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Hello, this is Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, and host of The Laverne Cox Show. Do you like your tea with lemon or honey? History making Broadway performer, Alex Newell. When I sing The Holy Ghost shows up, that's my ministry, and I know that well about me. That's the tea, honey. Whoever it is, you.

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Let's be honest. Life is stressful. It's work, it's relationships, and the state of the world. But there's a way to bring that stress level down, Calm. It's the number one app for mental wellness with tons of content to manage anxiety, promote concentration, and help you unwind. There's music, meditation, and more. Calm makes it easy to destress. You can literally do a one minute breathing exercise. Personally, I love the soundscapes. Nothing like a little rain on leaves to help soothe my nervous system. I've actually been working with calm for a couple of years now, and I'd love for you to check out my series on reducing overwhelm. Eight short practices, quick relief. Right now, listeners of On Purpose get 40 % off a subscription to Calm Premium at calm. Com/jay. That's C-A-L-M. Com/jay for 40 % off. Calm your mind, change your life.

I lost myself. Even when I was behind the mic singing it, there was no smile on my face. It was me against everyone else in the music industry. Next guest has taken America by storm, clocking up serious and huge hit. Baby, are you down? I would get in my car and just cry because I was so lost and so scared. Who else gets a major record deal and then walks away from it? Let's bring it back.

Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the Subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to me.

The best-selling author and host. The number one health and wellness podcast. On Purpose with Jay Shetty.

Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn and grow. Now, one of my favorite things about this platform is I get to sit down with friends who are change makers, incredible influencers, doing amazing things in the world. But I have this behind the scenes friendship with them, and I get to hang with them. I get to invite you all into a genuine, truthful conversation, a sincere conversation that we probably have had at dinners and when we're hanging out. But then we get to record it and share it with all of you. And today's guest is someone that I was a fan of ever since I was in my teens. I remember when his first song that I discovered him through dropped, and it literally felt like it changed culture for me and my friends. And we knew what we wanted to play. We knew what we wanted to play, we knew what we wanted to listen to. We were sharing it with all our friends and to watch his career from afar rise in the way that it did and the changes that he's made, the moves that he's made was phenomenal for Little Jay aged 14 and beyond there.

I'm speaking about British-Indian singer-songwriter Jay Schwann, who emerged in the American pop music scene a decade ago with his billboard Hot 100 number one single, Down. The pop music Titan changed the game stateside for both Asian and UK acts alike, hitting historical strides and breaking down multiple doors as a solo artist. Jay was the first Asian artist in history to have a billboard number one in America. He was also the first Asian and first British artist to have two simultaneous top 10 billboard singles. Jay is also the first British and first Asian artists to have a Spanish language number one in America. Welcome to the show, my good friend and amazing human, Jay Sean.

-brilliant. -wow. -welcome, man. -thank you, man. -welcome, brother. -i mean it. -what a beautiful introduction. -i mean it, dude. -i love that man. It's great to be.

Here, brother. It's so good to have you here, man. And obviously I met you... So for everyone who doesn't know, and you probably don't know this, I met Jay the first week I moved... When I say Jay also, I'm now talking about Jay Sean, not referring to myself. The first time I met you was the first week I moved to LA.

Because.

I met Jeremy, who you've been working with for a long time. I love you, Jeremy. Jeremy introduced us.

And.

This was in 2018.

I.

Loved how genuine you were, how down to earth you were. It was so easy to chat to you. Thank you, bro. We hit it off right away. I wish you lived in LA still so we could hang out all.

The time. I know, bro. I know. We keep talking about that, right? But now it is. It's so lovely to be here with you, bro. So proud of you and what you've done. I know that you have guests on and it's about them, but what you've been doing, I've been watching everything, it's amazing. Makes me proud. Obviously, we're both from England. What part of London were you from?

North London.

North London, okay. So I was West London, obviously, Hounslow. Southville, of course, first standard, as cliché as it gets for any Indian. But it's not easy having these lofty dreams and then being here in LA, which is literally the land of dreams, and broken dreams. Let's be honest about that. There's people who have goals, but there's also broken dreams. So to be able to do what you're doing and what I'm doing is really beautiful. So thank you for having me, man.

Yeah, man. Let's start there because I think I find it really interesting. At one point in my life, I think I had big dreams when I was a teenager, but I never actually believed the dreams could be real because I didn't have role models, people I could see doing those things. Did you always have big dreams and a belief that your life could go down that way?

You know, bro, the one thing about me, ever since I was a kid, I always wanted to, A, work my hardest, try my hardest, and apply myself. I've been a very driven person ever since I was a kid, and I think really, and so is my brother. I have one brother, Norup, and I think both of us have that, we share that same quality. We're very highly driven people. Now, that comes solely from my parents. It really does. My dad is a big dreamer. Big dreamer, bro. I only found out recently, when I started going into music and my brother went into film, that these were also my dad's dreams, but they were hidden. My dad used to write poetry, and nobody ever knew it, but he ended up being a businessman and a very successful businessman. But seeing my dad's drive and my mom is super hardworking as well, we were always inspired by that. Like, Wow, how did dad do this? He had three factories. They used to—a manufactured denim, they were like Top Man and River Island, all these places, they used to make all the jeans. It came from nothing, came from just a vision.

That was them. But then also they put us into private school. Now, private school in England, as you know, it costs a lot of money. Now, I could have gone to a school in the area that I lived in, Hounslow, but it wasn't the most affluent area at the time. It wasn't the best school system at the time. My parents wanted to be able to put us into an education system where they felt like we could Excel. They did, but that was a sacrifice. They didn't get to go on holidays every summer and go to Barbados. That money, they invested into me and my brother. I think because I saw that sacrifice, we always wanted to work hard, so we knew what they were doing, and it was for us. But the school that we went to was, I think—and Latymer Upper School, I have to shout them out—an incredible school because not only did you have to be smart to get in. You had smart kids, but they weren't like, Oh, Stuffy, I go to Latymer and I don't do anything fun. No, it was creative. They were fun. We had so much of a laugh.

It was an old boy school. The reason I'm telling you that is we weren't getting dressed up during the day to impress girls. I wasn't doing my hair to impress girls. So how did you make friends? How did you become the popular one? Everyone was smart. You had to have something. You had to either be the funny guy or you had to be the athletic dude, or you had to be the captain of the football team. Everybody excelled in a competitive way, but in a nice, friendly, competitive manner. That has always been my nature to do well and to apply myself to whatever I do. I think I've been like that my whole life. That's why I'm always doing different stuff, picking up different projects, because if this is all we got, bro, why not make the most of it? Do the things you enjoy and try to see how far you can get with them.

Yeah, definitely. What was it like having those conversations with your parents in those early days? Because we've talked about it a million times and every Indian has that pressure. And even the other night I was at an event, and it was the same thing where Indian parents were talking about this idea of just like doctor, lawyer, engineer. We've heard it a million times. But you were on that path. You were on that path to make your parents the proudest Indian parents of all time, of becoming a doctor. And I think there are a lot of people who listen to this. And even if they don't have an Indian upbringing, they may have an upbringing where their parents expectations mean something. Absolutely. And their parents expectations are important to them because they love their parents and they see their sacrifice. A lot of people are listening, maybe thinking, My parents work so hard, I look ungrateful if I follow my dreams.

What was that like? Absolutely. Listen, that's such a good point, Jay, because, of course, I get asked that question a lot. Some people might not know. You're right, I was on my path to being a doctor. It's not just necessarily an Asian thing. We can really break this down because as a parent now myself, I understand what it's like to want the best for your kids. You want them not to struggle. You want them to have a profession. You don't want them to be like, Oh, yeah, I have this dream. I want to be a painter and this and that. You're like, That's great. I love that. But I also don't want you to struggle for money. You don't have to be an Asian parent to want your kids to do well in school job. But the Asian thing, the reason it's a stereotype, I think personally, is because we were immigrants. Therefore, you couldn't come with a dream. You couldn't come on a ship from India, come to England to go, I want to be a professional fitness. They were like, What? Shut up, bro. You just left the bend. You've left the village.

You need to earn money. Our grandparents didn't get to have a lofty dream. They just had to work hard. They had to work two jobs sometimes, three jobs to put food on the table. Then therefore that also gets passed down to their kids. But with my particular situation, the medicine wasn't my parents dream for me. It was actually mine. I was a super nerd in school, bro. I loved getting straight eight grades. I loved working hard and then seeing the fruits of my labor. When I used to get those top grades, it made me feel like I'd achieved something. It wasn't like, Oh, mom and dad will be happy. I knew they'd be happy as well, but it was like, I'm happy for myself. I worked hard for this. I actually got fascinated with science. I still am completely and utterly fascinated with the human mind and the human body. Before I did medicine, actually, bro, not many people know this. I think you might be the first person who knows this. I actually did a degree, a combined science degree in psychology and biology. Oh, I.

Didn't know that.

