. You just got off of work. You go pick up a pizza. You head over to your boyfriend's house for dinner, and you guys are just hanging out. And you eventually start having one of those emotionally deep conversations that goes on for hours about just the status of your relationship. You've been dating for seven months. You're just trying to figure out, are we doing this? Are we not? Eventually, you're exhausted. You decide you're staying together. You're happy. You're in love. You go to bed. And then imagine at 03:00 a.m. You're woken up and blinded by a bright white light. Laser beams across your body, and you hear a taser go off. Somewhere in the room. A voice you don't recognize tells your boyfriend to lay on his stomach and commands you to tie him up. You just woke up. You're confused. You're disoriented. You have absolutely no idea what the fuck is going on. Who are these people? Or what are they here and what do they want? And the next thing you know, you have blacked out. Swim goggles put over your eyes so you can't see anything.

And headphones are placed over your ears. You hear wind chimes and a strange recorded voice telling you someone is going to take your vitals and give you a sedative to calm you down. Nothing is making sense or adding up. You're struggling to process what is happening. You're taken out of the room with the man, and suddenly this guy says to you, this wasn't meant for you, but loads you into the truck of his car. And you are taken away. And you fall asleep from the sedative and you wake up in a cabin. Daddy Yang. This is a true story. This is Denise Huskins story. And this is the story of a woman who was kidnapped, raped, survived, and then came out to realize that the world thought she had completely put on an entire hoax, that she made all of this up and did not believe her story. I'm so excited to sit down with her today and talk to her about her experience. If any of these subject matters could be sensitive to you or triggers, please. Maybe this is one you tune out. And I'll see you next week. For those that of you are gonna stick around and listen, here is Denise Huskins.

What is up, daddy? Gang, it is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with call her daddy. Denise Huskins, welcome to call her daddy.

Thank you.

How are you doing today?

Every day is a mixed bag. Of emotions. So, like, I'm good. You know, like, all in all, I'm good. But then there's just still just. My body is just, like, processing a lot of stress and, yeah, stuff from the past. So, like, it's. It's really nice to be able to speak and share about what happened and how we've gotten through it, but it also just brings up a lot of deep seated pain. So, yeah.

Yeah. For context to everyone watching or listening, the story of your kidnapping was told in a Netflix documentary recently, American Nightmare, which was at the top of the charts. It had, like, 21 million plus streams. As interesting as it is for people to consume that type of content, it's your life, and everyone was watching it. Like, how did you feel when you saw the world watching and experiencing your story for the first time?

It was certainly surreal. But the Netflix experience, you know, that, like, it drops in 190 countries and there's, you know, millions and millions of all of a sudden. So now it's just like. I mean, it's overwhelming and incredibly positive. Yeah. People from all over the world sharing their stories with me. I mean, calling me brave and a badass and all these wonderful compliments, but at the same time, I'm like, you know, at home on the couch, curled in a bulb, my stomach sick. Like, a lot of that fear, that terror, you know? I mean, I spent two days in captivity believing I would be killed in complete shock that I'm released. So, yeah, it just. The exposure, the public exposure is so intertwined with the thought of being killed that it's really hard for my body to differentiate the two. It's like, okay, I know I'm safe. I know that. And most of the attention is very positive right now, so it's very different, but it's still. My body doesn't know the difference.

I do kind of want to go back to the beginning because I'm sure people are sitting here and we're talking about a Netflix doc, and there's this thing that happened. You're a very normal person. Tell me about life before all this. Like, who you were, your job, your upbringing. Just, like, kind of paint the picture.

Yeah. So in 2015, I was 29 years old. I grew up in southern California. I went to undergrad with the goal to become a physical therapist, and I went to get my doctorate in Brooklyn, New York, which was really cool experience to be able to get something completely different than Southern California. The energy, the culture, the people. I had a lot of self learning, self discovery at that time. And, yeah, I started working for a couple years, and I went to Vallejo, California, for a physical therapy residency to specialize in working with people who've had severe neurological disorders or traumatic brain injury, spinal cord injury, stroke. I mean, these people and their families were faced with an unexpected, tragic event and are literally, like, building, trying to rebuild their lives. And so that's what I was doing at the time. I was working with people who were going through their own trauma and trying to help them and guide them. And that's where I met Aaron, who's now my husband.

Seven months before your kidnapping, you guys meet. Can you describe how you met and go a little bit more into, like, the dynamic of that relationship?

Yeah. So we met at work. He's a physical therapist who's working at the hospital. We would see each other out in, like, group settings, you know, with the other pts, and we always just gravitated towards one another. And we were dating for about seven months or so, and it was kind of an on again, off again thing. Cause he had just been going through a really devastating breakup of his own with someone he was engaged to who he thought he was going to spend his life with, and she had cheated on him. And so that, like, his whole view of his life and his future just crumbled. So I could really empathize with what he was going through. But at the same time, after a few months of inconsistency, it was kind of. We were at, like, a crossroads in a relationship. So it's like I said, he was going through a difficult time, and it was. If you look at it from the outside, it's like, oh, don't go there. It's just too messy. But at the same time, you don't come across that that often.

So the night that you were taken, you and Aaron had gotten into kind of like an argument, disagreement, fight. What was it about? Can you just kind of, like, give context?

Well, yeah. So, about a month before that, I had found text messages on his phone of him communicating with his ex. And at that point, it was disrespectful to me, and he wasn't being honest to me about it. And so I kind of put my foot down, was like, okay, enough's enough. Like, either you go, if that's what you want to do, go back to her, do that, or let me go. Like, just give me enough respect to let me go. And he had talked about going to therapy but hadn't done it yet. So at that point, he really. I think it was like, more of putting a mirror up to his face and going, okay, I like, what am I doing? Why am doing this? This isn't helping me. It's not healthy for me. So he started going to therapy, and he. And he started trying to show me that it was me that he wanted to be with and that he wanted to try to make this work. So it was like a lot of back and forth. And I wasn't going to go over to his house that night. I had told him, if you want to start over, we can start fresh.

You can take me out on a date. I don't want to go back there. They had lived together in that house, too, so it was like, you know, I don't. I don't. I just, yeah, I need you to, like, court me again. But then, you know, he was like, I think it'll be a serious conversation. We should, you know, not be in public, like, talking about it. And so we was like, okay, fine, I'll come over. I brought a pizza. And nothing about that night was heated or confrontational at all. It was more emotional. You know, it was like, okay, am I willing to forgive him? Can I believe that he wants to move forward? Can he show me that? And so, yeah, we talked for hours, and we got to that place. You know, it was emotional, but it was sweet. And we decided, okay, yeah, we're going to try this out and give it a shot.

And when you talk about that night, what does it make you feel? Because you're talking about, like, oh, my gosh, I went through this with this guy, and we finally kind of had a really good conversation. I feel like everyone listening can relate. When it's finally like, okay, we need to get to the bottom of it. Are we doing this thing or are we not? If not, no hard feelings. We're going to go on with my life. But, like, let's hash it out. Let's figure it out. And you did. When you look back, knowing later that night when you went to bed, your whole life was going to change. Like, how do you feel about that night when you even talk about it?

