What is up, daddy?

Gang?

It is your founding father, Alex Cooper with call her daddy. Daddy.

Daddy.

Hello, hello, hello. We're back at it again. Daddy gang. It is another episode of call her daddy. And today we got a big one. We've got Emily Ratakowski. A lot of you probably think about Emily Ratakowski and you're like, wow, she's just really hot. Thought ends there. She's really fucking hot. And she is, and I will be honest, no negative feelings towards Emily at all. I just didn't have much of an opinion. I was like, she's beautiful. I wish I looked like her. And that's that. But I had the privilege of meeting her and sitting down with her and reading her book early. From the time that Emily was a little girl, how she looked mattered. And that didn't just come from the outside world. It was generated inside her own home. Her mom, who was also beautiful, and her mom's experience as a beautiful woman directly affected how she raised Emily. In the Rattikowski household, looks were everything. So then Emily starts modeling in high school and is actually using her looks to make money off of her body. And that complicated things even more. So now, instead of just her mom and her dad and random people in the supermarket commenting on her beauty, now it's a creep.

With a binder filled with her photos commenting on underage Emily's fuckability and trigger warning. In this episode, we are discussing sexual assault. Two chapters in, three, four chapters into her book. Every single chapter is unveiling a new story of her experiencing sexual assault. Trauma. Rape. I had no fucking idea about any of this. And what's pretty frightening and shocking is that people may not even care. I was staying at the Greenwich hotel in New York City, and I had Emily there, like, right after I landed and she walked in. And her and her publicist, I had asked them because the news had just broken. Robin Thicke assaulting Emily Ratikowski had just hit the Internet, and I had read the book at that point, so I knew the behind the scenes and the story and what this man had done and how he was abusing his power and what was going on in Emily's head when all that happened. And then also just the backstory of her having been assaulted numerous other times in her life. Like, this was not just a one off. This woman has been taken advantage of and sexually abused since she was a very young girl.

And so she walks in and her publicist was like, yeah, it's really. It's really shocking to see some of the comments in Twitter, people are like, oh, woe is you, Emily. Okay. You were fucking dancing around naked on the blurred line set. Like, boo hoo, no fucking shit. Someone's gonna grab your tits. You're naked. What? You were doing your job. And so for anyone to be like, Emily, you were naked on the set of blurred lines.

Yeah.

And so were multiple other women, and that was their job. That's what they were getting paid to do. I don't care if she's naked or she's wearing a turtleneck. That doesn't give you the right to fucking go up and sexually assault someone. Having good looks absolutely gives you a certain privilege that others don't have. That's a fact. But just because you're hot doesn't mean that we can then deem your sexual assault experiences as void. Because you're just fucking hot. Shut up and go model. No. Just because you're hot doesn't mean you aren't a feminist. Miriam Webster, definition of feminism. Feminism is the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities. Unless you post bikini photos. No. Like, it doesn't fucking say that people that are going to look and be like, no, because Emily is objectifying herself. She's posting these slutty bikini photos, and she's the one that's making herself an object. No. So maybe you're the type of feminist that likes to wear turtlenecks. Amazing. You're doing great, sweetie. Or there's Emily, who likes to post bikini photos to make money. Again. You're doing great, sweetie. There is no right or wrong brand of feminism.

If you believe in the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of equality of the fucking sexes, then you are a feminist. Emily's book is a discourse on how being treated like an object affects a person. You can be privileged, but that doesn't exempt you from feeling bad, feeling pain. And the result of lifelong objectification is dissociation. For example, Emily writes in her book that she dissociates so much from her body that when she's having sex with her own husband, she has to fuck in front of a mirror so she can watch herself and visually attempt to reconnect with her body, and in her mind says to herself, I'm having sex. My body is having sex. Now, to everyone that hasn't read the book or everyone that just likes to skim through Twitter and not actually read, Emily in this book is just shedding light on her journey and her experience and isn't asking for anything. And she also isn't taking any, like, huge, controversial stance. She's just talking about her experience. Emily and I, we only had an hour together, and I was really impressed. There's a lot in this interview that she sheds even more light on in the book, and it's.

And it's pretty remarkable. Daddy. Gang, let's just get into it. Here is Emily Ratakowski. Emily Ratakowski, welcome to call her daddy.

Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.

I'm so happy you're here.

Congrats on the huge deal. Insane and so awesome.

Thank you.

Thank you. It's been a wild ride, I'm sure. But, like, how cool. You definitely won.

Pretty cool.

Also, just, like, showed them all is how I feel.

Most importantly, congratulations on having a baby this year.

Thank you. You have two babies.

You have your book, and then you have your baby.

Yes, I had two babies.

What is the best thing about being mother? And what is the hardest thing?

Oh, my God. Best thing is, like, everything you've heard before, the love that you have for them is indescribable. Like, I know everyone says that. I truly don't have words. I've tried. Doesn't work. They are just this, like, chunk that you made in your body. Like, it's insane. And he has personality now. Like, he really, like, respond, like, all that stuff, and it's just getting better and better. The worst thing, I mean, I just. Nobody told me that they feed every two to 3 hours when they come home from the hospital. Really? Like two every hour and a half. And if you're breastfeeding, that means you're in demand and you don't know how much they're getting. And they're like, you know, it's like a creature when it comes. I mean, he was really cute when he was born, but still, you know, and you're trying to keep them alive with your boobs, and you're not getting no, no sleep. So it's hard to picture it, though, until you do it. Honestly, I had so many friends who talked to me about it, and I still didn't get it. So now I say the two to 3 hours thing.

So does my husband will be like, every two to 3 hours, they feed. Like, you're gonna come home, and that's through the night, and that's for months. Like, just get ready, you know, because, like, somehow it didn't get through to us.

So that's like your life.

Yeah, it is. But it's also like you're on cloud nine, and hopefully you're not trying to write a book or something like, because that would be so crazy to do that at the same time.

How long did it take you to write the book?

I've been working on it for three and a half years. Three and a half years. I sold it around this time last year, and it was already, like, 50,000 words, so it was really more the editing and stuff I was doing post baby and the last essay I wrote after and stuff, so.