Yeah. Right. I did a degree in psychology and biology, bachelor of science. I fully enjoyed it. Then I was thinking I'm going to go on to perhaps become a psychologist or a psychiatrist. I wanted to help people. I wanted to get in. That was always been my thing. Ended up applying for medicine and did two years of medicine. But like anybody, you have hobbies. My hobby was music. I was probably about 12 or 13 years old when I got obsessed with hip hop. I couldn't give it up. I was writing raps at the age of 13 because I was watching these rappers from... Do you remember YomTV? I don't know if you remember this probably I'm going to show my age here. Yo MTV Raps, okay? Because in England, growing up in England, we didn't have access to... A, of course, we didn't have the internet back then. We didn't have access to all of these hip hop shows. We had this cable show on MTV, and it would come on and it was called Yo MTV raps with Ed Lover and Dr. Dre.

I had MTV bass with Trevor Nelson.

Yeah.

Exactly. And Westwood.

Yeah, all of that. -obviously, I'm going completely off topic here. -do it. I want you to. But yeah, like point being, applying yourself and working hard and all that stuff, anything I took an interest in, I would take it to the extreme. So science, work, academia, interested in it, want to do well, took it to the extreme. Let's go. One degree, all right, no, but I want to do this too. In my head, there was nothing saying, You can't do that. There was nothing saying, You done your degree, bro. Chill now, go get a job. I was like, No, but I'm also want to do this. I think I've always been like that my whole life. There I am studying medicine, but I also want to, for some weird reason, go on stage and rap. I was a rapper then.

I.

Wasn't a singer. Anyway, so I've always been juggling, bro. I've always been juggling things that I'm passionate about.

What's been something that you think you've taken to the extreme more recently? Or is that mindset still there or has that changed as time has gone on?

It's not necessarily taking things to an extreme recently, but I have really been interested in being the entrepreneur side of the entertainment industry, and it's for a number of reasons. First of all, being an artist, this is going to be like next year, is going to be 20 years of me being an artist. That's amazing and it's cool, but it doesn't have to be everything I do for the rest of my life. I've been so blessed to be able to do music. Literally, if you think about my job, I write songs, then I sing songs, and I go around the world and I travel and I try to make people happy when I'm performing my music. But that doesn't mean I don't have other interests. It doesn't mean that I'm like, for example, I love restaurants and bars. I love them. Anytime I go to a different city, first thing I do, either before or after my show, Where can we go? Where do the locals go and eat? What's the local cuisine here? Where should I go and sample this so that I can get to say, I went to Milan and I knew what.

That felt like.

Then I was like, my dream was always like, I want my own restaurant. I want my own bar. Then I did that. We set up an Indian restaurant called Naoma and a bar called Switch. That was fun because it allowed me to use a different side of my brain space. All of a sudden now I'm making entrepreneurial decisions, which I never really got to do through music because it's a different field. We have the yoga studio that you know my wife, Tara, owns and runs. So all of these things keep life interesting for me. I think that's the thing. I want to do as much as I can and enjoy it and see where I can take it. But it doesn't mean you try to do everything because you don't want to be a Jack of all trades, master of none. It's just what fills me. I think that the recently that you've been the entrepreneurial stuff.

Yeah, that's awesome. What has been like... You spoke about earlier, like breaking that stereotype of it's not only Asian families who want their kids to be taken care of and do well. In the music industry, walk me through what that was like, because I think even as a British, Indian, and a South Asian person, I don't think we necessarily know what it was like, because I think when you grow up in England, especially in London and around, to be honest, all across England, Indian culture is very accessible. It's normalized. It's everywhere. And then coming to the US, I don't believe when you did that it was like that, as far as I know. And what did you feel you were working with? What were you excited about? What did you come up against that you were trying to make sense of? Because I think there's a lot of people, even right now, I think everyone in different cultures, different traditions, different trajectories, has to face some form of resistance, some form of stereotype, some form of opposition. And I've always appreciated your way of navigating these things because I don't think you look at it as like, Oh, my God, everyone's against me.

I don't think you lived life that way. Walk us through what goes.

Through your mind. Yeah, of course, man. I guess we should really just take it right back to the beginning. To answer that question, I'm there, I'm a student, I'm a medical student. I'm obsessed with hip hop still. I'm obsessed with music. My love for hip hop had also then gone into R&B as well because they were hand in hand by then.

The good times.

-yeah.

The good. I just saw Usher live in Vegas this weekend.

Oh, did you? Oh, man. Again, then, Oh, my God, bro, there's so much that we can talk about these things, because you say that and he literally transported you back to a period of your life, which I- 16. What were the stresses when we were 16? Nothing. Passing our exams, doing well in our GCSEs. Everything else was childhood. It was big dreams. It was you're fearless. You can take on the world. You want to do anything and everything, and life is just good. Music was great then, just vibes were there. That's what I was experiencing. I was listening to all of that same stuff, Usher and Jagged Edge and Black Street and all that stuff. I used to think to myself, every time we went out and we'd go out clubbing with my friends and stuff, it would always be, especially in London, as you know this, quite a heavy Indian demographic. I should say just like an Asian demographic. What we call Asian in England, they call South Asian here. Tons of us in all these clubs, we'd go to concerts. I'd go and see Fugees in concert or I'd go and see DAS effects.

I'd go and see Lords of the Underground. All of these people, still a bunch of Asians there. At that time, I had started writing and I had a friend of mine who's a DJ and we used to make these mix tapes, me and my cousin, and we used to make mix tapes just for our own fun. Then our friends would be like, Actually, that's pretty sick. Can you make me a copy? Fine, I gave them a copy. All of a sudden it was spreading around school and then that chubby, nerdy Indian kid became cool all of a sudden in school. That felt nice.

But.

That was just in school. It wasn't happening on a major level anywhere. There was no Asian mainstream artist on stage that we could go and watch who would sing or rap the music that we love. We would go there and I'm like, I'd be at an Usher concert and I'm watching him and I'm watching tons of Asians scream for Usher. I'm there, I'm in the mosh pit. But I'm going, Why isn't one of us up there? We clearly love this music. If we can listen to this music and we can buy this music, why can't we make this music? Why can't we be the one up there on stage? I think when that click switched for me, that changed everything. Because again, talking about how I just thought nothing was impossible, I said, Well, I'm going to do that. Why can't I? Okay, how do I do that? All right, I'm into talent competitions. So I did. I'm simultaneously studying, but then I'll be listening to Choice FM at the time. -it was Choice FM.

-i loved Choice FM. -yeah, back in the… -Yeah. 107.1 or.

Something like that? -something like that, right? -slightly. And 96.9, I think it was.

96.9, I think it was both. I think it was one of those ones that.

Was yeah. Right, yeah, exactly. Anyway, I'll be listening to Choice FM, and there was this talent competition and it was called Commander B's Night Flight. It was around about midnight and all you have to do, you have to pick up the phone, spit your best verse, or sing. At the time, I was just a rapper. I was obsessed with hip hop. I said, All right, what have I got to lose? Picked up the phone, dropped a little rhyme. You either get flushed, you got the toilet flush sound, or you get passed on to the next round. I got through. Eventually, they chose the top 100 in the country, and then that 100 was cut down to the final 20. Then the final 20 had to perform live in Brixton Academy. That was my first time on stage ever. When I looked around, Jay, I'm not lying to you, I was the only non-black, non-white person in that room. I didn't think about it at the time because you're not looking at that. You just got the mic in your hand and you've got an opportunity and you're going, This is amazing. How did I even get here?

This is so fun. It was fun. But now looking back, I was like, I was the only Asian kid and it didn't scare me. Therefore, I just did what I loved and I did it without fear, and I ended up coming third in the whole competition. That's what gave me the confidence to know that I think I can take this somewhere.

How did you have that courage and guts at that age? I guess it's part of that extreme focus mentality, but I feel like today I have so many people in my life that I know that are scared of posting on TikTok or posting on Instagram or putting out, like for you to drop that verse on a phone call, you know other people are going to hear it. Other people are going to find out about it. When you're on stage, of course, you're laid bare in front of all the audience. I think so many people today get in their heads and they're like, Well, I can't post that. I look stupid. I can't do that. I'm not good enough. And even people who are really talented stop themselves from putting things out there because they're scared of what their friends will say. I remember when I posted my first video, it was the people closest to me that criticized it or ridiculed it. It wasn't the audience. The audience actually responded fairly well for day one, but it was the people around me that said, Jay, you talk too fast. Jay, that point didn't make sense.

Jay, your editing is not as good as it should be. That was coming from people I knew, whereas the comments were like, Oh, I love this. I just shared this with a friend. And so I feel so many people have that block. What was it for you that gave you that courage to say, This is fun. I love that idea of, This is fun. I'm doing what I love, and I actually don't care. How did you have that then?

I didn't care. And you're right. You know the reason why I didn't care back then? Because in order to find out somebody's opinion, they had to actually be in front of you and talk to you about it in person. Now we live in a day and age where we've got connection with every single human being on the planet. We're not built like that, bro. Our brains are not built to have that many connections with that many people. We're just not built like that. That's why we get anxiety. Because we know that, I post this, it's going to go out to the world, and then 99.9% of the people who react are people I don't know, and I have to take their criticism on board. But we weren't built to be able to deal with that. We're just not designed to be able to deal with that much. Therefore, of course it overwhelms us. Of course, it gives us anxiety. Of course, we get depressed because user Z1599 said this about me. But we don't know that person. When I was a kid, I just did what I did because I didn't have the opinions of too many people around me.

