What is up, Daddy Gang?

It is your founding father, Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy. Okay, RuPaul, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Thanks. Thank you so much for being here. I am very, very excited to talk to you. I think my fans are going to freak out. I think this collab is going to be very fun. When are you your most confident?

When I'm alone. People freak me out, People are freaky. Most people think of confidence as power or as having stuff or doing things. But I feel most confident when I'm not distracted by other people's bullshit.

Period. Would you consider yourself high or low maintenance?

Oh, I am so low maintenance. I am so low maintenance. You would not believe it. Really? How, yes. I can take care of myself. And you know what? I open my own door. I take care of myself.

Being alone with yourself, being good with yourself, and relying on yourself, it's all you fucking need.

It really is.

Okay, let's talk about your memoir. Congratulations, The House of And Meanings. I think that this book is incredible because you offer a very personal look into your childhood. You offer a personal look into early relationships and just some of the biggest struggles that you've been through in your life. So let's get into it. As a little boy, did you want to be famous? Would anyone have been surprised that you became famous in your life?

No one would have been surprised that I became famous. And did I want to become famous? It wasn't even about did I want to? I knew it was my destiny. I felt that people had pointed me out from a very early age that says, Hey, who are you? What are you doing? Hey, you. I was always different is the wrong term. It was someone that people noticed. I knew that somehow my destiny involved being out front. The truth is, I am an introvert masquerading as an extrovert, and I can do it. I can do the thing like, Hey, how are you doing? What's What's up? Hey, you know what? Is that cashmere? Oh, my God, I love cashmere. Cashmere? Not the word cashmere, where I just go on and just look like I'm being open, open, open. I know how to do it, but the truth is, my real sense is...

Just being chill.

Just being chill, yeah.

Do you get exhausted?

It can exhaust me. If I'm not working, I like to spend time alone to recharge my battery, but it can be exhausting. Now, I usually keep that hidden, tucked away, and I pretend like, Oh, my God, is that Cashmere? And I'll do the thing. But the truth is, I don't give a fuck about Cashmere. But I do that to get through life and to maintain and to get endorsement deals and to get people to like me on social and do all the stuff.

First of all, thank you for just being honest, because I think a lot of people actually will completely relate to what you're saying of like, it's fucking exhausting trying to walk into work, walk into rooms, and having to put on a façade, because at the end of the day, none of us are going to be completely the same when we walk into a room with other people than we are when we're alone. But there is a world of social currency that you need to somewhat engage in, especially if this is your career. It's like, you're right. You got to sit across from me right now, and I'm sorry, but I'm going to ask you questions about this memoir.

Listen, I do enjoy Cashmere from time to time. I can do the thing, but what most people don't know about me is that base level thing, which is, don't take any of this too seriously. Otherwise, you get yourself caught up in trouble and wars and getting your feelings hurt. I mean, it's a lot. It's a lot.

In the book, you talk a lot about your family dynamics. Can you paint the picture of what your relationship was like with your mother growing up?

I loved my mother. I love the fact that she, too, she didn't believe the bullshit. She just didn't. And unfortunately for her, I think most of that came out of world weariness. I think she didn't talk about her childhood very much, but or at all. But I have a feeling some really awful things happened to her as a little girl. She was very world weary. She didn't put up the pretense. I can do the Kashmir speak She did not at all, at all. She would cuss someone out. We could cuss in the house. I felt, growing up, my role was to lift her up, and I did. I would do my impersonations for her of Tina Turner or Gerald Dean from the Philip Wilson show. But she had a dark, dark cloud over her. I related to that. I understood it very well because If you look at the world with X-ray eyes, there is so much darkness and sadness. So I choose joy. Now, that doesn't mean that I don't recognize the darkness or the pain. But I do. I look at the darkness, but I don't stare at it. I'm going to say that again so you motherfuckers can get it.

I look at the darkness, but I don't stare because it will suck you in. And You are a powerful witch. You are a powerful. You can create whatever life you want. Life asked, What do you want me to be? Okay, I'll be that.

I also was just thinking, I may be butchering this. I remember there was this one line that you wrote about her basically saying something about, If I'm not paying their fucking taxes, why the fuck do I give a shit what they're doing?