Okay, we're going all the way back. Raised in Socal.

Yes. Okay.

And only child.

Yes.

My mom is an only child, but I always will hear her be like, you know, I basically had to become an adult quickly because you're just surrounded by adults all the time.

Yeah.

Experience being raised as an only child.

Definitely. That is true. It's interesting. My husband's also an only child. I know a lot of only children because I think we have, like, a weird understanding about just, like, baseline stuff in our experience. My parents were definitely. I was just kind of included as an adult in the family. Like, we were more of a unit than a family dynamic of parents and kid. I remember, like, having a lot of imaginary, you know, friends, but also just being, like, sitting at the dinner table and trying to have fun with adults and, like, make sure that they like me. So you just kind of get this. I don't know. Yeah, you grow up quicker. And I also remember, like, I really, like, I definitely had a lot of friends growing up and stuff, but I remember coming into middle school, and it felt like I was a little bit behind everyone else. Like, I. I just think that I had spent so much time with my parents that it wasn't like I didn't have the same sort of, like, cool around people my age. Got it. But I feel like it ended up being a good thing in the long run.

But it definitely. I felt, like, awkward. I was like, I feel more comfortable talking to adults than I do my peers, you know?

Do you think that you are gonna have one child?

No, I don't think so. I definitely want more than one for that reason.

That's interesting. Yeah, I didn't realize. Cause your husband also is the only child that's interesting that you guys, like. No.

Yeah, I mean, listen, it's. Having more than one child in New York City is, like, kinda psycho. Like, it's crazy. I also have a 90 pound dog. Like, what am I doing? Also, when you get older and you have to start taking care of your parents, it's so nice to have somebody to lean on and, like, that's another reason. Not just childhood, but also adulthood.

My mom just went. We had gone through that with, like, her mother before she passed. And it was like my mom was the only one.

Yes. Okay, so you get it.

And it's like, I felt so awful for her watching her. I'm like. Because with my siblings, I'd be like, my brother take her, my sister take her at times.

How big is your family?

I have two older siblings, and I'm the youngest.

Oh, nice. Yeah, the youngest girl. That's so nice.

But I, like, I felt that for my mom watching that. So I feel for you. In your book, when you talk about your mom getting sick, I was like.

Damn, it's just you. It's just you.

Also, in high school, your father was a teacher at your fucking high school. Can't even imagine.

I know.

What was that like?

So I, like, begged my parents I did not want to go to his school. I remember the first day of high school, my eyes were super swollen because I was leaving all my friends. Everybody I had known in middle school and elementary school went to one high school, which was kind of. It was. They're both in the same district, but one was, like, the, like, big football team cheerleader. And then the one my dad taught at was a little bit further and was there was, like, a skate team and a surf team. No football team. Like, everyone listened to, like, David Bowie and, like, biggie and, like, smoked pot.

Got it.

Instead of, like, drink handles. I mean, everything was happening, but you know what I mean? It was just a little bit more, like, indie. Yeah. And I was terrified. And my dad had taught there for so long, so he had, like, this big reputation. Everybody called him mirata, which is how I got the nickname Emratta. And, yeah, I was so scared, but he was pretty cool about giving me some space. It was actually the other teachers who were terrible. They'd see him at lunch and be like, Emily was 15 minutes late to class today. And, you know, then he would be like, should I say something to her? Should I? Whatever.

Did you ever get in trouble in high school? Like, what was your biggest punch?

I never got caught in high school. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't, like, a terrible kid, but I definitely, like, did a lot of, like, broke the rules, skip class, whatever. But, yeah, I had a lot of, like, experiences where I was very close to getting in trouble and didn't got it. Okay. That's very. And, like, bless up, honestly. Thank you.

Honestly.

I mean, I don't know. Some part of me, it's like, maybe it would have been better. I would have been safer if I had gotten caught. But, yeah, you learn a lot. It is what it is. You learn a lot.

Your mom is stunning.

Yeah.

How do you think her experience as a beautiful woman in the world impacted you?

Mother daughter relationships are just this sort of really sensitive, crazy thing. And I feel like it's something you talk about with your closest friends, and you hope that they never repeat, and they don't talk about the more complicated aspects because you also adore your mom. I don't care who you are, even if your mom is a terrible person, there's a part of you that's your mom. And becoming a mom, I understand where that comes from. Physical. I was really interested in, like, the lessons that our moms teach us as women about the way we look. So my mom grew up in a family that was very, like, you should never say thank you when you're told that you're beautiful. You didn't do anything to deserve it. There was, like, kind of a shame around being attractive, and the whole thing was like, you need to work extra hard to kind of, like, prove yourself. I hit puberty pretty young and got boobs. Like, before I even knew what sex was. I had boobs and basically looked like a woman, but was totally not. And, of course, I'm sure you had the same experience where you're going to middle school and, you know, middle school teachers are snapping your bra strap and just being, you know, dress code.

Like, I'd have to put on the. Because, like, an inch of my midriff was showing, and she was very anti that. She was like, fuck those people. Like, you should never feel ashamed. But in some ways also, I think she felt like beauty was a way for me to be powerful because I think she had experienced so much shaming. It felt like a way for her to make me feel special and to protect me. I had an ex boyfriend, and his mom said to me one time, very casually, she only had her son. And she was like, yeah, if I had had a girl, I would have talked to her about weight, and I would have made sure she stayed thin. And I was, like, outraged. My instant feeling was like, first of all, your son's not even in that good of shape. Like, screw you. And then I started thinking about it, and I was like, oh, that's because she thinks that's loving her daughter. Because she knows that if her daughter's considered attractive in the world, she might have a better life. I think there was a little bit of that.

I think that's really interesting when you talk about it with your mom. Cause, like, having this put on you, then this overemphasis on your looks. I'm interested to know, like, how did that affect your self worth at a young age? Like, did you. You were clearly, obviously hyper focused then on your looks because your mother is.

