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My whole life now revolves around what I've achieved on the court. But then if I could do it again, I wouldn't ever want to pick up a rocket. He's one of the greatest players in the world. Winner of seven to a.

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Health and wellness podcast. On Purpose with Jay Shetty. Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place where we have culturally impacting conversations. I am so grateful to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn, and grow. And you know that ever since I was a teenager, I've been captivated by people's stories and journeys. I'm fascinated by decisions people make, their personalities, their psychology. And today's guest is someone that I've been admiring from afar for such a long time. And to have him in the studio today is a true honor and true joy. I love diving into the minds of people that define culture, divide culture, direct us in different ways, surprise us and give us the unexpected. And today's guest has been doing that ever since his career began. I'm talking about the one and only nick Kirios, who burst onto the pro tennis scene in 2012 after a prolific junior tennis career. Since Nick's start, he has captivated fans with a larger-than-life personality, passion for the game, and unpredictability. Nick electrifies the tour with his near-unstoppable serve and powerful forehand. Nick has won seven singles titles and four doubles titles in his career.

But 2022 marked the first time nick displayed his dominance, making it to his first Grand Slam final, winning three singles titles and three doubles titles. Welcome to the show, nick Curious.

nick.

What an intro. You had to live it, man.

You had to do it. I like that. That's probably the best intro I've ever had.

Really? Yeah, I like it. That means the world to me, man.

I appreciate that. Thank you. Thanks, man. I'm really glad to be here. I was excited.

I appreciate that, man. When we were messaging back and forth for the past couple of weeks, I was really looking forward to this because as I was saying to you earlier, I don't love rules myself, and people don't often see me as that. I think people see me as someone who follows the rules and is thoughtful and mindful. I actually feel that my entire career, I've had to go against the trend and against the grain. And watching you do it has been really exciting and fascinating, and sometimes it can be uncomfortable to watch that as well. But today we get to pull back. Unravel it all. Yeah, we get to dive in. I wanted to start off, there's so many things I want to talk about. What I'll start off with is externally, you've had what looks like a love-hate relationship with tennis. And at this point, you're injured, you've been away from the game. I'm intrigued to understand how has your relationship with the game changed when you haven't been able to play it?

This is a tough one for me because when I step away from the sport for so long, I actually don't miss it. So that's scary for me. Most athletes, when they get pulled away from their sport injury or take time off, they're really hungry to get back with me. I've always known that life has so many cool things about it. And tennis, when we're traveling seven, eight months a year, I barely see my family, my friends. And during this time, I get to spend time with my partner more, my family, to all these things that I've been missing out on. It's like, Wow, my life is amazing now. But I do miss playing tennis. It's all I've ever known since I was seven years old. My family loves it. All my friends know me as nick Kiro's tennis player. I do miss it a little bit, but at the same time, I've really enjoyed the time off.

Yeah, I'm glad to hear that. It's good for the honesty, I think. People forget that we're human and we need a break sometimes. What's your earliest childhood memory that you think has defined who you are today?

Well, I hated tennis when I was young, so I was very chubby, overweight as a kid, and my mom, she was like, Okay, we got to get you doing some sport or be active. So she dragged me down to the local tennis courts, and I remember I was crying all day, hated it, didn't want to be there. Anyway, I gave it a chance for a couple of weeks, a couple of months. The coach was like, Oh, he's picking it up pretty quickly. And then I guess that was a defining moment because ever since that coach said that, it's like my father and my mom put everything into tennis. They sacrificed. My dad and my mom had nothing growing up. I guess they saw me as the person in the family to eventually try and make it and help them out and help the family out. Look, tennis was such an interesting journey. I never thought I was 17, 18, still in school. And people were telling me, You could really do something. I never took myself seriously enough to one day be on the tour, beating people like Jockovich, the dull fedder. It was just never in my mind.

And then all of a sudden it just happened and my life changed. I have big imposter syndrome. I'm sitting here, I watch you, my bed in my house in Canberra. I'm watching you and then now all of a sudden I'm here having a conversation. That's just, for me, it's crazy.

Well, dude, I feel the same with you. I'm watching you play all the major tournaments and watching you on Break Point, and I still have to pinch myself that I get to do this. The feeling is very mutual, and I want you to know that too. And a big part that for me watching you is, I think, and I chose not to introduce you this way, but I think a lot of people would introduce you as the bad boy of tennis. How does that type of thought or make you feel today?

Yeah, it's been hard. That's one thing the media has done. They've branded me as, I don't know. I'm crazy, I'm a bad boy. But my family and my closest people know that I'm quite generous, I'm quite caring, I'm intellectually switched on. I like having deep conversations, and I try my best to make other people feel comfortable. I know what it's like to be overweight, insecure. When I see kids that are a bit like, I guess, myself at a younger age, I love that. I go up to them, I make them feel, Look, if I can do it, you can do it. That's been one of the hardest things in my career, is like everyone I meet thinks that I'm just a bad person. I've got crazy tempo. But then off the court, it's like a complete opposite person. It's been really, really hard to shake that. And it's taken years. Only now I feel like people understand how I am on the court and how I am off the court, but it's been hard.

How early did that title set in? That idea of nick Kirios, meltdown again. Nick Kirios, Break, Breaks a bracket, whatever. How early did that set in and how did that impact it?

Probably the first couple of years I was on tour, and that was almost 11 years ago. And it's been an uphill battle ever since. Everyone thinks that I'm that type of person, but I've gone through my whole life trying to prove to people that that's not me. And it's been really hard. All the media backlash, the negativity, all the negativity on my family, my partner. It hasn't been so easy to navigate. But I think getting older and growing through it and getting thick skin, I've given up trying to make everyone understand who I am because it's exhausting and I don't think it's possible. Everyone's going to have their opinions, but it's taken a toll. I'm definitely a bit tired of being branded that. It's sad in a way because people only really want to get to meet me, to meet that side of me, which is not how I actually am as a person.

How much of it early on was self-inflicted versus was that just you trying to deal with the pressure and the stress? Why did that? I've met you just now. You're smiling, you're easy to be around, you're chill, you're cool. When we were messaging, I was telling my team, This guy seems like one of the nicest guys. Everything you just said. But then when someone watches you on the court or watches you in a press interview, you could be intimidating. How much of that became a persona you felt you ended up playing versus where did it actually start? Was it that you were stressed and there was pressure?

Well, I guess, yeah. When I'm on court, I turn into a different person. I love competing and it's like I hate losing. I guess even when I was a younger kid on the court, I always carried my emotions. I would cry on court, I would scream. I'd love to compete and hate to lose. I guess I never changed. I don't cry on court now, but I still am very emotional and it just shows how much I care. I feel like it was a way for me to outlet the pressure, get angry, or smash a rocket. But the thing is, tennis can go for four or five hours. A match can go for four or five hours. And then for that small snippet of time, 20 seconds, 30 seconds, I'm losing my mind. And that's all they're showing. If you just show 30 minutes of a four-hour match, then everyone's going to show you, That's how he's carrying on for four hours. The majority of the time, I'm well-behaved, great competitor, respecting my opponent. Then I turn on the TV, it's just me smashing the rack, and I'm like, I can't control that. It's been hard.

Most of the time I am how I am now, but it's been a tough one.

Yeah, you were saying, I've watched how you talked about how it's impacted you, it's impacted how people communicate with your girlfriend, the backlash that you receive. What has been the darkest, hardest period of dealing with that? Whether it may be a media narrative or fans reaching out, whatever it may be.

Yeah, in 2019, I've opened up about some of the darkest periods of my life. It was so accessible, all these negative comments. You go on your phone now, you open up social media, Instagram, Twitter, all this. I just say millions of messages that were negative, negative about my family, just things that I feel like I didn't ever really listen to, but they just went into the back of my mind. Subconsciously, they're just there. Then when things start happening, you're like, Maybe they're right, you start doubting yourself. I feel like that's what I fell into. It was like, Oh, maybe they are right. Then I started feeling really negatively about myself and I started all these bad habits happening. It was impossible for me to deal with. I was 19 at the time when this all started happening and I wasn't prepared for, I guess, such a hard time. I was just enjoying myself. I had normal friends. Then I went from being in school to now being on the global stage in the spotlight. It was just impossible for me to deal with. I never really dealt with it in a healthy way at all.

Yeah, you talked about in Breakpoint about drugs, alcohol, isolating yourself. You talk about even considering attempting suicide. And then we hear that you locked into a psych ward, but we don't really realize what you went through. Walk us through what it felt like to be nick Iarios in 2019.

It's just I think about those times and I don't necessarily feel sad about him or happy about him. It's just that part of my life is over and it's just a mess. I think about that time, I just was not thinking clearly. I was drinking every night. At the time, I thought it was just fun, but it wasn't fun. It was just self-inflicted pain. I had friends around me telling me it wasn't healthy, and I ignored them. Then I found myself going to a psychiatric ward in London and I had to play in a dull the next day. These are the things like everyone would assume that I was doing fine. I was answering questions and they told me that I should stay in this psychiatric ward for two weeks and be reassessed. I was playing a dull the next day. I looked at myself, I was like, I can't do this. I have to somehow change these habits. I had self-harm everywhere. I had to wear an arm sleeve on the center court of Wimbledon. No one knew any of these problems and it was hard. I looked back and I just don't know how I got out of it, to be honest.

I was such a mess. The worst thing was the media. I was having decent results during that time and the media was like, Okay, is this a new Nikiro? I said, Is this a Nicur? And I was like, This is the darkest period of my life. There was a tournament in Mexico, Acapulco, where I was thinking about... I was having suicidal thoughts and I was just on the balcony of my hotel, and I was genuinely thinking about it. And my team was like, Oh, we're going to play in ten minutes. Ended up going out on court, played amazing, won the tournament. And everyone globally was thinking, Wow, is this the person that we've all been waiting for? When I was really on the brink of everything. And that's so scary because no one else knew what was going on. It was really hard.