You know, I've been asked that. It's like, would you take it all back? Like, if you. Would you not go over there? Would you not forgive him? Would you? If that meant that none of this would have happened. But in the end, now I'm gonna get emotional. It would mean that I wouldn't have him in my life. And he is my person, you know? Like, I knew that as soon as I met him. And there's just, like, I didn't really believe. And I was giving up on the idea of, like, your partner, your other half, like, a soulmate, you know? I was 29, and I'm like, that shit's not real. Like, it's just. And I was kind of getting, like, solidified and that, like, okay, I'm just gonna be independent and focus on my career and, like, I'm good. Like, I don't need that shit. And, yeah, meeting him, I was like, oh, wait, maybe there's not all douchebags out there. Maybe, like, some genuine, like, you know, focused. And he had, like, he had a good family, and he was really sweet about his family, and he shared similar values and interests, and, like, we just would hang out for hours and talk.

And still, like, ten years later, we just hang out and talk to each other. It's like, what do you talk about? I think that was something the police were like, what do you. Like, what do you mean? No, you were fighting. And he's like, no, we weren't fighting. We were just. We were talking. We were listening to each other. We were hearing each other. And so, I mean, I think it's sad that some people may not understand that, but I feel lucky that I've gotten that from him.

When you went to bed that night, were you like, okay, we're gonna try to make this work. Like, were you in good spirits going to bed, would you say?

Oh, yeah. I mean, we were, like, just wrapped up in each other and, yeah, going to bed, just thinking, okay. Like, you know, I mean, we were emotionally exhausted, but, like, okay, like, this is. This feels like a fresh start. Like, that ghost of the relationship of the past is gone. It's lifted, it's free, okay. Like, we can start to move forward.

Can you take me to the moment where you knew, wait, someone's in my house, and I'm in danger, and, like, were you just, like, dead asleep, woken up in this moment?

Yeah, I was dead asleep. I thought I was dreaming so I could hear a strange man's voice, and it's like my subconscious was conflicted. It was almost like it was saying, don't wake up. Don't wake up. But then, I mean, it just. It was relentless. And I just suddenly, like, my eyes shot open and my back was turned to where the voice was coming from, but I saw a flashing white light on the wall and, like, three red laser pointers crossing the walls, and then they disappear over our bodies. And so instantly, I knew, like, holy fuck, there's people here. We're surrounded. They have guns. Like, this is real. I mean, I. The fear. I mean, I don't even know if I could ever, like, accurately describe how horrifying that is and instantly knowing, like, there's people here. They've got things set up. Like, they're not just coming in to steal a laptop or something. Like, this is, like, what is this? Why? Yeah.

Did you, like, say anything to Erin, or is this just too crazy that you both were just, like, stunned, shocked, didn't say anything?

I think initially, we're both just in shock, like, frozen, trying to register. You're pulled from a deep sleep to then that is just, like, your body has to have time to adjust. And then when you do adjust and you're realizing what it is, especially with guns facing you, what do you do? Scream. Like, you know, you don't know what these people are here for, what they're capable of. So we just listened, and then the voice just kept talking also, so it wasn't really like we had time to do anything else. He just then started saying, like, he was having me tie Aaron up, and he was kind of put zip ties at the end of the bed, and he backed away, and then he was telling me how to tie up Aaron's hands and feet together. And, yeah. The whole time, I'm just, like, shaking, going, like, thinking, like, am I gonna do this right? Am I? You know, I'm just, like, in my head about it. Like, I hope I don't fuck this up. I hope that they don't, you know? And as I'm, like, freaking out internally, the voice keeps talking, saying, like, you're doing a good job.

You are staying calm. It was very, like, distinct, almost robotic. It was just so. There were so many little pieces of it that was just so hard to even process because it isn't what you would normally think, right? Like, you watch true crime or horror movies, and you see this crazy, passionate violence, and realizing that criminals can be patient and in control and planned out was even more horrifying to process.

Right, because I get what you're saying. Like, you'd probably anticipate if someone was gonna play it out in their mind. It would be, like, screaming and yelling and, like, just yelling at you to do things. And the fact that you're, like, there was, like, this calmness about this situation, and yet it's so hectic. But, like, how is this person showing patience in the wake of, like, you don't know at this point what they're gonna do? When did you realize, like, oh, they're here to take me, because I'm assuming, like, when you're tying Aaron up, did you think, like, they're gonna take him?

No. I thought, well, how? What did I not think? You know, I thought. I mean, he woke us up saying, this is a robbery. We are not here to hurt you, and repeated that over and over. Stay calm. This is a robbery. And the fact that there wasn't immediate violence, I'm thinking and hoping and also just to keep myself calm, like, okay, maybe this is just a robbery. So they're planning on clearing out Aaron's belongings, and they're gonna have us tied up, and they put headphones over our ears and played pre recorded messages of instructions and forced us to take sedatives. And even in that moment, like, I hear the other people downstairs, I hear drawers opening, like there's a drill going. So even in that moment, I'm thinking, okay, maybe this is just a robbery. And they're just making sure. They're gonna tie us up and blindfold us and drug us so we pass out, and they have enough time to get a clean getaway, and we'll come to the next morning, and then it's all over. But, okay, fine, whatever. Like, we'll be safe. But, you know, you're still, like, in the back of your mind going, like, you know, are they gonna torture us?

Are they gonna rape me? Are they gonna rape him and me? Are they gonna make us watch? Like, you know, there's those stories of serial rapists doing, you know, so it's just. But you have to, like, also try to figure out how to stay calm and present, because if, at least for myself, in those moments, I'm thinking if I freak out, like, and I lose my sanity, then that's gonna make it riskier for me because I'm not clear headed, and I'm not, you know, like, I might not pick up on some information that could get me out of this alive. So, like, I just need to. I just. Yeah, I just need to calm myself down, stay focused, pay attention, listen and see. Yeah. Um. But the night progressively got worse, and they separated me from Aaron and then brought me downstairs, and. And then he came in because there was just one man who was speaking, and it's the same man who held me captive. Um, yeah, he came in, and he said, this wasn't meant for you. This was meant for. And he named Aaron's ex by her first and last name. And he said, we need to figure out what we're gonna do.

And, I mean, I'm just sitting there going, like, how? Like, how is this meant for anybody? And what the fuck is this? And then he comes back in, and he says, you know, we're gonna take you for 48 hours. We're gonna put you in the trunk of Aaron's car, put you into a trunk of another car, and Aaron's gonna have to complete some tasks for you to be released.

Were you just silent in that moment? Like, did you say anything, or you were just in shock?

Just in shock? I think I said, okay. At some point. At that point, the sedatives had already been kicking in. I didn't know what was happening upstairs with Aaron, but I was hopeful that nothing was happening because I didn't hear any struggle or yelling or anything like that. And, I mean, that's really how they could be successful, right? Like, you use the person against the other. You know, if you mess up, if you do anything, we are going to hurt your partner, the person you love. So I think things would perhaps be a little different if it was just me. You know? Like, if it's like, I can risk getting hurt if it's my life I'm risking, but if I might be hurting someone else, then that changes everything.

Like, it's so interesting again, because, like, we never know what we're gonna do in these situations until you're in it. And when you talk about it, Denise, of, like, your body just, like, knows what to do in these situations. Like, you having the wherewithal to be, like, stay so calm. I cannot lose my mind. Even though I want to scream, I want to cry. I want to do all the things. I want to shut down. I have to really be focused and listen. I remember you talking about the car ride, and even though you were on these sedatives, you were kind of, like, trying as hard as you could to stay awake, right. And just track, like, okay, we turned out of the neighborhood. Like, where are we going? How long do you think that lasted in the trunk when they put you in there, that you were trying to just get a gage of where you were going?