If they're not paying your bills, pay them, bitches, no mind. That was my mother. And it's true. And it's the same philosophy as what other people think of me is none of my business.

I'm curious, though, when you talk about your mother in the book, as strong as she was, as a child, it seems like there wasn't a lot of this affection and coming to you with love. How do you think you internalize that as a child?

Yeah. Well, first of all, I put her first, and I understood what her pain was. So I guess I justified her not being that affectionate or that idea of mothering that we all think of. She was not that. In adulthood, I understood that she probably could have been more loving. But at the time, I felt empathy for her because I knew that she was in so much pain. The whole time of my childhood, she was at war with my father, and it made me feel like a diplomat. It taught me how to read the room and figure out what people needed. I knew what I could say around my father and what I could say around my mother, these warring factors, and to not incriminate one or the other. I knew how to give them what they wanted without giving too much information about my mother to my father and vice versa.

You talk about this big moment where your mom finds out that your dad was cheating on her in the book. Can you talk to me about that day? Because it was a pretty intense day.

Well, he had always been out seeing other women. But this one, I guess, this time, it just rubbed her the wrong way. And we will circle back around to the whole idea of cheating, too, because, X-ray eyes on a situation. Is cheating really a thing? I mean, come on. People do things. Men want to spread it around. It's just the animal that they are. Now, if someone promises you that all of this area here is going to be only for them, they're lying. You think? Oh, no, not think, darling. I did not think. I know for women, they're like, Oh, no. He's going to be mind-fear. It's like, Who the fuck are you fooling?

So everyone's cheating.

It's not cheating. If you say you're going to save all of this area, for one person, you are cheating on yourself. You are cheating on yourself.

Should I not get married? I'm engaged.

You get married, do whatever you want. But why would you, to the person you love the most, why would you put restrictions on them? And your best friend in the whole wide world who you love more than anyone else, why would you say, Okay, if you're presented with a situation that is so fabulous and so lovely, I don't want you to do That is like an interesting way to look at it, and I love it. You can get mad at me all you want with this philosophy. I didn't come up with it. It's just my observation, and it's true. I grew up around men, and men who are listening to this are going, yeah. They're like, Fuck, Rue. He's right. Look away. No, it's true. So, yeah, what happened with my mother and father, two people who should have never been together, he She parked the car in the garage of our house, and she poured gasoline all over the car and said, Motherfucker, I will light this bitch up. I'm five years old. My sister's, Rosie, is four or Renee and Renette are seven years older than me. We're across the street from the house looking at this scene, and the whole neighborhood is out there watching.

She's like, I will... Irving is, my father is saying, Tony, please, please don't, don't. She's got a pack of matches in her hands saying, I will do it. I'll do it. Eventually, Sister Harris, from her church, comes and talks her out of it and everything is gone. The fire trucks are there, everything. But when I think back on this scene, I'm not in my body. I'm actually like a camera on a dolly or a jib, looking at the whole scene, moving around the scene like a camera outside of body. What happens with young people, and we all do this, is we dissociate. So that the trauma of what's going on doesn't affect us on an emotional level. We separate from our bodies. We separate from our bodies. I don't remember coming back into my body until I got sober, which was right before I turned 40. I was outside of my body the whole time because it wasn't safe enough to be in there with those feelings.

When you look back at that moment, what does it make you feel for your younger self?

I feel sad for my younger self. I absolutely do.

Let's talk about your relationship with your father, because I know that you wrote that you felt very abandoned by him in moments in your life. And I'm wondering if you can just paint the picture of that dynamic and if there are specific memories that come up.

At the time, I felt abandoned by him. But through years and years and years and years of therapy, I realized he had abandoned himself. It wasn't personal. It's like reading the comments on YouTube or whatever about yourself. It has nothing to do with me. It had everything to do with him. I think I'm talking too fast. I need you to say all of that. No, this is good. One more time.

This is how fast I usually talk, so we can go as fast as you want, or we can go super slow.