I mean, that paradox of feeling that way and then having to play the biggest games and then even winning some of them, but then feeling that way when you're off court again, that sounds like one of the most difficult. Just listening to you right now. I'm listening to that going, I was just putting myself in that position thinking you're sitting, standing there at the balcony. I can't imagine what's going through your mind. How did you break through that? How is that not the end? Because I feel there's so many people listening right now who might be feeling like you were then, and I want you to talk to them. I want them to hear you right now because I want this to be the message that they say, That got me through it.

I felt like I was very selfish at that time. I was always giving into my feelings, which were probably valid, but I felt like I was playing just based on how I felt. And then I looked back at millions of fans that I have. For instance, there was a Make-A-Wish kid that I met up with a week and a half ago. He's probably got six months to live. And then I realized that those types of people that look up to me and really want me to succeed, that's who I started playing for. So family, these kids, the future generation, that's the reason why I probably would have retired and probably stopped playing in a couple of years ago if I just kept playing on how I was feeling. But then I realized I've got a whole contingent of fans on why they want to see me succeed. So that's why I love playing now. I play for them, but that's what got me out of it. I started feeling like I've got a lot more to give. Not for me. I've already proved myself that I can play tennis. But for all those people out there, if I can do it, you look at Jockovich, Fedar, and you're like, These people are gods in my eyes.

They're super professional. Jockovich takes care of his diet daily. I was not doing any of these things and still getting to that level. I think just the inspiration for other people got me out of that. But it was really those times... There are definitely times now where I think about those moments and I still get a bit emotional on it. Breakpoint obviously showed interviews with my sister and my father and my best friend, and they break down into tears. That just shows how emotional that time was because they could just see me spiraling out of control. I didn't think it was okay to just step back and not play. I kept thinking I had to force myself to get out there. Yeah, definitely, it was traumatizing.

How much did it mean to you that they stood by you?

Yeah, I probably owe them my life, to be honest. They were standing by me through reckless behavior. That's what I mean. People now, I go on social media and they're like, Oh, you're a waste of talent. Or, Why are you not playing? Or, Why are you not doing this? Everything I'm doing now is just a bonus. Being here, speaking to Jay Sheddy for me, it's like a bonus. Every day, I just don't think about the past, I don't think about the future. I just live every day, day by day. Everything I'm doing now is just a bonus because I was so depressed and so sad. I literally wanted to end my life. And now I'm just here and enjoying it. Everything is just all a bonus.

Yeah, that's a beautiful way to live. Yeah, it is. To know that. Yeah, it's a beautiful mindset to.

Live in. I just stay with my feet. I don't think about the past. I'm not a big planner anymore. Well, because I just don't know anything can be taken away just like that.

I think listening to you, it's so interesting, right? When we have views on athletes, especially where we're like, Oh, you could have been this, and you could have been the next greatest, and you could have been whatever it may be. And the challenge is you have no idea what that person is going through. You have no idea what's worrying that person. And I think everyone almost projects their own insecurities onto everyone else, where we also feel like we have so much potential that never got seen, that never got untapped, and to almost live in the way you're living now, which is like I'm already living in bonus land. I feel like that in so many ways in my life, where I am able to do things today that I couldn't even have imagined as a kid. And we can actually... We have a lot in common growing up because I was, and I heard you say this and I felt the same way, I was a short, brown, fat kid growing up at school. And so when you talked about that in Breakpoint, I felt exactly the same way where I was bullied for it.

I was beaten up for it. I was criticized for it. And when I look at my life today, I'm like, I get to do things that I didn't ever think were possible. I'm already living in bonus world.

And you're so grateful.

For it. So grateful for it. So grateful for it beyond. And whether I reach the potential what people think I should do or whether I don't, I'm already living in that gratitude. With you, when you're playing at the top level and there is that feeling, so when you find out you've made it through to the final of Wimbledon, walk me through what the feeling is when you know I've made it through to the final of Wimbledon, which is the biggest stage, the biggest moment you've made it through. What does that feel like?

I was laughing inside. I had Novak Jockovich behind me. I had the Royal family watching me play, and there's like, Guards there. And I'm just thinking to myself, This shouldn't be me. The way that everything had panned out, it was like I just thought it was all a joke. I was like, This is incredible. How am I here in this moment in time? I was walking out to the court and I just, Yeah, because every single thing that I'd gone through: training, family, sacrifice, it all... That's the one time in my life where everything made sense. Everything made sense. Every gym session, conditioning session, every good meal I decided to eat was all equal to that moment in time. It's like I didn't sleep the night before. Then as soon as I stepped on court, all those feelings went away. It was like, Okay, now I'm home. Then I lost the match, but I played incredible. It was a great final. But I just remember seeing the doors open real slowly and I saw every blade of grass the same length, and I just walked out there and it was just like home. Then that was it.

I'm not disappointed that I lost the match. Obviously, I would love to have a Wimbledon crown, but it was all a bonus. The fact that I was just walking out, NoVAX behind me, the royal family is there. Like nick, Kiri, I was making it that far, ridiculous.

When I hear you speak, you speak like every almost like real... It's almost like that childlike feeling of like you're still living in that childlike moment or childlike feeling of what that would have felt like, where sometimes we grow up too soon and we almost can't experience it that way. When you just said you saw every blade of grass being the same, even that mindfulness, like watching the doors, the fact that you can visualize it, and it means you are so present. What goes through your mind during the game when it's not going your way? What happens when you start losing a point or when you know you could have made something you didn't like? What's going through your mind at that time?

Just competing, just trying to get the best out of myself. I guess people, when they watch me play, like Why did you get so angry? It's like, There's millions of dollars on the line, so many hours of work put in, and I'm just trying to do the best I can in that moment in time. People, when they see me, I guess, getting angry or doing whatever, they're like, Oh, he doesn't care. I don't think I care too much at times on the result. And coaches always tell me, Don't care about the result too much. But in my life, in my experience, if you don't win at the end of the day, I wouldn't be here. If I didn't win majority of tennis matches, I wouldn't be sitting here. So I know the importance of winning. But at the same time, I guess I'm just so involved in every little bit of effort. I know my family's effort, my support crew. I want everyone in my team to feel that I care the most. I want to be like success for all of us. I don't care about just me. My physio is there, my partner is there, my best friend, my agent.

We're all contingent. And that's why I guess I love the team environment a little bit more. But tennis is people just think you're on your own out there, but there's so much more than just me. Everyone's put so much work in to get here.

Your anger is actually your care.

Exactly. I wanted to win Wimbledon so then my whole team can share that with me. I don't really care. I actually don't really care. And I wanted to win Wimbledon so I could just shut everyone up and so I could be just left alone. So if I'm at home and I'm actually having a beer or I'm just chilling, people will just, What are you doing? I'm like, I won Wimbledon. You can't tell me anything. You're immortal in that tennis world.

I.

Made the final and people still criticize me. I feel like if I'd won that, maybe it would stop.

So you feel like when you're playing, you're trying to win because you feel so many people have invested in you and so many people believe in you, the people that you care about, and that you almost want to win for them?

Yes, and to shut everyone else up as well. That would be nice.

I'm excited to see you go on and win. A few. I think you have the potential and the ability and the mindset to go and do it. But when you go and win, you know as well as I do that, that still won't shut people up.

I know that. You know that. It's just false hope, I guess.

What is that false hope? Walk me through that, because I think that's real. I think we all feel... This is the hypothesis. We all feel that there's something we can do that will finally convince people of who we are. And we're all waiting in our own way to do that thing. For you, it may be a game of tennis. For someone else, it might be a promotion. For someone, it will be graduating with a particular degree. For me, it will be interviewing someone, whatever. We all have that thing where we think, When I do this, then people will say I've made it. Why is that?

I don't know. I feel like if people really understood my journey, then they wouldn't be so pushy, I think. If I just sat down with all my haters and we had a nice meal together and I gave them my side of story, I think they'd have a better understanding and they wouldn't be so... They wouldn't criticize or be so aggressive towards me on social media or just in general. I feel like maybe if I do win Wynwooden and we wouldn't. I was so close and I don't even really love the sport, I'm only doing this because I love taking care of my family, my people, and I want to do this so I can prove that no matter how much more of an underdog you are, you can achieve something like winning Wynwooden. I never thought in my mind that I would be capable of doing that. Look, mate, you are right. I know that even if I did that, people are going to be like, All right, now do it again. I guess that's the rat race of life. How much is enough? I'm very content with my life now. I have more than enough to enjoy.

If it was up to me, I probably would. I don't really want to play anymore, to be honest, but I have to almost. I've got so much more to give. But for me, I don't feel like playing anymore.

And that's not your way of taking.

The pressure? No, it's not. I'm exhausted, I'm tired. I have had three surgeries now that I'm only 28 years old. I always wanted to be able to have a family and not be in pain. When I get up, I can't walk without pain. So it's a tough gig. It's tough.

I appreciate the realness because there's a couple of things that come to mind. The first thing that comes to mind for me is always I'm a Cristiano Ronaldo fan through and through. If anyone asks me, CR7 or Messi, I'm CR7 all the way. He's the example for me of you can achieve everything, and there'll still be 50 % of people-Who.

Think that someone.

Else is better. Yeah, someone else is better. And not even just better, they think you're not even in the conversation. There's a 50 % of people who will be like, well, CR7 doesn't even make it into the top two conversation. And it's bizarre that you can even feel that way. And so I look at it through that perspective where I'm like, this guy's won everything. He's inspired pretty much every next generation of football players in the world. Yet there are people who have an issue with him and blows my mind. And then at the same time, what you're talking about, the reality, I appreciate you saying I'm exhausted. It's hard. I remember an interview that Vanessa Bryant did, Kobe Bryant's wife, and she talked about how the only thing that got Kobe to play when he was injured or having an injury during a game was his love for the fans. And he would say that, This fan paid to see me play. And if I don't play today, then that fan may never be able to afford to play again, and so I have to play. And so he was playing for Beyond Him.