Well, in the first car, it was hard to breathe. So as much as I was trying to pay attention, I was really just trying to not panic because I felt like I was starting to lose it, and I knew it wasn't going to help me to hyperventilate. And so that's where I was just like, okay, just focus on this. And at one point, he stopped and, like, grabbed my arm, and he's like, do not scream. Do not yell. And I hadn't said anything, so it was just, like, confusing and threatening. And then he stops somewhere and puts me in the trunk of another car. And it's smaller, but I could breathe easier and starts going. And I could tell we get on a freeway, and, yeah, I'm thinking, like, can I kick out a tail light? Some other shit you see in movies. But it's like, I don't know what kind of car I'm in. I don't know where the taillight is. Like, I'm crammed. Like, you know what? Like, what do I do? And I think as I was just kind of, like, cycling through all of that, eventually I passed out from the sedatives.

And at this point, when you wake up and you're being brought to this cabin, like, do you have any concept if you're even still in California? Like, do you know where you are?

No, I don't know where I am. But I knew that it had been several hours. The whole side of my body was going numb. And when he opened the trunk, the way that the light was, I could tell it was probably later morning, and he was struggling to get me out of the trunk. And I knew we weren't, like, under a garage, like, because I could see the light. But then he, like, drops me and then fumbles with me and drags me into darkness. And I'm thinking, like, where the fuck can we be where no one is seeing this right now? And I don't hear cars. I don't hear, you know? So I'm thinking we're probably in either the woods or, like, a big, more, like, vacant lot of land or something. So I knew we were remote. I could tell it was a single unit home. Cause there was no noises or plumbing or whatever from anyone else.

So, first of all, I can't even imagine how terrifying when you realize you're basically in the middle of nowhere, potentially. And that thought, realizing, like, wait, no one can see me. No one can hear me in that moment. Like, what were you thinking?

I guess I was just constantly thinking of all. Just the horrific things that could happen, like, the possible torture. Is this what these people do? Is this what they're really in it for? Because at the time, too, I'm like, Aaron, he has some money, but he doesn't have a lot of money. So, like, we don't have family members who are public figures or, like, political or anything. Like, we're just really just ordinary people. Like. Like, I had some money in my mutual funds, but again, it's like nothing substantial. So it really? Yeah, I was. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to really think about because you envision just all the possible ways you could be tortured and killed and, like, am I gonna bleed out slowly? Am I gonna be raped by how many of them? How, like, how am I going to be able to face and tolerate any of that? But I think in that moment, too, knowing that or thinking, like, maybe this is why they do this, I told myself, like, I'm, like, they've clearly systematically laid it out to where I have no defense possible. To me. I'm isolated, bound. I have sedatives blindfolded.

Like, no matter what, even with all of that, I'm still a female. Like, I'm a woman to a man. Like, I can't out round a man. I can't outfight a man. Like, you know, so I told myself, like, the only thing I can control is how I react and respond. So if, like, this is what gets them off, if this is what motivates them to, like, you know, submit a cowering, screaming woman, then I'm not gonna give that to them. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna do that. And if it is my last moment alive, I'm not gonna go out, like, screaming and crying in horror. Like, I'm going to stay calm and focused and be proud of the life I've lived. Like, I'm not gonna give them that. They don't get that. They don't get that last moment of my life. So in a lot of ways, throughout it, like, there's, you know, you have to almost detach because you can't really be present in, like, the horror of the situation. And you have to think of all the possibilities that anything can go wrong. So it's like, if I scream, what's the possibility that they're gonna fight back?

Like, the more time I spent with him, too, like, next to him, feeling his energy, like, yes, he was polite throughout. Like, it was a weird. It was a deliberate, like, procedural politeness, but, like, I could tell, like, bubbling under the surface was this level of aggression. Like. Like, almost like he wanted me to fight back, you know, so he could then, yeah, assert his dominance. And so I just felt like I was, you know, I was just handling the whole situation and him with care and, yeah, he would talk to me a lot in captivity and tell me that he was in the military and had PTSD and couldn't live a normal life, so that's why he's doing something like this. And so I just felt like, okay, like, I felt like maybe there's something in his past that's, like, justifying him to do this. And so I don't want to alienate him. I don't want to create a situation where it's like, you're a crazy monster. You're a bad guy. I just would turn and listen and try to connect with him and talked about therapy. I talked about childhood trauma. I just thought, really, like, my only defense is to show him the human being in front of him and hope maybe he would decide not to kill me.

I can't imagine the mind fuck of you being like, I hate this person. Get me the fuck out of here. But then knowing you have to use your. Your best possible social skills in that moment. Like, you're basically. You never really, really get to see him, right? You're mostly blindfolded. So you're, like, you're saying. You're literally reading his energy of his breaths and the way his tone and how he's speaking. You're having to just hear these sensory moments and having to gage how to respond. How did that mentally affect you? Being, like, I have to be kind almost to my captor. Like, did it ever have you questioning, like, is he not that bad of a guy?

Yeah. And that was part of it. Like, the psychological manipulation and that, like, I could tell that that was part of it. You know, it was so deliberate, so I just kind of fed into it. And also, too, it's like, he would reward me for good behavior. So, like, after he raped me the first time, I was allowed, when I was by myself, to take the blindfold off, and he gave me, like, toiletries to shower with and food and, you know, so it's like, I could see all of this. It was a way to try to condition me. And at the same time, like, I had to take gratitude and the fact that I wasn't being tortured. And he kept saying, like, oh, don't worry. We're gonna release you. And I'm like, you're gonna kill me. And he's like, no, we're gonna release you. It's like, how do I trust that? But I had to, like, connect and have him trust me, because if he gave me a little bit of freedom, a little bit of reward, and I immediately tried to run or scream or fight, then that would show him that he can't, and then maybe that would mean he wouldn't trust that he could release me.

So, like, part of it was, like, knowing what the conditioning was. And then also just, like, at a certain point, you know, it's like, I have to believe that he's not all bad. Like, I have to believe that he's a human being with feelings and that there's some truth to when he says, like, you don't deserve this, and I don't want to dehumanize you. And, you know, so it's like, I want to believe that because I want to believe that I'm going to get out of it alive.

First of all, I'm so sorry. Like, I. I genuinely cannot fathom what you went through. And it's just incredible that you are able to tell your story today and sitting here and I commend you for even being able to do things like this right now and talk through this. And I can imagine it's really fucking hard when you're going through this, like, mental warfare of, like, appease, appease, appease. And then he's telling you, like, I'm not gonna kill you. I'm not gonna kill you. Like, before the assault, did he, like, warn you?

Well, I mean, just being a woman in a situation like that, of course your first thought is like, I'm gonna be raped. Like, it's like, even if that wasn't the intention, because you said that, you know, this is. Were a black market startup company, were hired to fulfill personal and financial debts, and we were hired to target Aaron, and he kept naming Aaron's ex, and everything was about protocol. Like, I have to drug you. I have to, you know, I have to do this. And, you know, so again, there's like, that bit of hope. Maybe that's not what this is about, but it's like, well, but here you have a woman, a body at your disposal.

Like, you.

You are in complete control over it. So, like, anyone who inherently who decides that a kidnapping for ransom is a good idea, like a good business model, you know, there's something really dark there, and so it's like, what's gonna, you know, stop them from doing that and. Yeah, like, later that first day, he came in to say, because it wasn't meant for me, they didn't have any information on me, so they were gonna record him having sex with me, and if they thought I was ever gonna go speak to the police, they would release it on the Internet.