People really need to understand what I just said, which is that it had nothing to do with me. Of course, as a child, I thought, he just doesn't like me. No, he didn't like himself, baby. It had nothing to do with you. Now, my ego wanted to make it about me, but no. I saw a psychic 30 years ago who said, Well, your You and your father shared past lives together. When you came into this life together, you were like, Hey, buddy, it's you. Let's party. Let's boogie. Hey, we're going to rule the school. But he could not see me. I spent so much time saying, Wait, you need joy? I'll give you some of my joy. You need a reminder? Let me remind you of who you are. Could not see it. Through therapy, I realized, well, he couldn't see it because For a person to become present in this moment, and this is true of every human on this planet, to be present in this moment would invite you to recognize how much pain you're in right now. So we distract ourselves with whatever we can get our hands on to not experience the depth of pain that we are in.

But to move forward in this life, you have to walk through that fire. You have to walk through that pain to get to the other side. There's no other way.

There isn't. And I think it can take people a lifetime. Some people never get to that point. Some people engage in therapy And then they're like, Oh, fuck, I don't want to do this. But it's like, you have to open it up to actually see what's in there to then get through it, to get on the other side. You're right. And I think about this moment that you write about in the book where you would sit outside your house on the steps and you're waiting for your dad and you're waiting for your dad. And I think you're so right, where so many people can relate, probably, that are listening to, yearning from their parents for something that they want. And you're so right. It had nothing to fucking do with you. He wasn't not showing up because he's like, God, I hate Rue. I don't want to see his face when I pull up to the house. But you're sitting there being like, he didn't come home because of me. And it's like, it literally had nothing to do with you. That's right. But that's hard to understand at such a young age. So you just internalize it like, damn, my dad fucking hates me.

He's abandoned me. I'm nothing. What's wrong with me? That's right. How did your relationship with your father inform the romantic relationships and men you ended up pursuing and choosing?

Well, obviously, I I never got that validation from my father. So, of course, playing the role of Ruth's father today is so and so. And it's like the exact replica Charming, charismatic, good-looking, but not available. I would replay this thing over and over, relationship after relationship, until I ultimately met George, who was someone who chased me. Chaced me, and I didn't know what to do with it. I said, Okay, so let me... Okay, what's that going to look like? I'm so used to being the chaser. To allow someone to chase me, it changed everything. It changed everything. And of course, I had to get in touch with my ability to love myself.

Even just to accept it, even you saying, which we're going to get to, when you met your husband, it must have been such a strange feeling to accept a love that you had never experienced. Your mother being distant, your father not showing up for you. To then have someone pursuing you. You're like, what the fuck is going on? This feels good, but what's off? And so in a strange way, a lot of the times, the thing we're used to, that is what we gravitate towards because it's the norm, even if it's fucking toxic and even if it's unhealthy. And it's like, what the fuck?

Preach, bitch. Preach. It's fucked.

Testify. You're like, I love this. And it's like, but you watched your father abuse your mother. You watched it. So as fucked up as it is, well, you never saw a healthy relationship. So how would you know not to be scared when someone is just being loving, being nice, coming to you, pursuing you? You're not begging for attention and affection and love. You're like, the fuck is going on? Run. Something must be off. Is it just a genuine? Is he lying? Is he using me? You spiral, and then you run back to what you're used to, and you're like, how do we end the cycle? Which you eventually did. But let's pause. We need to stay in the 20s. We need to stay in the 20s. Then we'll get to the husband.

But what you're describing is an abused child who's taken away from an abusive home leaves there and longs to go back home because that is what they know. And oppressed people take on the characteristic of their oppressor. And how do you break that cycle? You have to hit some type of rock bottom to get to that place. And it is the most difficult thing you will ever do in your entire life.

When you talk about these early relationships that you went through before you found your husband, you say it felt like you would absorb your parents' toxic behaviors and patterns. Fucking relatable. I understand you would go for people that weren't available. But take me to a moment in a room with someone. What were you putting up with? And then you would pause and be like, Am I literally replicating what my fucking parents did? How am I here?

Well, the biggest offense is not trusting your instinct and your intuition about something. This is something they don't tell you about what getting old gives you is that you learn to trust your intuition about a situation, a person. And when you are somewhat hypnotized by a person, like I was early 20s, All of that intuition, you push it to the side because you think, This is exactly what I need. This is what I need. It looks like the validation and love I was supposed to get from my father or from my mother. But that never works. And in fact, the only validation you ever need, really, is from your adult self to your child.