Even if I did, like you said, and that's another great point, often the people who are around you might not have the courage to take a step out of the comfort zone like you did or I did. Therefore they're just like, Oh, no, bro. Or maybe it's love. Maybe they're just like, I don't want you to be sad if someone says something about you. I don't want you to be hurt if it doesn't work out. I just loved it. That's the only truth of it all is when I tell you that it was an obsession, Jay, I was obsessed with hip hop and R&B, but not just the culture, the technique. If I was to really break it down, obsessed with the fast rappers of that time, that's what it was. I was obsessed with Big L. I was obsessed with Chipp-Fu from Food Stickens. I was obsessed with Jay-Z with the original flavor. The way that they would rhyme, it was very, very fast. That to me was just so cool at the age of 14. How are you wrapping that fast? I would emulate it and I would try to do what they were doing.

I was like, Damn, how did they do that? It became like this nerdy obsession. Then when it came to singers, it was vocalists. How are you singing like that? How are you doing those runs? How are you doing those riffs? I would study them. I would study Boyz II Men. I would study all these guys and copy their riffs and copy... That's how I learned how to rap and how to sing by literally just admiring these people who had such a great skill set.

Therefore, when I learned how to do it for myself, of course I wanted to just go and have a go at it. So why not go up there and have a go? It wasn't because the end goal was going to be a record deal. I didn't know that. I wasn't thinking that far ahead. The end goal was, I love doing this. If you love football, you want to kick a football around. You don't want to just do it in your back garden. If you get a chance to play on a big pitch, are you not going to go?

I love that. The simplicity of that is beautiful because I do think that it is love that carries you through. And I think today it's almost the opposite. It's the inverse, right? So at that time, we didn't have a lot of role models or people that look like you or people like you that had made it. And I don't just mean that by race and gender and back. I just mean, in general, in life, fame and success and careers like that were reserved for a few. There are only a finite number of TV channels, finite number of music artists, finite number of actors, all very mysterious and unreachable, and you never knew how they got there. Today we live in the opposite, where it's like all your friends are influencers, everyone.

Has a-To all of your.

Friends are famous. Yeah, everyone is doing something interesting. You know someone in your family or a network who's figured something out, like people are running businesses. There's entrepreneurs here. There's this and that. Someone has a podcast, whatever. So now it's almost the inverse, where it's like now you see it happening so much that now you think it has to work out that way. So that time you just said, I never believe. I never even thought about a record deal. Now when you start making music, all you think about is a record deal because it does feel within reach or it does feel like someone else did it. And I fully agree with you. When I put out my first video, all I thought was I love sharing this wisdom. I'm tired of just sharing it in small rooms of five people. I think the wisdom should reach more people, and I'm just trying to see if it works. But there wasn't a goal or a strategy or a whole approach like, One day it's going to be this, and we're going to have this, and we're going to build a media empire. It wasn't like that.

It was just I love this, and I actually don't know what else to do with this apart from try and share it. I'm Cheryl McClellum, host of the Cold.

Case podcast, Zone 7.

Join us every Wednesday to hear cases like the Long Island.

Serial killer. Here, Carrie Lawson, daughter of the.

Notorious.

Serial killer.

Btk, weigh in on the accused.

Long Island serial killer's children.

You show genuine interest, and you can't fake it.

These guys can see right through to your soul. You have to be walled off, prepared.

If you don't know your stuff.

They're going.

To just call you out and they're going to be like, Nope, I'm talking to somebody else.

I'm not talking to you.

Here.

Great insight from one of New York City's finest, Detective Joe Jackalone, a cold case expert. You know, as well as I do, cops weren't even aware of it back then, so they're going to have some difficulty putting those cases together unless, of.

Course, he confesses. Listen to his own seven with Sheryl McClellum.

On the iHeart Radio.

App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

My name is Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and host of The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember my.

Award-winning.

First season? I've been pretty busy, but there's always time to talk to incredible guests about important things. People like me have been screaming for years. We've got to watch the Supreme Court. What they're doing is wrong. What they're doing is evil. They will take things away. I can only hope that Dobbs is that Pearl Harbor moment.

Girl, you and I both know what it took to just get through the day in New York City and get home.

In one piece.

The fact.

That we're.

Here and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, that's momentous. It's not just us sitting.

Around complaining about some bills. The only reason.

That you.

Might think, as Chase said, that we're always miserable is because people.

Are.

Constantly attacking us and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to the Laverne Cox Show on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share.

Yes, yes. The Street.

Stoic Podcast is back. One of.

The quotes that came to mind here is from Drake. The lyrics.

That came up for me was from Beyonce.

I pulled a quote from.

Just one of my favorite artists in.

General, Kittuddy. We are combining hip hop lyrics and quotes from some of the greatest to ever grace a microphone.

In it, he says, Because it's just waves. Got to just float, float.

And have faith.

It's just waves. It's a line that we've.

All heard before from Lauren Hill.

And she says.

Don't be a hard rock when you.

Really are.

A gem.

Along with ancient.

Wisdom from some of the greatest philosophers of all time. Seneca, right? And he says.

Your mind will take shape of what.

You frequently hold in thought, for the human spirit is colored by.

Such impression. A stoke quote from Epictetus where he says, Don't seek for everything to happen as you wish it would.

But rather wish that everything.

Happens as it actually will. Then your life will flow well. And listen, I know we all could use a daily shot of inspiration, so this is the podcast for you.

Listen to Season 2 of The Street Stoke Podcast.

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Or wherever you get your podcasts. I've always believed one thing, right? If I operate from a place of panic, desperation, just looking around, competition, it won't work. It doesn't work for me because it's not true. It's not organic, it's not real. There is no actual substance in that product. It's hollow, it's fake, and people can see it. I really believe in that. It sounds airy-fairy, but I believe in it. I know for a fact, I have made songs just chasing hits, just like, Oh, that song work. I went so far down that road, bro, of trying to chase big pop hits. I lost myself. I didn't even, when I was behind the mic singing it, there was no smile on my face. Because I knew you were writing songs for this climate and you got this guy talking in your ear, You need to do a song like this because so and so had a number of big, Oh, we'll get the producer who did that. Oh, we'll write this right with the songwriter who did that. I'm like, But I don't even like that music. Yeah, but that's all that's working right now, so you got to do it.

There was no love in it. Guess what? My fans could tell. They can tell. They're not stupid. They know... St. Jay Sean, man. What's he doing? I see what he's doing. It's cool. I love him, so I let him do it. But this is St. Jay. It's not the Jay that we loved. It's not the Jay that we fell in love with. I see what he's doing. There's a pressure for him to do it. That's cool. We'll stand by him, but we'll wait for him to come back. He'll find his way back, as I always do. But when it's not from a place of love, and it's not from a place of passion, and it's not real. I feel like there's a metadata in that that people can feel. And that's always been the story of my life.

That's beautiful. Yeah, I know. And it's great to have that connection to your audience. But when you start, obviously like you said, I still remember when Dance with You came out, and we used to wait for it to be played on.

channel U.

I'm trying to think of where else, but channel U was my.

Place back then. Yeah, I.

Remember channel U. And back in the day, this is again, age of major, you'd have to wait for the songs you love to come on to record them on VHS. You'd record it, and then you'd make your own VHS music video. So then I'd have Usher, You, P Diddy, Eminem, whatever else it is, and you're collecting all these people. And then now whenever your mates come over, you put this video in, and then you play that, or you're playing channel U in the background anyway. But it's like I remember when Dance with You came out, and for anyone who doesn't know it, if you didn't know Jay before the US world, go back and check that video because I still think it's a British... It lands even today. That's how good that song is. Thank you. And I can still bump in the car and it is awesome. But to me, it was such a moment for the culture because it was actually good music and it was actually cool too. And I think that that's hard to do as well. I think it's really hard when you're trying to do something fresh and new and you're trying to own a sound or create a sound, but to actually do that is really challenging.

So when you're at your best, most creative self, as you were just describing now, walk us through the more texture of that recipe of when you're really landing in that passion, that love, the excitement. As you said, walk us through that when you're at your peak creativity, when it's truly authentic, what does that creative process look like?

There's no thought. That's what I always tell people: making music is not a science. There will be people who tell you, and listen, fine, some people have had a very, very long successful career by methodically thinking, verse must be X amount of syllables and this melody works because this chord structure works for the last 10 years, top 10 hits, this is the chord progression, and cool. I'm not built that way. That's not how I make music. Amazing. Hats off to the people who can write hits like that. That's not how I make music. I feel. I feel and I smile and I jump up and down in the studio when that song is done. If I'm feeling like that, the one thing, the rule I have is, after I've written a song, if I am not so excited, regardless of what time it is, it could be 4:00 in the morning, I could have had a 20-hour day, if I'm not excited enough to go behind that mic, bro, and sing that song right there that second, it ain't it. If I can say, I'll wait till tomorrow, then that means my fans can go, I'll wait till tomorrow to hear it.