How did that make you feel? Like thinking, like, were you even at that point, were you even scared? Like, were you, like, in your mind, like, fuck it, release it on the Internet?

Or at that point, I just was like, of course this is happening. I mean, you know, it had been hours of wondering, like, if that was gonna happen. So I, like, as much as I'm feeling, like, the soul sucked out of me, I'm also like, of course. Of course this is gonna happen. And, you know, at that point, too, it's like, I mean, what. What do I say? Like what? Like, you put me in the trunk of a car. Like, there's nothing I can say that's gonna stop this. And so just, okay. Like, I. And I just laid there, and I remember thinking, because he had said, like, it's supposed to look consensual or. Yeah, and it's just like this, how there's no fucking way this looks consensual. And I had worried that because of that knowing, like, I mean, I. To get through it and live through it and survive it, I just. I could feel myself fully detached. Like, I was floating overhead watching all this happen, and I just ha. I just had to detach. But, yeah, I was like, this, this. This is gonna happen again. Like, I know it's gonna happen again.

And then the next day he said, you know, the footage wasn't good enough, and this time you have to. You have to seem like you like it, so we have to kiss, and it has to look like we're, like, in a relationship. And.

Now in hindsight, when you look back on that, like, the protocol and, like, we need to film this for, like, do you believe, like, it was all bullshit, it was all just in this person's imagination to, like, make you feel a certain way, or do you actually believe there was certain things protocol wise, that he was actually following?

Well, I know that there was more than one person involved because of what we saw and heard. And the night of the home invasion and also in captivity, like, a different car pulled up and people came out and came inside and they were talking and then left. As far as, like, I believe that they set up these things as protocols to make them believe that they weren't as bad as they are? You know, it's like, it was that kind of this military sense of, like, I have to do this and then I have to do this and I have to do this. I'm going to set up this whole situation. It's like. But these are all rules that you created, you know? And so this is all of your doing. And even when I would say, like, you're going to kill me, I know you're going to kill me. And he's like, no, even if. If that's decided by the other people, like, where I'm not I'm not gonna let that happen. I have an escape plan for my family, and it's like, so you're still here torturing me for two days and raping me, but you have an escape plan.

Like, you don't have, like, you have to go through with this. Like, you. But you. I mean, at least you have, like, some measure of what you won't do. But it's, you know, I just. I mean, yeah, I think all of it was, uh, ways to make them feel better about attacking someone. Like, I don't. You know, I have to do this. No, you don't. You don't have to fucking do anything.

What was your lowest moment in the cabin?

The second rate. Because it was very much like a kind of, like, go fuck yourself. Then, like, fine, you want me to perform? I'll fucking perform. And, like, you're not gonna break me. And the only way I was able to get through it was to, like, just picture that it was Aaron that I was with and that, like, just haunted me and. But, like, I had to call upon something to, like, get me through it. Yeah. I mean, at that point, it was already quite low, and. And then he came in at one point to show me an article with my dad speaking, and I, like, read the words of my dad telling me to be strong, that the family was there. Like, I couldn't keep reading the sentence. I just keeled over and was just crying. And he, like, put his hand on me, and I'm just like, fuck off. Like, yeah. And I think he said something like, oh, this must be real for you now. And it's like, no. Like, I can't imagine what my family's going through, because that whole time, I'm like, okay, I got to be strong and get through this.

And, like, I just could not allow myself to think that my family, like, knew I was missing or, like, knew anything because, like, like, I knew what was happening to me. But I can only imagine, like, as parents, like, what would be going on in your mind, like, wondering, like, what's happening to your little girl? Just. God. But, yeah, like, I feel like, especially that moment, he showed me that to break me, and, like, I was just so fucking pissed at him for succeeding.

Why do you think he showed you that? He wanted it. To rub it in, I think because.

He kept saying throughout the whole thing, you're so strong. Wow. Like, I didn't. You know, like, he'd say, like, we've studied how victims respond in situations like this, and, like, I didn't expect you to, like, he just kept complimenting me and, like, saying how shocked, which was even more reason for me to not give him anything, you know? Like, yeah, bro. Like, I'm. I'm not gonna. Yeah, I'm. You're not gonna see me scared. Yeah, but I. Yeah, it's like, it was sadistic in it in a psychological way.

When you were sitting alone in moments when he wasn't with you, like, what did you. What kept you going? Like, what would you think about that? Gave you hope to be, like, keep it together. We've got this.

My family, my life, my work, Aaron. Like, I just kept thinking about my future. Like, I. It was a balance of, like, coming to peace with the end of my life because I didn't want. If that last moment came, I didn't want to be surprised and shocked and terrified and have it just. And then that's it. Like, I wanted to be solid in the fact that, like, I. Even if I wasn't 30 yet, like, I still lived a good life, and I had a lot to be proud of, and, like, how lucky am I to have the family I have, the friends I have, and, you know, like, I sought out to get my doctorate and be a physical therapist, and I did that, you know, and I. But then I was also just trying to focus on my future, and, like, if I get out of this, what's what. You know, what's next? And so then that can motivate me to continue on. And I, like, called upon anyone and everyone that I could, like, and, you know, like, I'm alone and God knows where. And then there's this human over here who's just, like, terrorizing me, but I was just, like, trying to call upon any energy I could, and, like, it's crazy.

Like, after being released, and, like. I mean, what's sad about it is there was a lot of people when I was in captivity that were praying for me and wishing me well, and.

I felt that you're trying to, like, mourn yourself as you are potentially about to die, and that is, like, no one should have to do that and to know the way that it went when you came out. Let's talk about that, because this is where it's, like, everyone fucking failed you. Your kidnapper tells you he's gonna bring you home. Did he explain why?

He said that he was gonna release me, but there was media coverage. Aaron had gone to the police, and it would be. I think he used the term. It was too hot in the Bay area to release me. And he also said that he wanted me to be able to get to family. Like, I've been through enough. And he asked where, you know, where my family lived. And he had my purse, my belongings, and it had my mom's home address on it. So it was like, I can't lie. And also, do you want to be able to get to someone? And so we agreed on a cross street, and he even said, like, well, what if your parents aren't home? What if? And. But I've got childhood friends who live walking distance. I was just like, what? Like, just, like, let me. Okay, sure. Like, if you're going to do it, please. Yeah. Like, and so we agreed on a cross roads that was, like, a half a mile from my mom's. And, I mean, even on the drive down, like, he gave me a higher sedative, and I was passed out for, like, the nine hour drive.

But I still wasn't sure if what he was saying was just to try to appease me and help make sure that I comply. And so when he woke me up and said, we're here, like, I just. You know, he said he was in an alley out of you from the street. And when he drove off, like, I still wasn't sure if I was actually where he said I was until I stepped out and saw the name of the street and was like, I'm home.

In that moment, just on the street. Because I know it didn't last long. In your brain, did you think, like, I'm free, I'm safe?

No. I mean, I never really felt that. I mean, physically, like, okay, like, what? He's gone. Like, the car. Like, I've heard it drive off. It's gone. But before he had me out, took me out of the car, he was like, you know, aaron went to the police, and you're gonna have to talk to them. And you can say whatever I told you about the organization, but you can't say two things. You can't say anything about any of us being in the military or anything about us having sex. His words. And, you know, we know where your family live. Like, we. Like, we monitor victims for years based on everything that he had done and said so far. Like, yeah, I believe that they would be watching me. They would be monitoring me. And so, although physically free, I felt like I was going to be confined and restrained by their threats forever.