It's so fucking hard to break the cycle. I want to talk about your 20s. You became this well-known performer in the club scene. I know you referenced, I was dissociating most of my life until I got sober. Let's talk about when you weren't sober, taking the partying too far, indulging so heavily in these moments. Can you talk to me about your club life back then?

Yeah, well, listen, I have no idea. I used for 30 years. I have no The first 20 were a blast. I had a great time. It was his last 10 that were pure hell. It had a blast. It had a blast until it didn't work anymore. You know what? Thank God for the drugs and alcohol because it saved my life. It gave me a layaway plan, a deferment plan, until I was strong enough to deal with what was going on. Thankfully, I found a 12-step program that really, really, really helped me so much that I am in love with. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for that. I would not be here if it wasn't for that. The success I have today. I wouldn't have that if it weren't for this 12-step program because it takes you through a process of walking back to the scene of the crime and forgiving yourself and giving you the tools, the processing tools to deal with all the trauma of what life is. We all live with so much trauma. I feel that not just America, I think the whole world needs to hit rock bottom before we can pull ourselves up because there are two ways to learn.

You can learn intellectually, or you can learn by hitting your head on the corner of the thing. Mama said, Rue, don't touch that stove. Now, if I were smart, I would have thought, Well, Mama's been around for a while. She probably knows the right thing. I'm going to touch the stove. That's who we are. We touch the stove.

We are bashing our heads against everything, and I agree with you. I think there's going to have to be a rebuild moment. I appreciate the way you just explained, though, the drugs and the alcohol and what they were for you, because I think people that haven't had hardship in their life are the people that are like, why don't you just leave the abusive relationship? Why don't you just leave? Just stop. And it's like the pain that you're describing and the pain that people go through when they do dissociate, there is a level where you actually can't reengage with your reality until you're fucking ready. It's like how I always talk with friends who have been through certain things. They're like, should I get into therapy? I'm like, when you're ready, not because I'm saying, you really need it. Of course, you know you need it. But when are you ready to actually accept it instead of everyone shoving you in the door? Go to rehab, go get help. No, no. When do you know you're ready? Everyone has a different threshold. Everyone needs to go at a different pace. But the judgment around people that aren't ready, I think we need to have some fucking grace because it is not that fucking linear and simple.

It's just not. It's not. And people are just fucking assholes about it. I'm curious, when you look back at that time in your life, as fun as it was, did you have any self-sabotaging tendencies back then at all?

Well, the only Obviously, drugs and alcohol put you in situations that could be highly dangerous. I was in those situations, really, mostly, aside from the drugs, that was with people that I was attracted to and trying to relive the situation with my father, and I guess, really, with my mother, too. Trying to find a situation that would feed my soul. I was looking for soul food, and I was looking for a way to fill that void when ultimately that void had to be filled by me.

You talk about how you, for a while, were quite uncomfortable with the idea of being wanted, being desired. What types of things were you doing to avoid being seen sexually?

Oh, listen, I didn't have to do anything to not be seen sexually. Here's the thing. I've always been an oddball. I don't fit into anyone's description of what in the sexual hierarchy, right? The sexual hierarchy is, oh, he's a daddy. Oh, you're a twink. There's a whole list of those things. I never fit into any of those things until the first time I got into drag, people, men, or straight men went, Oh, you're that. It scared me. It shocked me because I'd never I've never experienced that... What's the word where you're being objectified? Objectification. I'd never experienced that before because I'd never fit into the sexual hierarchy of what-la-la. When I got into drag, just as a fluke, my band was doing this thing, and we got in, and said, Oh, let's get into drag. Okay. I couldn't believe the attention that I got. I wasn't doing high glam drag. I was doing… I didn't shave my my hairy chest. I'd smeared lipstick, and it was like punk rock drag. But I noticed a difference in the energy I was getting.

Let's talk Talk about George, because it almost made me tear up when you teared up at the very beginning of this interview, you just mentioned his name and you got teary-eyed. And I don't know what comes up for you when you even just saying it.

He's lovely. He's a lovely person. He's grumpy. He's angry. He's all of those things. But he's lovely. He really is. He's a lovely person. And I like him more than anybody else.

I mean, I think that's great, too, because you obviously love being alone. So someone who loves being alone so much, I'm very similar. I sit here and I perform all day, and then I need to get the fuck home. Don't fucking talk to me. Don't look at me. And my fiance just knows, let her be alone. But I do appreciate his company, which makes me know, oh, I actually fucking like him. I actually like you. What was it about him when you met him that you remember being like, this man is different other than him pursuing you?