It wasn't, I've got to play because I've got to win another rim. It's really interesting to hear an athlete say, I'm tired, it's a tough gig, it's hard, because I think we almost want to believe that the best athletes don't feel that. But that's not true.

No, it's not true. I guess that period in 2019 accelerated my exalt. If I had a bit of a normal career and I flew under the radar, I don't feel I'd feel this way. But those couple of years really, I think, put a lot on my age. I'm 28, but I feel like I've traveled to pretty much every country. I've seen cultures. I was traveling to countries when I was 13 and I saw what poverty was like. It really opened my eyes. I guess those couple of years accelerated my... Almost pushed me to the end of my career a bit earlier because I felt that way and I was so eternally hurting that I had to play for more than myself. And that's why now I do. I'm exhausted when I train. I don't want people to watch us and say, Okay, soft or whatever, but it's just hard. I am tired. I'm tired of playing tennis. It's more than going out last year had the best year in my career. I'm playing in front of millions of people, stadiums packed out, everyone's eyes on me. I don't know if an athlete loves that, but I'm a bit to that.

I feel like a circus animal a little bit. I walk out there and like, Oh, we just want to see Kiro do something crazy. I'm sick of playing that role. I'm sick of playing like… I have to turn to a completely different person, and I don't like that. It's exhausting.

Do you think when you come back, how are you trying to figure out how you'll approach it differently? Have you thought about that?

I think now I've come to peace with I only want to play for about another one to two years and be at the top and go down my own terms. I wouldn't hate to have another surgery or anything like that. I think I've still got the ability to have a good one to two years, and then that's it. I think I'll be at peace with everything I've achieved. You're right. I'm going to have to just say, Look to everyone out there who wants me to play more, you're just going to have to be okay with me not playing anymore.

Yeah, well, people are trying to figure out whether you'll be playing in December. You obviously, like you said, you're in pain even when you stand up. How do you deal with that anxiety of people want me to play in December? I don't even know if I'll be better yet. Do I enter? How do you.

Navigate that? It's hard because I'm going to the gym, I'm doing my rehab. You might have something seriously wrong with your body and it takes time. I'm only human. I'd love to be like a NoVAK or someone that just is always healthy almost. It seems that way, but it takes months and months of strength, consistency, dealancy to get back to playing tennis at that high level again. I don't want to get back on tour and just play decent. I was competing for Grand Slam, so I want to get back to that level. It might take a bit more time.

I want to go back a few things when you were saying if you could take all your haters out for dinner and hang with them. Imagine we were at dinner and all the haters are here right now. What do you want them to know about you to understand you deeply? If you could say three things to them to understand you more deeply and intently, what would you genuinely at the heart want them to know if we had the floor with them right now?

I would want to listen to them more. I'd be like, Why do you dislike me so much? Because I feel like when I'm reading all these comments, they really truly don't like me. I feel like I don't dislike anyone that I don't know. I just think it's ridiculous to have an opinion or that person this way. I have no idea who they are or how they are. I would just ask them like, Why do you dislike me so much? Then I would make them open up. Because I think, for instance, I use my girlfriend as an example. My reputation in Australia is arrogant, he's crazy, he's volatile. Having those three things when you're meeting a person for the first time, they're probably three pretty rough things to already assume of someone. I had to prove. Every time I meet someone new, I have to prove to them that's not me. I asked her, What was the first three things you came to mind? And then she told me those three things. That's how everyone in the world that hasn't met me before assumes I am. And that's pretty brutal. Those three things are terrible. I don't hang around with one person that is arrogant or volatile or crazy.

And she just spent two times with me and then she's like, You're completely different to how the media pains you out to be. So I guess every hater just thinks I'm like that, I'm assuming. So I would just try and prove that I'm not like that. But it's so hard.

This segment about inspiring creativity is brought to you by AT&T. At&t believes connecting changes everything. When we talk about innovation in the workplace, there is this misconception that notifications and the constant stimulation from technology hinder creativity. But research suggests that being connected digitally, in fact, enhances your creativity and productivity at work. Personally, I'm a big believer in having various modalities of communication. It's like finding that perfect mix between getting stuff done and having a good time doing it. When we've got all these ways to chat, it's not just about the serious stuff, it's about adding some fun. And you know that mix of work and play, it's like a magnet, pulling everyone in. It's not just about sharing ideas, it's about laughing together and feeling like a real team. It's like finding a treasure chest of ideas while making our team bond stronger. And the best part? When people feel happy at work, it changes everything. They're not just working, they're truly engaged. You see smiles, hear laughter, and feel this positive vibe. It's like everyone's working together towards success. And that environment is a win-win for both the company and its employees. And here is how staying up to date with colleagues through apps and products can boost creativity in the workplace.

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This has been brought to you by AT&T. At&t believes connecting inspires, unites, heals, and helps us grow. Connecting changes how we live our lives for the better. How did she give you the time of day to make you believe that? Because like you said, for a lot of people, and you've been together for a.

Bit now. Yeah, two years now coming up. But I just bought a mirror off a small company. I justIt was just excuses. Just an excuse of how am I going to get her to just give me the chance? I feel like these people that hate me or don't like how I go about things, they won't even give me a chance. They won't even listen because they think that I'm crazy.

Do you think you just started playing the character at one point?

Definitely. At the end of the day, money is important. I knew that that nick could... That's the one that everyone wanted. They didn't care about how I actually was. They just wanted that one. The brands just wanted to work with that one. That was hard. Every time I do something brand-wise, earlier in my career, I was exhausted. I got home. I was like, Thank God that's over. I could just be myself again. I'd meet people and they would just want that.

How did you know that? Were there people in your vicinity telling you that? Because that's fascinating, right? The construction of talent is something that I think the average person is so separated from. When I moved to LA five years ago and I coach and work with so many different people in different parts of whether it's music, acting, athletes, and you start recognizing how their management and their teams want them to be a certain persona, whether it's like, you've got to show that you're single because otherwise people won't be into you if you have a long-term relationship, or you've got to be this way so that this brand will want to work with you. How much of that was in your ear? Were you hearing things like that? Or was it more in your own mind?

It was more in my own mind. I think my team now have only ever wanted me to be happy and be myself. I know that, and that's why I keep them around. I have a really small circle. But I knew that brands just knew that they wanted that, nick. And it's sad in a way, because they don't even want to get to know me as me as a person. We wouldn't even sit down and have this conversation. They just wanted me to be that the one they see on the court, be the entertaining one. And it's like, I'm not like that. I'm very chilled out. I feel like most people just want to meet that one.

Yeah, because it sells tickets. Of course. -getts attention. -exactly. -getts the headlines. -that's right. It makes a moment out of it. When was the day where you felt you played that character really well? When would you say you're like, You know what? That was the best acting gig I ever did.

Last year at the US Open was good. Like, Arthur Ash Stadium in New York is the biggest stadium that we have. And it's crazy.

I won.

This year. You go to the back and you look up on the plane, it's just like a wall of people just glaring down at you. And that's the coolest thing about tennis, there's nowhere to hide. If you're playing, if you're having a bad day, you can't sub out. There's no one to play your position. So you're just there. And I just feel like New York and the Americans, I feel extremely at home here. I feel like they really do enjoy when you put on a show and you do something some crazy stuff out there. So every time I was stepping out on that court, it was like five minutes before I was in the locker room, I was like, Okay, I got to be more of that nick tonight. Because I do appreciate the love that the American fans do give me. But yeah, every match was a bit ofwas a bit of a show.

Do you feel differently about different places around the world? You've traveled, of course, as a tennis player, you travel everywhere. How do you feel like when you're in Australia versus when you're in the UK versus when you're in the US? Walk me through the differences you experience as a player in the media and everything else.

I hate playing in Australia. If you're going to air this, obviously, that's going to... People think that... Most Australians love playing in Australia, but there was one moment that ruined it for me. I was playing second round of the Australian Open. I had some match points. It was like a four-and-a-half-hour match, and I'd lost second round. I remember getting booed off the court in Melbourne. That was one of the worst feelings to me because I remember after that match, I locked myself in the room with my physio. There were just people knocking on the door like I had to do media, I had to do this. I turned the lights off and I was just so overwhelmed. I'd given my absolute all in front of my fans for four hours and I lost the match and I just got booed off the court. For me, that really ruined... That put a sour taste in my mouth playing in Australia. I know now I've had some great results in Australia and they have been behind me. But I don't forget things like that. I feel like if I loved someone and I understood the effort and the hours I put in, I would never do that.

I'd never boo off one of my hometown heroes. That's why I guess it's affected my relationship with Australia, playing for the country. It's because I've been battered in the media there. They've said some horrible things. There are some Australian Legends that have told me and my family to go back to where we come from. I just don't forget things like that. I've had Leighton Hewitt call me on my phone and say, Why don't you want to play for the country? Everyone here wants you here. And it's like, Yeah, but no other player in the country has dealt with the backlash or the negativity towards their family, their girlfriend like me. That hurt. I guess playing in Australia for me, I don't really like. London, I just don't fit it there at all. Wimbledon, it's a crazy feeling. The documentary said it's like a snowman in the desert. It literally is. I walk around and everyone's like, Oh, my God, he's wearing a no... I could be wearing an anime shirt there. They're like, Oh, look what he's wearing. Everything I do there is under a microscope. And that's a cool feeling, I guess. Novak would understand what that feels like too.

It's like the villain. It's like no one wants to see you win. And you made the finals. You had people like pierce, Morgan, just throwing absolute venom at you. And that's why I love playing in the US Open because I feel, Wow, this is at home. The energy is amazing. And they bring that energy that I have, and I love playing there. Australia and England are a bit... I don't like playing there, but US, I love it.

Yeah.

Good to-I love Asia as well. Asia is amazing. Asia too? Yeah. I think Asia just love entertainment. They love something different and they're respectful. I think they get to think that people are different there. But yeah, I love playing in Asia as well.

What would have changed if you were allowed to be nice guy, nick, from the beginning and people perceived you as you actually are? How do you think that would have impacted your game, your career, the work?