They have options. The thing is, I go off of that excitement. When Dance with You Happened, I had met Richie Rich, who really is responsible for just everything from the beginning of the genesis of my career, our work together. He heard something in me. He knew I rapped, he knew I sang. What I had developed was a style of blending the two. I would fast rap and sing, but sing it with a melody. Because the rapper in me was so alive, I didn't approach the beat the way that I would say perhaps if I was just a singer. I actually wrote it as a rap. Girl, what if I told you, be thinking of all of the possible lyrical ways to come and approach you. Then I'd write those lyrics down, but then I put a melody, Girl, what if I told you, be thinking of all of the possible lyrical ways to come and approach you. It was something that I don't think many people had heard before, but it was my style. Had there been a suit in the room, like an A&R, he would have gone, You're way too fast. I don't know what you're saying.

Slow it down. Too many words. This doesn't work. Who does this? Give me an example of someone who's had success with a song like this, with a verse like that. That's exactly why you should do it. That's exactly why I did it. It's because it's new, because it was fresh, and because it was me, bro. It's me. When that landed on that song, I think a lot of the Asian kids in England, growing up if you're growing up in England, you're listening to probably R&B and hip hop, which is very common for us at the time. That was the culture. -very, yeah. That was what we were into. Then your mom's watching some Indian drama or some Indian Sharak movie. -bollywood. -you've got Bollywood. You've got beautiful Hindi melodies going on in the background. If you're Punjabi like me, you're going to weddings and they're playing Pankara and Punjabi music and it's upbeat. Those were all of my musical influences. When I was in that room, it was not foreign or weird or even contrived for Rishy and I to have... First of all, when Rishy put that Indian flute, to me, I wasn't like, Oh, that's Indian.

I was like, Damn, that's sick. That's a sick sample. That sounds amazing. Over a hip hop beat, pop R&B chords, it was something brand new. But it was all the music that we listened to in one pot.

It.

Wasn't like we're trying to create a new genre. We created a new genre by accident.

Because.

It was just the stuff that we were into. Then when we did that, had written that song originally, left it there. Rishy was working with Juggy D, obviously a Punjabi artist. He heard it. He was like, This is sick. Jump on it, bro.

He.

Did his thing. Before he knew it, we had a song that no one had ever heard. Guess what? The people, the Asian culture at that time had all of their favorite music on one song. You had Punjabi, you had hip hop, and you had R&B, and you had this whole thing in three minutes of one song. For the first time ever, I think by three at that time, young dudes. Because if you were listening to Punjabi music, they were like uncle ages. Do you know what I mean? -they're like, blood, and then... -you're listening to like, Exactly. You're listening to like. But he's like 50. All of a sudden you've got these young girls and guys who were listening to people who look like.

Them.

Doing this stuff. That, I think, was something that was brand new, and it just changed the game, man.

Yeah, no, I agree with that. Even when you see that in new artist, I remember the first time I ever heard a Drake song. Early mix tapes, you were like, Who is this guy who can sing and rap and do his own thing? Now I know that today, Drake's gone on to just do hit after hit after hit and all the rest of it. I think sometimes he gets a hard time where people are like, Oh, yeah, he just makes it. I'm like, Well, if you think about it, when he started, he was probably the only real rapper that also did that, was able to mix the two. I've always loved his music, but to me as well, it was that same thing where he was putting together two things that felt natural to him in his own way. He could sing really high notes and then put in a rap verse.

And go hard on a beat.

Exactly. He could do both. And it was just exciting. To me, it's always been exciting when people are not imprisoned and limited by a box. And it's what you're saying about even the entrepreneur and the musician in you and allowing yourself. I think today we've become so much better at recognizing that people are multi-hyphenates. You know that Rihanna can have a music career and be a fashion icon. Exactly. You know that an actress can also have an amazing company. You know that. Exactly. Ryan Reynolds can also sell an alcohol or whatever it may be. There's so many different ways of doing that. -he can own a football team like Wrexham. Exactly. But in the beginning, it was like, No, you're an actor. Just be an actor. Honor that.

Do that. And sometimes, actually, you do this role, you're only doing comedies. And then an actor could be like, Dude.

I.

Know I'm good at comedy, but give me a drama, man. At least give me a shot. Let me show those skills. Right? Yeah. Yeah. For me, it was always like, Okay, I'll do music, but don't tell me I can only do these records. I can only sing these kinds of songs. I can only sing. I can't bus into a rap randomly. That always confused me because I was like, Hold on a second.

This is.

My artistic expression. So surely it should just be, why aren't I just allowed to do who I am? Because otherwise then it's not Jay Sean, it's Jay Sean with other people in his ear, then it's not just Drake. It's Drake with other people in his ear. I think the reason why people fall in love with an artist is because that person has something unique to share with the world. If you're in a certain mood, you're going to be like, Man, I don't know, man. I feel like I put on some Adele right now or something. Why? Because you know what Adele offers. You know what her music, how it makes you feel.

Yeah.

As opposed to just a random singer who's got a beautiful voice.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, you reminded me of when Matthew McConaughy came on the podcast, he talked about how he was known as the romcom guy. So he was doing How to Lose a guy in 10 Days. He was doing all those types of movies, and he was amazing at it. It was like Ghost of Girlfriends Past, and he was that guy. He was like the hot, heartthrob that holds those movies. And he said he had to take a two year break from making movies to shift his brand to be able to do movies like The Lincoln Lawyer later on Dallas Bias Club, which he won the award for. And he literally didn't make movies for two years, and he was getting paid 15 million to do a romcom. And he said for two years he didn't do anything because that was his brand. And he wanted to do more serious roles. He wanted to do roles that he cared about. And it took him saying no for two years. And that's a lot of like... It is. It's amazing to think that people who have made Pivots in their career have had to have these very interesting transition periods.

What's the biggest difference between the UK and the US music scene? Because I think you have that as unique experience. There's a few of you. There's you, and then more recently, obviously, people like Ed Sheeran, Adele. There's few people who've been able to be successful in both.

I'll tell you a funny thing. So obviously at the time, pre-2009, I was lucky enough to have gathered myself a worldwide fan base, excluding, I thought, excluding America. I just thought, There's no way America knows my music. And that's because America has, let's be honest, they have the crème de la crème of everything. If you think of any of the bigger stars, they're usually American, whether they're Hollywood stars, whatever-Now they're.

All Canadian.

Now they're all from specifically Toronto. -beaver. -right. But at the time, so that's why when we were in London, London is a small island. And so what happens is sometimes you can get, I refer to it as small island syndrome, you can walk around your little place and feel like the big shot. You're like, Yeah man, I'm a Dagenham, bro. People know me and hear me. Yeah, I'm Leicester, bro. People know me here. Boy, I got Scotland, man. People know me in Scotland, bro. Okay, cool. That's amazing and great. If you can have a career then and you're happy with that, that's great. I always, again, going back to me being a person who's highly driven, I would always say, Take me somewhere where no one knows me. I want to win them over. Take me somewhere. Take me anywhere where nobody knows me and let me see if I can win them over. That has always been something that's very dear to me, even when it comes to shows, any show. You could do a corporate gig and they have it and it'slike, people would be like, Oh, they want you for this show.

I'd be like, Okay, cool. What's the demographic? This is X, Y, Z. I don't then think, Okay, I'm just going to sing X, Y, Z song. I go, How can I connect with them? What am I going to be able to, on what level? And then win them over so that then they can go, You know what? I didn't actually know Jay Sean before or even like his music, but I like the dude. I like the guy. I connected with him and he was fun on stage and he was funny and he was endearing. Then he actually rocked the crowd. Now all of a sudden you won them over. When it came to America, I took that same approach. I remember distinctly being at passport control and I was going to go and sign with cash money. That's why I was going over there. It was a big day for me, and I was super excited. I was like, I can't believe this, man. I'm about to get a record deal in America. But I went knowing that if I don't succeed, at least I have everything else that I've worked hard for. If I do succeed, man, that's only a bonus now.

That's going to only be even better. But I'm excited. I'm a bit gassed up, right? -i'm there, I'm at -Of.

Course, man. This is like, little wave. It's like, Oh, my gosh. -big deal. -young money, cash money record.

Right. Then I'm there at passport control and the guy goes, you know how they are in America sometimes, they're like, What is the purpose of.

Your visit? Oh, gosh, I still.

Get it every time.

-you get nervous, didn't it? -i get so nervous, man. I've had so many years.

He's like, What is the purpose of your visit to the United States? I was like, Here's me now, a little slightly cocky. I go, To be honest with you, mate, about to sign a big record deal. He goes, Yeah? What's your name? I go, J. Sean. He goes, I haven't heard of you. Now I know I've got work to do. Right on my entry to this country, the good Lord has gone, Relax, mate. Calm your ego. There's work to be done. It was through that one guy, that immigration officer looked me dead in the eye and said, So what? I haven't heard of you. I thought, All right, let's do this. Let's work.