Well, it was the fact that he was kind and that I trusted him. I trusted him with my feelings. Because growing up in between two warring factors. My parents were so obsessed with their own psychodramas that it wasn't a safe place for me to feel nurtured. You mentioned that my father's weekends with my sister and I, he was meant to pick us up that morning, and we'd sit on the porch and wait for him all day. When I say all I mean, sitting on that porch all day, he would never show up waiting for him. We'd say, Rosie and I would say, Next car is going to be Daddy. Next car is going to be Daddy. We'd do that all day long. I didn't trust my parents with my feelings. I would mother my mother with joy and bring her up and all that stuff. When I met George, I could tell from the moment I met him that he was lovely and kind, and I could trust him with my feelings, that he wouldn't hurt my feelings. He has never hurt my feelings, never. My mother said to me, Rue, You're too goddamn sensitive.

I was five years old at the time. Five. She also said, Rue, you reminisced too much. I was five. I have five years of reminiscing. But it was insight into her because years later, as an adult, I I learned that she was actually trying to warn me to not do what she did. It was very telling about her that she was too sensitive and that she reminisced too much. Interesting. That didn't occur to me. I only got that probably 10 years ago where I went, Oh, that's what that was. Anyway, George was so open and not secretive. He was just open. In fact, I tell this story at one point when we first started dating, he asked me, Hey, can I floss your teeth? Fuck, no, you can't floss my teeth? I never heard of it. Why? Why did he want to floss your teeth? Because he wanted to be that intimate with me. And I never forgot that because it just... That Someone would want to fuck. What?

But now when you look back on saying that, how does that make you feel when you reflect on him saying that to you?

It makes me feel like he wanted to not only be inside me, but He wanted to be a part of me. That level of intimacy I had never experienced before. It was a signal to the child who It lives inside of me that, It's okay. You can relax with him. You can relax with him. He's not going anywhere. In fact, we split up. When we got sober together, we split up. Still couldn't shake him. We'd still call three times a day. And ultimately, we did get back together again and eventually got married.

I want to go through that, too, because it's a very breaking with someone that you then end up with is rare. I feel like it takes a really special bond. But just going back to what you just said, it's so inspiring to see the trauma you went through and the partners you would choose that were replicating just what you watch with your mother and father. Then finding George, it's interesting to see, even the way you just spoke, you got calmer, it got more still, you could be yourself. In what ways once you started to engage in a healthy relationship, how long did it take you to actually trust and be yourself? Because I'm sure there are people listening to, Rue, I fucking hope to God one day get to where you're at. How long did it actually take once you met him to be like, trust, don't bring up my old shit. Don't put on him what I've done in other relationships. That's a lot of fucking work.

Yeah. No. And don't trust me. The beast still came out in our relationship and my distrust. But soon enough, he would put me at ease. It takes time. And even the time that we were apart, we both realized that there's no one I like more. The chances of me meeting someone who I felt that comfortable with and that much myself with is very rare. When we're young, we think, Oh, I've got all the choices in the world. When you look back, I'm 63, you look back and you go, There were very few situations where people had all their shit together. Not shit together, bank accounts and all that stuff. I'm not talking about that. But knew enough about themselves to not hurt you and project their own hurt out at you, which is, I think, what my parents did. I can forgive them now. There's a book called Toxic Parents that really helped me a lot by Dr. Susan Forward that really walked me through the steps of overcoming the trauma of my parents.

I think it's also incredible because sometimes we run away from things that make us feel good, depending on, again, our trauma of this can't be this good. And I think with George, it's It's so clear that although you were both going through things, which I do want to talk about, with addiction, you knew at the core how you felt around this human being, and that is something that lasts forever. How someone makes you feel, you never shake that. And you did break up. Can we talk about that just a little bit of how did you decide? Because it was mainly you that did decide, we need to put this on pause.

Well, it was mutual. What happened was we had this condo in Florida, in Miami, that George was redoing. I learned that he had been addicted to crystal meth, which is the devil. I put him into rehab and then brought him to a 12-step program, and I went with him to support him in this 12-step program, only to realize this was for me I need this. I realized, too, that I had been living my Fame and fortune through George, vicariously through George. I realized that if I am living through him and he's in this much trouble. That's how much trouble I'm in.