I mean, I was and I wasn't. I just. I think there was also a part of me that was, like, icky. Like, I don't want that, you know? And I think that I kind of write about that in the book, too. Like, there was a weird part of me that pushed back but also had this, like, sense of pride about it. I guess the best way to describe it is that, you know, especially being an only child, it really made me feel special and it made me feel very loved to be like, you know, in a public high school and be modeling and people be like, oh, did you see Emiratis? Whatever. And I'd be like, I'm cool, you know, totally. And then also, like, in high school, this sort of. At the same time, it wasn't just about how my parents sort of, you know, were, like, hyped that I was getting into this world that was sort of glamorous. It was also that I had money in a way that, like, none of my friends did. Everybody was, like, working at sandwich shops or, like, american apparel, making minimum wage, and I'd go to LA and shoot, like, a lookbook once a month and get what they were making in a month.

And it was amazing, you know? So I started to really love that, too.

When was the first time that you became aware that other people treated you differently because of your looks?

I remember not the way I looked, but the sexiness thing, that felt way more like a thing because I feel like you don't really know why people are treating you a certain way when you're a really young kid. But people started to name it once I had boobs because they were scared for me or feeling uncomfortable. So I have this really visceral memory of I was doing theater and I was like, twelve and I had makeup on because I had been on stage. And we went to dinner, my cousin and my mom and my cousin had, like, a glass of wine and started crying, like, freaking out and was like, I see the way men look at her and it's like, not safe and da da da da. And, you know, I was embarrassed because I didn't understand that she was, like, trying to protect me.

Right.

That memory I was probably in 6th grade. And that feels like really like it happened yesterday. It gives me. I feel stressed even thinking about it right now.

I felt stressed reading the book when I remember the scene where you're like, you're not the scene your life when you have.

I love that it reads as a scene, though. I feel like that's a complicated.

I felt like I was reading a movie.

It's.

You're in a tank top. And I think it was like your cousin left the room or something and, like, ran back in.

Cause it was.

You were left alone with the guy and she realized like, oh, fuck. Even though you're so young, don't feel comfortable leaving Emily in a room with men at this age, which is fucking crazy. Yeah.

I guess the point is that it was really mixed signals because obviously at school it was cool for the boys think that you were hot, you know, like, that was great. Like, that was amazing. That's what you wanted. And, like, you made more friends. Like, girls were nicer to you or maybe meaner too, but, like, it just gave you a certain kind of status. And then in other ways, it was deeply shameful and embarrassing and straight up scary, you know? Straight up scary. Yeah.

I remember in the book you were underage at your casting and the adults in charge looked at your photos and said, now this is the look. This is how we know this girl gets fucked. We always know which girls are having sex by their pictures. How did you feel when people were making those comments about you?

I mean, that I was a little bit older. I was probably 16. And, I mean, it was the same thing, right? Like, I was like, oh, wow. Like, they're pointing out a picture because I guess, like, it's a good thing and like, I can be sexy, but then also felt like I'm so called out and humiliated and embarrassed and like, dude, 16.

Yeah. Saying that to you?

Yeah, of course. Now. No, listen, now in retrospect, totally. Totally. But at the time, I was like, are we. Is this cool? I just didn't know what to make of it.

That moment. I wanted to give you a hug in a virtual way. Cause I'm like, I agree. I wouldn't have known. What the fuck? Cause you're not able to decipher. Like you said. Is this a good thing?

Yeah.

Or is this so wildly inappropriate?

So wildly inappropriate.

And I'm here to do a job and you're 16 also.

Yeah. And I was with one of my girlfriends, too, who was also modeling. So it felt like this really weird, like, moment of like, oh, like, is she better than me? Like, they didn't say that about her. Is she better than me? Or am I better than her because I have this fuckable look, right? I mean, it was weird. I didn't even, like, think about that experience. A lot of the things in the book were not things that I, like, talked about until I was writing. And I was like, oh, yeah, I remember that happen. You know, it's strange.

Dude, that's what I was gonna ask you of. Like, did you talk to anyone about these things?

No, not really. I mean, I had some really good girlfriends in high school who, like, they helped a lot. Yeah. But I was too embarrassed. And also, like, honestly excited because I thought, I'm modeling. Like, I'm at this big agency. It felt like something maybe was wrong with me or something, if you know what I mean. Yeah.

Like, I could see people being like, okay, Emily, like, I'm going through my awkward thing, right?

Like, yeah, it's hard.

So many people look at you. Hot chick, perfect life, perfect instagram, perfect body. And with this book, I truly believe you're blowing that shit up.

Good.

You are. It's an amazing book.

Thank you.

I couldn't put it down. I finished it in two days.

Oh, my God. Thank you. It's really, really nice. It's so nice. Wow. Thank you.

Chapter one is titled blurred.

Well, now it's chapter two.

You changed it.

Yes, I did. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Wait, can you tell me why you decided to do that?

Well, because blurred lines, what we're about to talk about, is, like, something that I didn't want to write about at all. I feel like I've spent my entire career trying not to be the girl from that video. So to just open up that can of worms and be like, let's talk about it, went against every instinct that I had. I'm still going against every, like, even talking about it right now. I'm like, okay, yeah, no, I'm glad we're bringing it up. You know what I mean? Because the truth is, the reason that I wrote about it is because it was something that I had just completely put into a certain category and box and thought about and talked about in one way and didn't even, like, fully remember the experience, because I just was like, no, no, no. It's this. It's that. It's whatever. And once I started to kind of be like, wait, maybe things have been actually a little more complicated than I've always wanted to believe they were, that's when I remembered this situation and experience and then was like, wow. That was why I initially had it first in the book, and then, like, final last minute, like, we're talking day.

It was supposed to go to the printers. I just had this thought of, like, somebody walking into a bookstore and seeing my name and being like, okay. My body. All right, this girl. I know who she is. And then they open the first chapter, and they see blurred lines. They're just gonna be like, of course. Okay. And the book isn't that. It's not a celebrity memoir. It's a bunch of essays about a lot of different ideas. And I just want. Wanted to give myself that shot with that person.

So it's so fucking powerful that you wrote about it. Thank you.

Well, hopefully, people will still like it, even though it's second in the book now.

But listen, when I read it. Cause, guys, I got an advanced copy.

Yes, you did.