Let's work. It's always the immigration officers that don't recognize anyone, man. I get the same thing every time. It's the best.

But I love that. It humbled me in a split second. I'm not saying I had a big head either, but if I was to be cocky about my venture in the United States, I learned right there and then, Bro, prove yourself again. That's what I had to do.

From scratch. It's such a great mindset to have because you could have had that interaction and gone, Well, you should know me. You could do that.

-or.

You will know me. -yeah, you.

Will know me.

-get cocky, right? -yeah, you will know me. It's so interesting because I feel like that is just never a satisfying way to live. That's what I've discovered. The idea of thinking you're at the top of the mountain or that you're doing things, it's the same thing as you said earlier, when you're making music from love, passion, and excitement. I feel like if you're doing something because of revenge, because of proving someone wrong, because of I'll show you, because I'll see you at the top, when you do things with that energy, even if and when you make it, it never fulfills you because that person may not have the reaction you want them.

To have. -than you were in the first place.

-that person would still be like, Yeah, I don't listen to music, or I don't like your music. Or when you go up to that guy and go, Oh, wait, did you hear me now? I'm number one billboard. And they go, Yeah, my girlfriend didn't like you. Exactly. Yeah, it still doesn't work.

It won't feel you, bro. And it's a very, very good point. I think that it's such an important point, because for me, 20 years of work, what have I learnt? What are my lessons? I've been around the world. We were calculating this. I've come up to a million miles just on one airline. Just on one airline. I've definitely done way more. Must have been around the world 50 times, at least. 50? In terms of mileage, yeah, easily. That means I have had experiences after experience, after experience, after experience, after experience, after experience, after experience. Some amazing, some horrible, some that can make you feel like you're on top of the world and some that can pull you into a dark place and you don't even want to talk to anyone, depressed, crying. Where is that safe place? Where's the place where you're just, Okay, man, I'm all right with this. I'm in this industry and it can either make me or break me, or it can do neither, or I can just have a great time while I'm here, make people happy, do shit that I love to take care of my family, earn a good living.

It all comes down to exactly what you just said. Why are you doing this? If I was, for the rest of my career, only driven to write songs and perform and record to beat the big monster that is down, if that was my only incentive, got to be down, got to be down, I got to top that. I am setting myself up for failure A, and definitely a ton of anxiety, a ton of bad feelings and feelings that just aren't on a vibe at all because I'm doing it all for the wrong reasons. If I switch my mentality and go, Man, how lucky were you? How blessed were you to be able to have written that beautiful unicorn of a song that made so many people happy that really did break a lot of records and changed your life, gave you a life, man, gave you a life. Put that in your back pocket and be grateful and say, Thank you. That was wicked. That was amazing. Now let's go on and write stuff that you enjoy, that you love, that perhaps your fans might connect to. But if I was to make the metric of my happiness: chart positions, comments, likes, followers, I'm setting myself up for failure because I can't control any of those things at all.

The only thing I can control is the music that I write, the music that I record, the music I put into this world, the way I interact with people when I'm on stage and make them feel, those are the things I can control. Therefore, my happiness hopefully will be in a safe place because I'm not pinning it. I'm not rooting it in something that is so out of my control.

There's this quote that I heard that someone said that at one point I had to stop being a hit machine and go back to being an artist. And I love that idea, but I feel every artist goes through this series of phases where you start as a pure artist. You start with pure creativity and pure passion. And then in the scaling of a business, of having team members or whatever it is, you become a hit machine. You try and like you said, you try and like mathematically figure out the equation. You may have some hits. You may not have some hits, but you have this. And either way, whether you've had it or whether you haven't, you become unfulfilled. And that's what happened. So externally, even if this person is having all the number ones, they're still feeling internally fulfilled because it doesn't link back to that pure artistry that they started.

I don't know why you.

Started doing it. And then they try to go back there. Everyone goes back there. Everyone wants to go back there. Some people take 30 years. Some people do it in three years. I've met people at both ends of the spectrum who they made stuff they hated for 30 years. Some people gave up after three years and said, You know what? I'm going back to doing what I love. And it's normal. It's normal for everyone to have that. So it's so wonderful to hear you talk about it in that way because I think that... We had Rick Rubin here a few months ago, and he was saying the same thing. He was saying the same thing you said. He was like, Music isn't made formulaically. He was like, You're not trying to think what people are going to love and some are going to make it? ' To hear that across artists and musicians, different genres, different backgrounds, it speaks to a lot. When was your darkest time or when was a moment where you felt like you were just.

This is not here? It's so true, everything you're saying. Artists, we exist in one of two states. We're either, You can't mess with me. I'm best. Or, I suck. Everyone hates me. I'm the worst. I should quit.

I can relate.

No, in between. The hardest place to be is, I'm all right. I guess I'm an all right artist. Who wants to be? I'm an all-right artist? Nobody. How does it go? I don't know. All right, man. I've got a cop. Nobody wants that. If you're not killing it, you're here. I suck. I should quit. Nobody likes me. People aren't listening to my music. They're listening to that person's music. Of course, diverse. I've had those moments. Not only have I had them epically in one particular point in my life, my whole journey, man, has been like... It's been like the Rocky story, which is why I'm so obsessed with Rocky.

I love Rocky.

Love Rocky, bro.

The Slide Docs out.

I haven't started watching it. Oh, man, I watched it. It's incredible. I'm also obsessed with Syvesia Stalone. That dude, he's so smart, and I watched it, I'm not going to ruin it for you. But one thing I've always known about Syvestre Stalone is that this guy bet on himself. That's the story we know. He bet on himself. Didn't get cast in movies because of the way he looked, the way he spoke. I said, What did he do? He wrote roles for himself. What an amazing, what a genius thing to do. You're not going to cast me? Fine. He bet on himself with Rocky, but he didn't win immediately in Rocky. But what that story tells me is, here's a guy, a bum, just a dude that no one pays attention to, but he's still a human being. He symbolizes your average Joe. Your average Joe who the world ain't really looking at. They don't really stop to notice him, but he has a secret dream. He has a little dream inside of him. Then when he gets that opportunity, he goes for it because he's got, A, nothing to lose, but B, he's all heart.

He's all heart. He's doing it from a place of love. He doesn't necessarily need that belt. He just loves A, the game, and B, I can't believe I got this opportunity. Man, I'm going to take this. I'm going to take it with both my hands. I'm not going to let go. But then the Rocky Saga, the storyline continues, the rise and then the fall. That's why, to me, he's such a great writer, is because I think he was simultaneously writing about what was going on in his life. From Nobody to becoming the biggest star in Hollywood to then maybe getting caught up in the game, losing your roots. Now I'm not even speaking the same way. I don't walk the same way, talk the same way. I don't write the same way, because now I'm a star and people are looking at me expecting different things. My career was like that. When I started off, I just wrote from the heart, man. I wrote, because Jay, Richie, Richie, and juggy Deey are coming through on a song. Who says that? Why are you calling your own names out on a song? Most songs are just like, Hey, girl, I saw you from the last time.

It's an imaginary story about something.

Now that you.

Call it out. This guy thinks it's okay on his first ever song to.

Go, Yeah. It's part of the song, it's not the intro part. It's not like the yo. It's not that part. It's the verse.

It's the verse. Why? Young, cockiness, fresh, fun. Not even thinking about it, not studying other songs going well. What lyrics do they write? What are the big hits? I did it. And it connected and it felt right and it worked. First album, you're familiar with Me.

Against Myself? Yeah, I remember buying Me Against Myself on CD because I was so excited to look at the art. I loved the idea because on the last track, you had to wait a few minutes and fast forward it to wait for bonus material. The secret, yeah. I love those hidden things.

Yeah, massive.

I'm Cheryl McClellum, host of the Cold.

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These guys can see right through to your soul. You have.

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They're going.

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I'm not talking to you.

Hear.

Great insight from one of New York City's finest, Detective Joe Jackalone, a cold case expert. You know, as well as I do, cops weren't even aware of it back then, so they're going to have some difficulty putting those cases together unless, of course.

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Me Against Myself, why was it even called me Against Myself? It was called Me Against Myself because, bro, in all honesty, truth be told, from the beginning of my career, I have been in this little bubble where I have been fighting myself the whole time. The the rapper versus the singer. The R&B guy versus the pop guy. It's always been this duality of who is actually keeping it real and who's the one making the money and up on the stages? Are they the same person? Because the guy who's keeping it real was the rapper. He was the guy who was like, You're writing these fictional songs about, Hey, baby girl this, baby girl, that. On the song, Me Against Myself, it's literally the rapper versus the singer. The other part of this whole thing was, it was me against everyone else in the music industry. Because at the time when I started, I didn't really know it, know it, but now we look back. I was really out there by myself as the only Asian kid in a sea of… I'm talking like a bit of the mainstream artists now.

And 20 years ago, even.