Well, the first five years of my career, I was almost impossible to get any deal with anyone because they just thought I was volatile, crazy. They didn't want me representing their brand. Where I feel like if they knew how I was and actually like a nice guy, I probably would have made a lot more money. I probably would have been more at peace with people actually knowing that I was a good guy. Because for a minute there, I thought the whole world thought that I was just a terrible person. I feel like it would have helped me. I definitely don't think I would have fell into that dark period of my life as well. But conversely, I don't want to change that because that makes me who I am today. Obviously, I know everyone says that, but when I opened up on social media about it, the amount of people that now open up to me daily, I got people around the world that I give them my number and I've had phone calls with people and tried to articulate in a way that it's okay, that's completely normal what you're going through. But please keep reaching out to me.

Stay in touch with me if you need any help. That's been the most powerful thing in my career at the end of the day, is helping others getting through rough patches of their life. All the accomplishments, I don't actually care about them. All my people know I don't ever sit there and talk about what I've achieved. I don't really care about it. I think that's all a bit superficial, but the platform that I have now is amazing, what I can do with it.

It's interesting, isn't it? As a professional, we assume that complete control is a demonstration of brilliance, when the reality is that when you're playing something you love, it's natural to be passionate. I'm not an athlete, but as in, even if I'm playing football with my mates, if I miss a shot, I still miss the penalty. I can take it very seriously. That's a sign of passion and care and enthusiasm and energy. It's not a sign of-Not caring. -then not caring or being angry at someone or being mad at my mate. It's my mate. He's always going to be my mate. But in that moment, it's like, Dude, you should have put that penalty away. But we've tried to make... Especially in tennis, it's almost like there's no space for passion and personality, especially in tennis.

Yeah, it's a white-privileged sport. I was behind the eight ball from the get-go. I was colored, had some big personality, wore the emotion on my sleeve. I was always trying to play against so many more people than just who was down. Beating the best players in the world is already hard enough. The training every day, the diet, the discipline, that was already hard. But me, it was like I was playing against millions more people every time I went out on the court. I think that's why I'm a bit more exhausted than the average tennis player now. When someone goes out there, they're just playing against who's down the other end. But I was playing against the media. I was playing against... Because I knew that every little thing I did was under such a microscope. Even if I had a flawless match, it was like, Oh, that's how it should be anyway. But then the minute I did something bad, it was like, Oh, here it is. See, that's his true colors. I was like, I couldn't win. I actually couldn't win. And then if I was well behaved and disciplined, it was like, Oh, no, it was boring.

So it's like, Okay, which one do you want? And that's how I've always felt like on the tennis world that they haven't embraced me. And that's why I've got such a big chip on my shoulder now with the tennis world. It's like I don't owe anyone anything anymore. So that's been the biggest. It's just been a walking contradiction my entire career.

It sounds like a lot to carry.

Yeah, it is. It is. And I think that's why I fell into that dark space because I knew that I couldn't win no matter what I did.

I wanted to show you this. This one, take a look at that. It's from the boss Open, Stookgart, June 2023, I believe.

Don't look happy. Yeah, and I was just... This was with me coming off my knee injury and I had a pretty serious operation. I just knew that physically I probably wasn't ready to go. It's hard because even when I don't play or even during COVID, the tennis world used me as one of the key marketing points to keep the sport afloat whilst during that period. That's been one of the hardest things as well. From a sport that's given me so much negativity and treated me like an outcaste, they still use me as someone that they want to put on the front cover for tickets or getting people to be there. I know that I just get treated so poorly in the tennis world. Honestly, I look at that photo, I just look like I'm just spent. There's just no energy there. And it's sad because I'm just in front of a camera doing another interview because the tournament needs it. Yet I know that if I... Which I did go on to lose that match, got hate for it. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard. It really is.

Are you trying to heal your relationship with tennis and the industry for yourself? In the sense of it almost feels like you carry this validity to this, of course. You carry a sense of pain and stress and victimhood to the industry because there's been so much pain caused to you. Is there any part of you that's trying to heal that so that you're not carrying that bitterness towards the industry?

I think so much damage has been done from... I guess because when people ask me, If you had your time again, would you ever pick up a rocket? I genuinely have thought about it. I don't think I'd ever play the sport. I don't think I'd ever pick up a tennis rack. That's such a scary thing because my whole life has been built off tennis. If I had this again, to go again, I wouldn't play tennis. I think that's so hard and it's so dark. My whole life now revolves around what I've achieved on the court. But then if I could do it again, I wouldn't ever want to pick up a rocket. I'm genuinely being honest. I've had conversations with myself about it, but I don't think I can repair the damage that I guess the sports brought upon me and just anyone. The amount of stress that has put on my family, you can't heal that. About six months ago, someone came to my house with a gun and pointed at my mom to steal my car. I never thought that I'd bring that upon. I live in a nice neighborhood where things like that just don't happen.

It's just been hard. I never thought I'd deal with things like that and the trauma that my mom has now gone through. I don't think I can repair my relationship with tennis at all.

Wow. It's amazing that you've been able to take care of yourself and your family and figure it out, because a few years ago I interviewed Dennis Rodman, and it was one of the toughest interviews I've ever done because he was in a really bad place at the time. I don't know him personally, so I don't know if he's better now or where he's at. But all I remember was that in that interview, I asked him what his purpose in life was, and he said to survive another day. That's where he was at. And a lot of it was because of how he'd felt treated by the media, because he was like... Dennis Rodman was everywhere when not only was he successful on the court, but off the court, his whole life was documented in so many ways. And he was the wildcard, too, in his persona. And it's just fascinating to me. It's almost like until someone crashes or until someone burns, we don't realize how heavy media. And I don't think our brains are wired for millions of opinions to write about us and our performance and our families and our life. I think the amount of people that are now dealing with that today who are in the spotlight constantly has only increased.

There are more people in the spotlight and there are more people criticizing people in the spotlight. I don't think we've ever stopped to think about... When someone is as honest as you, you can only empathize to think, Yeah, we don't realize the damage we're doing to people. Because I don't think it's tennis that you're mad at as a sport, the activity, it's what comes with it, is what it sounds like to me. -yeah, definitely. -it's not playing tennis.

No, because I enjoy it. I think tennis is a great sport and everyone who plays it, I can see how it's enjoyable and it's great for UBA. It's more so, I think, and Carrie Irving, I love some of his stuff because he says, I don't think people understand words can actually hurt someone a lot. I've said the exact same thing. Fame and social media, it's all man-made. Someone's not supposed to deal... Like, they're supposed to wake up and then see such negativity feed into their brain constantly every day. How do you expect someone to just perform or just survive with that much negativity. I have conversations, obviously, you wouldn't understand, but I have conversations with some of my friends about it, and no one can understand that because it's not normal. You're not supposed to see all that negativity. You're not supposed to deal with it. I don't know, I guess I've run out of answers or solutions as to how do you deal with that. Yeah, you can speak to people about it, but it's so overwhelming and how do you stop it? And you're right. Until someone really crashes and burns, then you're like, I think we push it too far, but that's human nature.

We all take things for granted and we all don't understand our actions until there's a reaction. I don't like to word it in the sense that I'm just surviving. Every day I'm just surviving. But it does feel like that for me. That's why everything's a bonus. If I'm here tomorrow and I'm enjoying it, I'm eating chipotle and I'm going to watch a Lakers game or a Clipper's game, that's amazing. That's awesome. I never thought that I'd still be here doing those things. But obviously, Dennis just couldn't obviously articulate any other way. That's how it is. That's how it feels like at times. And it's a bit dark to say it like that, but I guess- Yeah, he was in a dark place for sure. -yeah, but I guess that's just what it feels like for me half the time as well.

What I was saying is it's amazing that you've been able to be more upbeat and positive. And I hope you keep finding that because just from the few moments we've spent, I could tell you like having a good time. You like smiling, you like laughing. There's a positive energy that surrounds you from the moment you walked into my home today. I hope you always hold on to that because you have that natural ability to make people feel good and have a positive energy. I hope you never lose that because it seems to be who naturally who you are. It's so easy to go down the other track. How have you managed, though, with your relationship too? Obviously, you're quite public about your relationship. How have you managed to maintain that in a positive way as well? Because that seems to be a positive part of your life, a part of your life you like sharing, a part of your life that you were talking about earlier. But having a relationship in the spotlight is very challenging. How have you managed to keep that in the spotlight, but then also keep it positive? My name is Laverne Cox.

I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and host of The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember my award-winning first season?

I've been pretty busy, but there's always time to talk to incredible guests about important things.

People like me have been screaming for years. We got to watch the Supreme Court. What they're doing is wrong. What they're doing is evil. They will take things away. I can only hope that Dobbs is that like Pearl.

Harbor moment. Girl, you and I both know what it took.

To just get through the day in New York City and get home in one piece.

The.

Fact that we're here and what you've achieved and.

What I've achieved, that's momentous. It's not just us sitting around complaining about some bills. The only reason that you might think, as Chase said, that we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking us and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to the Laverne Cox Show on the iHeart Radio app.

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Crypton Ferguson, the Grand Master, the architect of wisdom, Maharishi of Myrth goes in search of joy.

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You'll be speaking with actors, doctors, comedians, and scientists, artists, and athletes, and people of faith in search of extreme happiness. The United States of America are crowned champions of the world. At last, a podcast on a mission, a podcast that wonders what is joy? Is it love, religion, drug, success.

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Explores the countless ways people find joy, the celebrations, the dances, the science, poetry, laughter, and music of joy. Don't miss it. Joy with Craig Ferguson. Hear it now on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Something about Mary Poppins?

Something about Mary Poppins.

Exactly. Oh, man, this is fun.

I'm AJ Jacobs, and I am an author and a journalist, and I tend to get obsessed with stuff. My current obsession is puzzles. That has given birth to my new podcast, The Puzzler. Dressing.

Dressing. Oh, French dressing.

Exactly. Oh, that's good. That's good. We are living in the golden age of puzzles, and now you can get your daily puzzle Nuggets delivered straight to your ears for 10 minutes or less every day on The Puzzler. Short and sweet.