So when he releases you, I understand what you're saying. You're like, as much as I was free physically, I felt mentally still captive. Knowing that this person is, like, we're watching your family. Don't do this. Don't say this to the police. You're kind of beholden because, again, you're now aware of what this person and these people are capable of. And so surviving this awful, traumatic experience should have been the end of it for you. You get out and you have a complete new set of problems once you're released from your captor. When did you start to realize that the police and media didn't believe anything that you were about to tell them?

I think there was moments. So a neighbor at my dad's. My dad wasn't home. She recognized me, brought me in. Within minutes. There was two Huntington beach offices there and I spoke to them for like an hour and a half. And as I'm speaking to them, I hear helicopters outside. Like, the media's collecting. There's people, dogs barking. It was like this. And they're like, oh, yeah, it's a media storm out there. And I'm just like. I mean, I thought, like, maybe there was like, a local report from, like, what he showed me in captivity. Like, I had no clue, like, that it was aired, you know, all over. And when I'm speaking to the police, I. One moment I see him holding a recording device by his side and he didn't tell me he was recording. And that was like a. Like that felt threatening. And I had told the officers, too, like, I'm afraid of them coming back. I'm afraid of what I say here is going to be leaked to the media and they'll find out. And it was just like a really horribly conflicted position to be in because I didn't want to lie.

But then I'm like, if I speak to them, the chances are I might have to. So I don't want to do something that could maybe save me, but hurt my family later on. And I was also. I remember there was waiting, like, they said they needed to talk to the Vallejo police. So we're going to get a hold of them. We're going to get a hold of them. And the time was going on. Just something didn't feel right. And then when they finally did get connected with the lead Vallejo detective, he had said that he was going to be offering a proffer of agreement, which is basically immunity. I'm just like, immunity from what? I'm a victim of a crime. And it made it all more terrifying because of how the whole kidnapping went. Like, how arrogant my captor was. He was like, yeah, there's media, but it's okay. It's gonna be good pr for our group. It shows us. Shows, you know, people that they can hire us, and we are not gonna, like, overreact and kill the victim. And it's just like. And even his threats of, like, we'll know what you say.

Like, we'll always be watching. And I was just like, oh, my God. Is this phase two of the kidnapping? Like, is like, why are the police behaving this way? Like, I had family talking to the lead detective, and they're like, he's angry. He's yelling. He's cussing. Like, they want you to come up and make a statement. There's an FBI plane here, and my family. I have a couple family members who are attorneys. And they're like, no, we need a criminal defense attorney. No more statements. And the fact that people were shocked that I got an attorney, especially the detectives themselves, it's like, you offered me a legal agreement, and I don't know what the fuck that is. I don't know what that means. I don't know what my rights are. Like, I don't know anything. How do you expect me to navigate this? So, yeah, I'm gonna consult with an.

Attorney, but especially when you're like, they're offering me immunity. You're like, I was just kidnapped. What do you mean, me, immunity? Don't you want to go catch the guy?

Right. And that's why I just felt like they're framing us. Someone's involved in here. It was just so, like, none of it made sense. I didn't. Like, then who do you turn to? Like, who do you go to?

So can you quickly just, like, paint the picture? What were the theories people had? What did they believe happened?

They. I don't fucking know. I mean, because all of it doesn't make sense. So, like, Aaron called 911 and went to the police station and told them what happened, and they immediately said he was a murderer and that. Yeah, like, they're gonna find my dead body. Like, I'm looking for a dead Denise. Not alive Denise. You killed her. You know, either you could be a cold, calculated monster. You can admit you made a mistake. And he just endured 18 hours of interrogation because he thought, I can't admit to something I didn't do. And if I push back and get an attorney, I'm going to alienate them. And, like, my main focus is them finding her. So we just thought, like, if I endure a little more. A little more, they're going to see the truth, and they'll try to find her. And then I was forced to record a proof of life in captivity. So the next day, when that was sent, then they immediately went from, like, you guys were fighting so you murdered her, to then I made this up to get back at him. But then when I'm released, it's the both of us in on it together to get famous.

I don't like to. Like, someone had a theory about, like, wanting to be, like, reality tv or. I like, I don't fucking know. And so Aaron's brother is an FBI agent, and he's like, just at the. Like, she. I had worked in LA right before moving up to Vallejo. He's like, so she. She moves from LA to try to pursue her fame in Vallejo, California. None of it made sense.

I think another theory that was so terrifying when I was watching the doc was the fact that gone girl, the movie with Ben Affleck, had come out and everyone was like, this is the real life gone girl. She's faking her death and then coming back. And it's like, how fucked that people were comparing something that actually happened to you and being like, maybe she's trying to be like the movie. Like, when you started seeing that, like, did you want to fucking scream?

I mean, I didn't watch any of that, actually. Like, I was released and then had to immediately go find an attorney. Like, got to him at 10:00 at night and he's like, look, the Vallejo police just held a press conference and completely threw you under the bus and said it was all a lie. So the world thinks you're a liar. Like, you're not gonna be able to work again. Like, you're. You know. So I'm, like, literally, like, everything I had focused on in captivity of, like, I want to get back to my life was just taken away from me. And I still was fucking terrified that, like, they were gonna come back and kill me. And so I'm like, do I speak to them? Do I not? Like, I finally do. And then the next two days is being interrogated by not just the Vallejo police, but also the FBI. I had to go in for a sard exam. And my criminal defense attorney is telling me, like, look, like, it's. It's really grueling. It's like a four hour long thing. Like, they're gonna, like, strip you down, they take pictures of you, they examine you internally, and I'm like, okay.

Like, how bad can it be until, like, I'm fucking there? I mean, it's like, the last humiliating, like, thing that you could go through, like, so soon after your body being attacked and violated. But it's like, okay. Like, I've got to do my duty, you know? Like, I gotta make sure that this doesn't happen to another woman, another person. And then all of that, it was just, like, used against me. And remember the second day before I was going in for questioning with the FBI? My attorney said, like, they're calling you gone girl. And I'm like, well, what does that mean? Is that a bad thing? Like, I don't. I didn't read the book. I didn't. I didn't see the movie. I didn't know what the. I. Like, I heard about it, but, like. Like, is that bad? He's like, okay, like, we're gonna go in for questioning, you know? And it's just. And then I think, like, I watched one Nancy Grace clip and was like, I can't. I can't fucking watch. Watch a thing.

I think it's also so sad to hear, like, how many people have said to women, like, why didn't you just get, like, an exam? Like, after you were raped? Like, why didn't you get an exam? And it's like, to go through the most violating traumatic experience to then basically reopen your body again to be violated. It's like, I just. It's such an awful headspace that people even feel comfortable to ask a question to a woman that's already been violated. Like, why don't.

Basically.

Why don't I want to get violated again? Is that what you're asking me? And it's. And it's so frustrating. In history, we've seen so many people, like, she didn't get the rape kit because it didn't happen. And it's like, it's so small minded, and it's also just such. From a male perspective. And I know you were dealing with a lot of men in this case that we're looking at you wondering why you didn't act a certain way. I mean, I wrote down, people were claiming you weren't believable because you acted too calm. You didn't seem physically injured enough, and you weren't sad enough. How did that make you feel?