More so. Twenty years ago. It was only until I really started coming across situations where I realized I am the odd one out. I am the Fish Out of Water here. I'm the one that doesn't look like anybody else. It was very different. For me, I felt like at that point, the only thing that was going to get me through all of this was by staying true to who I am. There's this song I wrote called Good Enough. What I would do is, instead of screaming about it on interviews and ranting on about it and complaining about how difficult it is trying to break through and not having the same opportunities as other artists, I used to disguise my songs, my love songs. I used to write open letters to the music industry and disguise them as love songs'. There's a song on my first album, on me Against Myself, called Good Enough. In the lyrics, you think he's talking about a girl who's not the same race as her. He's dating a girl from a different race, but it's actually an open letter to the music industry. It says, I've got my mother's skin.

I've got my father's eyes. That's something that I can't deny and that's nothing that I want to hide. Even though my roots come from the other side, they told me that they won't mind because I heard that love is blind. Then it says, How do I change a million minds in this lifetime? What is it I have to do? If I erase my history, what defines me? If I had to change my truth, would I be good enough for you? Really, it was about me talking to the music industry, saying, I'm just like you. Why are you giving me a hard of time, man? Listen to my music. Tell me if it fits in where it should fit in. But when all that stuff started to happen, I went in a bit of a... It was hard for me. I went into a little bit of a dark place because I was like, This isn't... This is meant to be fun. This is meant to be my dream. Now I'm not getting the same opportunities. I didn't know what to do about that. When my first album, when they tried to take me onto the second album at Virgin, I realized that these people don't understand me.

They don't understand my vision, my art. I'm going to go step out. Any money that I had earned off that first album and touring, I invested in myself like Celesta Stalone. That's where I did the My Own Way album, of course, why it's called My Own Way. On that album, I remember leaving Virgin and at the time being told, Don't worry, you're going to get another record deal. You've got all the success. You've got these chart hits. Of course, you're going to get signed immediately. I was like, Yeah, okay, good. I'll get signed to a label that understands me. Didn't happen. Didn't happen. Now I'm like, Well, I had four years in the game and that's it. Maybe I should have stayed with Virgin. Who else gets a major record deal and then walks away from it? Then I had to talk to my parents, tell them the situation. I've just given up a chance at being a doctor. I've had one album out, toured the world a little bit. Didn't really smash it, though, did I? For the Indians around the world, yes, I smashed it. Course, they were like, the first guy, our guy.

But in terms of mainstream, they were like, Oh yeah, that guy had a couple of songs. I remember being lost, really lost. I pretended actually to my parents that I was off to the studio working on a new album. There were times where I would get in my car and I would just drive around, park up somewhere and literally sit down in my car and go and cry.

On your own?

On my own. And just cry because I was so lost and so scared. Here's a guy who had all the big dreams in the world, a guy who worked so hard at school, two degrees. I had to just really just sit there and think about, there has to be a reason. There has to be a reason that this gift was given to me, that this blessing was given to me to be able to try to fly the flag for us. What do I do? I can't just end here. Amazingly, as the universe would have it, about two weeks later, there was this event where I was doing a meet and greet and this kid comes up to me and he's about 16, 17 at the time, hands me a CD and he goes, Hey man, I'm such a big fan. I make music. Please listen to it if you can. My contact details are on there. I said, Yeah, cool, man. Now look, when this happens, as you know, sometimes we're like, Yeah, bro, cool. But sometimes you get 100 CDs, you don't get to listen to them all. On the way home, put it in the car, listening to it.

I'm like, This beat is insane. I was like, Holy... I'm calling this guy straight away. I picked him up, picked up the phone. I was like, Where do you live? Where's your studio? He's like, Jason? I was like, Yeah, he's like, Bro, come on. I was like, No, I'm coming over now to your studio. He had a studio in his garden shed in Slough. Where is this? He had a studio in his garden shed in Slaw, and this is a fan of mine. I said, We're going to work. He's like, Dude, come on. I was like, I'm serious. It was just me and him. On that day, I wrote Write It with this kid who had just given me a demo CD. That's amazing. He had a dream. He had a lofty dream. He didn't know that I was also in a place in my life where I needed something. He needed something and I needed something. We both wanted to win. And that song was just sent, bro, and it changed everything. That song, obviously, as you.

Know-i mean, that was.

About to live.

On TikTok. -lives on TikTok. That song has had so many lives and so many edits and so many.

Like-it's insane. -it's crazy, yeah. But Itry to think, and without getting too heavy on the spiritual shit about it, I think it's because there is something special about that song. I think it's because that song, its very Genesis, came from a place of where I was at my lowest and needed so badly to be plucked out of this dark place. I needed something from up here, man. I needed something to lift me up. That song not only just did that for me, it's like a sacred song for me. It gave this kid a life. It gave him an entire career, one song. Then fast forward 12 years later, it goes and gives another guy a life. Some random dude in Lithuania who's just done a remix and put it on YouTube and then it goes on TikTok. This guy is now touring the world. -do you know what I mean? -that's crazy. It also did pretty good for me during pandemic. A little nice little pocket change for me too. It was like, it's special.

So.

There you go. That was my Rocky story. Then boom, down here in the dumps, back up. Now, Right? It's out. J. Sean version 2 is out. Shaved head, right? The spikes are gone, the shaved head. And all of a sudden, man, I got another shot at it.

The reason why I love hearing it is because I remember trying to figure out what had happened between the two albums too, and I remember as your fans were following, it was like... I can't remember, it was like, was it relentless or reckless? -yeah, relentless. -it was relentless, right? -relentless. And it was like, yeah, you were seeing that shift, and you never know what's going on on the other side. The best part about that story, though, is the randomness and allowing the randomness, because I think so often, as you become more successful, you become more closed and you become more, are you just a little kid? What do you have? And that ego, we talked about ego a few times in this conversation, it just shows me again and again and again. The thing that gets in all of our ways is our ego. Ego stops you from being creative because you're scared of what your friends will think. That's ego. Ego stops you when you start thinking you're the man getting into America. And if you would have acted in that way back at that guy, but you were like, no, no, no, I'm going to get better.

I need to get more people to know my work. And then ego again could have stopped you from going, Oh, he's a little kid. What does he know? What does he know? I'm just Sean. Everyone gives me CDs. And it's so interesting just how we have to work against our ego constantly. Destiny, and me against myself in and of itself is actually us against our ego on a daily basis. That's the real battle. The real battle is us against our ego.

It really is. It's so true, man. I think all of that ties in also, bro, to just keeping not just keeping your eyes open, but keeping your mind open. And the thing is, I always look at it like this, man. Self-awareness is obviously something that you, of course, talk about a lot. And some people go their whole life, man.

Not being self-aware.

Okay, their whole life. I think very fortunately for myself, I got it quite early on, once I started this career, I understood. Again, just like standing out as the only brown dude, I was very self-aware, I understood. Also understanding that when I came across those problems and those obstacles, I realized very quickly that my sense of humor was able to get me out of them rather than letting it destroy me. So rather than letting me go when someone says something dumb or something stupid or insensitive or culturally inappropriate, instead of getting mad and causing an argument, I would use wit and intelligence to be able to get myself out of it. Then I realized what person I was in this industry that I'm in. This industry, as you know, it can be very fake. It's hard to find connections with certain people. But if you know who you are in that space, I think you'll be okay through the highs and through the lows. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. But yeah, I love that you recognize that because it's very true. If I wasn't open to the randomness and I wasn't open to the signs, I would have missed.

You'd just miss out. And I think about that. I think we all have to reflect on our own life and go, Where do we miss out on that randomness? Us, because we've started to think that things have to be formulaic or equations or perfectly fitting or coming from the right source. Sometimes we always think, Oh, yeah, that business person will tell me the right thing or that individual, and it's like, Well, no, they could be some random person in your family or your friends group who says one thing to you that actually shoots you off in an amazing direction. I'm going to give a shout. Me and Jeremy had a call like this recently. So Jeremy said to me, he goes to me... He said to me, I called him randomly. I was on a drive, and I hadn't caught up with him for a while, so I call up Jeremy. We started having this phone call, and I had no agenda. There was no plan. It was just catching up with the mate. And he said to me randomly, he goes, Jay, I can't wait till you start a school. And I was like, Dude, what are you talking about?

That's.

A very Jeremy thing to say. It was like a huge dream. And I was like, First of all, Jeremy, I don't have kids, so I don't even know what school feels like for kids. Second of all, I feel really unqualified to start a school. I think it's actually very... There needs to be a lot of research. There needs to be a lot of understanding. Dealing with kids' mind should be dealt with extremely delicately and thoughtfully. I don't think everyone should start schools. Thirdly, sure, it's a nice idea, but I've never even thought of that as even a concept in my life. But I answered all of that, and then immediately something came to my mind. I'd love to go and study the best schools on the planet. I was like, I would love to actually go and understand, not because I want to start a school, but because I would love to understand the human mind and what we're messing up that's creating kids who cause issues in the world versus kids that get it right. Now there's lots of studies and research, but I would actually love to go and sit with parents and teachers.