You were living your Fame through George. What do you mean by that?

Well, at five, when I had dissociated and separated, became a camera on a jib, I realized I had not come back into my body because it was not safe. It didn't feel comfortable for me to feel my feelings firsthand. Got it. I could feel my feelings through him. We'd be flying to Düsseldorff on Elton John's private jet, and he'd be like, Oh, my God, this is great. So I'd be happy because it informed me. This is great. This is great. But I I could not feel my feelings firsthand.

You're looking for the outside validation of what is going on here. Like, Oh, this is great. Great. This is great. Sure. For sure, George. That's right. What interesting.

Yes. And it wasn't until I got sober that I was able to bring my feelings and my camera in through my own eyes.

But when you looked at George and you recognize he was addicted to crystal meth, that is also when you said, I also have an addiction problem.

Oh, yeah. No, I'd always used. I started when I was 10 years old. I started smoking weed when I was 10. Listen, Alex, it was a different time. I'm not judging. It was San Diego, California. It's a different thing. It's not the way people think of it today.

Do you remember when you tried your first hard drug?

Yes. I was probably 13. And back then, there was something called Red Devils, and I took a Red Devil pill. I don't know where I got it. I don't know.

What was it like? What is the facts?

I don't remember if it was an upper or a downer. I really do not remember, but I do remember it was around that time. But I wasn't afraid of drugs. I never shot up or anything. But also, the big thing was that I never had any money. I was at the mercy of whoever I was around. Then And in my 20s, I shouldn't say this, but I'm going to. In my 20s, I dropped acid every weekend throughout my 20s. Every weekend, four hits of acid every weekend. Have you ever dropped acid?

I have never done it.

What does it feel like? Well, I'll tell you. Okay. Well, we're going to be... Listen, you're an adult. We're like, Don't do acid. Yeah, whatever. But it's fucking incredible. It's incredible because it was the proof I had that this world is an illusion, that everything you think you know about solid objects or what people are is a lie. I had that suspicion before I dropped acid. When I dropped acid, it was like, Yes, this is exactly. The people who freak out, and I used to drop it, and some people would freak out. You know what that means? They were like, Oh, my God. Those are the people who... It never occurred to them that this is an illusion. From the day I was born, I thought, This is an illusion.

So the minute you dropped acid, you were like, damn right. Yeah.

Here we go. It lifts the veil of the illusion, the fantasy that we collectively agree to in our Their lives.

When you got so famous and you're in New York and people know who you are, were you at all ever paranoid that people were going to be like, RuPaul is fucked up or there's something... You know what I mean? I do.

I was downtown famous in my 20s, but I didn't get world famous until I was 32. And I had stopped doing chemicals. I was just smoking weed then. And then in my late 30s, I was doing a little bit of Coke, a little bit too much Coke, but really in private with friends. So I would never be... I would be stone. I was always stoned from I was a Waken Baker.

I'm curious, you're so famous, and how does that make you feel?

It doesn't feel any different from when I was five years old, and the kids in the neighborhood said, Oh, you're a sissy. I was always pointed out. I was always singled out and said, You're something different. I didn't know what the connotation. I didn't know that was... It didn't have a sexual... I thought, Oh, okay, at five years old. But my point is that I always felt singled out that there was something going on with me, and I had to learn to accept that. So does it feel any different from back then? No, it doesn't. It feels like I have a purpose that I came here to do, and it's part of it.

Because I just am curious, because knowing that a lot Both performers, I think, are introverts that become extroverts on stage when they're performing. I know a lot of musicians that are like, Oh, my God, bitch, when I get on fucking stage, it's a complete alter ego. That's not me. I go home and I'm in my PJs and make up off, and not focused on that persona. But do you ever have moments or have you ever had a moment in your career where you've resented the persona you've built?

No, because I take that shit off. It's a part of me, but it's not who I am. And thankfully, drag is so brilliant because it's like a wink, wink, nudge, nudge at the façade that we were talking about, that being on tripping breaks through that. Drag is an extension of that wink, wink, nudge, nudge. And so it's not really to be taken seriously. It's paint, powder. But I never once thought that's who I am.