I mean, in the moment, I was just shocked by it all. I. I mean, even the questioning. Like, the FBI agent asked, like, did you scream? Like, no. Why? I was woken from a dead sleep. There was multiple people there. Like, I didn't. And I think he even asked, like, did you think about screaming? Like, somebody asked me that. I remember saying, like, well, I thought about it? Yeah. I thought about all the things, all the things I could possibly do. Are you fucking kidding me? Like, every second, I'm trying to, like, solve the math problem in my head, like, what's the probability of me screaming to get me out alive? Nope. Okay. Like, what about me fighting? I'm drugged. Nope. Okay. Can I run? I don't know where I'm at. No. Like, you know, like, it's just so, like, what defense do I have? I have my ability to connect with human beings. So. Okay. Like, that's my best defense right now. And it got me out alive. So, like, fuck all of them for their stupid shit. And you know what? Like, just what's crazy about it, too, is they're trained to know better.

So, like, Aaron's brother is an FBI agent. He's also in the army. I've had a friend's husband who's a marine. They're like, they teach us, if you are ever kidnapped or taken hostage, that you build a rapport. Like, you figure out how to survive. You get food, water, and you build a rapport to get yourself out. Like, what you did is what we're trained to do. Like, I don't want to be, like, sexist or, like, put people in a box of, like, you know, because they're dudes. They don't get it, but, like, something isn't clicking and it's not carrying over. Like, I know that they get training that not all victims act the same, but they don't treat victims that way. So it's just like, what. What has to happen? And then there's a female detective who is the one that, like, looked outside of the box and saw the whole picture and said, nope, there's another victim out there. I gotta find her. And she's the one that, like, saved us and saved our lives. And so it's just, you know, and you hear of other cases where it's, like, the female detective who is linking, and so it's like, I mean, I think more women in general in the environment with them, and, like, if they actually listen and heard them would be helpful.

Well, I think even what you're saying, denise, too, it's like we experience life completely different than men. It's like, oh, I'm sure you would have screamed, and then you would have tried to lunge at him and punch him in the face and tackled him. The ground. We can't do that, right? We physically cannot. We know we're smarter than that. Why didn't you scream? Every woman in the room would be like, duh. Like, of course you didn't scream. But it's like, because men are so privileged in those type of moments to just use their, like, brute force. Like, we don't. We can't rely on that. And so it's disheartening to hear you're staring at all these men being like, what do you mean? Did I scream? Like, of course they didn't scream. And they're like, why? As if you're guilty for something. You're lying. You must be lying.

I mean, everything was about me or Aaron. Like, neither one of us behaved in the right way. And it was helpful later on to hear from an expert in coercive control, Laura Richards. She has a podcast, real crime profile, but she was saying it was studied in men primarily. Like, this fight or flight response. It's fight, flight, freeze. And then there's also fawn, and that's the woman's primarily more innate defense of, like, the pleas and appease. Like, I know I can't fight. I know I can't flee. Like, you win, so then what else can I do? And that's what a lot of women have to do. And it is, like, really infuriating that it's, like, this day and age. Why don't. We should know better. We know better. We should, right?

It's so interesting you said that. I just interviewed a woman who was attacked by a man, and it was Megan fox talking about being assaulted. And she was like, I fond, and, like, I know that was, like, my initial reaction is, don't fight back. De escalate the situation. And as women, that's, like, our way to, like, get ourselves out alive. And again, men are just like, huh? Like, you didn't fight back because I wanted to live.

Yeah, exactly. Like, you endure one whore so you can save yourself from another, and so you could save your life.

When you're talking to me about this, like, I'm trying to even comprehend, like, you go through this dramatic experience, you come out, no one's believing you, like, did in a way that almost feel worse.

You're like, yeah, yeah, 100%. What I deal, the. Yeah. The processing through everything, like, the pain, all of it, like, the. What happened after the kidnapping absolutely has been the hardest part to deal with because I think you can kind of, like, understand that there's people out there who are motivated to cause harm, and it's just a really unfortunate, horrible situation that it, like, we were targeted. It happened. When you go through a traumatic event, you want to call upon your community, like, the people in your life, other humans, to help get you through it, to help give you strength and support like, you were trained your whole life. Call 911. If something bad happens, call 911 and they'll help. And they only made it worse. And by their public statements, like, people saw my name and saw my face and they thought, gone girl. Liar, hoaxter, fraud, you know, and, like, how can I work again? Like, you know, like, how can I put my hands on another human and have them, like, trust me with their well being if they think I'm some con artist? And so, like, everything I worked for, everything that meant something to me, it was taken from me.

And so it. It was. Yeah, it was devastating. Like, and it just was the constant, like, I'm not performing well enough for any of you, like, from captivity and assaults, and then, you know, you're not emotional enough. You're not. I mean, even though I was sitting there, like, my head in my hand, sobbing to these officers, like, somehow that's not emotional enough. Like, I'm drugged, but, like, I just. Yeah, I mean, everything. Even, like, things that my family told the police, like, oh, she. She runs half marathons, and she. She's a fighter and she's strong, and they use that against me. Like, oh, you're. You're strong. Like, well, yeah, I mean, I'm not.

Like, I'm in shape, I guess, but I'm not.

Like, I'm not fast enough. Like, I remember telling the law enforcement, like, I. I run with Aaron. Like, I don't catch. I can't. Like, we're not on pace. Like, I know my strengths and I know my limitations, and that's, like, really important for me to figure out what to use in a situation like that.

Denise, I am so sorry you had to deal with that because just, again, as you're talking about it, I'm, like, to go from the absolute lowest moment of your life, and you're wanting to, like, fling yourself to everyone and be like, I'm back. I'm alive. I made it. Oh, my God. And everyone just slams the fucking door in your face and is like, what the fuck were you doing? You were trying to get famous off of this. And you're like, no, I was just assaulted and abused and, like, mentally fucked with. For how many days? Like, listen to me. And no one believes you. Like, I cannot imagine this psychological warfare that must have put you in a spiral of, like, how did it affect during that time, your day to day life? Like, did friends turn on you?

My close friends? Aaron's close friends, they all supported us and all believed in us, and that that was, you know, in our families, like, that, you know, because you can hear and see, like, how things can get twisted with family or, you know, like, the possibilities of that. But, like, both of our families unconditionally, like, embraced us and each other, and. And he hadn't met most of my family yet, you know? So it's like, hi, sir, I'm dating your daughter. Like, you know, like, it's like, nice to meet you under these circumstances. It was just all so crazy. But, you know, the little bit of stuff I looked on, on social media, the Facebook, and, like, some people who had originally, like, oh, you know, she's missing. And then they would post articles, you know, highlighting gone girl and going, I don't get it, and kind of, like, jumped into that whole. That whole thing, and that was another thing that was really devastating, because it's like, okay, maybe like, this officer who's misogynistic and stupid thinks I'm gone girl, but someone who knows me. And then you think back to all the things that you've done in your life, and you're like, have I given people an excuse to think that I'm this horrible person?

And so there's a lot of self blame and the loss of self and identity. Yeah. I mean, it's people, you know, go out and give their opinion and their hate, thinking, like, well, I'm allowed to. I'm justified to. It's just words. Like, it's. It causes a lot. A lot of trauma. A lot of trauma. And it's like you're. You're no better. Just because you're not hitting someone doesn't mean that you're not causing severe damage.