I came back to my team the next day. I was like, Guys, I have to go and do this, and we have to document it. Not because I think there's content in it, I don't even know what to do with it. I just know that I would be fascinated if over the next five years I could understand more deeply how to build more compassionate children. Not because I want to start a school.

Not because I think I should-Right, but that thought wasn't even in your head until this.

Random conversation. This random conversation that my mate just said. I could be like, What does Jeremy know? I've got a content. I've got stuff going on. He's nice. He thinks he wants me to start a school, but that's it. But really, it sparked genuinely, I can't tell you how much that idea has captivated me, because I'm like, Yeah, I'd love to know how we build compassionate, empowered, confident children who change the world. I would love to understand that on a very deep, intimate and personal level. And so I started researching, like where are the best schools in the world? What are the schools that make the most creative kids? What are the schools that make the most this kids? Something like, I've got to go to the school in Spain. I've got to go to this... And I was like, Amazing travel now feels alive again. It's not like I've got to jump on a plane to do some work.

And it's for a purpose and it's something fun. I think really what you're onto there, bro, is very easy to become complacent as well. You go, This is what I do. Great. Studio at this time. I write a song. Great, blah, blah, blah. When do you find out, if we're lucky enough to have another 40, 50 years on this earth, what's going to light us up? That whole journey. I think about that constantly. If I've already done this much, I've been lucky enough, blessed enough to have 20 years in the music industry, what am I going to do for the rest of my life? What's going to light me up? What? Am I just going to retire? Am I just going to sit there and, Oh, okay, lovely. I've got my kids, I've got my family, my wife. That's lovely. It's beautiful. But I'm not like that. I need something to fire me up. Do you know what I mean? Which is, like I said, why I did this thing, all these different companies that I have created. But the biggest thing now that really lights me up, Jay, is seeing what's happening with this new generation of Asian artists.

I was about to ask you about that. It really is.

It's crazy, man. I, as you probably know, haven't done an album for a long time. A lot of people are like, Jay, man, when are you going to do another album? You know what my answer always was? There's what I said, honestly, is what I used to say. Nobody cares about an album anymore. They just want music, content. Let's say your favorite, Ice. Let's just say Drake, for example. Let's just say you're waiting for a Drake album and it's like, All right, guys, I'm going to be back in three years. I'm going to just work really hard on this. In this day and age that we're in with our attention spans, ain't no one waiting three years, bro. No one's waiting, which is why he could churn one out a year, clearly, but that's Drake. But people don't want to wait around. I used to just say, I said, Forget album. That model is old. It's an old notion. I'll just keep giving you music. I'll just keep putting it up. It's on my Spotify, it's on my Apple Music. I did that consistently for years. Through doing that, I just spend a lot of time on these streaming platforms.

I started discovering all this music, which to me was reminiscent of what me, Rishy and juggy were doing 20 years ago. All of a sudden you had these kids from India singing in Punjabi, but they're singing over like a drill beat.

There's an English vocal on there from some random artist. I was like, This fusion stuff is happening again, except this time it's happening with these 20-year-old kids who are living in India, who have basically grown up with access to the internet. From the moment they're born, they got this device. Yeah, of course, they listen to Bollywood and they listen to all this stuff, but they're also listening to Travis Scott, and they're listening to Eminem, Rihanna, whatever it is. That was us 20 years ago. When I tell you something happened inside me, it just started bubbling. I was like, I need to get in front of these kids. I need to soak up their energy. It's that youthful energy, that excitement, because they're not jaded.

They haven't even stepped into the industry yet. They're just kids having fun. That's who I was 20 years ago, and it lit me up. I said to Jeremy, and of course, it was the best news he ever heard, I was like, Jeremy, that's it. Decided, man. He was like, You're what? An album. I was like, Yep, and we're going to India. That's where we're doing it. He was like, Great. I've never been to India. I was like, Well, this is going to be fun for you, bro. Well, we did. We went to India this year and I recorded three-quarters of my album in India with these guys, these immensely talented kids whose faces were just lit up from music. There was no journey. They hadn't even been on a journey yet. There were no obstacles. There were no problems. There were no highs and lows. It was just love for music. And this album for me now, I'm so excited about it because, again, it came from a place of joy and excitement. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. And it's so interesting how even that with the... Going back to your Rocky Story example, there's Rocky Five where he trains Tommy Gunn. And it's like that whole feeling of he gets his enthusiasm back because he's back in there. He's with a young guy who reminds him of himself. Exactly. Again, there's such a need for us to always go and be with the beginner again and go to the source again. And we miss out on that in life because the higher you get, again, less randomness means you spend time with the same people. You're not spending time with the person who's at the grassroots, who's got their finger on the pulse, and all of a sudden, again, you're disconnected.

Yeah, you're disconnected.

Yeah, completely disconnected.

And that's so right, man. I felt myself going... I felt like through my journey and through 20 years, what's really interesting is that it's very easy to age yourself out the game. It is. I think it's funny. I don't know if any of the other artists who you've had on your podcast have ever talked about this. Ageism is a funny thing in the music industry.

I don't think we have. Yeah, I don't.

Think we have. In the music industry is weird. If you're an actor, it's brilliant. You just get to play older roles. Yeah.

And.

Sometimes they become even better because they've been active for so many years and now.

Now I feel like the main actors in movies are 50 years old. That's the standard age if you actually check.

Their ages. Yeah, it's really interesting. So in a way, the more time you spend there, the more years you put into that craft will actually pay off. Let's say if I was a doctor right now, I'd probably be a consultant within a few years. The more years you put in, you step up the ladder. Whereas with music, the more years you put in, it's like you're ending, you're going closer towards the finish line, and they're like, Come on, mate, enough now. Get off stage. No one wants to see a 50-year-old dancing around. It's a very weird thing. Again, if I didn't have a sense of humor about that, I could be like, Who are you to tell me? When to stop working. Who are you to tell me I'm too old to be on that stage? Who are you to tell me that I have not done anything great since that song or this song? But I do understand. I do understand. But it's awkward and cringeworthy at some point. If you see some people who aren't self-aware enough to understand that, bro, maybe you shouldn't be dancing right now. Go and sit on a stool, make the song acoustic, and let's just get that audience.

Yeah, being able to let go of a former identity that worked.

That's right. That's so interesting. And the thing is, quite often we're frozen in time. I'm frozen in time. On those plaques in my house and in Jeremy's house, there's a baby face, Jay Sean. I look at him and I see that young boy and I see what he's achieved and I'm proud of him. But I'm also very aware that maybe I don't want to keep doing this 10 years down the line. Who knows? I mean, truth be told, I'm sure Snoop and all these guys said that they wouldn't be rapping.

I feel like your favorite artist redoing songs that are either nostalgic. I think nostalgia is such a big part of music, right? Of course it is. You listen to music to feel that way again. Exactly. For me with Usher too, I don't think Ashaed has made a load of new music recently. But it's like to me when he did You Remind Me, obviously, and there was this scene in the You Remind Me video where the song shuts off, but he's on that silhouette of that. You know which one to the one, right? Yeah, of course. The Sun's in the background. And he did that on stage. And for me, I was just like, That's all I want to see, because to me, it's like, That is exactly where I was at 16. I remember trying to do the moves and failing, and I still fell.

At that. Why do you think I.

Don't dance, mate? But that's the thing. And it's like if Eminem picks up a mic ever, I will be there. I would just sit and watch. I mean, watching Beckham in his documentary take three kicks. I'd happily watch David Beckham play football any day of the week because there's a feeling there that you'll never get because nostalgia is built that way. Nostiology will never change. If you had a positive experience watching Rocky, I can still watch Rocky because me and my dad used to watch Rocky together. There you go. So it will never... Rocky will never, ever be old or boring for me because I watched Rocky a million times.

Bro, I know every word, all of them, even Rocky Five, even though they say it's the bad one, I still love it. I love Rocky Five, though. I still love it. But bro, you bring up such a good point. It's such a true point. Which is why, if you go to Vegas, why all of the biggest acts are nostalgic acts, but they put you in a place where you just feel... They transport you back in time. What can ever transport you back in time as well as music does? Totally nothing. You know where you were, what you were wearing, what girl you were dating, all of that stuff. When you listen to a song, you know where you were, and it's a beautiful thing. But it's really funny. You reminded me of something when you said about the Rocky thing, and you were saying, again, just to go back to that, the other day when I was watching his documentary, it's not going to spoil anything for you, some of the scenes are in his house in L. A. You've probably been to his.

House on the phone. I haven't. I've only met him once and he was amazing. Dude, I was-Yeah, I've only met him once and he's amazing.

But it wasn't at his house. I'm so glad he lived up to what you.

Wanted him to be. He did. He was awesome, yeah.

But here's a guy who's been acting for what, 50 years now? 50. 50 years in the game. And what was his biggest breakthrough hit? Rocky. Rocky won biggest breakthrough hit. But then 50 years of more films. Now, if Syinvestia Stalone is walking down Sunset Boulevard and me and my mates or whoever was there and they saw him, Oh, my God!, or just any person sees him, what do you think he hears every day of his life? Yo Adrian! Yo Rocky! That's what we do. Now, he could take that in one or two ways, couldn't he? He could either go, Shut up. I've done a hundred films. Why do you keep going back to Rocky? Or he could go, Yo.