But it's amazing, and it's powerful, and it's your story. Emily. You found the strength to also, like, kind of badass come out with the story on your fucking terms. And in your book, like, good for you.

Thanks. Yeah. So, chapter two. Yes.

Chapter two is titled Blurred Lines.

Yeah.

You reveal that Robin Thicke assaulted you on the set of that music video. Take me through that day.

So, I mean, I think that, you know, one of the things that a lot of people don't know about the video is that it was directed by a woman. And part of the reason that I did the job was it didn't pay that much, really, in general, but it paid initially. It paid about, like, half of what I ended up getting, which was just not that much. So I got this offer for this music video, and I was like, okay, well, the money's not good enough, and I'd have to be naked in a music video. And, like, I don't even know who robin thicke is. And you know what I mean? I didn't know who he was. I thought pharrell, obsessed with pharrell when I was in middle school, thought he was, like, a God, but, you know, was like, I don't know who this is. I don't know where it's gonna go. Whatever. Anyway, they came up on the money a little bit, and this director was really cool. She's still somebody that I know, and, like, I think she's awesome. She said to me, like, it's gonna be all these women. So I got to set.

And it had this really different vibe than a lot of the jobs I was doing at that time. Usually people kind of just were like, sit over there, kind of shut up. Put on what we say. Like, don't complain about the hair and makeup. Everything is just like, you're a mannequin. Which is what I write in the book, truly just being used as a body and a face. And it wasn't like that. There were girls who were a little bit older than me being like, oh, my God, you look so cute. Do you like your outfit? And you know what I mean, right? That's why I think I dance so funny and stuff. When you're, like, relaxed with your girlfriends and you're dancing around and you just feel completely comfortable. So that was the majority of the shoot. And that's why when a lot of people would say to me, like, oh, this video is misogynistic, why did you decide to do it? Aren't you kind of embarrassed? Basically, I was like, get off my back. Fuck off. It was my choice. And I did feel powerful in that moment. And, like, guess what? Now I'm famous and, like, making more money than I definitely did then.

So how can you say that I'm not empowered, quote unquote, you know what I mean? During the day, kind of later in the afternoon, the part that I kind of. I guess I don't want to say I forgot. I would say that I just completely put it out of my mind because that also makes it sound like it was like a choice. Like, I didn't. It wasn't a choice. I wasn't like, you're just not going to remember that part. You know what I mean?

It's how people dissociate.

Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I feel like people who have way more insane things happen to them. That's a word that I would think of with that. But, yes, it probably is some type of that. And, yeah, actually, one day I was just laying in bed and went to Robin Thicke's Instagram because I think his girlfriend had gotten pregnant or something. Like, he was on E. News and I was blocked. And I was like, why am I blocked? And sat there for a second and was like, did I say something, like, in the press? And then I was like. And I remembered this moment when he was kind of drunk and he was in a little bit of a not great mood, and we were shooting by ourselves, and he put his hands on my breast really quickly. And then I think I just moved away. And Diane stopped the music, and there was this sort of weird moment, and then we kept shooting. The news actually leaked this weekend, and it wasn't my choice, which was annoying for me because the whole reason I wrote this book was to tell my story and be in control of the narrative.

But I'm also like, that's okay. And hopefully people will read the essay and get a sense of what actually I'm trying to say about it because the fact that I didn't remember that and didn't let myself think about that and was almost defiant was literally like, fuck you. I am a feminist, and I'm naked and whatever. And, yeah, I couldn't have complained in that moment. I was 21. I was an actual nobody. Like a person on a wall in a modeling agency that you could pick this girl who's maybe a little bit taller or this girl who has, like, prettier eyes or. You know what I mean? Like, it's a true, true meat market industry, you know? Yeah. So I didn't complain and I just went home. And I, like, never told anyone about it, really, except I do remember I told the director, like, oh, he blocked me. And she was like, why would he do that? And I did say, like, well, I remember what happened on set that was, like, a few years later.

And did she, like, be like, yeah, I know.

I think she didn't respond, but she did. When this leaked, she, like, talked about it and had a memory and. Yeah.

Have you looked at any of, like, the feedback yet that's come from the news or anything or you?

A little bit. And some of it is so terrible, I have to be honest. Dude, I. Yeah.

Was on Twitter last night.

Yeah.

Before this looking. And I was like, people are disgusting. I was like, first of all, there is no timeline of when someone should come out with something that happened to them. It doesn't negate what happened, whether it's a year, the day of ten years later.

I mean, also, for me, like, the reason that I didn't just, like, be like, press release, everyone. Testing, one, two, three. Like, I wanted it to be in my own words and, like, in a 5000 word essay that really explains, like, all the aspects of that day, the parts that were good, the parts that were bad, and, like, what this meant to me and why it was so defining to me and, like, sort of a huge part of, like, the evolution of my politics and beliefs. You know, I don't believe in canceling someone. I don't. I'm sure that, you know, Robin Thicke has a lot of wonderful things about him. I don't believe in good guys and bad guys. I think that, like, our world needs to understand that, like, we live in a culture that allows for men to feel like they can behave a certain way. It doesn't mean that, like, just because this person did this one thing or didn't do that one thing, they're good or bad. It's been frustrating. But I'm also like, it's okay because the book will be out there very soon.

I really respect you being as open as you were, and I think it's really amazing how detailed you got, because it shows, like, you weren't going in there for shock value. Like, this is something that fucking happened to you.

Yeah.

You haven't talked about it. Was there ever a point before the book that you were considering telling the story?

Absolutely not. And I honestly don't think. I mean, maybe if I hadn't published the book, I would have just published that essay.

Okay.

I honestly don't even think so, though, because that was one of that essay took the longest in the whole book to write. And, like, it's kind of more of one of the more simple ones in a lot of ways. I knew that the reaction that I've seen this weekend was coming. Like, I know people. I knew that people were gonna be like, she was naked, like, in a music video. Why she waited so long? Did it all the same things, actually. I had a male journalist be like, so, like, this is gonna come out, and what do you think the consequences will be? And I was like, for me or for him? And he was like, for him? And I was like, uh huh. Okay, definitely there's consequences for me. Like, people think that have all kinds of assumptions about me because this news is out. I also had somebody be like, last night. Be like, you are so brave. Thank you for coming forward. And I was like, that's not also not it. Right, right.