I thought to myself, I bet I know what this is, and now I definitely know what this is. This is so weird.

This is fun.

Let's try this one.

Listen to The Puzzler every day on the iHeart Radio app.

Apple Podcasts.

Or wherever you get your podcasts. That's awful, and I should have seen it coming.

Well, that just comes from experience as well. I've had relationships prior that were toxic and they didn't end up going well. I think the thing I love about my relationship now, we have such strong boundaries and respect for each other. With social media and relationships in general, boundaries can be a bit soft. I come from a background where my parents have been together for nearly 40 years and they argue and they joke with each other, they get each other's nerves. I spoke to my mom about it. She goes, Patience is the biggest thing in a relationship where communication and patience. I think my girlfriend's a bit younger than I am, but we've sat down, we've set our boundaries and respect for each other. I think that's why it works because we understand that being in the spotlight is brutal for relationships. There's always going to be people trying to tear you down, send a message here or there, even liking a phone, these types of things. I've now realized that I have to be diligent with these things because it's a respect thing. On social media, I guess that's like who you are in today's day and age is who you are?

Who are you on Instagram? Who are you on Twitter? You have to make sure that you're ticking every box on those platforms. My girlfriend gets it and she listens to me. If I had all these experiences, she wouldn't listen. She knows that I've been through a lot and she trusts me as well. She does listen and we have a great relationship.

Yeah, the boundaries part is so important.

It's so important. I always have this example. If she was like, pregnant with my kid and my phone just popped up with, Girls just liking my photo and stuff like that plays a part and that builds up tension, and then it just explodes. I try and tick every box and make her feel comfortable and respected, and especially it's heightened because we're in the spotlight so much. I try and do everything I can to make her feel comfortable.

I remember my wife and I had been together for three years before... No, we'd been married for three years and together for six years before we did something together publicly on social media. I felt that that was so important for us because we'd been together for a while, but then when social media started to take off for me and the content that I was making, we were just still finding our foundation and figuring it out. I can't imagine if we would have been active on social media together in any way earlier than that for us, because I think I was just figuring out what it meant for me, then she was figuring out what it meant for her. And I feel like a lot of people, it doesn't matter whether you have a platform or not, we're not having those conversations and figuring that out with another human being. And even now, even to this day, my wife has different priorities on social media and what she wants to share than I do. And it comes with so many interesting question marks. We had someone asking us a question of like, Oh, well, you post about your relationship, but she doesn't.

Does that mean.

There's an issue?

I was like, No, it's just we have different ways. I love sharing about our relationship. Me too. She likes keeping it a bit more private. That doesn't mean that there's an issue, but it's so fascinating how everything gets taken out of context.

Yeah, I think most relationships, the problems stem from social media. I've got friends that have very healthy relationships with different standards on social media, like you said, but I feel like to give the relationship the best chance of working, you need to see eye to eye on those things. Because in my previous relationships, the standards on social media weren't the same and they weren't as respected on both sides and it didn't go well. But here we see eye to eye and I think it's a crucial part of it because again, social media, what is it? I didn't grow up with social... I had a flip phone and I remember the first time when Instagram became a thing and it was used to share a picture of a flower and stuff. Now it's like a whole business. It's just evolving and it's changing. I think you need to have... It's so important to have these conversations because, unfortunately, it plays a huge part in relationships. It does.

Another thing that came up on social media was your interaction with and then I said, I'm a big fan of Drake. You both said, Did you ever get together?

The thing is, our beef was so ridiculous. I was 19 and I just said I came out slow, so I'm not going to listen to Drake. I said it jokingly. Then he came out and said, Oh, who is this guy? I'll chop him down. I was like, All right, you're five nine. I'm six foot four. Then he reached out after Wynnwooden, and then I went back, and I would love to. I would love to get him on my stuff. But I also respect these guys have so much going on in their life. And if they speak to me or send me a message, that's a bonus. It comes back to all that being a bonus. I do love his music. I'm just going to say that.

Yeah, so do I. Yeah, it's good. But no, it's funny. That was an old conversation. Yeah, an old conversation. Yeah, that was funny. No, I think you guys doing a podcast today would be dope. That would be cool. I think it would be really good. Let's put it out there. I think that would be cool. That would be awesome to watch. No, I love what you keep going back to, man. I've met so many people who have achieved incredible things, but they've lost that childlike view of it. They've lost that... Not that they've lost gratitude, but they've lost that feeling of like, Oh, my gosh, I can't believe this. That feeling of magic. And it feels like you've held on to that.

I think that's the only thing I... Even just driving to your house today, I was like, This is insane. I have utmost respect for everything you've created. You must just look back at your journey and be like, Wow, this is sick. I love reminding people of not that they need it, but it feels good when someone comes into you and actually is like, Dude, well done. Good stuff, because I can only imagine how hard you've worked for everything here. I feel like the normal person doesn't really realize how hard someone has to work to achieve all this. You didn't just put your hand into a raffle and pull it out and be like, Okay, I'm Jayshane in with all this. I just love making people feel that way. We all started from something so small, and I think that's so cool.

You find a way to still let yourself feel that way?

Yeah. Sometimes I like making myself feel good. It's not in an arrogant way. I just think I've done some pretty cool things, whether it be on the tennis court or collaborations with people. It's cool. I think for the viewers that are going to watch this, it's not like we just started in this position. We were just normal people and we didn't really ask for everything that came with it. We're all trying to figure it all out.

What's been your proudest moment off the course?

I guess any time I'm with my family and we're having a good dinner together, we might be eating at a restaurant and just all together. Just any moment like that for me now is the best. I just feel like we were... Because during that period when I was really unwell, I didn't talk to my family at all. I didn't speak to them. I put so much stress on my family. Now when we made up and we have a gathering and we're all there and we're just having some good laughs, those are my favorite moments now. The simplest of things make me so happy now. Yeah. Do you.

Do a lot together? Do you do a lot together during the holidays.

Coming up? Yeah, we have the annual Curious Christmas party, like things like this.

Tell me about that. Tell me about the.

Annual Curious Christmas party. Every year there's in Canberra, like three to four hundred people come through our house during the night. Three to four hundred people. And then they're coming and going. There's always a theme. This year it's Gatsby, so everyone's going to be in suits, cigarettes and stuff. It's good. Last year was superhero, supervillains. Those types of things now are amazing. I can't wait to just see all my loved ones, family and friends. That's what I look forward to now. Yeah, I guess everything that I achieve is... And then people ask me that, they're like, No, you're just being humble. It's like, No, I genuinely just love simple moments like that. It's so good. Yeah.

You were talking about you've been inspired by the next generation. Walk me through a moment you've had with a young fan or one of those moments that you feel like that stays with you and that keeps you motivated and keep going.

Well, I guess my game style is unorthodox, and I'm playing crazy shots in crazy moments. When people send me videos of their young kids playing, they're trying to hit a tweener or they're trying to serve like me, that's cool. I think someone that I look up to is like Allen Iverson. You look at his basketball game and you look at the culture he left, the way he dressed, and some of his press conferences are hilarious. I think he had his own style and people wanted to be him. I think when it's all said and done, there's going to be so many people around the world trying to play like me and play the shot that they're not supposed to play because it gives them that thrill. I think if that carries on at the end of my career, that's something pretty special.

Yeah, it's very cool. I still remember the Allen Iverson Rebook, I am what I am advert. I don't know if you had Rebook back in Australia back then, but in the UK we had these ads and it used to just say, I am what I am, and Allen Iverson kicked it off. And it stayed with me ever since that day, even though I maybe didn't even follow the brand or the sport that much, but still it.

Stayed with me. Yeah, he's like the definition of that. I just love his press conference. So good. Because he was just like a human. He said, I cry just like you guys. I'm not the best every day. I don't feel like working. I don't feel like showing up. And you expect me to do all these things. I think we're just normal people towards athletes or people that have a lot of things going on. They just lose a bit of compassion towards those people, I think.

Yeah, you've mentioned crying a few times. I was wondering when was the last time that you really cried or something that really made you cry?

I probably could have broken down a couple of times during some of this conversation, but I try to control it a little bit more these days. I just feel like I used to cry a lot. I've had conversations with my mom, heaps of people. I feel like I can break down so often just because things are just so raw and they just have... If you pull the wrong string, I feel like at any moment in time I probably could get really emotional. But I think we do need to be a bit stronger than that at times. But yeah, my dad, I draw a lot of strength from my dad. He never cries and he's like the strong person in our family. I try and look, I look up to him a lot with that type of stuff. I used to cry a lot, yeah.

Do you still see crying as a weakness or you've seen it as a good outlet as well?

You're obviously feeling that way for some reason. I think it's not good to let it in. It's not good to bottle it up. During this conversation, I felt like crying. And because you've touched on things that are so emotional, and I think that if I don't try and be stronger, then I'm always going to... If someone's going to watch this, I don't want them to think it's the only way is to open up and cry about it. You can be strong about things. I still feel like crying. Of course I do. But I feel like I need to be a bit stronger than that.

Yeah, that's an interesting. I like that nuance because, of course, I believe it's healthy to cry. I think it's necessary to cry sometimes when you feel a certain way. But at the same time, I agree with you that the ability to know you feel like crying, but keeping it together, not for performance or not for the sake of how other people feel, but you're almost strengthening your ability to deal with an emotion is an interesting nuance because I feel like the world used to tell men, like you can't cry. And then it became like, You should cry. And then there's this in-between, which is the reality of I can relate to what you just said, where I'm like, I like crying sometimes. I think it's important. But then there's sometimes where I'm like, no, actually, I want to be able to hold myself. I just gave a... It was my sister's wedding two months ago, and I didn't anticipate how emotional it was going to be. My sister is five years younger than me. She's been my baby ever since she grew up. She's a little kid for me. She's short as well. She's shorter than me.

She's literally like a child. I knew her wedding was coming up and all the rest of it. You prepped your sofa it. I prepped myself, but I didn't realize how emotional it was going to be. And Indian weddings are huge.