Right. Yeah. It's supposed to be fun. You're supposed to enjoy it. Absolutely. People take shit too fucking seriously.

They take stuff too seriously.

And they read into it too much. You're like, It's not that deep.

It's not that deep. It's not. It's really not.

I want to circle back just to conclude that conversation about George. The book ends like, you're not really together. And I thought that was such an interesting stylistic choice of like, how did you decide to end it like that?

Because it was the real The Death of my old self. And this has been the rebirth of my life. This is a whole other book, this part. In this business, if you get seven years in this business, you've done great. Fabulous. Great. But for me, to have the opportunity to have another bite of the apple because I got my shit together, amazing. So that's a whole other story. So ending it at my getting sober felt like the natural place.

I feel like from what I've read and looked up, you and George are pretty notoriously private people together with your relationship. How did you decide and did you talk to him about that you were going to write about these pretty intimate details of your lives?

He doesn't give a shit.

It's like, Bitch, just go. Just write.

They were going on this book tour, and the people were saying, Hey, we've got some seats set aside for George. Do you want to? He doesn't want to go to that.

He doesn't care about that. Stop. I love it.

He doesn't know who any pop stars are. He doesn't He doesn't care. He don't care.

So refreshing, though.

He does not care.

But that must be nice for your life. Oh, yeah. To come home to someone that's literally like, I don't care. Yeah.

No, he doesn't give a shit about this stuff.

You're like, Babe, guess what I did today? He's like, I care about what you did, but I don't actually care who was in the room. You're like, Beyoncé was there. He's like, Huh? No, he fucking knows who Beyoncé is.

He knows who she is. He would care. Let's see.

Who would he care about?

He loves Aretha Franklin. Of course, she's dead now. Of course, yes.

She can't walk in the room.

Actually, he He went with me. I thank God he was with me. In 1995, he went with me to Detroit. I performed at Aretha Franklin's birthday party, and we were in there, and her assistant came in with the check for me that she had written for my payment. This is before I went on stage. The check was written out to Ruth Paul. Signed Aretha Franklin, Ruth Paul. Of course, I couldn't keep it. I wanted to keep it, but thank God, George was there with me so he could see it so that it wasn't... I didn't dream this up. It's really real. They took the check back and wrote it out to Ruth Paul.

Oh, my God. But so he met her? Yes. So he hasn't been stunned since 1995. He's like, Fuck. George hasn't lived since 1985. He hasn't felt something. I know.

I'm trying to think who he would be star-struck by. He wouldn't be star-struck by. Anyway, this sounds weird. I'm trying to gain him points, but he is more star-struck by animals, and he knows the name of every flower, and he knows the name of every animal, like what they are. He knows the breed of every dog. He children gravitate towards it. He's that person.

Why do we give a fuck about celebrities anymore? I want to know dogs, animals, the flowers, the insects. Let's go, George.

Don't get me wrong. He's got his faults. He's got his faults.

You mentioned drag, and it's just... It is so incredible to have a show on its 16th season. That's unheard of. There's very few shows in the world that go that long. Do you remember the beginning days? I do. What does it make you think to look at this empire that you've built? You just must be so proud.

I am very proud. I'm most proud of the participants who have come through there who are so lovely and so courageous to allow their stories to be told and to share those stories of courage with people around the world.

What do you think is the biggest misconception about drag?

Oh, I don't know. I stopped trying to figure out what people think or try to put any credence on what other people think. People are crazy.

Are weird. I remember you said that in the beginning of this interview, and I'm like, that feels like that's the episode title. People are weird.

It's true. Well, when you free yourself from that, my mother said, If they're paying you bills, pay them, bitch, is no mine, or what other people think of me is none of my business. When you free yourself of that, it leaves so much room for your own frequency to resonate and transmit through you. Because that thinking of what other people think of you takes up so much space. It's exhausting. It's exhausting.

We don't have time.

There's no time. When I hit 30, I realized the biggest lesson I got when I turned 30 was, I don't have to like everyone, and everyone doesn't have to like me.

Amen. We're so fucking... Some people are so pressed, being like, They don't understand. They don't like... Who fucking cares? Do you know you? Do you understand you? Does your family, friends, or whoever the fuck you give shit about know you? Done.