I get it.

Because I love Rocky too. Rocky, for me, changed my life. I know you guys love Rocky. Totally. He took Rocky, his baby that changed his whole life. Instead of rejecting it and going, You remind me of the fact that maybe I've never topped you. Instead of doing that, he's like, Come here. I'll put a massive statue of myself as Rocky in my swimming pool, in my house, and I will have all the Rocky memorabilia all around my house, and I will embrace you, and I will be.

Grateful for you.

I really love that, because I think the problem as artists is that sometimes we want to... When we do a show, people are waiting, man, and you go see Michael Jackson, it's Michael Jackson. He has some of the biggest, best songs on planet Earth, one of the biggest pop stars that ever lived. What are people waiting for? And you want to see him do his dance and moonwalk? Yeah. And he's probably like, I'm Michael Jackson. And that's what you're waiting for, Billy June? Yeah.

Oh, great.

Of course they are. Because that's why they fell in love with him and that's why they fell in love with Rocky. And they're the people who, for me in America, man, they fell in love with Down. So when I do my shows and stuff like that, whatever it is, even if I've got new songs, I'm not turning my concert into me. I'm not turning it into, Hey, guys, I know that loads of songs that you guys want to hear, but I'm actually going to spend the next 45 minutes singing my brand new album. I'm not doing it. They don't care because they don't know it. The show is for them.

It's such a good point. I love this idea of whether it's age, whether it's time, whether it's changes in life, there is a part of your identity where you have to shed, you have to let go. Everyone has to do that. And what's amazing is I actually saw what you just said you don't do happen recently. I won't name the artist. I'll tell you afteryou. I'll tell you afterwards. Right. He comes on stage and we're waiting for this song, right? Waiting. And he's the first act before the main stage, but he's still an artist that I love. And I'm waiting for the song. The beat comes on and we're all there. Yes, me and Radhi and our friends that we run with are really excited. Then 10 seconds into the track, they cut the beat and he goes, You think I'm going to do that here? You think I'm going to give you that whole song? He goes, I've got 30 years of songs to give you. Then he goes and plays all these songs that we didn't recognize, and he actually did that. I was like, You just took away my moment, bro. I wanted you to do that song.

-that's right. -not because I'm limiting you, not because I think you have no other hits. You actually are really talented. But that song is so special and iconic that I need to hear it. You need to hear it. And I felt like 10 seconds of it was all he gave us, and then he never went back to it. I thought, Oh, maybe give it 10 seconds. He'll go back, set, finish, didn't get it. That's exactly that feeling of like, it's our own stuff. But you're saying we're dealing with that. We're all dealing with that. We all have a trapped identity somewhere. All of us have what you're saying somewhere, and somehow we're actually mad at it, and we're annoyed by it. Right, it's so true, rather than welcoming and embracing it. I think about that. It's been 10 years since I left the monastery. I'm a very different, externally a very different person today. I'm married, I have businesses, we have media, we changed where we live, like so many things. But at my heart, I'm the same person. I'm a very different externally. My life has different things. Of course, I've changed. People change.

There's parts of me they've changed, but I embrace that experience. It's a massive part of me. But I found that whether you embrace or reject, people always have an issue with it because it doesn't make sense to them. If it doesn't fit into their version of how they perceive you, it's complicated. And I think for me, I've learnt to accept that I need to give myself permission to be who I am today, to be who I was 10 years ago and who I will be 10 years from now. And I promise you it won't be the same. And I need to give myself permission to allow that. And I think we, like you said, when you see Sylvester Spalow give himself permission, we had on the podcast recently. I know, I heard it. It's amazing. He's the same. He has the original Terminator outfit in his place. He has Alien. He has everything. And he loves it. He really loves it. And I love him for it because I'm like, Yeah, bro, you do. You should be proud of yourself. You should be proud of yourself. -of course. You crushed it. -you should be proud.

He's not trying to be the Terminator anymore. He's not trying to be... But he loves it. He loves doing... When my social media manager asked him a question on the way out and said, Do you have any last words? And you're like, I'll be back. And I'm like, He loves it. He loves it, and I love it. And I love it.

For-give them what they want. Yeah, and I.

Love him for it, and he's not disingenuous. He's not inauthentic. He's not stuck in the past. He's a really... He was great to chat to. And so, yeah, man, all these people were talking about, but Jay, I could talk to you for hours. We can literally do this. I know, man. I think we have been. Yeah, we have been. I could genuinely talk to you for hours, and I love this. And I think what I love about this conversation genuinely is I feel like we've drawn like you pulled out Rocky. I think because we have that, we've drawn this really nice arc and narrative for people. And I hope everyone who's listening and watching this, I really hope that you find your own Rocky journey genuinely in your own way, as you've seen mirrored in your life that you've shared so wonderfully today. But Jay, we end every episode with a final five or the fast five. Jay-shawne, these are your fast five. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

Spend so much time on self-improvement that you have no time to criticize others.

Love it. That is great advice, and no one's ever said it on the show. Second question. What is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?

It sounds so stupid, but it's like when you get the big money, nobody told me how to spend it or invest it.

It's a great point. Right?

And nobody told me about that. Go buy some houses instead of wasting on stuff like that. I wish I actually just got some advice on that, how to manage money.

Yeah, that's good. I hope everyone who's coming into new money is hearing that. Question number three. What has been the gift of parenting that you didn't expect? Because I know you're a great dad.

Dad is no longer the world is no longer about me. My job is no longer about me. My life is no longer about me. It's all about, it's all for my kids. All of this now is for my kids. It's the most beautiful thing, is there's nothing more grounding than when you can be a pop star and famous around the world, but you come home and you're just daddy. It really is the cutest.

Question number four: What is the thing that surprised you most about the music industry in 20 years?

How much of a change technology would have on it? It's literally flipped it on its head. It is a totally different animal. There's 120,000 new songs that come out every day now. Every day? Every day, 120,000 new songs come out. So you imagine trying to get yours, it's just a needle in a haystack. So many people can be independent. You could do whatever you want. Don't need that big record deal anymore. Although I do have a record company that I've started for South Asian talent. That's my way of giving back.

I'm so excited about.

That by the way. That is brilliant. And that's what I want to use all of my 20 years for, bro. All of my experience is to now pass it on to the next generation. I have experienced it. I know all about it now, so now it's my turn to be able to help other.

People through it. I love that you're doing that as well because I think there's such a need for that support. I was probably the two... I was the guy watching Jump Off, but too scared to go on.

Well, that's it, I know you love rap. I might have to.

Sign you, mate. No, I think the age there, bro, I'm like... But no, the idea of like there's just... I'm so happy that you're doing that. Honestly, when I heard about that, that was amazing. Thank you very much. I'm so sad I couldn't come to the event. I was on a plane, I was out of town. Fifth and final question. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

The obvious thing for me to think that the world is missing right now is kindness. So what... What if there was a law that every person that you meet, you had to do a kind act? What if there was a law that you had to do one random act of kindness a day? I think that could go on to make the world a better place. -yeah, that would be beautiful. -i think so. -i love it. -even if you didn't want to do it, if it was a law and you knew you had to do a random act of kindness for somebody, that could have a knock-on effect.

Yeah, because it would make you do it. -even end of the day, you have to figure it out. -exactly.

I love it.

Jay, Sean, everyone. I'm so grateful, Jay. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you, brother.

-so I'm so excited.

-thank you for having me. Yeah, this.

Was so much fun. I knew it would be yapping on for hours. I don't even know how long.

I don't know. I'll have to ask these guys. But no, that was awesome, man. Thank you, brother. I'm so excited for people to continue to listen to your new album on Spotify. Where do you like... Actually, that's a great question. As a musician, where do you like people to discover.

Your work now? Well, obviously the streaming platforms is where it's all out, right? So everybody knows whatever they have a favorite streaming platform, whatever you like, it will obviously be up on there. But really also I love being on TikTok, man.

I know you do.

Tiktok for me is actually a really cathartic tool because it allows me to... My silly, goofy sense of humor, it allows me to just be a human being rather than just an artist. So yeah, if you guys want to just follow me on TikTok, it's just @jshown and all of the usual stuff is very easy. It's just @jshown everywhere. Love it. Thank you, man. -yeah, man.

Brother, thank you. -i appreciate it, man. -that was so much fun, man. If you love this episode, you'll really enjoy my episode with Celina Gomez on befriending your inner critic and how to speak to yourself with more compassion.

My fears are only going to continue to show me what I'm capable of. The more that I face my fears, the more that I feel I'm gaining strength and gaining wisdom, and I just want to keep doing that.

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Listen to Come Back Stories. I'm Darren Waller. You might know me as a tie-in for the New York giants, or some of you might know me from my story of struggling with and beating addiction to become a pro ball tie-in. With me, I have my friend and co-host, Donnie Starkins, who is a yoga instructor and a personal development coach. Catch us every week on Come Back Stories on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.