I got a guy. He's going to be watching this for sure. He told me about it. He sent me all the videos, nuts. You guys are crazy.

It's crazy. It was five events over seven days, and every event has 300 people in it. We're out there and I was more emotionally drained after that week than I am for my whole year of giving and helping and everything that I do. That was the most emotionally moving week of my entire life. I walked my sister down the aisle and if you watched the video, I'm literally trying and I'm doing what you just said you had to do. I just had to hold back because I knew if I cry and she sees me cry, then she's going to cry. Then her makeup is going to go bad. Then she's going to be mad at me later that I made her cry on her wedding day. I'm holding it back. Then my wife thought about it head. She told her. She goes, Don't look at him during the wedding ceremony because he's going to be crying. My sister avoided eye contact with me the whole time because the whole time I was crying. It was just fascinating to me because I've probably not cried that much ever in my life. But there were times when I had to hold back for her sake, and there were times when I let it out.

I like that you brought that up because I do think that we've gone from one extreme to the other extreme of men never cried to men should cry all the time to figure out that healthy balance.

Yeah, I think it's with anything. You get injured, you break a bone, it heals, you get stronger. It's not to say that you shouldn't acknowledge the pain or acknowledge crying, but trying to stay strong through those moments, I think, is just as important of realizing, yeah, you're hurt and those are touchy topics. But how are you going to... Every time someone brings it up, are you just going to cry? Or are you going to be able to talk about and educate other people that are going through the same thing? I think you've got to be a beacon and just hold it together a little bit.

What's your days looking like right now? Now that you're in your element, you're having a good time, things are opening up, you're doing new creative endeavors. What does your day look like right now and what you're loving.

About it? My team comes with me for these opportunities. Obviously, it's all insane the fact that I have these options now. Obviously, training is a big part of my day still. Obviously, rehabbing through surgeries and just maintaining that strength whilst you're not playing is a big thing. You can get pretty relaxed with it and you can lose years of work in a couple of months. I'm trying to stay on top of that. Then with doing all these things, I feel like I just got a new passion because I love communicating with people. I love learning about people and I love helping. I just love entertaining, giving the audience something different than what they've seen from me the last 10 years. So just all these types of things, training, seeing the world with my girlfriend, I know that we're extremely blessed. 95 % of relationships, you don't get to travel, you don't get to do the world like we get to do it. So I know that I'm extremely blessed in that department. And a little one % of NBA games, I love basketball.

You've been watching?

Yeah, I'm watching. We might be going tonight to the game too.

Oh, nice.

Who's your team? I'm a Boston Celtic fan, so being in LA is tough.

What's been the best country you've visited or favorite place that you've visited? Maybe with your girlfriend, even on your own, that's left a mark.

Well, Australia is the best place in the world. I'm just going to say that it is. Every person.

That goes out. I love going to us. I had the best time. My whole tour, I had so much fun in Australia. It was amazing.

Australia is the best place in the world. I love the States personally just because of the sport. You guys do sport here like nothing else. But my mom is half Malaysian. I'm half Malaysian. My mom is Malaysian. So every time I go to Malaysia or any Asian country, I love the food. My mom cooks. I'm not just saying this. My mom is honestly probably one of the best cooks in the world. I've grown up with such a good food background, so I could live in Asia hands down. But the States, probably somewhere there. I'm half Greek. Europe's nice, but Australia is the best place in the world. It's the.

Best place in the world. Where in Australia? If someone had to visit, where should.

They go? I mean, I come from Canberra and everyone from Australia thinks Canberra is not a very good place, but I love the simplicity of Canberra. I love coffee. I love the cafe scene. I love just chilling. But Sydney, Melbourne, or even Gold Coast, some of that beautiful places. Just such a good lifestyle there. It's so safe and you can just do whatever you need to do in Sydney. I'm in Australia in general.

Yeah, I need to go back. I went for work and I always feel like when you go for work, it's different. Definitely, of course. I was telling my wife, I was like, We have to go back and just experience it. I'd like to come to you for all the recommendations.

Hundred %. Yeah, I've got a couple of good spots.

What would you say now, if there's anything, keeps you up at night, Stuart?

Yeah. I lost my grandma when I was about 19 after I first broke onto the scene. She was like my best friend through my childhood, like my mom. My mom was always working. I didn't get to see much of my mom. Like, my grandma picked me up from school, dropped me to trainings. We slept in the same room together. We had bunk beds. We were like best friends. She passed away when things started to get a bit crazy for me in my career, like media. I probably didn't spend enough time with her that I would have liked. I think back to when she was in a nursing home towards the end of her life. I feel like that really bothers me. I feel like tennis took time away. Not tennis itself, like you said, the sport, just everything that came with.

It took.

Special time away that I should have had with her. I was so young and naive to say to these people, No, I don't want to do it. It was the time where money was coming in for my family. I was changing my entire family's life. I felt like that sits with me, and that's painful because she was my best friend. I guess she maybe understood it and maybe she didn't. I feel like if I could spend some more time with her instead of doing media or an interview or business or something like that, I guess I wish I could have more time with her, but hopefully she's up there watching and proud of everything that I'm doing now. I think about that all the time.

That's a tough one when you can't do anything about it now. You can't change it. Yeah, you can't change it. Those are the ones that are like... It's tough thinking you could have done more. You're so young, too, and your career is taking off. It's so forgiveable in that sense. How would you know at 19 what to prioritize and what to focus on? You're living the dream in one sense. Like you said, you're changing your family's life. It's hard to deal with that. I guess, would you say... It doesn't sound like that's a regret, though. It sounds like it's something that's -.

Yeah, I think I used to think it was like I used to really be upset about it, and I was regretful of doing everything that came with it. I was like, I hated tennis. I hated everything that came around because I was like... I didn't leave her, but I just didn't spend as much time as I used to spend with her. Now I've come to understand it. I was young. I wasn't educated on these things that I had to be doing. I guess I've been a bit nicer to myself on that topic, but I still think about it. I unfairly think about it at nighttime.

Yeah, it's amazing how the mind works, right? You can literally avoid something the whole day and somehow at night it comes back. It's just almost like on clockwork, like on time. It's so fascinating. Have you found a way of switching those.

Thoughts off? I guess I just realized now that that's just more love and more time that I wanted with her. I'll try and look at it as a positive. Why am I always thinking about this moment? Why is it always coming up? It's just because she meant a lot to me. I have so much more stuff that I wish I could just sit down with her now and speak about everything that's been going on. She would love it. She was the ultimate jokester in our family. She was just a free spirit, and I feel like that's where I get some of my personality from on the court. If I could just sit down with her now and just chat about things would be amazing. I guess that's what I'd just try and turn into a positive. I just got so much stuff that I want to talk to her about. I feel like if she was here during that dark time, I think I would have got through it a lot easier. But I guess I just turned into a positive.

Hi, I'm Danny Shapiro, host of the hit podcast, Family Secrets. What happens when the person you idolize, the person you think you know.

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Yes, yes, the Street Stoic podcast is back. One of the quotes that came to mind here is from Greg. The lyrics that came.

Up for me.

Was from Beyonce. I pulled a quote from.

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Listen to Season Two of The Street Stoke Podcast as part of the Mikeitura Podcast Network on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, there's also you've said that after the Wimbledon game with Jokovic, you felt like you could have won it. There was a feeling like you could have done that. That could have been it. How much does that play on your mind?

A lot that I was two sets away from winning Wimbledon. If I played anyone else on Planet that day, I felt like I would have won. So yeah, now I'm at peace with it. But for the three to four months after, that was like an everyday. It was not just a nighttime thing. It was like, What could I have done differently? Every time I was in the gym, every time I was on court, why didn't I? That was my opportunity, why didn't I just grab it? But now I understand. The more he achieves now, the more I'm nice. I'm like, Okay, no, everyone's trying to still figure this out. But yeah, look, more than 99 % of the world hasn't figured out how to beat him on a consistent basis, so I can't be too angry.

About it. Yeah, I like that perspective. That's a good mindset to have. But it's so interesting, right? I can totally empathize with that idea of how you can be so harsh and heavy on your sofa like three to four months because you can over-analyze. Have you mastered the art of limiting over-analysis? Or what have you learned about stopping over-analysis to the point that it becomes a weakness?

Well, tennis is a sport where you have to be a good loser because every week you're losing. Unless you're one of these top guys who is winning consecutive tournaments, you're experiencing a loss every week and you just have to pick yourself up and go again in a different country, different surface, different time zones. You just have to just be really good at understanding what you've done wrong, moving on and just going again. Because one to two weeks in tennis can change your life. You can have 30 bad weeks in a row. The minute you have one really good result, things change for you. That's what I love about tennis. You have to learn to bounce back quickly. I think that's a life lesson. You're going to experience ups and downs. Things are going to be horrific for a couple of months. They might be great. It's like riding the wave and being equal through everything and just backing up and going again, consistency is you learn that from tennis so early on, which is cool. I like that. Where other sports you have an off-season, so you have a period of time to say, Well, what I need to get better at?

I can get stronger. With tennis, there's no off-season. Every week is a new tournament, so you can't be too down when you lose, and then when you win, it's like, but you're playing tomorrow, so you got to just start again.

What's something in life that you've had to learn the hard way?

That's hard.

Yeah, take your time.

I don't know. Let me ask you that question.

What's something I've had to learn the hard way? Here's a hard question, so let me take a second too. I hope that no one's coming to save me. That no one magic person is going to discover my abilities, my qualities, and help me become the best version of myself that there's not going to be one person who just- Activates it all. -activates it all and makes it easier and shows me the path and clears all the obstacles and says, Jay, just walk this way.

Like when you put something in iPhone maps and it tells you which.