I'm not. It's telling my fucking story.

Yeah.

What was your relationship to the song when it came out?

Verse.

Like, now.

So, interestingly, if I was at a wedding or at a bar and it came on, I mean, it was also one of those things where everyone in the bar would be, like, pointing at me, our big moment, like, you'll never believe who was at the bar. And da da da. So that's probably also what ended up happening, because I would always be like, oh, no. And I would go to the bathroom or whatever. I don't know if that's what it was or if there was a little part of me that was remembering just the experience in some way and feeling something, because I definitely did. When I would see Robin Thicke's name or, you know, I also had to talk about it all the time, and I was very like, man, I just showed up for work one day, and now I'm defending lyrics that I didn't even pay attention to. I was 21, and, you know, whatever. So, yeah, that was my relationship with it. It kind of evolved into that. Now. I don't. I mean, like, you know what? It's catchy. Like, yeah, good. Like, good. Like, everybody enjoy it. Like, I don't know what to say.

You know what I mean?

No, that's. I can imagine. Like, every fucking time you're at a bar, you're like, I'm leaving. The minute it plays, you're like. Because it's like.

But it's also been who? Like, it's. It's 2013 to me. That feels like 1000 years ago. Yeah.

Have you heard from Robin Thicke since that photo shoot?

I actually haven't. Okay. Okay.

It seems like with this book, chapter after chapter, you're bravely discussing your experience dealing with men, treating you like an object. Do you feel like you've been combating that your whole life?

I do. And you know why I feel like I've been combating it my whole life is because it also had its serious advantages. Being treated like an object got me my career. It's probably why a lot of people are going to read my book. Like, that's the. I guess, what I want for people to take away. Like, I am not saying to any young girl, don't capitalize or work it. Commodify your image. Commodify your body. It's definitely one way to succeed in a certain way in this world. It also means all these other things that I'm writing about. Like, that's the truth. It's complicated.

It's very complicated. I think it was like, charlize Theron was like, people are insane if they say that looks don't matter. Like, let's all just be real. Let's just put it on the table.

And so, especially for women, like, hello, flat out. I mean, I just. I like that girls now who are, like, a little bit younger than me are just very open about that. That was not true for when I. When I was, like, on, you know, trying to build a career, people be like, don't post that on instagram. And I was like, yeah, but, like, this is how I'm, like now, making money. And people are kind of, like, rolling their eyes and also judging me for it. And I feel like that's changed a little bit, which is really great. So I'm just like, okay, let's be clear. Like, that's just. That's facts, you know?

Facts.

Yeah.

How do you define feminism? It's a loaded.

Oh, my God.

I know. We could be here all day.

Yeah. I used to feel like, okay, let me tell you. Like, I would tell you it was about choice. I would tell you about, you know, use the word empowerment, which, like, if I. To hear that one more time, I might lose my mind. I mean, listen, it's real. I use it in the book. But also, I can talk about what I know feminism isn't, which is the power dynamics that exist in our culture and our world are often unspoken, but they're evident in very big and small ways. It's evident in the. You can go on a drink for a drink with a guy, and it shows up in little ways, and maybe you can't put your finger on it, but there's something about their attitude and, like, how little they have at stake that, like, you know what that is? Do you know what I mean? They have a little bit more power. They don't. They could take your leave. This interaction in a different way. My career was based off being attractive to men, which, you know, I've done pretty good. You know what I mean? Like, it's not bad. But that also, I think, like, points to some power structures that are in place.

You know, you wrote about how you've.

Capitalized on your looks in this patriarchy that we live in. I have, too, like we just said. But you've written about the internal struggle that you've had in managing the emotional and your mental health around. Like, I know this is helping my career, but also, like, at times, feeling weird inside about it and maybe guilty, like, for someone who's not you or hasn't experienced this. How do you describe that battle within yourself?

My best friend is single right now. I don't know. This might be totally wrong, and I could be, like, going in the wrong direction. But, you know, she's been single through COVID, and she's kind of like, gwen's still gonna get her groove back, you know? And she's like, I don't know. There's just, like, I go on these dates, and I have drinks, and I just don't feel like playing into the bullshit at all. She's like, I just am kind of like, here I am. Did you watch white Lotus?

Yes.

When Jennifer Coolidge is like, here's the core of the onion. It kind of was that vibe, you know, because she was just like, I don't want to have to, like, seem like I don't care. Like, I don't want to have to play any of those games. So it's not totally the same, but it's a little bit like that. Except this is like when I'm playing those games and, you know, taking the check from the guy that's a little bit of a creep. But, like, also could, you know, he has a director friend who could, you know, this was. Most of my twenties was, like, hoping that someone was going to, like, like me enough to tell their friends that I'm great and then I'll get this part in this movie and blah, blah, blah. And not just great, but, like, flirty and, like, cool and smart, but, like, not too smart that she would, like, come after you or. You know what I mean? Yeah, I used to do that a lot, and it just made me feel really bad in the long run. And I'm 30, and I just feel like that has left, been left behind in my twenties.

What do you say to people, I guess, who don't understand? Cause I feel like this is like, what you've lived is like that you can be sexy and you can be, like, a raging feminist. Those two can live together in one.

Yeah, well, I write about this in the book. I wish that I didn't feel. I'm sure you have this, too. You're done. This amazing deal. You have your podcast and you still have a lot. You want to prove to people. I feel that way all the time. I'm like, I want people to take me seriously as a writer and a thinker, and there's just some people who are just never going to do that. And I kind of, I guess, accepted that. But also totally not because I wrote this damn book and published it. And, like, listen, the reason I did that was because I have something to prove. I want people to understand that I'm not just a body.

Right, yeah, I've had that. So in my career, like, I built this initial brand off of knowing what was gonna sell.

Yeah.

Now, at times, looking back, like, there was a lot of feminist roots within. Call her daddy at the beginning because it was like, I know how to get a guy. Like, if you want the answer, I'll literally give it to you. And it may not be coming off, like, but I'm playing the game because I'm recognizing the world that we live in. And some may say, well, then you're appealing to the male gaze.