Until he was, like, found. What was your lowest moment when you were out? Until he was, like, found. What was your lowest moment when you were out?

I think the lowest moment was after two days of being interrogated. The FBI agent saying, there's a lot of inconsistencies in your story. And essentially, I don't believe you. And he told my attorney he's 99% sure I was lying and that my attorney should watch gone girl. It was just kind of like. Like, there's like, I. All I had was the truth. Aaron, same thing. All we did was just give them. Give them the truth. And it was just like. I mean, how. It's like you're hitting your head against the wall like you're in a twilight zone. I mean.

I'm sure you've had through writing the book and the documentary and interviews, like, you've had probably some time to think about it. Like, why do you think women have to work so fucking hard to be believed?

I think it's still just really easy for people to think that women are attention seeking and overly dramatic and conniving. I mean, it's really sad. Like, it. Like, even the responses from other women that I got was like, wow. Like, do you view yourself this way? This is how you see women. This is really disturbing. But I think a lot is set up and society, and, I mean, still, even now with the Netflix series out and, like, the truth out, people still criticize Erin and I not emoting enough and not being believable or just being, like, vanilla or. I mean, you name it.

Well, also, like, not. You literally talk about, like, dissociating from your body. That can take, like, a lifetime to, like, completely repair and reengage and, like, get yourself back to a place that you can even, like, go on with your day to day life and not, like, every day. I'm sure you think about this every single day. This is with you for the rest of your life. Like, there's parts that you have to compartmentalize so you can survive, so that you can be with your children, so that you can smile. And it's like, you're so right. It's like, if they cry too much, then, like, they're performing. If you don't cry enough, then you're soulless. And it's like, there is no right answer. And the fucked up thing is all the judgment is coming from people who have never experienced it. How the fuck do you know how you would respond in this situation?

Well, and that's where, I mean, I'm hopeful that the true crime genre is changing and shifting and evolving, because that's, you know, people had the wrong perception of how people behave in extreme situations. And again, I can, like, get why people in the public might. You know, their only experience is by watching something. But when law enforcement goes to fiction and uses that as a measure to judge people, that's where it's really terrifying. But, like, honestly, I finally watched gone girl probably, like, nine months after the kidnapping. I couldn't face it. And when I watched it, I was like. It actually released a lot of that self blame. Cause I was like, it didn't matter what I did. I mean, you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. It didn't matter. They believed what they believed. And whatever I did or said was only going to fit that box. And so was able to kind of release myself from it. Like, this wasn't about me. Like, that's not. It's not me. It's. It's their view of someone, of women, of whoever. But it's. It's not me.

No. It's like, I remember talking to Amanda Knox and her being, like, all of a sudden, I turned around, and it was like, about, like a. It was like a sex case where I was, like, this crazy woman that was, like, having threesomes. And Amanda was like, wait, what? Like, how did. Yeah, someone just died. Like, can we go find the person? Like, I'm having threesomes with my roommate. Like, this is not. And people love to.

For.

Especially for women, there's, like, this narrative. You're right. That it's, like, they want us to play into this role. And I think why it's hard to believe us is because people don't want to. Because it will completely disrupt the societal norms of, like, men dictate. Women are, like, emotional and erratic and dramatic, and that's how everyone wants to be. Because if we actually start listening to women and we start taking what they're saying at face value, what is that going to do to the people that run the entire fucking country?

Yeah, I think people just don't want to admit how bad it is, because then if you know how bad it is and you're not doing anything about it, then you're complicit.

When your kidnapper was arrested and people started to realize you were telling the truth the whole time, how did that make you feel?

I mean, it all. It all felt horrible. I mean, it really did. Because when we found out about it, he got caught for attacking another family. And then we were reading in the FBI affidavit that there were calls that were placed the first night I was in captivity that the police could have traced back to the location I was in captivity in. And they could have saved me. And even if for whatever delay, they couldn't have saved me and I was still released, they could have explored that and caught him. And instead, they were just so focused on being right that another family was attacked. And it took a detective, female detective Misty, to look beyond her case. She noticed there was a blonde hair on goggles, and her victims all had dark hair. And so she thought, there's more to this. And even that, she came up with a lot of resistance, trying to pursue that beyond the case that was in front of her. And so it's just like, I mean, I'm glad she's our hero, and we're fortunate to have our life back and for people to know the truth, but it's just, like, so frustrating, because at what cost?

You know? And. And even after that, like, there's no accountability. There's no real, like, sorry we did this. We're gonna make sure we'll never do it again. You know? So it's just, like, it's just one disappointment.

Didn't the male officers literally get promoted?

Yeah. The lead detective, cot. Officer of the year. It's, like, that year. And we named him in a civil lawsuit too. Like, that year. He, like, messes up their, like, the, you know, the most publicized case they've had in a while get named in a lawsuit, but they, like, have to stroke his ego so much to give him officer of the year. It's just.

It's fucking disgusting. Even just that right there is such a testament to, like, the world we fucking live in.

What is encouraging is that there are so many law enforcement officers who've reached out to us, especially with the Netflix series coming out and being like, this is awful. This is not how it should be. We wanted. They're, like, dedicated to make change, and so that's something that Aaron and I want to do, is speak with law enforcement and work with them and see how can we all do better. Let's work together and. And really, what's our common goal? Like, let's just all help each other and be there for each other.

What would you say to anyone that's a woman listening or watching today that has come forward to share her story in some capacity and wasn't believed?

I feel you. I think the biggest thing. I'm just gonna get emotional, but just to always believe in yourself. There was times both Aaron and I, like, question our own sanity. Like, did this really happen? Am I who I believe I am, or am I this horrible person that no one can believe in? You know? And so, like, I think sometimes it's human nature two, to, like, blame yourself, because the only thing you can control is yourself. So if it's your fault, maybe. Maybe then you could protect yourself better later on. And so it's kind of hard to actually just. Yeah, release yourself from that and go just. It's not my fault, and I did the best I can, and I'm not going to let anyone gaslight me. And, like, I mean, even with the assaults, for me, like, I had this view, like, it's not all that bad. It wasn't that bad in the FBI affidavit, it said there was no signs of non consensual sex. So it was just, like, time and time again. It wasn't that bad. She came up unharmed, unscathed, like, all these things that just cut away, devaluing how I felt and what I went through.

And so, yeah, I think just, like, the biggest thing is just to believe in yourself. Like, never give up on yourself. That can be really hard sometimes, you know?

How have you been trying and, like, what has the process been to, like, reclaim your relationship to your body after this?

Well, it's still an evolving process. Yeah, we've gone through therapy. Like, Erin and I have gone through couples therapy, individual therapy, and, you know, try to work on, like, moments of gratitude and being present in the moment and appreciating, just, like, life in general and all the little moments in life. And I've had body work done and tried meditation and, you know, just even, like, working out, boxing, like, different ways to, like, feel empowered and strong, speaking, kind of taking the narrative back and has been helpful and even just, like, journaling, it was helpful, but it's still. There's a lot of deep pain. So I am exploring more therapy now, and I think just kind of admitting to myself, ourselves, times when it's, like, okay, like, we need to refocus. And so I'm looking into EMDR because I hear great things about it. So, like, that, I'm hoping that that can help some of that, just because there's, like, a disconnect from logically what I know versus, like, what my body feels and processes. And so I just need to find a way to reconnect those two things.