Direction to go. Exactly. Like someone who's going to come and show you the map of life. No matter how much someone cares or doesn't care, that's not there. I think I've... I think I just had this inbuilt belief since I was young that someone else was going to discover me and help me. And it was only when I realized that that person was me that life became easier. But it took me a long time to learn that. And they talk about it in dating, especially for the way women were raised. But it's called the Disney Princess syndrome, this idea of how Disney made young women believe that one day your night in Shining Armor will come and save you, and there'll be this perfect guy who has everything figured out, and you'll kiss a frog, and he'll become a prince and all these ideas. I think we all carry that in some ways. I think that's been really hard for me. I think the other one was what we were talking about earlier. I think something I've had to learn the hard way is I deeply believed that when I achieve a certain level of success, that everyone will like me.

Or.

That when I make it to this level that everyone will recognize my struggle and my pain and everyone will acknowledge how hard I've worked.

Yeah, I guess that's probably been my biggest one. I wish people, when I meet new people that they just... How I am with people that have achieved things, I'm so grateful. I'm so proud of them in a way. I don't even know these people, but I'm like, Wow, you must have worked really hard. That for me is like, I wish people would give me more, just maybe a little bit more credit from time to time, just of some of the things that it's been hard. It hasn't been like an easy journey at all for me and I'm sure anyone in a position of achieving things has been so hard.

Yeah, and that could be anything, right? I think we're talking about everyone. -everyone. -everyone. If you're someone who's just figuring out how to pay the bills for your family, or you're taking care of.

Your kids-You deserve a little pat on the back. You deserve to sit down and maybe be made to feel good a little bit about things. Yeah.

It's almost weird because we think of that as cheesy. We think of that as like, Oh, get over it. But I feel like we all need... Me and my friend talk about this, my best man at my wedding, my best mate, we talk about this a lot about how we all need a sense of acknowledgment and recognition for what we're doing. And a lot of the time that scene is like soft or it's seen as like, Oh, you shouldn't need that. Get over it.

I think it's motivating. I think it makes you want to achieve more. When people recognize, Okay, you're doing really well. You're on the right track. Keep going. It's not arrogant, I think, to just sit down and recognize that I've come a long way, I'm on the right track, and what I'm doing is very special. I think that could be motivating in a way rather than seen as like, Soft or why do you need credit for that? It's like you're not doing things that every single person is doing. Obviously, something about you is special. Your details are you're ticking everything off the box. You shouldn't need acknowledgement for that.

Is there... Is there a moment that you wish you'd acted differently in a press conference or in a game? A moment where you look back and think, You know what? Actually, I'm better than that. I'm a nice guy. That's not me that was so far from who I am that I actually don't feel.

Good about that. Yeah, I've had so many moments like that. I could go on YouTube now. I guess the thing about tennis is when you finish a match, you have to do media like so soon to when finishing. So you haven't had time to digest any emotions. So you go in there. And the thing about it now with me, I walk into a room with about 50 people all ready to attack me. They're not actually going to ask me about, How did the match play out? They're going to just nitpick and come at me in an aggressive way. And I haven't had time to digest. I haven't even eaten after four hours sometimes. And then when I did that time on pierce Morgan, he's like, This guy is so rude. He's such so disrespectful. I played for four and a half hours. I needed to eat some food because for my nutrition and my preparation. It's like I walk in there and I have had no time to digest. Then these people are just going at me. Then I retaliate. For me, that's fine. You should be able to retaliate. But then I look back at all the people that are watching this, kids, and they see I could be disrespectful to someone that I don't even want to be that.

But in that moment, I just haven't had any time to just reflect on what's just happened. I feel like, yeah, I do regret sometimes on how I've acted on the tennis court or in a press conference because it's not that version of nick Kiriost that I want millions of people to watch and say, Oh, that's how he is. What a prick. But that's not me. Australians in general, we have a bit of that where if you come at us, we'll retaliate in a way of will make you feel it too. I guess that my upbringing where the bullying and stuff, I've always had that chip or shoulder where I'm in a position to give it, I'll give it a little bit. I don't feel proud of making other people feel bad. I think it's just more of a retaliation of I know how much it hurts, so now I'm going to give it back to you a little bit. That's not a good thing to do, especially after in a press conference where millions of people are going to see it. I definitely have some regrets with that.

Especially when it's not you. It's not me. I think that's the hardest part, right? When something's you, there's a certain understanding that you have with it. But when you feel like that's not me, I can empathize with that. If in any conversation or anything that I've done more offline where I've not acted like myself, it's almost the hardest thing in the world because I'm like, God, now I've shown someone a side of me, that's not me.

Exactly. And then they run with it. They're like, Look how he is. I'm like, That was a 10-minute press conference. It's not even at all of what I actually... What's the person I am at all. So, yeah, that's been hard.

And it's interesting, by the way, it is interesting to understand the context of you're playing for four and a half hours, you haven't eaten. It's good to know the human side of like, if you're watching a press conference, you're not thinking it through that deeply. No, you're not. You're just like, Oh, this guy just come off the court, whatever. It's what we do. And it's interesting because I'm like, Yeah, if I was hungry for four and a half hours and I'm just played and I get asked a question that annoys me, I could imagine retaliating.

Too and being defensive. Exactly. If you came back into the tennis course next day and had a whole night to reflect on the match, moments where you were great, moments where you weren't, you could just speak calmer about the situation. It's like when couples have a fight, sometimes figuring it out then and there is not the best thing. You need some time away. You need to reflect. You need to have a conversation and come back when you're both calmer rather than when the emotions are high and you just turned into an absolute explosion. Yeah, I mean, that's the same thing. I'm not walking into a room where they're empathetic that I lost. They're like, Oh, why did you lose for? Why did you act like this? It's like, Okay, you attacked me. Now I'm going to go back at you. And then, yeah.

And it's the trap. It is exactly.

That's the articles and the headlines they want.

It's the game they want to play. Who is the basketball player who had a really good response? Was it Yanis?

Yeah, and he's like, If you don't get a promotion, do you say that as a bad year? Exactly. Everything's building. Losing is not always seen as a failure. Why is that?

I agree. No, tell me how it feels to break a record. How does that feel?

It does.

Feel good. It does feel good, doesn't it? It does.

Feel good. Sometimes it.

Feels good. When does it feel good and when does it not feel good?

I guess it doesn't feel good when I know it's detrimental to what's going on. Look, when I know when I get to that level of anger, I know that it's not helping me. But sometimes if I've lost the match and the match is over and I go to my bag and I see it there and I know that I've got all this anger built up and I let loose, it does feel good. The timing of doing those things can help your performance. Because sometimes I've seen, in my experience, but other athletes like Jockovich and Serena Williams, all these Legends of broken rackets, but the response after that is the key component. Sometimes you need to let off the steam because you're expecting more from yourself. I feel like the response, if you're going to come back with energy and say, All right, I did that. Now it's time to reset. That, it can actually help you in a way.

Walk us through the balance of when anger is helpful versus when it becomes destructive, as the way you found it.

Because I've been angry where I've broken rackets and then I become a smart ass with the umpire, and then I'm actually not concentrating on what I need to do to win the match. It's like I'm more pissed off at myself, I'm more pissed off at the umpire. Where I've had times where if I break a rocket and I walk back to my bag and I'm like, All right, here we go. You've done that now. It's time to reset. We're not playing well, but now how are we going to change that? I feel like the discipline of doing... And these great players have shown that... And they start playing better and they end up winning the match. It's hard because you don't want to make it seem like a violent act, because then kids are going to be like, Oh, it's okay to throw rockets. It's okay to... But that's why I think the response after that's more important. It's like, I hated that. But then he started playing unbelievable. So something must have clicked in his head after he did that. I guess it can be positive, but you don't. I'm not going to sit here and say, Yeah, smash all the rockets in the world.

No, not at all.

Yeah, no, that's a thoughtful response. I can appreciate that. I can definitely see how getting that competitive spirit out in a physical act can be helpful. I can recognize that. And unless it hurts someone else, which it isn't. Exactly. And so it's interesting how, like you're saying, the greats do it often, but the response is, how did that help you process things versus how did it lead you down to.

Dark culture? It's like a complete reset almost. I've seen it all the time. I've seen Jockovich, Alcaraz, Serena do these things. It's like, okay, they realize they're not playing up to their standard and they go back and you see them breathing and then they've done that. It's like they've reached a limit of playing really bad and now it's time to switch that. It's good. I mean, it can be used as a reset.

How much has meditation and breathing or mindfulness been a part of your world? Or is that something you're discovering or you've been practicing.

For a while? I'm in complete work in progress. People think that I've got my stuff figured out and I have a nice routine. People don't realize that having a routine is harder than doing something different and having stimulation every day. That's easy. Waking up and doing something different is so easy every day, but can you get up week in, week out, monthly, yearly doing the same routine, having the discipline? Having routine for me is probably the hardest thing ever, and that's been my weakness in my career is consistency. Okay, you played great that week, but can you shop that? And I haven't proven, I guess that's what I haven't proven, is I've been consistent enough to make it this far, but am I consistent enough to be a champion? Probably not. I know that. I think I'm just a work in progress, whether it's meditation, whether it's breathing. I started pilates two months ago. I never thought that I'd ever start pilates. When my girlfriend went to pilates, I started laughing. I started doing it. I'm like, Oh, my God, this is hard. This is hard as. I'm still trying to figure out. Breathing for me is a big one when I'm on chord.

I really am mindful of my breathing. I don't even think I'm at that point of discipline or consistency yet to meditate. I hate being alone with my thoughts still. I still have extremely dark thoughts. I think I just try with easy, consistent habits. I go for a walk to get a coffee in the morning with my girlfriend or just these lighter things. Having a routine for me is incredibly hard still. People with routine think, Oh, they're boring. They're really disciplined and consistent with their work, and that's really healthy.

Routines and disciplines, they're so hard to build, easy to break, so easy to fall off, so hard to get back on, and so powerful when you get them right. Yeah. Yeah, anyone who can keep a discipline together every day is a serious achievement. It is. What's the most difficult emotional thought that you deal with regularly still, or an emotional thought you struggle to deal with still?