But also even not appealing to the male gaze is reacting to the male gaze.

Yes.

We're all playing the game. I have friends who wear men's clothes and are super boyish and only hang out with dudes and are like, that's their thing. They're also playing the game. They're just taking it a different angle.

I would love to hear your opinion. Have you seen the fucking thing about pick me girls on TikTok?

Oh, yes, I have. Yes, I have. Yes, yes.

And I guess pick me girls. I'm sort of trying to hone in on the definition, but it's like, apparently, it's, like, women that do certain things, maybe by putting other women down to appeal to men.

Like, oh, I never wear makeup. Yes, I've seen them. Yes.

But I'm also, by women, pointing out women, and they're labeling them as pick me girls. Now we're just pitting women against women again.

Okay. So I always feel like this is what it comes down to, because, of course, that is so annoying. We all know those girls, and we're like, okay, you're. You know, I just will say to people sometimes, like, I'll say to a friend or whatever, like, she's just not a girls girl. And that's exactly what I'm referencing. It's when you just know that they, like, actually want to, like, skewer your head off and, like, hope you die. And you're like, okay, well, cool. Like, fun hanging out. You know what I mean? So, okay, I get why the instinct is to be like, that's what this is. I even remember the first one I saw. I was like, damn, so real. Like, I know that girl for sure. That being said, of course girls do that. They want the dude. They want to feel special. We all kind of do some kind of version of that, whether or not it's that obvious or if it's the complete opposite of that, which is like, I don't give a fuck. Whatever, right? So why are we always asking women to adjust instead of saying, okay, this is the system we work in.

This is the framework that we're in. I mean, my relationship to other women is so complicated. I catch myself all the time, like, comparing myself, and it's whack. But that's what we've been trained to do. Instead of being like, okay, what's going on here? Like, why are we being this way? You know?

I feel a sense of obligation with my platform to be like, okay, let's just call it as real as we can. Like, the girl that then is on TikTok making the video about another girl being a pick me girl. You're. Yes. You may think you're calling her out for, like, appealing to the male gaze, but you're also just calling out a woman that's doing nothing to you. And you're like, name calling, and it's like, instead.

And she's just trying to, like, do her best in the system. So why are you trying to bring down. Is that gonna fix anything?

Right. Instead of shaming them more. Yeah, let's find a way to almost, like, bring them through that.

Yeah. And bring everybody in.

Yes. I did an episode two weeks ago where I admitted to getting caught photoshopping a picture on my Instagram.

That was brave.

Have you ever photoshopped a photo of your on your Instagram?

I definitely have photoshopped. But, like, duh.

Right, exactly. That's why I was like, in my episode, I'm like, like, everyone knows it's happening.

But I remember the first time somebody showed me facetune. It was a group pic, and I was like, oh, I hate it. My leg looks big. And someone was like, oh, let me show you. This will change your life. Whatever. I have stopped doing it, though. Oh, good. Yeah. I mean, listen, it's hard because it's like, also people get plastic surgery. I'm a little bit. I don't know if I blame people for photoshopping also because it's the same reason that you get, like, okay, you can get a boob job, which is real in real life, or you just make your boobs bigger on Instagram, like, on Facetune or whatever. I don't know.

Yeah. I think it's a really confusing topic because I think we've all agreed, like, Instagram isn't real. It's a curated version of a perfect life that we're creating.

Filtered. Whatever. Yes.

So it's like, what's the difference between using the dog fucking filter with the.

Ears or, like, I mean, also, like, magazines have been editing photos forever, so. Yeah, I mean, I just don't know. Like, I don't know how I feel. I personally don't feel right about it. It feels like a lie. And I'm just like, I don't want to lie. It's so exhausting. Yes, it's so exhausting. But also, I make sure to find good light when I take a selfie. Do you know what I mean? So is that a lie?

You know what? It's just a slippery slope. We all need to take a lesson from you. How the fuck to get a perfect selfie? I completely was relating to your story in the book where you're like, I'm on fucking vacation with my man.

Oh, yeah.

And I am scrolling. I post a photo and I can't stop looking like, like, how many likes? It's addicting. I recently turned off my likes and my comments. Is that something you would ever do with your career? Like, can you even do that?

Yeah, I mean, I've thought about. I think I've turned. There were a couple pictures, like when I first had my son and I was at home and I was. I had decided to share them with the world and I just was like, you know what we're not gonna do? We're not gonna let people, like, have opinions that I can then easily check. Like, I'm not doing that. So I think it's like a case to case situation. But does it feel better to have them on?

I feel liberated. I literally feel like a different human because I find myself spending way less time. Like, I've been posting more too. I post it interesting and I like, bye bye. Like, I can't tell you how powerful it's felt being like, damn, no one can comment on this photo. I go and like it once I post it. Cuz why wouldn't you like your own photo?

Right?

I love. I'm done.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's like, I don't. I don't know. I think there's just a lot of negativity and I love all the hype at times.

Yeah.

But there is something to be said about, like, don't allow your, like, your self worth to literally be predicated on the amount of comments and likes you get. It's intoxicating, of course.

Of course. And then it's more complicated when it's tied to your actual livelihood.

You know, if you're not making money off of instagram, like, listen to me. Turn that shit off. Like, girls were dming me after that episode being like, I only got 200 likes. And so I delete it, and I'm like, no, you liked the photo.

Keep it the fuck up. I know, but I mean, a lot of the times people literally post something to test whether or not it's a good picture of them. I mean, I feel like that's something I do. I'm like, I think I looked good. Like, did every. Does everyone agree?

The fact that also you're saying that, I think there's a lot of people listening that would be like, I feel like she would never feel that way.

Oh, my God, I feel that way still. And I'm an adult. Like, you know what I mean? Like, and I'm a professional model.

Reading the book, I was jumping out of my skin reading this chapter about the photo book situation.

Oh, yeah.

And I felt angry for you. The lack of control you had over your likeness and image is disgusting that you had to go through this. Can you lightly describe that situation and. And where you are now with it?