There you go.

You're going to exhaust yourself. You're not even going to know who you are by the end if you're trying to appease every fucking person, especially with the Internet. You got bitches in fucking Kansas saying you're a fucking loser. Who cares? Yeah.

And if you had X-ray eyes to see where that bitch in Kansas was, that bitch is in a basement with Internet, but in a basement them, the less.

They've got WiFi. Their mother's basement. Right. Their mother's basement, the mother's WiFi, and they're in Keyword Warrior like, You're a fucking loser. Shut up, bitch in Kansas. God, we're done with you. Fuck. I can't take these bitches. Okay, you write in your book, You're born naked, and the rest is drag.

What do you mean by that? So you are born naked. So that concept allows you to create whatever Whatever life you want. You are a co-creator with whatever the source is. I mean, some people say God, some people say whatever. Whatever you choose to be the source, you are a co-creator with that. That's a lot of responsibility.

It is a lot. But it's also exciting if you look at it in the right way. We do have, for the most part, autonomy over ourselves. Sort of. Sort of, yeah. I don't need to get into the laws going right now. Fuck yourselves. But you It is exciting to know you can control yourself. And I think sometimes we get a little in the clouds and we start to look around us too much where it's like, why are you trying to be like that person, that person, that person? Why are you trying to be... What do you want? And I don't think we ask ourselves that enough because I don't think we're taught it. You said it in the middle of this interview, you were like, My mom told me, Stop being emotional, ruin, stop doing this. But it was all, again, projection from your mother. It's like, Well, maybe the most beautiful part of you is that you're emotional. Sure. Maybe you should lean into that. What do you want? And I think we can take from this, especially just like, live the way that you want to live and block out as much noise as you possibly can.

It's hard, but when you do it, there is some peace and quiet that you can find within yourself.

It is hard. And of course, all roads lead to, are you willing to be in this moment with yourself? Which is a tall order because the first thing you would recognize if you did that, it was how much pain you're in. So again, you I have to walk through that fire, which is painful to get to your true self. Because a lot of us, we sweep the emotions. In my case, I dissociate it with myself. We sweep a lot of our feelings under the rug. I did that with drugs and alcohol until I had to pay the bill. And when you look at the bill, you're like, What? Fuck, it's big as fuck. Wait, who ordered the Pellegrino?

What does the Pellegrino stand for in your life, Rue? What is it symbolize?

You literally have to go through all of the stuff that you put away before you can move forward. So that's why most people don't accept the challenge of creating the life they were meant to have. Most people go with plan A or plan B. And a lot of times, I think because plan A or plan B doesn't really fit your needs, you will use drugs and alcohol to numb the pain. That's what we're We're a culture of addicts. We're all addicted to something. But imagine if we were taught how to process those feelings. I use drugs and alcohol to process, to deal with feelings I didn't know how to process until eventually I did learn how to process those feelings. Imagine a world, a culture of people who could do that.

When we're able to do that, I think the amount of peace and unity that will come from of all different walks of life and all different backgrounds. We're so fucking far from that. But you're so right. It's like we're not taught to process, so we're angry, and we're miserable, and we're anxious, and we're insecure, and we are lost. And I appreciate you coming on today and just talking through this, because I think it's so inspiring for people listening. The way you talk about your memoir being almost like this other part of you that now is put to bed, and there's now a complete new book, basically, that's being created right now as you're sitting here and the way you're living your life. I think we need to start to look at ourselves that way of like, you can have been many different people in your life, and it doesn't define you. It's part of you. But I think every new chapter is on you to decide how it's going to be written. So I hope this was fun.

It was fun. Did it get better? No, it's actually a lot of fun. And I love what you're saying there, because the truth is, it's about the crucifixion and the resurrection. Once you're able to be reborn into your higher self, that's when the party really begins. That's why I feel like the party, for me, when I got sober, really started. I needed to put that first part to bed, and that's what the House of Hidden Meanings is about.

It's incredible. Everyone, please go read it, and congratulations to you because it is so cool to see. I love that you did a memoir where it stops at 1999, basically.

Something like 2000, something like that.

Yeah, 2000. And now it's like, what's next? Love it. Rupaul, thank you so much for coming in, Color Daddy. It truly was a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you..