That I'm not enough. I think that was the biggest one I think I struggled with was I'm letting people down and I'm not enough. That's from millions and millions of opinions that have just built up over time. I can see when I lose a tennis match or when I don't achieve things, I can see sometimes even my family get disappointed. It just ate me up for so long, like going on social media saying... Because I was supposed to be the next after the big three, it was like, Okay, Kirios is going to take over the mantle. He's going to be the one for 15 years being professional, winning Grand Slams. I think I looked back on my career and I didn't even get close, not even a quarter of what people thought that I should have achieved with the talent that I have and I still deal with it. It's like I'm never going to achieve what all these people thought I was going to achieve. But I've had tough conversations with myself in the mirror saying, Am I okay with not maybe winning a Grand Slam? Am I okay with not achieving? I am.

I'm okay with that. But it's still hard because it's like I know that my family would love that. Maybe they would prefer me being that type of champion or this person. I really did struggle with that early on. It's hard. Everyone wants you to be something that you're not. But the one thing that they understand more is that I'm happier being this way. I'm happier just being myself and having some fun and just doing it my way. I'm so thankful that the most important people are just understand. I'm not saying that that's what they want, but at least they can understand it now. But yeah, that was the hardest thing, I think, for me.

That makes sense. Nick, you've been incredible, man. This has been why what I really appreciate about you is the genuine, authentic, raw, real answers. I can tell when I'm sitting with you, I'm listening to someone who's not... It's interesting in a press conference, it seems like you don't filter the combativeness. And today I'm like, you're not filtering to make yourself look a different way or appear a different way. You're just being who you are. And I really appreciate that because I think we all need to make sense of it. And I think a lot of us who are struggling with that feeling of not being enough or not living up to the expectations of our family or not having achieved the goals that everyone else thought we'd set out to, I think that's more of us in life than the people who go on to achieve everything. And the interesting thing is even the people that go on to achieve everything that everyone wanted them to, they're not happy either, because they often find that they went in one at things that they didn't care about. They lost themselves. Then lost themselves. I know that this is going to resonate with a lot of people, but as you know, we end every On Purpose episode with a final five.

These questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. Okay. And so nick, curious, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

It's never as good as it seems and it's never as bad as it seems.

Who said that? Where did you.

Learn that? Simon, he was one of my tennis coaches, and I feel like that was very tennis-specific because when I was on court, I had the talent to amaze millions of people. But I always went on court and tried to do that, where he was like, You don't have to do that. These people paid to come watch you play just because of how you just are. I always was like, Okay, maybe I don't have to try as hard. Then when I was playing bad, I used to think I was playing horrific. But then he was like, Your bad for most people is still amazing, so it's not that bad. Then I started carrying that to everyday life, like when I was having some really bad moments. Everyone thinks when they're going through a struggle, they're like, This is the worst part of my life. I'm like, This is not the worst part of your life. It's just going through a bad phase. That's why I'm never too high anymore with some amazing achievements. Finals of Wimbledon to most people is an amazing achievement, and it is. But I wasn't like, I carry my trophy everywhere with me.

I'm like, I made fun. It's an amazing achievement and it's in the past now. I think just being able to ride the highs and the lows the same. I think when you're able to do that, you can just navigate through life a little easier. That's actually the quote above the Wimbledon court is, When you can look at a victory and a loss the same way, that's when you've conquered life a little bit. I think that's like the final thing you see above the core as it's opening up. I'm not sure that's the exact quote, but it's along those lines. That quote there is very similar to that. It's never as bad as it seems, it's never as good as it seems.

Nice. I love that. Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?

It's not that simple. I don't like... I think about when I've had my success, I've eaten healthy, I've been active, and I've just worked hard. It really is simple for everyone. I think if you just break it down into nice simple categories, you're going to get the best out of yourself and you're going to have success, whatever that is. Success is different for everyone, but it's not that simple. The amount of times I heard that in school, from tennis coaches, from everything, if they told me it's simple, do these things and you'll probably get the best out yourself. So yeah, it's not that simple. I hated hearing it because it really was. To get in my position, it is quite simple. It's hard.

But.

The steps to getting it, it's actually very simple.

Yeah, it's not easy, but it's simple. Yeah, I agree. I would agree. Question number three: What's something that you've been trying to unlearn?

That's a hard one because I've had to unlearn nearly everything that I thought... Because I meet so many people. I'm not really following your rules of keeping it.

Short, am I? That's cool, man. It's good. They're good answers.

But a lot. I've met so many people and I thought I'd meet a lot of cool people and good, genuine people on the way, but I've been really disappointed. I feel like being in our position, it's hard. Every time you meet someone, you don't know if anyone genuinely wants to be your friend or hang out with you or go to dinner with you because we're good people, or do you want to just be around us because of... And that's just a common struggle, I think, that I deal with every day. I really do struggle with that because I'm a genuine person. I only want to hang out with you if I think you're cool and you've got a good heart. I think I thought that a lot of people... I'm trying to unlearn that everyone has good intentions. I felt like everyone should have that and everyone doesn't.

Yeah, and that's a hard one. That's a really hard one. I can resonate with that, too. I think sometimes it's really interesting. When you're... I feel like sometimes if I get along with someone or I feel like a natural sense of chemistry with someone, I can come on quite strong, but I'm just being who I am, and I'm okay with that. I'll be like to someone, Hey, we should hang out or whatever. I know exactly like that. I like living that way because to me, that's how I've made some of my best friends. If I wasn't like that-.

Yeah, you're always sheltered. How are you going to experience the.

Good times? Totally. I've opened myself up to then sometimes people are like, Oh, maybe he has something that he wants. I'm like, No, not really. That's just who I am. That's how I was raised.

I'm just fired and I just.

Feel good. Yeah, exactly. I can relate to that. All right, question number four: a rule everyone should break and a rule everyone should follow.

I prefer the follow one.

I think. Go on.

I don't know. I'm going to give that to you. I'm going to give that to you. I can't.

Answer it. The rule everyone should break? Yeah.

Actually, I can't answer it.

I've never asked it before. I just got inspired to ask it to you.

A rule.

Everyone should break. I'm just trying to think of rules that the world sets that we think everyone should break. Let me think of a rule. The way I would think about it is what are rules that we were all told, even unwritten rules, that we all heard since we were young? That now I look at it and I go, We should break that rule.

And you expected me to answer the question.

No, I want to give a genuine answer.

I know, but you're so the way you have answers to pretty much everything.

But I like to be thoughtful because literally I came up with that question right now just for you. It was a moment thing. I would say that an unwritten rule or a rule that I think everyone was told to follow was like, I feel like when you were growing up, you were told to fit in. Then when you get older, you're told to stand out. If you want to be successful when you're a kid, fit in. Wear the uniform, stand in line, do well in school. Everyone's told to fit in. Then as you get older, if you want to win at whatever career path you're at, you've got to be different. You've got to be authentic. It's like, wait a minute. Instead of fitting in or trying to stand out, the rule to break is to say, Well, I'm not going to fit in or I'm not going to stand out. I am just going to learn to discover myself. I think it's not even about being you. I think that's the cheesy answer of just be yourself. I don't think it's about being yourself. I think it's about discovering yourself and getting to know yourself.

The rule we need to break is stop trying to fit in or stand out. Just get to know yourself. I think that- just figure it out. Yeah, just figure it out is what comes to mind, anyway.

I like it.

Yeah, we'll go with that. You just keep flipping them back on to me. I like it. It's smart. It's a good tactic. It's good PR training. This is a master class in PR training from Dick. Fifth and final question. If you could create one law, we ask this to every guest of all time. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

Before you criticize someone, you have to do what they do for one day. So if someone criticizes my tennis game, they need to get on the court and try and play. Or if I was criticizing someone that I had to go, I think that should be a law. If you're willing to criticize, then you're going to be that person for one day and deal with everything that that person deals with.

That is a brilliant answer. I love that. We never had that on the show, and I love that. That would be amazing. If you actually became that person for a day, you had to swap lives. Anyone you judged or criticized, you had to swap lives with them for one day.

That would be phenomenal. And it's not like a holiday. It's like a business day. It's not like a party, like a Saturday night gone on. No, it's like the working day. Because then I would think twice. I've criticized basketball players, anyone I'd be like, Oh, you're all right. And then they're like, All right, do you want to do that day thing? Actually, no, I'm good. Because I think a lot of people in my position, they would freak out, I think. If I had to go out and play a match in front of the stadiums, then do the press conference and then deal with the criticism and had to feel the realness of it all, they wouldn't want to criticize again.

Yeah, I like that law, man.

That's a good law. It is a good law. Nick, curious. Nick, this has been such a joy and pleasure, man. Appreciate it. You totally over delivered. And for what it's worth, from the moment we started messaging to meeting you today to having this conversation, you're a genuinely nice guy, man.

I appreciate that.

Thank you. And I've enjoyed every minute we've spent together. Thank you. I look forward to many more. Thank you. Genuinely. It'll be fun. Yeah, it's been fun. Thank you. Thank you, man. Of course. If you love this episode, you'll love my interview with Kobe Bryant on how to be strategic and obsessive to find your purpose. Our children have.

Become less imaginative about how to problem solve, and parents and coaches.

Have become more directive.

In trying to tell them how to behave versus teaching them how to behave.

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We are combining hip hop lyrics and quotes from some of the greatest to ever grace a microphone. It's a line.

From Lauren.

Hill, and she says, don't be a hard rock when you really are a gem. Along with ancient wisdom from some of the greatest philosophers of all time. Seneca, right? And he says, Your mind will take.

Shape of what.

You frequently hold in.

Thought, for the.

Human spirit is colored by.

Such impression.

Listen to season two of the Street Stoic Podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Wilmer Valderrama, Executive Producer of the new podcast, Day My Abuelita First. Each week, the incredible Vikoortiz and fabulous Abuelita Lilliana Montenegro will play matchmaker for a group of hopeful romatics. Right, Viko? You know it. Listen to Day My Abuelita first, Thursdays on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Remember, don't do.

Anything I wouldn't do. Just do it better.