I think that, like you said, speaking about it in a way that, like, you're reclaiming the narrative, I think, for women, listening, like, everyone has to take their own time and, like, how, you know, when you're ready to try to start to heal again. Like, I know there's probably so many people that are, like, immediately get into therapy. Like, throw yourself into therapy. Like, some people can't do it immediately. Like, you need time.

There's layers upon layers of the trauma, too. So, like, trying to peel that back or, like, something that might be triggering then isn't as much now, but then there's something that's different, you know? I mean, being a parent is, like, another amazing, wonderful thing, and then also, like, brings up a lot of fear and worry and. But then is also a motivator to speak out and demand that things need to be better. Like, things need to be. Be better for them.

I think a lot of people, I'm sure, were like, how did you and Erin decide to stay together? Because I was thinking about that. I'm like, on the one hand, I would think, like, oh, my gosh, he's the only person that understands it. He went through with you. On the other hand, I'm sure people would be like, you're each a living reminder of the trauma. Like, was there ever a moment you weren't sure you were going to stay together? How did you decide?

I mean, I think we both knew, even just, you know, back up to that night of the home invasion. Like, we knew that we were meant to be together. And overcoming something like this and living through it and surviving it together, I mean, it could break a lot of people up, for sure, and I could see how that could happen. But we really, like, support each other and are patient with each other, and we never blamed one another. I mean, I think that's, like, one of the biggest things. It was never, like, pointing the finger of, like, you should have done this or said this or whatever, you know? So we're, like, each other's biggest fans, and we really try to, like, lift and support. Support each other and. Yeah, and I think, too, just, like, having good communication and admitting, like, okay, this isn't working right now. Like, something needs to change. And being able to have the space to have those conversations because, yeah, there's just different things that can come up.

Do you still live in constant fear?

It comes and goes, but, yeah, when I. Yeah, and then the speaking out publicly, like, when I. When we released the book, and even just now with the Netflix series, it's like, I keep thinking I'm at a better place. I know I'm at a better place, but it. Again, like, the public shaming mixed with thinking that I was going to be killed, it just brings all of that up. And so, yeah, the hyper vigilance and, like, thinking of and imagining all the things that could happen is distracting. Yeah.

You have two children. Congratulations.

Thank you.

As you mentioned, like, I. I can imagine said, for you, it's a. It's terrifying to just have children in general, because all you want to do is protect them. On top of that, you're dealing with something that is an extraordinary trauma. Like, have you guys talked about how you will explain this to your children one day?

I don't know exactly when that conversation will happen or exactly how that will look like, but I know that they will know what happened to us. And I think, you know, as they get older and even just little things of, like, teaching them consent and boundaries and, you know, respecting their body and other people's bodies, and so incorporating what we've gone through in small moments like that and kind of building blocks. Yeah, I still don't know the exact right age for. For when, like. And then I'm sure it'll be parts of it, and. But I definitely don't want to keep anything from them. I want them to know that no matter what happens in their life, that they can always come to us and be honest with us, and we will always support them. And I definitely want them to know their value and their worth and not let anyone dictate that to them. And, you know, it's good to be strong, but fighting doesn't always have to be what it people think it is. You know, there's power and strength and patience and. Yeah, you don't have to be aggressive and instantly react to be powerful and strong, but, you know, I mean, I'm sure I'm gonna get them in, like, martial arts and all sorts of stuff, too, you know, like.

Yeah, but, I mean, I think it's just good to, like, mechanically, you know, the PT nerd in me, it's just, you know, physically, that's a good idea, but, yeah, you know, how have you.

Changed as a person after surviving this horrific experience?

I think there's a lot that's changed and then a lot that hasn't. You know, in some ways, I feel like, especially kind of going through the process of trying to eliminate the self blame and all of that, I become more grounded and confident in who I am at my core and realizing, no, I'm not what all these people thought or said. I know who I am. I know who I am in the world and to other people, to my family, I think a lot of people would think that you could get quite jaded after going through something like this, but I just. I mean, I try to be practical and cautious, but I also do still see the good in people and in the world. And so I want to try to, like, harness that and use that and turn it and keep kind of setting the motion towards positivity and, yeah, I mean, there's. I'm gonna have a lifelong battle of dealing with trauma and pain, but I know that I can do that. I can still have joy and gratitude and enjoy moments and life and laugh and be silly and joke and, you know, can still have all the good, even with all of this, you know, totally.

Last question. What change do you hope comes for survivors and women. By telling your story.

I mean, at the core baseline is just, again, for women to believe in themselves. And I'm hoping as more survivors speak out, it empowers others. I know that I was definitely empowered by watching others speak out and realize, like, okay, like, maybe I could do that, too. And, yeah, if we just hear from more people and we realize what the issues are, then we have a better idea of what needs to change.

I also think, and, like, because I have so many women that listen, and I think something that stuck with me when you were talking about it, Denise, was, like, reading online, like, other women speaking about you in a way that you were like, is this how we, like, think of each other? And it makes me so sad, honestly, because it's like if all we have at some point is each other, like, every woman can relate in some capacity to each other of, like, we know what it's fucking like. We know the sexualization. We know people don't believe us. We know we're told to be silent. We know all of this. We've lived it. Like you said, we grow up watching it in art and movies and books everywhere. It's like there's this romanticizing. When a woman is weak and doesn't stand up for herself, and when a woman does stand up for herself, you're demonized and you're a bitch and you're loud and you're obnoxious. And if a man did the same thing, it just wouldn't be. It wouldn't be taken the same way. And so it's like, how I appreciate, aside from the work you're also doing in law enforcement right now, also, just for women of, like, this is a really important conversation that you're someone that came forward and should have been, you should have been believed, and you went through something horrific.

And sadly, like, a lot of the themes, a lot of women listening have probably gone through, like, one in three women is assaulted. It's like, these are things of us just constantly, like you said, when he's going away to jail and he'll be released when he's 70, it's like, no, no. It's a power dynamic. It's like men getting off on making us feel small, making us feel weak. How do we as women just start to, like, fucking support each other a little bit more and believing each other? Because they're not going to believe us because it threatens everything in society. If we start to rise up and we start to be considered equal, then everything is going to fucking flip. On its head. So how do we at least have a little bit more of unity with each other to be like, I see you, I've been there, and I don't know the answer. I think it's important to talk.

I mean, yeah, talk and hear and listen and just try to remind ourselves, like, no matter what you think or think, you know, of a situation, you don't know it all. Even if it's something small, you know, like office gossip or something, like, you just don't know. And I think we just need to recognize that and try to empathize with people and just try to receive each other with a little bit more openness and love, and the very least, try to, like, recognize when we're being judgmental and not act on that. Judgment would be nice.

Yeah. I cannot thank you enough for coming. I think back to what you said where you're like, I did react exactly how I should have reacted. And you're so right. Like, you did every single thing that you could have done to survive and then some. And for anyone to judge you on how you responded to something that most of us can never fathom going through and surviving, like, shame on everyone for failing you. And I'm just so happy that I got to speak with you because the Netflix documentary, like, yes, it was very in detail, and I got to see.

A picture of it.

But speaking and being able to look you in the eyes and seeing how this is affecting you day to day. Yeah. I pray to God that this conversation and what you're doing out there can help the next woman that goes through this. And then everyone's like, know we believe her and we see her, and this is going to make a difference. So thank you so much for coming. I really appreciate it.

Thank you for having me.