Interesting about that essay, is it kind of like. It's kind of like three different parts? And I had written. I hadn't written the part about the photo book and the photographer until I was actually on the plane ride back from that vacation. I write about that you mentioned, which was such a long flight because we were in the Maldives and I couldn't sleep. And you know how planes make you feel kind of crazy, but you can also sometimes have good ideas.

Oh, yeah.

I just couldn't stop thinking about this experience. It was one of the most shameful things I had in my life. Like, I felt so responsible for how things had gone down and how the public had viewed it and how under protected I had played been myself and how much I had played into things and whatever. And then I wrote that piece and was like, okay, well, that's never seeing the light of the day. I felt like I sounded so young in it, and I thought the writing was bad, whatever. And then when I was thinking about all these ideas around ownership and image, which included, I've been sued by the paparazzi for posting a picture of me holding flowers in front of my face outside of my apartment. And I've had artists make artworks of me that I then bought back myself. And then my ex boyfriend tried to kind of get it back and whatever. And then I realized, wow, this is totally what happened with this photo book. When I was. I guess I got. I was maybe 19 or 20, I was in New York, and I had just kind of come into New York.

I write in the book, like, I'd actually just lost some weight from a flu. And my agency was like, actually, like, maybe you could work in New York, which is so fucked up, but whatever, really. Oh, my God. Figured out, like, okay, it's definitely because I'm skinnier, so I'm gonna try to make that a priority. Now. You do a lot of things called test shoots, which are basically just, like, important or good photographers. Build your book, whatever. So this photographer was someone who. It was for, like, a magazine, and they were like, take a bus out to Catskills, which, again, now I would like if I had a daughter, I'd be like, you're not taking a bus anywhere to, like, a strange man's home. But at that time, I think models are taught, and I think all women are taught this on some level. Like, it's impolite to say no. Like, you know, you. The whole thing with modeling is that you trust your agent. They're in charge of your career, and that they are sort of the guiding force. And if you push back, they're like, you don't know anything about this. And, like, why are you being difficult?

There's a million girls who wouldn't be difficult. So I was very blindly following what my agency recommended because I was like, this is me giving it. I dropped out of college, and I was like, this is me giving my best shot to this career. And, yeah, I basically got up there. And his vow was very, I don't know, sketchy. Yeah, I would say, like, unimpressed by me, which made me really want to impress him.

It felt like a tactic almost that you could read into.

You're like, I don't know if it felt like a tactic at the time. Like, now looking back, I'm like, that was definitely some kind of nagging, right? But at the time, it felt like, oh, no. Like, he's not gonna like me. And I want this guy to like me for so many reasons, for personal reasons, but also professional reasons. Anyway, he ended up up serving me a lot of alcohol, to make a long story short. And the pictures were super, super sexy, like, naked, whatever, just like very kind of like they're poroids and they're very old erotic images. They feel like from, like, a dirty man's closet in, like, 1963, for lack of a better description. I was so drunk that I barely remember. Some parts of the experience was very spotty. And, you know, for me, getting drunk and losing control like that, that is, I think, the thing that I had the most shame around and also wanting to be cool and be like, oh, well, I know about photography and whatever. Anyway, there was a weird physical thing that happened in the night. Long story short, I kind of put that behind me.

The magazine came out with nine images or something like that from the shoot. And then a couple years later, after the blurred lines video and after, I think, gone girl, like, I had done a movie and stuff, people reached out to me and they were like, oh, like, you have a book coming out. Emily Ratakowski Polaroids or whatever. And I was like, what? And I realized that this photographer had put together every image, it seemed like, from the shoot into a book and was selling it in a publishing company that he had set up, like, makeshift publishing company. And I freaked out at that point. I had another type of voice saying to me, like, you do not do sexy stuff anymore. Do not do that. Your career as an actress won't happen if you continue to represent yourself that way. Which, again, I think has changed the euphoria. Girls can post bikini pics and no one's like, you're a bad actress. But at the time, it felt like it was death. So I was so freaked out about it. And basically, the long and the short of it, which is in the book, is that I couldn't do anything about it.

There was nothing to be done legally. And so I decided to go on Twitter and be like, this book was put out against my wish. I got a very similar response to what you probably saw this weekend about the blurred lines video, which was just like, she's just asking for attention. Like, you shouldn't have taken these pictures if you didn't want them to be out in the world. Basically, just everything terrible you can imagine about slut shaming, essentially. And, yeah, I really. I lost.

I was really unwell, first of all, reading it. I was unwell for you. I'm reading it and, like, I remember randomly when I was in college, I went and did a, like, a photo shoot with this guy. And I remember going to his apartment and having to change in his bathroom. And, like, the door wouldn't fully close and I close and, like, I'm trying to change. And I remember feeling, like, realizing in that moment, because I wasn't a model, I wasn't doing this often, that I was. I was like, wait, why am I alone in this man's apartment? And I'm in his bathroom that doesn't lock and I'm naked and I'm getting changed. Thank God nothing fucking happened. But, like, when I'm reading your book, the whole experience I felt for you of, like, why was he first, like, lubing you up with wine? And then it's like, you keep drinking. And so I felt the terror for you of, like, wait, something feels off, but I don't know what to do.

Yeah. And he would, like, make little comments about my body that were, like, low key, insulting, but, like, also made me, you know, again, wanna be like, no, no, no. Like, what? No, I'm good at my job. Like, I'm hot and I'm, you know.

Like, the uncomfortable comments I remember about, like, your nipples.

You were just like, what am I supposed to say to them?

So then I think for the book to come out, that's you. That's your image, and no one had signed the release in the first place.

Yes. So that was. The whole thing is, again, like, at that point, everything was like, the modeling agency handles these deals, blah, blah, blah. And so I thought, you know, I assumed that there was, like, some random thing. But again, like, I was 1920. Like, now, by the way, like, I am so, so crazy about that stuff. Partly because I had terrible experiences where I was like, I got screwed. I mean, I annoy people sometimes. Cause I'm like, wait, is there a line about this potential catastrophic situation? Because I just know, as you know, I've been burned. Yeah, well, I'm sure you know, too.

And especially if I have a male lawyer reading it, I'm like, no, no. No one over it. A fucking gay.

Yeah, my lawyer's female, I think for a reason.

For a reason.

Because it's just about a trust thing. Yeah.

To anyone also listening, I feel like all that legal shit is confusing, but.

Yeah, you.

The reason it's such a fucking issue is because you went there assuming that those photos were gonna be for one project.

Yes.

And then they ended up getting used. And you didn't make any money off of the book.

Right? $0. Yeah. And also, yes. It's literally Emily Rattikowski is the name of the book. And then he published two other volumes, maybe three other volumes. I can't remember right now. Like, it actually brought him more press, me talking about it on Twitter. But it actually brought more attention to the book, which was one of the most painful things. And I think he was, like, making a ton of money off of it. I don't know how much, but I think a good amount. And I was entitled to none of it, and I had no right to shut it down. And I guess, you know, my agent at the time basically said that maybe he had forged a signature. He provided something in the New York Times that he had, like, forged a sign that she claimed she didn't sign. But it's also one of those things where, like, I don't know, does she just not remember signing it? Because I'm sure at that point she was just signing stuff the time, like, you know. So, yeah, it's awful. Awful now with the world. Like, I feel like you don't have to be a model to be worried about this stuff, like revenge porn.

Like, we grow up now. Everybody's growing up in the age of the Internet. Like, you just, you know, I was part of the icloud hacking like it was. But that's something that can happen to anyone at any point. And, I mean, you see, like, AOC, they found, like, some, like, sort of sexy picture of her or just anyone. And it feels like this weird, like, scary thing that could happen at any point. And I really, like, have enjoyed seeing. Obviously, the OnlyFans stuff is really complicated, but the part of it that I think is interesting is the way that women are like, no, no, you can't take this from us. We own it. We are in charge. We're the ones who are going to make money off of it. This isn't going to be some dirty little secret that we're scared of signing a fucking contract.

I think back to contracts that I signed when I was younger and, like, you're young, and there's desperation of, like, I need to make this money. And I would just urge anyone. I remember I sat down with Mia Khalifa, and she was like, I basically signed a fucking contract under duress for a porn agency that I now look back and I'm like, I should not have signed that. Like, I didn't even know. Horrible, right? So it's like, I just urge anyone, like, before you sign a contract, like, if you can find anyone, if you don't have the means, like, try to find someone that has any type of legal friend that can help you out, because it's like, it's not fucking worth it.

I'm thinking about my younger self. If I heard that, I'd be like, well, yeah, easy for you to say kind of thing. And I just have to say, like, those people are going to make you feel like you're lucky and you're. This is your one chance, and that they're going to walk away unless you, like, sign it right there. And this is, like, you feel like you're not in a position. You're always in a position, and if they're going to walk away that easily, then let them, and there'll be something else else. Like, that is the truth. That is the truth. Like, I don't care who you are. That's the truth. So, yeah, I know that there's people who listen to this, I'm sure will, and I. At least as a younger person, I would have. Yeah. And I would have been, like, for sure, I guess. But, like, they don't know me. They don't know my situation. But, like, every situation, it's just true.

It's true.

Yeah.

Coming into motherhood full circle.

I love it.

Like, I'm gonna be honest. I literally got emotional. Reading the last chapter, it was so beautiful. The way you described giving birth and your relationship to your body. Has it at all changed since giving birth?

My body or my relationship to my body?

Both. No, but, yeah, your relationship to it.

A lot of the book is. And obviously, what we've even been talking about is, like, control.

Yep.

Obsessed with control, because it makes me feel safe, and it makes me feel like I'm gonna be good. When you're pregnant, you have zero control. You just wake up every day and there's a new thing happening, and you're just, like, watching it kind of that I was a little bit worried about. For me, I learned to be humbled and amazed by what my body was doing because it is so crazy that. And just understood, like, this is some ancient mechanics. Like, that's straight up what's going on, and it's bigger than me. That just brought so much. I guess it was respect.

Yeah, I know we're wrapping up the. The other thing I do think is that I almost want to vocalize because I have so much respect for you for voicing it in and writing it in your book that I don't know anyone would think is true for Emily Ratikowski is when you just talk about how you basically would dissociate from your body because it was so, like, it was in your work, your field of work. It was like you said a mannequin, and you talk about when you would have sex, you would, like, literally have to look in a mirror to, like, connect with your body. Do you feel like your relationship has shifted, or do you still feel like you're working on that?

I'm still working on it. I would be, like, lying. I mean, honestly, that last chapter was one of the hardest ones. I mean, blurred lines was definitely the hardest. This was also hard, though, partly because I was just like, I'm not writing this book to be like. And this is what I've learned, and I've come out the other side and everything's great. That's just not the reality of my experience. So I wanted to give people glimpses of moments where I do feel good, but that's not the total experience. It's still a struggle. And, you know, yeah. For me, for a long time, I thought confidence was what I was experiencing when I was actually basically disassociating.

Interesting.

Which is really weird, because I was just like. I was like, see, I'm so not scared and, like, whatever, but, yeah, I don't know. I feel like actually a lot of women can have that sometimes in experiences with men. Or just, like, when you're wearing something that makes you feel a certain way and you're like, no, I'm confident. Like, I'm chill. And then you look like, are totally not okay, and you're in a manic state or whatever.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

What is your hope for this book?

So I've thought about this.

Give it to me.

Basically, what I realized is a lot of the stuff in the book were things that I only talked about with my very close female friends that just felt too complicated, too specific, maybe. I don't know. Not, like, almost taboo or something to talk about in a larger way. There are, like, again, the power dynamics that I'm writing about, and these experiences, they're so real, and they're just our experiences. I don't know. I don't care what you do for a living, what age you are, if you're a woman, you've experienced it. So I guess my hope overall, have better relationships with women throughout our culture. Yep.

Amen. Emily Ratikowski, thank you for coming on. Call her daddy.

Thank you so much for having me. Yay.

Oh, my God. That was great.

Thank you very much. Anytime you want me to. Come on.

Maybe we'll do a part two at some point.

We'll catch up. Great. Yeah.

That was Mil.